Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / Outdoor Element Founder Mike Mojica | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 42

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Outdoor Element Founder Mike Mojica | Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 42 · Beyond The Trailhead

• speaker-0: Alright everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead. Once again, we have an incredible guest on this week, Mike Mohica with Outdoor Element. Hey Mike, how are you? speaker-1: Great, great, thanks for having me on. speaker-0: Awesome, awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here. again, we just love chatting with different businesses ⁓ in the outdoor space. And I've known you for a couple years. I met you through Scott with a near zero. You guys are really good friends and met you a couple times in person at switchback and everything. And I think actually you were here, yeah, you were here in Atlanta one time. ⁓ we met at like a what do you call it? Bushcrafting kind of a conference kind of a thing. And I just love speaker-1: ⁓ Yes. speaker-0: ⁓ your the products and your enthusiasm is very contagious, first of all. So ⁓ I think just having you on and and have having everybody kind of meet you and stuff like that is great. But I guess before we start, I guess if you could just kind of tell us a little bit about outdoor element, ⁓ the history of outdoor element, and and then we'll kind of rock and roll from there. So ⁓ go ahead. speaker-1: Yeah, thank you. ⁓ so it started way back in twenty twelve actually. We've been around for a bit and we're still a small little business, really family operated. I had ⁓ I just moved. I was in the process of moving from Texas, grew up in Texas, Army brat. ⁓ at the time I was in aerospace and moving up to Colorado and I discovered that there was no chiggers or fire ants. Yeah and Very little on the humidity and just kinda like and beautiful backdrop. We have seasons, we have mountains over here. Yeah. ⁓ that was the year, you know, I s we started outdrawing as a side hustle. I was still working in aerospace, ⁓ at SNC, Sarah Nevada Corporation, great, great place to work. ⁓ and I rediscovered the outdoors, you know, and it was ⁓ for me I love design and I love the outdoors and it kinda like just kind of worked together. It was like, Hey, if I try something new, ⁓ Well it need it should be this. And that first year ⁓ that I moved there within a few weeks, my neighbor had asked me to ⁓ go hike a fourteener ⁓ with them. And I was like, Yeah. I mean I heard the word hike and I like, I'm all in. Let's do this. I love the outdoors, you know. And it's and it feels great out here. ⁓ my but my next question was like, What's a fourteener? 'Cause I didn't even know what that meant. We we don't have mountains so big in Texas. ⁓ at the trail end of I guess El Paso there's a little bit over there at the I guess the Rocky Mountains kinda end over there. ⁓ but ⁓ I was came from the D FW area and yeah, so he explained what it meant, you know, fourteen thousand foot above ⁓ sea level, the elevation, and I'm like, all right, let's do it. And so ⁓ we did Mount Yale and it was like a real key point for me as this was like the beginning about derailment. I had a couple of things happen to me ⁓ that really kind of solidified what I wanted to do with this company. Yeah. ⁓ the first was I was hiking up, ⁓ I was with like three other guys and we'd just passed ⁓ the tree line. So about twelve five is where we are, elevation wise. And I met this girl and she was on the way down. She went up for a sunrise summit. And so enjoyed the sunrise up there was coming down and she was just like hobbling down. You knew something was wrong. And so I got right in front of her. I'm like, Hey, hey, like, you're not okay. You know, and she's a little annoyed that I stopped her. ⁓ but I'm like, what happened? And she's like, I rolled my ankle really bad, you know, just I don't know, a half mile ago. And It's it's horrible. But she probably had like three and a half, four miles to go to get a trailhead. So I had ⁓ I actually have it here on my desk actually. ⁓ I had one of these self adhesive bandages along with some other stuff in my first aid kit. And so I made her sit down, I took off her boot, I wrapped her up and I put her boot back on and she was really grateful and we left. ⁓ and then I continued on this journey up top to Mount Yale and we got to the top. I think one of the guys could make it. He got a little elf dude sickness, and so I'm with two other guys and I'm like, I just conquered a mountain. You know, I'm like pumped and stoked and like and I I did some athletic stuff in college. Like I was competing with little bit of weightlifting and I played a little bit of rugby and I'm like, Yeah. And then all of a sudden I'm like, Why do I want to cry right now? I I just it became emotional for me. I to like tell the guys, I'm I'm gonna look at the mountain over here. Yeah. And I was just like, Whoa, like yeah, I feel like I had a little Moses moment, a little little peaceful revelation. Something was like it was deeper than what it was physically. It was like it gave me some awesome insight of like I need to do this more often. I need get outdoors way more often. And so my two takeaways were let's be prepared. Let's have something that's going to help you when you're on the mountainside. Something goes amiss. And then let's go find revelation. Let's get outside. There's peace to be had and inspirations to find ⁓ when you're outdoors. And as the gear I started outdoor I'm like came back down. I'm like, honey, like this I need to pursue this. And so Again, it's a side hustle of the time. I'm working for this great aerospace company. And I started making a couple of ⁓ of different items that we launched on Kickstarter. ⁓ to all you ⁓ young entrepreneurs out there with with dreams, like Kickstarter is still alive and well. In fact, we just finished a campaign. ⁓ but we did a couple Kickstarter campaigns, and on the second one, it was my fire wiener. It's a little fire starting carabiner. There's one like right there hanging up. Okay. And ⁓ Yeah. So we we I I we launched this campaign and I think we did like a hundred and thirty thousand in thirty days. And I was like, ⁓ people kind of get what I'm doing. This is interesting, this is fun. And that's when my boss approached me. He's like, Hey Mohica, like I've been noticing your campaign. Are you gonna quit? I was like, I don't know, boss. I I don't know, there's a site also right now. I don't know if I need to or not. And his name was Brad. He was awesome. He's also from Texas. I didn't moved up here ⁓ to the South Denver area. And ⁓ he sat me down one day and he's like, Look, like if this is your passion, like go chase it down. He's like, You will always have a place here ⁓ to to work. If it doesn't work out, like come back. We love what you're doing. ⁓ but if you need to go chase some dreams and like w we don't want to stop you. And so he gave me that safety net. I think my wife prayed for like six months, like, hold up, we have four daughters. Anyway, you have, you know, good benefits, good health benefits, right? And stuff like that. And she's like, And then you're gonna quit and we will have what as far as benefits. We're of no benefits at all, you know? And so can I do it? And she's like, All right, you can do it. So I needed her to be all in. ⁓ bef you know, before I always feel like, hey, this is a covenant relationship and we both gotta have that same vision. And so ⁓ yeah, so she essentially gave me that permission and I I jumped in. It was it was ⁓ it's probably been nine years since I quit the day ⁓ the the full time job to do this full time. And it's been great. I mean it's It's definitely been a journey. I can't say it's been all rainbows and sunshine or anything. ⁓ we've had a lot of hiccups. ⁓ I've had a couple of partners ⁓ that ⁓ just hadn't worked out. They have different life goals and so it's back to being a real family oriented small business. My wife w works here full time with me. My kids are like on the other side of this wall s stuffing fiber light right now and making some bracelets and just getting ready for some, you know, delivering some ⁓ some POs and some goodies ⁓ to our customers and so it's It's it's been great in that term. ⁓ but there's also some other other hardships that I many small businesses face and you know, we've had to deal with tariffs, we've had to deal with sometimes inconsistencies, ⁓ sometimes packaging issues. It's like all kinds of little things. Yeah. I yeah, we like to try to be like eco-friendly in all of our design work and everything. So most of our packaging is like has very little plastic. And then it's fun, you get things in from China and everything has a poly bag. Like I just ordered like Ten thousand items and then they have like ten thousand plastic sleeves. When I'm like, wait a minute, guys, I told you not to do this. And they're like, ⁓ yeah, we we're gonna wrap it in paper, but then we ran out. I'm like, No, we're not doing this. And so they've agreed since then, like, ⁓ we won't do that again. We're really sorry. I'm like, No, it's ri it it matters. I the customer won't ever see it, but I will and I know and and so I kinda let them know like what our, you know, ethos are, you know, like we love being outdoors, love being prepared, having true utility, but also being eco friendly. Like we we love the outdoors and we wanna be able to sustain them as long as possible. Yeah. And so you know, just a few of the little hiccups and opportunities to grow. ⁓ but there's there's been many, many more. Yeah. In a nut Joe, outdoor, yeah, we so we make survival gear. I I failed to actually say what we make. So if speaker-0: No, I got my I got mine. I told you I got mine right here too. speaker-1: Awesome. Yeah. So that's our Scout feather knife. It it won ⁓ best survival blade of twenty twenty five by Backpacker Magazine. And then we had a UK account ⁓ say that we were the best fixed blade, which was awesome. I love getting some accolades when I didn't even know they were looking at it. And ⁓ we make little ⁓ fire starting carabiners, some that break windows and cut through seat belts and then ⁓ just a variety of little camp ⁓ little accessories. Yeah. We don't make the tents, we don't make the backpacks, we don't make the big things. More on the small side, very, very mechanical. A a couple of ⁓ textile things. This is Charlotte Sweban hanging up behind me. So kinda a camp organizer. So ⁓ sometimes I dabble in textiles. I I have a minor in textile design. Nothing I ⁓ that's a different one. Yeah. Yeah. That's a you know, that's a good point that you bring up. So I'm I'm starting a little chocolate company and like I I was just reminded, like we are dynamic people, right? And it's some people see you and they like they kind of pigeonhole you into like this is what you do, you know. It's like into any individual. Like there is some dynamics. There are different things going on in people's lives. And sometimes we have different interests and hobbies. And that one spurred from me having some gut health issues and my wife kind of bring me on this journey of like, let's let's get healthy. And then one day I woke up and I'm like, Can I make chocolate healthy? And and I've had this little journey. So that that has yet to formally start. My I I I wanna say my formal start date will be November of this year. I want to go to a little trade show and introduce that. So we need to get I I got some domains ⁓ established, but I need to file for my EIN and like make a stab at that as well. speaker-0: That's cool. No. I I I like the fact that you're you ⁓ not diversify but it's funny, like you're you have a knife where you could stab and kill somebody, but then you also have chocolate that makes people feel nice warm speaker-1: This is not a stabbing knife kill people knife. Okay, just for the record. Like this is keep you alive in the woods. ⁓ if it's used for self defense, like that's beyond the design. So let's see it. Throw some sparks at you. I don't know. There we go. One stuck on the blade too. It's definitely so don't burn ass down. Definitely. Yeah. Definitely speaker-0: If I could do this in my office, if it's gonna on my desk made of wood. no, but I I wanted to kind of go back a little bit then ⁓ from when you from when you started what how long did you because I think a lot of people think that a business they they look at a business and they go, ⁓ this this business is massive. Like I just got off the phone with a company yesterday and you think they're a huge huge huge company and they are from the outside looking in but they're really ⁓ between 11 and and 13 employees. And that's still you know a a lot of people but It's small. And from in the outside looking in, people think, ⁓ outdoor element, like they've got all these things and stuff like that. But from from starting your business and working that full time job as well to when you quit, how long were you still working at that engineering job before you were you were finally had to kind of go, I need to go all in on outdoor element? speaker-1: Yeah, great question. I it was right at six years. Like it was it was a site also for a while and it I just decided it needed the full attention. Yeah. ⁓ to really give it some lift. And so it's yeah. It it it took long I in hindsight, maybe I wish I would have started earlier. Yeah. And actually in hindsight, I wish I started doing this stuff in my twenties. ⁓ but you know, ⁓ you live and you learn, right? And so you take I say take risk early if you were a young entrepreneur, like do it now. ⁓ when you have a mortgage and kids and ⁓ you know it's hard to yeah, it's a little harder than you'd hope, you know. So speaker-0: Yeah, but like w even what you said, I think we all kind of go back and go, Man, I wish I had started this. Everybody I talk to who started a business, they're always go, Man, I wish I had gone all in sooner than later. Cause they're like, Man, if I had two more years on what I'm doing now, how much further you'd be along and stuff like that. And I think it's cool that you have the family in it too. My our our company, we have basically it's it's my wife and I and our kids help out every once in a while. ⁓ But I guess going into that next part where you were talking about like some partners and stuff like that, without throwing them under the bus and everything else, but like what are some things, you know, that you were like, ⁓ bringing on a partner is good in certain ways versus bringing on a partner, what what were the the shortcomings of that? speaker-1: Yeah, no, that's a great question to ask. ⁓ so I'll I'll start with the first partner. I I'm a dreamer. Yeah. Right. The sky's always blue. I I have all these ideas. I c I come home from a long run. I'm like, honey, we're gonna change the world. I always have something I want to share. ⁓ and with my first partner, he was also a dreamer as well. And what I've learned ⁓ in the course of business is like it's best to align yourself with someone who complements your skill set. Yeah. You don't need the same skill set when you're forming a partnership for a business. You gotta look like what are what are my deficiencies? You know, who can complete me? And I've mentioned to ⁓ my my my second partner, like this is a second marriage, is what this was. Like this relationship has to work on a like a a new level and and we're gonna have disagreements and we have to have ⁓ the maturity to sit down and talk things out, right? And it's okay if we walk away agreeing to disagree, but we have to be able to communicate that. And so first partner, I just feel like ⁓ Maybe we're too much alike in and like dreamers and like I need an operator. I need, you know, I need f how do you figure out writing these POs? What and and at the time I had taken no ⁓ entrepreneurial courses or business courses. So I'm like, ⁓ how do you scale something? What's my runway? Like what what should like my landed cost be for this to be a sustainable business model? I all these little questions that I wasn't sure of. You know, I had great ideas. I like, ⁓ I dreamed this thing up, it's gonna be amazing. What should we sell it for? I don't know, you know. And so that's kind of where we were in life. And then the ⁓ the the big lesson learned in both of these situations is like like first date each other for a while. Don't just jump into something. Yeah. Like someone recommends so and so. Okay, let's do it. Like, no, you guys need a date. And w I I think I didn't date long enough with my second partner ⁓ to understand who he really was and what what you know what his expectations are. ⁓ and he was also a little older and in in ⁓ in that respect, like he has life goals. He wanna move on. And he wanted to ⁓ go go to China and teach English classes. I knew that was one of his aspirational goals, and which is awesome. Like it's great. And and and and initially we're like, hey, like let's build this thing. Let's build this thing for like, you know, three to five years and then sell it and move on. And I mean, I have a bazillion different ideas of what I can do. And there was always this like carrot hanging out, like, ⁓ Bass Pro is talking to us, ⁓ REI is talking to us, ⁓ we got this. ⁓ you know we won this accelerated program with moose jaw and so it kept like pulling us along but like dragging out this timeline and and what we did not have ⁓ with with both partners. You think you fell once you learn, but I gotta fell a couple times. That's that's who Mike Mulhicke like he's got to fell at least twice to really understand what he needs to tweak. And what I what I didn't what what I failed to do is like I really didn't have a a really solid agreement between partners. And then you have to abide by like the rules of the land, right? Like when someone leaves, what happens, right? Do they maintain equity? Do they not? Can I do I just write a check? And it's like all these things that like had we'd written out ⁓ you know, a a real operating agreement between partnerships and what a divorce looks like. Yeah. It it'd make life a lot easier. And because that's not there, it's like I'm I'm still working out the details right now. And and we don't hate each other, you know? It's just like it's not working out and that's okay, and it's okay if someone moves on and ⁓ I'm trying to trying to carry the ship and I've learned a whole lot. So I feel like I'm more ⁓ a lot more capable. And we've written out a lot of SOPs. That's another thing, guys. If you're a young entrepreneur, like like standard operating procedures, you write those things out and then you tweak them as you go. But you need to have this living document just in case someone comes in or someone has to leave, you have something with all the information there that you can fall upon. ⁓ and then hopefully that that becomes a nice training ⁓ asset you have when you bring on some new talent or you bring on your wife and you're like, Hey, follow these things. And so we had some rough ones. That weren't perfect, you know, a lot a lot of like, ⁓ you know, it's in my mind, honey, I know how to do this. And she's like, Mike, this this isn't this isn't good stuff. And I'm like, okay, let's go through. And so good lessons learned there. But yeah, it's it's hard. ⁓ and not every partnership works out. ⁓ in fact, a lot of them don't. So I'd say be used to that, you know, and and get those when when everything's great, when the potential there, everyone's it's a perfect time to have an agreement, right? So put things in writing and say, let's play the what if games. 'Cause Sometimes they happen. You know, it like doesn't work out. You need to separate and and that's okay and that's life and lots of learnings that happen there. But if you have it written out, like we know what's going to happen. Yeah. Then there's no questions, right? We we put that in action and we go forward. Yeah. speaker-0: No, that's good. ⁓ and ⁓ the the the standard operating procedures with your wife must be really good when yeah. I know I have the the same thing. I'm like I'm like, You do this and she's like, No, I'm gonna do this way. And I'm like, Okay, you do what you do. So speaker-1: And I'm always open, like, if there's a better way to do this, let's do it that way. Yeah. This is the way I did it. And then there's always updates too. Every time you like log on to something and like the screen doesn't look like the screenshot you did. I'm like, well, well, ⁓ that was two years ago. And like, and so it does need to be a living document. And and believe me, I think every entrepreneur, they're always looking for ways to ⁓ simplify and to make things just like a a smoother transition, right? So please let that be a living document. Don't let there be a a live and die document. speaker-0: So I I wanna kinda go into your product and before I go into like some O crap moments and stuff like that, this might bring up some O crap moments, but ⁓ you know, you you create something that's one, it's a knife, so it's sharp, right? And then ⁓ 'cause we we talk about this all the time when we have someone on who creates a a food, right? Is you once you start putting something in somebody's body, the legal stuff, you know, it's all kinds of craziness, right? And there's all kinds of different hoops you have to jump through with ⁓ approvals with the food and administration and stuff like that. But with yours, right, you have the knife part of it and then you have the fire part of it and stuff like that. So, you know, for people who are, you know, looking at creating a knife or have knife and st and and cutlery and stuff like that, are there any different things that you had you found out as you created the product? Because I'm sure you created it and then we're like, well, I I didn't realize I have to do X, Y, and Z because this product is a different type of product. speaker-1: Yeah, there's a few things. ⁓ first off, if you are a creator of a knife, just let just letting you straight know, like the internet hates you. And there are policies and laws against you. ⁓ Google, Meta, Pinterest, I think even Amazon, ⁓ they have things against anti weapons. You you are inciting violence in this land and therefore you cannot run an ad, right? And they're like, ⁓ that's a self defense mechanism, which I'm like, Hey, that's ⁓ that's not me. I do I do is like cutlery and I do knife w whittling and some preparation. And if if your product is designated at all as a weapon, ⁓ they have these anti weapon policies. And so if your landing page has a knife, it's like you'll get back blacklisted. I found this out the first time I ran a Kickstarter campaign for our it was the ⁓ Phoenix Talent and Phoenix Feather. They were it was a ⁓ a fill dressing blade, right? Like nice little belly on it and they had a little ⁓ anyway, it's a little caping blade and everything. And we s we set out our ⁓ ad campaigns and they ran for like forty seven minutes and they then they got shut down. I'm like, wait, what happened here? And they're like, ⁓ yeah, like I think it was like the year that Google actually implemented this policy and then when Google did it, everyone else did. And so ⁓ it's it's this interesting dynamic you have to like fit in. So ⁓ always designate your your knives as cutlery, you know, hey, you can use this in the kitchen, cut Cut your meat, your lettuce, whatever you want, you know, and if it's seen as a weapon, ⁓ then there'll be some anti ⁓ whatever your business is policies against you. And and I've had to face that numerous times. And I've gone around it too. I've worked with a couple of ad agencies want to run in a Kickstarter campaign 'cause I I haven't paid for an ad in like four or five years, unless it's a Kickstarter campaign. So we have a third party that will help us out and run some campaigns. And they're always really meticulous. It's like, Hey, this is Cutlery, and then they have to fight Meta or Google a few times. And I just step away. I'm like, you guys are the expert at this. I'm not, so I'll step away. And yeah, so that's hard. And then also shipping. ⁓ we discovered we when we ran this on on Kickstarter, we did really well. It was like $250,000 we did in in 28 days. ⁓ this and ⁓ and our what's that flat one called? I know, flip the flicker feather. So this is the scout feather, and then the ⁓ chisel grind is the flicker feather. If you're any birds out there, the northern flicker is a woodpecker known for its chisel beak. That's where it's a chisel grind ⁓ knife. And my dad is a little cabinet Tyler and he gets tormented by these ⁓ northern flickers. And so I named it after his nemesis because I thought it was funny and I like chisels. And so I'm like, anyway, ⁓ but what we found out was like there are many countries who do not allow you to ship knives, regardless if they're buttery or not. They're like, ⁓ it's a knife. And so We probably lost a few thousand dollars, probably three or four thousand dollars shipping out and then either it gets rejected or it just gets confiscated and then you have to return the money to the customer because they can't get it. Yeah. I'm like, I don't know your country's knife policy, man. Like, come on. Like, don't back my campaign if you know you I can't ship you a knife. And so, ⁓ it's there's definitely some hard learner's curve you go through, ⁓ when you're jumping in full all in, 'cause you're like in Kickstarter, you can have the choice of like Just ship in the US or ship worldwide. I'm whoa, right, baby. Let's do it. Whoa, right. We want people to know about us, you know. Then you run into these things of like, ⁓ we we can't ship to like, you know, thirteen of the twenty countries that bought from us. So ⁓ it's work with your ⁓ international like shipping ⁓ services, ⁓ UPS, ⁓ FedEx, ⁓ DHL, that they'll give you and or USPS too. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, it's speaker-1: though they'll give you all of those little policies that you should look up before you launch a campaign and then you then you can go designate, like turn ⁓ all on and then turn off these thirty countries and so which we will likely do in our next campaign when when we do a knife. speaker-0: That's cool. That's so interesting. I'm I was I'm blown away by well, I kind of I kind of you kind of I kind of knew, but I'm also like, okay, interesting that like you can't because again, I'm from Canada. So there's certain laws in Canada versus ⁓ here in the US now that I live here that I'm just like, ⁓ I had no idea. Like I I did a photo shoot for a gun cleaning kit ⁓ a few years ago. And this the photo shoot and the video shoot and the promo video and everything went was awesome. And then he comes back and he was like, Listen, I love it, but I he posted everything on Amazon and on his website. And now Amazon rejected it. So we had to blur certain parts of it. And then even blurring those, we had to blur more. And then by the time I was done blurring everything, I was like, What is this? Like it's just a man standing there going like this. And it's like so like, what is going on in this video? You know? So speaker-1: Yes. I I've heard of a campaign where a brand I don't remember who it was, but they had a folding knife and they folded it and it was ⁓ unfolded it and it was a spoon and they're like best spoon in the market. And then when you went to their actual website it was a knife, but I was like, What a fun way to go around and sometimes these policies create creativity, you know. And so I so I applaud that. I and but yeah, I totally agree. Like I in some countries you can't have a locking ⁓ blade, right? I think UK and Canada might be what two of those. And it's just like and then some are just link differences, right? And yeah. And so there's a bunch of policies that as a small entrepreneur, maybe that's where ⁓ using AI is actually beneficial. It's like, hey, I want to produce these are my specs. What countries should I not use, you know, a ship to? And then maybe we'll lay it out. So that'd be a good appropriate way to use some cloud or chat GPT. speaker-0: Yeah. I was actually watching, ⁓ I don't know if you watch, I'm sure you watch YouTube, but you know, some ⁓ YouTuber Hacksmith Industries. They make like usually like fun stuff and everything, but they since came out with like a there are engineering guys who make fun engineering projects, but then they started to make a a blade on Kickstarter that blew up. So then ⁓ it's called the Hacksmith blade or whatever, but they realized that shipping to the US, they're a Canadian company, and they were like, ⁓ we want to ship to the UK, but there's like this certain lock that can't be on it for some reason. And so they're having a hard time doing this. And I'm learning so much through that, going, ⁓ man, like the r you know, regulations are crazy. So it's it it you have to have like thick skin to go, okay, I'm I wanna create a product, I'll sell in my country. And then I realize do I really want to go international or whatever country I'm in, do I want to take it to another country knowing that I potentially have to now lose a bunch of money to not know if I'm gonna make it in in that market. You know speaker-1: Or make a different iteration altogether, right? So a a couple other little pain points I've had since we're talking regulations and things. So I started selling to my my ⁓ Canadian distributor and then Quebec has like really threw down the law of like we want French and English, right? And so they now now they can like go out and sue like the or or penalize the shops selling your stuff if it doesn't have equal weight. ⁓ and so I the I had our Canadian distributor a few months ago's like, Hey, I wanna put in this massive order and then they're ⁓ time out, mice. They're like, We actually have to change everything. You have to change your whole packaging. We can't do this 'cause 'cause of Quebec. And I'm like, ⁓ so trying to work through I So I I'm trying to use Chat GPT and and friends who speak French, you know, like, Hey, does this look right to you? And yeah. I don't know. And and and probably when it finally gets there the you know, Canadians are gonna laugh at this, like, Hey, that doesn't that doesn't actually work. But I'm like, you know what? I'm just trying to buy by your policies, you know. Hey listen. ⁓ speaker-0: No, I just going no hate on Quebec 'cause I'm from Ontario and ⁓ people from Quebec are amazing tippers. I used to work at a full service gas station and in Quebec you basically work off of tips and so when they would come into Ontario they would tip me like thirty bucks to pump their gas. But they ⁓ when I was younger there is this whole thing going on about like the f signs in Canada had to be bilingual, but then in Quebec they don't have to be bilingual and everybody was hating on everybody. And ⁓ we all have a big laugh, I think, between people from Quebec and then the English speaking 'cause everybody in Quebec basically speaks English. And I was just I was just there a couple of years ago. But ⁓ it's it's funny the back and forth that happens ⁓ between between the two languages and stuff like that. So speaker-1: Yeah, it the the other I guess warning I wanna put out there is California is like another country, guys. Like it I've I've been sued, I've lost, you know, I I settled. ⁓ in it paying ten thousand dollars to California, I think I paid my attorney three thousand dollars just so we can settle out of court. there is a prop sixty five ⁓ policy they have and basically it started with like lead in the water and they wanted to make sure that ⁓ the consumer is not ingesting or getting things that could cause cancer unbeknownst to them. And so ⁓ I I was told that my fire beaner I'm gonna see if can grab one real quick. Yeah. ⁓ I mean let me grab one real quick just so give you a look see. speaker-0: No, I think ⁓ every time I get a package it usually says it could be a can of air and it'll tell me that it causes cancer in California on the speaker-1: 100%. Yeah. So I don't know if we get this will capture or not, but we see that little spark. Yeah. Right. So ⁓ there's a little plume of smoke. I don't know if you saw that or not. So that plume of smoke ⁓ was determined that it causes cancer because despite a clean MSDS ⁓ material safety data sheet, ⁓ it said did not cause cancer. You know, ferrocarium does not and anything, all the materials we use to build this thing, ⁓ does not cause cancer, but the reaction, ⁓ does because that little pluma smoke now the law states that like it should be like with intended use. And so my intended use is like you're gonna take this and you're gonna start a little fire over here. And you're not gonna like doing one of these things but trying to bring in smoke every single time, right? And so my attorney's like, ⁓ we we have this case. We we'll win the case. Because yeah your intended use you're not like producing a a bunch of smoke when you're for with your product, you know, and it's but the problem was we had to take it to a third party lab. do all this testing, have a third party expert go and testify. And so my attorneys like, yeah, all we need is $120,000. And then we'll get this settled. No big deal. And I'm like, all we need is $120,000. Like, where where are we getting that from? Yeah. And and so I settled, ⁓ and essentially I had to put that little mark on there, you know, proxy five warning, cancer labor, ⁓ you know, cancer issues or possibilities there. And I feel like it it almost does a disservice. They're called Prop 65 bounty hunters. Like they there's these like six or seven people that like really prey on small businesses who don't f quite understand the law of the land. And I I called ⁓ the attorney general and I called a few attorneys in California and they just said, Welcome to California. This is what it's about it's all about was people do it all the time. Of the $10,000, fifty dollars went to the state of California. And the rest went to the attorney and who they'd represent and they split it between themselves. And so this is their full time gig. Wow. Like they're they're just preying on small businesses and going going through. And I think there's a rule if you have less than ten employees, they can't sue you. But if you sell in a shop like an Ace Hardware or an REI, they have more than ten businesses. ⁓ and then you sign an identification agreement when you sell with any wholesale account. And so they they're like, ⁓ we really wanted to sue REI and a ghost REI like, Sorry, they signed this identification agreement. And so you get to sue Mike Malika. And I'm like, so do you do you want to just put us out of business? They're like, no, just give us your money. At first they wanted like thirty K. And I'm like, dude, we're not doing that either. And so we settled around ten. And anyway, so if you're if you want to do business with with ⁓ California, no prop sixty-five. ⁓ there was a comment made yesterday. We we had a ⁓ handle product ⁓ which which allows you to like put holes on these canisters, right? So they're recyclable. someone's like ⁓ on Instagram. They're like, no one's gonna talk about the cancer warning. Like, why we wanna buy your product. I'm like, and so I did go explain what Prop Sixty Five was. Like, well, there is a part on my item that has brass and in brass there's trace amounts of lead. So please don't eat that adapter. And 'cause I don't want to be sued again. So now I'm overly cautious. Like there's no way it's gonna give you cancer. But just in case you swallow eight eighteen hundred of those things, it might give you cancer. You might have other problems too, right? ⁓ but but now you have all these companies that are overly cautious and putting proxies about in everything and so if everything has a warning, then really you lose the meaning. Yeah. So that's that's California. It's beautiful, but your policies bite. speaker-0: Yeah, that's crazy. It almost makes you go, maybe I don't want to get into big box if that is one of those things. speaker-1: Had I known beforehand, I mean I'd done my due diligence. I went in and looked everything up, ⁓ I'm clean. Yeah. No cancer causing items here. But I didn't think about the reaction. And then I I learned that if you sell firewood in California, it has to have that as well because you're gonna produce smoke with your fire, right? And so if you sell just the wood itself, it has a prop C five warning. And so i if I had if I had just known this beforehand, we would have been way more cautious. Like, yeah, ⁓ slap that label on there every single time. Yeah. ⁓ but me not knowing and hopefully this interview help somebody out there. I put the props if I've l ⁓ little label on there please and don't be sued like me. Yeah. speaker-0: That's crazy. So I guess going into what you just said about like being in Ace Hardware and stuff like that, ⁓ kind of shifting gears a little, how how was it? Cause I I'm I'm assuming you went D to C first, right? And then from there you've kind of worked your way into ⁓ some different retailers and mom and pop shops and stuff like that. So ⁓ you know, how was the process for that? What were like the the wins for you in that aspect? speaker-1: That's also a great question. So I I learned very on early on ⁓ my skill set was more in the design world. And I'm not ⁓ I'll I'll say this openly, I'm not an expert marketing person. And so because of that, I knew I wasn't gonna thrive in the DDC world in unless I brought out some real good in house talent or hired a third party marketing firm to help us out. And so my focus is ⁓ from day one, it was like how can we work with wholesale accounts, you know, B2B, right? Business to business. And so my marketing dollars really went into going to trade shows. Right. I met you at Switchback, for example, right? And so I've did OR for several years and then switchback and I've done a few other ⁓ specialty shows or or gift shows and really started winning those accounts. ⁓ Ace Hardware was different. I they actually found us through a Kickstarter campaign. And so there was a distributor who worked very closely with Ace Hardware. ⁓ it was the Gromit, which eventually got bought out by Ace and then eventually they killed it. But ⁓ when I launched that fire beater, ⁓ the Gromit approached me and they said, Hey, do you know who we are? And ironically, someone at work said, You should work with the Gromit and they're awesome. I'm like, Cool. And then a week later I got a call from the Gromit and they're like, Hey, we have close ties to Ace and we think your product, you know, is unique and we we sell this like we're we help them place unique items in their stores. Yeah. And I was like, Yeah, let's talk. And so that was just like grace of God type thing. It's like we we They made an intro to Ace and Ace is like, Yeah, this looks cool. And so I was able to go to Ace Direct Corporate very quick. Typically what you do is you walk into an Ace Hardware and they're all ⁓ independently run, ⁓ kind of like a franchise, right? And and so you can actually win one account with an Ace Hardware and work with that individual and just do PO's directly with them. ⁓ and then you grow that, you grow that area and then you'll go approach Ace Corporate. And and I've been to a an ACE has their own trade show. It's like 10 grand for a 10 by 10. So it's kind of pricey. Yeah. ⁓ but there's 5,000 Ace Hardwares. Like, so like the potential's great. The problem is you get into Ace Corporate and you go to their warehouse system. I call it ⁓ RSC is their acronym, it means something. I don't I don't remember. ⁓ and and so it goes to the RSC, their DCs, and then you still ha you're you still need to tell all the Ace hardwares that you exist. And so it did make it easier pitch. I would just randomly drive if I'm going to Like, hey, I'm gonna go Utah or go to wherever. Like, I'll I'll make my way like this instead of a straight shot to hit up the Ace Hardwares and say, hey, I want to introduce my product. And like, ⁓ I'm like, then I say, I'm in the RSC. They're like, ⁓ and then they'll look it Like, yeah, you sure are. And then again the pitch. So it was a lot easier to get into Ace Hardware once you're in the RSE. Now here's the vice. Like, so I'm in Ace Hardware, ⁓ Ace Harper Corporate. ⁓ can I just say I love Ace Hardware people? And then there's corporate. And I don't know what it is, but it is difficult to work with. Yeah they have portals in portals in portals trying to get information. And then I would get these ⁓ these paid invoices back with all these deductions. I'm like, what is going on here? So then I would drill down, get a create a new login for something, and drill down, create a new login for something else, and figure out like, ⁓ you said that like seven percent of my stuff was defective and that. I didn't ship you all of the product. It was lost, even though my USPS or my U UPS number says it was delivered. Yeah. Right. And they're like, ⁓ to prove that, you need to ⁓ it's give us the signed paper that goes away in 60 days, but then they pay you a net 60. And so you don't know you're supposed to go screenshot that now it's some archive from UPS and you to go like plead to them, can I have that? And and so it's always this little headache chasing money. I hate Chasing money. Yes. I just want to work with people who pay, right? And so I feel like I was chasing the whole time. And then I started looking at defective rates. And I'm like, hey, if I'm shipping you like thousands of carabiners, right? But I'm shipping REI tens of thousands of carabiners and their defective rate is zero and their return rate is less than one, like, how come yours is like 12? Yeah. 12%. Like, why? And and how come They've never lost one item, but you you have every single PO. So that was my experience. I'm not saying everyone else is like that with Ace Hardware. But this is what I was dealing with. And so a few months ago, I decided to turn off Ace Corporate. I was like, this doesn't make sense financially. I'm already dealing with heavy tariffs. And so combine that with like constantly chasing money and things being deducted out. I'm like, you know, it it doesn't make sense. And so I had to end the relationship with Ace Corporate, Ace individuals. I still work with Ace Hardwares. on an individual basis and it is a beautiful relationship. And so my my advice would be like work with individuals for a while and if you think it makes sense, ⁓ I think it was Rick Case ⁓ from the ⁓ founder of Night Eyes, he he gave me the advice, ⁓ especially with Ace. He's like, go read all the fine print first before you show ⁓ any numbers. He's like, maybe you need to adjust your pricing, which I didn't do initially, ⁓ because of all the deductions. He's like, once you understand what you're really gonna get paid, ⁓ didn't give the right price so you can be profitable because it only makes sense if everyone wins. Yeah. And I I wasn't quite winning with Ace Corporate. And so I had to turn that off, unfortunately. But back to the original question. I'm going to outdoor retailer, I'm going to switchbacks, I'm going to there's a Denver gift show, and there's just a bunch of little shows that I all go to to find wholesale accounts. And you get in front of people, like I design stuff and you sell stuff. So for me, that's a good marriage. Like You ha you know the art of getting in front of a customer and selling things, right? And and then there's an art behind your packaging, right? That's a big thing. Every single buyer is like, show me the packaging. That does the cons does a consumer understand what it is. And so I've learned that QR codes are very helpful. That's one of the blessings of COVID. Everything else is horrible about COVID, but US embrace QR codes, right? And said now I have a 30 second video if you scan it. And that tends to do really well with at least the buyers. Like, that's a great idea. I was like, that way if you don't know, you can scan it and do some in-house training. Yeah. It's a 30 second to one minute video. Or you can ask your cons you your customer come in and like, yeah, just scan that real quick. And and so that's been helpful. And so wanna make it pop. You don't want to blend in. You don't want to be the noise. You want to be the signal. So I would advise I went into like a bunch of Bass Pros and ⁓ dicks, I'm gonna all the like the Walmarts and everything to stores. I just looked at the ⁓ I I looked at all the packaging and I'm like I can probably design something and but I want to be a little different. And so I did my best to like did my own spin on it. And I've had a few people say that's beautiful packaging. Who'd you hire? I'm like, ⁓ this guy, because I can't afford to hire anyone else. And so ⁓ yeah. So you'll work wear lots of hats, obviously as an entrepreneur, and you probably know that better than anyone else. speaker-0: Yeah. No, that's great. I mean that's such great advice. Cause I love the for me doing the marketing side of things for years, I think hearing them that marketing point that you just made, like you just went in and looked around and were like, Hey, 'cause there's so many packages that don't stand out that, you know, you always watch Shark Tank or whatever and you see like, ⁓ this is great, but we need to change the packaging right away because it's just garbage. You know? And Walking in there and looking, I think I've said this once before ⁓ on the podcast is I had a ⁓ a couple one time they basically reached out to ⁓ people that I had shot a wedding for once before and they reached out to them on Instagram and were like, Hey, how is it working with Craig? 'Cause on on my website I have a couple of testimonials, right? But everybody's only gonna put their best testimonials. You're not gonna put when someone says something bad about your product, you know, even if it doesn't make any sense. You're not gonna put it. So I was like, ⁓ this is such a great thing. So they they went out, they DM'd like three or four of my past clients because we tagged them all. And they said, Hey, how really was it working with Craig and Nunjong? And all three or four of those people, thank goodness, and we've never had any problems with anybody, but they were like, ⁓ it was great and everything else. And they went and looked in another space. And I think for creating a product, especially if you're gonna have it on a shelf somewhere, or even to get ideas and everything else and to stand out. You go out there and look and go, okay, all these other colors blend in, but what color can I make that's gonna stand out? How can my packaging stand out? How can my product stand out? So it's not just on the web, because yeah, you might be selling online at first, but next thing you know, you might be in stores. And next thing you know, your product might just blend into everything else that's on an MCAP or or whatever. So I think it's cool. I mean, I love your packaging. I thought you had someone design it. So and I've I've talked to quite a few people actually. speaker-1: I appreciate it. speaker-0: that they've designed their own packaging and and I'm like I'm like, ⁓ you did that yourself? That's awesome. But then I've also seen other people that have designed it themselves and you go, I can see that you designed it yourself. Yeah. You know and speaker-1: Yeah, I ⁓ I was an art major for a year and so this it fills that itch. So I'm like, you know what? I enjoy this actually and and and it's probably not my most enjoyable moments because I love designing the product more, but when I get in the design world as well, as and as well as in, you know, color palettes and things, I'm like, this is kind of fun. And and there's also other things to learn about packaging. Like, hey, and my this is one of the benefits my old partner brought to the equation was like He's like, hey, you know, ⁓ in peg space, it's like we're talking about 1.5 inches and you just exceeded this, and now we can't fit another slot if we want to grow. And if we would just shrink this down, ⁓ then we could fit more products in in a peg world. And I'm like, I never thought about that. Yeah, you know, and so some products are actually designed around packaging, like, hey, what shelf space is this gonna take up? And so let's make the frizz be this big or let's make whatever the widget is this big and so it actually fits a appropriately, which I I never thought of as a designer of like, how's it gonna look on a shelf? Cause all I care about is like how's it gonna look in my pack and my neck on in use, right? But there's another stage before it actually hits the real world, it has to be on a shelf somewhere, right? And and that's ⁓ that's a a huge consideration people need to have. speaker-0: That's cool. So I guess be before we kind of close out a little bit, I guess one or two more questions I have for you is ⁓ if there's like a customer story, you know, or customer testimonial that kind of hit really hard, because I know you create a product that is ⁓ you know, from bushcrafting to ultralight backpacking and everything, we all need something to cut some cordage, start a fire. You know, for me, I go ultralight backpacking. Most of the places I go, I can't, I'm not even allowed to start a fire. Right, especially with all the fires going on right now. But yeah, I still need a knife. And I think that's why I mean, I know you have a lot of products, but I think that's why I like this specifically, is just because I know that it's got my wife actually just had this conversation with me last night or the night before before bed, randomly. And this isn't about a knife or or ⁓ ferro rod or anything, but it was just she goes, Hey, do you carry a compass with you? And I was like, No. And she's She's an outdoorsy person. She kind of just follows me as I go. And I was like, but I have a compass on my watch. I have a compass on my phone. I was like, I know how to follow the stars. I know how to follow the sun. And she was like, but you still need it. Like she was like absolutely admin that I must have a compass with me. I was like, I know how to build a compass. So like if if I need to build a compass, you know, I'll just pee in a whole hole and I'll make my own compass. ⁓ but ⁓ called bro. speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ speaker-0: But ⁓ you know, with a knife, like it's something that you need and I'm sure you have some customer stories where that are that probably hit pretty hard over the last f how many years. And so maybe there's one that you can kinda tell that really makes you kind of everyday go speaker-1: Can I share two quick ones? And oddly enough, both of them were not a knife, but it like it like warmed my soul. I was like, what? And so it was ⁓ one's with the fire beaner. I got an I got a message from a customer and she said that she went out on a canoe trip and she was gonna spend the night on some island, and she's like, right before she got an island, she actually flipped her canoe and she was like, and my dry bag was a hundred percent filled with water. And she had big lighter, striking run matches ⁓ in that bag. And she's like, ⁓ I'm not gonna be able to eat tonight. This I'm gonna just go back. And then she remembered like this was just on her keys. So it also got wet too. But it was like ⁓ but she's like, ⁓ wait up and she had a a pocket rocket and MSR makes most of their stoves with no piezo starter. And good luck starting that if it got soaking wet anyway. But she like took it and she's like, Okay. And it just like lit right up and she's like, I ate because of you. Yeah. And I was like And I was like, you know, maybe it's like maybe eight months after we launched the product. So I was like, I'm doing something right. Yeah. Like I just fed somebody. You know, this is great. This is this is my hope and joy that someone utilized it in a way that was like really useful. It wasn't just like a backup, right? Which and and so I was like, yeah, we're man, can you write that in a review? I don't think she ever did, but I was just so excited to hear that. And by the way, I used a third party review thing on our like and our ⁓ website. And so I can't control what's The bad ones are good ones. ⁓ but ⁓ most of them are good. So I'm grateful that. The other one was this. I had ⁓ our Grand Canyon account reach out to us and they explained ⁓ that their campers were using one of those traditional green Coleman ⁓ one pound propane canisters and that perhaps they didn't use it all the way and they threw it away. We're not supposed to throw away or recycle unless they've been pierced, right? And they they threw it away and ⁓ ended up in a big garbage truck and then when it did the whole compacting thing, it pierced it, caused a fire, and they could not empty it in time. Protocol says dump it out on the road, fire department comes, puts it out. But they couldn't do it in time. And so the guy just bailed and then they lost the whole vehicle. And I asked the buyers like, hey, I don't even know what one of those trash trucks cost. What is that? Yeah. It's like it was a half a million dollar loss. And she's like, and that's why I'm on the phone with you right now, because My director told me we can't have this happen again. And I know you make handled. I know you make this product which allows us to pierce these canisters. And this is one of those unsung heroes. Like when you think out the raw element, most people aren't thinking like, ⁓ I want a pot gripper, right? Yeah. But I really feel like it solved a major problem that most of us don't know we have. I did a survey, eleven hundred people took it, and sixty-six percent of people said they didn't know they're supposed to poke holes in those canisters. The small isogutane or the larger ones before they toss them. And so I'm like, ⁓ and so I I'm creating this dialogue, this conversation. I'm hoping people ask, like, what the heck is that dongle for? Like, that's usually not on a pot gripper, right? Then it creates that conversation on the con ⁓ the campfire and it prevents those fires. I love a fire, right? Fire is life-saving, life-taking, right? And we have to remember it's life-taking. And so we need to treat it responsibly. And this is kind of my stab at like, hey, it was also my pain point. I had a a bucket of ⁓ of used canisters. Intuitively I'm like, I shouldn't throw these away 'cause it's probably caused a landfill fire, which is that's where most of the fires are made in landfills, which is awful because it's a ho it's a orbal chemicals and it's a waste of resources. We're sending up the fire department ⁓ to put a landfill fire. ⁓ but I'm like, hey, like it solves that problem where I can poke holes in canisters, not burn myself. How many of us have burned ourselves on those integrated handles on those, you know, those canting ⁓ pots? Like Admittedly I have because I'm an idiot. I'm like, forget, like, ⁓ it's just a heatsink. I grab it, I'm like, I know better. I I I've we studied this in school. Why do I keep grabbing it? Right. And and so I was able to make this device. And then when I had that buyer contact me and ask from like, Okay, you get it. This is great. Yeah. We still most of us don't know. I've discovered I continue to run to people who like I work at fill in the blank dicks, REI, whatever. And I didn't know that. I'm like, Yeah, that's the problem. We should. And so I feel like I solved the problem. ⁓ that that we don't realize we have and ⁓ california actually banned the use of these I think starting next year because they're such a hazard. Yeah. That's I back to California. I actually called up the Newsom office and we contacted every single state senator and I explained we have this patented tool. It's already sold in REI sold in some Ace hardware. It's already in your state. You don't need to ban these. And they were like That's a really good idea. But we worked really hard on this bill and it fits our platform. So it's probably gonna pass. Yeah. Which it did. And I'm like, ⁓ but hopefully the rest of us don't follow the same suit as California. I love getting outdoors and having the ability to like let's get warmer, eat eat for not a great, you know, it didn't cost much for one of these things, right? I can cook several meals with it. And ⁓ let's not limit the outdoors. Like they're forcing people to buy these more expensive takes that are refillable. So refillable. ⁓ And so I I applaud the innovation, but I'm like, you're also limiting those who are kind of on a tight budget. And so that's that was my take. And anyway, so I I like creating things that have true ⁓ utility, true innovation and multi-use. That's kind of my MO. If you look at my my product, like we just mentioned the knife, way to cut, what make fire, and a way to signal at all times. Like compact, lightweight, ⁓ but it's great to get that feedback. Last night I was doing a whatnot and we had like five people say This is my favorite knife. I'm like, ⁓ you're back. This is awesome. So it's always good to, you know, as entrepreneurs, sometimes we get down ourselves, things that things think that things aren't gonna work out. And then it's always great to get this customer feedback and say, like, I like what you're doing and kind of re-invigorates the soul. I'm like, let's go do this. speaker-0: That's so cool. No, I I have a tub in this room that's got like a bunch of those green cans that I'm always like trying to use all of it before I I I'm like, okay, they're just sitting there. Half of them are like, you know, there's like a thirty second of ⁓ the can left and I'm just like whenever I'm gonna go car camping I'm just gonna try to use it all up. So that's good. I actually w one time so you know the the regular isobutane cans, right, for like the little mini stoves and stuff. I was camping with my wife and we bought two cans, two of the small, small cans. And one of them, once I used it, the little ball bearing in there that kind of seals up when ⁓ you take the take it off, it was leaking. And so I'm in the tent and I'm like, I've never had a can leak and I didn't know they could leak. And I'm in the tent, I'm like, something smells. I had the bag and the vestibule we had just finished eating and I had taken it off and stuff like that. And and I'm like, what's that smell? And I'm like, ⁓ my gosh, I hear like, you you're lying down, it's dark, you hear I'm I hear something and it's just light. And so now even when I go to like a hotel or anything else and I've finished my trip or something and I've got like a night at a hotel or something, I'll just go ahead and puncture that thing and just make sure that it's good to go either in the recycling or the trash just so I can get rid of it. 'Cause I don't want to be sitting in a hotel and it leaks because I had no idea they leak. So they speaker-1: Totally. They do leak. And you know what? That's another point I want to bring up. The propane canisters, many people will refill them. Right. Which I'm not opposed to, but the seals they break down after about three years, according to the OEM manufacturer. And I met a guy who had no eyebrows because they leaked. And so he's like, he's like, I was ice fishing. I had a buddy heater, and I had two of these in my bag that I always bring. And I'm the guy that refills them because he heard he overheard me talking. So he came to my booth. He was like, No, they do leak. And his eyebrows are like slowly growing back. And he was like, Yeah, I went to like my buddy he'd went out. And so I grabbed the bag and I just unzipped it really fast and it's static discharged. And he's like, and it just flash burned in my face. He's like, I was wearing sunglasses, but it just removed my ⁓ wow, my eyebrows. He's like, So he's like, Tell your customers they do leak. You're not just telling a story that I'm the guy. And so yeah, and so yeah, I I'm I get a little I tend to burn it out. I'll have my little stove with me and I'll just like set it out on the balcony. I've done this at at several hotels when I'm at doing shows. Yeah. And I'm like, ⁓ there's a tiny bit left and I'll just like burn it all out and I'll I'll pierce it and yeah, throw it to recycle. But totally agree with you. Like they it can be a little dangerous. Like let's let's be careful. speaker-0: When I'm when I'm in a hotel and I'm using my stove to like cook a quick h cup of coffee or something, I always think like someone's walking by thinking. speaker-1: Got no back. You also use your stoves in your hotel? I thought I was the only guy. So I'll cook some ramen noodles up, you know, and Noel's like, What do you do? And I'm Man, we gotta we have a camp kitchen here. Let's do something with it. I love it. speaker-0: Always. Exactly. Exactly. All right. So I'm gonna this is the last question and then we're gonna kinda run into our lightning round where I just kinda ask you a few quick questions. ⁓ but what's one advice that you would give for someone maybe on the trailhead at the beginning of their business on you know, creating a product or service in the outdoor space? speaker-1: I would I I mentioned this before, define write it in paper. You know, what are your skills, your true what do you shine at? ⁓ and then recognize do I need a partner? And then when you get a partner, like make sure that fills the gaps and have a real solid agreement. Like it's it's hit me twice, I won't do it a third time, but please like know yourself, right? And also know like you will have lots of downs. Like ⁓ Many people looking out, you know, looking out, looking in, think like, ⁓ they live in the the the dream. Like a dream is often a nightmare. Like you you I think you need to be an optimist, right? Listen to some good books, listen to have some therapy sessions with some good friends, ⁓ but know that it's not just s sunshine and rainbows. Yeah and be prepared to hit some lows. But what you're doing is worth it. I really feel like ⁓ my personal belief is like we have a great creator and so creativity is in our DNA. And so when we create I think God smiles upon that. I think we all humans are meant to be creative. I don't care if it's on an Excel sheet or creating new gear. Like be creators. I there is joy that happens when we create. So continue being creators. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, thank you, Mike. And if people are looking for outdoor element, where can we find you? How can we buy anything from you? What's the easiest way? speaker-1: Yeah, outdoor element dot com is our website. We're also found on Amazon. We're sold in most of the RAI shops. We're like in a hundred and thirty specialty shops. So be in the lookout. If you're on some trailhead that has a outdoor gear shop, go in and check us out. If they don't have it, say, Hey, you should carry outdoor element. That'd really help me out. And then we're I think in nineteen national parks. ⁓ so we're we're out there. ⁓ w we're smaller gear, so yeah, look for us. But we are there. Like but outdoor element.com probably the easiest way to go. ⁓ Always will ⁓ willing to ship out. speaker-0: Awesome. Well, great. I and I love seeing it when I see your product or when I see anybody that we have on the pod and I see their product, I'm always like, I walk up and my kids are like, don't you know that person? And I'm like, yeah, we know that person. Like, that's their product. ⁓ my gosh, that's so cool. They're like, that's that cool product that we talked about. So well well, thank you so much. So we're gonna go into our lightning round. I'm gonna ask you a couple of quick questions, just get to know you a little bit more, ⁓ and then we'll just kind of wrap up from there. So I guess favorite question, first thing is always just what's your favorite national park? speaker-1: Whoo, I got two that go back and forth. I love Bryce Canyon. Yeah. And I love the Redwood National Forest. ⁓ there's nothing like Bryce. You got these crazy hoodoos pressing this like red rock and then this this these beautiful pines, so the greens pressed against it. And it's kind of like out of the way national park. And so it's not currently overpopulated. A lot of these parks are just stuffed with people and you get a hike in three to four miles to really enjoy it. This one it's like you're there and it's like bam, crazy hoodoos. The redwood forest, man. ⁓ very top of California, ⁓ there's just some like sacredness. You know, I we went into this grove of trees that are like the family of six couldn't go around. We I think we went halfway around one tree, and it's like you walk into this grove tree that's 2,000 years old and they have these massive ferns and it feels like you're in Jurassic Park and you feel so insignificant all at the same time. There's something powerful. I was just sharing this story with like a group of people like I was like remember walking in into the ⁓ into this grove and then suddenly we're whispering because it just felt sacred and we're like we don't even know why we're whispering. But it was like this very peaceful moment. So that I've never seen anything like it. I haven't been to Sequoia National Park yet, but that's one of our yeah you know on the bucket list we need to hit up. But those two parks are really special places for us. speaker-0: Awesome. All right. Next is ⁓ tent, hammock, or cowboy camping. speaker-1: ⁓ ten. speaker-0: Tent. Yeah. Most people say tent. I would love to I would love to cowboy camp more. But every time I go to try to cowboy camp, me and my daughter were just at North Dome in Yosemite. And I was like, ⁓ the weather's perfect. Let's just camp outside. And she's like, No, a a like a bug's gonna come land on my face. And I was like, Okay, well let's leave the rain. Yeah. And then we're like, Let's leave the rain fly off. She goes, No, because then I feel like someone's staring at me while I'm sleeping. And I was like What? So speaker-1: Spider would just call in your mouth. ⁓ so I in Texas, it's common, right? Just sleep outside on the stars. ⁓ I I distinctly remember doing this one time. I was with a a bunch of guys and I I ⁓ slept outside and it was like the one night it froze, right? ⁓ so I'm freezing. I also like didn't have a sleeping bag and my buddy said he was gonna bring one, but then it didn't happen. I'm like, ⁓ who cares? And I had like this lightweight jacket, and so I wake up just freezing cold. I'm like, This is not the way to enjoy camping. So I I tried it a few times. In the tense the best way. speaker-0: Next question is favorite trail snack? speaker-1: So great question. ⁓ I turned into a kind of a ⁓ naturalist. I used to I'm a runner too. I've run like a hundred miles and stuff. And then my buddy started eating like grits, crackers, and like peanut butter balls and stuff. And so I I like something like a little bit of nuts with a little bit of chocolate 'cause I want the salt and occasionally, you know, the sweet. And so I fall in that category. I used to eat all the chews and stuff and now I think they're kinda gross. But ⁓ that combined with some jerky, I'm a happy guy. speaker-0: Nice. And what's your worst trail snack you've ever tried? speaker-1: ⁓ worst trail. ⁓ there's a f there's a few like I don't wanna throw them on a rug, but goo, like G U, like the those like like I need hit of energy. ⁓ like the chocolate is okay and but when I go with like the fruit flavors, I think they're hideous. It's like I have to choke this thing down and they burn your I'll use them a when I go speaker-0: Wha when I take them they my throat is like on fire. I'm like chugging water. I know you're supposed to chug water with it when you take it, but it's like it's like a throat burner. speaker-1: Yes, it is. It's something that's I think ⁓ it's small and it has like enough calories, like this is this is good. You know, I'll put these in my pack or whatever. And then I'm taking it, I'm like, I hate this. Yeah. So sorry, Goop. speaker-0: Next question is biggest ⁓ splurge you've ever done for your business. speaker-1: For the business? Yeah. ⁓ getting into this warehouse, that was a scary thing and an ongoing splurge. I don't know if you mean by I don't know if I constant a splurge or not, but I'm like paying overhead rent is scary for a small business owner. But we had like we're two guys, two basements at the time, and it was just like packed to the gills and My wife and his wife was like, ⁓ are we eventually get our house back? And then we found this place, which ironically is the same building I used to work in in my eight to five. They moved and built a bigger campus and I'm in the same warehouse that I used to work in. So kinda cool. speaker-0: That's crazy. All right. Next question is and I I always like this is one of my favorite questions is if you could col collab with any brand or create like a a a product that slap their, you know, their label on it with yours, what would that company be and why? speaker-1: Hmm. Good question. ⁓ I've done a couple collabs. I've done some with Wazoo Gear. This is their ⁓ their necklace. ⁓ they make a fire card for us. And I'm doing one right now with P and W Bushcraft. ⁓ they're they're making this travel tray. I'm fascinated with their travel trays. And it's it's awesome. So now we're now ⁓ the Prometheus pen is in there, and then I and I then I collaborate with Right in the Rain. You know, I've I feel like these guys complement what we're doing. And so ⁓ PW's holding our product, right? And then right in the rain that allows us to use it on there. And so I kind of hit this sweet spot where they did two collaborations at once with their Kickstarter campaign. ⁓ but it it it'd be interesting. ⁓ right now I'm talking to a chef and we might might want to get together and and collab with a knife and like really make a chef knife. Yeah. ⁓ but I think there's so many opportunities. I think of I think of MSR Cascade Designs. ⁓ is is an amazing company that I would love to work with. I've met with them a few times and like, man, if we were doing a collaboration, come come talk with me because you guys are making stoves and I'm starting them. You know, and so I I'd love they would like, you know, raise their eyebrows and go, let's go do this. Yeah. Then also Soul, Survive Out No Longer is may as owned by venture ready brands. I think there's a lot of synergies to be had ⁓ between ⁓ me and them. And so I don't know if I give you one answer the spot. Sorry, there's two or three. ⁓ but it's it's and I think that's one of the keys of Of like ⁓ surviving in this world in this climate right now is like let's collaborate and let's celebrate each other. If we know of two companies that there's some synergies there and not complete just, you know, competition, then like let's do that 'cause that'll just introduce your audience to their audience and vice versa. And it's like, you know, rising tide, right? R let's raise both ships. speaker-0: That's cool. All right. Last question. And this might be just your wife describing you, but what's one word that your employees would use to describe you? speaker-1: I'll use a hyphen overly optimistic. speaker-0: No, that's that's literally speaker-1: It's all gonna work out guys. It'll be fine. speaker-0: When I meet you, I'm like, Okay, everything's great. And like like I I'm very optimistic as well. And my wife really you know, like like you were talking about with having partners in the business and in marriage too, it's kinda like when you're down, they're up. And when they're down, you're up. It's like that whole like thing. And I'm like, ⁓ I'm having a great I'm having a great day today. And not not that we're always one's down, one's up, but you know, when usually when one's really down, the other one's like, ⁓ yeah, everything's gonna be okay, you know? So, ⁓ That's cool that you're optimistic. So ⁓ well, great. Thank you so much. I mean, it was I learned a ton just about knives and that whole the partnership part of it and the shipping part of it and everything else. And I think that a lot of people that are, I think, in the space are, you know, garage-sized ⁓ companies are are learning a lot. And even big companies, I think, still learn from the the little guys, so to speak. So I mean, Mike, thank you so much for being on everybody. ⁓ if you're looking for a survival item of any kind, check out Outdoor Element. And ⁓ we look forward to the next podcast. Thank you so much for being on and we look forward to ⁓ the next week. speaker-1: It was a pleasure. Thank you, sir. I appreciate the time you gave me. speaker-0: Awesome. See you. Take care.