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Michael Bungay Stanier: Self-Coaching Your Way to Bold Success · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Today we have Michael Bungay Stanier.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Michael is best known for his book the Coaching.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Habitael is best known for his book the coaching habit, which is the best-selling book on coaching this century and is considered a classic, with over 1.2 million copies sold and more than 10 000 five-star reviews on amazon.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: I have to just pause there, because that is an incredible feat, and I don't even know if you knew like we'll get into it, but like did you know this was going to hit that sweet spot?
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: I wish I did, because I could then repeat it, but I know we'll get into this.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: But the story behind the story is that it got turned down by a regular publisher six or seven times.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: So I self-published it.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: So it's so.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Not only have I had the success and impact, but I also get to feel pretty smug about the whole thing as well.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: So 100%.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: In 2019, he was named the number one thought leader in coaching and in 2023, he won the coaching award from Thinkers 50.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Again, the Oscars of management.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: An incredible feat, thank you.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: He was the first Canadian coach of the year has been named a global coaching guru since 2014.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: His most recent book is how to Work with Almost Anyone.
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: It shows us how to create psychological safety by building the best possible relationship with key people at work.
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: He founded Box of Crayons, a learning and development company that has trained hundreds of thousands of managers to be more coach-like in organizations from Microsoft to Gucci.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: He left Australia about 30 years ago to go be a Rhodes Scholar at Oxford University, where his only significant achievement was falling in love with a Canadian.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: He's a compelling speaker and facilitator, combining practicality, humor and an unprecedented degree of engagement with the audience.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge, so we'll jump right into being bold.
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: What is your definition of bold?
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: What does it look like in your world?
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I knew you were going to ask that question, so it immediately brought to mind one of my favorite quotes bloody bold and resolute laugh to scorn the power of man.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: And here's where I go with that.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: I think boldness involves a really clear saying yes to something and also a really clear saying no to something Like your yes is nothing if it doesn't have clarity around what the no is, because anytime you say yes to anything with meaning, you're saying no to other things, other commitments, other people.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: So I think if you're able to say, look, this is it, this is what I'm going to say yes to, this is how I'm going to take it to 11, to move from Shakespeare to Spinal Tap, and also understand that you're also saying no to things.
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: That feels like boldness to me.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Right, I love that.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Just the word that kept coming up as you were talking was commitment.
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: Commitment to yourself, commitment to your move, commitment to your decision, commitment to your learning.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: Whatever it may be in there, that's what it is, and what you're saying yes to means you have to say no to something else, right?
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: so that's why the shakespeare quote be bloody bold and resolute yeah like.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: Boldness is there in the middle, resolute is the, the stick to itness of it.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: That's the commitment that you're pointing to.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: The bloodiness for me is to know that when you're bold, you will disappoint people.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: There will be people who get let down, people who get disrupted, because boldness is, in part, you stepping towards future you.
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: It's like present you, future you, and it's like this is future you showing up.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: And there's a bunch of people who are very committed to you continuing to show up as present you.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: They like it and, quite frankly, there's a big part of you that's very committed to showing up as present you.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: The status quo has much stronger call on us than we realize, and I think boldness is about this.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: You know willing to disrupt who you are now so the next best version of you can show up in the world.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: I love that.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to jump into that.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: So, when you think about being bold and resolute and thinking about that definition for you, what was a moment that comes up for you, A bold move?
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Well, I feel like I've had a number of moments where I've taken a deep breath and gone and gone.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, this may work.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: It may not work because part of what you learn and try and learn as you get older is around.
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: You commit to a process and you realize how little the process has to do with the outcome.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: You know the outcome will work or not work, but you know, one of the important moments of my life was winning the road scholarship, becoming a road scholar and leaving australia and coming to england and oxford to study.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: It was this crossroad moments where everything changed for me, because I showed up and it meant that I couldn't continue studying as a lawyer and I met my wife and all sorts of great things happened.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: So it changed my life.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: And just winning a Rhodes Scholarship is a high status thing, so that changes your life as well and how people perceive you yeah.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: But you know, when I was in that the first thing that happened is I'd applied to be a Rhodes Scholar two years earlier and hadn't even made the first cut, the first interview cut, which was a bit demoralizing because I'd been told that everybody makes the first interview.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: So I then applied and I didn't get a first interview.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I'm like man, I must have sucked badly to not even pass that threshold.
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: But I spent two years kind of a licking my wounds and be trying to get ready for a better application.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: And then when I applied, I got into the, the interviewing round, which is very exciting.
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: But then I looked at who I was up against.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: I was like man, these people are.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: These people are smarter and better than me.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: You know, they're university medal winners and there's an Olympian there.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: So I was like I can't compete on their grounds.
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: If I'm trying to be smarter than them, I lose.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: If I'm trying to be more athletic than them, I lose.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: So, come the day, come the moment, everybody showed up and they were wearing the kind of the power suits of the moment.
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: So this is like in the 90s, I guess.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: So people, men were blue suits, white shirts, red ties.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Women were blue blazers and white blouse and pearls, and I showed up with like long blonde hair, dyed my hair, wearing all my earrings.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I had a purple kind of burgundy jacket.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: I had a pink tie, dyed, tiedyed tie.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: I was like this is it?
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: I either come last or I come first in this, but coming in the middle is no good for me.
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: So either people look at me and go he's betting on this best version of himself, and we're going to bet on it too or they're like you're totally inappropriate for this.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: And that was the bold act that opened up not becoming a lawyer, marrying my wife, which has celebrated our 29th wedding anniversary, and in the end, you know that series of dominoes that created the life I have today, which is a great life.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: So that one bold move, that one bold act to really bet on yourself to say I'm going to be me, I'm not going to wear the blue suit, I'm going to go burgundy with some tie-dye.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: I'm going to wear my earrings, gonna let my hair fly.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: You know so, from that perspective, what gave you the confidence, or you know what was behind your bold move, in the sense of that you believed in you that much well, partly is.
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: I just seem to have been born with an inherent confidence and self-belief.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Like I sign off all of my emails you're awesome and you're doing great.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I get lots of nice feedback from that, because people love to hear that yeah.
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: I have a kind of internal self-message, which has only got stronger as I practiced it, which is like, fundamentally, I think I'm awesome and I'm doing great, even when it's all going badly wrong.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Because part of the danger of me telling the story of becoming a Rhodes Scholar is it sounds like when you be bold, good things happen to you.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: And I could tell other stories of being bold and betting on myself and it didn't work.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: I got totally ignored, I got overlooked, overlooked, the thing failed.
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, a much larger collection of those stories than I do, of the bold stories that paid off.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: But the bold stories that paid off made the big difference, like the other bold story is, you know, self-publishing, the coaching habit, having had it rejected seven times by a mainstream publisher and it's now sold 1.2 million copies and created profile for me so that people like you go.
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: Can I have you on your podcast because you know whatever you're awesome yeah yeah, exactly so.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Um those bold moves don't work, but when they do work, they work really well yeah, it's like the ratio of one bold move that works to like 20.
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: That don't right you know, it might be higher or lower depending on what you're doing or what, what you're into, but I think that's been my experience and I think what's been interesting and I, you don't think about it when you're doing it at least I never did before.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I kind of started my business but I don't go, oh, I'm being're doing it At least I never did before.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: I kind of started my business, but I don't go, oh, I'm being bold right now I'm going to hashtag bold this move or what it was like.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to believe in myself.
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: I'm going to learn, I'm going to step into fear or discomfort and I'm going to figure it out because I know whether a change is needed, or I'm curious, or I just want to do something to the next level.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: I just want to figure something out that's just not, you know, figureoutable right now.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: And those are all bold moves.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: And, yeah, there is a ratio of success to failure, and I think it's what you do with the failures.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: Like you know, you had that moment with the Rhodes Scholar that has led to these other incredible moments in your life, and I think it's also important to point out the ones that don't work that you also learn from, and they're both as important, would you agree?
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: I think so, although I think one of the things that I do is I do some version of risk analysis.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, of course.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: That makes it sound like I'm smarter about that than I actually am.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: But I do ask myself the question often what's at risk here?
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: And there's always stuff at risk.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: It tends to be some version of money, some version of time and some version of reputation.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: So how much time are you willing to bet on this and lose that time?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: And for me, often I'm like, if I care about it enough, I'm willing to give it the time because even if it doesn't work, I'm going to become smarter or something's going to happen.
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: There's going to be some outcome.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Money it's like you gain it, you lose it.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: You need to know how much you can risk and that can be a very clear decision.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: The very, very, very first book I ever published I self-published and I'm like I'm spending the $30,000 I inherited from my grandfather on his death and I assume I won't get that $30,000 back Now.
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: I did in the end, but I was willing to lose $30,000 because it's like found money.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: I'm like great, we're going to take the gamble on that.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: And then, in terms of reputation, you know you can get smarter about reputation management, but it turns out almost nobody cares about your reputation, particularly if it's like this is a good, honest failure.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: They care about you if you're corrupt or mean or whatever.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: But you know in terms of a reputation around, I've accumulated some really good stories from the failures I've had.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: That often enhances your reputation.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: So, broadly speaking, I have found for me, bearing in mind, that I've got you know, I hold lots of privileged cards tall, white, overeducated, straight man speaks English.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: All of that.
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: There's less at risk for me, so I understand what I might be risking and that gives me some of the courage to go.
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll give it a shot because in the end, even if it goes south badly, not that much will get lost.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I talk about is that being bold is not being thoughtless.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: It's actually one of the most pragmatic things that you do, at least for me.
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: It isn't something you just I'm going to leap and not look, I'm going to just do it.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: You do have gut instinct and things that are telling you, things that I think in a sense for me that I want to move through.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: But inherently I'm definitely thinking it, but it's moving from that thinking mode to action mode.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I thinking it, but it's moving from that thinking mode to action mode.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think I mean.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: For me, my language would be boldness isn't reckless yeah boldness is a thoughtful decision to risk some things right, yeah.
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: And I think when I talk with amy edmondson, one of the fun things that we talked about is inherently, being bold means there's a great risk of failing right, exactly, yeah.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: And of course her work is.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: You know, my latest book, how to Work with Almost Anyone, is kind of like the practical guide to unweird psychological safety.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: Amy's done such a brilliant job at bringing that idea of psychological safety and speaking up and being yourself to the world.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: How to Work with Almost Anyone is like here's how you personally build psychological safety with the people with whom you work.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's jump into that.
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: What made you, after such a successful book, create this new book, which is how to work with and it's in parentheses almost anyone?
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: And I'd love to talk about who's in that parentheses, in just a second.
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: But what was the you know impetus of creating that particular work?
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Well, partly it's a clarity that, of all the things I do in the world, writing books is one of the things I'm best at and most different to.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: You know, I write books that tend to be short and practical and accessible and not too serious, but not too light either.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: You know they're designed for people to go oh, this has been helpful and this feels like I could act on some of that.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: And you know I'm a pretty good teacher and facilitator and keynote speaker and all that stuff.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: But I'd like to be known as a writer and so writers write and often writers create books.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: So partly I'm always going well, what's my next big project?
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: And it's often some version of a book.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: And then I was going well, of all the things I could write and talk about what would be most useful to the people that I serve who are often mid to senior level leaders, people in working in small, medium and big size companies what could be helpful?
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: And I was like I've had this practice for 20 years, something that Peter Block taught me around how do I build better relationships with my clients, with my customers, with my team, my boss, all of these things.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: I reckon that's going to be a really helpful tool for people.
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: So that's the origin thought that then turned into how to work with almost anyone.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when it comes to being able to work within an organization and in my experience, I've worked in large academic institutions and they're incredible.
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: But there's lots of layers, there's lots of bureaucracy, there's lots of history.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of politics.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, politics right.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: But one of the things that I think as I grew up in that institution and kind of in that environment, is that trying to figure out how much of me can I be authentically, and then how do I work with people who may not be like me at all.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: So like, where would one begin and try to figure that out?
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: And like when I went in guns blazing in my early to late twenties so mid to late twenties I was like I'm a hundred percent me and I was like, whoa, maybe everyone doesn't want to know my opinion right now.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: You know those types of things.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: Where do we make sure that we have that alignment between who we are and making sure we're whether it's a fit or whatever the right word is with an organization when it comes to relationships.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: Well, work happens through people.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: It's really annoying, but it's also true, which is your working relationships are really significant influences on your happiness and your success at work.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: And if you're listening to this and going well, maybe let me take you to a place where you think about one of the toughest working relationships you've had in the past and what was done and what was said in that experience.
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: And then what impact did it have?
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Working in that really tough relationship?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: And my bet is when you think about how it affected you and your sense of yourself and your sense of your confidence and your courage and the sense of the and you know, the actual work that you ended up doing, everything got diminished in that tough working experience.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: It didn't even matter what the work is not could have been, you know, average work.
• 17:45
  Speaker 2: It could have been a project that you were really excited about, but with that tough working working relationship, everything gets tainted by that and you are shrunk.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: You lose confidence and confidence and self-sufficiency and autonomy and you, you know you begin to doubt yourself.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: And equally, on the flip side, if you think of some of the best working relationships you've ever had, how you know people who kind of brought out your best and how you were more than the sum of your parts and how you kind of managed to go through the hard things and the confusing things and the ambiguity and the conflict.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: You're like man, we were.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: We were enlarged, you know our capacity expanded and being part of that again didn't even matter what the work is.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: You may have been working stuff where you're like the work was okay, you know the content, but it was such good fun working with that other person.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: That really makes a difference.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: So when we come in and go, hey, you just be authentic, that's a, that's an atomizing statement.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know, without you in context, just be you, and what you're actually looking to do is going.
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: How do I with you, know you and me, how might we build our best possible relationship between us where we get to be the best possible version of ourselves in the dance with each other?
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: You know you're dancing with somebody.
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: You're not doing a John Travolta solo disco solo.
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: You're dancing with somebody.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: You're not doing a John Travolta solo disco solo.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: You're dancing with somebody here.
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: So you're like.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: So how do you and I work best together in?
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: a way that brings out our best, in a way that avoids our triggers and the things that are definitely not our best, in a way that we actually figure out how to work well together.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you probably don't get to be you 10 out of 10.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: No.
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: Just like when you're in any relationship.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: It's like it's not you being fully expressed, it's you being as fully expressed as possible in the relationship with that person.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think that we don't?
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: I just look back and when I hear this I'm like gosh, this just makes so much sense, right, but?
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: But I don't don't know where I miss.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: You know where I missed a class or a lecture, or like where I missed it, because I think we are individually trying to obtain success or an outcome that we want, and I don't know if it's.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: You know when I grew up in team sports and all that, and soccer is my favorite sport of all.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: So you can't like win a match without you know 10 kicks and you know 30 feet on that ball, you know.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: So it's like I totally get that it is not one person achieving it.
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: But sometimes when you get into some roles like I was in very high level roles and I was a chief by the age of 40.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: So I was in the C-suite at 40.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: And that maybe sounds old to some people but it's young to me, especially when you're in your 50s.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: 40 is young and so like in that sense I feel like I was doing it wrong and like now I think it would be wonderful to go back into those environments and be the me I am now versus the me I was then because I I really thought it was about pushing novel pushing people to the next level, being that innovative agitator and sometimes it is, you know, it's not all about you're not saying being in agreement all the time and never be you.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: You're.
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: You're like, think about the formula.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: The good parts are the positive things about you, your relationship with others, to actually get to that outcome.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: Right, that's what you're looking to.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: So you know this idea of a best possible relationship, a BPR, which is like the key idea within the book I'll talk about the key tactic in a minute but a BPR you're going.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: What's the best expression of how you and I work together, the best possible relationship.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: And what you want is to figure out the right combination of something that is safe and vital and repairable.
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: Safe Amy Edmondson's work psychological safety.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: You need that.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: That's table stakes.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: But it's not enough, like if you're just nice the whole time.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: That's actually a bit cloying.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: So you need psychological bravery, being able to push people, a vitality.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: So how do we challenge each other, how do we push, how do we agitate a bit and how do you find the right balance between safety and bravery, safety and vitality, between your working relationship?
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: That's where I think I might have been off balance a little bit.
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: I think it wasn't all the time, but there were certain moments where you would get friction and it would be like wow, like I don't know why I'm getting this friction and thinking about that.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: Vprs are talking about like the it, it is the.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: It is like an alignment or a balance of those factors and it is inevitable, even if you have kind of figure it out.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: It's inevitable that things go wrong.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: Like every relation, the fabric rips.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: Something happens, like you go a bit too far.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: You didn't have breakfast, so you're a bit hangry.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: You misunderstood, you didn't read the room, you didn't hear the promise that you thought people thought you were making, whatever it might be, yeah so the third element is repairable, which is like how do you fix it when things go wrong and you know?
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: you can imagine that if you'd been in that place where you're like, we'd had a conversation and they knew that you have a bias towards agitation and you know, stirring, stirring things up.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: They're like this is how she rocks and you knew they were like I, we like it a bit, but we're not that much.
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: You'll have an understanding that I said I went a bit too far and they're like yep, you went a bit too far and you've had a conversation about how you fix it when things go wrong, so you give yourself a better chance of understanding where you might kind of trip up, noticing it faster and repairing it more quickly, which allows that relationship to last longer and be the better expression of itself.
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: I think it's simple and I think it's difficult for most people because you didn't miss a class, this stuff doesn't get taught and actually we all have a bias to get into the work Right, and the key tactic that's suggested in the book is simply this have a conversation about how you work together before you start working together, before you get into the work.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Or, if you're already working with somebody, have a conversation about how you work together before you start working together, before you get into the work.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Or, if you're already working with somebody, have a conversation about how you work together before you get back into the work.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: And it's simple but difficult because we are all biased and we're all trained to plunge into the work, to get into the stuff, because it's always there, important and urgent and exciting and critical and a crisis or whatever we think we get rewarded by the work.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: We think that the thing to do is focus on the work and just hopefully the relationship stuff happens.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: But work happens through relationships and I also think just to say one thing just to finish off it absolutely is influenced, then, by status and power and where you sit relative to each other and how much of the mainstream you have.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: So it's different if you're a woman versus a man, if you're a person of color versus a person, who's white versus all of those things influence that.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: But the book is called how to work with almost anyone and everybody has their almost anyone's.
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: And that leaves everybody else.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for me the almost would be someone who is not morally or ethically aligned with me.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's usually where I would get in trouble, michael, is when, like the politics and the moral and ethics of some situation like I, would 100% of the time choose the side of being moral and ethically aligned.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: And that's really hard, because sometimes that's like that's your boss or that's just somebody you have to keep working with.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: So what happens then?
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: That's why you get fired.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Well, that's one of the options is you either get fired or you fire yourself and you get out of there?
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you fire yourself.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah exactly you choose, you make a choice.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: I think, someone would say to me like, do you know what you're doing?
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I'm like, if I'm putting up smoke, like I know I'm doing it, I'm sending a signal of there's an issue and I want people to see it.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: I always knew when I was doing it.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: So it was, it was a choice and I thought, you know.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: That's one thing I do realize about myself is, you know, when relationships at work weren't going well, it usually had to do around, something like that.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: It wasn't like get in line or, you know, make sure we, you know, do the things that we need to do to align with the overall strategy of the organization.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: I was all in for that, but I think, in a sense of like, there would be these moments of like.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I had to choose and I just chose so that I could sleep at night so that I was aligned.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: So here's what's really helpful to hear this.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Imagine you and I were starting to work together and we were having a keystone conversation, the conversation about how we work together, and one of the questions is the bad day question, which is what can we learn from past frustrating relationships?
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: And you would tell me something like this, which is what can we learn from past frustrating relationships?
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And you would tell me something like this, which is I can work with almost anyone, but when they cross a moral or ethical boundary, this is how I react.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: I don't go quiet about it, I make a stink about it, I draw a red line in the sand about it and I'm like, well, that's really interesting to hear, because I may be a person who has a different moral compass to you and we may be stuck working with each other, but what this does is it allows us to understand.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: It allows me to understand what might be possible.
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: It allows me to understand that when you're like, this is unacceptable, that you're coming at it from a moral and ethical perspective, and it gives us a chance to perhaps not make it perfect, but make it 10 less bad than it might otherwise be right.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: And often that 10 less bad moves it from unworkable to workable and unbearable to bearable.
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: And no, I'm going to resign to.
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: I'm going to not resign but keep working because we've got we've got some boundaries.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: It helps you understand the root of the friction too.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: I think when looking at your book it's like, oh wow, Like man, I really, really wish this was in my master's class, but it's not taught.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: I think relationships in business school.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's evolved, and I'm sure it has since I was in school, but I think we didn't talk about that.
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: We talked about the practicality, we talked about the math, we talked about the science we know wasn't really talking about what I consider the skills that you actually need to really hone and understand about yourself as you become a leader and continually learn more about yourself as a leader.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: That's right, and so you know it's as a classic soft skill.
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we need to rename that.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: yeah, yeah, you know the origin of it is from the military, which is they're like hard skills involve things that are hard, like tanks and soft skills are things that are not hard like everything else, but it's a bit pejorative, isn't it?
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: The hard skill versus the soft skill?
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: right um, so it doesn't work, but it's kind of it feels like we're stuck with it as a definition.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: But it's like you know the people at a certain point.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: You only start succeeding to the extent which you manage to have your relationships thrive, because work happens through people.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Right Work happens through people.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: I love that, and when you think about relationships, do you think it's possible to not have as much education or as much competence in a particular topic?
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: But if you're really good at creating positive relationships that move the needle forward, you can actually do better and have more success than someone who might have all the letters behind their name or you know all the years of experience.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it depends a little bit on the role and the purpose.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I think credentials become less and less important around the actuality of the work.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: But there's a way that we're constantly evaluating people for status and when somebody like me shows up and goes, michael's a Rhodes Scholar, everybody's like oh, that's amazing.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: And I'm like I'm far less impressive actually than you think, but you give me the benefit of the doubt by having that kind of that status.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: But I think that's one of the reasons why being more coach-like which is what the Coaching Habit book is all about is such a powerful leadership tool and behavior, because the key behavior that you exhibit when you are more coach-like and notice I'm saying that rather than being a coach, because I'm like most people, I'm not trying to turn into a coach, I'm just trying to add it as a leadership behavior and the specific behavior is can you stay curious a little bit longer?
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Can you rush to action and advice giving a little bit more slowly?
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Because for most people their advice is not nearly as good as they think it is.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: And also often advice is having a deleterious effect.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: I've got a TEDx talk on this, called how to tame your advice monster, and it's like let me show you the impact of your advice and there is absolutely a hundred percent a really important place for advice giving in organizational life Just not as fast as you think it is.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, when you think about the coaching habit and the book and the things that you've come up with being coached like, when someone thinks about how they can coach themselves, where do they start?
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: Because it doesn't always need to be someone else telling you what to do or how to do it or what to think about, and you have, you have this way of outlining kind of the key steps in your book but kind of tell us how someone can become more coach-like with themselves and coach themselves first.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: Well, the key action is staying curious, and when you're thinking about self-coaching, partly what you're trying to do is just notice your own behavior.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: It's a version of emotional intelligence.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: I always think emotional intelligence is kind of being able to observe yourself and go that thing you're doing.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: Is that what you want to be doing and is that actually working for you?
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then when you say no, it's not working, like doing something about it.
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: Exactly Right.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is not the me who I want to be showing up.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: So how do I shift some of that Right?
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: So for me, just you know, if you're, if you're, trying to coach yourself on how to be more coach-like, one of the things that I think is really interesting is just to notice how quickly you start giving advice to people, how quickly your advice monster jumps into your head, grabs the steering wheel and you're like my job is to add value by giving, telling people what to do, and once you become more aware of that, you'll become better able to resist that.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: But then, on a more general level, if you're looking to coach yourself, it's tricky to ask and answer questions in your own head because we just find ways to be slippery with ourselves around that.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: So that's one of the reasons why journaling can be really powerful, because it's like set yourself a question and then set yourself two minutes to answer that question.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: So when I journal in the morning and I'm not I do journal, although I'm not your classic journaler.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Perhaps I want three questions I asked myself.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: First question is what do I notice?
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: That's me trying to go, what's in my head and what's in my body and what's in front of me and kind of what's going on, it's trying to make me more present.
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: Second question is what do I want?
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: Which is a really hard question to answer.
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: But the more oftentimes you ask yourself what do I want and answer it, the clearer you get clear on what matters most to you and what your priorities are.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: And then the third question I ask myself is what's the one thing today that I need to get cracking on?
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Because, like everybody here, I've got too many commitments and too many to-dos and too many things, and I can do a day where I tick off 19 to-dos, but I don't tick off the one thing I need to do today.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: So, what's the one thing today, and that's how I self-coach myself.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, one of the things you say is that, being human, that our potential is unlimited.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what does that mean?
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: Because I think people feel and I've felt it before like well, I can't actually make that move, I can't make that choice, I can't even think about quitting my job, there's too much on me.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I limit myself, right Like, with those beliefs, and I think our belief in ourself is a big part of also coaching and moving through what you call disruption earlier, right Going towards your future self.
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: So what does that mean to you?
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: To be unlimited?
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: I probably walk that back.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not sure I'm unlimited.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that I've got potential that is yet to be used.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure that is true for everybody and who knows how much that is.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: But let's say that we've all got a journey ahead of us to kind of step into the person we could be and the potential that we have.
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty clear I don't have any potential to be an nba basketballer.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Not, I can't jump, I can't shoot, I'm old, my knees are dodgy, you know.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: There's just there's nothing I could do to ever get me onto the nba so you are limited in that capacity yeah, there's all sorts of limitations we have, you know, let's, let's get real about this.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: but within your world, you know, the invitation I always love to make to people is like it just comes from another book called how to Begin Start Doing Something that Matters is the subtitle, and in that book I talk about this idea of finding a worthy goal.
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: So a worthy goal is thrilling, important and daunting.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Thrilling it lights you up.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Important it contributes to the world and makes the world a bit better.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: And daunting it takes you to the edge of who you are now so that you can learn and struggle and break through.
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: You know, whatever world you're playing in this idea of going, what's my worthy goal, Something that's thrilling, important and daunting for me is what gives you focus and courage to step out to the edge of yourself and start expanding your potential and start fulfilling more of your potential.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: And one of the things, the next step after that is like getting it on paper that crappy first draft right.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Exactly so many people are looking for perfection.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: So, as we kind of close out, what is your guidance for someone?
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Just to get it down on paper, to put that crappy first draft down, to take that step.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Well, I probably just repeat what you're saying, which is like you have full permission to make the first or to write something down to be a bit crappy, because it always is.
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: Take it from two writers, two authors here that your first draft is deeply disappointing or at least kind of like ah, it's okay, and then go.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: Things always get better with drafting, so if you can kind of work it and rework it, I always think about how do I keep trying to amp up the thrilling and the important and the daunting, because my first guess that it might be thrilling but not quite important enough yet.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Daunting maybe, maybe not, it's like it takes.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: It takes some time to figure some stuff out yeah, it's not a one and done they say say about writing.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: Writing is, in the end, editing.
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Or endless.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the best books you read are the ones that have been rewritten endless times and edited endless times.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: And so why wouldn't you do that for the thing that might give your life a certain sense of direction and purpose?
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Keep working at find people to help you around you, encourage you, support you, coach you, but also don't get stuck on the perfection of it as well, because there's a way that we can all get it's like oh, it's not quite perfect yet.
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: At a certain point you're like this is good enough.
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: This is my best guess.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Now I need to act on it and do something about it.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and on it and do something about it, yeah.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: And the good news is you don't have to do it alone.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: There's people like you, me and others who want to help us succeed.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: There's a whole bold community desperate to help you here.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being on the Bold Lounge.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: All the information about Michael pick up every single one of his books below in the episode notes, and I appreciate you being on the Bold Lounge.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: My pleasure.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: I appreciate you being on the Bold Lounge, my pleasure.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.