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Oceana Working to Protect Endangered Species: How Legal Action Safeguards Whales and Sea Turtles · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
A beach goer sees a humpback whale breach off the coast, unaware it's a species.
0:05
Once on the brink beneath the surface, sea turtles struggled to survive
0:09
fishing nets and warming oceans.
0:12
Tara Brock, an environmental lawyer with Oceania, works behind the
0:15
scenes to defend these species.
0:17
The Endangered Species Act is a decades old, but still powerful law that gives
0:21
threatened species a fighting chance.
0:24
Legal decisions influence whether whales, dodge ship strikes or
0:28
sea turtles escape by cash.
0:30
ESA enforcement has led to real change like gear modifications that saved.
0:34
Thousands of sea turtles.
0:36
Some protections are under attack.
0:37
Loopholes are widening and enforcement is uneven.
0:40
Oceania uses litigation science and public pressure to push for accountability.
0:46
Listeners can support policy changes, urge better industry practices, and
0:50
speak out for species without a voice.
0:53
Every hatchling that makes it to the sea and every whale
0:56
breaching free is a reminder that the law can work if we use it.
1:00
We're gonna be talking about the Endangered Species Act and how
1:03
important it is to preserving this specific species on this episode of
1:07
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
1:09
Let's start the show.
1:12
Hey everybody.
1:13
Welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
1:16
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out
1:18
what's happening with the ocean, how you could speak up for the ocean,
1:21
and what you could do to live for a better ocean by taking action.
1:24
And on today's episode, we're gonna be speaking to Tara Brock.
1:27
She is an environmental lawyer for Oceania, and she is here to talk
1:32
about the Endangered Species Act and how it can be used as a tool to
1:36
protect species that are a little bit more vulnerable than we think.
1:40
And the conservation story is a successful conservation story that have come.
1:43
From enacting this law and following this law, it's going to be a great episode.
1:49
I can't wait for you to listen, but before we do, I wanted to talk to you about
1:53
something that's really important to me and I think really important to you.
1:56
Do you want to learn how to conserve the ocean better?
1:59
Do you want to protect it?
2:01
This is something that's really been of interest for me for a long time.
2:04
Something to go beyond just this podcast and to help guide you to,
2:10
you know, live for a better ocean.
2:12
I want you to join The Undertow.
2:14
It's a new company that I'm the co-founder of with two amazing
2:16
women, Serena and Amanda.
2:18
We are starting a digital app.
2:19
We are creating it.
2:20
We are in the process of creating it, and we're almost there to launch it.
2:23
We want you to be a part of it.
2:25
We want you to learn about wave makers who are really, you know, breaking
2:29
ceilings and looking to protect the ocean a little bit more, may not
2:33
have the support all the time there.
2:35
And we provide an infrastructure in there for you to be able to not only
2:38
listen to their mission, but help them in getting closer to protecting
2:42
the ocean as well as yourself.
2:44
So it's a lot of fun.
2:45
We want you to join.
2:46
All you have to do is go to speak up for blue.com/join the undertow.
2:50
That's speak up for blue.com/join the undertow, all one word, and
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get on the waiting list to get in.
2:56
We're almost ready to launch that app.
2:58
Let's get into the interview with Tara Brock, environmental lawyer for Oceana.
3:03
I can't wait for you to listen.
3:04
Here's the interview.
3:05
Enjoy and I'll talk to you after.
3:07
Hey Tara, welcome to the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
3:10
Are you ready to talk about the Endangered Species Act?
3:14
Yes, I am excited to talk about the Endangered Species Act and its
3:17
importance for conserving species.
3:19
It's funny, you know, when when we talk about getting excited for
3:22
something, it's not often that we get excited to talk about a piece of
3:25
legislation that's really, you know, that's obviously really important.
3:28
We're getting into why it's so important, but it's something, it's
3:30
something that always makes me laugh.
3:31
It's like we're gonna talk about like legislation.
3:34
Everybody's like, yay, because it's.
3:36
You know, this is something, endangered Species Act is something that is all,
3:39
like every country seems to have one.
3:41
Like in Canada, we have one where I'm from, and then obviously the US has one
3:45
federally, and then we also have them, you know, in states and in provinces.
3:49
They play a very, you know, important role in conservation.
3:52
But we don't really talk a lot about them, but we, we hear about.
3:55
The, you know, this, this type of legislation, sometimes in a good
3:59
way, but oftentimes in a bad way, uh, because of the types of animals that
4:03
are there and the level of, of, I guess, where they are in terms of extinction
4:07
or protection and, and what, and how much information they need or how
4:11
much protection they actually need.
4:12
So it's, it's a very important legislation, but I always
4:14
just find it funny how.
4:15
We get excited to talk about legislation, but you are a lawyer and so this is
4:20
what you like to talk about and so do I, and so this is gonna be a lot of fun.
4:24
But before we get into talking about the Endangered Species Act, Tara,
4:27
let's get to know you a little bit.
4:28
Why don't you to let the audience know who you are and what you do.
4:33
Well, yeah, thanks again for having me.
4:34
Definitely get excited in talking about conservation laws.
4:38
So this is, I'm excited to be here.
4:40
Um, my name's Tara Brock.
4:42
I am Pacific Legal Director and Senior counsel at Oceana.
4:46
So my job entails working on all manner of ocean conservation issues
4:51
off the West coast in Alaska.
4:53
We work on responsible fisheries management, reducing plastic pollution
4:58
in the ocean conserving species, um, and really just making sure that the oceans
5:03
remain a really healthy place because of their importance to life on earth.
5:08
It is a tall order, you know, to, to protect the oceans, especially
5:12
from the, from, from the courts or from a legislative perspective
5:15
and a law and a law perspective.
5:17
Uh, how did this all come about in terms of becoming a lawyer?
5:22
When did you start to think, this is what I want to do, you know,
5:26
when I, when I grow up and, and did you always think that this is where
5:30
you're gonna end up in environmental law and protecting the ocean?
5:34
Oh, that's a great question.
5:36
I, I definitely do not have a linear path, I think, to this work.
5:40
I was actually an art major in undergrad.
5:43
And I worked with a lot of different materials.
5:46
I liked collecting materials.
5:48
I worked with a lot of trash, frankly, to make my pieces interesting, and that led
5:53
me to working with our local recycling facility and collecting a lot of the
5:58
plastics from there, and learning that plastic bottle caps weren't recycled at
6:02
the time, and just seeing the mountains of waste that was coming into that facility.
6:09
Some that was getting recycled, some that wasn't, and researching all of that.
6:13
And it was right at the time that Captain Charles Moore with the Alita
6:17
Foundation was discovering the Great Pacific Gyre, which perhaps some of
6:21
your listeners have heard about, but a floating mass of plastics out in the
6:26
ocean, most of them tiny particles.
6:28
And so that was just coming into the public's forefront.
6:31
And so my art.
6:32
Started to sort of reflect some of that and become more of education
6:36
about what was going on in our oceans and environment and how our
6:40
waste was contributing to that.
6:42
And so I picked up an environmental minor while I was at school,
6:46
and the rest is history.
6:47
I got hooked in environmental advocacy working with Environment Michigan.
6:52
Mm-hmm.
6:53
Um, and then found my way out to the West coast for law school at
6:56
Lewis and Clark, one of the best environmental law schools in the country.
7:00
And.
7:01
Once I saw the Oregon coast, I was definitely hooked on, on
7:04
helping, protect and do ocean law.
7:07
It is absolutely, um, magnificent out here.
7:10
The West coast really is beautiful.
7:12
It well, absolutely it is.
7:13
That's my, my non-linear path towards, uh, becoming a lawyer and,
7:18
uh, diving into ocean conservation.
7:20
I, I mean, I love that, you know, a lot of the, something that I've discovered,
7:24
'cause I ask all my guests, you know, how did they get to where they got?
7:27
And one of the things that I've realized fairly quickly is that.
7:30
It's never a linear path, you know, very rarely.
7:33
You know, sometimes it is, but very rarely is, is it a linear path of
7:36
where they got, like where they started to where they wanted to go,
7:39
and then they got there that way.
7:40
And just a straight, straight line.
7:42
It's always meandering and, and I feel like that is part of how
7:46
they got to where they go is the experiences that they pick up.
7:49
For you, Tara, it sounds like it was, you know, as you were, as you were, you know,
7:53
making these pieces out of, out of trash.
7:56
And you start to realize in the recycling industry, it's not what it is.
8:00
It was advertised as a lot of things weren't getting recycled.
8:04
And then you start to realize, well, hold on a second here.
8:05
What, what can I do?
8:07
Uh, when you mentioned that you took, you picked up, uh, an environmental minor.
8:11
Was that like an environmental science minor or was it more, uh, like, like in
8:16
the advocacy, uh, public affairs domain?
8:19
How, how did that work?
8:22
Uh, that's a great question because it was actually called a Global change minor,
8:26
which was really new program at the time, at the University of Michigan, and it was
8:32
through the School of Natural Resources.
8:34
But it focused both on how the earth changes naturally.
8:38
Mm-hmm.
8:38
And how humans are impacting that.
8:41
So we studied population demographics, but also natural processes.
8:46
But it wasn't strictly like an environmental science, um, uh, minor.
8:51
It was definitely involved a lot bigger picture on how the earth was changing
8:56
and how humans were impacting that.
8:58
And so I feel very lucky that I was able to, to partake in that.
9:02
I think it was only the first or second year they were offering it at the time.
9:05
Yeah.
9:06
Um, and really cool, uh, program to be able to, I can imagine.
9:10
I mean that, I feel like everybody should have to go through a program like
9:13
that just to really fully understand what, you know, what, how, what
9:17
influence we have on the planet and how we're, we're changing the planet.
9:21
That obviously kickstarted an interesting career for you, you
9:25
know, in, in environmental advocacy.
9:26
When you get outta school, what makes, like, where did you head first?
9:31
Like, what makes you go from school and doing like, you know, obviously fine arts,
9:35
which you could have gone into the, the, the art direct, like the direction of
9:38
art with, you know, ocean conservation or conservation in general, or you know, you
9:43
went the environmental advocacy route.
9:45
What was like your first step and did you really fully understand where you
9:49
wanted to go after that at that point?
9:53
Well, that's, uh, you know, I don't know that I fully
9:56
understood where I wanted to go.
9:58
I graduated law school in 2011, which was not the best time
10:02
to graduate from law school.
10:04
Right.
10:04
Jobs were scarce.
10:06
Yep.
10:06
And so I was applying everywhere.
10:08
I did not have a job when I came.
10:10
Outta law school, but during law school I had volunteered
10:13
with a lot of organizations including Surf Rider Foundation.
10:17
Mm-hmm.
10:17
Um, which works to protect oceans, waves, and beaches.
10:21
Focus a lot on recreational users.
10:23
And it was such a great experience and it's really where I feel like
10:27
I, I cut my teeth and organizing and advocacy and how people and people's
10:33
voices can be used to change policy and change impact on the ground.
10:39
And so I kept volunteering.
10:41
I kept, uh, putting myself out there and showing up.
10:44
I worked for a strategic consulting firm for a while, helping other nonprofits
10:48
be successful in their campaigns.
10:51
And over time, I, um, ended up working at the Pew Charitable Trust
10:56
and working on fisheries, uh, policy.
10:59
And so that's sort of the, the not linear, again, path that I came out of law school.
11:05
So it was, um.
11:06
It was a great experience, honestly.
11:09
Yeah.
11:09
Having and volunteering, you know, I think that that's a great way to
11:12
get involved and to learn things, um, that you're not an expert in.
11:17
I don't have a marine biology degree.
11:19
I don't, um, you know, have that background.
11:22
But learning by doing and learning by listening to others was just so valuable.
11:27
Not only having the legal side of things from my education,
11:30
but really learning that.
11:32
Advocacy toolkit from, from Surf Rider and others, um, and how to run campaigns.
11:38
Absolutely.
11:38
I mean, you seem to have received a lot of experience, uh, over a wide
11:43
variety of, of, of types of campaigns, not only from a notion perspective,
11:48
but a recreational perspective.
11:49
And then working with, you know, a, a plethora of nonprofit organizations,
11:53
I'm sure you know, across the gambit of, of running campaigns.
11:59
Let me ask you this because I find this is always interesting.
12:02
You come from a very creative background doing a degree in fine arts.
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How has that helped you in adapting to the, the different types of campaigns and
12:13
the different types of what seems to be subject matters that come up and topics
12:16
that come up that you are able to cover?
12:18
Do you find that having that creative background allows you that.
12:22
That wiggle room or that that space to, to be able to think out of the
12:25
box and, and bring that to the table.
12:28
Uh, when you run these types of campaigns.
12:31
Absolutely.
12:32
I always say that having a creative mindset, being open-minded and thinking
12:38
really out of the box sometimes is the best way to approach something.
12:43
You know, we, we can be very linear in our goals and our policy objectives,
12:48
and without thinking about maybe who else should be at the table.
12:51
Or what other constituency might care about this?
12:54
And really thinking about other tactics and frankly, using art
12:59
in, in a way to educate people.
13:01
Um, there's a great organization called Wash to Shore.
13:04
Mm-hmm.
13:04
Here in Oregon.
13:05
Based here in Oregon that makes these amazing sculptures out of marine debris
13:09
or trash that they find on the beach.
13:12
And they're gorgeous.
13:13
I mean, and you just don't even realize that that is all
13:15
stuff collected from the ocean.
13:18
Such a good adv adv advocacy tool to educate the public about this
13:23
problem of plastics in the ocean and, and connecting for people,
13:27
making that connection for people.
13:29
So absolutely being creative and having that creative mindset
13:32
is so beneficial to this work.
13:35
And thinking creatively about how we might frame a policy or even draft a policy to
13:40
get the outcome we want, um, while still considering other, you know, other needs.
13:45
And so I definitely think it's, uh, it's helpful.
13:49
I can imagine.
13:50
I you, when you mentioned the, the, the art of from trash, it, it reminded me
13:54
at out Toronto Zoo here, uh, there was a display and I, I feel like was the
13:58
soro may have built the, the displays, but it was this massive polar bear,
14:03
like lifesize polar bear made of trash.
14:05
And when you look at it, you, you were in awe.
14:07
You're like, wow, this is really cool.
14:08
Like this is huge and it looks like a polar bear.
14:11
Uh, you know, it's got the same kind of features, and then as you
14:13
get closer and closer you realize these are everyday trash materials.
14:17
That, and, and what we think is recycled materials that we expect.
14:21
Gets recycled or gets disposed of appropriately, but are found in the
14:25
ocean or are found in our landscapes.
14:27
And you realize like, oh my gosh, like I use a lot of these materials and
14:31
this is what this animal's made of.
14:33
And you're like, this is a lot of material to make this massive, you
14:36
know, animal like lifesize animal.
14:38
And it, and it, it makes you think, you know, and in terms
14:40
of that, and I find that.
14:41
Art plays such an important role in that, in, uh, in conservation.
14:45
I don't think we realize it when we, when we see it, but if you sit back and think
14:49
about it, it's, it's really interesting.
14:51
Um, and so when you, when you get to Oceania, um, you know, you get to
14:56
it in, I think it was 2019 when you, when you, when you started there.
14:59
Um.
15:01
What was your thinking like?
15:02
What did you come in, like?
15:03
You come in as a, as a council for the Pacific region, for Oceania.
15:07
Um, you know, obviously Oceania is a, is a great organization covering a,
15:10
a lot of different, as you mentioned, a lot of different topics, plastic
15:14
pollution, fisheries, and so forth.
15:16
What, uh, what was like your, your first projects that you were working
15:20
on when you were working with Oceana?
15:24
Well, my first, I think 30 days on the job, we ended up filing,
15:28
uh, litigation, so, okay.
15:31
Over anchovy, so, okay.
15:33
It was, um, almost immediate.
15:35
I believe I, I was, uh, having to, to change my brain into more of a real
15:41
lawyer focus and file litigation over the management of anchovy off our coast.
15:46
And so.
15:47
That was one of the first things I did on the job.
15:50
It was, um, but it was great to be able to dig in and, uh, my previous
15:56
work had not, uh, required me really to use my to do litigation.
16:01
We did.
16:02
That wasn't a tool that my previous jobs had utilized.
16:05
But Oceania, it's one of the tools in the toolbox.
16:08
We, of course, interesting use communications and other and other
16:12
means to achieve our objectives, but when needed, Oceania also takes the
16:15
step of going to court and enforcing our environmental laws like the
16:19
Endangered Species Act when we need to, and when we feel that there
16:23
has been a violation of the law.
16:24
So yeah, really, really great to step right into that role and be able
16:28
to use my, my law degree for, for those purposes on a campaign that
16:32
Oceania had been working on for.
16:34
For many years before that.
16:36
That's really interesting.
16:37
I, I always find it interesting with like a, an organization like Oceano,
16:41
the, the amazing work that it's able to do, uh, across like science policy,
16:46
advocacy, uh, conservation and law.
16:49
I find a lot of organizations, they don't talk a lot like enough about
16:53
the law, uh, that the like, like the litigation matters that they discuss.
16:58
I almost feel like it's a story within itself in terms of all the different
17:02
tactics that you're able to use using.
17:05
Litigation and we don't hear about it enough.
17:07
We hear about the science and we hear sometimes about the policy
17:10
that's, that's made or the wins or sometimes the shortcomings, but we
17:14
never really hear about the the law.
17:16
And it's so funny 'cause I think when people think about lawyers, they think
17:18
about suits and they think about corporate law and they think about money being
17:21
made and, and businesses and so forth.
17:23
I almost find there needs to be like a Suits environment type of of show.
17:27
So we can start to see.
17:28
Some of the things that you guys, that everybody goes through when
17:31
it comes to law, how, what's the challenge as a lawyer, as an
17:36
environmental lawyer that you face, like working with an organization
17:40
like Ocean N that has a lot of power.
17:41
It has a lot of lobby power, it has a, you know, it has a big constituency.
17:45
Um, when you come to court, what's the, what are the, some of the challenges that
17:50
you guys face as a team of, of lawyers?
17:55
Well, we're, we come to court prepared.
17:57
We don't bring litigation unless we think we have a very good case.
18:01
And, um, so I think the best thing Oceania does is that we don't just
18:07
litigate, we also campaign, we do the science, we do the advocacy, we build up
18:12
the record so that when we're in court, we know that it's based on science,
18:17
um, and that we have a good case.
18:19
There.
18:19
So that's one of the things that Oceania just does so well.
18:22
We use all the tools in the toolbox.
18:24
We get, we get the public engagement, we use communications to make sure
18:29
we're communicating to the public and decision makers about what's going on.
18:33
And litigation is often sort of the last, the last resort, right?
18:37
We're trying to work within, um, other realms with decision makers.
18:41
And sometimes at the end of the day.
18:43
There has been a violation of law that we need to go enforce.
18:46
And so that's one thing Oceania does really well is has the whole, the whole
18:51
picture when it comes to advocacy, and I think that's like a, that's goes,
18:55
it speaks to the team that you have.
18:57
At Oceania and, and the different departments that you have and how well
19:00
you all work together to provide that information if you need to go to court
19:04
and, and, and stop something from happening, like you said, it's the last,
19:07
sort of last move that you need to make.
19:10
If a, if a law has been, uh, you know, disregarded or not,
19:13
or not followed properly, uh, which I think is interesting.
19:16
Speaking of laws, let's talk about a piece of legislation that's really
19:19
important, the Endangered Species Act.
19:21
Can you discuss, discuss like what the Endangered Species Act
19:24
is and, and how it protects?
19:27
Specific animals that make the list?
19:30
Sure.
19:30
The, the Endangered Species Act, I mean, the primary goal is to protect
19:34
and conserve, threatened and endangered species and also the areas and
19:39
habitats that they need to, to survive and avoid extinction and recover.
19:44
So those, that's really the main goal of the Endangered Species
19:47
Act and to identify those species.
19:50
Um, there's, there's definitions of what it means to be endangered or threatened.
19:54
Mm-hmm.
19:54
Endangered means that they are, you know, threatened with extinction
19:59
within, uh, the near future.
20:01
And if, and threatened is that they're likely to be.
20:05
Um, extinct within the foreseeable future.
20:08
So once we've identified those species, once, uh, the relevant agency, it's either
20:15
the Fish and Wildlife Service or the National Marine Fishery Service, depending
20:18
on what species you're looking at.
20:21
Um, but they will look at the science, the, the, the status of the threats to
20:26
that species, the population status, um, the population growth or decline.
20:32
And, and the habitat, the availability of the quality and quantity of
20:35
the habitat for that species.
20:38
Mm-hmm.
20:38
Um, and determine if it's warranted for listing.
20:41
And once they are listed, a whole host of amazing protections come into place.
20:46
You have the requirement to designate critical habitat.
20:50
You have a prohibition on what is called take of species, which is a technical
20:55
definition, but it pretty much means, you know, anything that might harm
20:59
harass, you can't hunt any of those, and it's pretty broad definition of
21:03
what it means to take a species and you can't even attempt to do those things.
21:08
That is also prohibited.
21:10
So you get this very broad, uh, protections right away
21:13
when a species is listed.
21:15
And it also requires the development of recovery plans.
21:18
So putting together that roadmap Yes.
21:20
Looking holistically at the species, what does it need to come back
21:24
from the brink of extinction?
21:26
And so that's sort of the, in the nutshell of, uh, yeah, what the Endangered Species
21:30
Act does when looking at specific species.
21:32
Uh, recovery plans are such an important part of that act.
21:35
You know, something that as a scientist, I always, I always acknowledge because,
21:39
you know, with, you could put something, an animal on a list and say, Hey, we,
21:43
we can't do anything, you know, further to, you know, decrease this population
21:47
size or, or harm this animal or harass this animal in any kind of way.
21:51
Whether we mean to or not.
21:53
We have to really, you know, focus on this.
21:55
Um, but.
21:56
Yeah, that doesn't necessarily help them recover.
21:59
It could stop the harm and it can stop, maybe a decrease or slow down, a
22:03
decrease, but there's always something there that will harm the animal,
22:07
especially with all the cumulative impacts that we see with animals.
22:10
Not just one thing.
22:11
One thing might be accelerating the decrease, but it's not only just just
22:14
one thing, and to have a recovery plan in place to identify all these
22:18
different effects, to identify all these different influences to identify.
22:22
If we stop this, what do we need to do?
22:24
Is there a repopulation aspect to it?
22:26
Is it just a protection?
22:28
Is it like protecting specific habitat?
22:30
What habitat to protect?
22:32
And I always find it interesting because.
22:34
Uh, when governments come in and they want to develop natural resources, or
22:39
they want to develop a piece of land or a piece of water, and they, you
22:44
know, the Endangered Species Act sort of, you know, quote unquote slows them
22:48
down as they like to say, uh, which is way I always find ironic because that's
22:52
the whole point, is to not jump into decisions and, and look at what's there.
22:56
Uh, you know.
22:57
The recovery plan is there to stop those efforts from happening and,
23:01
and slow down those efforts from happening so that these animals can
23:04
be protected and these habitats can be protected, not just the animals.
23:08
And I think we, we know that you mentioned that too, it's
23:10
looking at habitat availability, food availability, and so forth.
23:14
It's such an important aspect to that when it comes to the Endangered Speech Act.
23:19
From a legal aspect, what have you found in your experience?
23:23
Get like people try to cir circumvent the most when it comes to the act or
23:29
just maybe not the most, but just some of the items they try and circumvent
23:33
even though it's part of the legislation.
23:37
Well, I think the, um.
23:39
You know, looking at, uh, any sort of activity that might impact a
23:43
species, um, there is going to be an assessment of what needs to be done to
23:48
protect that species from that impact.
23:50
Yeah.
23:51
And I don't know, you know, that we see a whole lot of, um, people necessarily
23:54
trying to violate that, but maybe it's skirt, the requirements from.
23:59
You know, uh, not wanting, making, making it go faster, making sure
24:03
that we see, um, a faster result to get their permit, which might have
24:08
mitigation measures in place, right?
24:10
Mm-hmm.
24:11
That might be, Hey, we, we, you need to do some mitigation work here to ensure
24:13
you don't have impact this species.
24:16
Maybe it's that you don't fish in a certain area because that is.
24:20
That area is important for this species, um, for feeding or breeding
24:25
or any other number of reasons.
24:27
Um, so I don't know that there's a lot of intentional trying to skirt the act,
24:31
but certainly as you said, we hear that people want to move faster and not,
24:36
not stand in the way of development.
24:39
Um, I think it's important to note though that, you know, endangered species
24:42
and, and species generally biodiversity has such a large economic impact.
24:48
And so it's not just about the, the economic impact side of development
24:52
and progress in that way, but also just the value that we have, um, for
24:57
these species, both from an ecotourism perspective and the broader benefit.
25:03
If you save one species, that can have cascading effects for a whole ecosystem.
25:08
That might not even be, you know, apparent at the start.
25:11
Absolutely.
25:12
Can you talk a little bit about, maybe an example of something that Oceania
25:16
has worked on in the past, uh, in regards to the Endangered Species Act?
25:21
Just to give us a little taste of, of what type of work that's been
25:25
done, uh, to uphold, you know, the, the Endangered Species Act when it
25:29
comes to a, a particular species.
25:31
Absolutely.
25:32
We do a lot of work with endangered species.
25:35
Um, on the East coast.
25:36
We work with North, north Atlantic, right whales, which
25:39
are really critically endangered.
25:41
They have very low population levels right now and we have been working to slow
25:45
vessels down, um, and getting a vessel speed rule because that's one of the main
25:50
threats to species, as well as working on getting rope list gear or pop-up
25:55
gear in place in the lobster fishery.
25:57
So making sure that whales don't get entangled in gear,
25:59
which is also a major threat.
26:01
Mm-hmm.
26:01
So those are two regulatory things we've been trying to work
26:05
on to help protect that species.
26:07
And out on the West coast out here, we have worked with,
26:11
um, on Southern Resident.
26:13
Uh, killer whales, right, both from petitioning to ensure that critical
26:17
habitat was designated for that species because just because a species is listed,
26:21
we don't always see the concurrent listing of critical habitat with that species.
26:26
Yeah, sometimes it takes an additional step.
26:29
To ensure that that gets designated.
26:31
So Ocean has petitioned the agency to ensure that critical habitat
26:36
gets designated for certain species.
26:38
Mm-hmm.
26:38
And also to make sure prey availability.
26:40
So Southern residents are pretty specific feeders they like.
26:44
Salmon, very specific salmon.
26:47
So we have worked at the Regional Fishery Management Council to ensure
26:51
there's a salmon threshold mm-hmm.
26:53
Where salmon, enough salmon gets left in the water for
26:56
those orcas to eat and survive.
26:58
So there's a, there's several different other examples I could provide as well
27:02
where we have worked on, um, right.
27:04
Protecting endangered species sort of on the ground in those ways and getting more
27:08
protections in place and using those.
27:10
Guideposts of the law to make sure that we're protecting those species and
27:14
that they can have a chance to recover.
27:16
Yeah, you mentioned something that was really interesting to me.
27:19
Petitioning the, like the government to mm-hmm.
27:22
Either put in this, this concurrent protections of, you
27:26
know, adding critical habitat.
27:27
'cause sometimes, like, let's be honest, you know, I've worked in government before
27:31
and, and there are sometimes where there are resources that are allocated based
27:34
on, uh, prioritization of the, of the government that's in play at that time.
27:38
And so some, some species might get more, uh, love than, than others.
27:42
And sometimes things get lost in the mix and.
27:45
That when you look at the recovery plans and what needs to be designated and
27:48
the, and what you need to follow from the law, it doesn't always get done.
27:52
Not necessarily to say that it's, you know, that government that's
27:55
trying not to put those in.
27:56
Sometimes it's just the resources are spread too thin and, and
27:59
they, and they have to do that.
28:01
But, but other times it's, it's nefarious.
28:03
Other times they want to keep something out because they wanna develop something
28:06
and they just slow their role in terms of, of, of trying to get stuff done.
28:10
So it, it goes both ways.
28:12
Um, but when you petition a, a government to do this type of work, can you just
28:16
talk a little bit of what that process looks like, um, from a legal framework?
28:21
Sure.
28:21
Well, under the Endangered Species Act, anyone can petition the,
28:26
a, an agency to list a species.
28:28
So at a very.
28:29
Basic level of getting a species onto a list, now you're gonna wanna provide
28:33
a lot of scientific backing mm-hmm.
28:35
For why you believe that's warranted.
28:38
Um, but you can, anyone can petition the agencies to list a species.
28:42
And so that is a very important tool when we do see that.
28:47
You know, as we, as we know right now, agencies are under-resourced and
28:51
underfunded, and they don't necessarily have the time and resources to go
28:56
do a assessment for every species.
28:58
But organizations and people working on the ground might have that information
29:03
and be able to petition the agency.
29:05
And they will turn around and, and do a 90 day finding, saying, is there substantial
29:10
information here that we, mm-hmm.
29:12
That we think is warranted to move to the next step, which is a 12 month finding
29:16
on whether or not that species should be added to the endangered species list.
29:20
So that's one place you could petition the agency.
29:23
Another is petitioning for designation of critical habitat.
29:26
So a species might be listed, but again, not have that associated
29:30
habitat, which we know is so important.
29:33
And which in itself has protections against, you know, being impacted
29:37
by actions of the federal government and private actors.
29:40
So really important piece that doesn't always get designated right away.
29:45
And so we have to go to the agency with proper information saying,
29:48
here's the, the science we have on where this species uses, what habitat
29:53
the species uses, where it's at.
29:55
And petition the agency to then designate that, which again triggers
29:59
additional protections for those areas.
30:01
Um, so a couple different places to petition.
30:04
Yeah, I think it's really interesting, uh, a couple things that stood out to me in
30:09
your answer there, because a, a lot of us, you know, who are not part who, who may
30:15
not be in the industry, like, or, or in a group like Oceana, we might be following,
30:20
you know, the emails and things like that.
30:22
But it really goes to show how much the staff.
30:26
At, at these nonprofit organizations, these environmental organizations
30:29
watch and research what's being done at, at every different
30:33
level and every different aspect.
30:35
The amount of meticulous work that goes in to be like, okay, so this,
30:39
this species isn't listed, but we've seen, you know, we've read the science,
30:43
we're working with scientists, we've talked to scientists, we've built
30:45
relationships within the community.
30:47
We know this species is decreasing.
30:49
Let's examine whether it needs to to be listed and let's do the work and then
30:54
present it to the government Almost.
30:55
Not to say they do the work for them, but give the background information
30:58
and provide a case to do that.
31:01
That's like one thing, but also looking at the species that are, have
31:05
been listed and making sure that the government has everything that they
31:08
need, all the tools in the right place and published at the same time, and
31:13
making sure that it's all done, that's required under that law, uh, takes a lot.
31:19
Of, of effort and it, and it takes a lot of of time to engage
31:23
with, with the government, uh, entities who are in charge of that.
31:27
Um, like how, like I know Oceania, you guys are, you guys are big in
31:32
the us We have, we have, uh, uh, an affiliate I guess, or, uh, an
31:37
Oceania Canada here in, in, in Canada.
31:40
And I know they're not a large organization, but they get a,
31:42
like in terms of staff members, but they get a lot done.
31:46
Oceania in the us I know it's like the, the, the, the main like
31:50
headquarters in the, like it's where it began and, and so, so forth.
31:53
How big is your staff to be able to look at all these different aspects?
31:58
You guys must be putting in a ton of work, and I know it's not like a
32:01
huge staff, that's why I'm asking.
32:03
Yeah.
32:03
Well, I would hear on the West coast, our Pacific team, which I'm a part of,
32:07
right, is just, uh, about 10 people.
32:09
So we are, we are quite small and mighty for a organization that works in.
32:15
Four states at two regional fishery management councils at the
32:19
federal level weighs in on federal legislation, state legislatures.
32:23
So it is quite a lot a big body of work for just a, a small team out here.
32:29
Yeah.
32:29
Um, and similarly on the east coast, we have teams that work on various
32:33
different issues, but you would be, you would be shocked that, uh, the
32:36
amount of work that everyone's able to get done with the teams we have.
32:39
Yeah.
32:40
Um, and to your point, we, we are very lucky.
32:42
I work with, with several scientists.
32:44
Um, we have a science team as well, right.
32:47
But on our Pacific team, we have several scientists who are
32:50
just invaluable to building.
32:52
Any case that I might bring is gonna have to have that scientific backing.
32:56
Anything we're petitioning the government for, we're gonna have
32:59
to have that science backing.
33:01
And that is mm-hmm.
33:01
That is required by the Endangered Species Act and is one of the most
33:04
important pieces is that these things must be based on the best.
33:08
Science available.
33:09
Yeah.
33:09
And that's, that's a really important thing and, and that
33:12
we can uphold in court as well.
33:15
Yeah, uh, definitely.
33:16
And I, I just wanted to shout that out because it, it is something that
33:19
I, I don't think people realize.
33:21
I think they see the name, you know, like the Oceania is the
33:24
Conservation Internationals, and they see it's a big name.
33:26
They do a lot of stuff.
33:27
It's not always like the massive buildings where, you know, they have
33:30
hundreds of people that are working, like you said, 10 people that are looking
33:33
over four states, two, you know, uh, fishing, regional councils and so forth.
33:37
And you're just like.
33:38
Wow.
33:39
Like that's a, that's a lot of work.
33:40
I, I give kudos to, to everybody there.
33:42
But it's also the partnerships that you guys make as well, right?
33:44
Like you have scientists on staff, but you also have partnerships with
33:47
other scientists, with other nonprofit organizations where you make coalitions.
33:51
And how important is that, those types of relationships to the work
33:57
that you all do to get, you know, the same solu to the same solution?
34:02
It's invaluable.
34:03
Our working with other NGOs, with industry.
34:08
With, um, decision makers, we, we, it's invaluable to have that
34:13
Other scientists, scientists at the agencies, you know, we rely a lot on.
34:18
On external partners as well and right.
34:22
The more of us there are, the stronger we are too.
34:24
So, and the ability to work with industry on some issues and find a solution,
34:30
be creative and find a solution that works for everybody, um, is, is really
34:36
invaluable to be able to do that and try to bring together as many people as
34:40
we can when we're forming coalitions.
34:42
Bring together as many groups that have shared values and, and shared, um.
34:47
And, and have a shared vision for how we might move forward on a specific issue.
34:51
Absolutely.
34:52
You mentioned industry, uh, obviously a very important part to conservation.
34:56
A lot of industry has been blamed for, you know, some of the problems that
35:00
we've seen, but they also play, uh, an integral role in the conservation because
35:04
they're the ones who are out there.
35:05
You know, we talk about fishing, shipping, tourism, to just name three.
35:09
Um, especially these days, you're on the west coast, you know, the West
35:13
coast is being open even more now that the Northwest passage is is opening up.
35:17
We're seeing a lot more shipping going forth.
35:19
I know in Canada.
35:20
There are specific laws enacted to manage a lot of the shipping that
35:23
happens, even fishing and and so forth.
35:26
Um, how does like the Endangered Species Act related, related
35:31
decisions impact those industries?
35:34
And then how do you work with, with those industries in order to mitigate
35:39
those impacts and, and really fast track the, the recovery and the conservation
35:44
of those species while balancing, you know, the sort of the, the.
35:48
The, the worries or the concerns of that, of that industry to make
35:51
sure that they can still profit and they can still sustainably
35:54
fish and, and, and do their work.
35:57
Um, I think the fishing industry is a great example and partner, especially
36:01
in the marine conservation world.
36:03
Um, fishing entanglement and fishing gear is one of the primary threats
36:07
to large whales, um, to like the Pacific Leatherback sea turtle.
36:12
We know that that's a occurring and we have seen real efforts by the
36:16
fishing industry in, in many fisheries.
36:18
To modify their gear and to work with, uh, scientists and researchers
36:24
to try to figure out how to reduce their take of endangered species.
36:28
Um, one great example off of the Oregon coast is the, um,
36:33
pink shrimp fishery, which was catching a lot of endangered econ.
36:36
And they worked with researchers and realized if they, um, put
36:40
lights on their nets, they reduced their econ catch to almost nothing.
36:45
I mean, it was like, it was phenomenal.
36:46
Wow.
36:47
The results.
36:47
So a really simple change that led to a really great conservation outcome for
36:53
the econ, worked for the fishery and made pink shrimp much more sustainable.
36:58
Um, that's amazing.
36:59
And similarly, um, in with the Green Sea turtle off the Atlantic Coast in Florida.
37:06
You had actually both, uh, agencies, the Fish and Wildlife Service, and the
37:10
National Marine Fishery Service working on conservation, um, of that species.
37:15
Fish and wildlife service on the beaches, helping, uh, prevent development on
37:20
nesting beaches or mitigating for that and ensuring that we could bring back
37:24
the, that important habitat for nesting.
37:26
Mm-hmm.
37:27
And in the ocean you had the fishery service working with the
37:29
shrimp fishery to try to reduce their take of green sea turtles.
37:34
And, you know, with pretty fabulous results, they were able to up list two
37:38
of the populations in the Atlantic, including the one off the Florida coast.
37:43
Um, and I believe the increase was something like almost no nests
37:48
being seen in Florida to over 200,000 nests in recent counts.
37:52
So really important by working with industry and identifying the
37:56
problems for a species, we can, yeah, we can work on the solutions
38:00
and try to be creative, um, in the fishing industry with modifying gear.
38:04
Another great example as I mentioned, is rope list that is being tested
38:08
off both the east and west coast right now and in Canada to try
38:11
to get less entanglement, um, for those large whales in pot fisheries.
38:17
It, these conservation stories, these success stories are just phenomenal.
38:21
Like to see, as you mentioned, the green sea turtle increase in nests going from
38:25
like almost zero to over 200 nests.
38:27
Like, you know, across the, the, the southeast, uh, coastline
38:31
is absolutely phenomenal.
38:33
Uh, we've seen other conservation stories.
38:35
The humpback whale on the west coast has had a significant increase in population
38:39
over the last, you know, 20 or 30 years.
38:42
And I, and I feel like it's, it's because of this legislation when
38:45
they're, when you're put on the Endangered Species Act, you, you
38:48
have to put in these recovery plans.
38:50
It forces governments, it forces organizations, and it, and it triggers.
38:55
Money and attention to those specific, you know, species in order to get
39:00
them off the list wherever they are.
39:02
I mean, I think, you know, one thing we haven't really dove into, but we, I can
39:06
dive into in the intro is the, the level of, you know, like you're looking at near
39:10
extinction, um, you know, you're looking at, uh, you're looking at, um, endangered,
39:15
vulnerable, you know, least concern.
39:18
These are all different.
39:19
Types of, of settings on the list, let's just say, and, and it's
39:23
like the scale, the closer you are to extinction, the worse it is.
39:26
But if you're like least vulnerable, you know, something
39:28
like, oh yeah, or least concerned.
39:30
We're not totally concerned, but we're watching, you know, we're watching
39:33
the species because there's, there seems to be a trend here and, and, and
39:37
we need to watch, and you mentioned the green sea sea turtle getting up
39:40
listed twice, meaning that it's, you know, it's getting less and less, uh,
39:44
towards extinction and more and more towards like, uh, getting off the list.
39:48
Um, you know, it's, it's interesting when we talk about.
39:50
This up, you know, up listing and then even getting off the list.
39:54
It takes a lot to take an animal off the list, a species off the list because
39:58
there's so much protection in there.
39:59
We wanna make sure that it's good to go.
40:02
Um, do you find, have you ever had to battle or go to litigation, I
40:07
shouldn't say battle, go to litigation?
40:09
Uh, when, for a species that were a, maybe a government entity or someone
40:14
else wants to take a species off list 'cause they think it's doing
40:17
well, just so that they can get.
40:19
Something, something done, you know, from a development aspect, have you
40:23
ever had to do that with Oceania or hear of anybody having to do that?
40:28
Yeah.
40:28
I personally have not had to, uh, fight over delisting, but there have, have
40:32
been moves to delist many species.
40:34
I think wolves is a primary example.
40:37
Mm-hmm.
40:37
Um, there have also been efforts to overrule specific species
40:41
listing through Congress.
40:42
So to get an actual amendment for a species.
40:45
Um, one of the most famous is one of the first, which was really the
40:48
snail darter, which was holding up the Teleco Dam, um, that the Tennessee
40:53
Valley Authority was building.
40:55
And that case went out all the way up to the Supreme Court.
40:58
Um, and then Congress like passed a, a bill to allow the dam to be built and
41:03
they actually moved the snail darter out of the river 'cause it was gonna be
41:06
flooded, um, and to other, other areas.
41:09
I ended up finding the species and more and more rivers after that.
41:13
Um, but you know, there have been attempts to sort of skirt around the
41:17
requirements of listing or to get species, uh, attempts to get species delisted.
41:21
Yeah.
41:22
And you can petition the agency to delist a species.
41:25
So just as we were talking about petitioning the list
41:27
and recently I think it was.
41:30
I might get the date wrong, but, um mm-hmm.
41:32
The snail darter was actually delisted.
41:35
Okay.
41:35
Um, several years ago now.
41:36
And that was petitioned by, um, you know, some of the original people
41:40
who had got the species listed.
41:42
Okay.
41:42
And so it took a long time, but that snail darter came back and they were able to
41:47
actually petition a delist, the species.
41:49
So yeah, we, it can go both ways, but um, yeah, delisting is.
41:54
Something that it is a big decision.
41:57
And just as with listing, we're looking at the whole species.
42:01
So sometimes it might feel like a species is increasing,
42:04
shouldn't it be off the list?
42:05
But there it might be that the threats are still so severe or their habitat is still
42:10
too degraded that we are, we are concerned that that species not going to recover.
42:16
And so that's again that holistic look at the species.
42:19
So it might feel like sometimes we should be.
42:22
You know, moving towards delisting and the agency's required to
42:25
review those every five years.
42:27
Yeah.
42:28
Um, and even after delisting, they have to continue to monitor that
42:31
species for, for five years after.
42:34
So we really do wanna make sure we're making the right decisions here and.
42:39
With about a third of the biodiversity in the us uh, estimated to be at, you
42:43
know, at threat right now at risk.
42:46
I think we're, you know, if anything, we're going to be seeing
42:48
more listings of species, you know, and we need more resources
42:53
for our agencies to be doing that.
42:56
More biologists, more scientists, to be gathering the data, to be
43:00
writing the recovery plans for these species and to make sure that
43:04
we're staying on top of that real biodiversity loss that we're seeing.
43:09
Uh, so important.
43:10
I mean, we've, we've talked about, you know, why the Endangered Species Act is
43:14
in place and how important what, what role and what an important role it plays.
43:18
It just goes to show with that darter you mentioned of, of, you know,
43:21
like somebody could have just said, we're not gonna move this species.
43:24
We're just gonna build the dam.
43:25
If it wasn't on the list, and that species would've, could've been gone, but
43:29
they had, they were forced to move it.
43:30
And all of a sudden it, it does well, uh, in other, in other river systems.
43:34
And it, and it and it, uh, and it doesn't even so, so well that it can be delisted.
43:38
Having these types of laws in this type of legislation plays such
43:42
an important role in the recovery 'cause it forces us to pay attention.
43:47
It forces to slow down any kind of development that might affect that
43:51
population or that species, wherever it is, whether it's oceans, rivers,
43:54
lakes, wherever, or even on the ground.
43:56
And it's such an important aspect of it and it's why that.
43:59
You know, delisting is such a hard thing to do 'cause we're
44:02
very cautious when we do it.
44:04
Uh, and, and you know, we, we make sure that governments play their
44:07
role and do what they need to do.
44:09
And, you know, obviously we're, we're recording this in a time
44:13
where government resources are, are very thin right now on purpose.
44:17
Uh, and it's a, it's trying to allow fossil fuels and other types of natural
44:22
resource development to happen faster.
44:24
And this is why they do it.
44:25
And we need to, um, do as much as we can to ensure that.
44:30
Um, organizations like Oceania Pay can pay attention and to say, Hey, you know,
44:34
hold the governments accountable, making sure they're working with government
44:37
as an industry to say, we can still do this, and, and it still needs to
44:40
be done because it's part of our laws.
44:43
One thing we haven't talked about.
44:44
Is your constituency with, with Oceania.
44:47
The people, the people who are listening to this episode,
44:49
uh, listen to this podcast.
44:51
They always want to get involved.
44:52
They always want to be able to do something.
44:54
And I know this is something that is, is difficult for
44:57
people to completely relate to.
44:59
You know, when we talk about issues like plastic pollution, we can probably play
45:02
more of a. Of a short, shorter term role by reducing our own single use plastics
45:07
in our household and our daily lives.
45:09
But working with, you know, and trying to, uh, support work with Endangered
45:13
Species Act is, is difficult for people to maybe wrap their head around because
45:17
it's that such a, a different, it's kind of like disconnected from our daily lives.
45:21
How would you suggest, Tara, that we could like, uh, the just people,
45:25
whether they live in the US or they live outside the US in their own
45:28
countries, how can they play a role in.
45:31
Uh, helping out organizations like yourselves or even just in
45:35
individually being able to hold governments accountable to, to the ESA?
45:42
Well, one great thing about the ESA is that it has a citizen provision.
45:46
So if you ever feel that the law is being violated, you can actually bring, uh,
45:51
litigation even against the government if you feel that the ESA is being violated.
45:55
Now, that's an extreme step, but that is of course one of the great things
45:58
that we love about the ESA as lawyers.
46:01
Um, but also contact your elected officials.
46:04
Let them know why you care about these species.
46:06
You know, what they mean to you.
46:08
The southern residents off our coast, the southern resident orcas off our
46:11
coast here, have such deep cultural significance in the Pacific Northwest.
46:16
Legislators need to hear about that.
46:17
You know, Congress works for us here in the United States.
46:20
We, we elect them to work for us, and they need to hear that you care about this.
46:24
Mm-hmm.
46:25
There are.
46:25
Continued threats to the Endangered Species Act.
46:28
We have seen many different efforts to weaken the regulation, weaken
46:32
the law, um, you know, business and industry wants to push these through
46:36
so that they don't have to change or modify or halt their developments.
46:41
We've seen those sort of pushes in Congress and we need our constituency,
46:45
this constituency to be speaking up and make sure Congress hears from
46:48
you from the other side to say no.
46:50
Species have value and they add to our economy.
46:54
Yeah.
46:54
I think we have a, you know, we have a billion dollar whale watching
46:58
tourism industry in this country.
47:00
That is nothing to, you know, that's, that's a really important stat and a
47:04
very important driver of our economy.
47:06
So, um, just making sure that they hear from you and they hear that
47:09
other side of the economic argument on, you know, why this matters,
47:14
um, and why it's really part of our cultural heritage here as Americans.
47:17
I love that.
47:18
Thank you so much, Tara.
47:19
This has been a pleasure to have you on the podcast.
47:21
It's such a, uh, you play such an important role in, in working with Oceania
47:26
and helping us not only in, in terms of the courts when you need to, when you
47:29
need to battle, but also, you know, making sure that you know, everybody is following
47:33
the law, the right law, the Endangered Species Act, and other laws that.
47:36
Are enacted in the US and we really appreciate the, the hard work that
47:39
you and your fellow, uh, colleagues at, at Oceania do each and every day.
47:44
So thank you so much for coming on the podcast and, and letting us know.
47:47
We'd love to invite you back and to talk more about what you
47:49
do in, in different aspects.
47:50
Maybe, uh, aside from the, the Endangered Species Act and talk about
47:54
plastics next time, um, like I did with your colleague Christie Levitt.
47:57
So it'd be a lot of fun to to have you back on, and thank you
47:59
so much for, for being here.
48:01
Thank you for having us and for anyone that wants to learn
48:04
more, please go to oceania.org.
48:06
We have tons of ways to get involved.
48:08
Take action.
48:09
Join our our Wavemaker list.
48:11
We'd love to have you in this movement.
48:13
That's awesome.
48:14
Thank you so much.
48:18
Thank you, Tara, for joining us on today's episode of the How
48:20
to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
48:21
It was great to be able to hear about all the success that Ocean
48:24
has had and all of the work that is done to put into protecting specific
48:29
species that are on the endangered species list, and even trying to get
48:33
some that need to be on that list.
48:34
And I just think it's phenomenal.
48:36
I think the conservation success stories that have come from endangered
48:38
species, not only in the US but all over the world, is really, really.
48:42
Important to acknowledge that this is a tool that works.
48:45
These tools bring back species if they are done properly, and
48:49
organizations like Oceana ensure that the government is held accountable
48:53
for that recovery process to happen.
48:56
Something in that I always value with the Endangered Species Act, whether
48:59
it's in US, Canada, or elsewhere.
49:01
Is that the recovery documents or the recovery process that have to be done
49:06
for every species, these recovery documents are extremely important to
49:10
make sure that these species have a plan and can come back from that plan.
49:14
It's really, really important to have that, and it's really great to
49:17
see Oceano hold in the government to account by that, by putting in
49:20
petitions to ensure that they have these produced, and I think it's great.
49:24
Oceania does this all over the world, not just in the us, but
49:26
we're focusing on the US today.
49:28
But if you're in a country that has Oceania I, I highly recommend
49:32
that you look up their site.
49:33
If you go to the main site, oceania.org, you can probably get to their affiliates.
49:37
It's just amazing.
49:38
A lot of times if it's, it's in a specific country, you could put
49:41
Oceania in the country like Oceania, Canada and Google, and it'll come up.
49:44
Or if you're in Europe, you can do Oceania Europe and it'll come up as well.
49:47
Oceania UK I think is a separate one now, but it's really great to
49:51
see Oceania do such great work.
49:52
Tara, I wanna thank you so much for joining us.
49:55
You were great to have on, looking forward to having you back on to talk
49:57
more about litigation, more about avoiding litigation to get these projects done
50:02
and help the government, you know, be held accountable and ensure that these
50:05
species are protected, whether it's the Endangered Species Act or other laws
50:09
like, you know, looking after marine protection from marine pollution.
50:12
So.
50:12
Always wonderful to have somebody from Ocean and especially Tara.
50:15
It was great meeting and great introducing to my audience.
50:17
I can't wait for you to come back.
50:19
If you're listening to this or you're watching this on YouTube, you have
50:21
any questions, I would love to hear from you or you have any comments or
50:25
anything like that, please let me know.
50:27
You can get access to me by DMing me on Instagram at How to Protect
50:31
the Ocean, or you can just leave a comment in the YouTube comment.
50:35
Or you can go to speak up for blue.com/contact.
50:39
That's it.
50:39
Speak up for blue.com/contact.
50:41
Fill the form, goes right to my personal email and try and
50:44
answer them as soon as possible.
50:45
And again, I wanna thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of
50:48
the How to Protect the Ocean Podcast.
50:49
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin from the true nor strong and free.
50:52
Have a great day.
50:53
We'll talk to you next time and happy conservation.