Latest / Aspergers & Autism Podcast [The Aspie World] AuDHD / Discussing Autism Culture And Terms

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Discussing Autism Culture And Terms · Aspergers & Autism Podcast [The Aspie World] AuDHD

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You have arrived. Welcome to the Aspy world.
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Here's where we talk about anything and everything ASD in
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an upbeat and informative way. And now here's your man on the
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spectrum, your autism ambassador, Daniel Morgan Jones.
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Hey guys, welcome back to another podcast.
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Whoo, these are awesome smashing these out and I'm loving all of
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you guys listen to the podcast every single day.
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That's right, we release an episode every single day.
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So if you're listening to this podcast and you haven't already
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hit subscribe, make sure you're subscribing here on YouTube and
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on your podcast app, be it, you know, Spotify or Apple or
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whatever, because I can see you're listening, but you ain't
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subscribing guys, what's going on?
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Welcome back. My name is Dan and I have Watson
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HDLCD and dyslexia. And I'm joined today by an
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awesome guest. This is Doctor Angela Laurier,
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who Blair said that right, who is a Co host, Co host of the
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Autistic Culture podcast, who is also a late diagnosed autistic
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person herself. And your special interest is non
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fiction to help almost 2000 entrepreneurs write, publish and
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promote their books, right, which is really interesting.
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We'll get into that in a minute. So doc, tell us what's your PhD
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and I want to know. It's in communications actually,
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and specifically because I'm autistic, I focused on social
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justice and social change. So I wrote a dissertation that
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was about how we create more social change through live
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performance, so music and theatre, and how that can shift
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people's minds more than recorded things.
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Although now I recorded a podcast for a living so I'm not
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sure what that. Means, well, that's outlet,
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isn't it? But you know, that's
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interesting. I I have a diploma in performing
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arts and I have a national diploma in music technology and
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performance. So yeah, really cool.
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I'm really into that. And also I've just released a, a
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membership course called chaos to confidence.
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It's all about communication, right?
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We're a massive partner about communication.
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I love that. So let's let's get into that.
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Like so how did you get started with kind of like creating
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content, like e-books and stuff like that?
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Like what? What's your?
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How did you get into it? Yeah, well, theatre was one of
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my first special interests, so I was doing shows from the time I
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was really young and then I was writing books.
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So I wrote my first book when I was 7 and paid my way through
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university writing people's term papers.
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So I used to charge $10 a page and wrote people's and did
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people's homework for them, which was a good way to get
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through college and pay my bills.
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And and then I started as a ghost writer when I was 20.
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And so creating content has been really easy for me.
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Having relationships with people has been harder.
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So my relationships with books have always gone very well.
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I don't know. I know some people be watching
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this on video because I follow you on YouTube.
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So behind me is my Museum of books that I've published.
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I love helping other people get their books done.
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And then I also write my own book.
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Books and podcasting is something that I've been doing
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to help people write books. But the Autistic Culture podcast
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started a little over a year ago.
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I think there's so much great content out there from autistic
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advocates that is like, why do things happen this way or why do
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we have communication challenges?
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But our podcast really focuses on the positive aspects of what
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an autistic culture is. So we're not trying to like fix
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any problems, like other people can fix problems or explain
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problems. We're really trying to celebrate
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autistic accomplishments and autistic.
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I love that. I love how you're focusing on
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like the good stuff because it's so much like there's so much
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like not really focusing on the bad stuff, but focusing on
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things that don't really matter. I mean, I've been in heat
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discussions about the term aspect is and ask me high, high
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function and I kind of just get bogged down with it and I'm
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like, guys, this isn't helping the movement.
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Like this isn't helping, you know, the stuff that's really
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needing to happen. And I think promoting positive
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attitudes within the community is a really interesting thing
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that needs to happen and just move away from.
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I want to, I want to take that to the next level too.
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This might be controversial, but think if you are getting a
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diagnosis because you need accommodations in work or school
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or disability payments or something like that.
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An official diagnosis is great, but what I think we should be
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moving towards is just identifying neurodivergent
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cultures and being able to recognize that.
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So I don't need to diagnose someone as Irish Ray, if I see
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someone playing a boron, even if it's, I don't know, an African
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guy playing a boron, I could be like, oh, a boron that's part of
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Irish culture. Or if I see someone eating a
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cannoli, I can say, oh, that's part of Italian culture.
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And so my goal is to have everyone, all people, it's a
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neuro diverse world, be able to recognize autistic culture as
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well as they could recognize Irish culture or Italian culture
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or Nigerian culture. 100% I think like, you know, it's
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interesting, isn't it that like autistic individuals, the
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Internet has given us this ability to come out of our
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shells and and and and, you know, congregate on on a place
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giving us our third space, right.
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And I think that has developed its own culture, you know, I
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mean, like, like that fidget gadgets and our books and, you
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know, all, all those kind of things.
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Yeah, exactly. I.
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Have fidget gadgeting right here.
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But like it's, it's given us something completely different.
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And I think that's interesting because everything has it's
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culture, right? Everything has a, a culture and
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culture stem from somewhere. But what I would, what I think
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we do need to try to carefully with is, is dismissing the
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profound issues that many associated with digital face
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rather than just being, oh, it's culture based.
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Well, it's not culture based, It's it's support based and or
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it's help based. And I think like there's a fine
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line that we need to kind of walk down here.
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And This is why I think that, like, you know, labeling
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everything as ASD in the DSM was a smart move to get everybody
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the accessible support. But I think it was a very
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experimental move in terms of how we understand the layers and
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levels of people who are affected, you know what I mean?
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So like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, unintended
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consequences for sure. Like I no one was trying to do
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that. But I mean, the question that I
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would ask is, are there things like support needs that need to
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be addressed that are separate from the conversation about
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autistic culture and about neurotypes?
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Because to me it's both and right?
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Like. Yes, it is.
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Yeah. I'm Italian American.
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There are many Italian Americans that have lots of different
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support needs of all neurotypes and all of those should be
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addressed. But our humanity as autistic
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people is thrown into question by having the the DSM at all
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like pathologizing the neurotype, like we don't
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pathologize other aspects to me of people's biology in the way.
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And we certainly did like with queerness, that would have been
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the DSM at one point. And we're like, oh, wait, like
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people that are queer have different support needs if you
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know, and depending on where you live and like what your other
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medical conditions are and being having an autistic neurotype
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makes you predisposed to many things.
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Lupus, Eulers, Daniels, like so many medical.
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Yeah, yeah, loads of things. But they have diagnosis.
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Like they have medical codes. They should be addressed.
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I think, yeah, but I think like you're right in the in the, in
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the terms of things like, yeah, I mean, you can't just say that
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someone's homosexual, you know, they have something wrong with
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them, you know, like that's ridiculous.
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Why the earth of the DSM even try and treat somebody's
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homosexual? So I just deal with it, right?
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People look gay like whatever, you know, my brother's gay.
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I love gay people. The gay seems great, like who,
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you know, whatever. But you know, in terms of in
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terms of autism, if you go back to like the Lorna wink type of
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stuff, you know, and they talk about the triad of impairment,
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right? And, and I think we, we
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fundamentally need to not take away from the fact that it is a
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disability. Then it has many factions.
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So, you know, my areas of difficulty in things like
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navigation and, and interruption in, in, in real life, in real
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time, you know, understanding, you know, Alexa Feimer,
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understanding conversation with people.
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I, I don't really know that well when I'm not prepared for that
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conversation and things like that, you know, like, and, and
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they're really big struggles yet.
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My friend ASA, excuse me, his daughter Abby, you know, she has
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a hard time going to the bathroom on her own.
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You know, she can't actually verbalise herself through speech
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and she's on the spectrum. So we're both on the spectrum
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and the DSM would say we both have the same diagnosis, which
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is technically untrue. And I know what you're saying
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that like, yes. And so it's yes, you have the
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same diagnosis, but then you also have these other things
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like, you know, executive function disorder.
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Maybe she's got global learning delay.
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There's maybe a bunch of other things that come into it, right.
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But but fundamentally what what binds us together is this kind
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of a triad of impairment of communication, social
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understanding. And I forgot what the other one
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was. I think it's like social
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imagination or something, whatever the triad of impound
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is. And I think we need to still
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keep close to that core of it because I think initially that's
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why they put the levels in it, right?
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You got level 1, level 2-3 autistic, right, which it, it
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kind of explains the idea. But then again, there's loads
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you got the ICIDIDCI think is the other one right?
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The other kind of a diagnostic kind of way to do it, you got
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the disco, you got the ADOS, you got.
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There's a bunch of different ways, right, that you can go
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through the whole thing and everyone goes through them all
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when you do a diagnosis. Right.
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I think we should. I think to me, the way I see it
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is like it's yes and right. Like it's having those things
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like, yes, it's autism level 1 or whatever, but also adding in
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there's cultural aspect to it. You know, there's, there's we
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should identify the fact that there's culture within that and
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that there's the culture isn't a disability, It's the things that
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are impacting your life Rack. It's the point.
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That's exactly the point. And when we when we merge those
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things, we miss so much that when we celebrated about our
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culture that we can, yeah, it gets lost.
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Like there are things that we can leverage.
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One of my favorite stories, I know you're into music, and so
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am I. One of my favorite stories is
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the story of Questlove. So I don't know.
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Do you know Questlove is aspy? No, I did not know this.
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OK, so he and, and obviously we know it's highly heritable and
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so probably his parents are too. But here's what happens.
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He's growing up. His parents are musicians, and
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all the time Questlove wants to spin, like spinning in circles
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reception, right? And so his dad, when he's like 2
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years old, gives him a turntable and a bunch of his old Motown
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Records. And he's like, spin these kid
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right now. Questlove, if you don't know who
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he is, is one of the world's best DJs.
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He's an amazing musician, incredible drummer.
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And he is also the world's best historian of African American
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music because when he was little, he was also hyperlexic.
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And so he was reading and memorizing all the labels on the
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records. He was spinning.
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So his stem of spinning became his special interest and now he
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has the world's biggest museum. It's actually already been pre
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donated to the Smithsonian when he died.
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So he has this incredible legacy.
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And this came from not pathologizing or levelizing his
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spinning, trying to get him to sock stop spinning or saying
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hey, you get a cookie if you don't spin instead of his dad
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was like, here are some records that you can beat up and scratch
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to hell. And, you know, that sort of
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acceptance of the culture in their family came easy, but it's
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not easy in the culture because we see that behavior.
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We're like, we must fix it. Exactly.
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I think you're so right. And I think this is where this
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is where the issue between kind of like where ABA becomes really
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sketchy, right? So the applied behavioural
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analysis, when it first started, I think it was Eric Lovas,
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right, who started this year or he was one of the kind of like
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first people who started doing this stuff, right?
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And what they were trying to do is similar to how kind of like
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Leo Kenner was thinking about autism, right?
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He was like, it's got to be the mothers.
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Some others didn't love their kids.
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Now it's a refrigerator. Refrigerator.
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It's like, no, dude, because their their intelligence of the
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the subject was completely minimal because they had less
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access to communicating and networking, right, which is
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understandable. I don't hold them to a caliber
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because they didn't know, because you know, you go back to
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like 1920, everyone was slapping their wives.
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That's not a good thing, but it happened because it was that
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sign of the time, right? See, with Leo Cannon and Hans us
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wedgie, those people were doing crazy, awful things because they
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didn't really know much else. And it's really I'm not, I'm not
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kind of giving a a, a gel freak. I'm just saying this is how
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culture exists, right? And then when you look at like
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ABA therapy, they will, I think it was like in the, the maybe
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2010 to 2013, they were like, oh, this is really weird, like
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sketchy stuff. Like maybe we should pivot away
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from the stuff that's a bit kind of like cruel and look, use
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things that that work. And so you're absolutely right.
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Somebody's stimming. You wouldn't implement A
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behavioural kind of therapy on that stim because, well, it's
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not hurting anyone. But my friend Acer when his, his
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daughter Abby wants to go to the toilet, like she couldn't go to
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the toilet in the room, but she used ABA therapy to be able to
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go to the toilet, right? So ABA has improved her
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condition of life, which is quite fascinating.
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So it depends what you're what you're trying to like
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pathologize. If you're pathologizing
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something that would improve a condition of somebody's life to
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urge them towards an existence, then do that.
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But if it's just doing it because you want them to be
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normal, then it's different, you know, because Abby loves her
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independence of using the bathroom room, you know, so
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that's a good thing. But she wouldn't like if you
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took a stimuli, you know what I mean?
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So like, and I think we really need to kind of just black and
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white this because a lot of people say it is the most
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harmful thing in the world. I'm like, well, it isn't.
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It used to be. It has certain prospects of it
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that are just terrible, that are just conditioning like, you
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know, Pavlo's dogs. But then the other side of it is
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that you go, well, actually, you can actually create behaviors in
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people to help improve their life and condition, which make
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them more independent, you know, because you've got to think
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like, you know where? And I know I just share that
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fear. You know, if you're a parent,
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you share a fear what's going to happen to my kids when I die,
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especially if they have profound disabilities.
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And if you can find a way to encourage them to become more
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independent or create a habit or behaviour doesn't come on, I
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think there's nothing wrong with that as long as it doesn't
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increase encroach on human rights violations.
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You know, as long as you're not like whipping something or wipe
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their butt or something, you know, like it's not ridiculous,
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like. Hazing them, We're just they.
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Yeah, of course they did. And that's what I'm saying.
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Like, you know, you're looking at our globus and, you know, and
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all these people, we're just doing kind of like, what?
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More barbaric things? But we'd break a person down and
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then recondition them to understand what they're saying
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so they could repeat the come on, repeat the come on.
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Like here, if we go from the like, fundamental understanding
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of this is a nerve type, like you can't change my eye color,
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you can't change if I'm gay. You know, type, it's what it is,
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right? Yeah.
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Right. So the people who did ABA
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founded ABA, also founded gay conversion therapy.
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Very ineffective, like very low. You're not going to make my
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brown eyes blue. You're not going to make me
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straight if I'm gay and. That's a low intelligent.
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My neuro type. Right.
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Yeah, They didn't understand. Yeah.
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And so if you can change that underlying philosophy and accept
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autistic and neurodivergent people for who we are and then
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say what support needs do you have that I can help with?
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What are all the tools? And it's not a system, it's
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individual to the person and it's individual to the
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circumstance that that's the problem with the levels.
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Like I'm categorized as level 1, right?
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Asperger. I was diagnosed Asperger's, now
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it's ASD level. Yeah.
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However, I went through very bad period of autistic burnout where
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I could not leave my closet and I just laid on the floor of my
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closet and couldn't speak for three months.
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And that is not level 1, right? If I, what if I was diagnosed
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that day? Would I be diagnosed as level 2?
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Like so it changes. You're not just like at a level,
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there are different times, there are different incidents in your
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life. And that's why I think we should
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see people as people. So if that brought umbrella is
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that this is a culture, a neurotype, A physical
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characteristic that is not going to change that doesn't require a
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pill or a diet or I don't know, colloidal mercury, silver or
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whatever, whatever. Little.
17:07
Snake oil they want to give me. That's not going to change who I
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am fundamentally. And that's why I support, you
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know, identity first language so much so.
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What's that? What is sorry identity, first of
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which can you just Well, that means.
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Yeah, calling myself autistic rather than saying I have
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autism. So like if I had a cancer
17:29
diagnosis or if I had a wart, I would say I have a wart or I
17:33
have cancer, but I don't have autism.
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I am autistic. Right.
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Like that's just, I don't, I don't, I don't disavow that as
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some separate part of me that needs to be fixed.
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It's just, I'm also 54. Like it just, it is just a fact
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of my being. But would you say that like it's
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wrong too, because I use it to I don't really care Like I
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somebody says that they are artistically how autism.
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I don't really care because to me, like it doesn't make any
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difference you who you are, regardless if you said it in
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Chinese, Russian, British, I don't care.
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Like sure doesn't make a difference how you.
18:06
Are That's why I said. That's why I use Identity first
18:10
language because it's important to.
18:12
Who you are, but as more of your ethics, right, you know,
18:14
personal kind of ethics. Right.
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Yeah, but I think people should do.
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I think people should do whatever the hell they want.
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With 100% and I said this, I said this the other day and I
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was talking to it, people were saying like, oh, you know,
18:25
because people that this whole hands Asperger thing, like could
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I say sometimes I'll say yeah, you know, I was like Asperger's
18:30
syndrome. I'm like, I don't use that term
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not much anymore. Not because I don't want to,
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just because I feel like, you know, people understand what ASD
18:38
term ASD now, what's investment solid.
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I think they understand that a lot more now, but before they'd
18:42
have to they'd understand, oh, aspect is oh, well, that means
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you're kind of like you have less support needs and you know,
18:46
all those things. They used to get it a bit more,
18:48
but now they get it with ASD. And one of the things I always
18:51
say and people said, oh, you know, Hazard is Nazi.
18:54
Yeah, maybe he he did some, you know, or he did do some shady
18:57
things. Hazard, you know, it
18:59
facilitated, you know, Nazi support regimes.
19:01
He was never really an officially Nazi party, remember.
19:03
But the reason that they called it Asperger Center was a lot of
19:06
the research that he did, which is a valuable research.
19:08
Like, you know, yes, 50% of the stuff was atrociously eugenic
19:12
and and kind of like, you know, euthanizing kids, which is
19:16
awful, right? The guy needs to go to hell.
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But the rest of the stuff, it still came out some really
19:20
interesting stuff like, you know, like, let's put it this
19:22
way. In Germany right now, people
19:24
still use the Autobahn that was built by Hitler.
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People still use VW cars because the conception of the idea
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between between Porsche and Hitler was this idea of the
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people's car, right. Or we're not saying they did
19:36
everything they did was was valid.
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I'm not saying everything that was awful.
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I'm saying some parts have to remain because it's just part of
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it. It kind of like Hams ostrich's
19:43
name when Lorna wings at a look some of the research I have
19:47
Asperger did just valid in this point because he's looking at,
19:49
you know, psychoanalysis and then we can apply that to this
19:52
diagnosis of ASD level 1, right. We say Asperger syndrome, which
19:54
is where the term was coined. It wasn't coined because they
19:56
want to celebrate him. Nothing to do with the top fact.
19:59
But then all the kind of the news came out that they he you
20:01
know, he he may or may not have been heavily involved in Nazis.
20:04
We don't actually know a lot of the factual information because
20:06
it's a bit sketchy in 1942, right.
20:08
But this is interesting. This is the point I was going to
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get. To Yeah, yeah, I.
20:13
Allow people to be want to be called.
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They she, them, zem, ZI don't really care.
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Whatever you want to identify with, call me.
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So why should it be any different for autistic people?
20:20
Why are sitting people bullying people for using the term
20:22
asperges right when I have to call them these, them and Z?
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We'll just say, OK, you can call some asperges.
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Nobody cares. Right, I would agree with that.
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I mean respect people in general and I OK this seems.
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Yeah, this is funny. To humanity.
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Yeah, and, and somebody tried to pull up this holy racist card
20:39
thing saying, oh, you know, you wouldn't know if you weren't a
20:42
Romani, Romani descent or Jewish descent, right?
20:45
I said, well, that's funny because I am Romani descent, my
20:47
father and grandmother Romani, right.
20:48
So, you know, and I use the most bitches.
20:51
I get offended by it, you know what I mean?
20:52
So like, people don't know by heritage.
20:54
People think I'm just a pasty white guy, but I'm not.
20:56
You don't have a mixed heritage, you know, my family from the
20:58
Balkans and and Romani kind of like, you know, that area.
21:01
So. Yeah, it it so the people don't
21:03
know that just because I look white doesn't mean that I I'm,
21:06
I'm Caucasian, you know what I mean?
21:07
There's no, we don't know heritage feels really
21:09
interesting. But yeah, you're absolutely
21:10
right about the whole identifying like we are
21:13
accepting now because we're a lot.
21:14
We should be accepting because we're just people doing stuff
21:17
for people, right? I thought.
21:19
That's totally true. And the other thing I always
21:22
like knowing me, I can sort of only speak for me, is like if I
21:27
were in Hans Asperger's position, I would have spoken
21:33
out and I would have been killed.
21:36
How did you was that Anna good? Who said the whole?
21:37
Time for any of the research was done.
21:40
So I mean, I guess being killed would be better.
21:46
I mean he. I would have said I I
21:48
personally, but that's your personal choice though, right?
21:50
Right. I, I mean, I don't know, it's
21:51
like he did, he did save. I know a lot of people died
21:56
because of him, but he also saved some people that maybe
22:00
wouldn't have been saved. And like, it's so hard to judge.
22:03
I I. Mean it's a different size.
22:04
It's all the time, Yeah, just. To judge it.
22:07
Yeah, being American right now at a time where there is a lot
22:12
going on in America and I feel like there are places where I've
22:18
taken a stand, including moving to England where I was like, I
22:22
cannot participate in this system.
22:25
So maybe handed Asperger's could have, I don't know, moved to
22:28
Argentina or something, but like, to make their own
22:32
decision. Not everyone who feels the way I
22:35
do can move out of America. Not everybody can quit their job
22:39
not. And so it's sort of a place of
22:41
privilege to look back and say, well, he was a Nazi and let's
22:45
like, not use his name because what were the available options?
22:49
Yeah, what were even not do the work get killed and not do the
22:53
work call Hitler and change his mind it.
22:57
Isn't and it's funny, it's funny.
22:59
I'm actually going to do, I'm going to do we're going to wrap
23:01
this up to you guys. I'm sorry we're going on a bit
23:02
of a Hamsaw switch thing here, but I think it's super important
23:04
right now. But you know, I'm actually doing
23:06
a long form factual info video all about this because I'm going
23:10
through the stuff that, you know, Byron Caron and and and
23:14
Silverman. Did you know that paper they
23:16
they published? Because I want to go through
23:18
that and they did. There was another book about how
23:20
does that switch industry of death or what it was called?
23:22
And there's a bunch of different things.
23:23
I'm not going to go through all of that because I think people
23:27
are are getting half cocked information.
23:28
But I'm also going to cover things like Hugo Boss.
23:31
You know, Fanta, Siemens electronics, they build the gas
23:33
chambers. We still use Siemens electronics
23:35
phones. Hugo Boss made the right, the
23:37
the Third Reich uniforms. We still, you know, there's
23:40
there's a whole sketchy pass because you know, Fanta people
23:43
don't know this, but Fanta was created in Nazi Germany for the
23:46
Nazi party because they didn't have access to the other
23:48
ingredients because of the sanctions for on Germany right
23:50
from the western, the western governments.
23:53
So they had to make orange juice basically anyway.
23:55
And and the so we still use fountain, but nobody has a big
23:58
stink about it because it was a it was a thing in the past that
24:01
was like. It doesn't mean that because
24:03
it's delicious. Yeah, and it's nice like, but it
24:05
doesn't mean it doesn't, it doesn't mean that because you
24:07
drink, you know, or drive a Volkswagen or you drive on the
24:09
autoban, which was used to transport people to kill.
24:11
This is horrendous, right? But we still use the autoban in
24:14
Germany because it's just, it's there.
24:17
It's a part of history, it's part of what happened.
24:18
So I have a question for you. Are people like calling you a
24:22
Nazi for not changing? Not call me a Nazi, but they're
24:25
but they they're calling me out saying you need to change name
24:27
you shouldn't use it telling me what to do with the term and I
24:30
think I guess come on like you know, first of all, the term
24:32
aspy is a cutesy version from Asperger doesn't actually say
24:35
Asperger's Aspy is a completely different term, right?
24:37
It could mean any the Aspy world, something I, I created
24:40
years ago. And anyway, my company's called
24:43
Tao Media. You know, that's my company.
24:45
We just call the Aspy world YouTube channel, right?
24:46
So people, people call me out, dude, you go on TikTok, you're
24:49
on Instagram and you type in, you know, you'll find there's
24:52
stress and stress on it. And I think there's so many
24:55
people, I don't know, people have bogged down with it and I
24:57
they're worried about it. They talk about it and it's
24:59
like, OK, we can have your own opinion on it.
25:00
But at the end of the day, dude, like it doesn't really matter.
25:03
What matters to me and the Aspy world is I'm like, OK, there's
25:06
like millions of people who are autistic who haven't got access
25:09
to accessibility technology. I want to change that.
25:11
There's millions statistic individuals who are undiagnosed
25:14
who need access to support. I'm going to change, yeah.
25:15
There's a problem. Millions and.
25:17
Millions, 52 million people in a market cut was a doctor because
25:19
they were health care insurance, right?
25:20
Oh, that's believe me. So let me tell you all about it,
25:22
Yeah. You know, I'm trying those
25:25
things. The things keep me up at night
25:26
and I'll sit there awake like, oh, I used to tell asperges
25:28
today, somebody's going to cry. No, it'll be case like that
25:31
doesn't matter to me because it doesn't make a change.
25:33
Somebody says the same Asperges on your diversion, but nothing
25:36
changes. But when you give an autistic
25:38
person who is non speaking, who has struggling in communication
25:41
a tablet with a an accessibility app on it could change their
25:45
life then. So that's the difference I'm
25:47
trying to make. Anyway.
25:48
I could rumble on phrase. I'm sorry I didn't mean to run
25:50
it. I have to go.
25:51
I have another meeting to get into.
25:52
This has been amazing. Angela, where can people find
25:55
more about you? Like what how do we get in?
25:57
You know people want to find you.
25:59
What links about the show notes? Yep, we've got a podcast and a
26:02
newsletter at autisticculturepodcast.com.
26:07
There's a sub stack over there and a whole treasure trove.
26:10
So if you want to know more about Questlove or Eminem or
26:15
Steve Jobs or Dino Nuggets, we've got a lot of autistic
26:20
culture resources. So you can celebrate our
26:22
neurotype dude. That's awesome.
26:24
I love that. And yes, Steve jails for a guy.
26:27
OK, I will leave all those all the links, anything to do with
26:32
Angela's kind of organization and and her her work.
26:35
I'm going to get her to send me over an e-mail with all the cool
26:37
stuff. And I'll leave them in the
26:38
description of this video and in the show notes of this podcast.
26:41
Guys, it's been amazing. Thank you so much for joining
26:43
me, Sir. Angela.
26:44
Thank you. Hey, guys.
26:48
Thank you so much for checking out this podcast.
26:50
Make sure you are subscribed because there are people
26:52
listening right now who are not subscribed to this podcast.
26:54
I can see you. Make sure you subscribe.
26:56
OK guys, see you in the next one IECE.