Latest / The Payments Shed / Ep. 50 - Oceanpayment - Designing Fintech for Global Markets: Culture, Compliance and Commercial Reality unpacked

Transcript

Ep. 50 - Oceanpayment - Designing Fintech for Global Markets: Culture, Compliance and Commercial Reality unpacked · The Payments Shed

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  Welcome to the Payment Shed podcast, the weekly podcast that
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  dives into the big topics, trends and people shaping the
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  world's of payments, fintech and business leadership with your
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  two Co hosts, myself, Grant Evans and Justin Hanna.
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  Welcome back to the Payment Shed podcast.
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  Today we are joined by Dan Owens, chief strategy officer at
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  Ocean Payment. Dan, welcome to the Payment
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  Shed. Thanks for having me, great to
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  be here. Please can you tell us a little
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  bit about yourself, your career in payments and and what you're
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  doing at Ocean Payment currently?
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  Yeah, absolutely. So I suppose my, my career in
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  payments is a, probably a little bit different to most.
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  Umm, I entered this mid 30s actually, umm, I spent between
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  15 and 16 years in non payments, umm, in financial services, but
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  very traditional started in insurance as an insurance
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  broker. Umm, so heavily regulated
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  market, umm, in, in Ireland, in Dublin, uh, when I started and
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  umm, quite quite boring actually when I look back at it now, but
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  I think fundamentally it gave me the, the foundations one working
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  in regulated market, but also dealing with B to B.
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  You know, ultimately as a broker, you were there to, to,
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  to deal with businesses and solve complex challenges.
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  And then in 20/15/2016, I entered the, the payments world,
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  having done five years previous with a tax technology business.
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  And I suppose that was my entrance into the, to the
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  fintech landscape and dealing with a lot of Fortune 5 hundreds
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  dealing globally with businesses.
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  And I joined the Pay Safe group where I worked for, for three
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  years as a director of sales. And, and I suppose that's where,
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  where my, my career started. I did a couple of stints at a
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  few startups, worked with a European and UK acquirer here in
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  London before making the move to Hong Kong this time last year.
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  Just coming up on my my anniversary where I joined Ocean
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  Payment as Chief Strategy Officer.
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  So big professional and personal shift obviously got young
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  family. So you have you found that
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  transition going from Europe over to to Asia?
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  Yeah, so I suppose a little bit daunting to to to begin with.
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  You know, we, we thought long and hard about it.
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  Our kids are are 96 and 3. So if we were going to make it
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  an international move, I think the time was was right to do so.
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  My wife was offered a a move with her employer as she works
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  for AUS Investment Bank and it just seemed like the right time.
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  So yeah, a little bit daunting, particularly for me because the
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  the payment landscape is of course is very different in Hong
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  Kong. You know, things over the last
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  few years have have changed significantly where a lot of
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  Hong Kong businesses are focusing towards mainland China
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  and a lot of the global fintechs have moved to Singapore.
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  And I think this was, was post COVID actually.
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  So a lot of the expat community would have either moved to, to
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  Singapore or actually went back home or to, to, to, to other
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  areas post COVID. So it was a little bit daunting.
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  But looking back now, I think it was a fantastic move both both
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  professionally and personally. How have you found the kind of
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  business world differs out there in terms of speed, structure,
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  decision making? Has that been a big difference
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  for you? Yeah, it's, it's, it's
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  fascinating. So you know, prior, prior to
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  moving, when, when I knew we were going, I did a lot of, as
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  you do a lot of research, you know, how is it going to be
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  different? And you know, when I moved, I
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  didn't know what type of business I was going to join.
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  Is it going to be a Hong Kong business?
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  Would it be an, you know, a Western business with a Hong
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  Kong office? Would it be, you know, a
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  Singapore business with a, with a Hong Kong office?
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  And, you know, in the end, I've, I've joined a global
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  organization which has deep roots in mainland China, in
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  Shenzhen with Hong Kong and Singapore licenses.
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  And actually it's a, it's a real melting pot because what we do
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  is we get this global approach. You know, we have a, a within
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  the organization, we have about 350 people that sit within
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  Shenzhen. Our merchants are typically
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  coming from mainland China with entities all over the world,
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  often entities within Hong Kong or Singapore, but international
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  entities. So when we, when we look at how
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  our merchants behave, but also how Ocean payment behaves as
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  APSP, it's not hugely different. But some of the nuances are umm,
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  decision making. You mentioned there, umm, in the
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  West. My experience, particularly
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  within fintech has been that, you know, over the years it
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  changed. Everybody gets involved in a
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  decision at all levels and that's often why things don't
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  get done right. And you guys will know you,
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  you've probably worked in some of these businesses where
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  everyone has an opinion and in a way that can be good.
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  Everybody has a bit of input, but sometimes people have an
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  opinion, but they haven't almost earned the, you know, that,
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  that, that, that right to have an opinion because they've
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  either entered a business or maybe they don't have enough
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  experience or enough knowledge. So it creates a lot of noise in
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  in China. You don't really get that there.
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  There's definitely a hierarchy. The leaders of the business will
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  make the decisions because they have the experience and
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  ultimately it sits squarely with them to make that decision.
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  I think there's a more of an acknowledgement than there is,
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  particularly in Western fintech where certainly at a lower level
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  in the business where people maybe have only been with a
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  company a year or two, you know, maybe quite new to their
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  careers, they may not be on board with decisions.
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  So there's a bit of a churn. People maybe don't you know, are
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  not fully committed. What I've seen in in China, both
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  within fintech, but also with our merchants, decisions are
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  made, there's context given everybody's on board and they
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  action those decisions and and work just gets done.
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  The speed at which work gets done is 10X compared to the
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  West. Once that decision is made, come
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  hell or hi Walter, the milestone will be hit.
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  So it's, it's a it's a different culture in terms of, of of the
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  speed. Also, there's an acknowledgement
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  within within Chinese businesses.
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  I think that if you get something wrong, it's OK, You
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  just go again, You keep going until you find a solution.
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  There's no embarrassment. OK, we made a mistake here.
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  OK, fine. Don't worry.
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  There's a calmness and I think that's something that's I'm
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  enjoying. You know, not every decision we
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  make at Ocean Payment is a correct 1.
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  You know, we might say, let's go down this route, let's check
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  something out. Let's let's look at this partner
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  that might fit within our ecosystem.
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  We'll try it if it doesn't work, fine when we move and we
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  iterate. And I think a lot of businesses
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  talk about operating that way, but not a lot of them actually
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  execute and, and, and action those, those decisions and, and,
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  and, you know, set themselves up to be, we're agile.
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  And if it doesn't work, remove ultimately in the West, somebody
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  takes the blame, right? That's my experience.
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  And talk to us a little more kind of on ocean payment as a
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  business. Great to understand more about
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  them. Yeah.
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  So, so Ocean Payment is a global PSP licensed in Hong Kong and
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  Singapore. We're in the process of
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  obtaining our Luxembourg license, which is coming shortly
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  as well in Asia. We, we operate in Hong Kong and
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  Singapore as a payment facilitator and have been doing
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  so since 2015, so 10 years as a pay FAC.
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  The company is very much structured as a pay fact.
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  We've got a large risk and compliance team.
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  We've got you know, I think over 40 people between chargeback
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  management, onboarding, risk and compliance, KYC etcetera.
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  We operate about 500 different Apms and I will come back to the
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  term Apms and I'm using that now.
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  But hold that thought. So you know, Asia is, is heavily
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  you know local payment method driven.
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  But of course right across Europe, our merchants are are
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  Chinese background. So they're selling everywhere,
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  right, selling across 200 different businesses.
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  We also issue, so we launched our issuing business in April of
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  this year, a soft launch and we're extending that now.
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  So we operate under our own Hong Kong bin.
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  We issue MasterCard virtual cards.
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  We do a lot within the travel industry.
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  So we work with some large airlines in a pack as well.
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  So we've seen obviously a, a, a need and a demand from OTAs
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  looking to work with those stuff from a virtual card perspective,
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  you know, and as an organization, we are very much a
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  global business rooted in China, Hong Kong and Singapore
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  licenses, as I said, Luxembourg coming.
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  But our, our, I suppose our USP is, we're bridging the gap
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  between Chinese background merchants and and the West and
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  that's right across US, Middle East, Latam and Europe.
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  And when, when we talk about fintechs in Europe and, and, and
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  the US, it's mostly start-ups or disruptors, right?
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  When we talk about fintechs in China and, and in APAC, it's
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  more kind of around infrastructure and integration.
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  How do you know that changes the way that that Ocean Payment
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  works in regards to having that global footprint you mentioned
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  there, it's work with Ocean Payment to expand to the rest of
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  the world. How does that work for you guys?
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  Yeah. So, so interestingly, you know,
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  if we take some something like airlines for example, if you
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  look at the airline industry in Europe, it's dominated by legacy
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  platforms, right? So you've got your Sabers and
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  your Amadeus and these systems very similar to like the
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  insurance industry in the UK, large legacy platforms in Asia
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  because of the deep talent pool from from a tech and an AI
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  perspective, a lot of our merchants will own their own
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  tech stacks and build their own tech stacks and we'll be less
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  reliant on platforms. So that's a, a, a, a noticeable
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  difference that, that we see. But of course, when we're trying
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  to bridge that gap and they open a, an entity in the UK or in
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  Germany or France and they build our website to target European
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  consumers, it's very different. You know, you could go on a
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  website in China and we've all been there.
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  You know, it's perception. You'll go on to this website and
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  you'll say, I'm not quite sure about this website.
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  There's a lot of colors, there's a lot of pop ups.
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  And actually, if you, if you, if you go to China and even in Hong
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  Kong, that's how e-commerce is driven that they were there.
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  The, the, the expectations of the consumers, that doesn't
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  translate to, to, to Europe. So also as a, a, as APSP, we're
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  more than just providing cross-border payments, we're
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  advising. So making sure they're working
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  with the right acquirers, making sure that they understand how to
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  position themselves as merchants.
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  So it's very much an advisory as well as being a a APSP.
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  So over a decade as a, as a pay FAC in market, would you say,
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  because I always look at the US and think they're kind of a
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  little bit more advanced or they've been doing it for longer
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  than us. Is it the same sort of flavor in
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  in a pack as far as the pay FAC ecosystem is concerned?
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  Yeah, I, I, I think probably not as mature as, as the US, but
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  again, I think ocean payment is probably not typical in Asia.
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  We're quite unique. We're, I think as I said
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  earlier, we're, we're, we're like a melting pot of
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  everything. We take the best of each
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  jurisdiction and we, we almost dissect what are others doing in
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  different markets and we bring that internally and we
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  restructure it and we model it. So absolutely the US is, is, is
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  more advanced things like merchant of record pay FAC.
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  But from a ocean payment perspective, I think we're
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  probably one of the most advanced when it comes to
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  payment facilitation. And do you think with some of
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  the into what the AI innovation and those product LED teams, do
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  you think things move a little bit quicker in the APAP market
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  as far as integrations, merchants set up or the growth
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  of businesses that are using payments as a big enabler?
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  Yeah, absolutely. Speed is just it's it's kind of
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  hard to explain until you until you go there, right.
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  There's two things that personally, I you know, you
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  think you know, until you, you enter a new a country scale and
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  speed like nothing you've ever seen before.
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  And, and, and, and the speed is driven by understanding what the
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  problem is and stopping, never stopping until you find that
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  solution. And I think that's certainly
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  our, our, our ethos that our ocean payment is we solve
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  problems, we solve them quickly. And I also think the risk
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  appetite companies in, in, in Asia will take more risk from a,
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  from a, a corporate or commercial perspective, less
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  worried about of this fails. But we, we just go again and
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  again. It's that sense of calmness,
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  right? We, we try it.
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  And you know, certainly in the last year, I've seen many
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  merchants, many partners and also as a business try things,
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  they fail, we try again. But ultimately, we still reach
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  that that end goal of that milestone faster than a Western
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  business turning it over, you know?
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  Is there also like an element then with the regulators and how
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  they operate out there? And governments generally have
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  been, and I might be wrong in this one.
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  I'm pretty sure like with Singapore, the government have
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  an investment in Nets and things like that.
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  So the government's more invested in that fintech
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  payments infrastructure. Perhaps, you know, I don't
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  think, I think maybe to a certain extent and you have a,
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  you have a, have a, a, a point with, with, with Singapore.
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  But I think it's less around regulation to, to, to be honest,
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  I think it's, it's more around, I think it's just the culture
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  to, to, to, to be able to move quickly, succeed, not dwell and
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  go again. The, the, you know, one of the
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  things I noticed certainly in, in Asia is you don't dwell on
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  your success and high 5 each other and celebrate you just
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  you, you know, you'll, uh, you'll acknowledge it, you'll
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  celebrate it, but you'll quickly move on to the next.
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  I think that's it. It's it's almost a relentless
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  growth. And that's walking out with a
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  cake after the big deal. Yeah, exactly.
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  I'm waiting for a high 5 and everybody's already moved on,
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  but I think that's one of them. That's the fantastic thing.
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  Like this is the most enjoyable role I've had in my entire
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  career. It's the most busy I've been.
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  I'm flat out, but it's exciting and you move on, right?
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  You just, you, you get something done and it's on to the next.
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  But it's healthy. It you know, it, it's, it's
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  just, it's, it's growth, as I said, at scale and at speed and
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  and it's a phenomenal environment to be in.
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  And it's something that I've, you know, I've just been
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  relishing over the last, over the last.
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  Colleague of mine said and she's based in Singapore.
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  She said to me, sometimes the businesses in in the West, we
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  get in our own way to try and get things done and we don't get
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  out of the way to try and get rid of the bad things.
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  So we you mentioned we dwell on on things that went wrong for so
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  long. And when there's something
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  that's exciting that we may want to build, too many people are
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  involved in it that it, by the time we want to take it to
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  market is already behind where it needs.
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  To be 100%. And so this goes back to what I
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  said about like, you know, you talked at the, at the start
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  about the, the culture is that there, there are too many people
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  involved in, in my experience in, in fintechs in the West,
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  everybody has an opinion. And to a certain extent it's,
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  you know, it's OK to, to, to, you know, socialize ideas, but,
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  but not everybody's opinion is valid.
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  And that's just business, right? Umm, and I think we certainly,
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  what I find pretty, but in the, in the, in the UK fintech
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  spaces, there's a lot of voices. And then what happens is there's
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  a paralysis. So like you say, something
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  doesn't succeed and then it's dissecting, it drains up.
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  Why did that not work? Well, we don't want to take that
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  risk again in Asia, certainly in China didn't work.
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  OK, why didn't it work? Let's try again.
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  Let's go again and go quickly. What?
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  Because actually it's the, it's, it's the fear maybe of failing
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  again. But then you then you're
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  paralyzed and then you know you're not going to succeed.
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  So now you've spent all this time trying something and then
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  you just sit on it for months. And then sometimes you never try
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  it again and then a competitor comes in, tries it learns from
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  maybe from your mistakes or does it he does it a bit quicker.
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  So, so I agree, I think that's that, that's definitely a
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  cultural difference. It probably.
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  Shows that right, when you think about the Apms or LPMS that have
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  been based out in Asia when it comes to WeChat Pay, Alipay, for
• 17:54
  example, I mean, trying to roll out one new payment method in
• 17:58
  the UK and Europe takes year, years and years and years.
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  And because people so scared of of not doing it right.
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  And we've attempted with open banking weirdos coming in now,
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  I'm sure that hopefully we'll be successful in rolling it out.
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  But the role of the Super apps, it needs to be incredible,
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  right? It like it's hard to imagine
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  until you're based out in and really Hong Kong has a Alipay
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  Hong Kong and has a WeChat Hong Kong when you go to mainland
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  China. I remember my, my, my first trip
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  to, to our office in Shenzhen and I got into a taxi and I
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  hadn't even downloaded the, the, the WeChat Hong Kong because it
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  was relatively new, new to Hong Kong.
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  I got in, I took out money, right?
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  And I took out so much money that I still have yen sitting in
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  my wallet. I was like, I don't know how
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  much things are going to be, let me just get a load of cash.
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  Umm, with the taxi driver, just, you know, he took the cash,
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  fine. Umm, But of course they've got
• 19:00
  the barcodes and he's expecting me to scan.
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  And I put my hand and he kind of looks at me and he's like, OK,
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  this guy's a tourist, fine. Everybody's lives are within,
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  particularly if you look at your WeChat and Alipay.
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  And I mean, like you, if you were to take WeChat and Alipay
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  away from somebody in mainland China, it'd be like just taking
• 19:22
  your phone away completely. I mean, everything is there, you
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  know, you've got all these little mini programs, you know,
• 19:28
  taxis travel and get your food ordered.
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  When I travel on the the metro in, in Shenzhen, I use AQR code.
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  So there's one where I can pay for my coffee on Alipay.
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  And then I flicked to another one, which is a transport QR
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  code and I just scan it going in, going out.
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  That's it, you know. It's the dream really, isn't it?
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  It's what we work towards here. We always talk like everything
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  lives within. I mean, ID and everything lives
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  in your phone out there, right? But in terms of like those
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  digital micro journeys of payments, they've been doing it
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  for so long. And I always look at stuff in
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  the UK. Yeah, I lived in a town in in
• 20:04
  Yorkshire called Ilkley. And the council, this is the
• 20:08
  point when you had like Ringo and everything were rife, right?
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  They were well established and the council clearly went for the
• 20:14
  cheap option. And we're like, we're going to
• 20:16
  put brand new, this is something we're going to do once in the
• 20:19
  next 20 years. We're going to put coin first.
• 20:23
  Meters throughout the town and then you know, but late at least
• 20:27
  six months later, someone they, they realized it was awful and
• 20:29
  you'd stickers put all over the side of them because they're
• 20:31
  like, you should have just gone, but you could have done it in a
• 20:33
  much neater way, right? You're not thinking about the
• 20:35
  future. Maybe we've set over and you
• 20:37
  know, this might sound really harsh, but you're thinking about
• 20:40
  the 1% and not the 99% quite often, right?
• 20:43
  And and that's maybe the UK and European markets over thinking
• 20:47
  probably so bad equality and access to to legacy payment
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  methods. I'm not saying you can't use
• 20:54
  those payment methods, but we think they're first sometimes
• 20:57
  rather than where do we need to be going?
• 20:58
  Yeah, you know, I agree, but you know, like you have to look at
• 21:02
  at at Kenya, right, with M Pesa as well, right.
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  It's the the the same, the same thing, right, That the, you
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  know, certain regions in Africa where like the average number of
• 21:11
  mobile phones is between 3:00 and 4:00 per person, right.
• 21:14
  So, so it's, I mean in Kenya, we're way ahead in terms of
• 21:17
  mobile money. So I do, I do certainly think
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  the UK has has a lot of catching up to do.
• 21:22
  But you know, particularly as a, as a card dominated, umm,
• 21:26
  market, you know, umm, when we're referring to, you know,
• 21:30
  Apple Pay and Google Pay as, as, as alternative methods, you
• 21:34
  know, these wallets. I mean, it's just.
• 21:37
  It's just you. Know have been on this show
• 21:39
  since we've been doing it have alluded to the fact that that
• 21:43
  cards days or numbers or numbered or we we should be
• 21:46
  getting rid of physical cards and you've got network tokens
• 21:49
  now, like how much longer are you going to need a physical
• 21:52
  card really is a good question. Yeah.
• 21:54
  And I wondered, I wonder is like the rise of stablecoin also, I'm
• 21:59
  just blockchain in in general going to drive some of that
• 22:03
  change, right? Where where everything is a
• 22:05
  token, right? You mentioned like identity
• 22:08
  payment, like or a single token, just everything.
• 22:11
  Have just rolled out tokenized passports.
• 22:13
  Absolutely. In a digital wallet, right?
• 22:16
  So, so I think, I do think that's the way it's going.
• 22:18
  I think it will definitely take time, but I do think that
• 22:23
  retailers, airlines as well are looking to Asia as a prime
• 22:31
  example of how to create these super apps where ultimately your
• 22:39
  customer, a customer lands in a super app and everything is
• 22:42
  there. Their entire lives sit within an
• 22:44
  app and it's yeah, it's it's completely different.
• 22:47
  Does. It become confusing.
• 22:49
  I know it's different for you probably as a Western going into
• 22:52
  that market, but is there just And George when he was in Japan
• 22:55
  sent us an image of like a noodle shop and it had like 30
• 22:58
  payment methods in the window on this big like sheet sticker.
• 23:01
  It's like what? What do I use?
• 23:03
  Yeah. I, so I, I think we're certainly
• 23:05
  in certainly in China, it'll just, it'll be mostly
• 23:08
  particularly for things like coffee shops or or small
• 23:11
  restaurants and that like that's where really we shop pay is, is,
• 23:15
  is used. It's like almost I think like
• 23:18
  99% coverage and use Alipay as well, don't get me wrong.
• 23:25
  But you never take out your card.
• 23:28
  So when you just scan AQR code, you don't even think.
• 23:32
  You don't have to think. So it's not, it's not really.
• 23:35
  It's not, it's not confusing. I think some of those stickers
• 23:40
  as well are quite outdated, right?
• 23:41
  You'll see them in, you'll see them in taxis.
• 23:43
  But again, you can say the same thing from many e-commerce sites
• 23:48
  that you might know. Yeah, exactly.
• 23:51
  Exactly. So that we we've spoken about
• 23:53
  kind of how business are being run.
• 23:54
  What about when it comes to to selling, I'll say across
• 23:59
  countries, right, and that we all know in payments it's not
• 24:02
  one-size-fits-all at all. Are you having to kind of have a
• 24:06
  different approach the way you try to to win business both
• 24:09
  internally and externally? Yeah.
• 24:11
  So I think O Ocean payment is is unique.
• 24:15
  So we, we, our merchants are the relationships we build with them
• 24:23
  are not just about, we'll process your payments for this
• 24:27
  region. It's about understanding who the
• 24:30
  merchant is. And this is not just for
• 24:32
  enterprise, this is also for, for SMBs understanding what are
• 24:36
  your goals, where are you selling to?
• 24:40
  And for Chinese merchants, it's where are we not selling to,
• 24:43
  right. Everywhere where their, where
• 24:45
  their customers are willing to buy our products, we'll sell,
• 24:47
  we'll ship. We've got the logistics, we've
• 24:49
  got the infrastructure set up. And so for us, it's about
• 24:53
  understanding the business. It's very much a relationship
• 24:56
  base. It's built on, on, on trust.
• 25:01
  And you know, when I, when I moved to Ocean Payments, our,
• 25:04
  our CEO Lanny said to me, you know, this is going to be a,
• 25:08
  it's going to be a challenge for you because it's a new culture.
• 25:11
  And I was like ready to take it on.
• 25:14
  And she said, you know, in China, trust is built on
• 25:20
  delivering results, doing what you say you're going to do,
• 25:23
  right. And again, in the West, you can,
• 25:27
  you can talk about building trust, but it's once you show
• 25:31
  that you can be trusted and you can deliver what you say you're
• 25:34
  going to deliver, then you've got a solid, solid relationship.
• 25:39
  How, how we work with our merchants is we build that
• 25:42
  trust, right? If we say we're going to do
• 25:43
  something, we do it, We do it at speed, we do it at scale, then
• 25:47
  they entrust us. Then we, we, we advise them, you
• 25:51
  know, what markets are you going into?
• 25:53
  Are you thinking of opening a European entity, AUS entity and
• 25:59
  a Middle Eastern entity? OK, how can we support you?
• 26:02
  Here's what we know. Here's how what we've done for
• 26:04
  other merchants and that, that, that type of sale, we've talked,
• 26:08
  you'll hear it consultative sale, right?
• 26:10
  But in payments that, that approach is often saved for your
• 26:15
  large, large enterprises, right? Nobody wants, nobody wants to
• 26:19
  put that effort in. But I think it's, it's very
• 26:21
  different from an ocean payment perspective.
• 26:22
  We treat all of our merchants regardless of size with that
• 26:26
  same consultative approach because we know the sheer scale,
• 26:32
  the potential for every single merchant we were to work with to
• 26:35
  scale globally. And even the SMBs will be
• 26:38
  selling in 200 countries, right? In the UK, if you've got an SMB
• 26:42
  that they're typically they'll sell maybe domestically, maybe
• 26:44
  to a couple of European countries.
• 26:47
  In China, you could have an SMB that says I'm doing maybe like
• 26:52
  a, you know, half a million U.S. dollars a month.
• 26:55
  You're AUS, an SMB, but there's 200 countries.
• 26:59
  So the approach has to be the same.
• 27:01
  It's you still have to give them that same care, wrap your arms
• 27:04
  around them. So I think that's probably one
• 27:06
  of the main differences on the approach to kind of the more the
• 27:11
  difference of of a approach to to Western merchants.
• 27:15
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• 27:57
  I think the sales strategy is a bit cleaner than when you talk
• 28:00
  about like that decision maker autonomy that exists, right?
• 28:03
  So you know, here there's always a, you know, just commercial
• 28:06
  leaders, we're going, well, who is the decision maker in this
• 28:08
  particular business type organization?
• 28:10
  And it could be the CEO here, it could be the CTO, it can be the
• 28:14
  finance direct, whatever it might be, you almost need to
• 28:17
  just get that one person that you know is going to be the
• 28:19
  decision maker in your world, right?
• 28:21
  Yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes there will be
• 28:23
  one or two, but you're right, there's there's, there's less
• 28:28
  gatekeepers, put it that way, right.
• 28:30
  So, you know, you kind of have, you know, Joan in finance who's
• 28:33
  been working there for 20 years and maybe has no real
• 28:37
  understanding of payments or can't, no matter how many times
• 28:40
  you do a demo or explain to her, she has no idea.
• 28:43
  And then it's lost in translation.
• 28:45
  And then it goes back up to the CFO and he thinks, no, no, just
• 28:49
  we don't have time for this or it's not, it's not much of A
• 28:51
  cost saving or it goes to the CTO and he thinks has too much
• 28:55
  hassle. That's 500 days of dev work
• 28:58
  because Jonas explained that we're going to have to RIP out
• 29:00
  the entire system when actually it's like a woo commerce plug
• 29:03
  in, right. So, so absolutely, I think yeah,
• 29:06
  for Jon. And if your name is Joan and
• 29:08
  you're watching. But yeah, so, so I do, I do
• 29:12
  think that it's a little bit more simplistic.
• 29:14
  However, you know, merchants in, in, in China are, are demanding
• 29:18
  and they're very much price driven as well.
• 29:19
  So there's probably a balance of so there's there's a balance.
• 29:26
  But I think, yeah, beer is probably correct that that, that
• 29:29
  decision making process and that hierarchy is probably beneficial
• 29:34
  to doing business. Yeah.
• 29:36
  You mentioned that kind of showing capability then that
• 29:40
  that kind of earned you the the the respect and the reliability
• 29:43
  moving forward. What happens when that when that
• 29:46
  doesn't go the way you want it to go if it's happened so far?
• 29:50
  Yeah. Well, luckily it hasn't
• 29:51
  happened, which is which, which is probably down again to how
• 29:56
  we, how we operate as a business, right, Because you
• 29:58
  keep going until you until you reach that success and you do it
• 30:01
  quickly. But I suppose there's, there's
• 30:04
  always a risk when when dealing with merchants that you'll,
• 30:08
  you'll lose some trust and it's a competitive market, right.
• 30:11
  So what we're we're also seeing is, you know, one of the threats
• 30:16
  to any Asian based PSP is Western acquirers coming in,
• 30:22
  obtaining licenses in Hong Kong and Singapore, putting a couple
• 30:25
  of people maybe on the ground. But of course they have the
• 30:28
  name, they have the brand, they have the acquiring licenses
• 30:32
  throughout the West. And sometimes there's a
• 30:36
  challenge of those acquirers or PSPS pulling some business away.
• 30:43
  What we often see is merchants come back because the difference
• 30:48
  of, of what they don't know how to, they don't know how to serve
• 30:51
  us. It's it, they haven't met our
• 30:54
  expectations. Yeah, they were able to like
• 30:55
  drive a price down and we're able to get local acquiring
• 30:58
  rails in the UK and Europe. But actually they don't
• 31:02
  understand us. They don't understand us as a
• 31:04
  business. They don't understand how we
• 31:07
  work, how we communicate, etcetera.
• 31:10
  So I think it's, I think it's, it's, it's incumbent on any
• 31:16
  payment provider to not let your standards drop.
• 31:19
  No matter how well you're doing, how successful you are, how you
• 31:23
  know what your margins are like, you've always got to have in the
• 31:27
  back of your mind that at any moment somebody could swoop in
• 31:30
  and take all of your merchants away, right?
• 31:33
  So I think that's that's how we operate at Ocean Payment that we
• 31:36
  don't let our standards drop. And you we talk about, you know,
• 31:41
  fintechs and payment companies here, obviously look, a lot of
• 31:43
  them are looking at APAC, you know, India's getting a lot of
• 31:46
  chat, right, Obviously because the volumes are so significant
• 31:49
  in some of these these markets, right?
• 31:51
  Is there any advice that you would give to those brands, I
• 31:54
  guess coming to these, these markets?
• 31:55
  But also you on the flip side, you know, I don't know what the
• 31:59
  strategy is. I'm sure you do a true strategy
• 32:00
  after the ocean payment, you know, are you looking the other
• 32:04
  way as well and thinking, you know, you don't need to just
• 32:06
  have the success in one 2-3 regions like this is a product
• 32:10
  that we can take global or certainly into more markets.
• 32:13
  Yep, yes, So, umm, on the on the first question advice I would
• 32:18
  give is understand the market you're entering, right.
• 32:21
  Asia is a huge, huge market and each country has their own ways
• 32:26
  of working different cultures, different expectations.
• 32:30
  I think you're up to a certain extent has a little bit of that,
• 32:34
  but there's you could probably cover a good handful of European
• 32:40
  countries with a similar strategy.
• 32:42
  Let's let's put it that way. I think within Asia, the the
• 32:46
  there there are far more nuances.
• 32:49
  What I would say to any PSP or require a looking to, to, to
• 32:54
  come into to Asia and, and, you know, not just to come in and,
• 33:00
  and, and obtain some of the volume from Chinese customers,
• 33:04
  which everybody's been trying to do for years.
• 33:07
  Make sure you understand the market and who the, the, the,
• 33:10
  the, the players are within, within the, the fintech
• 33:13
  ecosystem. Come and speak to companies like
• 33:16
  Ocean payment, you know, pick up the phone drop message to me,
• 33:19
  ask, you know, here's what we're trying to achieve.
• 33:21
  I think, I think sometimes within the payments world, it's
• 33:26
  a competitive landscape, right. But actually the most success if
• 33:30
  you look at in the last 10 or 15 years, the success comes from
• 33:35
  collaboration. Absolutely.
• 33:37
  And I think we shouldn't be fearful of saying we don't
• 33:41
  really know exactly. We know what we want to do.
• 33:43
  But there's a few areas we need help with because there's money
• 33:47
  to be made for all fintechs in different, different areas.
• 33:52
  Sometimes there's crossover, sometimes there's conflict of
• 33:54
  interest. But that's, you know, that's the
• 33:57
  payments world, right? It's incestuous.
• 33:58
  It's so I would say understand the market and understand who
• 34:02
  can help you. There's been a bit of a scramble
• 34:04
  in Japan recently, obviously with them, you know, dishing out
• 34:07
  some new acquiring licenses, right, new entrants into the
• 34:09
  market. And I think they've all gone a
• 34:10
  little bit going home into Japan, right?
• 34:13
  We'll probably again not understanding some of those.
• 34:16
  A little bit nervous right now, right?
• 34:18
  Correct. And I think that's, I think
• 34:20
  that's, that's the worst thing you can do is just to jump into
• 34:23
  a market, right? Because sometimes you don't get
• 34:26
  really a second chance. First impressions are, are, are
• 34:28
  important, umm, in terms of our own strategy.
• 34:31
  And, and the other way we, I mean, for the last, you know, 10
• 34:37
  plus years, we have been accessing local rails on behalf
• 34:43
  of our merchants, partnering with acquirers and other PSPS
• 34:50
  right throughout the UK, Europe, Middle East, US, LATAM.
• 34:56
  And we will continue to do that. You know, as I said, we're
• 35:00
  working on our own license in, in, in, in Luxembourg, which
• 35:04
  will we've got an office already that we're, we're about to
• 35:07
  launch in the next couple of months.
• 35:08
  So that will mean that we can kind of lay some roots there.
• 35:12
  But our strategy I think will always align with our USP, which
• 35:16
  is working with merchants that come from a Chinese background
• 35:21
  and helping them operate globally, right, Rather than,
• 35:25
  you know, we, we kind of course have the ability to, to work
• 35:28
  with kind of merchants within a domestic market would in Europe.
• 35:32
  But you know, it's quite a saturated market.
• 35:34
  As you know, our USP is the language capability, the fact
• 35:38
  that we're based in China, the fact that we're deeply rooted
• 35:41
  in, in China. And of course, it's a massive
• 35:44
  market and we're seeing more and more Chinese merchant now scale
• 35:48
  to A to, to a stage where they will open local businesses.
• 35:52
  Play because you've built that reliability and that trust.
• 35:54
  So you you know, you should you put that you solution or license
• 36:00
  on the ground in the European markets.
• 36:02
  But what you're saying is, I presume obviously your biggest
• 36:04
  customers are the ones that that you'll you'll have moving into
• 36:07
  European markets primarily, but you're allowing them to grow and
• 36:11
  scale with you with their trusted payment, correct?
• 36:13
  Correct, Yeah, yeah. And that and that is our, that
• 36:16
  is our USP. We are, we are supporting, we
• 36:19
  are bridging the gap between China and the rest of the world.
• 36:23
  And how then would Ocean Payment navigate CON the regulators in
• 36:29
  these countries, right, Because you mentioned you guys are doing
• 36:31
  all the hard work on behalf of your merchants, how you don't
• 36:34
  have any relationships with all these different other providers
• 36:37
  globally? Yeah.
• 36:38
  So, so for us, you know, there's two elements to this.
• 36:44
  One is perception, right? I spoke to somebody last month,
• 36:49
  actually had an event and a comment was made around
• 36:56
  particular models we were discussing just general
• 36:58
  discussions around various different models and different
• 37:00
  models that were being were being operated in Asia.
• 37:03
  And so it was a chief risk officer of and have a European
• 37:07
  acquirer and he said, yeah, you know, it's always still that
• 37:09
  kind of view of China. And I said, would you remember
• 37:13
  this was the exact same view that Western acquirers had of
• 37:18
  Eastern Europe to remember those days.
• 37:21
  Now look at where all the acquiring licenses are Eastern.
• 37:25
  Europe, all the crypto platforms are being built out.
• 37:27
  But that's. A bit of friction, right?
• 37:28
  You talked about the friction points and us tripping ourselves
• 37:31
  up with regulation and worrying too much in Eastern Europe.
• 37:35
  They did. They did that like, you know,
• 37:36
  OK, some of it was a little bit gone Lithuania or what have you,
• 37:39
  but they've scaled that back now.
• 37:41
  But it allowed them to create a whole new market.
• 37:43
  And now, you know, they've increased the scrutiny and that,
• 37:46
  you know, what it takes to get a Lithuanian license.
• 37:48
  But that is now an established. Absolutely.
• 37:51
  And so you know, we, we work very closely with the
• 37:55
  regulators. We've worked so hard over the
• 37:58
  last 10-11 years to, to, to build a reputation as actually
• 38:01
  one of the only PS PS that don't touch any high risk.
• 38:04
  MCC's airlines from a credit risk perspective is the highest
• 38:08
  that we, we would touch. We don't do any adults, we don't
• 38:11
  do any gambling, we don't do any forex, we don't do any crypto,
• 38:14
  we don't touch pharmaceuticals. So that which is quite rare,
• 38:18
  right for, for, for Asian based PSPS, right, there's higher
• 38:22
  margins, but we are, we are squeaky clean from a, from an
• 38:26
  MCC perspective. And that, that has been hard
• 38:32
  fought, right to, to, to build a reputation against certain
• 38:35
  perception, right. So when we go and we, we support
• 38:40
  our merchants in, you know, Western markets, we speak with
• 38:45
  acquirers and we partner with the right acquirers who actually
• 38:48
  understand us as a business, how we manage risk.
• 38:51
  Well, how, what our, our, our fraud tools are.
• 38:55
  And we've built a lot of our in house fraud tools, you know,
• 39:00
  real time transaction monitoring, post transaction
• 39:02
  monitoring. One of the things we've built
• 39:04
  that I'd love to take to market is actually a, a connection into
• 39:07
  all of the global logistics software.
• 39:10
  So, you know, we operate as a pay FAC in, in Hong Kong.
• 39:13
  So you can imagine Chinese merchants selling cross-border.
• 39:17
  Of course, fulfillment times sometimes can be impacted by
• 39:20
  extreme weather, right, Hong Kong, China, lots of typhoons
• 39:27
  and that could add 345 days right to a delivery time.
• 39:31
  We're plugged into logistics software.
• 39:33
  So we say to our merchants, OK, well, you know, we, we know what
• 39:36
  your fulfillment times are. We may have a re rolling reserve
• 39:40
  in in place, but we know based on the data they have to upload
• 39:45
  their logistics data. We've got a plug in.
• 39:49
  We can do a look up to say, yes, you have delivered these hundred
• 39:52
  packages to these 100 customers or in fact you've only delivered
• 39:55
  50 of them. We can then release funds for
• 39:58
  the ones that are delivered so that all that data then gives us
• 40:02
  a, a better picture of peaks and troughs in terms of like where
• 40:04
  the chargeback risks are, the ratios.
• 40:07
  We can then go to acquirers with that data and they understand,
• 40:10
  OK, well, ocean payment are really on top of this.
• 40:14
  And and it's, it's about building again, building that
• 40:16
  trust. So I think the challenges we
• 40:19
  have with global regulators same as.
• 40:22
  Any, any PSP, you know, regardless of where you're
• 40:26
  based, you're going to deal with international regulators
• 40:30
  entering new markets. So we, we communicate.
• 40:33
  I think that's the the best way We've we, we, we communicate, we
• 40:36
  keep our ear to the ground. We speak to regulators, we work
• 40:39
  with the right acquirers as well.
• 40:42
  And because it's important for us that, that we not only that
• 40:46
  we maintain and retain our image as a, a APSP that does the right
• 40:54
  things, but that you also work with the right partners, right?
• 40:57
  Because it only takes one partner that maybe doesn't do
• 40:59
  the right things that, that, that can damage reputation.
• 41:02
  So we've got a fairly stringent onboarding process and and an
• 41:07
  evaluation criteria as well for for ecosystem partners.
• 41:10
  Is it challenging maintaining multiple pay FAC acquiring
• 41:15
  relationships as a business? Is it challenging?
• 41:22
  Sometimes, but I think. Share of wallet and different
• 41:25
  risk requirements. And needs from you as opposed to
• 41:27
  your needs from them. Well, I mean, I think that with
• 41:31
  any partnership, right, there's a bit of give and take.
• 41:34
  I think for us, we're, we're, we're growing all the time.
• 41:37
  We've got good significant volumes that all of our partners
• 41:42
  are pretty happy with what they're getting.
• 41:44
  I think that's, that's a, a benefit.
• 41:47
  And then if you look at our growth trajectory for this year,
• 41:51
  again, there's a significant growth right across all
• 41:54
  acquirers. So everybody's getting their,
• 41:56
  their fair wallet share. So I think it's again, we're
• 41:59
  quite selective. So it's when we choose a
• 42:01
  partner, it's about is this long term and if it is long term,
• 42:05
  they understand what we're doing as a business and, and, and we
• 42:10
  are aligned in terms of, of, of our, our kind of growth plans
• 42:13
  and trajectory. Do you see the same sort of
• 42:15
  things we've seen you know America and Europe in terms of
• 42:19
  like and are you doing this yourselves and Tony as well, but
• 42:22
  getting better authorization rates from different underlying
• 42:25
  acquirers and how you dynamically rooting that
• 42:26
  traffic? Have you built out those flows
• 42:28
  and data sets to? Yeah, yeah.
• 42:30
  So we've been dynamically rooting for for years.
• 42:32
  Actually, it was one of the first things I asked when I came
• 42:34
  in. Yeah.
• 42:35
  You know, do we have the ability?
• 42:38
  Yes, we have the ability. Are we doing it?
• 42:40
  Yes, it's tried and tested. We're doing it.
• 42:43
  We have been doing it. It's so important, particularly
• 42:45
  for our merchants, price sensitive and they want to
• 42:50
  maximize both rates, right. So, yeah, it's something that's
• 42:55
  working well for us. We don't call ourselves like an
• 42:57
  orchestration layer, right? Because from our from, you know,
• 43:00
  you probably need to plug into other PSPS to be an
• 43:03
  orchestration there. But we're orchestrating those
• 43:06
  flows to the right acquirers. That's a really good way of
• 43:09
  putting it as well because you do see a lot of gateways that
• 43:11
  were a gateway inside the parents orchestration.
• 43:13
  Yeah, and they're not. They're a gateway that's going
• 43:15
  into 15 acquirers and maybe the optimizing their acquirers, but
• 43:19
  you also have to optimize your payment gateway just as much as
• 43:21
  you do you acquire as well. Absolutely, absolutely right.
• 43:24
  And that's the that's the reason why you have, you know, multiple
• 43:28
  acquirers plugged in. You know, I've worked for
• 43:30
  companies in in the past that were as acquirers and then
• 43:33
  operated their own gateway, but they had no other acquirers
• 43:36
  plugged in. And that was a difficult sell to
• 43:38
  go to a merchant to say we want to take your volumes.
• 43:40
  And they'd say, well, I'm plugged into, you know, a Payoh
• 43:44
  or I'm plugged into, you know, whoever.
• 43:46
  And I've got like a choice of 7 acquirers and you try to win
• 43:51
  that business. Same.
• 43:52
  Yeah. But we own our full stack and I
• 43:53
  think it all happens. If something goes wrong with
• 43:55
  you, who do I go to? I'll be more concerned about
• 43:57
  your gateway being the payer than the seven acquirers on the
• 43:59
  other side. That's true.
• 44:00
  That's true. And.
• 44:04
  OK. So when we're looking then I
• 44:07
  guess as well at some of the lessons that merchants can take
• 44:13
  from, we've talked a lot about the acquirers across these
• 44:15
  different regions. You're obviously now moving into
• 44:18
  new markets with with merchants. What do the merchants need to be
• 44:21
  thinking about? What lessons are you giving the
• 44:22
  quote? You're obviously very active.
• 44:24
  You're flying around the world. We keep bumping to you in
• 44:26
  different continents. And so see getting these
• 44:28
  learnings from all these markets as your merchants start to move
• 44:31
  into them, how are you educating and working with those merchants
• 44:34
  around? OK, you guys know the AIPAC LPM,
• 44:38
  you know market very well. This is what you need to be
• 44:40
  thinking about here. These are how you're going to
• 44:42
  get the best of acceptance rates in this market.
• 44:44
  Yeah, I think, I think for for our merchants, it's about
• 44:48
  understanding the end consumer because they're in so many
• 44:52
  markets, it's very difficult for a merchant to understand 200
• 44:57
  different consumer profiles, you know, in 200 different
• 45:01
  countries. So I think for for us as a as a,
• 45:03
  as a PSP, our job is 1. Yes, it's very easy to advise.
• 45:07
  Here's that. Here's the methods that you
• 45:09
  should be offering at checkout. It's basic.
• 45:12
  It's payments one O 1 when you should be offering them, but
• 45:16
  also what is the flow like? What does your website look
• 45:19
  like? So it's goes beyond payments.
• 45:21
  What you know, I talked earlier about like the types of websites
• 45:26
  that you see. One of the biggest websites in
• 45:29
  Hong Kong is something called HKTV Mall and you log on to this
• 45:33
  thing. It's hard to navigate.
• 45:36
  There are multiple pop ups, multiple drop downs, lots of
• 45:41
  pictures, lots of sounds and weird and wonderful things
• 45:45
  popping out, but it's a hugely successful e-commerce
• 45:49
  marketplace that just simply doesn't work in the West, right
• 45:53
  in the UK. Somebody's reaction to that will
• 45:56
  be this is I don't think I think this is a dodgy website or I
• 46:00
  don't I'm not sure about this, this.
• 46:02
  I don't recognize anything about this.
• 46:05
  Just feeling right. And, and again, that's, it's
• 46:07
  exactly so you, so you have to appeal, not just you can stick
• 46:12
  on, you know, all the payment methods you like, but if they
• 46:16
  can't find them or they, they, they abandoned the website, let
• 46:20
  alone abandoning the cart. So it's, it's information like
• 46:23
  that, it's advice like that that goes beyond purely just
• 46:27
  payments. I think is, is one of the unique
• 46:31
  things about ocean payment, right?
• 46:32
  We, we care for our merchants and of course that, you know,
• 46:36
  they're in it, they've got an advantage right there.
• 46:38
  They've got a low cost base in terms of manufacturing.
• 46:41
  They, you know, the logistics are there, they can ship
• 46:46
  quickly, efficiently, but they need to present themselves in a
• 46:50
  right way. And I think that's where we can
• 46:52
  help them. And sometimes that might mean
• 46:56
  that they need to come off their own platforms that they've built
• 46:59
  for the Asian market and plug in perhaps to a marketplace or to
• 47:03
  another ecommerce platform or enter another ecosystem.
• 47:07
  And if we have those integrations, of course, we can
• 47:09
  say here's what we would recommend, here's what the UX is
• 47:12
  and we're already plugged in. So we'll help you with that do.
• 47:14
  You have quite a big account management team then.
• 47:16
  Is that a big part of the business?
• 47:18
  Yeah. So, so we, you know, every
• 47:21
  account management team should be a sales team, right?
• 47:23
  That's what I always say, like sales people in disguise right
• 47:26
  now drop there. Yeah, So absolutely we do.
• 47:31
  Retention is key and it's a very, very competitive market as
• 47:34
  I mentioned earlier. So retention is really, really
• 47:36
  important for us. We do.
• 47:39
  We've got, we've got two account management functions.
• 47:41
  One is managing our existing partnerships and the other is in
• 47:44
  managing our existing merchants. And then there's an overarching
• 47:48
  operations team as well that see all of that data across both
• 47:53
  teams. So it's important that we, you
• 47:57
  know, you spend all of the the the time and effort winning
• 48:00
  merchants, winning partners. It's difficult, but it's
• 48:04
  actually probably the easier part because you ain't got to
• 48:07
  manage those merchants and those partners.
• 48:09
  Probably 43456, hopefully many more years, but I think.
• 48:14
  It's the partner ecosystem in that part of the world because
• 48:16
  obviously it's prevalent in the in the UK particularly now that
• 48:19
  partnership go to market. Yeah.
• 48:22
  So it depends on industry, as I mentioned, airline industry, all
• 48:25
  of the air APAC airlines have just built their own systems,
• 48:28
  right? Yeah, e-commerce platforms are
• 48:32
  definitely eh, utilized. Umm, Shopify is large.
• 48:38
  You see Wix used quite a bit. You still got your Magentos and
• 48:42
  umm, so, so they're there, they're present, but not as much
• 48:47
  as the West. There's not, which is actually
• 48:49
  beneficial right from APSP perspective, right?
• 48:51
  One, you're not giving away revenue, eh?
• 48:54
  And two, umm, you know, you can go and directly integrate with
• 48:59
  merchants websites, but there's the balance of again, it comes
• 49:03
  back to having a strategy for the domestic market and that's
• 49:08
  where we come in and help them with that global strategy.
• 49:11
  And then maybe, maybe 2-2 different strategies.
• 49:15
  Chinese merchants will often run multiple URLs, Sometimes it's a
• 49:19
  group and it's across multiple MCC's.
• 49:21
  So again, different approaches for different markets.
• 49:23
  Is there an ISO market to a degree out there as well or not?
• 49:26
  There is, there is, there is an ISO market, but but we often get
• 49:32
  approached by acquirers that they, you know, do we want to
• 49:38
  enter into a, an ISO relationship.
• 49:41
  For us, it's about kind of owning the flows, owning the
• 49:44
  merchant 100% Umm, So we have a couple of of models, but it's
• 49:50
  not our preferred model. Umm, but it's it's, it's, it's
• 49:56
  there. It's absolutely there, but not
• 49:58
  as big as the West. Amazing than I was going to the
• 50:02
  final part of the show today. We ask our guests to come on and
• 50:06
  and give us a nominate their ick what they want to banish forever
• 50:11
  to bring to the shuffle. Shame.
• 50:13
  What would be yours? So I mentioned it earlier and I
• 50:16
  said it would come back to us the term Apms, an alternative
• 50:19
  payment method. So we talked about WeChat and
• 50:23
  Alipay. It's not alternative, it's
• 50:26
  ubiquitous. Umm again, Kenya M pesa.
• 50:31
  So we need to think park that. Let's call it a local payment
• 50:36
  method or even better, let's call it what it is.
• 50:38
  It's a wallet or you know, I think that the term alternative
• 50:44
  it's pretty offensive to somebody who's got got got a
• 50:47
  WeChat got Alipay. It might be alternative to also
• 50:52
  sit in the industry, particularly who have worked in
• 50:54
  card dominated markets. But I think we can unhappy if we
• 50:59
  go with local payment method. But alternative Fiat needs to be
• 51:03
  APM API be. Guilty of that a few years ago.
• 51:07
  You said I do hear you say LPM now you make a conscious effort
• 51:10
  always don't forget. Yeah, I think it's it's really
• 51:13
  valid. And I think you can even look at
• 51:15
  European markets, right, where like Germany is a great example
• 51:19
  where cards was was never king in that country, right.
• 51:21
  So his his card's the APM. I know, yeah.
• 51:24
  Ideal as an APM. I deal with the the the LPM,
• 51:28
  right? Yeah.
• 51:29
  That's a great one. You don't need to convince me on
• 51:31
  that. You can go onto the top website
• 51:33
  of the top 10 acquirers and they'll all say cards plus X
• 51:36
  amount of APM when it shouldn't be that and all the RFPs will
• 51:39
  say we process ABC LPMS. It shouldn't be that is sorry.
• 51:44
  APM should be the LPMS. I do agree.
• 51:46
  I agree that is on the shelf. Get it on the shelf.
• 51:49
  Good work. Thanks so much for coming in
• 51:52
  today. Where can I guess find you?
• 51:55
  You can find me on LinkedIn. Don Owens, please feel free to
• 51:58
  reach out. If you're entering China, you're
• 52:00
  entering APAC, come and talk to us.
• 52:03
  If you're an acquirer, you're APSP, you're within the fintech
• 52:07
  ecosystem, come and speak to us. I'll probably be at every single
• 52:12
  event between now and this time next year, so you will hopefully
• 52:16
  see me there as well. Just to I do Yeah, my.
• 52:19
  Office got more air miles if anyone we know it's true.
• 52:23
  Nice. Thank you so much, Dan.
• 52:24
  Thanks so much for your time guys.
• 52:25
  Cheers.