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Uncovering Resilience and Forgiveness in the Workplace · Business Roundtable

0:00
Hey, everybody, so glad to have you here again on the Business Roundtable
0:05
podcast. We have returning guests Bill Hatch and Charlie Chen with us. My
0:11
name is David Carr Stewart, your business where my passion is really bringing teams
0:17
together, business owners, individuals, leaders to accomplish great things together. Charlie,
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do a brief introduction before we get started tonight. Yeah. Absolutely.
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My name is Charlie Chen. The cybersecurity specialists of our group here, and
0:33
it's almost like the detective Charlie Chan, but off by one letter. And
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basically we deliver a peace of mind all the same time doing it with the
0:43
world class client experience that you can expect from a Ritz Carlton or a Disney,
0:49
and that we could stop putting up with rude it people. We're glad
0:55
to have you back. Charlie and Bill, you're gonna we'll let you do
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an introduction real brief briefly here, but you're going to be leading us tonight
1:00
in our conversation, so the first time for everything. My name is Bill
1:07
Hatch. I am a leadership guide and podcaster under the under the banner of
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Bald Spots Productions, and I'm working on a series of leadership books that is
1:21
based on eight actionable behaviors, one of which we'll be speaking about tonight,
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well, kind of, two of which, but one of which it's It's
1:27
tied together. It's all tied together. Oh, Bill, can I start
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a uh a podcast named Spiky Hair Productions to compete with you? Sure you
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can compete? Actually, the bald the bald in in bald spots, actually
1:45
stands for something. It's an acronym. I see, gotcha. I can't
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remember what the D stands for the B a L stands for Bill and Leah
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and my my dearest of dear friends, Leah Corlew came up with the name
1:59
and the acronym, and I can't remember what the stand what the D stands
2:04
for? And she passed away, so I can't ask her anymore. Yeah.
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So, so now I'm stuck with this acronym and I don't know what
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it stands for. I'm gonna have to just read through the D section of
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the nitionary it occurs to me which word it is, all right, So
2:21
we'll have it be destiny for now. How's that? Yeah? Okay,
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there we go. That sounds good. I like destiny you've got a nice
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I'm glad. I'm glad Bill to have you back. Charlie, we missed
2:36
you last week. Bill and I had a great conversation and you missed it.
2:40
You guys can always go back on YouTube or follow any one of your
2:45
podcast platforms, which is always great. We appreciate the reviews and the feedback
2:49
to so thanks for all of your guys to support comments encourages us to continue
2:54
coming on and again I'll put an invit out there if you are listening,
2:59
rest with you, reach out to Bill, Charlie or myself as we talk
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about these things. Please leave your comments too. We really do read them
3:06
and go back and review them and appreciate you guys sharing your thoughts. So,
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Bill, I'm really excited about your topic tonight, which you shared with
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us earlier before we got on tonight. But I'll let you introduce it.
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I want to steal your thunder, so please go ahead and lead us into
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the conversation tonight. Well, I wrote a little script and everything. I'm
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really prepared. Yes, you got to outline and everything. It's great.
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I know, I know, surprise surprise. My instructors from school would be
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shocked, but anyway. In today's fast paced and often high stakes business environment,
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navigating challenges, recovering from setbacks, and maintaining positive relationships are more critical
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than ever. Today, we'll dive into the oft overlook but inexorably tied together
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virtues of forgiveness and resilience, which not just personal qualities but pivotal business strategies.
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Forgiveness and business isn't just about letting go of grudges. It's about creating
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a workplace culture that values understanding and second chances, leading to an enhanced teamwork
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and decreased workplace stress. On the other hand, resilience empowers businesses to face
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failures and unforeseen challenges head on, emerging more robust and adeptible than ever.
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Let's explore and find out how embracing these principles can lead to greater success,
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healthier work environments, and more robust and sustainable business growth. Join us,
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will you, as we bring the real stories from having walked the path of
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adversity and come out ahead by integrating forgiveness and resilience into our core business practices.
4:44
That sounds great, Bill, It sounds like a book. I know
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I've actually been working on some school stuff and my brain is fried. Oh
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boy, Well, we appreciate you pouring from your book, take what you've
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been working on, and we're excited when that finally comes out. Uh.
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And and helping us in this this area of forgiveness and really resilience. I
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don't think those are words give comes to the mind in business sometimes absolutely necessary,
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it really isn't. You know, so many, so many business places
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just I don't know if you can say intentionally or unintentionally, but seem to
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encourage toxic environments, especially when when you're talking about sales environments. I have
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a background in automotive and insurance sales, and believe me, you don't want
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to do either of those. But yeah, forgiveness, yeah pretty much.
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Yeah, but but with more swearing. Uh. But but yeah, it's
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it's crazy. Forgiveness isn't even a word that comes into uh, into the
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vocabulary and in some of those environments. And uh, and let alone if
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you if you try to tie it with resilience, you looked at like a
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crazy person, But but it really is, It really is tied together because
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it creates forgiveness creates an environment that makes resilience easier. M and uh and
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we all want the adaptability and uh and cooperation and collaboration that that these kinds
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of environments come with. But you know, it's uh yeah, it's just
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one of those things that's too often overlooked. And so yeah, it's definitely
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going to be part of the book. Uh, part of the book.
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And uh so you get a little, a little preview. Yeah, well
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we like mind of Bill, but well I love to dig into this idea
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of forgiveness because again it's Bill my experience. It's not something that although I
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I I personally about the empowerment. I know we're gonna dig into us a
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little bit, but it's just again not really something you think about sometimes.
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And I would can you lead us, Bill baby? What what would be
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your Yeah, because I think it's a board. What's what would be your
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definition of forgiveness? What is that for you? Forgiveness is at its heart
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being free, freeing yourself from from the grudges of the past. You know,
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I had on my own podcast, uh this uh oh, tonight's pot
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the one that's going to be posted up tonight. In fact, we get
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into a conversation, We'll get into a conversation on forgiveness and and how it
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has nothing to do with the person being forgiven. And that's where people often
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get stuck on it, you know, they they think, oh, I
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despise this person and with a with a hot hatred and and all that kind
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of stuff, when really forgiveness has nothing to do with the other person.
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The other person's probably already moved on with it. And just like you wouldn't
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pay this person to live in your house, you shouldn't be giving them all
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this real estate in your mind. You know, this person you don't like,
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who wronged you in some way now occupies some of the most valuable real
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estate you can ever own in your in your mind. And you know,
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if you want to be free of that, you have to learn to forgive.
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And really what that means is is pushing that all aside, getting rid
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of it, letting it go, you know, forgetting you know the old
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saying forgive and forget and uh. While we should always learn the lessons of
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being wronged so that we don't get wronged again, we should kind of leave
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the U, leave those those feelings, that that that that hot heat aside
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and uh and just set it down. Yeah, well, I think that's
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what I really appreciate you sharing that perspective, because I hear people say they
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don't deserve my forgiveness. Why should I forgive that person? Right, That's
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what I hear, Like, I'm holding I want to hold something back and
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I don't want to I don't want them to have that. I don't They
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don't, like I said, deserve it. So what I heard you say,
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Bill, is to clarify, is that essentially, you're you're caging yourself.
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You're holding yourself back by doing that, right, You're you're giving yourself
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an excuse to h to be unproductive. Really in some ways, you know,
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some of the some of the worst stuff you can do to yourself,
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you know, chronic stress, ulcers and and uh and migraines and and all
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of that kind of stuff. Hm, you know just uh yeah, just
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the terrible things that we got to avoid in life. Right, So,
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getting getting free, it's it's getting that off of yourself. Oh, it's
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so you're not you're not experienced that ongoing pain. It's almost like whatever they
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did to you, you're you're actually continuing that. They're already gone, They've
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moved on, they're probably not even thinking about you anymore, Right, yeah,
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and you're you're that person who that person who cuts you off in traffic
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doesn't even know you exist, and yet here you are. They're a burden
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on your mind. Right Oh yeah, yeah, so I could see the
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power. I mean, so this idea of you're getting at in the power
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forgiveness is getting out of that because if that, if you're holding onto all
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that, how could you even collaborate or work when then we're talking about in
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the business world, we're working with people. If you're having all these things
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put on you, it's like you're you're, you're, you're putting more and
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more distance in space between those people that you get to. You have the
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opportunity to work with an impact, right yeah, yeah, whether it's the
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person you're you're you're not forgiving or not. Because just having that there is
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going to reduce your productivity. It's uh, it's going to depower you.
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It's uh, you know, it's just it's gonna keep you from growing and
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even from being creative, from coming up with new solutions to to problems because
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you're just so occupied by by this by this thing that's that's stuck in your
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in your crop. Mm hmm. Yeah, Charlie what I'm curious, Charlie,
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you're you're shaking your head, but what what's your h what is what
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is your experience? I love Bill's explanation. What's your experience with this forgiveness
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being forgiven, not for holding back forgiveness? You know, where have you,
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you know, seeing this show up in your life? Yeah? Absolutely,
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I'm thinking of it from a different standpoint. Yeah, and I'm nodding
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my head, not shaking my head. But yeah, it can be confusing,
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you know, Yes, that's true. Thank you for certain cultures where
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this is like nodding. So anyway, so, uh, the the what
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I was thinking about is how uh it's hard to forgive when you operate from
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toxic shame. And when I talk about that, it comes from the John
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Bradshaw's book Healing the Shame that Binds You because oftentimes, uh, what happens
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is we have some unaddressed trauma that gets passed down, like generational toxic shame,
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where we believe somehow that we're flawed and defective and that we need to
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be more than human too, over constant, come over compensate and justify over
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and justify being being less than human because somehow, like I said, we
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feel like we're flawed and defective, so we become human doings rather than human
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beings. And when we when we operate from that place, then it's not
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okay to make mistakes. But the thing is making mistakes is part of being
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human. And so yeah, so we can't forgive. We somehow believe that
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we need to be more than human because we're less than human. And so
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when we forgiveness is setting yourself free from the shackles of your toxic shame.
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And so when you can find that grace and compassion for yourself, then you
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can. You can. It gives you access to be able to give that
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to others as well, because we can't give what we're not receiving. And
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if you're not willing to give compassion and be kind to yourself, And it
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was a great question that my my therapist had posed to me, when are
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you gonna be kind and compassion to yourself, Charlie? And my knee jerk
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response was, I don't deserve to me, I don't deserve compassion. And
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so you know that was basically coming from a place of like, somehow,
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I'm flawed and defective and I need to punish myself and I need to be
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miserable because I don't because I'm such a I'm such a failure or whatever it
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is, you know, that was holding me back, that has me constantly
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judging myself and being a victim at the same time. So that's that's just
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a toxic place to be. And the outside world is a reflection of that
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inner world. So if you are living in that, then there's there's no
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possibility of that to be a reality in your environment because that's that's that's a
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filter in which you view the world through. Is that is that you're flawed
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and defective and and that you have to be super critical and that you know,
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people don't deserve second chances, that they have to to to be perfect,
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you know, all that all that belief system that you have to be
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more than human to be to be worthy, you know what I mean?
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So absolutely, yeah, So I'm shrinking talking about this because it's like gut
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wrenching for me to to tell one on myself like that, you know.
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So no, I mean, Charlie, this is what we're all about,
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being real, raw and real raw, elevant because if we can't, we
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want to demonstrate for anybody that's listening here. We live what we share on
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this podcast. None of us are telling you guys something we're not living.
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So Charlie, I wanted to say kudos to you for just putting it out
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there, because you you you you you're convicting me too in a way of
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like what you're saying, Bill is we're saying, hey, forgive other people,
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but if you can't even forgive yourself, there's no way you could forgive
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other people like you're saying Charlie, Right, Yeah, absolutely you can't.
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You can't love another until you love yourself. Yep, you know. And
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uh, and forgiveness definitely has to be a be a part of that.
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H Yeah. But but yeah, definitely kudos Charlie on on sharing your vulnerability.
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That's, uh, that's where growth comes from. When we can when
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we can expose that vulnerability, that that hidden aim, if you will,
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then then that's where we can find the support structure that we need to grow
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to the next level. Yeah. What what a gift to the people you
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you lead to Charlie, because I think oftentimes we try, I think we
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might have talked about this in a previous podcasts, but sometimes we put on
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the shell that we've got all together. You're not relatable, approachable, and
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the fact that you can you can share that and be that way. What
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what? What? What a blessing to those who get to work with you,
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Charlie and see your leadership in that area. I think too many leaders
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try to be bulletproof and not have you know, but they can. You
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can say here's how I made it, here's how I got through this,
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and they're like, oh, you did. I'm struggling with forgiving people.
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Well, start with myself exactly. Yeah. And the journey's critical for your
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ability to to move everyone to maturity and wholeness. Yeah. You know,
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I may be so bold, Yeah, but yeah, Yeah, it's all
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about UH, it's all about creating structures that allow us to uh to move
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things to the next level. Yep. And so Bill, I wanted to
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ask you. So you said that this one is about forgiveness and resilience.
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So where does the resilience tie in? Well, basically, when you can
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integrate forgiveness into UH into your core values, it UH, it enhances well
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being and UH and it can actually improve operational effectiveness, which leads to adaptation
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and resilience. It's a it's a building block. Yeah, and yeah,
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you want if you want the organization to to be able to adapt and anticipate
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and prepare for and fond to to change this and disruptions, then then you
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need to have this building block forgiveness, vulnerability, these things that are so
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often looked at by traditional leaders, if you will, as weaknesses. There
19:17
there were, there were air bunnies there quote unquote for those for those listening
19:22
to the audio, we'll go back and watch the video here on YouTube the
19:26
video there as well. Yes, uh but so so, just to follow
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up on that question, great question, Charlie and I know we're gonna get
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a little bit more and resilience, and we talked about this right before we
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got on here. But as you're forgiving others, uh Bill, My understanding
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is, like you said, kind of being free as we're we're being healed
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of that wound or that hurt that was put upon us because it's no longer
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we're not carrying that anymore. So in the healing process, if you will,
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that gives us the resilience. Is my the way I understand it is
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it's you're getting healed and now you're able to bounce back. You're being stronger
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and you're able to then face whatever else is coming towards you. But if
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you're just if you're continuing getting hit and you're pelted with this you know,
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offenses and being hurt and and over and over, you're just kind of being
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you know, crumpled. So it's getting you to be able to stand back
20:25
up, be resilient rubber band in a way of like, Okay, I
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can come back and I can face that the you know, the inevitable challenges
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that will continue to come right right. You can kind of think of it
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like holding back all these things, all these vulnerabilities, uh, you know,
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the the the unforgiveness, the the anxiety, the the what have you.
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That's that's that's not so great in your in your psyche that you're holding
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onto is like building house sand and uh, you know, when the when
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the disruptions come, when the when the when change happens, the rain,
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the rain falls. Then if you're built on sand, then the whole thing,
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the whole mess is just gonna fall apart. You need to let go
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of that of those vulnerabilities. You need to expose them so that they can
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heal. A wound, a wound that's that's bound isn't isn't bound to heal.
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You know, you have to you have to expose it to two things
21:37
that hurt. And you know, when you get a cut, the the
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alcohol doesn't feel so good, but it definitely definitely is antiseptic. It helps,
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it helps in the healing. And you know, it's funny using that
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as as an example, a lot of people will instead of going to rubbing
22:00
alcohol for cleaning a wound, they'll go to hydrogen peroxide because it doesn't feel
22:07
as bad, and it turns out that it's actually going to slow the healing
22:11
of the wound. It's good for debreading, but it isn't good for healing.
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So so yeah, so go to the go to the things that stinks,
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that stings, and you know what's going to it's going to help you
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heal and uh and be able to come back stronger than before. Right would
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you say? I mean again, sometimes people blow it off to and maybe
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they're like, I don't really need to forgive them, but they kind of
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still they still carry that. And again, I think what you're saying,
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Bill, what I'm hearing you say, is that enable that affects you and
22:44
your productivity, your responsibleness because you may not even be aware of it,
22:48
but it's just lagging. It's leading in there, slowing the process down instead
22:53
of speeding up it. And so where wherever we can remove that, even
22:56
if it's a little more painful, but it's going to go quicker than letting
23:00
it just linger linger on. I mean, anybody that's had anny kind of
23:04
long term medical problems, really, can I just get over this quicker?
23:08
Can I gets really faster? I can get through this because it's really annoying
23:12
and nagging. Right when you have something, it just it just keeps staying
23:17
in the back there there are no shortcuts. Well, I think the toll
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you were talking about earlier, Bill about when we hold on to forgive,
23:27
when we're holding back forgiveness or it affects our resilience, And I mean I
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just think of the mental for me, emotional but mental taxing to the point
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I don't even know aware sometimes of how much it's affecting me until I finally
23:42
let it go. Like in fact, I was talking to my wife this
23:45
past week because we were having a conversation about, you know, an area
23:48
where I missed the mark and just by hurry you will to vocalize it.
23:55
Here's here's here's what I'm by frustration, Here's where I'm at, you know,
23:59
trying to like let go. She's like, just by talking about it
24:02
and and leading into it, She's like, I just feel lighter, I
24:04
feel better about just even be able to like let this go and want it's
24:08
important to let you know where I'm at. And so I just listened and
24:11
was able to receive that, you know, yeah, own it absolutely,
24:21
yeah. And uh And businesses can can take advantage of of that too,
24:26
you know, doing doing things to foster that that environment of forgiveness can can
24:36
do things like, uh like produce absenteeism and turnover that all that negativity.
24:45
Who wants to be around that? Mm hmm. You know it affects It
24:48
affects everyone mm hmmm. And so you need to do things that build that
24:52
culture. Mm hmm. Yeah. Right, Well, I think and the
25:00
the when you focus on what's wrong with the situations or with people, then
25:07
what's missing. It's basically when you that's the focus. The that's basically that's
25:15
that's a byproduct of the absence of gratitude. And so I guess. A
25:25
acronym that I try to keep top of mind is EPR, which I almost
25:29
think of a CPR like eating life, into into the team, into each
25:33
environment and every situation. So e PR stands for encourage, praise and recognize.
25:41
And I was actually listening to a a YouTube recording by Terry Sabell Foy.
25:49
I don't know if you guys have come across her work, but she
25:52
does. She's a YouTuber that does ministry, and she was talking about how
26:00
this has been an experiment where you take three cups of you know, rice
26:03
grains that are you know, they're not cooked, but if you speak encouraging
26:10
where it's e PR right encourage, praise, recognize on the cup that on
26:15
one of the cups that that you label as positive, over a week,
26:21
it actually gives off like a really pleasant aroma. And the other two cups
26:26
one says like critical and one says like ignore. And on the critical one
26:32
you're you're you're talking negative to it and cussing at it, you know,
26:36
just demeaning it, and it actually turns fowel and obviously moldy and and and
26:41
roddy, and same thing with the one that you neglect that you ignore.
26:47
And so we're all whether you believe it, want to believe it or not,
26:52
we're all energy, right, We're all connected somehow. And when you
26:56
put out that gratitude, encourage, praise, recognition, and just being okay
27:03
with mistakes, right, because when you make it okay that it's it's okay
27:10
to make mistakes as long as you know you own up to it, you
27:12
know, having that extreme ownership because a humble person is more concerned about what's
27:18
right in every given situation about rather than being right all the time. And
27:25
so when you make that part of your culture, then people can it's okay
27:30
for them to show up and and and learn from their mistakes and and you
27:34
know, be able to grow and thrive from the EPR culture that that you
27:40
instill as opposed to rotting way because of always being critical. Like it's catching
27:45
people doing things right rather than catching them doing things wrong all the time or
27:51
or just neglecting them altogether. M hmm. Power of that energy, that's
27:56
that's a great observation, Charlie mm hmm. Yeah. And I think I
28:07
was gonna say, Bill, because I mean I liked how you know you
28:11
you I was looking at your outline and how you put this together if you
28:14
know this power forgiveness, And Charlie kind of was leading into it here.
28:17
It's like, you know, it's individual, there's an individual process, but
28:21
then there's also this, like you said, Charlie, a culture like that
28:25
needs to be more than just the individual, right, Bill, It starts
28:27
with individual. Yeah, it starts starts with in every well, every big
28:33
thing starts with an individual. And but but yeah, it needs to it
28:41
needs to propagate out, you know, you need to create One of one
28:47
of the things to to do to to create a culture of forgiveness is where
28:53
it's instilled in the culture that there are no failures, only learning experiences.
29:02
We we learned so much more from our failures than we do from our successes.
29:07
You know, i'd uh I I I almost cringe to at the at
29:15
the thought of ever hiring someone who's never failed. Oh yeah, yeah,
29:19
yeah, it's yeah. And you know, if you if you don't have
29:26
that, then if you don't have that in your culture, then failures are
29:30
our mistakes and uh, and they're bad. And so we can hold back
29:36
our forgiveness from that because it's a bad thing. But it's so much easier
29:41
when you're forgiving someone for a learning experience. Yeah. Absolutely, Uh that
29:49
that that's a great reminder it could be a mistake or you could And I
29:56
can't remember the exact story. This is just coming to minds you said this,
30:00
Uh, whether it was Dale Carnegie or one of these books I was
30:04
reading about. You know, this gentleman he had had this employee where,
30:11
you know, he lost a lot of money in the business and he said
30:12
to the employees, like, you're probably gonna fire me, right, He's
30:15
like, no, because that would be the mistake, right Bill if he
30:19
really he wasn't intentional or broken, but he for he realized that he could
30:23
learn from this and he wan't and he had a desire. And it wasn't
30:26
like this guy was just blazing like I want to be a terrible employ take
30:30
advantage of it. But that he said, Okay, now I'm gonna invest
30:33
this money and know that it's going to you know, it's going to help
30:37
me, and you won't make that mistake again and you'll learn how to you
30:40
know, pivot that. So it it wasn't you know, it was a
30:44
form of forgiveness, if you will, saying you know, I'm not holding
30:47
you to having to pay that back or whatever. I want you to learn
30:49
from that mistake and and move forward. So if we create that culture work
30:53
to what I hear you saying, Bill is you're creating the culture of like
30:57
and Charlie too. I think any are going Tozation says, you know,
31:00
we don't necessarily want to have failures, but we want to learn from the
31:03
failures because we know that will lead us to be more successful, and so
31:08
we need to be forgiving when we don't get it right. If the intent
31:12
or where we're trying to go is the right thing, if we're really going
31:18
in the right direction of the company, the vision. We've talked about this
31:19
in the past, right the vision, the values are we trying to live
31:23
those out to the best of our ability, and we all fall off what
31:27
we all do right. None of us are perfect, you know, we
31:33
violate our own values at times because we're we're an imperfect being if we're you
31:41
know, so I really appreciate what you're saying there, Bill is, like,
31:45
how to create that culture in space encouraging others two? Other Wise would
31:52
they would they be? I mean I don't think they would be as an
31:55
innovative or risk taking right right right, there'd be hear of taking any risks
32:02
or or innovating, you know, because the the response, I mean,
32:08
if if there's a if there's a fifty to fifty chance that you're gonna succeed,
32:15
probably not gonna try it, because you're going to get punished or for
32:21
failing. And and that's the worst thing you can do for failure, because
32:27
it's it's just so oppressive mm hmm, you know. And if you want
32:34
that that innovation, the new, the new, the new and better thing,
32:39
because that's how you're going to succeed in this world is and be able
32:43
to continue is by coming up with something new and better. You know.
32:49
Uh until back in the back in the eighties was actually a memory chip UH
32:55
manufacturer and UH and and companies from Japan were doing it cheaper and UH and
33:05
a little bit better. And somebody came up with the idea of pivoting completely
33:10
off of memory and going into UH into CPUs and UH and now there's an
33:17
Intel chip. There's an Intel chip at my desk, you know, you
33:23
know, and UH, and there's a pretty decent chance there's one at yours.
33:29
And if if innovation had been punished, was something that was punished.
33:34
If if risk taking was discouraged, then Intel probably wouldn't even exist anymore.
33:39
Mmmm. That's a great example. Well, you know, one of the
33:44
things that came to mind you were talking about built too in this culture of
33:49
resilience and forgiveness, culture of this community and connection. And and there's a
33:53
there's a passage in the Bible where one of Jesus' disciples talks to him and
33:59
he asked him like, how many time should I forgive somebody? And these
34:01
are all thinking, these really big saying seven times because you know, two,
34:05
one, two, three times, and we come on, and she
34:07
just says, no, not seven, not seven times, seven times seventy
34:13
I mean basically saying, you got to keep forgiving because this is our human
34:16
experience. And so if you're creating a culture, what I hear you saying
34:20
though, is you're creating that culture of Look, if you're trying, we
34:22
want to create this community and connection. You know, if you're if you
34:28
keep cutting off people, what community and connection are you going to have within
34:32
organization and the and the postmodern world if you if you will thrives on the
34:43
community and connection it's there's so much that's driven in uh, in today's in
34:50
today's workplace by connection. Hm. I mean people, people sacrifice all sorts
34:57
of things to connect with people on social media and uh, you know,
35:01
and find those little things that that that bring us together. Which is funny
35:07
that so many older people who don't understand the nature of social media are like,
35:12
well, they're not trying to bring us together. They're look, they're
35:15
they're separated, you know, but not really not in not in in in
35:21
all the ways that you can count that. And so so yeah, you
35:25
know, in today's in today's world, you have to you have to foster
35:30
that. Yeah, I mean the opposite is I mean I don't see this
35:36
benefiting us might personally, but there's a there's this idea of quote unquote cancel
35:40
culture or cutting people off. And then we Charlie, you talked about this
35:45
in the past about boundaries, and there's a place where boundaries don't get me
35:49
wrong, right, uh, And I think we'll probably have another conversation about
35:52
that one, Charlie. But but that being said, if we're if we're
35:59
if we're cutting off people consistently cut cut, cut, cut, cut,
36:01
and we're we just keep chill, having the doors there, we're going to
36:07
be alone, or we're gonna be or or to your point, Charlie,
36:12
the energy because I feel like sometimes the cancel culture. I'm just use that
36:15
as an example. Okay, it's a little bit a little bit of a
36:17
catchword, but I don't see a lot of positivity energy wise and good things
36:23
coming where you're that And like to your point of the rice, Charlie,
36:28
I see starting the things a rot and it goes down to the lowest common
36:31
anomen What what's your experience or thoughts there, Charlie. Yeah, it's funny
36:37
you mentioned that I was actually asking, and I want to give a shout
36:42
out to my friend to me who's been tuning into our weekly podcasts. Yeah,
36:50
so hey to me, I'm going to share my conversation with you.
36:55
I asked you, So, she's the recruiter over at In and Out,
37:00
and I asked her, how do you determine who would be a good fit?
37:05
And you know, she she says that we we hire people I'd love
37:08
to smile. And that reminded me of what Howard Schultz that the way he
37:15
answered that question, like when he an interviewer asked him, like, how
37:20
do you how do you get all your you know, uh, your Starbucks
37:24
employees to be to be always smiling. He said the same thing. I
37:30
just hire people that like to smile. And so the going back to the
37:37
what's that word you said, cancel culture? Cancel culture. Yeah, so
37:42
I see that, like the pandemic really exposed that type of culture. Because
37:47
the great resignation and the quiet quitting are not indictments on employees. Uh,
37:55
it's actually it's an indictment on employers that lack building a world class culture.
38:01
And so going back to the EPR encourage praise, recognized as leaders, we
38:07
need to do better. The employees deserve better. I'm taking these from a
38:14
book that's going to be coming up soon that's released by John de Julius,
38:17
which we've been following him. He was the author of the world The Customer
38:23
Service Revolution. So he they're coming out with a book called The Employee Experience
38:28
Revolution, and he he he and his co author says that we need to
38:34
build the type of company that helps employees be their best selves and have an
38:39
opportunity to live their best lives. And so more than ever before, talent
38:47
finding good talent is based on what type of culture that you're going to,
38:53
and that's really what's gonna build the resilience of your business is if your people,
38:59
if you're staff, are raving fans of like what Richard Sir Richard Branson
39:05
talks about, Yuh, treat them, I'm sorry, like train them so
39:12
well that they can leave you, but treat them so well that they won't
39:15
want to. Yes, So yeah, that's that's that's what Ultimately, that
39:20
forgiveness culture will lead to resilience because then your business becomes strong because of the
39:28
bond and the culture that that you create that foster's growth. Well said Charlie,
39:34
thank you. Yeah. Absolutely couldn't have said it better myself. Uh
39:42
uh, but yeah, it makes me think of of ways too to encourage
39:46
that in the culture, to to build it in you know, things like
39:52
like recognition that has value to to the employees. We're not in the we're
39:58
not in the gold Watch for Old anymore. We're in a place where where
40:04
something as simple as as the old lad a boy and a pat on the
40:07
back can be just as important. Yeah, I would add two, Bill,
40:15
I think you know, it's one thing to have a forgiveness in a
40:20
conversation with a person individually, but there's also again building this culture. I
40:25
found it powerful too, tumbling, Charlie, like you're talking about when it's
40:30
one on one if I had an issue with you, Bill. But it's
40:34
also to not say publicly but go wider with an apology or for forgiveness of
40:42
when you've done wrong or you're forgiving, particularly when you've done wrong, and
40:46
brings forgiveness, brings healing, brings resilience built to your point where you can
40:51
build that resilience and culture is that you can do it. I don't even
40:53
do this with my own wife. Sometimes I'll you know, we are forgiving
40:58
each other, but we will do it. I have to be more cognizant
41:00
of this. But do it in front of our children, so because they
41:02
may have observed that the challenge or the frustration right, but then they didn't
41:07
see the resolution. So it's bringing that back into the forefront of the organization
41:14
and saying, yeah, we had this issue. In fact, I had
41:16
this. Even in our trail Life group. There was a conflict between a
41:20
couple of dads and we worked through it and the next week we came back
41:23
and we talked through it with all the boys in front that we had a
41:25
disagreement, here's how we resolved it, and it was very you know,
41:30
forthcoming and transparent. I felt like it was it was not just those two
41:34
people, a big, big, greater healing to the organization. So to
41:37
me, that's a way of building that culture of resilience you're talking about,
41:40
Bill, is when it's appropriate, look to bring it out further within the
41:45
organization. And like people are like, oh, it's not just being closed
41:47
doors right right right, yeah, yeah, Hiding the resolution is is definitely
42:00
a way to to keep the unforgiveness the rock and the shoe right there.
42:07
And uh so yeah and uh so, uh yeah. As part of as
42:15
part of creating that culture forgiveness, which leads to resilience is is to establish
42:23
things like like conflict resolution mechanisms and uh encouraging dialogue and uh and forgiveness.
42:35
You know, training people in how to do that and how to do conflict
42:39
resolution is is definitely a way to to do it. But of course,
42:45
it all it all comes down to leading by example. You know, uh,
42:51
show show not only that you that you make mistakes, but that you
42:57
can forgive mistakes. That you understand that these things happen and uh and you
43:02
need to uh to move forward from them. You know this goes back to
43:08
back to failures being learning opportunities. Yep, And you just brought up a
43:15
good point too, bill. Uh. You know there's a place, there's
43:17
a time and a place depending on how how vast the you know, the
43:22
hurt is the forgiveness is necessary to bring in a third party or a mediator,
43:29
if you will. If this is something, don't I mean, be
43:32
smart about it. I think as a business owner, I've made this mistake
43:37
sometimes where I've I've actually tried to you know, forgive or come and recognize
43:45
my own mistakes, and there was still rawness and there was still I just
43:50
I didn't handle the best as well I could. And so I want to
43:53
encourage everybody's listening. If you don't reach out to us, We've had all
43:57
of us have had experience in this is your hearing. Or find somebody else
44:00
that I can help you. There's nothing wrong with that. It's like going
44:05
to the doctor if you know, right, you know, I can't just
44:07
get some over the counter medicine and need something greater at this point to fix
44:12
this so again to your point, go doctor earlier, Yeah, and invest
44:16
right, invest in getting the healing so it can be done quicker. Right,
44:21
what like the dentist, Right, I don't want to, like have
44:23
a lingering toothache and like that, I keep going on. I want to
44:27
I'd rather get it fixed as quickly as possible so I can move on get
44:30
healing because there's other issues I got to deal with, right, And these
44:32
can be nagging issues like we talked about earlier, productivity, engagement, loss
44:37
of team members. I mean, there's a lot of things here, and
44:39
if it keeps lingering on, so the sooner you can invest. And sometimes
44:45
I think that's a barrier, like well, I don't want to invest any
44:47
money your additional time. I'm like, well, that's shortsightedness, right,
44:51
I mean, get the healing quicker, sooner, don't delay. Yeah,
45:00
it's like I want to go see doctor Nick because he's cheap instead of uh
45:05
in, instead of doctor Oh shoot, now I can't remember the name of
45:07
the good doctor on on Simpsons Hall on everybody you know the guy who the
45:15
guy who got is his doctor his doctoral degree in uh in a box of
45:20
cracker jacks. Oh yeah, it's gonna be cheap, but uh, you
45:23
know, you're you're gonna pay for it in the end, you know,
45:28
So so you might as well buy the buy the right thing in the first
45:31
place and do it. Uh yeah, just uh you know, integrated into
45:37
uh into your TTP, your your tactics, techniques and procedures. We're talking
45:44
about it doing the right thing. Yeah, speaking of doing the right thing
45:50
in the first place, is is hiring tough that way you manage easy because
45:58
if you if you hire and it's not the right fit and you want to
46:02
give them forgiveness and give them as many chances as possible, but they're just
46:07
not the right fit. That's cancerous to the to your culture as well.
46:10
That what what you're trying to build. And so hire tough managers. That's
46:16
that's a whole other that's a whole other podcast episode. Charlie, I hear
46:20
it. I hear it. I hearing how to hire for your business.
46:24
So Charlie, you're gonna come back and they're gonna help with on that.
46:27
That conversation. So I know we're getting close to our crime bill is their
46:32
last we're kind of getting to the end of our podcast today. Well on
46:39
on what on what Charlie to go off of what Charlie just said, You
46:45
can't do things to be liked by your people, but if you do the
46:52
right things by them, you will be. And some of those right things
46:57
are going to be tough, you know, ripping off the band aids uh
47:00
and uh and pouring the alcohol on. But uh. But in the end,
47:06
if you hired tough and you do the right things, they will adore
47:12
you, which means longevity, which means lower training expenses, which means higher
47:19
productivity, which means more profits and uh and quite frankly, a much more
47:23
enjoyable workplace, yes, absolutely, and a resilient business, a resilient bit.
47:31
Hey, Bill, I want to thank you. I thank you for
47:34
bringing this topic on tonight. Uh, forgiveness and resilience. I think there's
47:38
a lot more we could go into. But I hope, I hope that,
47:42
I hope that as folks listen to this, they realize how applicable it
47:45
is in business. It's not just in your personal life. Yeah, by
47:50
any means, I've taken a lot away from this hearing both of you share
47:52
your own own journeys here. Yeah, and it's not just about that your
47:58
business becoming resilient. It's all the lives that you get to impact for for
48:01
your staff and so great companies help people live extraordinary, extraordinary lives, and
48:08
their leaders inspire their their employees to build lives of meaning and purpose. Awesome.
48:20
None of this is to say that I I haven't had my problems with
48:22
forgiveness, but you know I've there. There have been a few people I've
48:29
I've I've wished my vengeance upon and uh and all of it, and it
48:35
just it stops real growth, you know it. You know, it keeps
48:40
you, keeps you down, and once you let go of it, it
48:44
feels so good and uh, you know it leads to uh to so many
48:51
more wonderful things. Yes, new possibilities, baby, Yes, yes awesome.
48:58
Thank you so much, Bill, Thank you some Charlie. As we
49:00
wrap it up tonight, we'll come back with more engaging topics. Maybe Charlie's
49:06
got a few in coming up here, hiring and boundaries and other great topics
49:09
that you have othersould like to hear. Let us know. I then thank
49:15
you Charlie and Bill for coming back on the Business Roundtable podcast, and hope
49:20
everybody that is listening We do encourage you to like, subscribe all of those
49:23
good things. It really helps us get the word out. Please feel free
49:28
to share us. We're on all the podcast platforms like I said, YouTube.
49:31
We broadcast weekly on LinkedIn as well, so connect with anyone one of
49:36
us is on there as well. And again, thank you guys for joining
49:39
here with us, and have a next great night until next time all too
49:45
thanks Hi guys, my pleasure