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Listening Without Being Defensive · Trauma Free Relationship

0:00
Do you ever find yourself listening to your partner only
0:05
for an opening to respond? Do you ever listen and get
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triggered and have to immediately reply or you'll lose
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your train of thought? Or do you ever listen to your
0:17
partner and feel misunderstood in their characterization of you
0:21
or your intent? The problem here is that we
0:25
often listen through defensiveness instead of
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curiosity. So today we're going to flip
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that around and talk about how to listen from a place of
0:35
openness and curiosity so we can take the conversations deeper so
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both partners end up feeling heard and understood.
0:46
Welcome to trauma free relationship.
0:48
I'm your host, Tom Phil and I've been working for years with
0:51
adults who struggle with relational trauma to regain
0:54
trust in themselves and others so that they can spirits a safe
0:59
and secure relationship. Let's get started.
1:10
OK. As I stated in the opening,
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we're going to talk today about listening without being
1:17
defensive. How do we listen to our partner,
1:20
how do we listen to anybody without immediately moving into
1:24
some sort of defensive posture? Now, when I say defensive, I'm
1:30
kind of using that in a very Broadway defensiveness.
1:33
I can mean that, yes, you get triggered.
1:35
You might go into fight, flight, freeze or fawn or peas, which is
1:40
what fawning is, but you don't necessarily have to be triggered
1:44
and go into fight or flight. Sometimes listening to defense
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defensively means that you're just constantly listening for an
1:53
opportunity for you to jump in and reply, or you're listening
1:58
without understanding or the with the use of, of empathy or
2:02
validation. What is, what is this person
2:05
really trying to get at? What are, what is the deeper
2:08
meaning they're trying to express here?
2:10
What might they be feeling behind what they're saying?
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Not just the content, but how are they engaging with that
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content in terms of their emotions, and how is that
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informing what they're saying? So when we listen defensively,
2:26
it blocks us from being able to use one of the greatest tools we
2:32
have at our disposal, and that is empathy.
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How can we step into somebody else's frame of reference?
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How can we understand what somebody else might be feeling,
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even though we can never fully inhabit their body, even though
2:48
we can never fully understand completely what their experience
2:53
is? Empathy allows us to be able to
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make a conjecture. Oh, I wonder if it's like this
3:01
for them. Oh, I wonder if they're feeling
3:04
this way. And then if we ask questions to
3:08
clarify or we even make an empathic statement, they can
3:12
confirm and deny that. Now this happens every day in,
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in, in good coaching sessions, in good therapy sessions with
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people where a therapist or coach might say, oh, and you're
3:26
feeling such and such. Oh, and you hoped for this.
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Oh, that must have felt so bad. You were really hoping your
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partner will respond X way this way and they can confirm or deny
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that. Yes, that's exactly right.
3:40
I was hoping that. Yeah.
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And so you bring that feeling alive because you're also tying
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it to an expectation that is just good listening skills and
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it's good use of empathy. So when I say how can we listen
3:56
without being defensive, I'm talking one about, yes, how can
4:01
we? How can we bracket our own
4:05
perspective long enough to be able to understand what somebody
4:09
else is truly saying? And of course, I'm also saying,
4:12
yes, how do we recognize that if we do get triggered, if we do go
4:16
into fight, flight, freeze or fawn, then then how do we
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regulate ourselves so that we can get back to a place where we
4:25
are able to listen more openly? You know, when we talk about
4:30
listening defensively, a lot of times what that looks like in
4:35
reality is interrupting somebody's saying something and
4:39
you jump in to add something or you jump in to maybe switch the
4:42
subjects back to you. It it, it might look a lot like
4:47
explaining yourself quickly. So this is that that cycle I
4:51
talked about where, you know, one partner might be attacking
4:55
and the other partner might be defending.
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This certainly can look like that right where where it feels
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like you're being criticized so you constantly start to explain
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why you're doing what you're doing and or explain what you
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mean. I said this, but I'm I'm not
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confident that you're getting it.
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So now I'm going to give you a 5 minute explanation of what I was
5:16
trying to say in the 1st place. Certainly just feeling
5:20
misunderstood before the other person even finishes.
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And of course, if you do get triggered, then you're your
5:28
chest might feel tight, you might feel the urge to correct,
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you might feel the urge to jump in and interrupt.
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All these things can come with being triggered for sure.
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It's important to remember as we move through this defensiveness
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is is often a fear of being seen inaccurately or losing
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connection. Those are some of the two main
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drivers of listening defensively that what you're saying about me
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right now is inaccurate. And I need to, I feel like I
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need to correct that. You're saying something about my
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character or my intention, and that is different than the way I
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see myself. It's different than the
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motivation I had for our interaction.
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It's different than the identity I have of myself.
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And I feel like I need to correct that.
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And so oftentimes we jump in and that's not always a bad thing.
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We are built and wired in a way that we try to correct our
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perceptions. We try to correct wrong
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perceptions of us by communicating our intent behind
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things. And of course, if we're fearful
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of being misperceived or fearful of a connection or rupture that
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might happen, that can certainly cause us to listen defensively
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as well. And so those are just some of
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the ways that that if you're talking with somebody and you
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begin to notice that they sort of jump in, interrupt, or they
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might shift the conversation back to them, or they might
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interrupt because they're wanting to clarify or they're
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wanting to, you know, correct some misjudgment about them.
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Then often you can look at that and feel like, man, my partner's
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just really defensive. And so, you know, if we look at
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this through an an attachment lens, right, because we talked a
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lot about attachment on this podcast, then this certainly
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looks like, you know, the anxious person, if I don't fix
7:36
this, I'll lose you. So they definitely jump in with
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a sense of urgency. They definitely can.
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All of a sudden you can feel their emotion kind of coming at
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you because their, their attachment has been
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hyperactivated. And so they're wanting to fix
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this correction. They're wanting to over explain.
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They're wanting to go on and on and on and, and clarify and
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clarify and clarify ad nauseam because they're afraid that if
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they don't that that, that that bond is going to break between
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them and somebody else. From an avoidant perspective,
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they actually tried to block this stuff out.
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If I let this in, I'll be controlled or I'll be shamed.
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And so often time they shut down and they start to move away.
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That is their way of being defensive in a sense.
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They just don't say anything, but they block out the person's
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feelings. They block out the person's
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content often times because what they're what they're doing is
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they're saying if I don't put up a wall here, then then all of
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this anxiety, all of this emotion is going to make me feel
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horrible about myself or I'm going to be so out of control I
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can't fix it. And this thing's going to
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escalate. So the anxious person can be so
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consumed with anxiety that that can be a type of defense.
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The avoidant person can completely shut out any anxiety
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or any emotion at all, which can be a defense.
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And of course, the disorganized person, this can feel so
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dangerous that they don't know what to do.
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So they might shut down. They might then get really angry
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and critical. They might, you know, launch
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back with a complaint. They might completely switch the
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subject and talk about themselves.
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They might take the partner down a rabbit hole.
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What about you? What about you?
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You do this, you do that. And so we see a lot of these
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kind of what I call mental manipulations at times, right?
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Where the person's getting defensive and so they want to
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get the focus off of them. And so they'll launch an attack
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back to their partner or they'll bring up a subject.
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Well, what about this time you did this?
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You're, you're just being contradictory and so on and so
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forth. And then they start going down
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1,000,000 rabbit holes and not really addressing what the
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primary subject was about. And so the disorganized person,
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like, like all the other one, like anxious and avoidant can
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certainly do that as well. And so, you know, it's, it's
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important to be able to recognize some of these
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maneuvers that if our partner is getting defensive, our body is
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likely telling us that they're getting defensive because we can
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see it in their face, we can hear it in their tone.
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You know, we can see it in the content in which they respond if
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they attack back or they start just explaining, well, no, that
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what that's not what happened. I did this because of that and
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so on and so forth. And, and, and so we need to be
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able to be aware in our conversations when our partners
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getting defensive. And then certainly we need to be
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able to be aware of of ourselves when we're getting defensive.
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And so from a secure standpoint, what that person's able to do is
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they're able to say, this is uncomfortable, but I can stay
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present. I don't like this, this is
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uncomfortable, but I can see myself starting to get a little
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defensive. And I'm going to, I'm going to
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keep a lid on that. I'm going to keep it, keep it
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down enough that I can stay open, that I can stay engaged
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and I can stay emotionally available and responsive to my
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partner so that I don't get overly defensive.
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And so all of those things are really important from an
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attachment lens and how we might show up in, in our own
11:39
defensiveness, but also how our partners might show up to us
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when they get defensive and, and they've lost the ability to have
11:49
empathy or to listen in a more open and, and compassionate way
11:56
towards us. You know, listening defensively.
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It it, there's a cost to it, right?
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And if you've ever studied any of John Gottman's stuff, he
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talks about the Four Horsemen. And he was able to predict with
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97.5% accuracy those relationships that would not
12:17
last past five years. And he was able to predict that
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because he was able to recognize that there were four things that
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showed up chronically in a relationship that actually
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started to deteriorate the emotional bond between the
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people. It actually eventually broke the
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attachment tie because these things showed up in a chronic
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way. And one of those was
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defensiveness. The partner constantly gets
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defensive, the person constantly has to explain themselves or
12:50
attacks back, can never take accountability for for their
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behavior or for what they say or for what they do, or they try to
13:00
always explain it away. They're never able to use
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empathy to understand their partner or come to their partner
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and be able to say, you know, that wasn't my intent to hurt
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your feelings, but I can certainly see where my actions
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did. And I'm so sorry that you got
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hurt. I'm sorry for what I said in
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that moment, I felt like my back is against the wall.
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And when that happens, I know myself, I kind of just launch
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into an attack. And that's exactly what happened
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for me. And I, I, I've got to work on
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that because I know that that doesn't help us.
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I know how that shows up in our cycle.
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And, and I fully recognize that that was my part in what an, in
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our interaction that happened the other day.
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Taking accountability is crucial in being able to break those
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cycles because what it means is you're taking full
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accountability of your defensiveness when it shows up.
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So defensiveness has some real consequences.
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First of all, the speaker feels unseen and often unsafe right
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when they're trying to explain something.
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Even if they come in a soft, more open way, even if they're
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not coming in a in a really anxious way, or they're not
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coming in an attacking way or blaming way, if the other
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partner gets defensive, it really breaks any ability for
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the speaker to be able to feel seen and heard.
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The listener often feels misunderstood and alone as well.
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And so often times if they do come and attack there, of course
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they're going to put up their walls.
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Because if the speaker's not coming from a place of openness
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and vulnerability, then they're probably coming in with a tone
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that says you're in trouble, you're not getting this right.
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You got to sit here and take this.
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And so the listener often feels way mischaracterized and
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misunderstood as well. Often times the issue never gets
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resolved. It just gets recycled and, and
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there's a favorite saying of mine, we repeat what we don't
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repair. And so when we come and we have
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these the defensive style conversations as opposed to more
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repairing conversations, then then we just end up repeating
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that same cycle because neither partner in those moments feel
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heard, neither feel understood, and neither know quite what to
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do to break out of it and fix it sometimes.
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And so over time, as you could imagine, this just starts to
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erode the emotional bond between partners.
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It starts to erode the connection between anybody.
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Maybe you have a boss that's highly defensive.
15:44
Maybe you have a supervisor that can never take any kind of
15:48
feedback that that constantly wants to micromanage and control
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that never is able to listen or, or takes your your suggestions
15:59
and uses it as their own because they're so insecure.
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We see this all the time play out in our workplaces.
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We might see it with with the best friend where you might have
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a best friend that constantly feels like they have to draw the
16:11
attention of the conversation to them and is never able to really
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sit with your feelings and your perspectives on things.
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So over time, that what that does, it just creates tension
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and it creates dissatisfaction in the relationship.
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And so there's real consequences to to to defensive listening.
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And, and that's because defensiveness, it protects you
16:38
in the moment, but it costs you connection in the long run.
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I'm going to say that again, defensiveness, it protects you
16:45
in the moment, but it costs you consequences and connection in
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the long run. And so that's why it's important
16:52
for us to really learn how do we put down our walls?
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How do we learn to sort of open up and to be a little more open
17:05
to what our partner is saying, even when it's difficult.
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So let's switch that now. Let's let's switch.
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I mean, you kind of get an idea of what defensiveness is.
17:15
You kind of get an idea of the problem and then what it shows
17:17
up like in our relationships now, how do we start listening
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without being as defensive? One of the first things we have
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to do is we've got to regulate ourselves often times before we
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respond. So if your partner comes to you
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and they're emotional about something, or even if it feels a
17:36
little attacking, we've got to be able to regulate ourselves
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for this conversation. So we need to take in a slow
17:43
breath. We need to drop our shoulders
17:46
and try to relax our body. We need to say to ourself this
17:50
is uncomfortable, but I can withstand this.
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I can stay engaged in what my partner is saying or we need to
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say to ourself they're upset right now.
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But this isn't personal. Don't take this personally.
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It's not about you as a person. They're upset, or maybe they're
18:07
feeling sad behind the anger, or maybe they're feeling scared
18:11
behind the anger. Whatever that might be, we can
18:15
get to the bottom of this. And so all you're trying to do
18:18
is regulate yourself and stay in that window of tolerance.
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And you've probably heard me talk about that before on this
18:25
podcast. But the window of tolerance is
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our ability to stay regulated so that we stay grounded, clear and
18:32
connected, connected to our cells and connected to our
18:35
partner. When we do that, we're staying
18:39
in an area of our brain where we can use our full brain.
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We're not into fight or flight. Our amygdala area, which is the
18:45
emotional center of our brain, has not been hijacked.
18:48
And we can use our prefrontal cortex, which is our logic, our
18:51
reasoning, our our planning and our organizing of what is
18:56
happening in this moment. We can make sense of it.
18:58
We can have clarity about it. And even if we do get a little
19:02
bit lost, we can ground ourselves well enough to hold on
19:06
long enough to eventually get clarity.
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And I don't know what's really happening right now.
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My partner seems really upset, but I'm just going to stay in
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this place. I'm going to stay regulated even
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though this is uncomfortable. And I'm going to trust that
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we're going to figure out what the root of this is.
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And so regulating yourself is really a a crucial first step.
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And like I said, maybe that means you ground yourself a
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little bit. Maybe that means you look away
19:35
and you look for five colors you can name in the room and you
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look for four objects in a moment.
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And you can do that fairly quickly and still listen to your
19:43
partner, but you're doing something that to stay present.
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Maybe you even communicate to your partner.
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I, I'm, I, I can we lower the intensity of this?
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I'm starting to feel a little bit closed off and I don't want
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to do that. I really want to hear what you
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have to say and I want to be able to stay engaged in this
20:01
conversation. So if we can lower the
20:04
intensity, that would really help me.
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So even being able to communicate something like that
20:09
is crucial, is huge to be able to do in in those interactions
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that happen because the more you stay regulated, the more your
20:20
ability to stay open and engaged is more likely to occur.
20:26
OK #2 separate impact from intent.
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You can have good intentions and still cause harm.
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When my child was, was young, I have two, two boys, they're
20:37
older now, but when they were very young, once three years
20:40
older than the other, they would get to playing.
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And inevitably the older one would end up hurting the younger
20:46
one and the 1st and, and the younger one would cry.
20:49
And of course they would come to myself or, or my wife and, you
20:52
know, my brother hurt me, you know, and the first thing the
20:58
older brother would say is I didn't mean to, I didn't mean
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to. And we always had to work with
21:03
him and say, yes, we know, we know you all were playing.
21:07
You all were both playing rough. And we know what happens with
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the happens. You're bigger than him and we
21:12
know you're going to hurt him. We also know that you don't mean
21:15
to, you're just playing. And we had to teach him the
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difference between intent versus actions.
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You need to apologize to your brother because we know you
21:25
didn't mean to hurt him, but you still did, and so being able to
21:30
teach him that also taught him how to take responsibility for
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his actions. Yes, I know I hurt my brother
21:38
because I'm bigger and I need to learn to play a little more
21:40
gently with him because he's smaller than I am.
21:44
That doesn't mean I'm a bad person and it doesn't mean I
21:46
have any intent to try to hurt him after after.
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Well, it actually took a while. I shouldn't say after a little
21:53
while. It actually took a while.
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But he was able to learn that and he was able to do that more
21:59
on his own. If he found his brother starting
22:02
to get hurt, he could stop, he could back off and he could say,
22:05
sorry, I didn't mean to do that. And then his little brother
22:08
would go, oh, that's OK. And then probably attack him
22:10
back and provoke it at all again.
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But but you know, the difference between that is that we're able
22:15
to take responsibility for our behaviors and recognize that
22:19
even though that wasn't our intent, we still might have hurt
22:22
somebody. We need to be able to listen
22:26
without necessarily agreeing. We can listen to somebody, we
22:31
can validate the content of what they're saying, or we can
22:35
validate the feelings behind it. And it doesn't mean we have to
22:39
agree. And that is where empathy comes
22:42
in, because empathy is just being able to hold multiple
22:45
perspectives at the same time. You and your partner sitting
22:50
down talking. You and your partner have a
22:52
difference about how we're going to handle, you know, certain
22:56
behavior with one of your children.
22:58
You can sit and listen openly to your partner without shutting
23:02
down, without demeaning them, without criticizing, without
23:06
blame, and still hold your perspective.
23:09
That's just good use of empathy. You can let your partner know.
23:13
So what you think we ought to do is we ought to ground our son
23:18
because he got in trouble at school and and you want to just
23:22
ground him? I don't think grounding him is
23:25
actually going to help change the behavior.
23:28
Well, but if we don't ground him, then he doesn't know that
23:30
there's not any consequences for his behavior.
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I agree we need there needs to be some consequences, but I
23:36
don't want to ground him and and not actually teach him what to
23:40
do different next time. Well, that's all fine and good,
23:43
but he also has to recognize that he was in the wrong here.
23:45
And so you can see this kind of going back and forth, right?
23:48
And so one person might be more defensive, the other person
23:51
might be more open. How do both partners work
23:54
towards a capacity to be open to hearing each other's
23:58
perspectives so that they come up with an approach that works
24:02
for them so that they also present themselves as unified
24:05
front to their child? So being able to listen openly
24:11
means that we can actually hear both perspectives.
24:14
It doesn't mean we have to agree with both, but we can understand
24:18
those being able to. This is #3 reflect before you
24:22
defend. So what I'm hearing is blank.
24:27
Did I get that right? So this is something that a lot
24:31
of coaches do in their coaching sessions, right?
24:33
What I hear you saying is that you get really frustrated when
24:37
you share your feelings with your partner because you feel
24:39
like he completely dismisses your feelings.
24:42
Am I getting that right? Yes, that's exactly right.
24:45
And when he dismisses your feelings, you don't obviously
24:48
feel heard, but you also don't feel like a priority to your
24:51
partner, like you aren't aren't important enough for him to be
24:56
able to listen and sit with your feelings, which also makes you
24:59
feel very alone in the relationship.
25:01
Yes, that's exactly right. That's even more right.
25:04
OK, I get that. So with that, what you just
25:07
heard me do was not only an empathic response, so I
25:11
reflected back what they were saying, but I also took it one
25:14
step further. I imagine that if you're feeling
25:18
this way, you might also feel this way.
25:20
Am I getting that right? And then the person can can
25:24
either validate that, yes, that's exactly right, or they
25:29
can say, well, no, it's not that.
25:31
It's not that I feel alone. It's just that I feel really
25:35
unappreciated in those moments. Oh, OK, I get that.
25:38
That makes sense. You feel unappreciated.
25:40
Yes, yes, that's right. And so people give you feedback.
25:44
When you get it wrong, they let you know you get it wrong.
25:47
And so being able to just reflect back, I think also slows
25:52
the process down. One of the things I think it
25:55
does is it also helps those interactions, whether it's with
26:00
our partner, a colleague, A sibling, whomever might be, slow
26:05
that conversation down in a way that allows us to be able to
26:09
stay more regulated and to hear each other better.
26:14
Number four, name the vulnerability underneath the
26:17
defense. Usually if somebody is
26:20
defensive, it's because of two things.
26:22
It's because, one, they're feeling misunderstood, or two,
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it's because they're scared of losing the connection.
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Both can be extremely vulnerable.
26:32
Feeling misunderstood throws us into a place of shame because it
26:36
makes us feel like how we see ourselves is wrong and nobody
26:41
wants to feel shameful about who they are.
26:44
It's one of the most difficult emotions that we can feel about
26:51
ourselves and there's all kinds of ways that we actually defend
26:55
against it. But feeling like not that I did
26:58
wrong, but I am wrong. How I see myself, who I think I
27:03
am is now being questioned by the partner that the person that
27:07
matters most to me in this world throws me into a place of shame.
27:12
And so that or the fact that I'm fearful of losing the connection
27:17
are two of the biggest drivers of defensiveness.
27:20
So if you keep those in mind when you go and have a, a, a
27:25
difficult conversation with somebody, whether that be your
27:29
boss, whether that be, you know, anybody else, you're like I
27:33
said, a colleague, a friend, your partner, then keep that in
27:37
mind that if you see somebody getting defensive, it might
27:40
likely be one of these two things.
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Are they scared of something, scared of losing the
27:45
relationship, scared of losing the connection?
27:49
Or are they in shame, scared that somehow what they're
27:54
hearing is making them feel unworthy, unaccepted, wrong, bad
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as a person? Because often times those are
28:04
the two drivers of defensiveness.
28:07
And so being able to recognize that in your partner and also, I
28:13
might add, recognize that in yourself is absolutely crucial
28:18
in terms of being able to listen without being defensive.
28:27
Let's just try something here together.
28:29
And, and I, you know, if you're driving, you know, you can do
28:32
this later, you can play this back because I don't want you to
28:34
be in an unsafe situation to do this.
28:37
But let's just imagine this guided exercise for a moment.
28:40
So kind of just take a deep breath and relax your body and
28:45
follow through with me. So this is sort of an embodied
28:49
integration that's happening now.
28:50
I want you to imagine someone giving you some hard feedback.
28:55
Maybe this isn't hard to imagine.
28:56
Maybe you'd have job reviews where you go in and you have
28:59
people that give you feedback on your performance so you can put
29:03
yourself in that situation. Maybe you've heard your wife or
29:05
husband tell you before, yeah, this is something you really
29:08
kind of need to work on because it really can cause a problem in
29:11
our relationship, whatever that may be.
29:14
Just sort of try to take a deep breath, relax your body.
29:18
Now imagine somebody giving you that hard feedback.
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Notice where your body tightens. Do you automatically feel a pain
29:27
in your stomach? Does your chest constrict and
29:31
get tight? Do your shoulders tense up?
29:36
Do you see yourself almost shrinking and feeling small?
29:41
Do you start to sort of spin out and all of a sudden you're
29:44
getting really anxious and your mind starts playing 100
29:47
different scenarios? Now I want you just to place
29:51
your hand on that spot, wherever it might be.
29:54
Might be your abdomen, might be your heart, might be your head,
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and I just want you to repeat after me.
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I can listen without losing myself.
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I can listen without losing myself.
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Understanding comes before responding.
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This is uncomfortable, this is hard.
30:19
But I can, I can get through this.
30:22
I can withstand this. Right now, my partner's upset,
30:27
but I know we can get past this and we'll get to a better place.
30:32
This may be hard to hear, but it doesn't mean you're a bad
30:37
person. Any of those kinds of statements
30:41
in the moment can be empathic statements to yourself.
30:46
And just like we want to use empathy and validation to our
30:48
partner, we want to use empathy and validation for ourselves as
30:54
well. How can we get ourselves in a
30:57
place that when we're listening to something that makes us
31:00
uncomfortable, we can recognize that we can locate that in our
31:04
body and we can employ some techniques that really begin to
31:09
help us be able to listen non defensively?
31:15
How can we stay more open and engaged with others in a way
31:20
that helps us expand who we are? Because believe it or not,
31:24
through this process, when we listen more to less defensively
31:30
or listen without being defensive, we actually learn to
31:33
grow and expand not only how we see ourselves, but how we see
31:38
others. And so in these moments, these
31:41
are really growth producing moments.
31:43
They're, they're painful, they're uncomfortable.
31:46
But but as I've often fond of telling others, growth comes
31:50
through pain. Growth hurts.
31:52
It hurts when we were kids and we had growing pains in our legs
31:56
or our arms. And it can hurt when we're
31:58
adults because we're expanding our subjective sense of who we
32:03
are. So being able to listen without
32:07
being defensive is growth producing.
32:11
I'm Tom Phil, and I'm here to remind you to stay grounded,
32:14
clear, and connect.