Latest / Liberty + Leadership / Behind the Editor’s Desk with Sierra McClain

Transcript

Behind the Editor’s Desk with Sierra McClain · Liberty + Leadership

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast, a conversation with TFAS alumni, faculty and friends who are making an impact.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Today I'm your host, roger Ream.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Today, my guest is Assistant Editorial Features Editor at the Wall Street Journal, sierra McLean.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Sierra was the 2023 Joseph Rago Fellow at the Journal and on completion of her fellowship, she joined the staff there.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: The Joseph Rago Fellowship was established by the parents of the late Joe Rago, who was an outstanding journalist and winner of the 2011 Pulitzer Prize for Editorial Writing.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Tfas works with the Journal and Joe's parents, paul and Nancy Rago, to select outstanding young journalists and provide them with an opportunity to work at the journal for up to nine months.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Sierra was our sixth Joseph Rago Fellow in 2023-2024.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Prior to becoming a Rago Fellow, sierra was a correspondent for the Capital Press, a regional newspaper covering agricultural business in California, oregon, washington and Idaho.
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: Sierra attended the University of Oregon, earning a bachelor's degree in history and a master's in journalism.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: Sierra, thank you so much for joining me.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: I appreciate it.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: This week I was at the offices of the Wall Street Journal for a meeting and when I walked around the corner there were three past Joseph Rago fellows you, elliot Kaufman and Faith Bottom.
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: And then I went into a meeting with our two current fellows, luke Lyman and Jillian Letterman, and I must say it was really a great thrill for me to see all five of you there and to think about the legacy we've created for Joe Rago, who was an outstanding journalist, and I know his parents just love the fact that we've got this line of young journalists now who are following in Joe's footsteps.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: Let me begin by asking you what was it like to be a Rago fellow during your nine months in that position?
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: We're just shy of nine months.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Actually, they hired you before the fellowship ended, but I understand they treat you as regular staff once you arrive there to be a fellow.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was wonderful, I mean completely life-changing.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: I loved the journal as a reader for years but being able to be there in person, you know, internally, to meet the writers and the editors who I had admired for so many years and whose writing had influenced me, to be able to actually get to know them in person and learn from them, was incredible.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: And I was really blessed that they, you know, immediately trusted me to do challenging tasks.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: That just helped me grow, everything from editing to working on writing assignments and sitting in on editorial board meetings, hearing just the strategy and the strategy and the debate and the questions, the funny jokes.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: I mean it was just amazing being able to sit in in person on all of that.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: I really think it's the best fellowship in journalism out there and I'm so thankful you guys chose me for it.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: It wasn't a hard decision, even though we had a lot of applicants and some really strong finalists.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: You stood out.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Just a few weeks into your fellowship, you published a piece, a byline piece.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: That must have been a thrill.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: What was that like to have a piece published, and could you talk about that piece on Afghanistan?
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was so exciting, obviously, just to pick up a copy of the Wall Street Journal that I've been reading for years and to see my name in it, but it was also just exciting to be able to tell a story about something that I thought was so important, about the Biden administration's withdrawal from Afghanistan and the consequences that that has had for so many families.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I was able to interview military members who were affected, as well as people who had been Afghan allies working with the US both those who had been evacuated and now had sort of a immigration status in limbo but then also had the opportunity to interview someone there who was still trapped and obviously didn't use his name to protect him, but who is continuing to suffer the consequences of that decision.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: So it was both moving and interesting to be able to tell that story, but also just exciting to see my name in the journal and to be a part of this organization that I've been a huge fan of for so long.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: You've written now, of course, many other byline pieces and they really are wide ranging.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: You've written about political races in Texas, I think, in California.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: You've written about businesses Jewish businesses in Philadelphia being boycotted, about electric truck mandates in California.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: How do you go about kind of deciding?
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: Do you pitch the story to someone there when you come up with an idea and then you see if they say that's something to do, then you go out and do some reporting.
• 4:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been a combination of different ways that stories have come about.
• 4:39
  Speaker 2: In some cases an idea has come to me and I've gone and brought it to Matthew Hennessy or James Toronto, who make decisions about whether or not it would be a good fit.
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: And in other cases they've reached out to me and said hey, can you do a piece on X, y or Z?
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: So in the case of the Texas race that I covered, for instance, paul Gigo and James Toronto wanted someone to cover that race and so they asked me if I would do so and bought a plane ticket the next day and flew out the day after that.
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: So it was a pretty quick turnaround but a wonderful adventure.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: I really enjoyed it.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: But in other instances an idea has come to me.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: So I wrote a piece, for instance this week, on the Western Wall and how each year, twice a year, in the spring and in the fall for Jewish holidays, a rabbi and his assistants remove notes from the Western Wall that people have left their prayer notes.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And the way that that came about was just, I had heard for years that this tradition took place and one day I just thought wait, do all those notes still fit there?
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: Like, where do they go?
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: They can't possibly all fit there, and so I just was curious, and so it sort of just chased a curiosity that led to a really interesting story.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: So it's definitely a variety of different ways that stories come about.
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it appeared today, the day we're recording this interview.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: It was great to see that in the paper this morning.
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: My first question, I think, when I read it, was did you go to Jerusalem to report on that one?
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: I assume you probably didn't, given the situation there right now.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: I didn't not for this one.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: I have been fortunate for many of the stories this year to be able to get out on the ground, but in this instance I was just able to meet virtually with the rabbi and his assistants.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: That brings up what I find very refreshing about the journal opinion editorial pages is it's not just opinion, it's the people who write their report.
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: They go out to cover the story and they talk to people and they're giving us new information when we read it.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Has that been your experience in writing?
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: You've really done a lot of reporting for these stories you've written.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: I think there's nothing like being an eyewitness, being able to get out on the ground.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: Just taking, for an example, the California races that I covered that are coming up in November, but I was there this summer.
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: What made it interesting for me was I interviewed a lot of political experts in DC et cetera, sort of with a bird's eye view of these races.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: But even though they had the historical context and could tell me the statistics, they really didn't have a flavor that they were able to give me of what the people on the ground are like, what really matters to them.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: And so, getting out on the ground and actually talking to a huge number of voters potential voters about what really matters to them, I got a totally different idea of what's really important on the ground there and also just a better sense of who the candidates are and what they're about.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, I think getting out on the ground is the best way to report.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: How would you describe yourself as a journalist?
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: You know I'm thinking a little bit of you were in journalism for a good year or more after you finished school and as you were going through school, you were doing journalism and then you became the Rago Fellow.
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: How would you describe yourself as a journalist kind of today versus kind of before you started in the Rago Fellowship?
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: Has it changed the way you go about doing things?
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: I think some things have changed and some things have carried over.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: I think what has carried over has been again just on the ground reporting, doing in-depth interviewing, understanding an issue in depth before writing about it.
• 8:00
  Speaker 2: I think that has carried over, but I think what's new, especially with the Rago Fellowship, is because the emphasis is so much on editing.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: That has made me a stronger writer, because as I'm working to improve the structure of other people's pieces outside contributors' pieces, I feel like it's actually improved my own writing and the way that I think about structure and themes when I'm going out to cover a story, as an example, covering one of the races.
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: Recently, I had all this information that I had collected and then I had to sort of synthesize it and think about well, what is the main theme here, what is the through line in the story, in a way that I think was more coherent and more structured perhaps than some of my previous reporting back in Oregon, where maybe the themes weren't always quite as coherent.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: Why don't you talk a little bit about your experience before coming to the journal in Oregon, because you did have interesting experience there covering the agricultural business and policy related to that.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Could you talk about that a little?
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, I loved it, I was so blessed to have that job.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: So the Capital Press is the name of the newspaper and it's based in Oregon, but it covers California, oregon, washington and Idaho and it's business news related to the food system, mainly agriculture, which sounds like a very niche topic initially, but it intersects with practically every area of life.
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: I mean it was international trade and labor and immigration and supply chain and policy and regulation.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: I mean so many different aspects of our world intersect with agriculture and so I was constantly learning, was constantly learning.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: What made that job particularly fun was that I drove a lot hundreds, sometimes thousands of miles, you know, all over the Western US and got to do everything from, you know, riding horseback with cattle ranchers to helping make wine with you know, winemakers and grape pickers, to riding along with truck drivers at the ports looking how, you know, food was shipped internationally.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: I think that was probably one of the most valuable reporting experiences of my life and also just prepared me for the journal as well, to better understand broader systems, you know, globally, but also just, I think, being able to tell human stories as well, about the people, the laborers, the business owners, etc.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: That policies affect for, cetera, that policies affect, for instance, that regulations affect.
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: These aren't just abstract, but they're people and their families and their businesses.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it was a wonderful experience.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: It is fascinating that whole area you covered that we just all take for granted that we'll have food on the table tonight.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: The grocery store will have food.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: I remember a documentary I saw where these container ships are coming into a port.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: The documentary I saw was on Rotterdam, how the crew is, you know, the container filled with bananas.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: They're adjusting the temperature slightly every day and so the ripeness of the bananas is perfect when it gets to Rotterdam and they're sent out to grocery stores.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's so elaborate.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: One of my favorite stories that I did sort of on that topic of how minute the details are is I.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: It was called the secret life of spinach.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: I followed a pallet of spinach all the way from the field to its final destination, so like started at the farm and watched it get harvested and then watched it get put on a truck and then followed it all the way through, you know, drove with the truck driver, went to the warehouse and, like you said, with the bananas I mean just the perfect temperature control and all the different steps all the way to the grocery store, all the way to the final consumer.
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: It's pretty mind-blowing.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I was going to ask you another question about your work in Oregon.
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: Oh, and in school, in journalism school, did that experience prepare you well for your work in journalism?
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: The University of Oregon obviously is more leftist and so I didn't necessarily always agree with the ideology that I was taught.
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: But in terms of just nuts and bolts, you know how to report well, how to interview.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: I also learned photojournalism and videography while I was there, which has proved useful.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: It was a really good program in terms of just the core hard skills that I've been able to apply, so I was very thankful to be able to do that.
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: My undergrad was in history, so that sort of prepared me more with sort of knowledge of the world.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: And you know, obviously it was helpful in the writing sphere, but more in the academic sense, so it was definitely helpful to be able to transition me to more newsy style writing.
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: I'm curious, sierra, whether you detect any kind of difference between working, as you did before, for a regional publication versus now writing for something that's national or even international.
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are big differences and similarities as well.
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: I think both are incredibly important.
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: It actually makes me sad to see the decline of local newspapers and regional newspapers across the US, and I understand part of why that happens.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Obviously it has everything to do with a combination of, you know, readership and people turning elsewhere for news and profits and consolidation and a lot of different factors that you know, some of which are inevitable.
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: But I think something about local news that's different than national news is you can really dig into what's happening in the state legislature or what's happening in a local city, council or community that otherwise might get overlooked by national newspapers simply because they have so much to cover.
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: I was at the Capitol Press.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: I was actually shocked by just the gravity of some of the regulations that were passed or things happening in communities that readers otherwise wouldn't have known about, that profoundly impacted their lives, their families, their businesses, and so I think there's a real service there.
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: But at the same time, again, local newspapers don't necessarily have the capital, the resources sometimes to cover some of the global and national really important topics that national newspapers cover.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: I mean, I've I loved both, I think in different ways, like covering again local news, things that were overlooked but that really impacted people's lives.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: But at the Wall Street Journal it's been, you know, covering.
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: We do cover regional stories as well and certainly do dig into state legislatures, but mostly covering like the top news stories of the day happening all over the world.
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: And I love that too.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: I think it's fascinating.
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: I think larger newspapers have the ability to maybe equip reporters with more resources to go even further and dig even further.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: But again, I think there's a value to both and I hope that both are able to continue thriving.
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: Speaking of regulations that impact people, you did write a piece for the Wall Street Journal about the electric truck mandate in California.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Why don't you say something about that?
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: Because that was an interesting story and with a great headline on it.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, thank you.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I absolutely loved doing that.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: It was fun.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: I like telling stories, as I've mentioned, where it's not just about the policy abstractly but how it actually affects people's lives.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: So for that story I rode along all day with a driver of an electric semi truck and just saw California's requirements for moving to electric semi trucks, how that affected him and the business that he was working for, and it was pretty surprising to see, you know just the hours that he had to sit and wait at a charging station, the fact that there weren't charging stations at some of the places he needed to go, just how many hours and how much more burden it added to his day and overall than the cost that was passed on to the business and then ultimately to the consumer.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: I think just being able to get there and see it in person made it very clear just how problematic this California policy was.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I rode in a Lyft driver the other day who had a Tesla picked me up at the airport and I said how do you like your Tesla?
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: He said oh, I love it, I love it.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: He said the only thing I don't like is I have to charge it when I'm still trying to get fares and pick up passengers, so I can't get through the whole day without charging it.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: And I think the headline on your piece was about the California mandate, that was, truckers charging overtime.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Right yeah, electric mandates.
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: Have truckers charging overtime?
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah Well, as I recall from a few years ago when we interviewed you for the fellowship, you had, at least for part of your education, been homeschooled, and I was impressed when you told me that you had really absorbed yourself in the writings of people like Milton Friedman and Tom Sowell, and I imagine that helped give you a good foundation for what you're doing in journalism.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, absolutely.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, that was actually a combination of my high school years.
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: I was homeschooled K through 12.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: So during those years I was reading a lot of books like that.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: But it was also audio books that I was listening to during my long drives when I was a Capitol Press reporter.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: So I'd be like driving you know seven hours from Western to Eastern Oregon listening to Milton Friedman or like a Paul Johnson history book or something like that.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: So it was definitely a time well spent, but I was in the car enough that I read quite a lot of books that way as well.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: What advice would you give to young journalists, those in college?
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: We've been working to develop and support campus newspapers.
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: We've got a network now we call the Student Journalism Association.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: We have over 400 college students who've joined this.
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: We did three training sessions this past year in Chicago, charlottesville and in New York.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: In fact Paul Gigault spoke at our program in New York trying to develop talent on campuses for careers in journalism and to give them the kind of support and encouragement so they want to pursue those careers that they don't graduate and then go to work on Wall Street but rather decide.
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: And the Rago Fellowship, of course, is a great way to make sure that students do go into journalism.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: But we're bringing some to Washington for summer long internships to get a taste of the profession.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: But if you were talking to a young person who's on campus maybe working for the school paper, what advice would you give to them if they're thinking about a career school?
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: paper.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: What advice would you give to them if they're thinking about a career?
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: I think definitely internships, fellowships, anything that can give you sort of real life experience in journalism is probably the number one thing that I'd recommend, just because whether you're doing a program that is not journalistic in nature or whether you're studying journalism, the pace of working in school essentially is very different than real life reporting.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: So like, for example, my master's program, I learned a lot of nuts and bolts of reporting.
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: It was very helpful, learned how to write better, etc.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: But the pace wasn't like cranking out daily news.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: When I actually went and did my internship that later turned into a job at the Capitol Press, I mean it was like daily news stories running out there and covering things, and so I think just that sort of experience actually getting out there and learning to adapt to the pace of journalism I think is probably the best advice I can give.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Just try to apply for as many internships as you can as a student.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: But I also really would recommend a lot of the training programs that are out there.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think everything from like, for example I'm forgetting the full name of it, it's SubU, it's essentially business editors and writers.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: It's an association that's been really great.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: I recommend that they have great trainings on everything from using data in journalism to doing investigations.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: The investigative reporters and editors program I mentioned again didn't necessarily agree with all of the ideology, but I learned how to place better public records requests and how to collect information that otherwise is hard to access.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: And so you know, or even just think in creative ways about the ways that, for example, government intersects with the private sector, where maybe you're trying to investigate something and trying to find those points of entry where you can get public information.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: So you know, I think that is very helpful.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: I also recommend, even like the Society for Professional Journalists has good trainings on things like if you're going out to cover a wildfire, like wildfire safety preparedness.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely wouldn't underrate those types of organizations, even if, again, like ideologically maybe they're not necessarily in alignment with the average conservative.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: I think that they do have some useful tips and tools to offer.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I imagine in reference to that kind of pace you had at the Capitol Press where you're cranking out stories all the time.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: Where you are now, it's a little bit different.
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I guess every day you might be under a deadline to edit pieces that contributors are submitting in, while also working on a piece of your own that takes maybe a few weeks of reporting and writing.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: So is that kind of a balancing where some things you are working on are like daily deadlines have to be met so it's going to get ready for the paper tomorrow and other things.
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: You have a little more longer lead time to develop.
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, definitely, and it can be hard to predict because we're trying to work ahead as much as possible.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: So like, for example, right before this call, I just edited a piece for Tuesday that is fairly static in terms of like it could run Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday.
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: It doesn't need to be run immediately, but it's quite possible that I'll log into my email right after this and there will be some kind of breaking news and something that needs to be edited in a couple of hours today to run into tomorrow's paper, like that happens regularly.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: So you know it's a little bit of hurry up and wait.
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: Sometimes you're working ahead and the pace is fairly comfortable, and other times, you know it's like Trump was almost shot or Biden just dropped out of the race or whatnot, and it's okay, here we go, let's get this done quickly.
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: And then, in terms of you know, the pace of writing, that also definitely depends.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Like this piece I wrote about the Western Wall this week.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Actually, I started reporting back in April and was originally going to run it for the Jewish holiday in April and then it ended up running in the fall instead.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: So it's been you know months, whereas the piece on California's races I reported on I think it was a Tuesday wrote it on a Wednesday and then it ran on a Thursday and so that was a quick turnaround, so it really depends on the situation.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: Well, it's really great to know that you and two other Rega fellows are there full-time now and we have two new fellows working there now.
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: We also one thing I did mention in my introduction is we have the Robert Novak Journalism Fellowship Program, which we provide fellowships to young journalists who have writing projects they want to pursue and we'll give them a grant that will help cover their time and their expense doing that.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: And three of our previous Novak fellows now work as colleagues of yours at the journal Kyle Peterson, kate O'Dell and Mene Ukaburuo.
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: So we're great to have that connection to you and we'll be announcing a new class of fellows at our November 12th dinner in New York seven new Novak fellows plus the two Rago fellows.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: So I really think this is a way to encourage talented young people like yourself to go into journalism and can transform the media in the future.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And they won't all end up at the Wall Street Journal.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: I think that's great.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Kareem Hajar, who was a Novak Fellow, of course, is working at the Boston Globe.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: And doing an amazing job yeah.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, appearing on Fox Business regularly and it's a great program and we're pleased that you're part of it, sierra, and thank you for joining me today on the Liberty and Leadership Podcast.
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure to talk with you.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: I couldn't be more grateful for TFAS.
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: It's changed my life in the best possible way.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: So thank you for everything and thank you for having me today.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: Thanks.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Liberty and Leadership Podcast.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: If you have a comment or question, please drop us an email at podcast at tfasorg, and be sure to subscribe to the show.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Thank you.