Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #205 Have You Done Your Homework?

Transcript

#205 Have You Done Your Homework? · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers. Now.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: So here's the thing. If you don't understand what happened
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: in class, to come home and have to try to
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  Speaker 2: work it out without the teacher, that can be overwhelming.
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  Speaker 1: And now he is the stars of our show, My
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  Speaker 1: mum and dad.
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  Speaker 2: Hello, this is a very nervous doctor Justin Coulson, the
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  Speaker 2: author of six books about raising happy families.
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  Speaker 3: Why are you nervous?
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  Speaker 2: Just because I know what we're talking about today? And
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  Speaker 2: this is one of those topics that is provocative and
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  Speaker 2: that gets people on edge. I'm here with my wife
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  Speaker 2: and co host this is Happy Families, Kylie, and today.
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  Speaker 3: We're talking about homework.
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  Speaker 2: Homework that I despise, homework that I think children just
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  Speaker 2: shouldn't be doing homework that I have very strong opinions about,
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  Speaker 2: asking me what I really think?
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  Speaker 3: You do have very strong opinions about this, And we
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  Speaker 3: did for a.
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  Speaker 2: Little bit from time to time with this, had our
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  Speaker 2: moments on this, haven't we?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So can you just tell me what is the
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  Speaker 3: theory behind giving our kids homework? I mean literally, from
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  Speaker 3: the time our kids hit prep they're coming home with
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  Speaker 3: stuff that they have to achieve at home.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, So what's the ideal behind it?
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  Speaker 2: Well, this is really interesting because homework has just always
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  Speaker 2: been a thing. Well, one day it became a thing
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  Speaker 2: at least, and that's kind of what we've always done since.
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  Speaker 2: And nobody really researched whether the homework was helpful or
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  Speaker 2: not for decades and decades after it started. But the
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  Speaker 2: theory is, there's work that you've got to get done,
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  Speaker 2: and we want to make sure that we're consolidating learning.
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  Speaker 2: So we're going to send it home so the kids
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  Speaker 2: can do an extra shift, do some overtime when you
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  Speaker 2: get home. Kids, we're not going to pay you for it,
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  Speaker 2: but let's get you to do some overtime. And the
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  Speaker 2: idea is, let's consolidate the learning. Let's make sure that
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  Speaker 2: you're not falling behind in class. It's that kind of thing,
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  Speaker 2: you know.
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  Speaker 3: I grew up watching a little house on the prairie
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  Speaker 3: and they used to go to school every day. They
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  Speaker 3: didn't go home with homework.
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  Speaker 2: No, in the olden days they didn't. And then some
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  Speaker 2: one obviously had the idea that sometimes if you don't
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  Speaker 2: finish your work at school, you need to take it
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  Speaker 2: home and finish it. And someone else had an idea
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  Speaker 2: that we need to make sure that you don't forget
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  Speaker 2: the stuff that we taught you today, so when you
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  Speaker 2: go home, you need to practice it. Repetition is the
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  Speaker 2: mother of all learning, which is true. It's just that
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  Speaker 2: there's no really great evidence that we should be taking
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  Speaker 2: at home and repeating it at home when we can
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  Speaker 2: repeat it at school the next day.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, So you know how I feel about the researchy stuff.
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  Speaker 3: But you know, just give me a little bit of insight.
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  Speaker 3: What does the research actually tell us about homework and
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  Speaker 3: our kids well being?
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  Speaker 2: How do you feel about the researching stuff?
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  Speaker 3: Ah, just tell me the real life stuff.
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  Speaker 2: Science is the best way for us to know whether
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  Speaker 2: stuff is working or not. There's so many things that
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  Speaker 2: as a result of science, we know that we otherwise
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  Speaker 2: wouldn't all these old wives tales that have been disproven
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  Speaker 2: because good science says, you know, if you change this,
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  Speaker 2: you actually discover whether or not it's really having an
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  Speaker 2: impact on stuff. So I don't think we can go
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  Speaker 2: poop pooing.
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  Speaker 3: I'm not poopying science. I just have to listen to
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  Speaker 3: it every day, Okay, so you're tired of my Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: I am tired of your tirades. But there is some
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  Speaker 3: important stuff and I do learn lots.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, So when we look at the science around homework,
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  Speaker 2: there is well, I don't know how to say it politely,
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  Speaker 2: there is not really any strong evidence from really or
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  Speaker 2: there's no strong evidence from decades of research that homework
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  Speaker 2: on average is good for our kids. In fact, most
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  Speaker 2: of the research shows that it has either a neutral
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  Speaker 2: or a negative effect. Now I say not really, because
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  Speaker 2: it's really hard to research this and to do it well.
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  Speaker 2: And one of the main reasons is because there's all
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  Speaker 2: different kinds of homework, and so for me, it's as
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  Speaker 2: much about whether homework is given or not as what
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  Speaker 2: kind of homework is given. You see, some activities are
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  Speaker 2: going to be really really good for our children's learning
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  Speaker 2: and for reinforcement and for consolidating, and some activities are
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  Speaker 2: just a waste of time. So on average, the side
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  Speaker 2: iientific research shows and has done now for about thirty years,
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  Speaker 2: maybe thirty five years, that homework. Again, I'm saying on average. Oh,
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  Speaker 2: and I've got to say another really important thing here.
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  Speaker 2: Homework on average for children up to around the age
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  Speaker 2: of twelve thirteen, fourteen. So essentially what I say is
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  Speaker 2: primary school has zero benefit, literally zero benefit for the
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  Speaker 2: average kid getting the average amount of homework and doing
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  Speaker 2: the average sort of stuff for homework. It's a waste
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  Speaker 2: of time. There's no evidence to support it. Once the
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  Speaker 2: kids are in high school, there is some evidence that
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  Speaker 2: up to an hour in the early years and then
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  Speaker 2: up to two hours in their later high school years
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  Speaker 2: does have an It gives them advantage academically, so it's
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  Speaker 2: worth doing it once they're in high school. But for
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  Speaker 2: primary school kids, just stop.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, So can you step me through what it is
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  Speaker 3: that you actually are really disgruntled about when it comes
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  Speaker 3: to homework. We're talking general terms here, Yeah, what the
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  Speaker 3: average school is working with in homework parameters? What is
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  Speaker 3: it that really kind of gets under your skin?
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  Speaker 2: Okay? So, first of all, the average school has a
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  Speaker 2: directive that's been given by the education department in their state,
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  Speaker 2: and I think every state in Australia and every territory
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  Speaker 2: in Australia has this that children have to have homework.
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  Speaker 2: A couple of years ago, Melbourne ran Victoria ran a
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  Speaker 2: parliamentary inquiry into homework and they didn't find any evidence
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  Speaker 2: to support the use of homework, at least in primary school.
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  Speaker 2: They're still doing it, by the way, they're still giving
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  Speaker 2: homework out. But the Parliamentary Inquiry couldn't even justify the
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  Speaker 2: use of homework with the Education Department say no, no,
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  Speaker 2: we've got to keep on making sure that kids are
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  Speaker 2: doing homework. There's a handful of rebel principles around Australia
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  Speaker 2: that have said we're actually going to follow the evidence
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  Speaker 2: and the kids don't have to do it and guess
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  Speaker 2: what the kids are doing. Fine, students doing all right.
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  Speaker 2: But if I was to list my grievances with homework,
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  Speaker 2: what I'll do, because I'm going to talk for way
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  Speaker 2: too long and get two carried away. I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: share the first couple, then we'll take a quick break
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  Speaker 2: and I'll share the rest of them and talk about
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  Speaker 2: what we should do as a result. So here we go.
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  Speaker 2: Number one, there's just no evidence to support it, especially
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  Speaker 2: in those primary school years, full stop, end of story.
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  Speaker 2: If we're going to be science driven, we need actually
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  Speaker 2: look at what the science says, and the science says
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  Speaker 2: it's pointless for kids who are in primary school period.
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  Speaker 3: So what about the parent who's got a child who's
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  Speaker 3: really struggling with their mass, for instance, and they decide
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  Speaker 3: to hire a tutor to come and have tuttering.
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  Speaker 2: There's a different process than homework. Okay, So if I'm
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  Speaker 2: going to put my children into a tutoring class, that
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  Speaker 2: means that they're going to be doing deliberate practice with
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  Speaker 2: a qualified trainer or teacher who is going to guide
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  Speaker 2: them and improve them. That's kind of like saying i
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  Speaker 2: want my children to learn the piano, but I'm never
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  Speaker 2: going to ask them to do any practice. Okay, we
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  Speaker 2: need them to have a piano teacher so that teacher
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  Speaker 2: can help them to get better. So I've got a
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  Speaker 2: child who is falling behind. I decided to put them
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  Speaker 2: in tutoring. That's a deliberate form of practice and teaching
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  Speaker 2: with a qualified instructor that's going to help them. That's
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  Speaker 2: totally different to here's some homework, go home, fill in
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  Speaker 2: the homework matrix, you know, fill in the three of
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  Speaker 2: the boxes in our grid, make sure you finish this worksheet.
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  Speaker 2: Totally different kind of homework. Let's talk about the other
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  Speaker 2: reasons that I'm not a out of homework. In just a.
• 7:01
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  Speaker 3: It's the Happy Famili's podcast, the podcast for the time
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: poor parent who just wants answers now, And today we're
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  Speaker 3: talking about a really hot button topic.
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  Speaker 2: Homework and I'm not sounding happy.
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  Speaker 3: You're not happy. So we've already discussed that there is
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  Speaker 3: no research to support children under the age of twelve, thirteen,
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  Speaker 3: even up to fourteen, actually getting any significant benefits out
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  Speaker 3: of doing homework.
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  Speaker 2: Any academic benefit at all. In fact, it's neutral, if
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  Speaker 2: not negative, on average. Now I've got a handful of
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  Speaker 2: other reasons that I'm anti homework. I'm going to run
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  Speaker 2: through them pretty quickly.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Number one, it adds to my workload as a parent, definitely.
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  Speaker 2: I've got stuff going on.
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  Speaker 3: And I know that when you know, I sit around
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  Speaker 3: with mums having a coffee, they feel really really stretched
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  Speaker 3: by this.
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  Speaker 2: Often because I talked to some mums and dads who
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  Speaker 2: will do a couple of hours of homework with their
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  Speaker 2: children after school and after work and the kids are
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  Speaker 2: like eight years old. Wow. And you know else, The
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  Speaker 2: reason it takes them two hours is because the parents
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  Speaker 2: don't know how to do that.
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  Speaker 3: I think that's why you really don't like homework how
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  Speaker 3: to do it.
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  Speaker 2: Every time my kids come home with a c I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: oh gosh, I don't know how I ever got a PhD.
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  Speaker 2: It's really stressful for a lot of kids like now,
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  Speaker 2: I'm fine with children being uncomfortable, and I'm absolutely for
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  Speaker 2: children doing things that are hard and pushing themselves. So
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  Speaker 2: here's the thing. If you don't understand what happened in class,
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  Speaker 2: to come home and have to try to work it
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  Speaker 2: out without the teacher, that can be overwhelming for the
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  Speaker 2: majority of children. And it's not what education is meant
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  Speaker 2: to be about.
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  Speaker 3: Well, especially when mum and dad try to teach you
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  Speaker 3: the archaic way speak.
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  Speaker 2: It was different from the eighties, back in the nineties,
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  Speaker 2: whatever it was when we were kids. I mean I
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  Speaker 2: was a product of early nineteen eighties primary schooling. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: and they do everything differently today than how they did
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  Speaker 2: it when I was a kid. So it's not fair
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  Speaker 2: for the children. It's also really hard on the parents.
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  Speaker 2: But the other thing is, and we've watched this with
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  Speaker 2: some of our kids, once they have got it figured
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  Speaker 2: out in class, coming home and repeating it, it's just boring.
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  Speaker 2: Like they sit there and they're so bored, and it
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  Speaker 2: really extinguishes that flame of curiosity when you're just doing
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  Speaker 2: boring stuff. Next thing, it adds to teachers loads. I
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  Speaker 2: mean I work in and around schools all the time now,
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  Speaker 2: and I am astounded at how hard teachers work compared
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  Speaker 2: to what they were doing back in the eighties. Not
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  Speaker 2: that I want to belittle what teachers did back then,
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  Speaker 2: but as a comparison, the expectation on teachers today is
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  Speaker 2: extraordinary compared to back then. And the last thing that
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  Speaker 2: they need to be worried about is whether or not
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  Speaker 2: homework got done or whether the dog ate it.
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  Speaker 3: And I know that from experience. When we've kind of,
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  Speaker 3: you know, shared our views on homework and got a
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  Speaker 3: pardon for each of our children, you can see the
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  Speaker 3: relief in their face as one less child they've got
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  Speaker 3: to worry about.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think the last couple of reasons that
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  Speaker 2: I'm anti homework creates conflict at home, you know, because
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  Speaker 2: a child doesn't want to do it because they are
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  Speaker 2: feeling unmotivated or they are bored, or they're struggling, and
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  Speaker 2: then the parents are like, you've got to do your homework,
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  Speaker 2: and next thing, you know that there's this big conflict
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  Speaker 2: in the kitchen over whether or not the homework's going
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  Speaker 2: to get done. One of my biggest issues though, is
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  Speaker 2: that homework leaves less time for the important stuff.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that That's where I really struggle with
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  Speaker 3: homework policy is just when my kids come home, I
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  Speaker 3: try so hard to be available to them, and yet
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  Speaker 3: I'm going to spend half my afternoon staring at paperwork.
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  Speaker 2: Well not at our house, thank you very much, missus
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  Speaker 2: Happy families. But let me just add something on this though.
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  Speaker 2: If parents are going to let their kids just sit
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  Speaker 2: in front of video games and consume screens and do nothing,
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  Speaker 2: then I probably would rather that they were doing homework.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, that's what I would say about that, because
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  Speaker 2: I want children to be either having some good quality
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  Speaker 2: downtime or using their brains, you know, being efficient, learning, growing, developing,
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  Speaker 2: doing something like that. That's what childhood is kind of for.
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  Speaker 2: But I don't think either of them are really good alternatives.
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  Speaker 2: I'd rather than be doing their art or their music,
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  Speaker 2: or their drama, or their sport or stands in the backyard, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: going for a swim, jumping on the trampoline, actually connecting
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  Speaker 2: with their family, riding the bike down the street to
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  Speaker 2: catch up with a friend. Those are the kinds of
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  Speaker 2: things that I want to see kids doing in the afternoon.
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  Speaker 2: Going to the grocery store with Mum to buy the
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  Speaker 2: groceries for tonight. That's what I think is far more valuable.
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  Speaker 2: That's the important stuff that they could be doing, and
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  Speaker 2: sometimes homework gets in the way of that. And lastly,
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  Speaker 2: it's just so generally uninspiring, like goly who wants to
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  Speaker 2: do it? So that's why I'm against it.
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  Speaker 3: That's a really great list, and it's given me some
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  Speaker 3: food for thought, and I generally agree with everything that
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  Speaker 3: you're saying. In my experience, most of the homework that's
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  Speaker 3: coming home with our children takes them about ten or
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  Speaker 3: fifteen minutes, and I just I don't see the point
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  Speaker 3: of rocking the boat if it's really not adding anngs
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  Speaker 3: to the overall running of my house.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I guess I've kind of softened my attitude
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  Speaker 2: even though I've gone on this a big rant today,
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  Speaker 2: because of two things. First of all, most of the time,
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  Speaker 2: our kids have been happy to do it, even though
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  Speaker 2: I'm telling them not to. They they're like that it's
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  Speaker 2: just easier if I do it. They actually sit down
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  Speaker 2: and red.
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  Speaker 3: And they do. They feel ostracized, whether it be by
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  Speaker 3: their peers or their teachers at times when even though
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  Speaker 3: they have been given that pardon to not do it,
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  Speaker 3: and so yeah, I just I feel like it's really
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  Speaker 3: important that, you know, we kind of run this through
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  Speaker 3: our own filters and work out what's going to work
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  Speaker 3: best for us and our children.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, In terms of rocking the boat, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I think that if there's no evidence for something and
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  Speaker 2: it's causing distress, challenge, and difficulty in the family, it's
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  Speaker 2: worth rocking the boat.
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  Speaker 3: It's worth So maybe if it was causing distress, then
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  Speaker 3: I would one hundred percent rock the boat. But in
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: most cases our children have actually not been too worried
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: whether they do it or not.
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  Speaker 2: Now I need to I need to highlight a couple
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  Speaker 2: of things. First of all, the confession, I've definitely softened
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  Speaker 2: my stance. The reason is not only because some kids
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  Speaker 2: just like doing homework, but also we're talking about averages, right,
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  Speaker 2: So on average it doesn't help. On average, it's actually
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: neutral or even harmful. But not every child is average,
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  Speaker 2: which means that in some cases homework might actually be helpful.
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  Speaker 2: And I do say this tentatively because I think any
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  Speaker 2: difference is a probably going to be very, very small,
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  Speaker 2: and they might come at substantial costs. But you know,
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  Speaker 2: sometimes homework can help there are a couple of kinds
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  Speaker 2: of homework that I really do encourage.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, I would love you to share that because they,
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  Speaker 3: one hundred percent are things that we support in our
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  Speaker 3: home and have made a significant difference in our children's education.
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  Speaker 2: Number one Reading. You cannot read to your kids enough.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: You cannot get them to read to you enough. Reading, reading, reading.
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  Speaker 2: Of all of the things that we've talked about today,
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  Speaker 2: homework has no evidence to support it in primary school,
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: but reading. I don't see reading as homework. I see
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  Speaker 2: reading as just what you do. Because humans read, We
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  Speaker 2: know how to read, and reading is good for our learning,
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: and we love to read. We don't do homework. We
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: don't feel in the reading wheel and say our read
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  Speaker 2: for twenty minutes. We just read. And the research shows
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: that the more our kids read, the better they're likely
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: to do academically. That's the typical outcome. Reading is so
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: strongly associated with great academic outcomes, and with curiosity, with learning,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: with openness and new experiences, with conscientiousness. This is the
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: number one thing that I would encourage parents to do.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: And we love reading with our kids. It's one of
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: the highlights of our days to just kind of cuddle
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: up at the end of the night and read a book.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Second thing, projects. If the kids are interested in something,
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: then turn on the computer and let them learn, let
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: them do projects, let them create, let them connect, let
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: them develop their understanding of stuff. There's loads, again, loads
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: of research that shows that when children are self directed
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: and autonomous in their learning, and they're learning about stuff
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: that they actually care about, they're going to do better.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: And the third thing, I just reckon, do stuff together.
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: And when you're doing stuff, count or spell or read,
• 15:51
  Speaker 2: give the children an opportunity to run down the supermarket
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: aisle and do something. You know, do jobs and chores
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: for you, clean up around the house, be involved in
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: family life. I don't see that as homework though. I
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: see that as just living a whole and fulfilling childhood.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: So that's my homework spill.
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: So take home message for today is there is no
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: evidence that homework.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Helps in primary school.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: In primary school, yes, but one thing that does definitely
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: make a huge difference to your children all round is reading, YEP,
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: reading and self directed learning. And if you can tap
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: into those areas, your child is just going to thrive.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and hopefully if you decide that you want to
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: talk to your your children's teachers about it, you won't
• 16:35
  Speaker 2: be rocking the boat too much. I think it's a
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: worthwhile conversation because it's not great for our kids. If
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: your kids are happy doing their homework, just leave them be.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: We really hope that you're happy listen to the podcast.
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: If you are, we'd love your five star ratings and
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: reviews and Apple podcasts. Please let people know what you
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: think of the podcast so other people can make their
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: families happier and I'm hopefully stress free in the afternoons
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: as well. We appreciate Justin rule On from Bridge for
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: producing the podcast, and our executive producer is Craig Bruce.
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: If you would like more information about how to make
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: your family happier, you can find out all about Happy
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Families memberships at our website happyfamilies dot com dot au.