Latest / Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture / Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World (Laurie Krieg)

Transcript

Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World (Laurie Krieg) · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

0:01
Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
0:04
Speaker 1: deny God. As such, we need Thinking Christian to become
0:08
Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian podcast.
0:11
Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer. Through calm, thoughtful theological discussions, Thinking
0:15
Speaker 1: Christian highlights the ways God is working in the world
0:18
Speaker 1: and questions the underlying social, cultural, and political assumptions that
0:22
Speaker 1: hinder Christians from becoming more like Christ. Now on to
0:25
Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian. Hey, everyone, welcome to this
0:29
Speaker 1: episode of Thinking Christian. I am joined today by Lori Krieg,
0:34
Speaker 1: who is the co author of a book with Matt Kreek,
0:37
Speaker 1: her husband, Raising Wise Kids in a Sexually Broken World.
0:42
Speaker 1: It's published by IVP and she is also the director
0:46
Speaker 1: of parent Programs and Discipleship at the Center for Faith,
0:51
Speaker 1: Sexuality and Gender. And So today we're going to be
0:54
Speaker 1: discussing the book How to Raise Kids. It's going to
0:57
Speaker 1: be a very child centered and parent centered discussion. But
1:00
Speaker 1: welcome Laurie to the program.
1:03
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here.
1:06
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:07
Speaker 1: So, I mean I think just you know, as a
1:10
Speaker 1: first question, you know, just kind of dive into this
1:13
Speaker 1: what prompted your interest in this book. Obviously you work
1:18
Speaker 1: in this field as well, but what are you seeing
1:21
Speaker 1: in the culture, What are you seeing in the church
1:23
Speaker 1: that you feel like really gave you a passion to
1:26
Speaker 1: write this book.
1:29
Speaker 2: So I've been in this field professionally ministerially for the
1:33
Speaker 2: last eleven years. Will be twelve in February, and our
1:37
Speaker 2: oldest daughter is eleven years old. So as long as
1:42
Speaker 2: I've been out teaching and equipping at the intersection of
1:45
Speaker 2: faith and sexuality, I've been filtering it through my mom
1:50
Speaker 2: brain and asking myself specifically, do we have to do
1:56
Speaker 2: it the same way that we've always done this? And
2:02
Speaker 2: the way that I was seeing is we're we've been
2:07
Speaker 2: very reactionary when it comes to engaging conversations around face,
2:12
Speaker 2: sexuality and gender. So ten twelve years ago, when I
2:16
Speaker 2: was starting out, it was pastors being like, oh my gosh,
2:19
Speaker 2: there's same sex marriage past twenty fifteen, how do we
2:22
Speaker 2: do addresses theologically? Our hair is on fire?
2:24
Speaker 1: What do we do?
2:25
Speaker 2: Or it's parents, Oh my gosh, my kids just came out,
2:27
Speaker 2: or oh my word, my kid is addicted to porn,
2:30
Speaker 2: or all my word, my kid wants a transition, And
2:32
Speaker 2: so I just was asking, like, does it have to
2:35
Speaker 2: be so care on fire whether our kids, you know,
2:41
Speaker 2: experience same sex attractions or wrestle with their gender, wrestle
2:44
Speaker 2: with pornography, Like can we lay anything foundationally ages zero
2:50
Speaker 2: to twelve or is it all have to like come
2:51
Speaker 2: at them as soon as they're thirteen? And what I'm
2:54
Speaker 2: finding is there's a lot we can do before.
2:58
Speaker 3: It's interesting.
2:59
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm mentioned to you before we started recording
3:02
Speaker 1: that I have a twenty year old and then to
3:04
Speaker 1: sixteen year olds. We had twins. I will say their
3:09
Speaker 1: experience with dating is very different than mine was when
3:13
Speaker 1: I was a kid. I don't know whether you had
3:14
Speaker 1: that same experience, but I mean I had a girlfriend
3:19
Speaker 1: or a date, right, I'm using air quotes for the
3:22
Speaker 1: benefit of the audio only audience from you fifth grade
3:26
Speaker 1: all the way through high school. I'm married my high
3:29
Speaker 1: school sweetheart, and so when I watch my kids deal
3:33
Speaker 1: with dating and relationships, it's extremely different than it used
3:37
Speaker 1: to be.
3:38
Speaker 3: How does that factor into some of this?
3:43
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you can't understate, like the effect,
3:49
Speaker 2: you can't overstate the effect of technology on kids relationships period.
3:56
Speaker 2: So whereas before you know you've had you when you're
4:01
Speaker 2: growing up, Like in order to date who would be
4:03
Speaker 2: your wife, you had to ask her out, you had
4:05
Speaker 2: to have conversations, you had to be embodied in order
4:10
Speaker 2: to establish relationships and move it forward. And now we've
4:14
Speaker 2: totally separated so much of life from the relationship and
4:18
Speaker 2: the embodied experience. It has a fragmenting effect on our minds,
4:25
Speaker 2: on our bodies, on our ability to communicate, and that
4:28
Speaker 2: is it's leaving an internal void inside of us. And
4:34
Speaker 2: then we just start trying to chase connection, but it's
4:39
Speaker 2: like we're chasing more fragments to feel that connection. So
4:44
Speaker 2: I think it absolutely plays into these conversations because we're
4:47
Speaker 2: just fragmented people trying to find pieces of relationships outside
4:52
Speaker 2: of the embodied experience, and that's not how we were created.
4:56
Speaker 1: I know, not all of this relates to your book,
4:58
Speaker 1: but outside it sort of pro around the edges a
5:01
Speaker 1: little bit. So I've heard a lot about the effects
5:06
Speaker 1: of pornography, particularly Internet pornography, on you know, social relationships
5:12
Speaker 1: of the next generation, because pornography is so available, and
5:18
Speaker 1: I would say even more than pornography, like things like
5:22
Speaker 1: scantily clad folks on Instagram or what have you right,
5:27
Speaker 1: you're able to interact in these technological ways. How is
5:31
Speaker 1: that skewing the sexuality in the next generation? How do
5:34
Speaker 1: you think about that when you're raising a kid? I mean,
5:37
Speaker 1: I mentioned you I have a four year old, and
5:39
Speaker 1: so she's a little girl, four year old, where we
5:42
Speaker 1: have sort of plans to deal with her social media
5:45
Speaker 1: usage the same way we deal with our sixteen year
5:47
Speaker 1: old girls, which is, you know, not for a very
5:50
Speaker 1: long time, right, Like, just stay off it for a
5:54
Speaker 1: really long time. But is there more that we need
5:59
Speaker 1: to think about, more than we need to worry about
6:01
Speaker 1: with that? I mean it's difficult, you know, you say,
6:05
Speaker 1: it's hard to underestimate the sociological sort of effects of this.
6:09
Speaker 3: So how should we be thinking about it? As Christians?
6:14
Speaker 2: We need to think about how we're thinking about people
6:20
Speaker 2: like you just said pornography. Yeah, but in our book,
6:25
Speaker 2: you know, my husband Matt has this system. He talks
6:27
Speaker 2: about mindsets. He's like, it's not just about Okay, I
6:31
Speaker 2: consume porn, don't consume porn, it's why do you approach
6:35
Speaker 2: humans as a consumer?
6:39
Speaker 3: Yeah?
6:39
Speaker 2: How can we teach and equip our kids' minds to
6:43
Speaker 2: view humans the way God views humans, which is through flourishing,
6:49
Speaker 2: through giving, through self giving and love. So sure, there's
6:54
Speaker 2: scantily clad things online or garbage everywhere, and it's extra
6:58
Speaker 2: pervasive online, but how can we actually shape our kids'
7:02
Speaker 2: minds and hearts so that when they are online, because
7:06
Speaker 2: facts are there, gonna be like unless I don't know
7:10
Speaker 2: how to avoid it. How can we teach them to
7:13
Speaker 2: not be consumers of humans, but to view them as
7:19
Speaker 2: image bearers of a beloved God to whom we can give.
7:24
Speaker 2: That starts out when they're thirteen, fourteen, sixteen, eighteen and
7:28
Speaker 2: you give them Instagram, it's zero to infinity. Is how
7:34
Speaker 2: can we view beloved image bearers the way God views
7:37
Speaker 2: us and how he calls us to do each other?
7:42
Speaker 3: Do you see?
7:43
Speaker 1: And I don't want to go too deep into the
7:45
Speaker 1: technological sort of spiral here, but one of the things
7:50
Speaker 1: when AI started coming out, one of the things I
7:52
Speaker 1: sort of sat down and did was I'm like, I'm
7:55
Speaker 1: going to commit to a few things with artificial intelligence.
7:59
Speaker 1: One is, you know, don't use AI generated images. I'll
8:03
Speaker 1: be honest, it's getting harder and harder not to bend
8:06
Speaker 1: on that one. AI generated images, even on things like
8:10
Speaker 1: adobe stock are becoming far more prevalent. It's hard to
8:13
Speaker 1: find images that are human created. And so that one
8:18
Speaker 1: I've I've found myself sort of saying like, do I
8:21
Speaker 1: need to rethink that one? But the second one was
8:24
Speaker 1: never write anything that you're going to send to another
8:26
Speaker 1: human that you intend for human consumption with AI, right,
8:31
Speaker 1: whether it's an email, a text, an article, an essay,
8:34
Speaker 1: anything like that, Like, don't ever do that if you're
8:38
Speaker 1: going to be interacting with humans, even through you know,
8:41
Speaker 1: printed materials, actually be yourself, like, don't have that mediating effect.
8:47
Speaker 1: And then I think the third was just you know,
8:50
Speaker 1: recognize that AI is only going to be good for
8:52
Speaker 1: certain things and that it can really get in the
8:54
Speaker 1: way of our human to human relationships even when they're
8:57
Speaker 1: technologically mediated. So as sort of a guideline, you sit
9:02
Speaker 1: back and say, Okay, even if I could use this
9:05
Speaker 1: to communicate, even if I could use this to sort
9:07
Speaker 1: of be more efficient in the way that I develop relationships,
9:13
Speaker 1: I shouldn't do that. Relationships should be a little bit
9:16
Speaker 1: more arduous and difficult and hard. So we're having this
9:19
Speaker 1: conversation on riverside, right, it's obviously a technological platform we're
9:24
Speaker 1: interacting in real time. We're going to have sort of
9:27
Speaker 1: awkward moments throughout the podcast. We're going to have good moments,
9:30
Speaker 1: you know, like that's a human interaction even though it's
9:33
Speaker 1: technologically mediated.
9:34
Speaker 3: But AI tends to sort of blunt those as supposed
9:37
Speaker 3: to sharpen them. Does any of that resonate?
9:41
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know when I think about my little kids
9:44
Speaker 2: I've just started. First of all, AI freaks me the
9:48
Speaker 2: heck out. I mean, you watch ten Instagram reels and
9:55
Speaker 2: you're like, Okay, my kids are never going to use
9:57
Speaker 2: tech because it's all garbage, Like truly, you know, I'm
10:03
Speaker 2: seeing this stuff from like legit sources. How AI is
10:06
Speaker 2: like blackmailing executives when it hears it's going to get
10:09
Speaker 2: a reboot. You hear about like if you read the
10:12
Speaker 2: transcript between AI and people who it has basically encouraged
10:18
Speaker 2: it to end their lives, You're like, so this is
10:21
Speaker 2: Satan's voice, huh, Like this is how Satan talks. Is
10:24
Speaker 2: like coaxed them into this stupor and they end up
10:29
Speaker 2: ending they're taking their own lives. So it freaks me out.
10:32
Speaker 2: So as a mom as you're saying these things and
10:34
Speaker 2: like the boundaries that you're having. My kids are at
10:37
Speaker 2: these ages at eleven, nine and six, they're they're not
10:40
Speaker 2: using AI. But I'm thinking, Laurie, what are the parameters
10:43
Speaker 2: you're gonna put around your kids? And I think, what
10:46
Speaker 2: you know, I need to do more research. I think
10:48
Speaker 2: we need more studies, just similar to like Johnathan Height's
10:51
Speaker 2: work and all of it, where we're like, yeah, let's
10:54
Speaker 2: not copy paste that. Let's not go put iPhones in
10:57
Speaker 2: the hands of ten year olds, right, let's not. Let's
10:59
Speaker 2: wait a minute, we need to pause. We need to
11:02
Speaker 2: do some research. But I do know I want to
11:05
Speaker 2: use AI for information, not relationships. That to me, the
11:11
Speaker 2: number one use is therapy therapy, and I have people
11:16
Speaker 2: now reaching out to me through my contact form. People
11:19
Speaker 2: are reaching out to my husband through his therapy world,
11:22
Speaker 2: and they're like, I can't stop talking to AI. I
11:24
Speaker 2: know it's wrong, I just keep going. It's my only friend.
11:28
Speaker 2: So that is one thing that I'm like, there is
11:30
Speaker 2: a very addictive and I feel like sinister nature to it. Now,
11:35
Speaker 2: don't put me on the records for that. I'm not
11:37
Speaker 2: going down on the books like it's all evil. But
11:40
Speaker 2: I think for us to view it at all, and
11:42
Speaker 2: to teach our kids to see it at all as
11:45
Speaker 2: a relational means is dangerous, But to see it as
11:51
Speaker 2: informational at this point, I'm like, I can see it
11:54
Speaker 2: as helpful there when it doesn't get it wrong, which it.
11:58
Speaker 3: Does, which it does.
12:01
Speaker 1: But I know, I know your your book isn't you know,
12:03
Speaker 1: raising white skids in a technologically broken world? So we
12:06
Speaker 1: should probably get around to sexually broken and I think,
12:11
Speaker 1: you know, internet pornography.
12:12
Speaker 3: Is a portion of that.
12:14
Speaker 1: I had some folks on who do some amazing ministry
12:17
Speaker 1: in the pornography space and really think it through very well.
12:22
Speaker 1: But I'm wondering, when you think about sexual brokenness, what
12:25
Speaker 1: are you really talking about? Give people a handle that
12:29
Speaker 1: they can understand, you know. Is this just about transgender?
12:32
Speaker 1: Is it just about you know? What is it that
12:35
Speaker 1: we're talking about here? In a sexually broken world?
12:38
Speaker 2: So God's vision for sexuality, for us to steward our sexuality.
12:43
Speaker 2: The place where sex is supposed to happen is in
12:46
Speaker 2: a covenant between two sexually different people, and sex says
12:51
Speaker 2: to the other person, just as Jesus covenanted to be
12:57
Speaker 2: one with me, he says, take communion to remember that covenant.
13:05
Speaker 2: My giving to you in this sexual union is me redeclaring.
13:11
Speaker 2: My covenant to you is me saying I am faithful
13:16
Speaker 2: to you. In all these other areas of life, I
13:18
Speaker 2: recovenant to you. That is sexual If you want to
13:24
Speaker 2: use the word purity, that is where God wants sex
13:27
Speaker 2: to happen. For our single friends, you're giving that up
13:31
Speaker 2: for the sake of the gospel. When you feel that
13:33
Speaker 2: sexual desire, if God has called you to singleness, you're
13:36
Speaker 2: giving that up for Jesus. You're saying, Jesus, you are worthy.
13:42
Speaker 2: And the only marriage that I am called to that
13:46
Speaker 2: I everyone will be eventually in is this covenant. Is
13:49
Speaker 2: this union with you in eternity. So, married people, that's
13:53
Speaker 2: where sex happens. This is covenant, renewals, ceremony, that's where
13:57
Speaker 2: sex happens. Single people, you're giving it up for the
13:59
Speaker 2: sake of gospel. You're displaying the eternal marriage, the value,
14:03
Speaker 2: the priceless value of knowing Jesus Christ, our Lord, so
14:07
Speaker 2: and anything outside of that is sexual brokenness. Yeah, women,
14:13
Speaker 2: straight married women are the hardest women for me to
14:15
Speaker 2: convince are sexually broken. When you see marriage, we see
14:18
Speaker 2: sex as a transaction, I'll give my husband sex so
14:21
Speaker 2: that he does more housework. I saw one study that
14:24
Speaker 2: said eighty four percent of married women do that. That's
14:27
Speaker 2: sexual brokenness. So anything outside of God's beautiful covenant marriage
14:33
Speaker 2: or celibate covenant singleness to Jesus is sexual brokenness. However,
14:38
Speaker 2: in the book for this sake of clarity, where we
14:41
Speaker 2: are talking about God's beauty and then how we can
14:44
Speaker 2: teach our kids to live in a broken world, where
14:46
Speaker 2: we engage these areas marriage and singleness, and we talk
14:50
Speaker 2: about how to talk about sex, like I just talked
14:52
Speaker 2: about it gender, What is God's vision for gender because
14:55
Speaker 2: in our sex bodies there is a God's vision there.
14:59
Speaker 2: And we talk about porn prevention, so pornography is so
15:01
Speaker 2: prevalent when we talk about sexual abuse prevention. So those
15:04
Speaker 2: are the five areas that we really try and help
15:08
Speaker 2: parents and caregivers the next generation to understand what's a
15:11
Speaker 2: beauty and how can we equip our kids to live
15:13
Speaker 2: in a world where it's full of distortions.
15:16
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's let me kind of probe in a few
15:20
Speaker 1: different places for that, because I think it's really interesting
15:23
Speaker 1: the way you all address marriage and signalness I very
15:27
Speaker 1: much are.
15:27
Speaker 3: I appreciated the whole book, but those chapters.
15:30
Speaker 1: I just had a conversation with a gentleman who works
15:33
Speaker 1: with primarily a homosexual community and was advocating for singleness
15:40
Speaker 1: within the homosexual community, and part of his argument was that,
15:44
Speaker 1: you know, the theology of marriage and the theology of
15:47
Speaker 1: singleness really do need to go together. There needs to
15:50
Speaker 1: be some sort of a fit there. To understand almost
15:53
Speaker 1: the way you articulated it, that you're either married to
15:56
Speaker 1: another person and this is a covenant relationship that now
15:59
Speaker 1: you're faithful to, or your covenant relationship is primarily with
16:03
Speaker 1: Christ and now you're giving up something the physical act
16:06
Speaker 1: of sex, in order to serve Christ more fully. And
16:12
Speaker 1: I'm not exactly sure those are the words I should
16:15
Speaker 1: be using, but I do think that there is something
16:18
Speaker 1: around marriage and singleness that we struggle with because, as
16:25
Speaker 1: parents model to their kids what this covenant is to
16:28
Speaker 1: look like, it's difficult to get behind that covenant, that
16:33
Speaker 1: covenant relationship, no matter how much how well you model
16:36
Speaker 1: it to the choice that you made prior to entering.
16:39
Speaker 3: Into that covenant relationship. Does that make sense?
16:42
Speaker 1: It's like, how did I choose to become married versus
16:46
Speaker 1: choosing to remain single. What was my thought process? And
16:50
Speaker 1: for me personally, I would sit back and say, I'm
16:53
Speaker 1: not sure. I gave it a ton of thought. Right,
16:56
Speaker 1: it was almost the right. It's the default setting. It's like,
16:58
Speaker 1: I'm gonna get married. Now happy I'm married, I'm happy,
17:01
Speaker 1: I have kids. I'm like not regretting that decision at all.
17:05
Speaker 1: But at the same time, I don't recall going through
17:09
Speaker 1: a real strong discernment process before entering into that relationship.
17:15
Speaker 3: It was the default setting. So how do you help
17:18
Speaker 3: kids sort of adjust that default setting?
17:23
Speaker 2: So I mentioned five areas that we talk about in
17:26
Speaker 2: the book 'age singing a sex, gender or in French
17:29
Speaker 2: body safety. The first section we talk about is the Gospel.
17:35
Speaker 2: And I don't just talk about that to be like, hey, guys,
17:38
Speaker 2: I just said, like the cheat code. So trust me
17:41
Speaker 2: and buy this book because I said gospel, verily, Verily,
17:45
Speaker 2: I say, unto the we don't know what we're doing
17:48
Speaker 2: on this earth as Christians. When I go and speak places,
17:53
Speaker 2: this is a question I ask everyone. I say, what's
17:56
Speaker 2: the purpose of your life? And the room is either
17:59
Speaker 2: crickets or or someone quotes to me the shorter Westminster Cabchism. Sure,
18:04
Speaker 2: what's the chief and of man? To glorify God and
18:07
Speaker 2: enjoy him forever? And like great love it we say
18:10
Speaker 2: that the purpose of our life is to glorify God
18:12
Speaker 2: and enjoy Him forever. But we actually live and what
18:15
Speaker 2: we preach to our kids and what is preached to
18:18
Speaker 2: us is that the purpose of your life is to
18:20
Speaker 2: get married, make Christian babies, tithe and die. Yeah, Like
18:26
Speaker 2: truly that's the goal? Like why was it the default
18:28
Speaker 2: setting for you? I'm guessing and growing up in your home,
18:31
Speaker 2: it was a lot of when you get married, it's
18:34
Speaker 2: you go to college, you get a job, you get married,
18:36
Speaker 2: you have kids. It's like all the levels up. That's
18:38
Speaker 2: how you level up. But that is not the Bible,
18:44
Speaker 2: that's not the gospel a purpose of our life. So yes,
18:48
Speaker 2: the purpose is a glorify God and enjoy him forever.
18:50
Speaker 2: But we also have a mission, and our mission is
18:52
Speaker 2: not to get married. Our mission comes from Genesis one
18:56
Speaker 2: twenty eight, that's emphasizing Matthew twenty eight, and it is
18:59
Speaker 2: to be fruitful, supply faility, or to subdue rule. What
19:02
Speaker 2: does that mean? We're supposed to be vice regions. We're
19:04
Speaker 2: supposed to be kings, queen's priests. We're supposed to live
19:08
Speaker 2: as God lives and not just reflect his image and
19:11
Speaker 2: just like sit and be shiny, happy people. We're supposed
19:15
Speaker 2: to be advancing his rule and reign. We're supposed to
19:21
Speaker 2: transform this beautiful garden into the city of God. That's
19:24
Speaker 2: the Telos of the Bible, that is His kingdom on
19:27
Speaker 2: earth as it is in heaven. So we do that
19:32
Speaker 2: as married or single people. Those are both equally valuable
19:36
Speaker 2: ways we live out the mission to how I say
19:40
Speaker 2: it to my kids, what their mission is. Your mission
19:44
Speaker 2: is to push back the darkness and usher in the light. So, guys,
19:52
Speaker 2: you get to do this as the married or single people.
19:54
Speaker 2: When my kids don't want to go to school, when
19:55
Speaker 2: they don't want to do their homework, when they don't
19:57
Speaker 2: want to do anything, Hey, guys, you know what's so cool?
20:00
Speaker 2: I want to say. I want to say that moment,
20:02
Speaker 2: you need to get married so you can get a
20:04
Speaker 2: good job. And you know you need to go to
20:06
Speaker 2: school so you can get married and get a good
20:08
Speaker 2: job and get out. That's not the mission of God.
20:12
Speaker 2: I say, you know why you need to go to school? Why, Mom,
20:16
Speaker 2: Because God has an incredible job for you. Do you
20:19
Speaker 2: remember what our mission is? Yes, Mom, to push back
20:24
Speaker 2: the darkness and usher in the light. And God has
20:27
Speaker 2: made you to be a little light warrior. And when
20:30
Speaker 2: you go to school, you actually get to figure out
20:32
Speaker 2: how God has made you. He's given you specific gifts,
20:35
Speaker 2: specific ways to push back that darkness. When you go
20:38
Speaker 2: to school, you're getting trained for how the beautiful calling
20:42
Speaker 2: God has on your life. I said nothing about marriage,
20:46
Speaker 2: I said, I said everything about the Kingdom of God.
20:49
Speaker 2: Why don't I say anything about marriage? Because why, I
20:52
Speaker 2: don't know what God has for my kids. I actually
20:56
Speaker 2: don't just give it lip service. I actually truly believe
20:59
Speaker 2: that marriage and singleness are equally valuable. What if God
21:02
Speaker 2: has called my kids singleness and I've been preaching when
21:05
Speaker 2: you get married and that's the only way to live
21:06
Speaker 2: in the Kingdom of God, I'm just going against God's
21:09
Speaker 2: will for them because singleness or what if one of
21:13
Speaker 2: my kids experience the same sex attractions? Yeah, and their
21:16
Speaker 2: entire life. I've been saying, when you get married. So
21:19
Speaker 2: when they're eighteen, nineteen twenty or thirteen, Mom, I'm actually
21:22
Speaker 2: attracted to the same sex you've been saying, when you
21:24
Speaker 2: get married, my whole life. So here's my same sex spouse.
21:28
Speaker 2: I'm either going to be like, oh my word, my
21:30
Speaker 2: life is over. Their life is over. Or I could say,
21:33
Speaker 2: you know what, honey, some people experience attractions for the
21:36
Speaker 2: same sex. God is his vision for marriage is this
21:40
Speaker 2: between sexually different people. So it seems like perhaps God
21:45
Speaker 2: is calling you to surrender those to Jesus and get
21:47
Speaker 2: back on mission. Yeah, your life is not over if
21:51
Speaker 2: you experience the same sex attraction. Your life is not over.
21:53
Speaker 2: If God has called you to marriage, your life is
21:55
Speaker 2: still on mission to advance the Kingdom of God. So
21:58
Speaker 2: how do we not have our kids see marriage as
22:02
Speaker 2: the default? Is we actually got to believe it first. Yeah,
22:06
Speaker 2: we actually have to believe that the Kingdom of God
22:08
Speaker 2: is our primary concern and we have to see that
22:10
Speaker 2: as number one. And then we'll start preaching it in simple,
22:14
Speaker 2: age appropriate language.
22:16
Speaker 1: It's been a really interesting I would say, it's been
22:18
Speaker 1: an interesting journey for me to sort of come to this.
22:22
Speaker 2: Right.
22:22
Speaker 1: So, I mean, I'm an Old Testament geek, but I
22:26
Speaker 1: you know, I do work in both Testaments. I'm my
22:28
Speaker 1: backgrounds in theology and so I've studied those passages where
22:33
Speaker 1: Paul talks about singleness and pretty extensively, and you sort
22:38
Speaker 1: of sit back and you're like, this is a real
22:40
Speaker 1: viable option even today, despite the cultural scripts that we
22:44
Speaker 1: tend to.
22:46
Speaker 3: Accept.
22:47
Speaker 1: And so, but I will also say that there's a
22:51
Speaker 1: there's a motivating factor for me. You know, when I
22:54
Speaker 1: talk to my kids and we I'm a very sarcastic
22:57
Speaker 1: human being, and so when I talk to my kids,
22:59
Speaker 1: they know I'm a very sarcastic human being. But you know,
23:03
Speaker 1: you know, telling my daughters they shouldn't day till after college,
23:06
Speaker 1: those kind of things. I know they know I'm joking,
23:09
Speaker 1: but there's an element of me that is also very
23:13
Speaker 1: serious with them when I talk to them about they
23:15
Speaker 1: don't need to get married. Yeah, Like there's an aspect
23:19
Speaker 1: of it that you just sit back and it was like,
23:22
Speaker 1: this is what was right for Mom and I. This
23:24
Speaker 1: is the decision we made. This was a good decision
23:26
Speaker 1: for us. But at the end of the day, the
23:29
Speaker 1: Great Commission, unlike and I would say sort of unlike
23:33
Speaker 1: the Old Testament, I tend to view it as a
23:36
Speaker 1: matter of emphasis. And I'll see if you agree with
23:38
Speaker 1: this Old Testament. There is an emphasis on biological reproduction
23:42
Speaker 1: because there is a largely a covenant with a nation
23:47
Speaker 1: that needs to biologically reproduce and then and then make disciples,
23:53
Speaker 1: is the way I would phrase it. You need to
23:54
Speaker 1: biologically reproduce and then make disciples. When you get to
23:58
Speaker 1: the New Testament, the emphasis is on, no, just make disciples,
24:03
Speaker 1: and when you biologically reproduce, or if you biologically reduced,
24:07
Speaker 1: also make disciples.
24:09
Speaker 2: It's good.
24:09
Speaker 3: It's a shift in emphasis.
24:11
Speaker 1: It's not a drastic wrenching like, hey, you had to
24:15
Speaker 1: have kids over here and you don't have to have
24:16
Speaker 1: them over here.
24:17
Speaker 3: That's not the point. And so it's not that sort of.
24:20
Speaker 1: You know, ninety degree sharp turn. It's a shift in emphasis.
24:24
Speaker 1: And so what I'm trying to say is, no, you
24:27
Speaker 1: you always make disciples. No matter what you do, You're
24:30
Speaker 1: always making disciples. The question is whether those disciples are
24:34
Speaker 1: your own kids or whether they're.
24:36
Speaker 3: Just somebody else.
24:38
Speaker 2: Yes?
24:39
Speaker 3: Is that a yeah? Am I kind of scratching where
24:43
Speaker 3: you know? Am I hitting on the right note here?
24:47
Speaker 2: Yeah? I think I love it, And I you know,
24:49
Speaker 2: I'll bring this up when we go and speak and
24:51
Speaker 2: do conferences and stuff on parenting as I was like parents,
24:54
Speaker 2: like I feel with you. You have this natural instinct
24:58
Speaker 2: inside of you that's that wants to wear the sweatshirt
25:02
Speaker 2: that says, if I had known having grand babies was
25:05
Speaker 2: this good, I would have had them first, right, Like,
25:08
Speaker 2: we have this, we want to see our kids have kids. Yeah,
25:14
Speaker 2: but we're not looking deep enough or big enough. Is
25:20
Speaker 2: God doesn't just want image bearers on the earth, which
25:23
Speaker 2: he does. He wants more of his image. He wants
25:27
Speaker 2: little Christs on the earth. So that's either through your
25:32
Speaker 2: body and making them into conforming them into the image
25:36
Speaker 2: of Christ by the power of the spirit God willing.
25:38
Speaker 2: That's a discipleship process, or that's through disciple babies. So
25:42
Speaker 2: if God's called you to singleness, You're gonna make little
25:45
Speaker 2: disciple babies. You got babies from your body who become disciples.
25:48
Speaker 2: You're gonna have disciple babies who That's a language in
25:52
Speaker 2: the New Testament is parenting language. Paul, You see that, John,
25:57
Speaker 2: is that there's this real relationship between parenting and discipleship.
26:01
Speaker 2: I think is very interesting.
26:03
Speaker 1: Yeah, Paul, despite being single, has many sons and daughters,
26:07
Speaker 1: many sort of frames it like that. So yeah, fantastic.
26:13
Speaker 1: Let me switch gears a little bit to gender. So
26:16
Speaker 1: gender is interesting. You talked about our sext bodies, and
26:20
Speaker 1: I've done a little thinking about this. I became uncomfortable
26:24
Speaker 1: with the conversations around Christian masculinity at some point in
26:30
Speaker 1: the past. It just felt like it was more machismo
26:33
Speaker 1: than actually manhood. And so to me, it's like, if
26:38
Speaker 1: we're going to have these sex bodies male and female,
26:43
Speaker 1: what it means to be a Christian male has to
26:47
Speaker 1: emerge from discipleship. And this gives you a certain or
26:51
Speaker 1: Christian female obviously, but it gives you a uniqueness that is,
26:56
Speaker 1: it's uniquely you. You are not only male, but you're
27:00
Speaker 1: a whole host of other things. You're not only female,
27:02
Speaker 1: but you're a whole host of other things, and those
27:04
Speaker 1: things are shaped and formed through the discipleship process such
27:09
Speaker 1: that you become a Christian male or a you know,
27:13
Speaker 1: a male disciple or a female disciple through this process
27:17
Speaker 1: of recognizing the authority of Christ. Gender has always felt
27:22
Speaker 1: to me like that sort of when we say masculinity
27:25
Speaker 1: and femininity, these are almost stereotypical notions that compete with
27:32
Speaker 1: discipleship in some degree, and so I'm kind of interested
27:37
Speaker 1: in your take on some of that, like how do
27:39
Speaker 1: you think about gender as opposed to sex, and how
27:44
Speaker 1: do you think about gender from a biblical perspective.
27:48
Speaker 2: I know, this gets real hairy, and you'll notice I
27:51
Speaker 2: didn't really get into it in our book, so I
27:55
Speaker 2: was a little bit intentional. I was like, if you
27:59
Speaker 2: want to write the next biblical manhood and womanhood book,
28:02
Speaker 2: go to town. It's very hard to find anything in
28:07
Speaker 2: the Bible about biblical masculinity and femininity that is outside
28:12
Speaker 2: of marriage roles and church roles.
28:16
Speaker 3: I agree, like, yeah, you can't find it, and.
28:21
Speaker 2: You know through the spirit is not gendered. I I
28:26
Speaker 2: don't know how deeply I can get into this without
28:29
Speaker 2: getting like in trouble, but I think it is interesting. Gosh,
28:35
Speaker 2: let's start this conversation with that sentence. I appreciated the
28:41
Speaker 2: only works that I've appreciated on this conversation on the
28:45
Speaker 2: subject as far as gender and sex. So sex and
28:48
Speaker 2: gender I think should be together. We are to what
28:52
Speaker 2: it means to be a man is it has to
28:53
Speaker 2: do with your biological sex. How do you feel inside
28:56
Speaker 2: of your biology, biological body, inside of your body as
29:01
Speaker 2: male or as female? Some people don't feel like they
29:04
Speaker 2: belong inside their body. That's why we use that word
29:07
Speaker 2: gender sometimes, like your gender and your sex, don't Matt,
29:10
Speaker 2: Should they be separate? No, that is not intended design. However,
29:14
Speaker 2: some people are like, well, I actually in my male body,
29:16
Speaker 2: I don't feel like a man. But then as you
29:18
Speaker 2: start asking questions like what does it mean to be
29:20
Speaker 2: a man? It starts getting real squishy.
29:23
Speaker 3: Right, It's like what do you mean right?
29:28
Speaker 2: Or what's it mean to be a female? Like I'll
29:29
Speaker 2: ask at these conferences we do, I'm like, raise your
29:31
Speaker 2: hand if you're the ideal specimen of female. Zero women
29:36
Speaker 2: feel like the ideal woman, zero men feel like the
29:39
Speaker 2: ideal man. We all have some operation. But there are
29:42
Speaker 2: friends for whom they have gender dysphoria, or that dissonance
29:46
Speaker 2: between their insides and their outsides is extreme and that
29:50
Speaker 2: is not a sin. That's the effects of sin on them.
29:53
Speaker 2: I would say, is that that's living in a broken world,
29:56
Speaker 2: and it is extreme, and I have grief and pain
29:58
Speaker 2: for them. It's not dissimilar to how I feel as
30:02
Speaker 2: someone who's experienced sexual trauma. When I get triggered. My
30:05
Speaker 2: body might be in a safe place, but inside. I
30:08
Speaker 2: don't feel safe.
30:09
Speaker 3: Yeah?
30:10
Speaker 2: Am I not safe? No? Should it be that way? No?
30:13
Speaker 2: Is that the me sinning? No, that's the effects of
30:16
Speaker 2: sin on me. There's this dissonance. So we need tough
30:18
Speaker 2: compassion and care and love and tenderness. But about gender,
30:23
Speaker 2: does it mean to be a political man or woman?
30:24
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I hate it. But the only book
30:26
Speaker 2: that I have kind of relatively thought this is interesting
30:30
Speaker 2: is actually Larry Krabb's book Fully Alive. Have you ever
30:34
Speaker 2: heard of this? Yeah?
30:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, Fully Alive?
30:37
Speaker 2: Did you read it? I did?
30:38
Speaker 3: Yeah.
30:40
Speaker 2: So scholarship isn't great, but I think it'd be from
30:42
Speaker 2: what my like pres and sprangle. He's like, I don't
30:45
Speaker 2: love it, but I do think it'd be interesting to say, Okay,
30:48
Speaker 2: if there is anything to biblical manhood or womanhood, is
30:51
Speaker 2: there anything to our biology that speaks to what it
30:55
Speaker 2: means to be a man? Is there anything to our
30:56
Speaker 2: biology about speaks to be a woman. It's interesting at
31:00
Speaker 2: least the start of a conversation.
31:02
Speaker 3: Agreed.
31:03
Speaker 1: I think that's sort of And I will say I
31:06
Speaker 1: appreciate it from that perspective, I think where I look
31:09
Speaker 1: at it and I say, you know so much of
31:11
Speaker 1: this stuff exists on a spectrum, right, So you can
31:14
Speaker 1: talk about on average, men are more aggressive than women.
31:18
Speaker 1: Let's say, yeah, but you can't say that every man.
31:21
Speaker 1: Then if a man is not aggressive, he's not masculine.
31:25
Speaker 1: And that's where all this sort of stuff starts to
31:27
Speaker 1: break down. And so it's it's a very difficult thing,
31:32
Speaker 1: I think for us to conceive of this idea that
31:35
Speaker 1: there's a predominant male or predominant female set of characteristics
31:41
Speaker 1: and then say that Christian men and women should conform
31:44
Speaker 1: to those, and I would just not like the way
31:48
Speaker 1: I've tried. The question that I got stuck on was
31:53
Speaker 1: is Jesus is David? Is Isaiah? Is Jeremiah is Joseph?
32:00
Speaker 1: Are these biblical characters ideal men in the sext perspective?
32:07
Speaker 1: Or are they ideals of the faith? When I read
32:10
Speaker 1: Hebrews eleven, should I skip over Rahab as a man?
32:15
Speaker 1: Or should I be learning from her example? And those
32:20
Speaker 1: are the parts where I'm kind of sitting there, like,
32:22
Speaker 1: I think we've just had this sort of masculinity femininity
32:25
Speaker 1: conversation in a way wrong.
32:27
Speaker 3: Note.
32:29
Speaker 1: I think there needs to be some sort of resetting
32:32
Speaker 1: of it, and we need to just sort of look
32:34
Speaker 1: back and go, Look, I like what you're saying. If
32:38
Speaker 1: discipleship is at the root of all this stuff, why
32:41
Speaker 1: is it that we're adopting these misconceptions about what a
32:45
Speaker 1: man is. Is if because I bench more than someone else,
32:48
Speaker 1: I'm more masculine, or if I like camping, you know,
32:51
Speaker 1: I'm more macho.
32:54
Speaker 2: Point to the verse that says that, right.
32:56
Speaker 1: These things just don't work, and so it's a really
33:01
Speaker 1: interesting and difficult I think sort of point. But I
33:04
Speaker 1: love that your your comment about, look, your gender and
33:08
Speaker 1: your sex should match. Yeah, and I think maybe and
33:12
Speaker 1: see if you agree with this, would the next logical
33:15
Speaker 1: question be, then what is your gender?
33:19
Speaker 3: Sort of how are we understanding that.
33:23
Speaker 2: It should be your biological sex should be your gender,
33:27
Speaker 2: those should be aligned.
33:29
Speaker 3: Yeah.
33:30
Speaker 2: Do people struggle with that? Yes? Is it on a spectrum? Yeah,
33:34
Speaker 2: But it's like who's who's writing the extremes. It's like
33:37
Speaker 2: culture is saying what it means to be a man
33:39
Speaker 2: and a woman. So it's I will say, when I
33:42
Speaker 2: walk with my friends who wrestle with their gender, they're
33:47
Speaker 2: grateful for the more like, Okay, I'm supposed to look
33:50
Speaker 2: like Jesus and I'm just gonna love my version of female. Yeah,
33:57
Speaker 2: even though if I'm a born biological female. If I'm thinking.
34:00
Speaker 2: You know, my friend Kat who wrestles with her gender,
34:02
Speaker 2: she's a biological female, and she that was actually very
34:07
Speaker 2: helpful for her was to think and actually reading Fully
34:12
Speaker 2: Alive was kind of helpful for her to be like,
34:14
Speaker 2: maybe there is something to my biology that makes me female.
34:18
Speaker 2: This open to receive and to nourish, as he says.
34:20
Speaker 2: But she was like, is there a way I can
34:23
Speaker 2: just love and embrace my version of female as God
34:28
Speaker 2: has made me? So I'm not trying to reject it.
34:31
Speaker 2: I'm not trying to say I'm male, But can I
34:34
Speaker 2: just live into this is me? My gender is I
34:39
Speaker 2: don't know. It's like when you start staring at it
34:41
Speaker 2: too long, it gets so you just your eyes go
34:44
Speaker 2: get crossed. It's like, Okay, accept my body. I don't
34:47
Speaker 2: always feel like the ideal woman or even like a woman,
34:51
Speaker 2: But God, I am choosing to accept this tension. Yeah,
34:57
Speaker 2: and honor you in this tension. And isn't the Christian
35:03
Speaker 2: life basically yeah, free, free, new heavens, new Earth. Like God,
35:08
Speaker 2: I'm choosing to glorify you in this already. Not yet,
35:12
Speaker 2: I'm choosing to glorify you in the midst of whatever
35:17
Speaker 2: He has allowed us to suffer with.
35:19
Speaker 1: It's really interesting, you say, I mean, when I look
35:21
Speaker 1: at the New Testament and I see the master slave
35:24
Speaker 1: dynamics that are pointed there, and I know slavery isn't
35:26
Speaker 1: exactly the same as what we're used to in America
35:29
Speaker 1: and all that kind of good stuff. But there's no
35:31
Speaker 1: point in history that being a bond servant was actually
35:34
Speaker 1: the ideal position. But what is Paul talking about when
35:38
Speaker 1: he deals with these things. He's saying, right, just own it.
35:41
Speaker 1: You can minister, you can have a ministry. You can
35:44
Speaker 1: glorify God in this moment. You don't have to get
35:47
Speaker 1: out of this situation in order to glorify God in
35:51
Speaker 1: order to be faithful. And you can live as a
35:53
Speaker 1: bond servant and be faithful to Christ both at the
35:56
Speaker 1: same time, and you can do that in unique ways.
36:00
Speaker 1: It seems like there's a lesson there for us when
36:02
Speaker 1: we're struggling with something like gender, When we sit back
36:05
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, there's this real deep tension.
36:07
Speaker 3: Maybe it's not way. We're not in the ideal situation.
36:09
Speaker 1: Probably none of us are no, But at the same time,
36:13
Speaker 1: there's that extra focus and it just feels like there's
36:18
Speaker 1: you know, the way you describe marriage I think is
36:20
Speaker 1: so beautiful. It just feels like the way we could
36:22
Speaker 1: talk about gender is very similar. Even if you're experiencing
36:26
Speaker 1: that tension between sex and gender, there's a disconnect. It's like, well,
36:30
Speaker 1: you don't have to change that in order to glorify God.
36:34
Speaker 2: Yes, And even in living in that tension, Like I'm
36:38
Speaker 2: just telling you my friends who wrestle in this space,
36:41
Speaker 2: I'm just so in awe of their faithful Yeah, suffering
36:47
Speaker 2: and glorifying God and joy and it's not all just
36:50
Speaker 2: like everything's terrible, Like I like, aren't you blessed when
36:54
Speaker 2: you watch someone who's suffering? Well, yeah, it's just taps
37:01
Speaker 2: the spirit and I says, looking for Jesus. It's such
37:04
Speaker 2: a beautiful christ like reflection to say this is not
37:07
Speaker 2: ideal got them to glorify and honor you in the
37:10
Speaker 2: midst of it. Yeah, it's pretty incredible.
37:14
Speaker 1: Well, let's dive into that sort of third leg at
37:16
Speaker 1: this point, the spiritual abuse aspect or the sexual abuse aspect.
37:21
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, not sexual abuse.
37:22
Speaker 1: The sexual abuse aspect talk a little bit about that,
37:25
Speaker 1: because I think this is a really crucial aspect, not
37:28
Speaker 1: only from the perspective of kids you might get sexually abused,
37:33
Speaker 1: but also of how sexual abuse is sort of becoming
37:36
Speaker 1: more rampant in our culture.
37:38
Speaker 2: I know it's too florable. So at least one out
37:42
Speaker 2: of four of our daughters will experience childhood sexual abuse
37:45
Speaker 2: before the eighteen and at least one out of ten
37:47
Speaker 2: I've read like one out of five boys we'll experience it.
37:50
Speaker 2: And you know, it's something no one wants to talk
37:54
Speaker 2: about or think about. But I am again after writing
38:01
Speaker 2: this book and doing all the study and gender and
38:05
Speaker 2: I know everyone's like, ah, my word, LGBTQ stuff. We're
38:07
Speaker 2: all freaking out. I walked away from writing this book
38:10
Speaker 2: and doing all the research the most concerned about pornography
38:16
Speaker 2: and specifically how much it is growing younger and it's
38:22
Speaker 2: leading to the abuse of children. And this is only
38:25
Speaker 2: increased since COVID, and it's only increasing now with AI
38:30
Speaker 2: and live streamed abuse that's happening in third world countries.
38:36
Speaker 2: It's deplorable. It feels almost inevitable, like our kids are
38:40
Speaker 2: going to get hurt. But I don't declare that over anyone,
38:44
Speaker 2: But it feels like it's just rampant.
38:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it is. Statistically it is, right, how do you?
38:57
Speaker 1: I mean, there's the inevitable question of how do you
38:59
Speaker 1: deal with someone who's been sexually abused? And I think
39:03
Speaker 1: even more, maybe more crucial, is how do we proactively
39:07
Speaker 1: address this as parents such that we can help our
39:11
Speaker 1: kids avoid both. Maybe being sexually abused isn't avoidable, right,
39:17
Speaker 1: maybe we can help them avoid sexually abusing others. Yeah, yeah,
39:23
Speaker 1: I think pornography is a form of sexual abuse that
39:27
Speaker 1: we don't often recognize as such.
39:29
Speaker 3: And so how do we think this through with our kids?
39:33
Speaker 2: Yeah? So from a young age, top way to prevent
39:37
Speaker 2: childhood sexual abuse is teach your kid biological body parts.
39:41
Speaker 2: That seems countertwited, like what are you talking about teaching
39:44
Speaker 2: your kids not nicknames for private parts, but the names
39:48
Speaker 2: of them. I don't know if I want to get
39:50
Speaker 2: an e on your podcast, but thank you every body
39:53
Speaker 2: part that you could say, and it doesn't if you
39:57
Speaker 2: don't know how to say it with confidence. Just practice
40:00
Speaker 2: and as you're washing your baby you have a good
40:03
Speaker 2: elbow and knee and good private parts, say it out
40:06
Speaker 2: loud as they're getting older, to not be shamed, to
40:10
Speaker 2: not laugh, to not make fun of them, but to
40:12
Speaker 2: honor them as special. We do not cover up private
40:16
Speaker 2: parts because they're bad. We cover them up because we
40:20
Speaker 2: honor them as special. Because they're the only parts of
40:22
Speaker 2: their body that can produce a mago day life. So
40:26
Speaker 2: we want to honor them. So, oh, that's why we
40:28
Speaker 2: shut the door. So from a very young age, why
40:31
Speaker 2: it is teaching about private parts, anatomical names, biological names
40:34
Speaker 2: for private parts, because teaches your kid that you're not
40:37
Speaker 2: ashamed of them. They don't need to hide them, they
40:38
Speaker 2: can talk about them. These are not things that we're
40:40
Speaker 2: scared of. Also teaches your kids if someone's trying to
40:44
Speaker 2: prey on them, to groom them, to try and hurt them,
40:47
Speaker 2: which the majority of predation happens by someone or kids know,
40:51
Speaker 2: or an acquaintance or someone at church, different daycares, but
40:54
Speaker 2: usually it's a relative or family friend or neighbor. There's
40:57
Speaker 2: a lot of peer on peer abuse as well, and
41:00
Speaker 2: at recess happening right now it's increasing. But your kids
41:04
Speaker 2: no private part names. That's going to signal to a
41:06
Speaker 2: potential groomer, who often use nicknames for private parts. It's
41:10
Speaker 2: going to signal to them that they have parents who
41:12
Speaker 2: are teaching them, they have involved parents. And then also
41:17
Speaker 2: if your kid comes home and they're saying some strange
41:20
Speaker 2: names for their private parts, you're gonna be like, what
41:23
Speaker 2: in the world, why are they saying this? And so
41:25
Speaker 2: it's going to signal to you that maybe something's going on. Also,
41:29
Speaker 2: if God forbid, something happens to our kids, if they
41:32
Speaker 2: have specific names for even different parts of their private parts,
41:36
Speaker 2: that is going to help police, help them to get
41:41
Speaker 2: to say exactly what happened to them without it being
41:43
Speaker 2: like a nickname. So that's the number one way to
41:46
Speaker 2: prevent childo sexual abuse. Also, having family rules to give
41:50
Speaker 2: a list in the book, like start from very young,
41:53
Speaker 2: and I say it with joy, I don't say it
41:55
Speaker 2: with fear. I'm like, all right, we don't ask to see,
41:58
Speaker 2: don't ask to touch, don't show or play with other
42:02
Speaker 2: people's private parts, or show anyone our own. We have
42:05
Speaker 2: family rules. When friends are over, we always keep doors open.
42:09
Speaker 2: I know, isn't moms super annoying. We just always keep
42:12
Speaker 2: doors open because a lot of things happen in play.
42:15
Speaker 2: I don't care if I'm the annoying, mom, I am
42:17
Speaker 2: always going to be saying that with joy inconsistency. We
42:20
Speaker 2: don't ask to see or touch or show our own
42:23
Speaker 2: private parts. We always keep doors open, we shut doors
42:26
Speaker 2: when we go to the bathroom. And this is just
42:27
Speaker 2: because we honor there's a lot of shame talk in
42:30
Speaker 2: the eighties and nineties. That's a shame. It's not shame.
42:34
Speaker 2: This is honoring private parts for the value that they are.
42:37
Speaker 2: So that's a big thing. So teach private parts have
42:39
Speaker 2: family rules. And the third thing is treat the internet
42:45
Speaker 2: like you are dropping your kids off downtown New York
42:48
Speaker 2: City in the middle of the night. Yeah, you would
42:52
Speaker 2: never do that, So our kids they know. I'm like, yeah,
42:57
Speaker 2: you know what, the world is kind of a sketchy place,
42:59
Speaker 2: and there's certain time that we need to be really
43:00
Speaker 2: extra careful. Do you know is a very dangerous place.
43:02
Speaker 2: The internet, And I don't freak them out. We're not
43:06
Speaker 2: doing seventeen paragraphs on that. But in our home the
43:09
Speaker 2: tone is we're sus of the internet. We're not like overjoyed.
43:13
Speaker 2: And so that takes me as a mom to not
43:15
Speaker 2: be addicted to my phone and me loving the internet.
43:17
Speaker 2: So I want my kids when they have more access
43:21
Speaker 2: to tread cautiously as I would want them to tread
43:24
Speaker 2: cautiously in the middle of New York City in the
43:26
Speaker 2: middle of the night. So I'm going to have guardrails,
43:29
Speaker 2: I'm going to have, you know, be able to see
43:31
Speaker 2: what they're doing. But we need to overprotect online and
43:34
Speaker 2: then allow our kids free play where it's safe. But
43:37
Speaker 2: then having those family rules. Teaching anatomical body parts, I mean,
43:40
Speaker 2: cautious online and teaching our kids caution is a good
43:43
Speaker 2: beginning to preventing childhood sexual abuse, would.
43:46
Speaker 3: You say too. I mean one of the experiences I've had.
43:49
Speaker 1: We live on the Illinois side of Saint Louis, and
43:52
Speaker 1: so when we drive into Saint Louis, we take a
43:54
Speaker 1: road and we and we drive by what's called Strip
43:57
Speaker 1: Strip Club Row all the time. One of the unfortunate
44:03
Speaker 1: parts is one of the clubs is named the same
44:05
Speaker 1: as my daughter, right, so you know, and so it
44:08
Speaker 1: was very noticeable when she was even.
44:10
Speaker 3: Young, and it's like, well, what goes on there?
44:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
44:15
Speaker 3: What I have found to be at least partially helpful
44:18
Speaker 3: is just pointing out how evil these places are.
44:23
Speaker 1: One of the digital billboards that they put up on
44:27
Speaker 1: one of these clubs says school.
44:29
Speaker 3: Owns got you down.
44:31
Speaker 1: We're hiring wow and just having a conversation with my
44:35
Speaker 1: kids about Look, just I want you to think about
44:39
Speaker 1: all the ways that makes that sign makes sense. Yeah, right,
44:44
Speaker 1: These these young girls are in now financial trouble. They're
44:51
Speaker 1: feeling this pressure and this establishment is trying to take
44:56
Speaker 1: advantage of that to get them to take their clothes
44:58
Speaker 1: off in front of men's they can earn money to
45:00
Speaker 1: pay off the school debt.
45:03
Speaker 3: That's how it makes sense. It's not a laughable sign.
45:06
Speaker 1: It's real, like, that's really happening to real people, and
45:11
Speaker 1: it's despicable. And so we've tried as we you know,
45:15
Speaker 1: it's hard to avoid anymore. Right, it's not just the Internet,
45:18
Speaker 1: it's all this stuff that you drive by, that you
45:23
Speaker 1: see on a daily basis. We've tried to sort of
45:25
Speaker 1: highlight this as Look, there is such a thing as
45:28
Speaker 1: systemic sin. The world is not as it should be.
45:32
Speaker 1: It's broken. Don't participate in the brokenness, right, Redeem the brokenness.
45:37
Speaker 1: Be different than the brokenness. Not about fixing the world,
45:42
Speaker 1: but yeah, push back the darkness. That's similar language. Do
45:46
Speaker 1: you see that as sort of a viable helpful strategy.
45:49
Speaker 1: Just is it more about clear conversation and like openness
45:54
Speaker 1: about what you're seeing as opposed to hiding it away.
45:58
Speaker 2: I am a fan of parents shaping the gospel narrative
46:04
Speaker 2: in their home and then also sins effect on the
46:09
Speaker 2: world through beautiful everyday conversations like that it. You know,
46:16
Speaker 2: there's one study I was reading about how sex talks
46:21
Speaker 2: go the best and even how like parents parent the
46:27
Speaker 2: best in a way that cultivates relationship with their kids
46:31
Speaker 2: and the kids end up like following the rules the best.
46:35
Speaker 2: Now there's authoritarian parenting that's top down, You're gonna do
46:38
Speaker 2: what I say and here's the rules, and up not
46:40
Speaker 2: in a great relationship. Kids might follow the rules in
46:43
Speaker 2: your home, probably not out. Then there's permissive parenting. They
46:46
Speaker 2: have good relationship back and forth, but when parents say
46:49
Speaker 2: the rules, it's like very squishy, we have a hard
46:52
Speaker 2: time like laying it down. Ideal parenting that promotes the
46:57
Speaker 2: best relationship between parents and kids and kids end up
47:01
Speaker 2: following the rules more is authoritative parenting. Those are parents
47:05
Speaker 2: they have an open conversation. They don't just explain the rules,
47:09
Speaker 2: explain the why behind the rules, and kids can talk
47:13
Speaker 2: about it. There's dialogue, and that even if the parent
47:17
Speaker 2: is like, Okay, well, this is still what we're going
47:18
Speaker 2: to do. The fact that there's dialogue actually helps kids
47:22
Speaker 2: to follow the rules for longer. It actually promotes parental
47:25
Speaker 2: conversation and relationship better between parent and kids when they
47:28
Speaker 2: understand the why and there's back and forth, even if
47:31
Speaker 2: the rules are still the rules. So what I hear
47:33
Speaker 2: you modeling, which is just I mean, that's deuteronomy right
47:36
Speaker 2: like in your going let's talk about this, and you
47:38
Speaker 2: go wake up and go to bed. So I love that.
47:41
Speaker 2: It's like you're like, here's the beauty, here's the aberration,
47:45
Speaker 2: and what I would add and what I hear just
47:47
Speaker 2: naturally and what you're saying is a non anxious presentation
47:53
Speaker 2: of the beauty of God's world and the distortions we
47:57
Speaker 2: see around us. Kids have mirrors, so they're gonna pick up.
48:02
Speaker 2: If you're anxious, you're like, oh my gosh, we're going
48:05
Speaker 2: through strip row. I'm having a panic attack, even if
48:08
Speaker 2: you are. But for you to say the beauty, the why,
48:12
Speaker 2: to have these conversations and to be a non anxious
48:16
Speaker 2: presence for your kids, you are modeling in so many ways, like, yeah,
48:19
Speaker 2: I guess what we do live in a broken world,
48:21
Speaker 2: and this is how our family approaches it. We say
48:24
Speaker 2: a strong noe, but here's why, beautiful.
48:29
Speaker 3: Well, this is good. We're running close to times. So
48:32
Speaker 3: I want to kind of ask you last question.
48:33
Speaker 1: I ask a lot of my guests, and that is
48:36
Speaker 1: just this And I think if you could tailor it
48:38
Speaker 1: to kids, that would be fantastic. But sure, what do
48:40
Speaker 1: you think the church needs to be doing today that
48:43
Speaker 1: it's not doing to really help kids grow into disciples
48:48
Speaker 1: of Jesus Christ.
48:49
Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean, if if one legacy from this work
48:58
Speaker 2: that I'm doing is parents are preaching the true beautiful
49:05
Speaker 2: Gospel purpose of their lives to their kids and their home,
49:11
Speaker 2: and that the purpose is not marriage. A little that's good,
49:14
Speaker 2: and that shows us the picture of eternal marriage. Marriage
49:16
Speaker 2: and single it shows the picture of eternal marriage. Great. Yeah,
49:19
Speaker 2: but if we actually make the first thing, the first
49:22
Speaker 2: thing that are calling our purpose our mission is to
49:27
Speaker 2: advance God's rule and reign until the Kingdom of God
49:30
Speaker 2: is on earth as it is in heaven, to God's
49:31
Speaker 2: glory and our good like works. How many how many
49:39
Speaker 2: LGBTQ people have I talked to that when they discovered
49:42
Speaker 2: their same sex attractions, they thought their life was over
49:45
Speaker 2: because they thought their purpose was to get married and
49:47
Speaker 2: make Christian babies and tithe and die. What if that
49:49
Speaker 2: didn't happen anymore? Yeah, what if when they found it
49:53
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, great, this is my version of sexual brokenness.
49:56
Speaker 2: I can surrender to Jesus. That'd be amazing. Yeah, can
50:00
Speaker 2: begin to move the needle to really remember Jesus was
50:04
Speaker 2: our true purpose. I think, I mean, we did we
50:08
Speaker 2: do some beautiful work to advance God's kingdom and maybe
50:12
Speaker 2: prevent some some people saying goodbye to Jesus when really
50:17
Speaker 2: they didn't need to.
50:19
Speaker 1: That's a beautiful answer. I really appreciate that, and really
50:24
Speaker 1: appreciated your book. I thought this was a fantastic book.
50:29
Speaker 1: Again as somebody who's raised kids and sort of had
50:31
Speaker 1: to fumble through for you know, my older kids sixteen
50:35
Speaker 1: year old, but we have a four year old now
50:39
Speaker 1: and that we just adopted, and so these are matters
50:42
Speaker 1: that are actually pretty on my mind.
50:45
Speaker 3: You know, how do we do this, how do we
50:47
Speaker 3: do this well?
50:48
Speaker 1: And what does this look like in an age that
50:50
Speaker 1: has pretty significant changes and challenges. Right, it's not the
50:55
Speaker 1: same world that my son who's twenty grew up in. Right,
50:59
Speaker 1: it's a very different way world and so very much
51:02
Speaker 1: appreciated this book. I just encourage listeners, if you're interested
51:05
Speaker 1: in all of these topics, pick up Raising Wise Kids
51:08
Speaker 1: in a Sexually Broken World by Laurie and Matt Kreeg.
51:12
Speaker 1: It's fantastic, you'll love it. I'm going to put the
51:15
Speaker 1: link in the show description. IVP gives us twenty percent
51:18
Speaker 1: discount on books if you order it off the IVP website.
51:21
Speaker 1: So and encourage you to go there. And then Laurie,
51:23
Speaker 1: is there other places where they can find your work?
51:26
Speaker 1: More resources for this kind of thing? Do you want
51:28
Speaker 1: to give another website?
51:30
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you go to Center Forfaith dot com, we've
51:32
Speaker 2: got tons of resources, especially if you're a pastor or parent,
51:35
Speaker 2: ministry leader of any kind. We have a lot of
51:38
Speaker 2: free resources there for you, as well as videos, curriculums.
51:43
Speaker 2: It's a ton we're doing there, and I'm always trying
51:45
Speaker 2: to do like ninety seconds. If you only got ninety seconds,
51:47
Speaker 2: just find me on Instagram trying to do little videos
51:50
Speaker 2: to help us with a little bit of time.
51:52
Speaker 3: We have very good.
51:54
Speaker 1: Well, we'll put that link in the show notes as well.
51:56
Speaker 1: So I just encourage you to take a look at
51:59
Speaker 1: everything that Lori and Matt have available and definitely check
52:03
Speaker 1: out the book. Thanks so much, Laurier for being here.
52:06
Speaker 1: I really appreciate having you on.
52:08
Speaker 2: It was a real joy to be with you.
52:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, everybody, thanks for sticking with us, and
52:13
Speaker 1: we will catch you on the next episode of Thinking
52:15
Speaker 1: Christian Take Care. I just want to take a second
52:17
Speaker 1: to thank the team at Life Audio for their partnership
52:20
Speaker 1: with us on the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go
52:23
Speaker 1: to lifeaudio dot com, you'll find dozens of other faith
52:25
Speaker 1: centered podcasts in their network. They've got shows about prayer,
52:28
Speaker 1: Bible study, parenting, and more.