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Beyond the Screen: Why Your Physical Presence is the Secret to Mental Health · Thinking Christian: Bible, Theology, and Culture

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  Speaker 1: The world is becoming increasingly proficient at telling stories that
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  Speaker 1: as natural as breathing. Welcome to the Thinking Christian Podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I'm doctor James Spencer, and through calm, thoughtful theological discussions,
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  Speaker 1: today's episode of Thinking Christian.
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  Speaker 2: He called to make a difference in mental health.
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  Speaker 1: Hey everyone, welcome back to this episode of Thinking Christian.
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  Speaker 1: I'm joined today by doctor Ben Matthew. He is a
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  Speaker 1: professor of counselor education. I almost always get that wrong
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  Speaker 1: at Columbia International University, And today we're going to be
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  Speaker 1: talking about the embodied leg of this sort of structure
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  Speaker 1: we're pulling together in relation to faith and mental health.
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  Speaker 1: And just to remind everybody, we're really sort of playing
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  Speaker 1: off this article that dealt with deaths of despair and
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  Speaker 1: how when Blue State laws and those laws were related
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  Speaker 1: to the closure of retail outlets on Sundays were done
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  Speaker 1: away with, there was an increase correlative increase in these
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  Speaker 1: deaths of despair. And so as we dive into this
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  Speaker 1: embodied leg, what we're really talking about is what is
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  Speaker 1: the communal life, the embeddedment in being embedded within a
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  Speaker 1: communal life. What does that do for our mental health?
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  Speaker 1: How does that help us, how does that ground us,
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  Speaker 1: how does it give us sort of symbolic handles to
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  Speaker 1: understand the world and to cope with its challenges. And
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  Speaker 1: so that's where we're kind of going today. So I'll
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  Speaker 1: just I'll kind of kick it off and just say,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I think a lot of times where we
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  Speaker 1: are right now, I do a lot with digital world stuff.
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  Speaker 1: I do a lot with social media and all that
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  Speaker 1: kind of fun stuff. And I know there are some
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  Speaker 1: detrimental aspects to this, but I also don't think that
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  Speaker 1: we push back hard enough in certain instances. And part
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  Speaker 1: of the reason I was drawn to the Deaths of
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  Speaker 1: Despair report was that it unearthed something that wasn't digital.
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  Speaker 1: And it's the idea that when given choices and the
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  Speaker 1: ability to make those choices easily, we are often going
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  Speaker 1: to choose things that aren't that good for us. In
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  Speaker 1: other words, if I can drive to the store and
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  Speaker 1: shop as opposed to driving to church and worship, I'm
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  Speaker 1: making a poor choice.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: And so our mobility, right, our ability to move about
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  Speaker 1: as that's expanded, I think we haven't thought through quite
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  Speaker 1: well enough where we want.
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  Speaker 2: To travel too in a given instance, and.
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  Speaker 1: How traveling to something like the church is going to
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  Speaker 1: give us a ritual symbolic rooting in the world.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I was. I think I was talking to
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  Speaker 3: you about this and some others early. I still remember
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  Speaker 3: as a kid Sundays where everything was closed like that,
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  Speaker 3: that was the norm for most Sundays. And when those
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  Speaker 3: when those laws started changing, when those stores started opening up,
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  Speaker 3: both this sense of like, uh, are we allowed to
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  Speaker 3: do this? Like it is this allowed? Is God gonna
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  Speaker 3: strike us down from the Holy Mountain? And also some
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  Speaker 3: excitement like, oh, I can actually go to the store
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  Speaker 3: during this time, I can actually go see a movie
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  Speaker 3: on Sundays. And yeah, like the thought of what it
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  Speaker 3: opened up was kind of exciting for a young kid
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  Speaker 3: like myself because it was formally blocked off, and I
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  Speaker 3: saw it as, to be honest, an opportunity like I
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  Speaker 3: get to do more of what I want to do,
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  Speaker 3: rather than I get to do church and then I
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  Speaker 3: get to go home and back in the day. Then
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  Speaker 3: we'd go back to church at Sunday night, like we
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  Speaker 3: had all kinds of church going on like all day,
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  Speaker 3: and it just seems so so plaustrophobic. Whereas when those
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  Speaker 3: laws change and I could go to the mall, I
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  Speaker 3: could go to the movie theater, I could go to
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  Speaker 3: the arcade back in the day when I had to
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  Speaker 3: go to a physical place to play video games like
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  Speaker 3: it was all it was all very right, and that itself,
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  Speaker 3: I remember the excitement, the fear, and the excitement of that.
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  Speaker 3: But again, what we always try to do with this,
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  Speaker 3: researchers understand the correlational, like you said, reactions of is
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  Speaker 3: that this didn't cause necessarily these realities, but they tend
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  Speaker 3: to find connection in terms of what it then provides.
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  Speaker 3: How we then responded with so many other correlates that
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  Speaker 3: were available at that time, one of which is this
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  Speaker 3: disconnection from the Body of Christ, if not just relationally
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  Speaker 3: and socially and spiritually even physically. Right, even me saying
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  Speaker 3: we should have a Sunday night meeting, I don't think
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  Speaker 3: that's normative any And I'm not trying to make an
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  Speaker 3: argument that Sunday night is, say good or bad. It's
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  Speaker 3: just we've lost more sense of that communal rhythm of togetherness,
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  Speaker 3: and that's got to play an implication into some of
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  Speaker 3: the struggles that we're dealing with as a society.
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  Speaker 1: I think so, I mean, I think we're at least
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  Speaker 1: in some of the research that I'm doing. I've gotten
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  Speaker 1: into cognitive psychology and the notion of embedded or embodied
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  Speaker 1: knowing and how it is that our bodies help us
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  Speaker 1: to understand the world around us. And I told the
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  Speaker 1: story on a previous podcast. You know of the different
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  Speaker 1: ways that you know my wife when she's walking in
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  Speaker 1: a in a or when she's traveling in a city
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  Speaker 1: by herself, she doesn't feel comfortable walking. I don't really
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  Speaker 1: think like that. I feel generally safe in most places.
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  Speaker 1: I assume that there's going to be somebody who's more
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  Speaker 1: of a you know, who's a better target for.
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  Speaker 2: Someone than me.
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  Speaker 1: Now maybe that's the wrong assumption, and I'm just fooling myself,
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  Speaker 1: but either way, you know the way I embody the world,
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  Speaker 1: I do feel that way, and then you know, you
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  Speaker 1: have the juxtaposition of that I can and this is
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  Speaker 1: a totally different story, but I can remember working on
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  Speaker 1: the farm when I was over the summers, when I
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  Speaker 1: was a kid to work on the farm, and in
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  Speaker 1: high school, I was still pretty big. I hated being
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  Speaker 1: in small spaces, anything where both shoulders were touching the
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  Speaker 1: sides of two things would drive me crazy because it
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  Speaker 1: just didn't feel comfortable. That sort of space. So it's
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  Speaker 1: not an argument to hey, let's get you know, let's
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  Speaker 1: embody the world in a very particular way, but it
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  Speaker 1: is the point is that the ways we the physical
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  Speaker 1: situations that we put ourselves in, do have implications for
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  Speaker 1: how we think and understand the world around us. And
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  Speaker 1: that's not trivial. It's actually, I think becoming more and
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  Speaker 1: more that people are realizing it's not just that it's
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  Speaker 1: not trivial, it's actually pretty crucial.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean in a clinical context, research and
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  Speaker 3: psychological studies are appreciating that physicality that is part of
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  Speaker 3: the therapeutic process, right, if not how we breathe, you know,
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  Speaker 3: structured box breathing. Right, we talk about this idea of
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  Speaker 3: control breathing as a measure of regaining some calm and
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  Speaker 3: panic attacks, or the utilization of a cold pack on
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  Speaker 3: the back of your neck or certain pressure points, the
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  Speaker 3: ability to physically One of the things that I'll use
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  Speaker 3: with clients that are struggling with severe anxiety is to
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  Speaker 3: name five things in the place you're sitting in. Okay,
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  Speaker 3: there's a window, there's a chair, there's a speaker, that
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  Speaker 3: the engagement with the physicality of your setting research is
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  Speaker 3: finding it has an incredible way of what we call grounding, right,
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  Speaker 3: I mean it literally helps you calm your heart rate,
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  Speaker 3: calm your breathing, calm your response. That generally what we
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  Speaker 3: understand about anxiety is this kind of flight or fright
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  Speaker 3: or freeze response. Right when we perceive some danger in
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  Speaker 3: the physical emotional perception, our body physically respond. So let's
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  Speaker 3: do things to the body. Let's not just get to
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  Speaker 3: the cognitive. Let's just tell a person you're fine, you're
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  Speaker 3: in an office, you're not being chased by a line,
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  Speaker 3: and you're okay, Yeah, that doesn't work here. So what
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  Speaker 3: can we do physically to actually help clients? And there's
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  Speaker 3: something to that I think is just so theologically rich
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  Speaker 3: as well as to how many times, if not the
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  Speaker 3: nation of Israel or the Church is called to inhabit
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  Speaker 3: embody space. Yeah, in sacrifice in temples, in the Lord's Supper,
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  Speaker 3: in Baptists, like all these liturgies that we recognize are
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  Speaker 3: very physically oriented in order to help us get beyond
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  Speaker 3: the physical, but not apart from the physical. And there's
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  Speaker 3: something that I think needs to be engaged there.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's interesting, Like one of the
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  Speaker 1: things I've tried to help people understand when I talk
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  Speaker 1: about what John Vervaki calls participatory knowing it's this sort
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  Speaker 1: of interaction between the agent and the arena that they're in.
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  Speaker 1: I'll talk about how how easy it is for us
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  Speaker 1: to tell the difference between a bath and a baptism. Right, So,
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  Speaker 1: a baptism, we can distinguish that clearly. You know, you're
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  Speaker 1: usually in front of a congregation, there's a pastor involved,
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  Speaker 1: there are words spoken, there are maybe there's music playing
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  Speaker 1: in the background. Right, there's someone who's physically dunking you
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  Speaker 1: under the water. Right, Like, there's all of these elements
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  Speaker 1: that you're actually participating in and as an embodied individual
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  Speaker 1: that make a baptism a baptism. It's not just immersion
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  Speaker 1: in water, Right, You wouldn't mistake it for a bath,
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  Speaker 1: which has a completely different setting is usually more individual
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  Speaker 1: and right off, soap and towels and those kind of things.
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  Speaker 1: But like, some of the elements are the same, but
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  Speaker 1: that you can clearly tell the difference. You could do
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  Speaker 1: the same thing with You wouldn't mistake a baptism for
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  Speaker 1: a cannon ball in a pool. Right There, there's all
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  Speaker 1: these things within our environment that cue us to this
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  Speaker 1: is special or this is one event and this is
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  Speaker 1: another event. In the same way you could say, you know,
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  Speaker 1: you go out to an Italian restaurant.
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  Speaker 2: You're having a little bread and a little wine. This
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  Speaker 2: is not communion.
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  Speaker 3: As good as good as that garlic bread maybe.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, yeah, thank you alive garden. This is not
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  Speaker 1: communion bread and wine. Right, And so you just sit
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  Speaker 1: back and you kind of like, Okay, there's a there's
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  Speaker 1: a ritualistic element, a set of of elements within the
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  Speaker 1: environment that are helping us to understand that we've entered
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  Speaker 1: a different space, that we're doing something of different significance,
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  Speaker 1: and that this actually has more of a storied or
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  Speaker 1: symbolic meaning to it.
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  Speaker 2: But that's an embodied understanding. It requires that environment for
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  Speaker 2: that to be the case.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and almost to your point. I mean, I love
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  Speaker 3: the baptism construct. Part of the other reality of a
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  Speaker 3: baptism that helps clarify that it's a baptism is the
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  Speaker 3: embodied space with others. Yes, in contrast to a bath
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  Speaker 3: that is very individualistic in private, as it should be. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: the whole point of a baptism is a communal celebration
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  Speaker 3: of this person identifying with death and then being resurrected
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  Speaker 3: to life. We just had one last Sunday out at
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  Speaker 3: my local church and to see there are these moments
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  Speaker 3: where you're kind of waiting for that person to come
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  Speaker 3: up out of the water, and you can feel the
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  Speaker 3: excitement of people like yes, they start clapping, and you
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  Speaker 3: just see the response of the community, which is a
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  Speaker 3: right respect the Lord's Supper as well. As much as
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  Speaker 3: I take up these physical elements, that is not olive garden,
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  Speaker 3: but it is in the construct of her. As often
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  Speaker 3: as you eat the bread, drink the cup, you do
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  Speaker 3: so in a manner that helps me remember this truth
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  Speaker 3: about Jesus. But the whole point is that Paul's writing
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  Speaker 3: to a church, a community at Corinth that is expected
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  Speaker 3: to gather together, that I take this bread to use
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  Speaker 3: your point sometimes touching shoulders with people on either side,
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  Speaker 3: that I'm like, dude, give me a little space, like
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  Speaker 3: this is a little too close, and that's that's not
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  Speaker 3: comfortable all the time. If there's times I could take
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  Speaker 3: the Lord's Supper by myself, I'll be honest, I'd like
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  Speaker 3: to do that, right. But part of Paul's expectation is
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  Speaker 3: that you do this not just this way, but this
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  Speaker 3: way with others as well, which I think is pretty amazing.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, it does sort of feel though in many of
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  Speaker 1: at least in the churches that I've gone to, we're
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  Speaker 1: losing some of that ritual and you know, it becomes
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  Speaker 1: a little more casual. Oh okay, today's communion Sunday. We're
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  Speaker 1: just gonna go up and grab some stuff and come
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  Speaker 1: back to our seats, and yeah, we'll eat it all together.
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  Speaker 1: But it's not you know when I grew up, I
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  Speaker 1: grew up Lutheran, and you'd go up and you'd kneel
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  Speaker 1: on the thing in.
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  Speaker 2: The front, physically kneil.
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  Speaker 1: You'd physically kneel, you know, you're facing the front right Like.
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  Speaker 1: There's a whole context to it, and I think informs it,
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  Speaker 1: and so you know, we can think of it this
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  Speaker 1: in a very similar way. It's like if you know,
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  Speaker 1: a five year old, you know, gets into the which
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  Speaker 1: I have a five year old now, and I could
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  Speaker 1: actually see her doing this.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 1: Let's say let's say she, you know, gets into the
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  Speaker 1: church room where they're keeping the little bread wafers.
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  Speaker 2: And the you know, and the grape juice, and she's
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  Speaker 2: just challenged down on that. We're not calling that communion either.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you could see you know again, if you
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  Speaker 1: if I just use her an analogy, she you know,
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  Speaker 1: is running around the baptismal and falls in not a baptism.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: So there's all these different aspects to it that make
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: it into something unique and special. And I think what
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: maybe we haven't wrestled to the ground yet, is why
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  Speaker 1: is it that those sorts of rituals are ever important?
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  Speaker 1: Like why is it that that something like a baptism
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  Speaker 1: has such meaning to a congregation? You know, the cynical
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: person might say, well, it's just because you're adding to
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: the roles and now you're getting more gifts.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Come in or whatever. Right, Yeah, you know you're you're
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: hitting a number that you're aiming for.
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  Speaker 1: That's really not it. It's a celebration of a new life.
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  Speaker 1: It's a celebration of someone who is committing to the
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: process of discipleship. It's it's all those other aspects. But
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  Speaker 1: I think that as we if we lose these, or
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  Speaker 1: to the extent that we have lost these, it feels
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  Speaker 1: like life just takes on a.
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  Speaker 2: I'll use this analogy. You'll understand this, maybe some people won't.
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  Speaker 1: There's an old game called Super Mario Brothers Classic, right,
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  Speaker 1: and it always had levels, Right, You'd get to the
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: end of the level and the little guy would jump
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: on the flag and he'd slide down and then you
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: go to the next level. But if you can envision
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: playing Mario Brothers without that, where it's just one really
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: super long level that you're having to run through and
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: there's no there's never a time where you jump on
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: the flag and you end.
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  Speaker 2: It's just all one thing.
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  Speaker 1: That's sort of what I feel like we've we're producing.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Without these tools, there's no punctuation, right, there's no sacred
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: moment in life. It all just starts to bleed together. Yeah,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: does that make sense?
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  Speaker 2: Ben?
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  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I just had flashbacks of both Super
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: Mario Brothers and dun Hunt all at the same time. Yeah,
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: because you're absolutely right. It was those Yeah, it was
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: those moments when you, I mean, think again on that flag.
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  Speaker 3: It helped punctuate both the the reality of the here
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: and now and the anticipation of what's next. But it
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: gave me those that the constant rhythm of that Yeah, Oh,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: there's something that there the reality of. I think even
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: what the Lord's Supper, for instance, does right the ritual
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: that the rhythm of the Lord's supper. For as often
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: as you eat the bread, drink the cup, you do
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: so you remember what he did until he comes. So
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: like in this present moment, I reached back into the
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: past thousands of years ago about what this man Jesus
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: did on the cross, but also in this present moment,
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  Speaker 3: I look forward to the return of the King. Like
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  Speaker 3: I engage with all tenses, but I do so in
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: a very time oriented, space oriented weekly And I think
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  Speaker 3: you're right. It is a concern of mine that we
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: are missing out in some of that ritual communal living
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: like that, that purposeful day in, day out, week in
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: week out, that builds that remembrance, lived reality and eschatological hope.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: When my wife and I moved here to Columbia, South Carolina,
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: we started looking for churches, and in itself was kind
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: of a new thing for us. We've been going to
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: a church for twenty plus years, so this was our
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: first chance. And I remember thinking, particularly at some of
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: the churches that were how can I say this, Well,
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: we're constantly like a movie theater. Yeah, and listen, they
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: are great, great musicians, great preachers, but the whole time
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: you go in, lights are dark. Yeah, and all the
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: attention is up on the stage. And my wife was
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: the one who really helped me see this is like
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: it felt like we were at a concert every time.
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: And not that I'm opposed to the style necessarily, but
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: the biggest dilemma is we couldn't see everyone else beside us.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: It actually wasn't. What was the concern wasn't necessarily up
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: on stage. It was the concern that we couldn't see
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: the people that we were worshiping with. We felt the
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: loss of connection and the weekly rhythm of what the
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: church should be. The church we go to now has
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: great windows and we're like, yes, we get to see
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: people every Sunday because there was something that we felt
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: was so necessary. As much as I want to hear
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: the preaching of God's word and I want to have
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: a community of the saints and I want to have
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: fellowship and prayer and singing, I want to do it
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: with people in a way that helps me recognize why
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: I'm doing this as well and clinically. That's one of
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: the struggles I'm trying to deal with with my clients
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: is as much as I want to work with them individually, Yeah,
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: what often I need to do is actually open up
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: their abilities to engage communally. Yeah, I'm going to work
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: with you individually. But if you think this is actually
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: where health comes just you and me sitting together in
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: a room talking for forty five minutes, you got to
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: put this into practice. And the best place to put
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: this in practice for Christians is within the context search
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: for non Christians and some communal aspect that gives those
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: regular rhythms of ritual and engagement and ultimately for community.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: There's something to that, to the punctuation we're you know,
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think your point about the communion looking back,
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: looking forward, being in the moment all at the same time. Yeah,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: we're sort of creatures in time, like part of our
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: embody and is an experience of time, and and so
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: we need to build in this rhythm of some some
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: sort of sacred time, something that disrupts everything else we're doing.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: And if I had to put a finger on and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think this is exactly what you're saying, but
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: like from my perspective, if I had to put a
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: finger on why sometimes that sort of rock concert sort
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: of church and I mean I've been to churches where
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: they actually played like nickelback.
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: From the front, and you're just like, right, like what
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: is happening? But you know, to put my finger on.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: It's like there's no interruption in the week, right, especially.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Right it's all screen, you know what I mean.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: It's like I can watch I can, you know, watch
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: Netflix all week and then go to church and basically
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: get a Netflix type performance.
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: I can, you know, I can.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: I go to work and I do my thing at
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: work and it's these sort of superficial conversations or whatever
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: it is, you know, and then I go to church
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: and it's kind of the same thing. Right, I'm constantly
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: being entertained. My attention is always what people want. And
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: so now here's what it is.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: And there's no you know, to use the sports and alley,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: there's no change up. It's all fastballs.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: You just kind of get used to it and you're
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: just like, okay, whatever, I guess this is all there is.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: But we do need that change up, like it's got
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: to be in the mix because I think as creatures
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: in time, time just starts to grind on us. If
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: we don't punctuate it with something sacred, it all becomes
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: sort of good banal.
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: And I imagine, I imagine that's part of what even
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: the preacher was saying in Ecclesiastes, right, like there's a
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: time for dancing, there's a time for morning, there's a
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: time for picking up stones and late, like he talks
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: about time in so many constructs, and that he has
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: also put eternity in your hearts. So like in the
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: very same I think, is chapter three right where he
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: talks about both realities there's times for and he's put
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: this other thing called eternity into both and reality that
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: were meant to have sacred punctuated realities that help us
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: realize it's not supposed to be. This is linear engagement,
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: like he said, and I will say coming out of COVID,
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: this is probably one of the biggest, one of the
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: biggest issues I continue to deal with with a lot
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: of my clients. COVID gave understandably people of the ability
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: just to turn on my TV Sunday morning and watch
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: the message. Now, for whatever your response or politics may
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: be as to whether that was right or wrong, it
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: was the reality for the vast majority of the world
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: during that time. What that then opened up was the
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: reality that even when I don't have to do it
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: because of social distancing, whatever is, I can do it.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: And if I can do it on Sunday morning for
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: my couch, what prevents me from having that same mindset
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: even there as well? Where like you said, I can
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: watch Netflix at one channel, I can turn on ESPN
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: with the other channel and look, there's my church on
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: the other channel, and it's all on the same level.
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: But we trick ourselves into thinking, yeah, but I got church.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: Like I heard the preacher, I saw him saying, I
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: actually even pray. I put my head down when they prayed,
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: And so I did church. And there's something about that
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: that continues to falsely advertise as good enough. And what
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: it's doing is it's missing out on the actual embodiment
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: of space and time with others that is such an
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: important aspect of human flourishing, not just Christianity, but just
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: human flourishing in general.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, I think I can think we
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: even if we took this out of a church context,
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: which maybe this isn't the best analogy, but I mean,
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: I can remember my parents being in a bowling league.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like back in the day, and they turned me
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: out to the bowling alley.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Whenever we go to the bowling alley, they had this
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: like horrible little diner out there, and so I'd get
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: you know, what I thought was a great burger and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: fries and then a Shirley Temple.
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: Oh man.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like, this is this is great. And it
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: was weekly.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Every week we're doing this, like and I never got
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: tired of the burger and fries. I'd actually look forward
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: to it and I'm like, no way, it's bowling league night,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: Like this is awesome, right, And you know this was
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: this was an era before even game boys or anything like.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: That came out.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: So I'm literally sitting there watching bowling and enjoying myself
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: because this is just the cadence of life. It's every week,
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: this is where I am, this is what I'm doing.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: It was a ritual and I got to spend time.
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: Like there were other kids there that I never got
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: to see or whatever, you know, and so like it
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: had this sort of meaning to it because it was
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: regular and it was different.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And I think.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: That that's sort of part of what we need the
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: church to sort of rethink because it does give this
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: sort of of if the church could do it, It
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: provides that sort of meaningful, different experience that comes along every.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Week and gives us a true departure.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: I don't want to say break because I don't feel
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: like it's yeah, I don't want to frame.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Church is like a break from my normal life.
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: It breaks into my normal life and it reminds me
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: that there's more here than sometimes I realize that the
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: week can kind of grind this out of me. But
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: the reality is that life is sacred, and this is
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: where we remember that. This is where we get re
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: energized that life is sacred. This is where we start
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: to understand why life is sacred. And if it's just
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: a continuation of the same that gets really old, really
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: fast and kind of go back to some of our
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: previous conversations. It creates an existential anxiety because if I'm
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: already frustrated with the way the world is going and
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: this place sounds exactly actly the same as everything else
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: I'm encountering, what hope do I really have?
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: Ye?
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And and that's such a good thought. The we
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: need to remember the framing of the church is not
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: this yeah, break from normality. In fact, it helps it
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: helps clarify, focus, uh re engage with what is normality
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: between the rest of the week in a way that
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: the rhythms that the habits of my heart, you know,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: to kind of put some of the kind of like
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: what uh James K. A. Smith kind of talks about
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: those We we develop our affections through those rituals, right,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: The rituals actually help clarify and focus some of what
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: we what we need. And it's done in the context
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: of others. That's the hard part because I've met some
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: of those others and they've met me, and we we
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: we know too well, right, But those others are not
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: the easiest. And so it's so much easier if I
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: could just retreat to myself, retreat to my space, my time,
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: and you know, have meted out engagement in very if
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: possible digital formats as much as possible, rather than actual,
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: real lived practices together. And yet the the hardship is
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: worth the effort because it actually forms better affections for
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: better tasting meals beyond Shirley temples and burgers.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, when I.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: Do think it creates you know, we mentioned in a
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: previous episodes like the church is this non anxious presence, right,
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: And I think part of at least what I mean
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: by that is is saying the church has an.
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: Ownership of itself.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: Right, then it's now responding to God's claim on it,
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: as opposed to trying to be something.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: It's not. You come to church, it's it is what
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: it is, right.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: And I don't care about the worship style and all
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: that kind of stuff like that's not what I'm talking about.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: But but it's also not a performance to you. It's
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: not a moment where you should be entertained. If you're entertained,
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: that can be a byproduct, I suppose, but it should
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: have some different substance. It should have some different cadence.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: It should have some real meat to it, right, that
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: embeds you back into the symbolic world that you're always
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: a part of anyway, yep, but that the outside.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: World tends to drive out of us through the week,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that again why it refocuses When my family
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: and I lived in Iowa for about twenty years, yeah,
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: and one of our neighbors behind us was a huge
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Iowa Hawkeye fan, so University of Iowa, and he we
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: started getting into it. But he's like, no, no, you don't
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: really understand Hawkeye football until you go until you go
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: to the stadium. And we went with it. He had
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: season tickets, so he said, listen, I gotta let you know,
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: we do the whole nine yards when we go to
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: these things. He got up at like four thirty with
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: his get there. First thing he does is he makes
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: steaks and drinks. And then as we get to the game,
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: we have to touch this left foot of this statue
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: and the right hand goes on a helmet and you
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: got to get your you know, vestments on, I mean
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: your jersey, and like it was religious. It was a
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: religious experience, right, and every home game he does this.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: He said for him though, this is this is his engagement,
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: this is his this is his church of sorts, right,
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: because it gave him a sense of refocusing. But it
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: wasn't enough just to turn on his TV at home,
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: which he can do. He has you know, big twelve
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: football he can turned on. For him. It was the
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: engagement of the food, the liturgy, the clothing. There's even
• 30:06
  Speaker 3: one point. Iowa is famous for what's called the Iowa
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: wave where the university hospital is overlooking the stadium and
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: they bring all the sick kids out to the windows,
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: and at halftime, everyone in the stadium turns around and
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: waves at the kids. It's one of the most beautiful things.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: And my friend says, I know it's not much, but
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: I get to give back a little. Yeah, that little
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: physical movement to him to do that with all those
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: forty fifty thousand people. He's not under no delusion that
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: he's solving cancer for those kids or anything like that,
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: but he knows it's something that he can both be
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: part of, find joy in and give good too. I'm thinking,
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: if they can do that at a football game, my goodness,
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: how much more can the local church be that place?
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: And to your point, take the responsibility of providing a
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: place to do that, not just as a spectator, but
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: as an actual member that is contributing to that reality.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you were in Chicago, I'm sure
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: they have it in other talents, but it was the
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: fourth phase, you know, offense, defense, special teams.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: And the fans and the fourth phase. Right, and as
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: corny and cheesy as that is, you got it too.
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: You get into it, right, you go to the game.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: You're freezing, you know.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: I mean I remember the first Chicago Bearts game I
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: went to and somebody told me, no, you got to
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: take a piece of cardboard to put your feet on.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: It helps your feet not be cold. I'm like, no,
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: it doesn't, it doesn't at all. But I mean, you're
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: the fourth phase. You got to be there.
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: Yep.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that's a really good analogy. And
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I think that as we think about sort of faith
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: and mental health, this just needs to be a component
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: of what happens.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: There has to be this.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Moment where you're not just playing Mario all the way
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: through without being able to jump on the flag. You're
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: not just you know, watching football on television while you
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: you know, do your laundry or whatever. Right, these are
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: those sort of it keeps everything mundane. Yeah, And I
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: think what we need is a moment uh in every
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: week where the world is reframed as symbolic and meaningful
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: and theological for us.
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: Yea.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: And and that can set the stage then for us
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: to move out into Monday through Saturday in a different
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: way with a different perspective.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Not that it'll solve all of our problems, but it.
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: Does give us that thing that is going to provide
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: us with a different depth of meaning.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that that resilience that I need to then
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: confront the other realities of the day. That this is
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: not get rid of those dilemmas, those issues, those problems, Right,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: but it gives me in the true sense of the
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: word encouragement. It gives me courage. And I need that
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: re encouragement. I need I need that that communal context
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: that says, Okay, yeah, I'm in this, but I'm not
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: in this alone. That to me is such a powerful message.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: This does not diminish the problems, but it does share
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: the burden kind of like what Paul says in Galatians, right,
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: that there are some burdens that are pretty big, but
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: that's why we have this thing called the church. Are
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: we providing a facilitation where we can be encouraged to
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: bear the burdens of each other in the ways that
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: actually help.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and definitely in that embodied fashion. Yeah, any problem,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, you and I are barely in the same place.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I mean, we've been in the same place at the
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: same time, we've actually met, but we're very seldom in
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: the same place at the same time. And so it's
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: great to be able to have these kind of conversations.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: But if this is all we ever did, yeah, and
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: you're just completely isolated from anyone else, it's not going
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: to work now. And so there has to be this
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: embodied piece where there is there is just something about
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: out that being in the presence of others that is
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: really gonna help. I think with the way that we feel,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: with the way that we act, the way that we think,
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: that that embodiment is crucial.
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: And I know that's your heart with I've talked to
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: you about why you're doing these podcasts. I know whenever
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: I take these invitations, I love doing it because I'm
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: hopeful for more. Yeah, whoever's hearing this, whoever's watching this,
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: my hope is be encouraged by this. But what will
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: this activate in you in ways that'll actually push you
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: to what's better?
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: Great is listening to a podcast at one point five
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: speed is because let's be honest, that's what we're doing
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: most of the time. I gotta get through it. My hope,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: Like my clients, I want counseling to be helpful, but
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: I want it to be moving you towards something better.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that is my conviction is the
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: local church has to become more of the centerpiece of
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: our lives and less of a marginal and voluntary piece
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: of it. And it's awesome that sort of embodiment aspect
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: that we're talking about here and we'll talk about in
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: the next episode is just it's crucial to that because
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: the local church is the closest thing you that's the
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: that is the physical manifestation of the Body of Christ
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: in your area. Yeah, it's the one you engage with,
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: and so we've got to attend to it. But this
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: has been Great's uh, let's close it off there and
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: we'll come back and we'll talk a little bit more
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: about embody.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: This embodied the leg of the.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Stool and maybe address some issues of loneliness and how
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: embodiment can actually oddly solve loneliness issue.
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so very good.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks Ben, thanks everybody for listening, and we'll catch
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: on the next episode of Thinking Christian.
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: Take care.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: I just want to take a second to thank the
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: team at Life Audio for their partnership with us on
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: the Thinking Christian podcast. If you go to lifeaudio dot com,
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: you'll find dozens of other faith centered podcasts in their network.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: They've got shows about prayer, Bible study, parenting, and yeah,