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Interview Only w/ Cobi Blumenfeld-Gantz - How To Navigate The Medicare Maze · The Chuck ToddCast

0:00
Speaker 1: This episode of the Chuck Todd cast is brought to
0:02
Speaker 1: you by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about Medicare
0:06
Speaker 1: is somebody quietly trying to steer you somewhere. And you're
0:11
Speaker 1: skeptical of that, as you should be. I get it.
0:14
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a federal lawsuit going on right now
0:17
Speaker 1: over exactly this. Companies that branded themselves as unbiased while
0:21
Speaker 1: allegedly pointing people toward whatever would pay them the most
0:25
Speaker 1: as some sort of broker. So if your default is
0:28
Speaker 1: to distrust everyone in this space, honestly, I get it.
0:31
Speaker 1: I'm a bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole
0:34
Speaker 1: reason I want to tell you about Chapter. They're independent
0:37
Speaker 1: Medicare advisors whose entire model is that their advisors are
0:41
Speaker 1: not paid to push any one plan. They're just trying
0:45
Speaker 1: to help. Yes, there's compensation that goes with it. but
0:47
Speaker 1: it's across the board is what they're trying to do.
0:51
Speaker 1: At the end of the day, they're advocating for you.
0:52
Speaker 1: They're not the insurance companies themselves. They're an actual person
0:56
Speaker 1: who actually goes through your doctors, your prescriptions, your needs,
1:01
Speaker 1: and then compares them to every single plan available to
1:04
Speaker 1: find the best one that will work for you and
1:06
Speaker 1: hopefully save you a couple dollars too. And here's the
1:09
Speaker 1: part that sets chapter apart. They don't disappear once you've
1:14
Speaker 1: been in They will keep advocating for you. They're kind
1:17
Speaker 1: of like almost like a concierge service. You're just there.
1:19
Speaker 1: I need help. You're like customer service. You know, the plan,
1:22
Speaker 1: you know, help me navigate this again. So you ever
1:24
Speaker 1: get hit with a wrongful medical bill, they'll help you
1:28
Speaker 1: fight it. They want to stay an advocate for you
1:31
Speaker 1: even after you've done this. So look, I get it.
1:34
Speaker 1: I think there's all sorts of space. You see a
1:38
Speaker 1: lot of people are throwing themselves in this healthcare space.
1:41
Speaker 1: What I like about these chapter folks, I've spent time
1:44
Speaker 1: with them. This is a very transparent organization. It is
1:48
Speaker 1: Medicare and all of its affiliated stuff can be very confusing.
1:53
Speaker 1: The whole point of this is to make this easier
1:56
Speaker 1: and less confusing. OK, so look, take the skepticism you
2:00
Speaker 1: already have in all of this, point it at your
2:02
Speaker 1: own plan for 20 minutes. It's free. There's no pressure.
2:06
Speaker 1: And then call chapter today at 980-734-4200. So my guest
2:17
Speaker 1: today is a co-founder of one of my sponsors, Chapter.
2:21
Speaker 1: You have probably heard at least some of my content
2:26
Speaker 1: being sponsored by Chapter. And Chapter is a company that
2:31
Speaker 1: really is designed to help people navigate the Medicare system.
2:35
Speaker 1: And if any of you are of a certain age
2:38
Speaker 1: or have parents of a certain age, you have come
2:40
Speaker 1: to learn that it ain't easy. And if you get
2:43
Speaker 1: the right policy, it's fantastic. You end up in the
2:47
Speaker 1: wrong one, not so good. And one of the things
2:49
Speaker 1: that I do want to make a priority here is
2:53
Speaker 1: I have worked really hard. I don't want any of
2:55
Speaker 1: my content behind a paywall, but I just don't want
2:59
Speaker 1: any kind of sponsor. And we do get to know
3:02
Speaker 1: sponsors here. And I think it's important for you to
3:05
Speaker 1: know who these folks are and spend a little time
3:09
Speaker 1: with them. So joining me now is Kobe Blumenfeld-Gantz, a
3:12
Speaker 1: co-founder of Chapter. And believe it or not, Chapter is
3:16
Speaker 1: not that old of a company. And in many ways,
3:18
Speaker 1: it's a company that is here because of technology in
3:24
Speaker 1: some ways. Kobe, let's start there. Fill in some of
3:29
Speaker 1: the blanks. You heard my introduction. Tell me what I
3:34
Speaker 1: left out that you wish I hadn't.
3:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. We started
3:39
Speaker 2: the company a few years ago after seeing my parents
3:42
Speaker 2: go through the Medicare process and just have a really
3:44
Speaker 2: tough time. It took them many months, a lot of faxes,
3:50
Speaker 2: a lot of going in person to the social security office,
3:52
Speaker 2: which from my perspective was just like, what is going
3:54
Speaker 2: on here? And ultimately they ended up on a plan
3:58
Speaker 2: that charged them a lot more than it needed to.
4:00
Speaker 2: And my mom is now subject to late Part D
4:03
Speaker 2: enrollment penalties. which is just unfortunate because she got bad
4:07
Speaker 2: guidance and that could have been prevented. So I used
4:11
Speaker 2: to work at a big technology company. I used to
4:13
Speaker 2: do a lot of work with the US government supporting
4:16
Speaker 2: lots of different missions that the government has from military
4:19
Speaker 2: intelligence to federal healthcare. And just coming from a data
4:24
Speaker 2: and technology background, thought that the way that people have
4:27
Speaker 2: to go through Medicare today just makes no sense. The
4:30
Speaker 2: technology is bad. The data is bad. The incentives are misaligned.
4:34
Speaker 2: And I didn't see a company or a way for people,
4:38
Speaker 2: a company that was really supporting seniors in navigating this process.
4:41
Speaker 2: And so I wanted to try to start that.
4:44
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny you say that. So my mother,
4:45
Speaker 1: of course, she's, I'm not going to say her age
4:49
Speaker 1: because she's a listener, right? I'm not going to do
4:52
Speaker 1: that to her, but she's on Medicare and she got...
4:55
Speaker 1: she got lucky. She got some good advice early and got,
4:58
Speaker 1: I think it's the schedule F, right? That's the one.
5:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
5:02
Speaker 1: That that's this magic plan. And I'm like, how did
5:05
Speaker 1: she goes? I don't know. Somebody told me F is the,
5:08
Speaker 1: what I needed to be focused on. And she, you know,
5:11
Speaker 1: sort of did. And I'm thankful for it now. She's
5:13
Speaker 1: very happy. It's always been a pretty good, pretty good policy,
5:17
Speaker 1: but she didn't have a lot of knowledge. And so,
5:21
Speaker 1: you know, I was thinking about what's the best way to,
5:24
Speaker 1: for us to have a conversation that is productive for
5:28
Speaker 1: the listener. And it is sort of like, let's start with,
5:32
Speaker 1: you're 61 years old. Let's assume someone on here is 61.
5:36
Speaker 1: You know that at 62, that I believe, right? Correct
5:39
Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. 62, you can start to buy
5:41
Speaker 1: into Medicare. 65. You still have to wait till 65.
5:45
Speaker 1: I thought you could do some early. You can't do
5:47
Speaker 1: it early at 62.
5:48
Speaker 2: That's social security. Yeah.
5:49
Speaker 1: That is, okay. So let's, somebody's in their early 60s.
5:55
Speaker 1: Let's say it's their last year of private insurance. They
5:58
Speaker 1: know Medicare is coming. Let's start the preparatory process. Give
6:04
Speaker 1: me how you would advise people how to prepare for
6:07
Speaker 1: that transition from private health insurance to Medicare.
6:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, to your point, people should start getting educated a
6:15
Speaker 2: few years before. So if they are 61, 62, it's
6:18
Speaker 2: a good time to start learning the basics just to
6:22
Speaker 2: familiarize yourself. You don't need to do anything until you're
6:25
Speaker 2: about 64 and a half, a few months before your
6:28
Speaker 2: 65th birthday. But really the key things to think about
6:32
Speaker 2: are what are the healthcare needs you might have, not
6:35
Speaker 2: just next year, but over the next few years. So
6:39
Speaker 2: are there specific doctors you care about being able to see?
6:42
Speaker 2: Are there particular procedures or health systems you want to
6:45
Speaker 2: go to? Are there certain prescriptions you're going to need
6:48
Speaker 2: to take? And what type of flexibility do you care about?
6:53
Speaker 2: Are you willing to have a little bit less flexibility
6:55
Speaker 2: and pay less? Or do you want to pay a
6:57
Speaker 2: little bit more to have Maximum flexibility.
6:59
Speaker 1: You mean by flexibility, just a wider variety of doctor networks?
7:04
Speaker 2: Wider variety of doctor networks, not requiring a referral to
7:08
Speaker 2: see a specialist, having more covered when you do go
7:14
Speaker 2: get healthcare, as opposed to paying as you go. These
7:18
Speaker 2: are just some of the different things to think about. Really,
7:22
Speaker 2: Medicare advisors like Chapter and others exist. to help people
7:26
Speaker 2: with this. It's funny you mentioned your mother was not
7:29
Speaker 2: particularly knowledgeable. I really don't think anyone in this country,
7:32
Speaker 2: unless it is your profession, really understands how the system goes.
7:35
Speaker 2: And frankly, most Medicare advisors don't understand how this works either.
7:38
Speaker 2: But I was listening to a podcast a while ago,
7:44
Speaker 2: over a year ago, but a Stanford professor of health
7:47
Speaker 2: economics was doing a podcast on just a health insurance
7:50
Speaker 2: system and the healthcare system, not Medicare specifically. And he
7:53
Speaker 2: made a side comment that even he, as a professor
7:57
Speaker 2: of health economics at Stanford, does not understand how to
8:00
Speaker 2: sign up for Medicare. So it is very challenging for
8:03
Speaker 2: most people.
8:05
Speaker 1: So I think most people think, well, Medicare, everything's covered.
8:11
Speaker 1: And then you get Medicare and you find out, and
8:14
Speaker 1: a lot of people go, oh, no. A lot, you know,
8:18
Speaker 1: you know, yes, a lot of stuff is covered maybe
8:21
Speaker 1: in the basic policy that compared to other basic policies
8:26
Speaker 1: if you're younger, but less is covered than you think,
8:31
Speaker 1: which I guess some people might say is a Congress problem.
8:35
Speaker 1: But what is the basic, you know, what is the
8:38
Speaker 1: shock that you find that most new Medicare applicants find
8:43
Speaker 1: out about when it comes to Medicare?
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Speaker 2: Most people assume, as you said, that Medicare is just
8:48
Speaker 2: kind of this thing that happens, you get it, and
8:50
Speaker 2: it's done. I wish that's how it worked. It's unfortunately
8:54
Speaker 2: not how it works. There's a lot of different parts
8:58
Speaker 2: of Medicare, but the simplest way to think about it
9:00
Speaker 2: is original Medicare, which is known as Parts A and B,
9:03
Speaker 2: covers up to 80% of medical expenses. But because 20%
9:08
Speaker 2: of medical expenses can be a lot, if you go
9:11
Speaker 2: to the hospital and it's 10, 20, $ 30, 000, 20% of
9:13
Speaker 2: that is bought. Most people get some type of supplemental coverage.
9:19
Speaker 2: And that supplemental coverage can take the form of Medicare Advantage,
9:22
Speaker 2: which you see a lot of ads for, or Medicare Supplement,
9:25
Speaker 2: or also known as Medigap. And that's what your mom has,
9:27
Speaker 2: a Medigap Plan.
9:29
Speaker 1: F.
9:30
Speaker 2: So those are the two different paths people can go
9:32
Speaker 2: down to really get the coverage that they should have. Yeah.
9:38
Speaker 1: No, no, no, go ahead, finish your thought.
9:40
Speaker 2: Those two plan types operate quite differently. A Medicare Advantage
9:44
Speaker 2: plan in many ways operates like the commercial health insurance
9:47
Speaker 2: plan most people have had when they've been employed through
9:51
Speaker 2: most of their lives. It usually has a provider network.
9:54
Speaker 2: So there are some doctors you can go to, some
9:56
Speaker 2: doctors are in network. There's sometimes some out of network coverage,
9:59
Speaker 2: sometimes less. There are specific prescriptions on formulary and different
10:02
Speaker 2: costs of those prescriptions. There are different hospitals that are
10:05
Speaker 2: in and out of network. You get some hearing, some dental,
10:08
Speaker 2: some vision, some other benefits that are partially subsidized. So
10:12
Speaker 2: if you want to get a hearing aid, they'll say,
10:15
Speaker 2: instead of paying cash pay price might be two, three,
10:18
Speaker 2: $ 4, 000 for a hearing aid, you can get it for
10:20
Speaker 2: one or $ 2, 000 through us. But again, you have to
10:22
Speaker 2: get a specific type of hearing aid from an audiologist
10:25
Speaker 2: that we recommend.
10:26
Speaker 1: I wanna ask about Medicare Advantage because there's cynic in
10:31
Speaker 1: me and it's always been my, a lot of people
10:34
Speaker 1: assume Medicare Advantage is run by the government and Medicare
10:38
Speaker 1: Advantage is a brand name that private insurance companies use
10:43
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest, I wish it weren't called Medicare
10:46
Speaker 1: Advantage because I do think it creates an expectation from
10:51
Speaker 1: the end user that, hey, this is a government policy
10:56
Speaker 1: when it is not, correct?
10:58
Speaker 2: That's right. I actually, I find, I take issue with
11:01
Speaker 2: the name Medicare Advantage less on the Medicare side and
11:03
Speaker 2: more on the Advantage side, in that it's not necessarily better.
11:08
Speaker 2: So that's my issue with it. But to your point,
11:11
Speaker 2: the way the Medicare Advantage programs are run by private
11:15
Speaker 2: insurance carriers, so all the insurance carriers we know, United, Atna, Anthem,
11:19
Speaker 2: They have their own Medicare Advantage plans. The government pays them,
11:23
Speaker 2: and it's known as value-based care or at-risk care. What
11:26
Speaker 2: happens is the government pays a given Medicare Advantage insurance
11:31
Speaker 2: carrier a fixed amount per person that they're covering, and
11:35
Speaker 2: it is up to the insurance carrier to manage that
11:39
Speaker 2: person's risk and that person's health below that cost. And
11:42
Speaker 2: any amount that they can do below that cost, they
11:46
Speaker 2: can take as margin, as profit. So that's what value-based
11:49
Speaker 2: care at risk care means. Medicare Advantage is a form
11:51
Speaker 2: of value-based care.
11:52
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's one of those though, where you wish,
11:56
Speaker 1: I mean, and this gets it to a philosophical, you know,
12:00
Speaker 1: which is who should be monitoring the value-based care, the
12:04
Speaker 1: patient or or the insurance company. And then when the
12:07
Speaker 1: insurance company's doing it, you don't feel as if there's
12:10
Speaker 1: concern that the patient isn't coming first.
12:12
Speaker 2: Certainly, and those are very valid concerns. And we've seen
12:16
Speaker 2: a lot of news stories over the past few years
12:18
Speaker 2: about prior auth denials. There was one news story a
12:22
Speaker 2: few months ago. There was an investigation into a couple
12:25
Speaker 2: insurance carriers, and what they found was most prior auth
12:30
Speaker 2: requests are denied. Of those denials, when they are appealed,
12:36
Speaker 2: they're almost all approved. All it is saying is the
12:40
Speaker 2: insurance carrier is default denying you and just making it
12:44
Speaker 2: harder for you to get the procedure that you need.
12:47
Speaker 1: We wonder why health insurance companies are so unpopular. Right, exactly.
12:54
Speaker 2: It's hard for a lot of reasons. It's not just
12:56
Speaker 2: the insurance carrier's fault, to be clear. It is a
12:58
Speaker 2: really Frankenstein system that's very complicated and they control a
13:02
Speaker 2: lot of it, but they are operating within a system
13:04
Speaker 2: and regime that they don't control entirely themselves, but there's
13:08
Speaker 2: a lot they can do better, certainly.
13:11
Speaker 1: With these Medicare Advantage policies, Who's regulating them? Does the
13:16
Speaker 1: federal government regulate it or is it back being regulated
13:18
Speaker 1: by state insurance industry?
13:20
Speaker 2: Great question. So Medicare Advantage is regulated by CMS, by
13:23
Speaker 2: the federal government. It is regulated by CMS. Under HHS, yes.
13:28
Speaker 2: So they regulate Medicare Advantage. Medicare Supplement, to your point,
13:33
Speaker 2: is regulated at the state level. State departments of insurance
13:36
Speaker 2: or departments of finance, depending on how the state has
13:38
Speaker 2: set it up, regulate Medicare Supplement carriers. So it is
13:41
Speaker 2: a totally different regime.
13:46
Speaker 1: There's a part of what you guys do that some
13:49
Speaker 1: people will say, how come the federal government doesn't do this?
13:52
Speaker 1: Why isn't this just, and as a tech guy, I'm
13:56
Speaker 1: sure that's a question you've probably asked yourself.
13:59
Speaker 2: Exactly. If the federal government did it, we would be
14:01
Speaker 2: in a different business, which would be great. There's a
14:03
Speaker 2: lot of things we can help seniors with. The federal
14:07
Speaker 2: government does a couple of things. They do have a
14:09
Speaker 2: Medicare.gov website. They do have a 1-800-Medicare call center. The
14:13
Speaker 2: challenge is with any government-provided service, it's usually not going
14:18
Speaker 2: to be very good. And so they're not going to
14:21
Speaker 2: have the best people. They're not going to have the
14:22
Speaker 2: best technology. They're not going to have the best support.
14:27
Speaker 1: I'll be honest. I'm sure certain people are going, why
14:29
Speaker 1: don't they have the best technology? That's a much broader question. Right,
14:33
Speaker 1: I know, I know. We're not solving that here, yeah.
14:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so I worked at Palantir for a
14:38
Speaker 2: long time and I built technology for the government. So
14:40
Speaker 2: happy to talk about that if you're curious. I think
14:43
Speaker 2: there are a couple of reasons why the government is
14:45
Speaker 2: quite bad at using technology. I think one is that
14:49
Speaker 2: the procurement, it's very boring, but the procurement process to
14:53
Speaker 2: buy technology is very antiquated.
14:56
Speaker 1: Oh, it's agency to agency. I mean, what's interesting about
15:00
Speaker 1: it is, And this gets a nut, we're gonna go
15:04
Speaker 1: down rabbit holes here and I wanna try to avoid it,
15:06
Speaker 1: but let me, I'll just quickly do cybersecurity. I went
15:09
Speaker 1: deep into this when I was covering cybersecurity for a
15:12
Speaker 1: bit of time, which is, it's both a feature and
15:19
Speaker 1: a bug. The fact that the technology is not uniform,
15:24
Speaker 1: the fact that the procurement procedure is not uniform is
15:28
Speaker 1: actually good for security. but it's bad for consumers. The trade-off,
15:35
Speaker 1: the efficiency that you might get would also potentially supercharge fraud,
15:42
Speaker 1: which is something that they're also going to Is that
15:45
Speaker 1: what you ran into when you worked as a contractor
15:49
Speaker 1: on the other end?
15:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, in some cases, definitely. I think the Different parts
15:56
Speaker 2: of the federal government have gotten a lot better. DOD,
15:58
Speaker 2: Department of Defense or Department of War, has actually gotten
16:01
Speaker 2: a lot better at working with newer technology companies and
16:04
Speaker 2: getting good technology into the hands of the warfighter, as
16:07
Speaker 2: it were. It's certainly not perfect, but it is a
16:10
Speaker 2: lot better. I think it's better because we've had this
16:14
Speaker 2: existential risk from China to force us to be better.
16:17
Speaker 2: I think throughout the rest of the government, we haven't
16:19
Speaker 2: actually had that revolution to make it much better for
16:23
Speaker 2: the government to buy and work with other technology companies.
16:27
Speaker 2: I think it's been a lot slower throughout the rest
16:29
Speaker 2: of the government. When I was working on the other side,
16:34
Speaker 2: directly with the government, It's not just the procurement process.
16:38
Speaker 2: It's also, you know, the government is a very large,
16:41
Speaker 2: slow-moving organization, and there's bureaucracy by design. So it's going
16:44
Speaker 2: to take a lot of time. There's going to be
16:46
Speaker 2: a lot of checks and balances, and there's a reason
16:49
Speaker 2: that the government doesn't run like a company.
16:52
Speaker 1: Well, as I always say, they have to be a service.
16:54
Speaker 1: You know, I joke, you know, when people complain about
16:57
Speaker 1: the postal service, oh, it should be run like a business. Well,
17:01
Speaker 1: it's not a business. It's a service, and you've got
17:03
Speaker 1: to deliver mail to rural Alaska. And if you were
17:06
Speaker 1: doing a business, you'd say, hmm, that isn't cost effective
17:09
Speaker 1: to deliver mail to rural Alaska. We're going to just
17:12
Speaker 1: give you mail once a week and we're going to
17:14
Speaker 1: ship it. And it's easy to do to a private customer.
17:17
Speaker 1: But when you at the federal government, everybody has to
17:21
Speaker 1: be treated the same.
17:23
Speaker 2: Right.
17:23
Speaker 1: The government can't do that. They can't pick and choose
17:26
Speaker 1: which customers they don't want, which is both good for
17:30
Speaker 1: the average person. but it does make creating efficiencies very difficult, correct?
17:36
Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And this is, again, quite philosophical, but
17:42
Speaker 2: our bureaucracy was set up to be slow moving. That
17:45
Speaker 2: is a feature, not a.
17:47
Speaker 1: Oh, I say this all the time. Our constitutional republic,
17:52
Speaker 1: we are set up to not do things whipsaw, because
17:57
Speaker 1: stability is always what our founders prioritized. And with stability
18:04
Speaker 1: comes impatience sometimes.
18:06
Speaker 2: Yes, slowness and there are trade-offs. In most cases, I
18:10
Speaker 2: think it is correct that this is how it works.
18:15
Speaker 2: Of course, I wish the government were more efficient in
18:17
Speaker 2: a lot of ways. I wish they had better technology,
18:19
Speaker 2: trying to help them get better technology in a lot
18:21
Speaker 2: of ways, but I don't think the government will magically
18:25
Speaker 2: in Medicare or any regime just wake up and have
18:28
Speaker 2: 10x better technology tomorrow. It's just unfortunately not going to happen.
18:30
Speaker 1: So walk me through what you what you what is
18:33
Speaker 1: what is supposed to be the idealized experience for somebody
18:36
Speaker 1: on chapter? Yeah.
18:37
Speaker 2: So when people have Medicare questions, when they're figuring out
18:40
Speaker 2: if they need to sign up, when to sign up,
18:42
Speaker 2: how to sign up, they give us a call. They
18:45
Speaker 2: can schedule a time via our website and get an
18:49
Speaker 2: appointment or they can just.
18:50
Speaker 1: Is it always a human being or is how automated
18:53
Speaker 1: are you?
18:54
Speaker 2: It is always a human being interacting with the customer directly.
19:00
Speaker 2: On occasion, we will use different AI to help scheduling
19:03
Speaker 2: or to help with admin tasks or to help get
19:07
Speaker 2: an answer faster. But for the core, I have questions
19:11
Speaker 2: at Medicare and I need to sign up for a plan,
19:12
Speaker 2: that is always a human being. There are actually times
19:17
Speaker 2: when we could be automating that away, but we've decided
19:19
Speaker 2: not to. We build a lot of AI and we
19:21
Speaker 2: use a lot of technology that's facing our team internally
19:25
Speaker 2: so that our licensed Medicare advisors have the best information
19:28
Speaker 2: at their fingertips and know what's going on. But we
19:31
Speaker 2: think it's really important to have a relationship with the
19:34
Speaker 2: end user. And the reality is most people want to
19:36
Speaker 2: talk to a human, especially seniors. I think most Americans do,
19:40
Speaker 2: but particularly seniors.
19:42
Speaker 1: Oh, I have this theory that the next... wave of
19:47
Speaker 1: incremental revenue streams. for tech companies are going to be
19:52
Speaker 1: to charge more for human connectivity.
19:55
Speaker 2: Yep. Totally agree.
19:56
Speaker 1: That human customer service, you can get free customer service
19:59
Speaker 1: from an AI or you can get human customer service.
20:04
Speaker 1: You may have to pay for it, which is, some
20:07
Speaker 1: people aren't going to like that I said that. I'm
20:09
Speaker 1: just saying I'm not saying it should be that way.
20:11
Speaker 1: I think we both know.
20:13
Speaker 2: Right.
20:14
Speaker 1: We both know that this could get there. You just
20:25
Speaker 1: used a phrase, licensed Medicare advisor. How does one become
20:29
Speaker 1: a licensed Medicare advisor?
20:32
Speaker 2: There are a number of different regulatory steps you have
20:36
Speaker 2: to go through. So you have to be licensed at
20:37
Speaker 2: the federal level. There is a third party organization that
20:40
Speaker 2: runs it to get the accreditation. It's an accident health
20:45
Speaker 2: insurance license.
20:47
Speaker 1: So do you have literally every employee goes to our
20:49
Speaker 1: class or what is is, you know, I'm just curious.
20:54
Speaker 2: There's how do you get licensed, which frankly is not
20:56
Speaker 2: a particularly high bar. How do you be a Medicare advisor?
20:59
Speaker 2: A chapter is a much higher bar that we control.
21:01
Speaker 2: The licensure is done by a third party. Every Medicare
21:04
Speaker 2: advisor in the country has to go through the same test.
21:07
Speaker 2: It's a standardized test to get, think of it as
21:09
Speaker 2: like a real estate license. It's a credential you have
21:13
Speaker 2: to get. Again, it's not a particularly high bar. For chapter,
21:17
Speaker 2: we set up our own training program, which covers not
21:20
Speaker 2: only the basics, but all the edge cases to make
21:22
Speaker 2: sure people are getting the best guidance. Our philosophy around Medicare,
21:28
Speaker 2: which is unique, most Medicare advisors really prioritize Medicare Advantage,
21:32
Speaker 2: largely because that pays a higher commission. We don't do that.
21:37
Speaker 2: We do what's right for the individual, and on net,
21:39
Speaker 2: we tend to support more people into Medicare Supplement because
21:42
Speaker 2: we think it's the correct move for people. even if
21:45
Speaker 2: it's not the best for our revenue, but we don't care.
21:48
Speaker 2: And then we set up a lot of training on
21:52
Speaker 2: our technology because the way that our Medicare advisors get
21:55
Speaker 2: the most up-to-date data is via our technology platform that
21:58
Speaker 2: we've built. So the way I like to think about
22:01
Speaker 2: it and talk about it is if... let's say if
22:05
Speaker 2: you were looking for directions in a town you just entered,
22:09
Speaker 2: you could ask a gas station attendant, that's what you
22:12
Speaker 2: might've done 20 years ago, like what's the fastest way
22:14
Speaker 2: to get to this place? Or today you could ask
22:17
Speaker 2: Google Maps, which not only will have all the roads,
22:20
Speaker 2: it'll have any detours, it'll have live traffic, which the
22:22
Speaker 2: gas station attendant probably won't have. And so we've built
22:25
Speaker 2: kind of that Google Maps analog. So we know everything
22:27
Speaker 2: that's going on on every plan with every doctor, with
22:30
Speaker 2: every prescription, with every health system. in someone's local area
22:34
Speaker 2: because that's what they care about. And it doesn't really
22:36
Speaker 2: matter that we're not the gas station attendant who lives
22:39
Speaker 2: there because we have all the data.
22:44
Speaker 1: So the average person uses you the first time they
22:49
Speaker 1: sign up, and is that the last time they interact
22:52
Speaker 1: with Chapter?
22:53
Speaker 2: No. So when people first connect with us, if it's appropriate,
22:57
Speaker 2: we'll help them sign up for a plan. If they're
22:58
Speaker 2: already on the right plan, we'll tell them that. Once
23:00
Speaker 2: they enroll in a plan, we are there 24-7, 365
23:03
Speaker 2: days a year. We have a full, what we call
23:05
Speaker 2: our member advocate team, which helps people find doctors who
23:09
Speaker 2: are in network, get lower price prescriptions, appeal bills and claims,
23:14
Speaker 2: understand their Medicare benefits, and really just answer any question
23:18
Speaker 2: they have. Our job is really to be the layer
23:20
Speaker 2: between them and the insurance carrier, because frankly, insurance carriers
23:23
Speaker 2: aren't that much fun to deal with. So we offer
23:27
Speaker 2: that sort of layer of support in between.
23:29
Speaker 1: Is the individual paying that or is that part of
23:32
Speaker 1: your process? B structure, the commission you're getting or.
23:36
Speaker 2: A lot of it, yeah. So we never charge the
23:38
Speaker 2: individual for our services. The way we earn revenue and
23:40
Speaker 2: build a business is we do earn revenue from the
23:42
Speaker 2: insurance carrier, like other Medicare advisors. But one of the
23:46
Speaker 2: many things that's unique about our model is we blind
23:49
Speaker 2: all of that information from our team and our team's
23:51
Speaker 2: compensation doesn't vary. So what that means is we will
23:54
Speaker 2: still enroll you in a Medicare plan, even if we
23:57
Speaker 2: are nothing on that plan. And the amount we pay
24:01
Speaker 2: our Medicare advisors does not vary.
24:03
Speaker 1: On average, how many Medicare plans are you guys, are
24:08
Speaker 1: they paying to be part of chapter and how many
24:10
Speaker 1: Medicare plans that you might guide people in where you're
24:14
Speaker 1: not getting compensated? Is this? 50% of the market, 20%
24:17
Speaker 1: of the market, 75%, you sure I'm asking?
24:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very, it actually, it actually varies a lot
24:22
Speaker 2: based on month because different plans are commissionable or non-commissionable.
24:25
Speaker 2: We get more contracts with more plans, but between 60
24:28
Speaker 2: and 90% of people we support, we earn revenue on
24:33
Speaker 2: depending on the month. So sometimes as low as 60%,
24:35
Speaker 2: sometimes as much as 90%.
24:37
Speaker 1: You know, there's plenty of, a cynic is going to
24:39
Speaker 1: hear that like, I'm sure they're always guiding into wherever
24:41
Speaker 1: they get a commission. Yeah. And that's just, it's, it's, but,
24:46
Speaker 1: If when you say, it's interesting, you said the Medicare
24:52
Speaker 1: Advantage plans, that sounds like they're the most aggressive at
24:57
Speaker 1: trying to get people into their plans. That's right. Why
25:00
Speaker 1: is that? Why do you think they don't, you know,
25:03
Speaker 1: because Medigap is something you do with the government, right?
25:06
Speaker 2: Medigap is also administered by these private insurance carriers. So
25:10
Speaker 2: there are- Why.
25:11
Speaker 1: Do they not like it? They just get more profit
25:13
Speaker 1: off of Medicare Advantage?
25:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not that they don't like it. It's that
25:16
Speaker 2: a Medicare Advantage plan tends to be more profitable than
25:19
Speaker 2: a Medicare supplement plan to the insurance carrier, which, if
25:23
Speaker 2: you think about insurance, means that it should be the
25:26
Speaker 2: inverse to the customer, that a Medicare supplement plan should
25:29
Speaker 2: be more profitable to the customer because it's a zero-sum game.
25:32
Speaker 2: There's a fixed number of dollars. And so if the
25:35
Speaker 2: plan is making more, the customer is making less. So
25:38
Speaker 2: that's one. It's not strictly correct, but that's one directional
25:40
Speaker 2: way to think about it. But yeah, broadly, Medicare Advantage
25:45
Speaker 2: carrier is making more money on a plan than a
25:48
Speaker 2: Medigap carrier is making on a plan. And so Medicare
25:51
Speaker 2: Advantage plans pay more to the distribute what they would
25:55
Speaker 2: consider to user acquisition or marketing of which Medicare advisors
26:01
Speaker 2: are part to get that to work.
26:05
Speaker 1: You know, in your, and I know in these days,
26:09
Speaker 1: Being bipartisan, I don't know if that's a good thing
26:11
Speaker 1: or a bad thing. It depends on the person, right?
26:13
Speaker 1: Like the way people feel about politicians in general. But
26:16
Speaker 1: you've got, whether it's Donna Shalala Al Gore on the left, J.D. Vance,
26:23
Speaker 1: I think Peter Thiel was a founder. Is that bipartisanship,
26:30
Speaker 1: I mean, you guys believe it's a feature. Is that
26:33
Speaker 1: helpful to you? Or do you wish you had less
26:35
Speaker 1: politicians involved?
26:37
Speaker 2: We actually never had any intention of having politicians involved.
26:42
Speaker 2: It was pure happenstance. So the backstory is Vivek Ramaswamy,
26:47
Speaker 2: who's now a prominent Republican.
26:48
Speaker 1: I forgot about Ramaswamy.
26:49
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
26:51
Speaker 1: A co-founder as well, right? Was he a full co-founder?
26:53
Speaker 2: Yeah. He was a full co-founder. Peter was not. I
26:56
Speaker 2: became very good friends with Vivek well before he ever
26:59
Speaker 2: entered politics. He was just a successful entrepreneur. He founded
27:01
Speaker 2: a very successful public biopharma company called Roivant, which is
27:05
Speaker 2: a very good company. We had just gotten connected via
27:09
Speaker 2: mutual friend because that person knew we were both interested
27:11
Speaker 2: in helping older Americans. And so we just started getting
27:14
Speaker 2: to know each other, became very good friends, started working
27:18
Speaker 2: on the idea of chapter together. And then a few
27:21
Speaker 2: years later, a couple of years later, he decided to
27:24
Speaker 2: run for office, but that was never the context under
27:28
Speaker 2: which we started working together, got to know each other. Similarly,
27:31
Speaker 2: for JD, JD was a professional investor for a decade
27:35
Speaker 2: before he entered politics as a senator in Ohio. He
27:39
Speaker 2: was really interested in chapter actually because he grew up
27:41
Speaker 2: largely reliant on his community on Medicaid. He cared a
27:45
Speaker 2: lot about Medicare and Medicaid. When he was a senator,
27:47
Speaker 2: he actually was very supportive of both programs. And so, again,
27:53
Speaker 2: I met him under the context of him being a
27:55
Speaker 2: professional investor. He was never a politician. Both of them
27:58
Speaker 2: happened to be prominent politicians. One, the vice president, of course, today.
28:03
Speaker 2: But that just sort of happened. It was never intentional.
28:06
Speaker 2: And then similarly, We met Al Gore under the context
28:11
Speaker 2: of him being a professional investor. He hasn't been in
28:13
Speaker 2: politics in a very long time. Donna, of course, it's
28:17
Speaker 2: political because she was the Secretary of Health, but again,
28:19
Speaker 2: it was under the context of her being one of
28:21
Speaker 2: the foremost experts of Medicare because she actually ran the
28:25
Speaker 2: Medicare program for a very long time, for eight years
28:27
Speaker 2: under Clinton. It was more just we got to know
28:31
Speaker 2: people who were excited by our mission and excited by
28:33
Speaker 2: what we're doing. and less about the politics, I think
28:37
Speaker 2: it has actually been quite helpful to have people on
28:40
Speaker 2: both sides of the aisle because Medicare is inherently a
28:45
Speaker 2: government program, which even though it's, I'd say, nonpartisan, bipartisan,
28:49
Speaker 2: everyone supports it, there are political components to it. And
28:55
Speaker 2: in order to get anything passed, if we want to
28:57
Speaker 2: pass any regulations, it does have to go through Congress.
28:59
Speaker 2: So that's been helpful.
29:01
Speaker 1: Do you guys have lobbyists or do you use a
29:03
Speaker 1: trade association?
29:06
Speaker 2: Sort of neither. So for the first four years, all
29:11
Speaker 2: government engagement, I did just myself. I reached out to
29:16
Speaker 2: Congress members. I cold emailed people.
29:18
Speaker 1: I got- You had sort of been working on government
29:21
Speaker 1: contracts in the past. You felt pretty familiar with the process.
29:24
Speaker 2: Yes. Yes. When I was at Palantir, again, I've never
29:27
Speaker 2: been a lobbyist as a technical legal term. I've never
29:30
Speaker 2: been a lobbyist. I've never technically lobbied, I don't think.
29:35
Speaker 2: I've spent a lot of time with legislators, with federal government.
29:39
Speaker 2: I felt pretty good about how to engage with them
29:41
Speaker 2: and how to educate them. I was very fortunate to
29:44
Speaker 2: be invited to testify at the Senate in 2023. At
29:47
Speaker 2: the Senate Finance Committee, they were doing a hearing on
29:50
Speaker 2: how to improve Medicare marketing for seniors. And so that
29:53
Speaker 2: was a really cool life experience to be able to
29:55
Speaker 2: testify in front of the Senate. But the past year,
30:00
Speaker 2: I've been leaning on some more additional support as we've
30:03
Speaker 2: been trying to expand the messaging and get more pro-consumer
30:08
Speaker 2: regulations in front of Congress members.
30:11
Speaker 1: Are you only focused on Medicare or are you... Do
30:16
Speaker 1: you plan to expand into the regular health insurance system,
30:21
Speaker 1: the portals, healthcare.gov, even Medicaid and any of that?
30:26
Speaker 2: Our vision as a company has always been from day
30:29
Speaker 2: one to help older Americans live the best chapter of
30:33
Speaker 2: their lives of retirement. And so we want to redefine
30:36
Speaker 2: what it means to be older, what it means to
30:37
Speaker 2: be retired in this country. And I think healthcare and
30:42
Speaker 2: health insurance is a really important part of that, but
30:44
Speaker 2: it's not the only part.
30:45
Speaker 1: So if you expand, you're not expanding in healthcare. You're expanding,
30:50
Speaker 1: sticking with the same demographic group, not to sort of,
30:53
Speaker 1: you know, it's like there are two directions your business
30:56
Speaker 1: plan could have gone, right? One would have been the
30:59
Speaker 1: entire healthcare system, insurance system, and you could have gone
31:02
Speaker 1: in different directions. You've decided to stick to, we're going
31:07
Speaker 1: to be an organization for seniors. And so maybe you
31:10
Speaker 1: end up getting into life insurance or fiduciary or things
31:13
Speaker 1: like that. Is that what you're thinking?
31:16
Speaker 2: The first part, yes. Our goal is to help seniors,
31:18
Speaker 2: and we think about how do we earn the right
31:20
Speaker 2: to help people with more and more aspects of their lives.
31:24
Speaker 2: I don't particularly want to sell insurance. We only sell
31:28
Speaker 2: Medicare because it's so important. I think, frankly, most people
31:32
Speaker 2: who are buying life insurance should probably buy it before
31:34
Speaker 2: their 60s. Otherwise, it's not necessarily... a good product to buy.
31:38
Speaker 2: I don't know that we want to go selling life insurance,
31:40
Speaker 2: but more specifically, we do want to help people with
31:43
Speaker 2: their finances. We will be rolling out a product later
31:46
Speaker 2: this year actually to monitor people's health expenses and tell
31:49
Speaker 2: them when they're being overpaid. Because we know everything about
31:52
Speaker 2: your health insurance, about your Medicare, we can tell you,
31:54
Speaker 2: are you being charged the in-network copay as opposed to
31:58
Speaker 2: the out-of-network copay? Are you being charged the right amount
32:01
Speaker 2: from your doctor and from your health insurance carrier? Starting
32:03
Speaker 2: to monitor people's expenses to save them money. That type
32:06
Speaker 2: of thing I'm very excited about.
32:09
Speaker 1: I think about, you know, being with the entrepreneurial myself
32:15
Speaker 1: in different areas, you always think, okay, who could disrupt
32:19
Speaker 1: my business? And it feels to me your only challenge
32:23
Speaker 1: is the federal government, right? I guess medicare.gov, in theory,
32:28
Speaker 1: could offer the services you offer. It just sounds like
32:34
Speaker 1: you think, well, Maybe they'll eventually figure this out. But
32:38
Speaker 1: for a good 10 to 15, maybe 20 years, this
32:40
Speaker 1: is going to be a good business.
32:42
Speaker 2: Frankly, if the government is my main competition, I feel great.
32:48
Speaker 1: And is that how you view it? Or do you
32:50
Speaker 1: right now as you're- It's not. I don't think you
32:54
Speaker 1: can be a successful, run a good business if you
32:56
Speaker 1: don't measure yourself against. So I always love to ask
32:59
Speaker 1: this question. Who do you measure yourself against?
33:02
Speaker 2: I appreciate that question. So to answer the first part,
33:04
Speaker 2: I don't view myself in competition with the government at all.
33:10
Speaker 2: Even if the government had better technology, there will be
33:12
Speaker 2: at least 50% of Americans who don't trust, unfortunately, who
33:15
Speaker 2: don't trust the government.
33:16
Speaker 1: You're right. No matter what, they want some third-party verifier.
33:19
Speaker 1: You're 100% correct.
33:21
Speaker 2: I don't view it as competition. I view it as, hopefully, complementary.
33:27
Speaker 2: We don't view ourselves, alluding to it as really a
33:29
Speaker 2: Medicare company, we view ourselves as a technology company that
33:32
Speaker 2: builds great products to help redefine retirement. When we think
33:35
Speaker 2: about that, we're thinking about how do we build the
33:38
Speaker 2: best technology? I think about the best technology companies. How
33:44
Speaker 2: do we build great products that people love, like Apple?
33:47
Speaker 2: How do we build great AI products, like some of
33:50
Speaker 2: the AI labs? How do we build great applications of AI,
33:53
Speaker 2: like some of the verticalized application companies that are building
34:00
Speaker 2: really good products? That's more how we think of ourselves.
34:03
Speaker 2: To your point, though, it's a very strange moment we're in.
34:07
Speaker 2: When I started the company, as happens in any investor-backed category,
34:12
Speaker 2: there were a lot of other companies that from the
34:14
Speaker 2: outside looked pretty similar to us. There were seven or
34:16
Speaker 2: eight other venture-backed companies trying to revamp Medicare. or the
34:20
Speaker 2: Medicare process. We're kind of the only one that exists
34:23
Speaker 2: today of those 78. They've all gone out of business.
34:26
Speaker 2: And so in a lot of ways, we don't really
34:30
Speaker 2: have competition today, at least in our core sort of
34:33
Speaker 2: what we do, which is strange.
34:35
Speaker 1: What do you think the failure was of those other businesses?
34:37
Speaker 1: They were just technologically behind.
34:40
Speaker 2: There's a number of different aspects and obviously I wasn't there,
34:44
Speaker 2: so it's- Oh, of course. But my hypothesis is there
34:47
Speaker 2: are two things. One is it's a very hard business
34:49
Speaker 2: to execute well. It's just very hard from a data perspective,
34:54
Speaker 2: from an insurance carrier relation perspective, from a user acquisition perspective,
34:57
Speaker 2: it's very hard to execute. And so execution is one component.
34:59
Speaker 2: And then the other component is Because my background in
35:03
Speaker 2: data and technology, I think I understand the value of
35:05
Speaker 2: having accurate data and how much that affects people's interaction
35:10
Speaker 2: with the company. Most of these other companies really just
35:13
Speaker 2: tried to make the user interface a little bit better
35:15
Speaker 2: without fixing the underlying data challenges and the underlying incentive challenges.
35:19
Speaker 2: So I think we solved a lot of the actual
35:22
Speaker 2: foundational issues that other people either weren't aware of or
35:25
Speaker 2: couldn't solve.
35:26
Speaker 1: All right. So you have a unique perspective. And you
35:30
Speaker 1: have a unique insight on this sort of, you know,
35:34
Speaker 1: we have this quasi public private health care relationship, health
35:38
Speaker 1: insurance relationship in this country. Right. It's always ours is different.
35:43
Speaker 1: Wave a magic wand. If you were starting this from scratch,
35:47
Speaker 1: what would it look like? Is there anything out there
35:50
Speaker 1: that's familiar today that you'd be like, you know, this
35:53
Speaker 1: model would if we had only started it this way,
35:56
Speaker 1: we'd be in a better place.
35:59
Speaker 2: It's really hard to come up with a perfect healthcare
36:02
Speaker 2: system for the US. Other countries have in many ways
36:06
Speaker 2: more effective healthcare systems, but it's largely because they're much
36:09
Speaker 2: more homogenous. They're much smaller. And homogeneity matters when you're
36:15
Speaker 2: dealing with healthcare because there are genetic correlations that affect
36:20
Speaker 2: the type of care people need.
36:22
Speaker 1: We're not an ethnic-based nation. We're an idea. So it
36:25
Speaker 1: means we've got the whole world's DNA in our country.
36:29
Speaker 1: in a way that no other country has this much
36:31
Speaker 1: different DNA in it than ours.
36:33
Speaker 2: Which is a beautiful thing for our country, but a
36:35
Speaker 2: very hard thing for our health system to deal with.
36:38
Speaker 2: I do think there are a couple of core principles
36:40
Speaker 2: that if we implemented would make our system 100X better.
36:45
Speaker 2: One is today there's no longitudinal incentive for an insurance
36:49
Speaker 2: carrier to proactively keep us healthy. What I mean by
36:53
Speaker 2: that is If you're.
36:54
Speaker 1: On- They make more money when we use the system.
36:57
Speaker 1: They don't make more money when we don't.
36:59
Speaker 2: Exactly. And so how do we flip that incentive? And
37:01
Speaker 2: not only that, but- I am going to be, you know,
37:04
Speaker 2: I'm employed by chapter. I get my health insurance through chapter.
37:09
Speaker 2: Chapter may switch its health insurance carrier next year. So
37:13
Speaker 2: all of chapter's employees may go from insurance carrier A
37:16
Speaker 2: to insurance carrier B. So why should insurance carrier A
37:19
Speaker 2: think about how healthy I'm going to be in 10 years?
37:21
Speaker 2: They only care about how healthy I'm going to be
37:23
Speaker 2: when I'm covered by them, when I can make money
37:24
Speaker 2: by them, right? Similar for Medicare. Again, it depends on
37:29
Speaker 2: the type of Medicare and the specifics, but many people
37:31
Speaker 2: switch their plan every year. And so if you are
37:34
Speaker 2: switching your plan every year, why should an insurance care
37:37
Speaker 2: care about your health in 15 or 20 years? And
37:40
Speaker 2: that's a rational response. I'm not blaming the insurance carriers,
37:43
Speaker 2: it's actually rational.
37:44
Speaker 1: No, I was just gonna say, right, this is logic, right?
37:47
Speaker 1: It's human.
37:48
Speaker 2: And so what I would love to see is some
37:51
Speaker 2: type of longitudinal incentive. And I think there's a lot
37:55
Speaker 2: of ways that could be implemented, but one way is
37:58
Speaker 2: you basically have a reinsurance carrier, who is basically, it
38:04
Speaker 2: would have to be government facilitated in some way because
38:07
Speaker 2: they'd have to be with you for at least 30 years.
38:09
Speaker 2: I'd say you get assigned a reinsurance carrier who's with
38:13
Speaker 2: you from, I don't know, 18 to until you pass
38:18
Speaker 2: away or something like that, where they actually are compensated
38:22
Speaker 2: and are incentivized to improve your health over the long term.
38:28
Speaker 1: It's almost like they get paid more the longer we live. Exactly, exactly.
38:32
Speaker 2: Or they get paid for preventative care or, you know,
38:36
Speaker 2: there's a lot of ways to, and the details matter
38:38
Speaker 2: a lot and are hard to pontificate on in abstract,
38:41
Speaker 2: but I think that concept would dramatically improve.
38:45
Speaker 1: I mean, we sort of dabbled in it with the smoking, right?
38:51
Speaker 1: If you're a smoker, you get charged more. And I
38:55
Speaker 1: guess in the law, we decided that was okay to
38:57
Speaker 1: do that, right? There was always some, You know, it is,
39:01
Speaker 1: you know, the obviously the big fight during Obamacare was, OK,
39:04
Speaker 1: if you're going to cover preexisting conditions and make it
39:07
Speaker 1: sort of a neutral deal, a healthier person doesn't get
39:12
Speaker 1: to pay less.
39:13
Speaker 2: Right.
39:13
Speaker 1: You're in this larger pool. And, you know, if you don't,
39:19
Speaker 1: as we've all learned, if you don't do it that way,
39:21
Speaker 1: you know, you basically disincentivize insurance companies from helping unhealthy people.
39:26
Speaker 2: Right.
39:26
Speaker 1: Yes.
39:27
Speaker 2: Yes, the second element, which actually is in health related,
39:31
Speaker 2: so much of our health is determined by our food
39:34
Speaker 2: and our food quality is so much worse than most
39:38
Speaker 2: other developed countries. And so I just think if we
39:41
Speaker 2: had better food and it were more cost-effective to buy
39:45
Speaker 2: good food, to me, it's always been crazy that if
39:47
Speaker 2: I want to buy just... Lettuce, like good quality lettuce
39:52
Speaker 2: or good quality apples that is more expensive than buying
39:56
Speaker 2: a hamburger.
39:57
Speaker 1: Right. In theory, had more people had to do work
40:03
Speaker 1: to create that hamburger, there was more, you know, whether
40:06
Speaker 1: it's the right processes to create the hamburger than there
40:10
Speaker 1: is to create the apple. And yet the apple, you know,
40:14
Speaker 1: fresh apples can be as expensive as a McDonald's hamburger.
40:18
Speaker 2: Exactly. And so I think we need better quality food
40:21
Speaker 2: that's more affordable. And again, it's rational that especially people
40:26
Speaker 2: who have less income are relying on cheaper food, and
40:30
Speaker 2: that cheaper food is predominantly not healthy. And so I
40:33
Speaker 2: think if we could fix a lot of our food
40:36
Speaker 2: supply and food economics, it would also dramatically improve the
40:38
Speaker 2: health of this country.
40:40
Speaker 1: So 10 years ago, when you were learning, when you
40:44
Speaker 1: got to Silicon Valley, you started Did you think you
40:47
Speaker 1: were going to be in the healthcare space?
40:49
Speaker 2: I did not, I still often don't think of ourselves
40:53
Speaker 2: in the healthcare space. Obviously we interact with health insurance carriers,
40:55
Speaker 2: but so much of what we do is we think
40:58
Speaker 2: about the world so differently than anyone who has grown up,
41:01
Speaker 2: so to speak, in healthcare. But no, I didn't expect
41:05
Speaker 2: us to, I didn't expect myself to be here. As
41:08
Speaker 2: you alluded to, it's always kind of funny to think
41:10
Speaker 2: about the current vice president as someone that was involved
41:15
Speaker 2: with the company, a former vice president, someone who was
41:17
Speaker 2: involved with the company. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
41:20
Speaker 1: These were a lot of vice presidents. Yeah.
41:22
Speaker 2: Yeah. We'll see if we can get some more.
41:25
Speaker 1: We'll find out what Kamala Harris is up to.
41:28
Speaker 2: Right.
41:29
Speaker 1: Exactly. And all that stuff. Well, look, I am full disclosure.
41:36
Speaker 1: You guys are a sponsor. Your sponsor. Also, my partner
41:39
Speaker 1: on Super Tuesdays, Chris Eliza. And so, look, I think
41:44
Speaker 1: these conversations are. are useful, they're helpful, and I want
41:48
Speaker 1: to make them sort of where people learn something. I
41:51
Speaker 1: appreciate that. I appreciate that you were comfortable and forthcoming
41:55
Speaker 1: talking about all this.
41:57
Speaker 2: Of course. Thanks so much for having me.