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STSE# 77: What Does "Don't Punish the Growl Mean"? · Sometimes There's Side Eye

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  Welcome to Sometimes Their Side Eye, a podcast about two friends
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  having real and unfiltered conversations about dogs and
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  people. Listen as we talk about our
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  lives with dogs, training, behavior, share some laughs and
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  a whole lot of banter. I'm Heather.
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  And I'm Christy. What are we talking about this
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  week, Christy? So this week I thought we would
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  talk about the phrase don't punish the growl.
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  In our last episode, Heather talked about not punishing the
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  growl. And I realized that when I
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  started my journey of learning about dogs and dog behavior,
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  people would constantly tell me that.
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  And I was like, I don't know what that means.
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  And I don't know, does that mean just ignore all the growls?
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  Like just do nothing and let things escalate?
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  It didn't know how to implement that.
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  And so I thought, it's such a common phrase, maybe we should
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  address it. Yeah, I definitely say it and
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  assume that everyone understands it.
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  So I'm glad that you mentioned this as a potential topic.
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  And I feel like it's definitely a shift.
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  It's one of those other things that as we understand more about
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  dogs and dog behavior and dog training, that for the majority
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  of people, they have come to understand that if we are either
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  suppressing or ignoring when a dog growls, we are missing out
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  on key information that the dog is trying to tell us.
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  And it is their number, like they're a way for them to speak
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  to us. You're right, yeah.
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  I also think that if we kind of change the mindset of how we
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  think about a growl and think of it as a form of communication,
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  it's an easier form of communication sometimes to
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  understand then well, is your dog's body stiff?
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  Are they whale eyed? Are they shifting weight?
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  Are they tense? Like, are they?
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  Yeah. It is a much clearer way for of
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  them communicating and for us to understand.
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  But it is no different than any of those other characteristics
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  that we are told to look for in understanding.
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  If our dog is fearful, tense, I don't want to say upset, but,
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  you know, all of those different things have some feelings.
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  Yeah. So I think it's it's kind of
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  like shifting the mindset to that it's just another way for
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  us to understand our dogs. Yeah, yeah.
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  So when you say don't punish the growl, what?
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  What would you do instead? I guess it depends on why
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  they're. Growling even.
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  Like what does that look like? Not punishing the girl.
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  Yeah. So something that popped in my
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  head as a really, really classic example of of that I can think
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  of and happened with my dog Link, was if I would go, he's on
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  the couch and I go to grab his collar to remove him from the
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  couch, that would have been a time where I could see him
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  growling. OK.
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  And I think that trying to physically move your dog from a
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  space could be a time that would be a common, common scenario for
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  people that a dog might growl. And for me today, I have a lot
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  of different things that I would do instead.
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  So I am not necessarily a person to go and like grab a collar in
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  the same way that I would have 20 years ago.
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  My first go to is if I want a dog to move, I will throw food.
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  That's like my first thing. If they don't have a queue where
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  I can say off or move or out or whatever your commands are.
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  If I want a dog to move, then I'm going to use food, a toy,
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  something to like motivate them to move out of the space.
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  And so then we are not inciting the growl.
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  So I guess I would say, say you go in, you go to grab your dog's
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  collar because you want them to move and they growl.
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  The first thing I'm going to do is step back because I'm going
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  to respect their space. And the fact that they're
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  telling me, hey, I'm not comfortable with what you're
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  doing and I'm asking you for space.
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  And then I'm going to go to, OK, I need the dog to move.
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  So what other tools do I have to make that happen?
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  I can throw food, throw a toy, use a cue that they know all of
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  the different things. If it's a dog you're having
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  other issues with, I also was thinking or you're working
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  through this problem, then that would also be a dog that in this
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  scenario, I might also have trailing a line.
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  And so then I don't have to like impede on the dog's space.
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  I have a line. I can then use the line to help
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  me guide them off, but that's obviously for this specific
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  example. Does that help?
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  Yeah, I think so because I, I think it's important too, if, if
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  you're having issues with your dog moving or spatial issues,
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  teach that move cue. I just often walk up to Jackson
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  and say, hey, can you move over and like he does?
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  Because he's like, I'm like, you're in my spot.
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  And then I, I often use body pressure, like spatial pressure.
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  I mean, I'm not, I'm not sitting on him.
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  Spatial but but you're right. Spatial pressure is a huge.
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  Yeah. But it was some dogs that could
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  create a growl like, you know, And so I think, you know, when,
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  when I was new to not punishing the growl, I, I thought, oh, if
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  we're not punishing the growl, we're not doing anything else
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  either. And so we're just allowing dogs
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  to growl and possibly escalate. Because I was really thinking at
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  that time, the only time I was really having issues with
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  growling was dog to dog. And, and so then, OK, they're
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  growling at each other. So now I just step back and let
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  whatever happens, happen. Like that's not, and I want to
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  be clear, like that's not what not punishing the growl is.
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  It's stepping in in a different way where we're not saying like,
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  no, don't growl or, or hitting the dog or jerking on them.
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  I do see that a lot still in non training aspects like
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  day-to-day. My neighborhood is very dog
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  social. I mean there's always dogs in
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  the park playing together. There's always and it's not a
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  dog park, they're just playing together.
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  I run into people on my walk every day, deck some place with
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  dogs every day on our walk. Christy never thought this would
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  be her life. No, this was not the life, but
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  Jackson loves it so. And I have a lot of trusted dogs
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  now. And So what I do see is
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  sometimes a new dog will come into the mix and growl and then
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  immediately they're jerked off their feet all together.
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  They're jerked back, they're jerked off their feet, they're
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  hit, they're yelled at there. There's a variety of things that
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  happened because they growled. Interesting.
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  And and I think man, this is such a solid group of dogs that
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  is here that none of the other dogs even reacted to the growl.
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  They were like, oh, OK, you're not friendly.
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  Like we're not interacting with you then if you're going to
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  behave that way, we're turning our attention somewhere else.
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  So they took care of it themselves.
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  And yet the owner is man, like just going after their dog for
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  barking or not barking for growling.
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  And I'm like, oh, OK, they growled and the dogs corrected
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  it. But man, you're really on the
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  dog in a negative way. So I do think there, there's
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  still this concept out there that we have that growling is
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  bad. Yeah.
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  And I do think it's a pre, it's a precursor, yeah, to
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  escalation, Yeah, it can be. It can be, can be.
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  Yeah, cuz it could also a mean play.
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  It could happen. It could happen during dog play.
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  It could happen when you're playing like #1 playing tug with
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  a dog. I want my dog to growl at me
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  when I'm playing tug with them. I'm like, give them a tap on
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  their side to like get them really into it, you know?
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  And I'm like, I'm growling with them actually.
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  And I want that whole back and forth.
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  I think we have to be very careful because there are times
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  where growling really is something entirely different.
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  And you don't want to assume that even when a dog walks up to
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  another dog and that they growl that it's even the precursor to
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  something escalating outside of maybe it's escalating to play,
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  but like escalating to something negative.
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  But then that makes me say that is when you do need to be
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  educated on not just your personal dog, but how, but dog
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  body language for your personal dog.
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  Because just like we've said before, or I wouldn't tell
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  someone to assume that their dog's hackles being up makes
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  means that they're going to attack a dog, You got to look at
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  everything because the whole body is the picture, right?
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  So when you're talking about growls in relation to
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  communication with another dog, you do have to put the other
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  pieces together and look at the whole picture of your dog, their
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  dog, the environment, you know, your dog's history.
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  And, and I know that's a lot to ask in in a moment, but the
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  growl really, truly is information.
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  Yeah. It is.
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  And Jackson's like the noisiest player, the worst growler when
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  he's playing and I have to warn people, OK, he's a very noisy
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  player. He sounds not great, but I also
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  have to listen to his tones, which is interesting because he
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  he's very vocal when he plays, but then there's like a shift in
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  tone and then I'm like, oh, he's not playing anymore.
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  Now he's upset about like he has some feelings about something
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  that happened. Either he's overstimulated or he
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  needs, he actually needs space now.
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  And what's been interesting is a lot of people, if their dog is
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  over playing with Jackson, they can't differentiate those growls
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  at all. And they're like, I don't know
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  why you decided that was too much when you didn't think it
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  was too much before. And I explained like, there's
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  different tones to it. And they're like, I didn't hear
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  anything different. And if that's that's OK, if
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  that's you, you can learn, but you can also play it safe if you
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  feel like that's not something that you're comfortable with.
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  But I would say playing it safe means not hanging your dog by
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  the leash, which Chris, you would never do.
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  But like playing it safe means intervening in a way that is not
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  going to then escalate what was nothing into something.
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  So maybe you and your you know, you when your dog out for a walk
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  in this scenario, come up to another dog in a park, your dog
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  growls that makes you feel uncomfortable.
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  Doesn't matter why it was, but the reaction I would prefer in
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  that situation is me saying to my dog, let's go and turning in
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  the opposite direction, right? Because we are, if if the growl
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  was quote UN quote negative, then we're changing our tone to
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  put it in a different direction. And if the growl was quote UN
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  quote positive, then we are not punishing it.
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  We are just saying let's go and we're making no big deal about
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  it. Yeah.
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  Yeah. And if your dog comes to you
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  easily, like, give him a treat for that too.
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  Like, yes, you know. It's just a very light hearted
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  like, hey, let's go this way instead, let's keep going.
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  So I think what I would say is we don't want to punish the
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  growl, but it's OK to redirect it in a positive way.
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  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
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  And I mean, I would say Even so, when I had Julius, I think we
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  talked about this a lot, he was very dog reactive.
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  He ended up in a home with lots of other dogs.
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  I knew he could do it it just on leash.
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  He was extremely dog reactive behind a barrier, extremely dog
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  reactive. And so we, we went to a trainer
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  and she had said, Hey, I don't want you to react at all when my
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  dog comes out, regardless of what he does.
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  And we had really been working on reactivity.
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  So when her dog came out and he only growled instead of
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  exploding, he did a little growl and I go, oh, good boy.
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  And she goes, OK, I don't think I've ever had that happen.
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  Yeah, well. Normally he explodes.
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  And so now for him to request space with a simple growl, yes,
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  that's such a huge step for him. And she's like, OK, I don't
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  usually see people recognize that.
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  Yes. And she was like, no, you did
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  the right thing by like. Telling him.
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  Because he didn't. Explode.
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  Yeah, yeah. He's just telling me information
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  without going to teeth, which is exactly what we want.
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  Right, exactly. I totally agree.
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  Yeah, I think well, and we mentioned in the past in the
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  last episode or I forget, but I was saying also a growl from
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  Tiago and a growl from Tater are two very different things that I
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  treat very differently. If I'm on the couch and I'm
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  snuggling with Thiago and I'll move my arm or whatever and like
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  reposition and he would ever growl at me, I'm going to say
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  whatever because it hasn't happened.
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  I would instantly be like, there's something wrong with my
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  dog because that is not part of his normal repertoire.
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  That is not a way he communicates with me.
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  And whereas if I'm laying with Tater and I go and I want to
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  shift his wait and he like at me, and that wasn't a good
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  impersonation. It actually sounds like a growl,
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  but it's different from a bulldog.
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  And he'll even give a little. Yeah.
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  And he gives a lift curl, right? I don't, I essentially dismiss
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  it. I ignore it.
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  It's not that I don't take it as information because I know it's
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  information, but he is more quick to use his voice as am I.
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  And so that is just part of his personality.
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  So I, I am definitely, while it's information, I am quick to
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  dismiss because I'm just like, dude, whatever, you're my legs
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  asleep and I need you to move. So it is a simple statement to
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  say don't punish the growl, but there is a lot of nuance behind
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  it, and that nuance is different for individual dogs and
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  individual relationships. Yeah, I also think it's
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  important to recognize a growl towards another dog or another
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  animal feels a lot different than a growl towards a human.
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  And I feel like a lot of times there's some feelings associated
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  with that, that growl, that just be aware if your dog growls at
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  you or at a human that is, it's still OK to take that step back.
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  You don't, yeah, react. In fact, we're saying please
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  don't react. Please don't.
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  Cause yeah, 'cause that emotional, like I'm gonna be
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  honest. If I if my dog who loves me,
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  growls at me, I'm offended. Like, I mean, maybe not if like
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  if bulldog growls at me, I'm not offended.
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  And I know he loves me. Yeah.
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  But my own Jackson, who doesn't growl, if he were to growl at
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  me, I would be startled and defended.
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  Interesting. And that that would be a lot of
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  emotion in that that I would automatically want to react to.
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  But that's that's not where you want to start.
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  You want to start in a thought process.
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  Well, what is this? Yeah, start with curiosity.
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  What is? This and and I would say if you
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  need to have a reaction, have the reaction to move away, not
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  move towards. So because a lot of the times
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  I'm going to hazard a guess that if your dog is growling, they're
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  growling because they're asking for space in some way.
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  And so you eat even though like with bulldog, I'm like, oh,
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  whatever, I dismiss the growl, but I'm not going to, it's still
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  information. And so if you are feeling some
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  type of way when your dog growls at you, which is totally
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  warranted, just take a step back, take a breath and, and
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  recognize, OK, this is the time to take space and think about
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  this for a moment. Because there's nothing you're
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  not going to gain anything by pushing forward, right?
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  You could be detrimental. You could push them further, but
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  you're not going to gain anything.
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  So whereas if you're pulling back, just like the park
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  example, when you're like, let's go, you only have something to
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  gain by taking a step back, taking a moment, taking a breath
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  and assessing the situation and then deciding, OK, was that a
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  one off? Is this normal?
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  Is this not normal? Do I think he's painful?
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  Do I think something else is going on?
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  You know, do you have a dog that sometimes resource guards and
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  there was a bone there. I mean, just you can think
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  through the whole process and take that step.
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  It's you're not saying to your dog, great job, way to growl at
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  me. I hope you do it forever, every
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  single day for the rest. Of your life.
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  And I think that is something people think they're like,
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  rewarding the growl. We're not asking you to reward
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  the growl, and it's not rewarding the growl, it's just
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  taking a step back to reassess. And I think I used the example
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  with Thiago in the last episode where there are times where I
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  will reward the growl. I will praise him for growling.
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  If I think that my dog is assessing a situation and
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  protecting me, I will absolutely tell them good job for growling.
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  But that growl is not placed towards me.
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  That's what we're talking about. We're talking about growls that
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  are that are coming at you from your dog and how you sort of
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  handle that. And it's OK for you to have
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  feelings about that. And then kind of decide you're
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  not, you're not putting like a little rosette on that growl and
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  saying way to go. You got to be.
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  You're just taking a moment to step back, assess and then
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  decide what's the right move to go forward.
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  Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  And there are times, like you said, that you, you praise a
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  growl. Like I just this week I had a
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  puppy over and Jackson was laying next to me.
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  And the puppy, being a puppy, decided to run across his
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  stomach and rib cage. And Jackson let her know right
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  away that that was not appropriate to do with the
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  growl. I also trust Jackson.
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  I know he's not going to escalate into biting the puppy.
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  He's not going to be overly aggressive with a puppy or any
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  dog. Honestly.
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  And so I was like, yeah, good job, buddy.
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  Like I can't teach that puppy that your growl is setting
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  boundaries for her. And she's getting it at her home
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  with a grown dog and she's now in a new environment getting the
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  same information. So then hopefully that sticks.
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  Yep. And she becomes an appropriate
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  adult dog than with other dogs. Right, so.
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  Sometimes, yeah, sometimes we we reward the growl and sometimes
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  we just don't punish it. Yeah, I agree.
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  I would also say sometimes if you know your dog, I was
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  thinking of. So my brother's dog and Jackson,
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  we've worked really hard on their relationship.
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  It's not 100% it. It very much has to be
• 21:00
  monitored. They can't be alone together.
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  It's and little things can tip it, but mostly they coexist
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  together. But over Thanksgiving, I had
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  given my dog a bone when my brother's dog was out of the
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  cabin. And then when they came back,
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  there were clearly some remnants in the carpet that I did not get
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  up. And so they were both sniffing
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  there, which turned into a little some puff and stuff.
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  Puff and stuff. Yeah.
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  So not like a full fight, but like growl snarly could turn
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  into a full fight. But as soon as we heard the
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  growl that was indicating it's a different growl from both of
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  them, indicating we're both unhappy and we're not going to
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  back down and then escalating. I think I stood up and said hey,
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  and then my brother did the same thing.
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  No, some people would say that's punishing the growl because it's
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  it's yelling at the dog. But I also know my dog and my
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  brother's dog, to know a simple hey is going to dissipate that
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  energy that they're going to go in different directions and my
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  dog's then going to come to me because he's not scared.
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  If I say hey, it's not oh, my mom's going to beat me.
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  It's hey. My mom is like, hey, seriously,
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  get over here with me. It's an interruption.
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  It's an interruption actually. No, it's a disruption.
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  There you go. It's a disruption of the
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  conversation that they're having, and that's OK.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of stepping between
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  and saying hey, hey, hey. And we didn't do it in a hey,
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  hey, hey, hey light manner. Yeah, it was serious, but it was
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  also not. Nobody got in trouble for them.
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  It was just like, hey, come, come to your respective corners,
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  your respective owners. Everybody's gonna get their
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  love. Everyone's gonna be OK.
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  No big deal. Yeah, and there again, it's an
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  example of you asking everyone to step back and take a breath.
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  Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
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  Yeah, I think, and that's a, that's a good example of dog,
• 23:05
  dog growling where it's like like this could turn into
• 23:10
  something. But I would have, honestly, if I
• 23:14
  was in the same situation, I would have done exactly what you
• 23:17
  did. I, I, I would have just sort of
• 23:20
  did the conversation and yeah, because you know that your
• 23:24
  connection to your dogs, they're going to come back to you.
• 23:27
  And then everything, all the energy in the room just goes
• 23:30
  down 10 notches, which is the whole point, yeah.
• 23:34
  Yeah. Yeah, so I think, I think I
• 23:36
  really like the thought of don't punish the growl, but also be
• 23:42
  inquisitive and curious about what is happening.
• 23:45
  Take some space. Don't be afraid to take that
• 23:47
  space and really look at the whole picture and say where is
• 23:51
  it coming from and assess and then move forward and know that
• 23:56
  just because you take that moment, you're not rewarding it,
• 24:00
  but you're also not punishing it.
• 24:02
  You're just taking information from it because that's truly
• 24:06
  what it is. It is the dog communicating to
• 24:09
  you that something that is happening is not OK, or
• 24:12
  commuting actually communicating to another being that something
• 24:16
  is not OK because they're either communicating to you, another
• 24:19
  dog, another species, whatever. And how you handle that can be
• 24:25
  can set up a really good communication between you and
• 24:28
  your dog. Yeah, I do also want to say
• 24:31
  every growl is not appropriate and and even if it's an
• 24:36
  inappropriate growl, it doesn't mean it needs to be punished.
• 24:40
  Yes, because. Yeah, because.
• 24:44
  Because if you punish the growl and they not do not feel that
• 24:48
  that is an option for them anymore because it's been
• 24:52
  punished, the next place they may go is to biting or air
• 24:57
  snapping and having a dog feel like the growl is no longer
• 25:02
  available as a means of communication to go to using
• 25:07
  their teeth in whatever way that is, is not what we want to
• 25:11
  happen. Yeah, yeah.
• 25:13
  We had a little poodle run up to Jackson in a in a group of dogs.
• 25:19
  And then she just decided she came up to us.
• 25:21
  We didn't go to her, she came to us.
• 25:23
  And then she jumps on Jackson's shoulder with her little paws on
• 25:26
  his shoulder and like gets right in his face and then growls at
• 25:29
  him. And I was like, what is
• 25:32
  happening? And luckily Jackson was like
• 25:35
  very unintimidated by it. And he was like, whatever.
• 25:38
  And in that moment, I was like, OK, let's just move on.
• 25:41
  Why? Don't you scooch?
• 25:42
  Over Scooch. Scooch, where's your owner?
• 25:45
  And then calling for her owner to come get her.
• 25:47
  Hey, she's unhappy, like. Let's move her along.
• 25:50
  No big deal. And now she we do see her, she
• 25:55
  she will get growl at Jackson if she's too close to him.
• 25:59
  But until that point, she's pretty comfortable, which I do
• 26:03
  think is part of like she's established a boundary of I'm
• 26:06
  not comfortable with you. And Jackson is like, that's
• 26:08
  cool. We don't have to be friends.
• 26:10
  Like I'm going to give you some space.
• 26:12
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would just be cognizant
• 26:17
  just like everything else we say browser complex but don't.
• 26:23
  You know. Don't get caught up in the
• 26:25
  weeds. Just look at your own dog, learn
• 26:27
  your own dog, learn your own dog's behavior and and take it
• 26:32
  for what it is, which is information in a form of
• 26:35
  communication. Yes, and support them in
• 26:38
  whatever way you can. I agree.
• 26:40
  If you've enjoyed this episode, subscribe, rate and share us
• 26:45
  wherever you get your podcast. Also come on over to Instagram
• 26:49
  and engage with us at Sometimes Their Side Eye.
• 26:52
  Thanks for listening everybody. Talk to you next time.
• 26:56
  Bye bye.