Latest / The Real News Podcast / Baltimore residents fight City Council over controversial data center bill
Transcript
- 0:00Speaker 1: We all are well aware that we're not dealing with
- 0:03Speaker 1: good faith actors when it comes to the people who want.
- 0:06Speaker 2: To build data centers. I currently work at a data center.
- 0:10Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that I approve of data centers.
- 0:13Speaker 3: Every time it storms, it seems that a bunch of
- 0:15Speaker 3: lights go down in the city. I'm confused why we're
- 0:18Speaker 3: even talking about a data center if we can't keep
- 0:20Speaker 3: our own lights on.
- 0:21Speaker 4: Baltimore currently has a moratorium on new data center development,
- 0:25Speaker 4: while a city study examines the potential impacts that data
- 0:28Speaker 4: centers would have on our city. However, even though that
- 0:32Speaker 4: study hasn't been completed yet, a proposed city council bill
- 0:35Speaker 4: has residents here nervous that the door is creaking open
- 0:39Speaker 4: for data centers to come into the city and that
- 0:41Speaker 4: city council views this as inevitable. Council Bill 260174, sponsored
- 0:47Speaker 4: by city council member Felicia Porter, would require new data
- 0:50Speaker 4: center projects to go through a conditional use approval process.
- 0:54Speaker 4: That includes a health equity assessment. Now, residents who are
- 0:58Speaker 4: opposed to the bill say that the bill may be well-intentioned,
- 1:01Speaker 4: but what they want is a full data center ban
- 1:04Speaker 4: in Baltimore, not stricter guidelines for data centers to operate
- 1:08Speaker 4: in Baltimore. Now, the bill is going to get another
- 1:11Speaker 4: public hearing in front of the Baltimore City Council's Land
- 1:14Speaker 4: Use and Transportation Committee on the fourth floor of City
- 1:17Speaker 4: Hall on the morning of September 24th. And that meeting
- 1:21Speaker 4: is open to the public. Now, I was there in
- 1:23Speaker 4: the room during the last public hearing on Council Bill 260174,
- 1:28Speaker 4: which took place on August 27th, when the bill was
- 1:31Speaker 4: reviewed by the Baltimore City Planning Commission and residents were
- 1:35Speaker 4: given a chance to voice their public comments. Now, the
- 1:38Speaker 4: Planning Commission ultimately declined to support the bill, and opposition
- 1:42Speaker 4: from members of the public to data centers of any
- 1:45Speaker 4: sort was frankly overwhelming. But you don't got to take
- 1:47Speaker 4: my word for it. Watch for yourself.
- 1:50Speaker 5: We're here at the Baltimore City Planning Commission getting ready
- 1:53Speaker 5: to hear a bill. that would allow data centers to
- 1:56Speaker 5: come in if they had a health equity assessment into Baltimore.
- 1:59Speaker 5: This happened despite the fact that we have an existing moratorium.
- 2:03Speaker 5: And so we're here today to testify against the bill
- 2:05Speaker 5: because we think that the moratorium should be extended or
- 2:08Speaker 5: made into a ban so that we can stop data
- 2:10Speaker 5: centers from coming into the community.
- 2:12Speaker 6: Hi, I'm Blair from Cat Leys for America. I'm a
- 2:14Speaker 6: resident of Baltimore. And I'm here today because even though
- 2:17Speaker 6: there's a moratorium.
- 2:18Speaker 7: On AI data centers in the city, it seems.
- 2:20Speaker 6: Like they're late to groundwork.
- 2:22Speaker 8: Welcome to the City of Baltimore Planning Commission meeting number 095,
- 2:28Speaker 8: August 27, 2016.
- 2:29Speaker 9: The next item is number 8, City Council Bill number 26-017,
- 2:35Speaker 9: Zoning Conditional Use, Health Equity Assessment Data Centers.
- 2:40Speaker 10: I am Councilwoman Felicia Porter, and I represent Baltimore's 10th
- 2:43Speaker 10: District and chair the Public Health and Environment Committee, and
- 2:45Speaker 10: bill sponsored for 26-0174. The data center industry is looking
- 2:50Speaker 10: at Baltimore, at the peninsula, Fairfield, Hawkins Point, and other
- 2:53Speaker 10: industrial areas. At the same time, the federal government is
- 2:56Speaker 10: accelerating AI infrastructure development and scrutinizing state and local laws
- 3:01Speaker 10: in regards as obstacles to that development. This creates a
- 3:04Speaker 10: real risk for jurisdictions relying only on a temporary moratorium
- 3:08Speaker 10: without a permanent framework under development, which will face legal
- 3:11Speaker 10: and economic pressure. Other jurisdictions have already quickly learned how
- 3:15Speaker 10: that pressure can arrive.
- 3:16Speaker 6: Hill County, Texas.
- 3:18Speaker 10: Faced a hundred million dollars in federal lawsuits shortly after
- 3:21Speaker 10: adopting its moratorium and rescinded under that pause under the
- 3:24Speaker 10: weight of that litigation. This lesson is not that Baltimore
- 3:27Speaker 10: should surrender its authority. This lesson is that Baltimore must
- 3:30Speaker 10: exercise its authority carefully, deliberately, and now. A moratorium alone
- 3:34Speaker 10: without companion framework and process is exposed to taking legal challenges.
- 3:39Speaker 6: Moving bill 26-0174.
- 3:42Speaker 10: Through this process, hearings, testimonies, amendments, votes itself, is a
- 3:46Speaker 10: part of that good faith planning effort that the Supreme
- 3:49Speaker 10: Court has been requiring. Bill 26-0174 does not promote or
- 3:54Speaker 10: green light data centers. It strategically and administratively blocks development
- 3:59Speaker 10: at every step.
- 4:00Speaker 6: Of the way that does not align with community.
- 4:04Speaker 10: It creates public accountable process for deciding whether a qualifying
- 4:07Speaker 10: data center is appropriate for a particular location.
- 4:10Speaker 6: And under what conditions it may process.
- 4:13Speaker 10: This is the foundational right of the conditional use ordinance process.
- 4:17Speaker 10: Traditional zoning asks whether proposed use is compatible with the
- 4:20Speaker 10: land around it. A health equity assessment asks an equally
- 4:24Speaker 10: important question. What will this decision mean for the people
- 4:27Speaker 10: who already live in those conditions surrounding that land? Bill
- 4:33Speaker 10: 26-0174 puts that cumulative reality into the decision-making process of
- 4:37Speaker 10: the city council before approval, not after residents become ill,
- 4:41Speaker 10: household costs rise, and public infrastructure is strained. This is
- 4:46Speaker 10: environmental justice and its basic due diligence.
- 4:50Speaker 8: There may be some questions, but it took me a
- 4:54Speaker 8: while to sort of get this straight in my head,
- 4:57Speaker 8: but there are only written... submissions opposed to this bill
- 5:04Speaker 8: by people who are opposed to data centers.
- 5:07Speaker 6: And so are you. So it's kind of.
- 5:11Speaker 8: Odd because they're opposing a bill. And I think the
- 5:15Speaker 8: reason that's happening is because most people are starting with
- 5:19Speaker 8: the idea that there's a moratorium, meaning zero data centers.
- 5:23Speaker 8: And your bill provides a path, a difficult path, but
- 5:26Speaker 8: a path to data centers.
- 5:28Speaker 6: No, that's not correct. So it is not correct.
- 5:31Speaker 10: So the study adds a legal framework attached to the moratorium.
- 5:36Speaker 10: Right now, as shared within my remarks, right now we
- 5:39Speaker 10: are under a moratorium where we are legally unrestricted. We
- 5:44Speaker 10: are unprotected right now under this moratorium without the conjoining
- 5:50Speaker 10: health equity framework.
- 5:51Speaker 6: Attached to it.
- 5:51Speaker 8: I'm not sure I understand.
- 5:52Speaker 6: Yeah, so no worries. So when you have a data center,
- 5:55Speaker 6: and we currently have, you know, I will say....
- 5:59Speaker 10: If you have a data center that comes into the
- 6:00Speaker 10: city that's under a moratorium right now, right? If they
- 6:04Speaker 10: sue Baltimore City, right? They sue Baltimore City saying, you know,
- 6:07Speaker 10: this is unjust. We understand that data center developers are
- 6:10Speaker 10: getting very crafty in their arguments.
- 6:11Speaker 6: They're arguing First Amendment rights.
- 6:13Speaker 10: They are arguing other rights that provide them a pathway forward.
- 6:19Speaker 6: We are seeing that those moratoriums are getting overturned.
- 6:22Speaker 10: The successful moratoriums that have been upheld ARE ALWAYS ASSIGNED
- 6:28Speaker 10: AND OR CONNECTED TO A FRAMEWORK THAT ALLOWS GOOD FAITH
- 6:32Speaker 10: EFFORT TO SHOWCASE THAT THEY ARE DOING SOME SORT OF
- 6:35Speaker 10: REGULATORY FOOTPRINT WITH THAT MORATORIUM, NOT JUST SAYING THAT YOU
- 6:39Speaker 10: WANT A MORATORIUM.
- 6:41Speaker 6: SO THAT IS THE ISSUE.
- 6:44Speaker 9: OKAY.
- 6:45Speaker 8: ALTHOUGH WE ARE DOING THE STUDY. THE MORATORIUM IS NOT
- 6:50Speaker 8: JUST A MORATORIUM. A moratorium that just says moratorium because
- 6:56Speaker 8: we feel like it, I see the weakness that you're describing,
- 6:59Speaker 8: but a moratorium so we can study it seems like
- 7:02Speaker 8: a defensible position.
- 7:04Speaker 10: It's not because, again, what was mentioned in the Planning
- 7:07Speaker 10: Commission report was that there is a lack of health
- 7:11Speaker 10: equity associated with the current moratorium.
- 7:13Speaker 6: This answers that response.
- 7:16Speaker 8: But it is sort of an odd posture because... I THINK,
- 7:19Speaker 8: AND PEOPLE SHOULD SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES, BUT WE HAVE ALL
- 7:21Speaker 8: THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE OPPOSED TO DATA CENTERS AND THEY
- 7:24Speaker 8: WILL COME AND TESTIFY AND THEY'VE SUBMITTED TESTIMONY SAYING, YOU KNOW,
- 7:28Speaker 8: NO DATA CENTERS BECAUSE I THINK THEY SEE IN YOUR
- 7:31Speaker 8: BILL A A PATHWAY TO DATA CENTERS AND THEIR VIEW
- 7:35Speaker 8: IS WE DON'T WANT THEM AT ALL.
- 7:37Speaker 3: I'M NOT ARGUING WITH ANYONE.
- 7:41Speaker 8: I'M JUST TRYING TO GET STRAIGHT BECAUSE THEY HAVE ALL
- 7:43Speaker 8: THESE PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO COME UP AND SAY
- 7:45Speaker 8: NO DATA CENTERS BECAUSE THEY PERCEIVE, PERHAPS, YOUR BILL AS
- 7:50Speaker 8: LOOSENING THE RESTRICTIONS, WHICH IS ACTUALLY NOT HOW YOU INTEND
- 7:52Speaker 8: YOUR BILL.
- 7:53Speaker 6: IT'S NOT THE INTENT OF THE BILL. AND I WILL
- 7:55Speaker 6: ALSO CAVEAT.
- 7:58Speaker 10: How many data centers have an application now with the
- 8:01Speaker 10: current city of Baltimore that once this moratorium goes away,
- 8:05Speaker 10: if we do not have the regulatory framework in place,
- 8:07Speaker 10: how many of them will be actually going through the process?
- 8:11Speaker 1: But if I'm understanding the bill correctly, basically we currently
- 8:14Speaker 1: have a moratorium that is pending a health review, health
- 8:19Speaker 1: study review and the findings there. And that the bill
- 8:22Speaker 1: is saying we need to do something that is stricter
- 8:25Speaker 1: than a review, and stricter than a moratorium because a
- 8:28Speaker 1: moratorium can be overturned.
- 8:30Speaker 6: And basically the bill is saying.
- 8:33Speaker 1: We're going to provide a path to a data center,
- 8:35Speaker 1: but the path is going to be very difficult. And
- 8:37Speaker 1: so the hope, I believe, if I'm understanding correctly, is
- 8:41Speaker 1: that with the difficulty of the path, the data center
- 8:44Speaker 1: should not be able to be built unless it passes
- 8:48Speaker 1: very strict scrutiny that it likely will not pass. My
- 8:52Speaker 1: concern as a citizen of Baltimore is this. I understand,
- 8:56Speaker 1: we all know full well, we cannot legislate the hearts
- 9:00Speaker 1: and minds of people. We cannot say, we cannot put
- 9:03Speaker 1: into a bill, we all have to be nice to
- 9:04Speaker 1: each other.
- 9:05Speaker 6: However, we all.
- 9:08Speaker 1: Are well aware that we're not dealing with good faith
- 9:12Speaker 1: actors when it comes to the people who want to
- 9:14Speaker 1: build DAP centers. We've already heard testimony that there are
- 9:19Speaker 1: people in rooms looking, combing through every law, probably across
- 9:24Speaker 1: the country, with fine-tooth combs to see where they can
- 9:27Speaker 1: actually exploit loopholes. And my concern as a citizen of
- 9:31Speaker 1: the city and someone who cares about the city, who
- 9:33Speaker 1: has young people who I care about in the city,
- 9:36Speaker 1: who I want them to grow up in a place
- 9:38Speaker 1: with clean air, clean water, not having the sound pollution
- 9:42Speaker 1: and the headaches and all the things that come with
- 9:45Speaker 1: having a data center in their vicinity. My concern is
- 9:49Speaker 1: that if we know that we're dealing with bad faith actors,
- 9:52Speaker 1: then does it not Is it not our responsibility as
- 9:56Speaker 1: citizens and as people in government to deal with the
- 9:59Speaker 1: world that we have and not the world that we
- 10:02Speaker 1: want to be you know what I mean like deal
- 10:05Speaker 1: with the people who we know are building these which
- 10:08Speaker 1: are bad faith actors and not deal with the fantasy
- 10:12Speaker 1: of oh well you know it's going to be really
- 10:14Speaker 1: hard so people aren't going to be able to you
- 10:16Speaker 1: know pass the pass the test when people are looking
- 10:19Speaker 1: to do everything they can to subvert every possible obstacle
- 10:24Speaker 1: to getting these bills?
- 10:25Speaker 2: So I'm a long-time Baltimore resident, electrician with the IBW.
- 10:31Speaker 2: I'm here to speak against, obviously, data centers. Obviously, the
- 10:37Speaker 2: contradiction here is that majority of the work for the
- 10:39Speaker 2: IBW right now is data centers. I currently work at
- 10:43Speaker 2: a data center. That doesn't mean that I approve of
- 10:45Speaker 2: data centers. One of the things that I think that
- 10:48Speaker 2: we're all missing here is that Baltimore is a city
- 10:51Speaker 2: that has suffered from de-industrialization for a long period of time, obviously,
- 10:55Speaker 2: the shutdown of General Miller's, the shutdown.
- 10:57Speaker 6: Of Bethlehem Steel.
- 10:59Speaker 2: What we could be talking about instead of wasting our
- 11:01Speaker 2: time with this is we could be thinking about how
- 11:03Speaker 2: can we generate the power that the grid demands for
- 11:08Speaker 2: something like this. We could be talking about solar farms,
- 11:10Speaker 2: wind generation. We could be talking about battery storage. If
- 11:14Speaker 2: you look at PJM's own records, they say that Baltimore
- 11:19Speaker 2: and the Mid-Atlantic region is at risk of rolling blackouts,
- 11:24Speaker 2: as others have said, by 2028. Obviously, our grid needs investment.
- 11:29Speaker 2: Our infrastructure needs investment. The city needs investment. Investment from
- 11:35Speaker 2: Google Meta does not solve our issues. If we actually
- 11:40Speaker 2: care about having a city that functions, we're gonna need
- 11:43Speaker 2: to be thinking about where are we putting power, not
- 11:46Speaker 2: where are we taking power to. It's really just that simple.
- 11:52Speaker 2: And on that topic, if we're talking about actually maintaining
- 11:55Speaker 2: a labor force, we should be talking about how do
- 11:58Speaker 2: we get the young people in our city into the
- 12:01Speaker 2: trades that this type of work demands. by doing some
- 12:05Speaker 2: type of local hire mandate, something to make sure that
- 12:09Speaker 2: our young people are not just left in the wind.
- 12:12Speaker 2: Roughly 25% of young black men in the city aren't working.
- 12:16Speaker 2: Why are we not talking about what we can be
- 12:17Speaker 2: doing for our city? It just pains me. I just
- 12:21Speaker 2: see no solutions, but we're talking about something that can
- 12:24Speaker 2: help billionaires become trillionaires.
- 12:25Speaker 11: Baltimore ordered the nine month study specifically required to recommend
- 12:30Speaker 11: conditional use standards for data centers. Yet this bill is
- 12:33Speaker 11: already establishing conditional use framework. Why not finish the study
- 12:37Speaker 11: and let the evidence inform the legislation? Second, under this bill,
- 12:42Speaker 11: the company seeking approval prepares the health equity assessment, evaluating
- 12:46Speaker 11: its project's potential health and environmental impacts. Subjection C-9 even
- 12:52Speaker 11: requires that applicants to explain the compelling public interest in
- 12:56Speaker 11: its own project would serve. When a company has financial
- 12:59Speaker 11: stake in an outcome, relying heavily on evidence prepared by
- 13:03Speaker 11: that same company creates a conflict of interest. Why isn't
- 13:08Speaker 11: this assessment independent from the applicant seeking approval? Where is
- 13:12Speaker 11: the scientific independence in this process? Finally, if this legislation
- 13:17Speaker 11: is truly about putting community first, where is the community
- 13:21Speaker 11: process when this hearing is being held in the middle
- 13:24Speaker 11: of the day, as other people have stated? My friend,
- 13:27Speaker 11: she had to leave. Many working class Baltimoreans cannot take
- 13:30Speaker 11: off to participate. So we are urging that this study
- 13:35Speaker 11: be completed, that we require independent assessment, give affected communities
- 13:41Speaker 11: meaningful participation. Please oppose this bill and enact a ban
- 13:47Speaker 11: on data centers.
- 13:49Speaker 12: I'm a 29 year resident of Remington in Baltimore. I
- 13:53Speaker 12: want to tell you about a new building that's being built.
- 13:55Speaker 12: I know this hearing is not about that, but it's relevant.
- 13:58Speaker 12: This new building is going to use more energy than
- 14:02Speaker 12: Remington and Charles Village combined. It required the building of
- 14:06Speaker 12: a new electric substation. It's going to be as big
- 14:08Speaker 12: as the convention center. It's on the edge of stony run,
- 14:12Speaker 12: ground not appropriate for such a large building, requiring very
- 14:16Speaker 12: deep pilings. It's displacing animals already. There are deer on
- 14:20Speaker 12: my street. For the first time in 29 years, there
- 14:24Speaker 12: are deer on my street. My street is five blocks
- 14:26Speaker 12: from any wooded area. deer are walking five city blocks
- 14:30Speaker 12: to come to my street to eat all my flowers.
- 14:32Speaker 12: I don't care that they're eating my flowers because they're hungry.
- 14:36Speaker 12: This building also has a truck road. It's going to
- 14:40Speaker 12: result in the destruction of over 100 trees. There was
- 14:44Speaker 12: strong community opposition to this building. We were told that
- 14:49Speaker 12: this building would not be a data center.
- 14:52Speaker 6: We don't know if it's a data. I personally don't
- 14:54Speaker 6: know if it's a data center.
- 14:55Speaker 12: The amount of power it's using, the size of it
- 14:58Speaker 12: makes me wonder.
- 14:59Speaker 6: So I have some questions. How did this happen?
- 15:02Speaker 12: What's the definition of a data center? And I just
- 15:05Speaker 12: want to say that's why I want to ban. I
- 15:07Speaker 12: don't believe this is a legal issue. I believe it's
- 15:09Speaker 12: a trust issue. There are bad actors. The megas of
- 15:12Speaker 12: the world are bad actors.
- 15:14Speaker 6: And often our.
- 15:15Speaker 12: Representatives do not support us. Odette supported our community. We
- 15:19Speaker 12: voiced our opposition. And yet Zeke Cohen voted for this
- 15:23Speaker 12: and said data centers are inevitable.
- 15:25Speaker 1: And we need them.
- 15:26Speaker 7: I want to also remind everybody that people in Baltimore City, many,
- 15:32Speaker 7: many are living on the edge. They're living week to week.
- 15:35Speaker 7: They're living month to month already. Now, data centers are
- 15:40Speaker 7: needed for AI. So you have AI and data centers
- 15:43Speaker 7: working together. For some reason, we're rushing into unregulated, unplanned,
- 15:51Speaker 7: black box of technology.
- 15:52Speaker 6: I don't know why, except I think it's the.
- 15:56Speaker 7: Investors who are creating this, creating this bubble. So we
- 16:02Speaker 7: have people, regular people, striving to just get by. AI,
- 16:07Speaker 7: on the one hand, is displacing jobs.
- 16:10Speaker 6: It has displaced jobs.
- 16:12Speaker 7: Everybody involved in AI says it's going to massively destroy jobs.
- 16:21Speaker 6: Sam Altman bragged about it.
- 16:24Speaker 7: On the other hand, we have data centers which have
- 16:28Speaker 7: raised utility rates for people around the city. As they're built,
- 16:32Speaker 7: they will raise more utility rates. Now we have people
- 16:35Speaker 7: who are barely getting by.
- 16:37Speaker 6: What happens to them? I love Baltimore. It's a fantastic city.
- 16:43Speaker 6: Fell in love here.
- 16:44Speaker 3: Now we'll have lots of friends and I'm connected to
- 16:46Speaker 3: a lot of local art communities.
- 16:49Speaker 6: It's an important city to me and everyone in this room.
- 16:53Speaker 3: And I say that because there's a lot of conversations
- 16:56Speaker 3: going on about water, about power. Every time it storms,
- 17:00Speaker 3: it seems that a bunch of lights go down in
- 17:02Speaker 3: the city. I'm confused why we're even talking about a
- 17:04Speaker 3: data center if we can't keep our own lights on.
- 17:08Speaker 3: I see streets and potholes all over the place, and
- 17:11Speaker 3: I would really like Baltimore to be a city that
- 17:13Speaker 3: is ready for something like a data center.
- 17:16Speaker 6: And to be clear, I.
- 17:16Speaker 3: Want a ban on data centers. But if I'm looking
- 17:20Speaker 3: at the infrastructure we currently have just to support homes,
- 17:23Speaker 3: just to support me, just to support my friends and
- 17:27Speaker 3: family using regular water, I turn the heat down on
- 17:32Speaker 3: my water heater. I'm doing what I can to try
- 17:35Speaker 3: to make sure that I'm a good citizen in a drought,
- 17:37Speaker 3: in a moment of contention. So I am asking council
- 17:41Speaker 3: to put a ban on data centers, period, until we
- 17:44Speaker 3: deal with potholes. Until I can drive my car and
- 17:49Speaker 3: not worry about it, period. Until we can deal with
- 17:54Speaker 3: power outages after storms. Until we can make sure that
- 17:57Speaker 3: all of our neighbors have access to grocery stores. that
- 18:00Speaker 3: are healthy for them in their local neighborhoods.
- 18:03Speaker 13: I'm a long-time participant in Baltimore's professional filmmaking community. I'm
- 18:07Speaker 13: also a long-time member of IATSE Local 487. So I
- 18:14Speaker 13: think I'll kind of address my concerns in terms of,
- 18:18Speaker 13: you know, in sort of a cinematic fashion with a
- 18:21Speaker 13: metaphor of sorts. When I think of the evolution of
- 18:25Speaker 13: data centers as a topic of debate in the public consciousness,
- 18:28Speaker 13: I can't help but think of vampires as a metaphor
- 18:32Speaker 13: for what they offer, both in how they mystify the
- 18:35Speaker 13: impressionable and how they have the power to leech resources
- 18:38Speaker 13: and destroy communities. When I look at this bill, it
- 18:42Speaker 13: almost feels like they're saying, hey, vampires want to come
- 18:47Speaker 13: to Baltimore. We want to lay the groundwork to only
- 18:50Speaker 13: allow the right vampires to come into the city.
- 18:53Speaker 6: Vampires are risky.
- 18:54Speaker 14: We want to make sure we know what a vampire
- 18:57Speaker 14: is and then We want to make sure we get,
- 19:00Speaker 14: you know, the old money vampires who have accumulated their
- 19:03Speaker 14: wealth over hundreds of years and only bite certain kinds
- 19:06Speaker 14: of people.
- 19:07Speaker 13: Maybe vampires that'll make some of us super hot and
- 19:09Speaker 13: young forever. We want the best vampires for the community.
- 19:13Speaker 13: I don't think I'm alone when I think of that
- 19:18Speaker 13: and I go, what if we just did no vampires?