Latest / Radically Genuine / 173. Make America Resilient Again & the Courage to Feel w/ Kim Witczak

Transcript

173. Make America Resilient Again & the Courage to Feel w/ Kim Witczak · Radically Genuine

• Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (00:01.708) Welcome to the radically genuine podcast. am Dr. Roger McFillin. Light pierces darkness, often not through thunderous proclamations, but through the quiet courage of the brokenhearted who rise each dawn to speak truth. Kind of like drops of water wearing away at stone, they persist, bearing witness, sharing stories, refusing to be silenced. And in their unwavering devotion to truth. We see echoes of ancient prophets who stood alone against empires armed with nothing but their testimony and an unshakable faith that light will always overcome the dark. Today's a very important day. We're recording here on Valentine's Day, February 14. Yesterday, the 13th of February 2025, a seismic shift occurred in American healthcare. Bobby Kennedy's confirmation as Secretary of Health and Human Services coincided with President Trump's executive order establishing the Make America Healthy Again commission, a watershed moment in pharmaceutical oversight as its core lies in a mandate to investigate the widespread use and potential dangers that exist within psychiatric drugs, across the food industry, and in what really has amounted to a sick care system. These psychiatric drugs have harmed countless American lives. But today's story isn't about political appointments or executive orders. It's really about the transformative power of loss and how personal tragedy can forge warriors for truth. For decades, a movement has been building led by parents who lost children, wives who've lost husbands, patients who lost years. and advocates who've lost faith in a system they once trusted. They stood against the tide of institutional resistance armed with nothing but their stories and an unwavering commitment to prevent others from suffering similar fates. Today I'm honored to welcome back a woman whose personal crucible of grief became a catalyst for national change. Kim Witzak turned her pain into purpose emerging as one of the most influential voices in a Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (02:29.12) in global drug safety. As a consumer representative on the FDA advisory committee, she brings an unflinching honesty to the evaluation of new medications. But her real power lies in her courage to speak truth to that power, challenging the narrative around antidepressant drugs and championing informed consent and medical care for over 25 years. And she's shown us that the most profound changes often begin with a single voice refusing to be silenced. Her story reminds us that in our darkest moments, we can become vessels of light for others. Today, she returned to the Radically Genuine podcast to share her journey and the remarkable transformation we're witnessing in American healthcare. We're often taught to fear our pain, to silence it with pills and prescriptions. But in embracing our deepest wounds, we find our greatest gifts. God's presence in our darkness, truth in our tears, purpose in our struggle. Those who dare to feel everything discover that pain is not our enemy. It's actually our doorway to love, to justice, to who we were truly meant to become. And this is Kim's story. Kim, welcome back to the Radically Genuine Podcast. Kim Witczak (03:51.444) thanks for having me. I'm really excited to have this conversation. think it's ironic that it's Valentine's Day, which is the day of love. I think love, you know, it's kind of where I started my whole story, right? Losing my husband, but it's also coming back to like the love that exists within us and coming back to really my journey of finding the love because if we lead with love versus fear. There's a lot of great things that can come from it. So anyways, I'm really happy. And then of course, after yesterday's big announcement, I've been praying for this movement for over 21 years since I lost my husband. anyways, it's, know we're going to have a great conversation. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (04:39.756) Yeah, I am interested first to just know your immediate reaction to the events of yesterday when you're talking, you know, a few decades, you've done this work. And you've been doing this work when it wasn't necessarily popular or it wasn't in the mainstream. You know, it's a little bit it's easier for people like me to get on this episode and are on the radically genuine podcast, speak out on social media because of the work that you've done earlier in your career. So you've seen the transition where these drugs were promoted to us as as life saving as an advancement as decreasing stigma in mental health, where your voice speaking out for drug safety, medical freedom and informed consent was all often quieted by these large voices and in in institutions and the general media. I my heart goes out to you for the struggle that you've gone through. Here we are over 20 years later. What is your initial reaction to the events of yesterday? Kim Witczak (05:38.876) mean, I was beyond because, you know, like you mentioned, I've been doing this work for 21 years, but it started from a place of truth for me. It's always been about truth, right? It was just telling the story. And I was like shocked learning the things that I had learned about the system and how a pill was what was thrown. You gotta remember the time when my husband was put on this drug and how it really was the impetus of what I've done, my advocacy work. It was advertised all over the media, know, the little bouncing ball, Zoloft is safe and effective. have chemical imbalance. It was the years of the Prozac being the happiness pill. And so that was the era that we lived in. And then when Woody died, I had no idea that in 91, they had hearings and it was on the emergence of violence and suicide in Prozac. Now we fast forward. Now Woody died in 2003. So that became like, oh, we're getting warnings. This is going to be our mission. for kids and 2004 it was kids, right? And then 2006 went up to young adults to age 24. And to this day, there still is no warning. So I remember when we would go to these FDA hearings, of course, everybody, the whole system even back then would be like, oh, you're just a widow looking for an excuse. You have to like, blaming the victim. And I remember like, Of course, I had no background in any of this, right? Advocacy or speaking out, but I like knew who my husband was. I'm like, no, no, no. Like he, he went from not sleeping because he had an excitement, new job, excited, you know, anxiety, probably a little bit of, know, what that's new going to be. And then he went from head outside the body to hanging in five weeks. I'm like, no, you are not going to blame my husband. And that's what I, and then I start meeting other families like that were like, a kid they moved and their kid like all of hung themselves and Pfizer made it seem like it was a sex act gone wrong and that was a little 12 year old Matthew Miller who was like one of, to this day is one of my favorite families, Candace Downing, the little 13 year old who got put on Zola for test anxiety. So when you start putting all this, I'm like wait a minute, we're all coming together, we were all like just. Kim Witczak (07:55.94) normal people living lives and I'm pretty sure test anxiety, starting a new job. and then my friends, the Winters, their daughter who had a breakup and she's found hanging. Like, come on. Like I was like, wait a minute, something doesn't make sense. So you'd go to these hearings and it was story after story after story. And they're still like, your anecdotes, these are completely safe and effective drugs. We've seen it in our clinical trials. This is just a bunch of stories being told. But through that, I have learned the power of stories. And I also have seen that when you're speaking from truth, can't silence people. Like you can't silence me because I, and I will always have truth on my side, my truth, my story. And so anyways, but so that was, so when I heard yesterday's, I'm like, my God, for all the families, all of us that were out there. who have been saying, we weren't out there saying when everybody else, because the other side, and trust me, there were a lot of people which we still see today and even probably more, which is these drugs saved my life. Okay, that's great. That's great for you. I mean, I don't know, it's probably a placebo effect, but that's great. But we're not talking about that. We're talking about all these people whose lives have been completely destroyed. And so we have to have both. So for me, I have to say that yesterday when I, you know, well, not only when Kennedy got confirmed, but when I went through and looked at that commission and saw that the psychiatric drugs were on the list and not in the way that past presidential have talked about it being mental health is a, you know, it's more treatments. That's how it's always been. We're going to deal with mental health, but it's always been from the angle of more drugs, more pills, more. So Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (09:38.99) Thank Kim Witczak (09:53.628) I think the fact that we, and clearly mental health is getting worse. And so I'm like, this is the perfect time. And I feel like there is no wrong time. And I think it probably needed all, you know, of course it wasn't fast enough for me, you know, cause I would have wanted this a long time ago. It's why I prayed. But sometimes it needed the whole cultural shift and what happened during COVID that opened the eyes of people. and brought new people into it and more people. And I was reminded of something in my reading today, that God never starts anything big. It always starts small. It's like a little seed. And I have to remember, I played a seed in this whole movement. So I'm grateful that it's a movement now and it's gonna get some big attention to it. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (10:47.138) Yes, for those who are not aware, there was a massive mandate from the president yesterday that includes assess the prevalence of and threat posed by the prescription of SSRIs, anti psychotics, mood, stable stabilizers and stimulants. So this is the first time an American president has committed to truly understanding what so many of us have known for decades, that these drugs came to market. under fraud and corruption, that there's a mass amount of people being harmed daily and continue to be gaslit that when they suffer from these adverse consequences, they are labeled as mentally ill. To support some of the great points that you made, I have cried with mothers who lost their teenager after a suicide event not too long after being prescribed an SSRI and they were never suicidal prior to that. And so this is how they get dismissed. The parents get dismissed and invalidated by saying, well, they had a mental health condition and suicide is part of this condition and they died by mental illness. No, they died by a drug harm. They dropped, died by inappropriate prescribing of harmful drugs without informed consent. They died by malpractice and almost all of these parents, family members, They were never told the truth, but in their heart they knew something was wrong. And this is the sad part of all of this is that continuously we have seen a steady increase in these drugs being prescribed for conditions that exceed severe depression or anxiety. Now they're being prescribed for premenstrual dysphoria, gut issues. a whole range of conditions. That's how widespread the brainwashing and manipulation has become. And remember, they're often put on these drugs for normal life events. And that's going to be part of our story today. Because we have lost a battle with being able to communicate to the American people about what it means to go through life. We are under this pharmaceutical iron curtain of information that sends these messages. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (13:14.85) that if you struggle, if you feel pain, there's something broken within you and you have to rely on the external medical authority for this pill to fix it. And I think your story is more than just going through the tragedy. It is actually the redemption, the reclamation, the process that you went through after the loss of your husband. Now, I know you've told this story many times. You've even told it on an earlier podcast that I had with you, but I am interested to to know little bit more about who Woody was because this is where I get from family members and parents, my son, my daughter, my brother, my sister, my husband, my wife, they were not suffering from severe depression. It wasn't like they were overwhelmed by hopelessness and they were contemplating suicide every day. They were just struggling in the ways so much of us can connect with a breakup, a loss. struggling with self confidence, a new job, some difficulty sleeping over stress. All of these people have been prescribed these drugs outside any bounds of safety, efficacy, or even long term study. So we have to break that narrative. Can you tell us about who Woody was as a man? And then how he ended up getting to the point where he had such an adverse reaction he took his own life. Kim Witczak (14:37.096) Sure. Well, first of all, Woody was full of life. Like, he loved life. was a, like, he was the party when you walked into a room. You felt his energy. I mean, it's what attracted me initially to him is that he was funny. He wasn't afraid to take on things. He was always trying to, he'd always say, The first one to lose is the second one to lose second place is the first one to lose. So he was always like competitive. He was always taking on things. And during this time, it's Woody wasn't depressed. That's why I was like, we just were celebrating about to celebrate our 10 year anniversary. Woody started his dream job with a startup company because he was super into the environment he loved. And it was like an energy efficient lighting where they can double the double the lighting for half the cost or some like I don't remember exactly, but he was super excited about it. We just booked our like 10 year anniversary trip. We booked a trip with his parents to go to Hawaii. Literally during this whole time, Woody was still running. He wanted to train for a marathon, but for whatever reason, once he started the drug, his body just felt like crap. And so he goes, Kim, I can't run like the 10, 12 miles that he was doing. He was still running. three miles a day. here's what's and thank God he was super anal because which by the way, the companies try to make it seem like he had OCD. I'm like, yeah, whatever. And that's another story. But he was so like he kept track of how many miles he kept on his sprint ran on his shoes, because it was about keeping his self healthy, right? And his feet healthy and making sure his shoes didn't have too many miles. So I had his running journal, he ran the all the that the weeks leading up to his death. He was a guy who could not have, like, he could have one drink, they used to call him two brew Tim, because on the second one, he'd be like wasted, right? So he could, he never really drank, he didn't drink coffee, because he didn't like the way it felt. You know, he didn't like Nyquil, and I believe because he didn't like the way it made him, he was still hungover in the morning from Nyquil. So he just never, he literally drank orange juice. Kim Witczak (16:56.994) milk, Snapple tea, I remember Snapple was a big one. And so that's why like when he died, I was like, when I got that call from my dad, that he's dead, I was like, what like everything in my of course, my world exploded into zillion pieces. But I couldn't even compute, like I literally couldn't even compute like I was out of town on business, I would never have left out of town on business. if I knew Woody was struggling and thought like his life was going to end. Like he didn't have a history of this. Like he didn't have a history. And when I say like being an entrepreneur and having startup and you know, you, you're an entrepreneur, you wake up at three in the morning. Like that's kind of normal and you have anxiety. That's normal being like this and having sleeplessness or the 3am wake up call is normal. It's not something. And Woody didn't go in there thinking I want a pill. He just went in because he needed trouble. He needed sleep. He was a guy that needed eight hours of sleep. It was like a joke, you know, with everybody who knew him. And so he didn't go in searching for this, but the doctor quickly gave it to him and it was sample packs and said, this will take the edge off and help you sleep. And it was a three week sample pack of Zoloft. And I wasn't even in the country when he got it. It was my busy time of this, the, you my career. I was in New Zealand. So I wasn't even there. was, was just a, he came home as a sample pack. So no, and I guarantee you that if he was told, oh, it's an antidepressant, he would have actually probably thought, oh, why are you giving me an antidepressant? I'm not depressed. But he didn't even know. He just trusted and did what a lot of us do, which is blindly trust the system. And so that's really, um, a little bit about who Woody was. He was smart. He was challenging things. It's funny. He was actually, ironically, taken on, he was taken on a couple issues. If he didn't see something that was right, he would do something about it, like taking on cell phone companies that were going to put towers in our neighborhood. And, and then he was also taken on learning that schools were getting money from federal government agencies for the more ADHD, you know, Kim Witczak (19:20.39) whatever you call them, that the teachers would say that the kids had because I guess they got more federal money. I had no idea who was doing that until after he died. I met some people who said he was working on this committee. was some group that he was involved in. So that's who Woody was. So I'm pretty sure Woody would not have just said, life's out, I'm done. And we were just starting to talk about having kids. So. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (19:46.094) Yeah, there's a couple of important points that I think I have to relate to the audience is one of the things is that, you know, Woody was very sensitive to chemicals, to drugs, to even alcohol, right? And these drugs affect everybody differently. So you see these anecdotes where people will say, I took it and nothing happened to me, or someone might say, well, it helped me, it did take the edge off because there was some form of emotional blunting. And we're not denying that Drugs have drug effects and drug effects will impact people differently. But the concept of take the edge off, I think is so misleading and it's so harmful because it sends the message. There's two messages really. There is something that can take the edge off without any consequence. And two, somehow this edge represents a place where we can't be. That Kim Witczak (20:39.88) you Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (20:40.622) It's a dangerous place for us to be and we have to walk back from the edge. And what does that mean, the edge? Like we're about to lose our sanity. What we cannot handle the stress of that particular moment. It's dangerous to you. I know that you have witnessed what I have witnessed is that that message is part of a greater marketing campaign to get people to fear. their own internal experience, one that is absolutely necessary for us. So Woody was going through something when he started his next job, an opportunity for him to kind of grow through that challenge. What do you think he was going through? Let's imagine a scenario where he never went and saw that doctor. What would have eventually just been the outcome for him in your opinion, knowing him as well as you have? Kim Witczak (21:21.16) Mm-hmm. Kim Witczak (21:38.84) he would have worked through it because I think, you know, where he was getting some of that, it was a new startup company, right? So he was used to having a paycheck every day. He was used to knowing what he was going to be doing every single day. It was walking in the unknown. It was walking through uncertainty. It was walking into something new. And that is not like, that's where the growth is. Woody would have passed. I mean, no different than when we got married or when Woody took his first job or, you know, that is. He was like looking for ways, like he was, he was thinking, how am going to get through this? And, I think, and I wish that he would never have been told that this pill would take the edge off because I think what there were so many other things that could have been done first, you know, like, I mean, he didn't even have an opportunity to, to feel it because It took the edge off. All right. I mean, he had had outside his body telling me he was looking in. He was bawling. He didn't know what was happening to him. He was pacing. He thought his life was falling apart. And I remember when he was telling me his head was when I got back from, you know, being gone for three weeks, he was by himself going through this. So it took the edge off, but he but he's now thinking it's him. Right? Like whatever this head outside the body. And I remember like telling him I'm like, gosh, if your job is so stressful, because that's what I thought maybe it was, you should just quit. We'll be fine. We learned how to our life with one paycheck so that we would always have the option for when we had kids that I could stay home. So we never lived over our means. So he could have quit. There's so many things. He didn't even have the opportunity to do any of those because here he thinks that he's losing his mind. And that was chemical and and you know, I'm gonna respond to your thing about Where we don't people like well work for me. Well, great like all like all drugs have an effect, right? Like alcohol is an effect Nyquil has an effect on on people and they'll say well, that was such a low dose I hear that all the time It doesn't matter if it's a low dose if your body can't process something. It doesn't matter if it's us. It's the first pill Kim Witczak (23:57.284) or it's like you've been on it, like your body isn't being able to process something. anyways, I think there would have been, think Woody would have thrived. He would have more than succeeded. He would have, his running would have started. I would have been in town maybe, you know, I was out of town during this whole time. So there's just so many things I look back and go, wow, take the edge off. It sure did. He doesn't hurt anymore. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (24:24.174) Yeah, I think we can all empathize with being in that position at some point in our life who has not gone through sleepless nights, who has not felt the stress of the uncertainty of something new. And for anyone who started a new position or started a company or felt the responsibility to take care of your family, who didn't go through that difficult process of trying to figure it out and knowing the pressure might be on you at that time. But who's to say we can't handle that? You who's to say a teenager can't handle the rejection of their peers, a difficult time in their lives. We continuously send this message that weakens all of us and doesn't even provide us the opportunity. And then in the worst case scenarios, what we're told is it's even worse than this is just to take the edge off. We're saying there's something different about you. You can't handle things like other people. Maybe you have a genetic vulnerability or a chemical imbalance of the brain and you need this medicine because you are mentally ill. And so the power of that story has conditioned generations. And that's where we see some of the backlash to like a Bobby Kennedy movement or Kim Witzak advocacy is that they're saying, well, I'm broken and I need this medicine. And I think when we talk about love, we can have compassion for that person, but no. that they are under the veil of such conditioning that they can't see their own divinity past it. And so I think this is the opportunity to get more into your own personal story because we all know the story of Woody and what happened and you've done such an amazing job of advocating on behalf of him and millions out there like him who's gone through what he went through. But I don't know if we necessarily know what you went through. Kim Witczak (26:17.8) Mm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (26:18.722) the months and the years following that the dark places that you were in, in your life and you know how you did get through it because clearly you were up against the edge in life losing your husband in such a tragedy. Would you be willing to kind of just share your experience in grief and the aftermath of this tragedy? Kim Witczak (26:39.972) Sure. So this is a new space for me to, you know, to get vulnerable with my own personal journey. It's easy for me to tell Woody's story because I've been doing it for so long. So, yeah, it, first of all, when I think back to being a kid and like being rejected, I go, you know, I was this quiet kid. I didn't ever actually stir the pot. Like I was a kid that sat in the corner. I did what the teacher said. Like my mom, still look at all my report cards and I go, was I really like, like this good, like I never stirred the pot. And trust me, I had, you know, tried like boyfriends like trying to like not even, we're not boyfriends. I tried to make them like me, but they didn't. So I was rejected all the time. And I think about that now, like I would have for sure, had to like, we never, our high school, closed. And so there were all these like school closings that were happening when I was a kid. And we never moved and I didn't want to go there. And all this stuff now would have been easily been able to be medicated. But a medication is not going to fix any of all of what I just described as a kid, right? So I also have. And so that was just part of our life back then. You just had to deal with and maybe it's also the way I grew up. My parents like you kind of have to deal with things. But I cried a lot and I kept a lot of things to myself and to my cat and that's why but I also had faith like I always grew up in a Family that faith was something that I didn't know what it necessarily meant, but I went to church, you know I don't think I really understood how important that peace was until Woody died But I remember Like obviously when I got that call my life Literally, that was the last thing I was expecting right? I had no idea I thought wouldn't maybe hit his head So when my dad called to tell me he died and was found hanging I was like everything and like I almost feel like I was outside my body I was looking at what my whole shell everything just blew up. I Everything that I thought like everything I didn't know who I was like I didn't I mean I had to relearn everything I had to relearn how to go to target Kim Witczak (28:57.48) because Woody did it all. Like he did that so I could do my job. Like he, I had to learn how to pay bills. I had to learn. I was scared. was scared. I had, I didn't, mean, literally that was when I started learning what a personal relationship or faith and what we're born with. Because I remember after Woody's funeral, was downstairs looking at all these life-size posters of Woody and I am bawling and I'm gripping my like I wanted to pull my heart out of my body so heartaches real and for people who've had it it's real I just wanted the pain and I kept crying God take my pain and use it it doesn't you know good and I had no idea what that was gonna mean I just wanted this out and I remember going to the doctor And the doctor said to me, do you think you need something? And I said, do I need something? I go, I think the pill killed me. And she like is completely is looking at me like I'm crazy, right? And I go, but aren't I supposed to hurt? Like my husband died. She goes, no, but you don't need to. You don't need to. Because I was like suffering. Like, and here's the thing. Like I guess I was able, I took on this part of me because I think when something like as tragic as what happened to Woody, I'm just trying to figure out what the hell just happened. And so I just started, I didn't go come into this going, it must have been the antidepressants. You know, that's not where I started. I was just down in an investigation of like, how did this happen? You're just trying. And I think that inquiry into and the questions that you ask are really kind of the key because it just, gives you the kind of questions you ask is part of your healing process too. Like, what does this all mean? Where is like, it's just, you're trying to grasp at things. so I just want everybody to know, like, I didn't come out going, I'm going to take on Pfizer. I'm going to take on the FDA. I'm going to take on that. That was part of what I did to help make sense of what happened because we are smart and blindsided. So I think I use that, advocacy as part of my, that I feel like Kim Witczak (31:23.694) I said a prayer that basically said to God, here I am. And so I answered something and I just kept following things that were like breadcrumbs that were handed to me as I say it. But when that doctor said, I think you need something, I remember just looking at her going, no. And so I went to the suicide support groups that now I know who funds them because they were all like telling me. honey, we did. And they literally patted me on the head said, honey, we didn't see our loved ones. I'm like, No, I think it's the drugs. And I went once and everything in my body was like, I can't be here. And but I thought I had to go there because that's what you do when you lose somebody to suicide. go to suicide support group, right? But one of my friends is like, Why are you going there? And I go, I don't know. Aren't I supposed to do it? She goes, No, why? And I go, wait. So I saw myself starting to like, owned my own intuition and my what was speaking to me because I said no to the suicide support group and I went to a grief group at church and that was probably one of the best thing I ever did because I saw losing and life and grief through this lens of faith and and that you can't actually Bypass grief like if you do like what you resist persists like it it comes back And you have to go the only way to get through the other side is you have to go through it It means you have to feel it. It means you have to see the darkness and I'll never forget this visual of a Mountain it was like a train going through a mountain and and it was really really dark and you can't go around the mountain you can't go around but you had to go through it And as you're going through the mountain in this train, it's dark, dark, dark, and you never think you're gonna get through to the other side. But then you see a little pinhole of light and a little bit more. And as you get closer, you're like, wait. And then you get through and you're like, there's this whole other world that comes from knowing you made it through something. And so, you know, I also think, Kim Witczak (33:45.544) I've had some really amazing, I have been open to trusting signs and believe that this is a bigger mission that had nothing to do with me. And I think there was something in when, that's why I feel like I have this unique perspective, because I'm out doing DC stuff, which was not who the girl I was. But when we were throwing Woody's ashes out in the middle of Lake Michigan, where I was like, I can't believe he's dead. even know who I am. I'm a widow. I have to start all over. All of in the middle of Lake Michigan, I kid you not, there's this red book floating right by us, the edge of the boat. And I go, and it was my brother-in-law, and I look over and I go, does that say what I think it does? And he goes, yeah. In gold letters, it said the Holy Bible, and it floated right by us. And at that moment, I knew that there was something so great in that God was saying, trust me, trust me, which meant I had to surrender to the unknown that I don't know where I'm going. And also that this isn't the end of your story, Kim. I heard him saying, this isn't the end of your story. And I know that it's through that pain. that I have grown, I've had to like experiment things, like it certainly wasn't a pill, but I did my own source of numbing. I got into a relationship right after Woody because I didn't want to hurt. I didn't want to deal with this. And so I got into a relationship to numb that part of me while I was, I could go do all this other stuff. but I didn't want to face this. And when that relationship ended, and it ended suddenly, and it was extremely painful because guess what? I had to go back and deal with the stuff that I didn't really like to see that I'm enough and to go and realize that I was looking for things on the outside to make me whole and to make me complete. And I am complete as it is. I am worthy to be here. Kim Witczak (36:09.508) And I have, our voice is beyond powerful if we tap into something that is so much greater than this pill that we've been talked and told to believe or outside us. I'll never forget, interesting, this is funny, which now kind of makes sense too, but right after I graduated from college, I always had this like, Flem at the back of my throat like and it was because I was eating like crap, right? But I went to the doctor and because my mom was a nurse at the pediatrician so she's like I could always get like free I went to the doctor and I'm like, yeah I have this stuff in my throat and he goes and he literally because I just graduated and he got from college he goes Well, you know what that is. That is because you're super stressed. You don't have a job and I was like thinking to myself, I don't think I'm stressed. I'm like, I'm kind of like in summertime. I'm not worried about a job, but he was trying to tell me I was stressed, right? And he gave me a prescription of Valium. And my mom about like, I knew nothing about this. I went down to my mom and her like at the pediatrics part of her, clinic, and she like took it and ripped it up. And I started looking back at that going, wait, that doctor that was like, and then that was like 90. And you know, and a lot of these drugs were just starting to come out, right? And I was like, he just like threw Valium and told me I was stressed. And I remember thinking, wow, I'm not stressed. And it was almost like that same doctor that I went to who said, you don't need to feel grief. Yeah, like, who is running that system? And so I, know, 21 years later, it's still, I am super curious about our spiritual connection, do believe it's part of the transformation that growth only comes through traumas and pain if we allow it. And I think that is what I, you know, I believe that we're souls in a human, having a human experience. Our bodies are just the meat suit that lives in like that I call it. And so what we put in it is going to affect, our little like Kim Witczak (38:26.536) person that's in here that's been a part of us, all those generations and you know the different versions of yourself, the scared little second grader that you never paid attention, that person if you actually look at it today, that person helped me get me to where I'm at today. But and so we have to reframe all of the conversations we're having about healing. I still go back and go if I would have taken that Zoloft or the pill that she would have given me. Would I be here? I don't know that I would have even, I would have probably just been numbed out. And trust me, again, that relationship that I tried to numb it out with, I had to come back and still do the work. Cause wherever you go, there you are. And so we don't, a pill doesn't take away and we want fast, we want quick fixes, but the reality is the beauty comes from going through it. And that's how we, and we have to like tell people and help people understand because, know, professionally, I'm in advertising. that's what I've done my whole life. I understand how to sell hope. know how to sell fear. And so I went, so that was another lens. I think that, you know, now that I look at my life and how it's played out, that God gave me this ability to also see things through a marketing lens and who's, and the stories that have been sold to us. And so I, know, fear and fear and hope and love, they're all kind of this same coin opposite sides. And, you know, we are afraid. I mean, trust me, that's part of how we were made, right? Initially, God gave us this ability to know that there's fear. So get away from like a lion or somebody who's chasing you. But we've now like, we're afraid of everything. We got to shift the conversation. I was afraid, trust me. But guess what? was afraid every single, cause remember I wasn't the girl who took on, I was the girl who sat in the corner. I didn't stir the pot. I didn't want people to dislike me. And I was facing all of my fears by going ahead and speaking out at the FDA. I mean, I was up till four in the morning rewriting a three minute speech to the FDA, but I kept showing up. Kim Witczak (40:52.228) and faced it because I had to face it. So anyways, that's a long, I probably have a lot of things in there, but that's 21 years of some of my work. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (41:03.596) While there was so much pearls of wisdom and brilliance throughout that time you just spent there, and I do appreciate your willingness and your vulnerability. There's a couple of things I want to follow up because I know they're so meaningful to so many people. One of the reasons why people do turn to drugs to try to escape what they're feeling and you were beautiful in the way that you described what resistant continues to persist is that they have this belief that the pain is never ending and that it's too much for them to bear. So I'm curious to know how you would answer that and what your experience has been over time. Kim Witczak (41:46.642) Well, pain's real, right? I mean, I think that pain that somebody has, but I think there has to start with a belief that you're gonna get, there's that hope at the other end that you're gonna get through it. Like, it's not, you have to believe it's not gonna be a part of you. You have to believe that, and it's probably, maybe it stems from my belief in faith, like, and knowing that you are, are, like, we were never gonna, well, first of all, Nowhere has it ever been written that our life was going to be without problems, pain. We were never guaranteed a perfect life. And I think that illusion of like a pill or we're going to be happy and we're not supposed to feel is been something that we have been, we've been sold or we really want as humans because pain is hard. But I also believe that it starts with telling different stories and telling the stories because at the end of the day, the pain, like even when I would say things and talk back, I was still telling a story about what happened to me. And that's the difference I look to me versus for me. And I now shifted the wordings that I use that maybe all of the experience and that extreme pain that I had that happened at when Woody died. was for me, but I think so many times we take this idea of like, everything like, life happens to me. Well, maybe it's actually for you if we start looking at it differently, right? And, cause what is, that is what is. I remember going to, and I've done a lot of personal transformation stuff because that is the way that I chose to go is to feel it and be curious about myself as a human. And I remember, was talking about something and I was probably using the story of like, like, you know, Woody died and I'm a victim. You know, I must've said something. And he goes, can I stop you? And I go, and he goes, no. What happened is Woody died. Everything else that you're telling me right now is the stories that you've made around what happened. And so if you can accept what is, like what is doesn't mean you have to like it. It's just what happened. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (44:09.806) Mm. Kim Witczak (44:09.864) And then from there, you know, telling a different story. And I realized half my problems in life for me have been the stories I've told about myself and I've told around something. And I've had to learn to tell different stories because they're just stories. So why can't we flip the script? Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (44:32.044) I remember what my father died on his 50th birthday. It was sudden. We didn't expect it. And I was 25 years old. I was the oldest. I had a younger brother. My younger sister was still a teenager and I had a one year old daughter when he passed. And I remember the grief process so distinctly because I wasn't just grieving the loss of my father. I was grieving a future that I created in my mind. about my, you my daughter and future kids having a grandfather. So I was grieving the loss for them, even my children who weren't yet born. I was grieving the loss of an idea about what my life was going to be, you know, and how we all picture our lives in a future that it's supposed to play out in a certain way. And I wonder that if that life played out the way that I created it in my mind, if that was really for other reasons, because this is what I was told my life should be. Maybe it was seeking out the approval of my father in ways that were somewhat not even that conscious to me. And that pain that I was seeking to escape, which I did, I drank more in the aftermath of the loss of my father. I gave myself permission to turn to that whiskey at night to take the edge off. All of that was related to how I believed life was supposed to be. And then I would do, I'd play a lot of mind games with myself to not feel pain, right? People have it much worse than me. You know, I should just be grateful for the time I had with him. All these things to kind of minimize what I was really feeling and to create a version of how, you know, life is, which don't... do serve you in some way, right? It served me to believe that, at least I got 50 years, he had 50 years and, you I had a father who was part of my life growing up, others didn't, right? And so you see people do that. And that is in some ways to diminish the pain and suffering because there is this cultural fear of it. Like how many times do we experience in our lives that when someone gets upset about something that people go and they rub their back, it's going to be okay. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (46:53.026) And even that's nurturing and kind, there's almost this, you know, unspoken kind of language that we're not comfortable with other people's pain. And we've even seen the mental health industry kind of rise through that. Are you talking to a therapist? You know, it's like sometimes like the first response people go through when they're struggling, which is such a deviation from historically how we've evolved. We've evolved in communities. We've evolved in close connected families and tribes, where, you know, we had the benefit of like stories passed down that actually normalized struggle and pain and saw it in the same way that you're communicating it. Like you're communicated in a way that it's transformational. And actually part of this unfolding life story that your soul really sought to experience in this physical body, which transformed the relationship you saw to the loss of your husband. And so what's happening when we're disconnected from those stories, when we're disconnected from traditional wisdom, our elders, and the close connection of a community, then we are so vulnerable to enter into this industry of sickness and symptoms, where it gets mischaracterized and mislabeled in a way that absolutely harms that process that The spiritual side of me says, well, this is the point, you know, as painful as that is, that is the point. Would we enter, would our souls want to be into this physical world without the ability to experience the dialectical extremes and the polarities that exist in this physical world? Because the truth of the matter is, is you can't really know love until you experience loss, because it is the opposite. We experience through opposites. Kim Witczak (48:22.28) you Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (48:49.814) And that's why sometimes you see these situations where someone has lived a blessed life and has not gone through hardship or adversity and they feel empty. You know, we have this idea in our mind that if you go through hard times, if you're a survivor of poverty or abuse or all these other things that somehow, you know, those things in itself are the predictors of mental illness. And that's actually not even true. It's just still part of our story. Because yes, that's painful. But when we pathologize those symptoms and say that in itself is mental illness, well, then they've made themselves correct. But they've also communicated, listen, like there's something wrong for you in feeling this, which I think is a reason why people end up being going through prolonged periods of suffering and post traumatic stress conditions, because there's a difference between suffering and pain. Like pain is necessary. Suffering in a lot of ways is optional. Suffering is the fight with the experience. And that's what we see in our system right now that has to change is that we are in a struggle and a fight with our own human nature. Our own nature that's designed for us is under attack and has been under attack. And it's up to us to kind of break through that story. Kim Witczak (49:55.471) Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (50:16.044) and get back to truths, truths that I think we all experience when we quiet our minds. You know, there's something in our gut. And I know I've talked to so many people have turned to these drugs and gone into the system, like it doesn't sit well with them. It doesn't feel right. But they deny that. My question for you is, did you ever have a follow up conversation with what he's prescribing doctor? Kim Witczak (50:42.472) I did during some of the legal process and he said to me he doesn't prescribe these drugs because he had no idea. And he goes, never in a million years knew any of this. It's why we ended up not suing the doctors during this time. was just, he said Woody was not suicidal. He would never have given him. He just trusted, I think he just trusted. And I think he saw himself, because I got a letter from him afterwards that he doesn't prescribe these or he's very careful. So I think for him, it was probably a learning lesson too, because Woody was one of his favorite patients. And so I think they had, and I think that's why, you know, what he trusted too, is he had a good relationship. And I do believe that there's a lot of doctors out there that want to do the right thing too. and they have found themselves kind of in this, and then they have to also do what you just said, which is kind of be, sit still, be curious, ask the questions, does it feel right? Because I think we're so busy and you like running and me being one of them before Woody died, like I was running so I didn't have to hear myself because I think ourselves, like our souls. do speak to us. And it could be through a feeling that something just doesn't feel right or intuitively, it doesn't make sense. But these kind of conversations that we're having are the ones that we need to get back to and not be afraid of. And also be afraid of like, it's the reality of, yeah, your dreams that you put out there. didn't work out the way you wanted them, right? The dream, the life that I had planned, was gonna, Woody and I married, we're gonna have kids, we're gonna be old together. I'm gonna see a woman tonight who I wanted to be like her and her family when I was old. And I'm like, well, I don't have kids and I'm not married. I'm like, my life didn't turn out the dream that I had, but I have an amazing life, it just looks different. Kim Witczak (53:02.616) And I think this idea of realizing that part of holding onto our dreams is also part of our own. Like a lot of this becomes our own, I liked how you said suffering is our choice, like in a way, the pain is real. Like pain happens, pain is the, it's usually the gateway into something, but the suffering oftentimes is because we have held onto it. Or the system has told us that you're broken and you know I go back to something again before That I look very differently I helped start an organization before what he died called free arts and it was called free arts for abused children We dropped the four abused children for the label, you know for labeling, but these were kids and We that were all removed from the home that had been through either their own personal abuse they saw things that they should never have seen traumas at home. And we worked with a group of kids that were eight to 12 years old. They lived in a dorm basically because they had been removed and we used the power of art and mentorship. So community and surrounded these kids. And I remember one night and the staff said, hey kids, you wanna show the volunteers where you live? And they're all like, woohoo, we're excited. And we walked in and every kid picked up of meds and I'm thinking, oh my God, they're all sick. And she goes, oh no, this is their behavior meds. And I was like, so they already started to put and plant the seed that something is wrong with them. Yes, you know what? They saw dad murder their mom. Yes, their dad is in jail. Yes, Momda is a drug addict. But does that mean that they're mentally ill? It no, it doesn't. means in some ways. after, so that happened before Woody died. So then after Woody died, I remember doing a fundraising dinner and I was, and I got to speak right after as the chair of the board. And I got to speak right after one of the girls who told her story. And I said, you are my hero. You re maybe we need to reframe this idea of trauma and childhood trauma. Kim Witczak (55:21.008) as that might be a gateway instead of labeling them and telling them they're never gonna amount to anything. Maybe this is the pain that we go through or these things that we don't necessarily, that are not fun or pleasant as kids. Like maybe it's the thing that is what we need to become greater and learn as a human and keep growing in that spiritual soul. anyways. I get very passionate about it because I look at those kids, I'm like, that is where resilience is born. Resilience is born through trauma. Resilience is when you get through the other side and you realize that you did it. Like there's some confidence, like even for myself who never thought I could do this, I look back and go, wait, I think I have given a lot of this power to Woody, meaning Woody did it. No, Woody didn't do it. Woody was gone. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (55:54.552) Yeah. Kim Witczak (56:16.994) I chose to do something with the pain of losing Woody. And that to me is confidence that came that I didn't ever know was possible. But it was through this experience. And that's why I always say to this day, through the most painful experience of my life, I think I found the meaning of life. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (56:46.77) beautifully said and the meaning of life is something that is unique to each person because the meaning we attach to our lives is part of what our soul's purpose is. I believe that. And just think about the evil behind telling an abused child or anyone who's gone through trauma that their reaction to that somehow needs to be managed with chemical compounds. Right? Kim Witczak (56:58.162) that. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (57:11.478) Like the underlying message still to that person is, is they are sick or what they're feeling is wrong or they can't handle it. And so when you talk about finding the meaning in life is that you are finding yourself through that process and you realize your capabilities because the mind is so self-limiting. The mind will always tell us what we're not or what we can't do, or that's someone else achieves that. And we're so vulnerable to those messaging. We see that in popular culture. and identity based politics. like, we'll be told that we're limited by our gender or our race or our sexuality. It's these constant messaging all the time to let us know how small we actually are, how sick we actually are and how we need to be dependent on the authority, whether that's the medical authority or the government authority, someone else always has to save us. And it's going through that difficult and hard time. Kim Witczak (58:04.37) man. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (58:08.0) is where you realize your real power, right? Or what you're capable of. And you also have such a deep respect for the time limited nature of this existence, that it is going to end for all of us. We don't know when that is going to be. But our freedom in that is who are we going to be during this time? And are we going to act in love and faith and courage? Kim Witczak (58:10.28) Mm-hmm. Kim Witczak (58:20.744) Mm-hmm. Kim Witczak (58:30.856) Hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (58:36.416) Or are we going to be controlled by fear or anger or division? And that's why I, you know, I look back at some of the trials and tribulations of my life, or I examine the time, the times I have with my clients who are also working through those challenges. You ultimately come to a conclusion that, you know, that time as horrible as it is, was so necessary for me. And there's even a gratitude for it. You know, and that's not saying you wanted that loss. And that's not saying if you could just go in a time machine and go save him, you wouldn't. But it's also taking a new perspective and saying, listen, I know I'm going to see Woody again. You know, I know I'm going to see my dad again, or the spirit and who he is. I honestly 100 % believe that more than anything else in my life and feel the presence of people who have lost in my life. I even feel the presence of your husband, even though You know, we only know each other on a certain level, but I like feel it in my body for the things that I'm supposed to say and do. Like we are a soul community. And when you feel for others pain and I'll never forget the I've I'll never forget in my life, the moments I sat with grieving mothers and grieving fathers. I'll never forget the times when I was 21 years old working in a children's psychiatric hospital and watching kids deteriorate nor what I want to. I don't want to ever lose that. because those sleepless nights led me to think I got to do something about this. And I really feel like we're at a time where, like, we can really do something about it now, because all the control mechanisms are starting to fall apart. The big media, the big government, the overwhelming amount of money that has influenced people to make immoral decisions and, and to protect the harm. Like there is spiritual battle between good and evil. And evil is that dark side, which many of us are capable, depending on, you know, how we approach this life of falling into, right? I can have felt it in this own transformation, like, there's, I feel so much anger towards the dismissive doctors that still exist on social media, who dismiss the dismiss these harms. I see them as evil, and I have dark thoughts about what I want to have happen to them. Yeah. And so Kim Witczak (01:01:03.194) Yeah. I have the same thing. do that. I just had this yesterday and I'm like, and I was trying to convince somebody because I heard, you know, it was just this division and this anger and this hate and all that. And I found myself wanting to like go right after. I go, I literally, and it was a friend and I had to step back and I went and I'm like, what Kim, are you like, what is your lesson in this? Maybe you have to bless and release like, Because I couldn't, I I was, found myself so angry. So I a hundred percent realize and understand what you're talking about. Cause it's a hard one when you've watched so many people be harmed over the years. And or not be awakened to the truth, right? Cause it is a spiritual. And I think it's hard when you're like, but maybe you have to go, we have to all like, maybe now is the opportunity. Leave them behind and let's go in this new direction of consciousness towards medicine. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:02:05.432) Yeah, I've started to see forgiveness in a whole new way, whole new light, right? And so when I work with trauma victims, and we use that word forgiveness, does that mean that you develop this compassion towards your assailant, the person that raped you? Because people can't get there, nor can I. And I'm not necessarily sure that's always what forgiveness means, that you have to develop compassion for them. If you can get there, you're a better person than than me. And then there's something special about you to be able to do this. But forgiveness sometimes means like, I am no longer going to let that person control me. I'm no longer going to let that event define me. And I'm going to shift my consciousness away from what that person did to me and end to my life now. And I have the freedom and power to create from that. And when you look at that, then you understand, then you understand the connection oneness of all things. That even through that dark is what inspired a creation out of love. And then you see faith and the teachings of Jesus from the perspective that I think it was meant. But I could never say to somebody who was a survivor of the most unspeakable traumas that somehow they have to go and love that person that did that to them. Kim Witczak (01:03:29.188) Mm-hmm. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:03:30.572) because that's just so hard for somebody to get to. And then they just enter into a process of judging themselves because they can't get there. Like another reason that they feel bad about who they are. And so the shifting in that and just being able to see, that person does not, they don't control you anymore. You don't have to dedicate any energy to them. Kim Witczak (01:03:49.464) Yeah, think that's so good. It's so good. I love that. Because that really comes to that idea of control, meaning it's a choice, right? You're releasing the control and you start realizing how much is actually in that. And I think that's what drove me crazy with like the during the COVID time is when people are trying to tell us what to do with ourselves. Like there's a sovereignty that exists. When you have control to say, no longer choose to allow you and what happened to me, control me. I have to change and write a different story and a different relationship to that. That experience still happened, right? But you're allowing it to move in a different way. But that's where our sovereignty has to be a part of the healing. and not through the industry and all the big players that want to keep us in the media, you know, all of that. But we have to come back here. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:04:57.326) Yeah. On the subject of light and dark, good and evil. There's a growing movement. Actually, that movement's been going on for quite a long time. It's the transhumanist movement. And the transhumanist movement is very diabolical in the way that it creates this illusion. And in that illusion, you need an upgrade, your divinity, who you are as a human, all your power. is not enough. It creates the promise that you can live without pain. It creates the promise that your consciousness can exist forever. And to do that, here is the deal you have to make. And it feels like a deal with the devil, is you need to combine yourself with emerging technology. You can combine yourself with AI and the burgeoning movement to change the DNA, our DNA as a human being, which in turn is to disconnect us from everything we talked about today. And so if we believe that we are made in the image and likeness of God, we are children of God, that in our DNA unlocks a code that connects us to our divinity and to our source. and we have this power that will forever supersede any technological advance. When we believe that, then we can really, really achieve our true nature, which I think is the purpose of all this. But this dangerous movement around transhumanism is also very intertwined with modern medicine. So when they say that they can upgrade you with a chemical compound made in a factory to not have to feel this as if there's no consequence, it's part of that transhumanist movement. When they say they can inject you with an mRNA technology, which will alter your genes, they'll just call it a vaccine because vaccine is associated with with advancement and protection from, from illness and it'll keep you alive because they know you're scared. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:07:12.45) That's part of the transhumanist movement. When they push you towards screens to disconnect from each other, when we isolate, when we move further away from connection and community, that's transhumanism. When they say that human nature, human beings are a flawed species, that you are harming the ecosystem, there needs to be less of you, less of us, and there's that, that. that movement that believes that the population has to be decreased dramatically in order to prevent destruction of our planet. That's all transhumanism and it can all be sold to us in a way that makes you believe you're doing something for the greater good and that's the deception. Kim Witczak (01:08:04.666) Yeah, absolutely. I've thought a lot about the because I think it's getting you well, first of all, just looking at the medical advancements and whatnot, you know, everybody wants technology. We've been sold. We've already believed that we want the latest and the greatest. So we as a society think we want more technology, right? Or like we want to inject ourselves so that we don't get cancer. Like I didn't realize that you're playing God. Like that's the thing. Like ultimately at the end of the day, the transhumanist movement, you can keep going and you can keep trying and you can ensure there are some good technologies. Sure, we can learn how to play with certain things, but you'll never be God. And I think that is the piece that is still there's no third, that piece of being connected to a source greater than us. And whether you call it God, call it source, call it the creative that you're trying to outsmart that. And that it will never happen because that this and so that's just my belief. It's I think it's where there's this ability that it already like we've got the ability that we were given like, I mean, if you think about it, we were given we can do infinitely more with being connected to source. than we could ever humanly ever think of, right? So all possibilities only exist in the unknown with that. We're over here trying to like manipulate it, thinking, I'm gonna get inside your head. You don't need a date. You got to like, we got an AI guy, you can live in the metaverse. Like what? Like what? Like that creates all kinds of things that we are like, we, I mean, if people actually step back and sure. They're like, can watch it's like playing a video game and I don't not living in the video. I'm living in the video game. I mean all this stuff. It's like we have to go back to where we came from. And I think we, you know, maybe this is what's been predicted this whole time until we we blow up humanity, meaning humans blow up humanity. And so I don't know. I just find it. It's Kim Witczak (01:10:26.32) I find it really interesting because there is that emergence of technology and advancements that have been sold to us and even people who aren't really thinking about it from a spiritual perspective or just thinking about it as a health perspective, right? Like, I don't want to get cancer because my mom and my grandma and my great grandma, they've all had cancer. So I want to change my DNA. you're already like playing like, wow, who says you're going to get cancer? Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:10:56.972) Yeah, and it's interesting how we continue to create these ideas and consciousness, you know, about how fragile we are, about how broken we are, about how sick we are. And I think one of the greatest advancements that we're going to come to in our own human evolution is the power of our own belief systems and the power of our own consciousness. think that's where we get to And so those who are already aware of that are going to do everything they can to stop that evolution, because that is where we find our power, our divinity. And there's so much about the sick care system that relies on that. was watching the Super Bowl on Sunday and you just see these commercials about this next disease, about how they're going to prevent this disease. And it's such a powerful industry that they have this ability to communicate directly to the American people in this way. And then there's millions and billions of people watching it. We're absorbing those messages all the time. Kim Witczak (01:11:56.24) Yeah, absolutely. I, again, being that that's my industry advertising, I know how to get in there and I know like it's getting into the minds of people that is what a successful marketing message is. And it can be used for good and bad and good and evil. And where I think that what I like to think what's happening now with all this change and this chaos is, cause sometimes you need chaos for it to like elevate you to a next thing. And so I believe that we're on this higher level and those that are aware are gonna keep making sure that we go, and that is the new direction and the new and what we're seeing in even, you know, what's happening in DC, like, yes, that's what's happening in the world, but like, there's something greater behind this that is actually having us as humans look into what has been going on. for so long that we've been manipulated, the advertising, what we've been told, the messaging that we're not enough, we can't do it, we only need to have another DNA, we need to have whatever you call them, MNRA injection thrown into my body. All this stuff, that is gonna be our responsibility to actually help push back and read message and help, I guess, expose right now. We gotta expose the system. because you got exposed to system. And I think that's why I'm super excited about what came yesterday in the message of that new, you know, with even with Robert Kennedy and looking at the exposure of the corruption and the monies and the systems and, and even sitting with the question that we're asking right now, that's probably uncomfortable for a lot of people having this conversation about transhumanism or consciousness. That isn't always an easy conversation for a lot of people. And so I love that when you can plant a seed, because maybe that's all we're supposed to do is plant seeds to let somebody else be curious enough to go and not be and ask questions like, I don't know, is that who's telling me this? Why do I believe this? Where's that coming from? And so maybe that's our, you know, a role of some of what we get to do to. Kim Witczak (01:14:24.496) and in having these kinds of conversations. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:14:28.046) Yeah, I'm really excited for what's next for you personally, because I think there's such a space and opportunity for your skills. Now your skills in marketing and understanding of storytelling, as well as the knowledge that you have through this investigation over years. Because let's face it, you and I have these conversations all the time with lots of people, but we're still in the minority about what we know. What are we saying? Like probably 90 % of the, of the American population at least. is certainly not exposed to the corruption and the, and the fraud and the dangers of pharmaceutical products. And, you know, I think if, if, if they've been selling sickness for as long as they've been selling sickness, then we need people who can sell resilience, faith, health and transformation. And I just see like, there's this path for you. in being able to sell that if you're, if you're willing to do that, because it's just, I think it's just within you. And you have this power to reach as many people as possible. I mean, to me, someone like you needs a larger platform. Because you're because you're somebody you know, we see this time and there's the maha movement, I love the maha movement, but we're still vulnerable to the influencer, the person who wants to gain attention and loves that attention. and just uses it for their own fame or their own purpose. And sometimes that can even take us down, you know, the wrong, the wrong path because, you know, just like the scientists who gets corrupted by the pharmaceutical industry, you know, there's the influencer who gets corrupted by money and power and these other options. And we move further away from what our mission is. When, when your mission has come through pain and gone through that personal experience, it's different, right? And, and the knowledge that you have over 20 years, 20 plus years in trying to figure all this out and prevent further harms. That voice is so necessary at this particular time in our in our history. Have you thought about like where you want to go or where your heart's taking you? Kim Witczak (01:16:42.92) Well, yes, I Well, thank you for saying all of that because remember I didn't choose to do what I've been doing right like and I and the reason I have kept showing up and showing up and showing up is because I know what can happen to when we blindly trust and it's why I keep doing it so nobody has to learn. And then I get another email, like I got two more today, right? But it's bigger than that. So I think there's the telling the stories, the stories of harm, nobody wants to talk about that. But I think it's the stories of resilience and telling a different story of health and what it means. You know, I think it's been, like I said, I've been doing this work for 20 years, I haven't gotten paid for it. It's because it's from a passion. came from something, but I know that there is a different platform and a different message. And that's really where want to kind of take it. And I also appreciate you asking about me and pushing me because I feel like it's my next level of growth for me personally is getting uncomfortable being vulnerable and having to share. my journey because I realize I've also hidden behind Woody's journey because it's been easier. And so that's just me being honest. So I appreciate you giving me this platform because these are the conversations I love having. Actually, if you ask any of my friends, we go out, this is where I want to go. They're like, my God, she's going to go deep. And I go, no, it's, it's not that it's going deep. It's just like creativity is this conversation. This is where creativity is born out of like this consciousness of like that we are connected to source and creativity. This is where like new ideas come from. This gets me more excited than beating up the old. And I think you need to still do that. And I think that's where my unique kind of experiences that I've lived it. I've had the pain. I've also been Kim Witczak (01:18:55.4) You know, I've been deeply entrenched in FDA issues, suing Pfizer. know what the drug companies look like inside the data, but I also think it's bigger because the power actually it's because that's still power outside. It's tapping, helping people tap into what's inside and their own power. So that's where I would love to, because that's the stuff that jazzes me, as well. And I think it tells, you know, like, Somebody just asked me today about their story and I go, I think there's an opportunity right now. One thing that has frustrated me for a long time is in the US, we don't talk about the harms of medicine, right? We don't talk about it. I learned most of my work, the selling sickness spiderweb is because I traveled to Europe. I traveled to other countries, again, on my own. And I was shocked that nobody from the US was there. And so I think this idea of, people think harms isn't a really big problem, it's a huge problem, but they've happened one-offs, right? And so now if we could start connecting the stories of harm that they're not alone and also help them reframe some of their pain and anger and that they start realizing, wait, I have the power inside me to do something. And if you want to go push, against your mental health or your whatever, you can do that. One voice is powerful. It starts the butterfly movement. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:20:29.078) I do think the American public is craving authenticity. And that's what I got from this discussion today. I loved listening to you, because it was authentic. And in that authenticity is this wisdom, you know, the wisdom that can only be received from somebody who has gone through it and come out the other side. And that's what I love my job as a, clinical psychologist. You know, I mentioned this podcast, it's called radically genuine because the hope is to get these types of conversations as much as possible. But the truth of the matter is it's really hard. It's really hard to find guests who are willing to do that. it's hard for me to do that sometimes on a screen and through an interview process. But today's podcast was. radically genuine. It was authentic. And, you know, I'm really hopeful that people share this episode because it's one of those conversations that I think are really meaningful to a lot of people. And I know that there's somebody right now who's listening, who is going through loss. And I know there's someone right now who is going through this uncertainty or they're struggling with a family member or themselves in the psychiatric system, the mental health system. And they've only been told a certain story about who they are. And we learn who we are through the reflections of others. You know, this is a mirror process. This is part of what we get through going through this human experience is we try to learn about each other and we know ourselves more deeply through that experience. And so there was something to be learned today by listening to you and in that that vulnerability and in that wisdom. And it is a story of hope and it is a story of love. It's a story of faith, but it's a story of resilience too. That listen, you are not as fragile as they want you to be. mean, as painful as it is, you determine what that fucking edge is. No one can tell you to take that edge off, right? You can live with that edge. You need that edge. Kim Witczak (01:22:40.424) Yeah. Yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:22:48.29) because that is where you are going to create. And it is up to us, right? Like when we have these conversations and we can feel, and that's where empathy comes in. It is being able to feel the emotions of another person, putting ourselves in that, in their shoes, because what they've gone through, we can understand what that may be like. Maybe we've gone through something similar, but we also know what happened to them can happen to us at any other. time. We don't want to shy away from that. We want to feel for each other and come together within that process. We're more courageous. We're stronger. We're resilient than what we've been told. We don't have to be divided against each other. We don't to be divided based on Republican or Democrat, black, white, male, female. Listen, it's all about that. It's all about division. And that's where the hope lies in this time. You know, what's happening in the government? with Bobby Kennedy represents an HHS. To me, it's about hope. It's a pro-human movement, right? We're on teen humanity. And we realize that there were so many people who are anti-human. And Anthony Fauci, members of power, of government, whoever they may be, right? It was always under. Kim Witczak (01:23:56.326) Yeah. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:24:12.748) this cloak of like safety, all those words safe and effective with these vaccines. They knew folks that the trials with the vaccines for COVID-19, they stopped them. They stopped the trials from continuing with a randomized control process because of the dangers and harms. Same thing we realized in 1991 with Prozac. They knew that that drug was creating suicide, violence, mania, akathisia, these stimulating effects, and they hid it from all of us. That's an anti-human movement, right? So if you're part of team humanity, this is a time where love prevails, and that only comes from empathy and compassion and the willingness to speak out and have these conversations. Kim, I want to, I just want to be able to hand it over to you for the last and final word. I can't tell you how grateful I am for your work, your story. I feel so inspired by you in particular. There's so many other great podcasts that you've been on as well. hope everyone listens to this, shares this, but also put her in that Google search into and find out some of these other podcasts because the story is told in many different ways. And each time that she's on a podcast, there's something new that I take away from it because she's so authentic. so Kim, just want to... Thank you so much again for your willingness to come on today. Kim Witczak (01:25:41.774) my gosh. Well, thank you so much. I again want to just say, I've learned a lot and I'm still learning about being willing to be vulnerable because when you are vulnerable and you're willing to tell your story, it allows others to tell their story or to see themselves and the hope that exists because I will, I will never forget. The night Woody died, only person I really wanted to talk to was somebody who was a friend of a friend of a friend whose husband died 10 years earlier. And I wanted her, I didn't even know her. All I wanted to hear is, please tell me I'm going to laugh again. Please tell me I'm going to love again. Please. That's all I wanted to hold onto hope of somebody who had been through something and made it on the other side. So if I can be that. for somebody's hope right now, awesome. And I couldn't agree more with the anti-human movement that we have had in the past by telling us. But that's where I think now we get to create another, and this is where my hope is now. I'm not putting the hope into somebody else because I think we all have to be part of the hope in the solutions. But there's never been a time that I have had more hope that that we can have start having the conversations that we should have had a long time ago in holding the government agencies that are supposedly caring about us as humans. So anyways, thank you so much for having me. I love I could keep talking about this stuff all day long. Roger K. McFillin, Psy.D, ABPP (01:27:28.984) Kim Witzak, I want to thank you for a radically genuine conversation. Kim Witczak (01:27:33.212) Thank you.