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Remco van Dijk - The benefits of an entrepreneurial channel mindset · Partnerships Unraveled

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to Partnerships Unraveled, the podcast where we dive deep into the mysteries and secrets of partnerships and the channel.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: My name is Michel, I'm head of marketing at Chanext, and I'll be your host for today.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm very happy to chat with Remko van Dijk, channel leader for Northern Europe at Veronas.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Remco, thank you so much for joining.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: How are you?
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Very well, thank you for um for inviting me for the podcast.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm um I'm doing great, thank you.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: Fantastic, absolutely.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start off easy.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Could you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and your work at Veronas?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm Remco based in the Netherlands.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh I accidentally came into IT during uh it was just a job on the side, and then uh they asked me to stay there.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: I had various roles, starting with the simple, you know, telemarketing, telesales, and doing all the hard stuff, then uh ended up in the sales role.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Then I got the opportunity to lead the marketing department, and I liked it very much because within the marketing, it was more I could be more strategic in my views.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I first led the the Netherlands and then quickly uh a region.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then in my next live, so this was all at BMC software, and then I came to um uh I went to Mercury, and Mercury was very quickly acquired by um by HP.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: So all of a sudden I was part of a very big organization with a um with a broad uh uh palette of of all solutions.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh whenever I did marketing, I always wanted to have partners involved as well.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very much involved in uh our strategy for the year, so I was working together with the channel partners always from this is our vision, this is what we're going to do this year.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I was actually already, from a marketing perspective, building a joint business plan.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and in marketing events, I also always wanted to have a partner involved because my philosophy is I can tell you that you know we are very good, but it's always better if someone else actually also says from hey, this is actually quite a good solution.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then it was actually a very natural move to then fully move into the channel organization, and it's a combination of both.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I like it very much.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's sales, it's business development, it's marketing, it's everything.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I like the role very much.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Then um I was asked to join Veronis, which was quite something different than coming from such a US organization and all of a sudden for such a small organization.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing was I didn't know Veronis.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Veronis was uh an unknown, but what I do like very much when I got the call from would you would you like to set up the channel organization for the northern region?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: was that Ferronis covers two things a the security part, but the most important thing, the data part.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: And both are very interesting solutions and and and and and subjects because they especially the data part it's connected to a lot of different parts of the customer organizations.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it has to do with regulations, sometimes it's to do with with with storage, so it's an interesting one.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: A small introduction on Veronis.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Veronis is a data security organization, you might have guessed.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and uh what we do is we look at uh uh security from a data perspective, uh, because we know that every hack and every attempt from the outside or from the inside is all go to one direction, and that's the data they want to get to the data.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so we look at the data um and um uh and we can see you know uh when data is performing, they're doing weird things, uh, but we can also see identities.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh for instance, if a if someone has stolen my credentials, so someone is Remco, and then all of a sudden this person attempting to be me all of a sudden has access to everything I have access to now, and that's what we call the blast radius.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um we can then also see the say the unusual behavior because if Remco comes into the office and go to Salesforce, that's all normal.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: But if Remco all of a sudden goes to Salesforce in the morning or in the middle of the night and all of a sudden extracts or encrypts everything that is there and on SharePoints and in the cloud and on-prem, that is unusual behavior, and we can stop it like this.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's data security, everything from a data perspective.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a short phone is and there's much more what we do, but this is uh I think the most important thing.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I think that's such an incredibly fascinating topic, and uh it's something that I I have a personal connection with, besides obviously the job that I do, is I I was a um recipient of credit card fraud at some point.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And when I was called by my credit card provider to actually discuss what had happened and why they had blocked my credit card, I just asked them.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I was very curious.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I said, How did you know this wasn't me?
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: Because I use my credit card for business travel.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of weird transactions on there, like from an outsider looking in perspective, because I go all over the place.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: How did you know this wasn't me?
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And they said, Well, based on our data, we don't think you have three kids and are booking a vacation with them.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I just thought that was such a fascinating reality of how this type of fraud detection works.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what you just mentioned is is so interesting about the blast radius that having access to someone's credentials leads to so many more larger problems than we can actually imagine ourselves.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's incredible and so important to keep that protected.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And interesting, by the way, that you mentioned the credit card, because that is most of the time, is that one of the metaphors we use for unusual behavior and that a bank can immediately see it.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And most importantly, you expect it from your bank.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you as a you as a client, you expect that that they will do this for you to protect you.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and we think that that's the that's the same with our solution.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: You should expect that your data is safe.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's it's interesting that that mindset, I mean, obviously, it's increasing because we're all becoming more aware of cybersecurity threats and the value of cybersecurity solutions, but the fact that we don't see the value of our credentials in the same way as the value of our credit card number is actually kind of strange because you can almost do a lot more damage with someone's accurate credentials than with someone's credit card.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then and now something else comes in the mix, just imagine, and that's AI.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody is using AI for more productivity, but an AI agent, it's it's uh Michelle uh toll on steroids.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: And they can and and this agent can do whatever they want.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: So that's also why we stepped into um uh into AI more with a with an acquisition.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now, by the way, the product is called the Atlas, where we look at these this agent almost as again as an identity.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, what access does this agent have?
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: What can the agent do?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: And what is normal and unnormal behavior?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, AI will not only for us is a productivity tool, but also for the hackers, it's also a productivity tool.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I it reminds me of uh I just finished up a podcast with uh someone from BitDefender, and he was talking about something uh a bit similar where he said like deepfakes, how complicated it is to fight against those because Elon Musk selling you stock options, that's a harmful deep fake.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: But Snoop Dogg dancing with some cats is still a deepfake, but it's not harmful.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you differentiate between the two?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: And again, like fight again against these threats built by AI is is just a massive endeavor.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I'm curious to see where the market goes.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: I see we've jumped off on a tangent, which I love, but I do have a question for you.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because when we were prepping for this call, you mentioned something really interesting about Veronas.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: It kind of surprised me, and that's that you said it almost felt like a scale-up.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: Could you talk a little bit about what makes you see Veronis that way?
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it was what the scale-up part was actually more, I think it it more it's more applicable for for this particular region I was responsible for.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: So Veronis is uh it's a 20-year-old company and established very well in the United States, and they first uh made the first jump to France and to the UK.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: So these are you know solid organizations.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um what we had in the little countries, sometimes they were you know uh managed uh from the UK, sometimes from France, etc.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: So um there were no sales teams as an example in Scandinavian Finland.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so and this is what I knew when I started here a year ago, and but that was also the great part.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um it felt like this is a startup and we have to do everything again.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but on the other end, uh we got a whole corporate organization behind us, so things are in place, of course.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Things and deal registrations and programs and stuff like that.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's all in place.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: But it was not a real strategy set out.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the strategy, also one of the reasons why I wanted to join uh Veronas was that when they called me, they said Ramco, this is 100% channel driven, 100%.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: And well, that was something uh different than the previous companies I worked for, where it was channel first, but then at the end you could see uh that uh still 50% or 60% of the deals were actually going direct at the very last minute.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it also had something to do with my own credibility.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that I came to a channel partner says we're gonna do this together with the with a with the channel, and then oh sorry, um, not uh and not because of me.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: And this is 100%.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: But again, as a scale up, so I looked at the data of one of the countries, and you know, there were 80 transactions done by uh uh 45 different partners.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: That is not a strategy, that is almost a direct deal, and at the end you ask your customer, hey, true, which partner we want to transact.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: So also that was a part that we could really build, build our vision, build a model where we go to more focused partners, do more business with them, and also be more important for them.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you are for these 45 different partners, some of them had two transactions, you're absolutely not relevant in the total uh book of the revenue.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: So that's something we are changing.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I I think that makes total sense.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I think there's a benefit to coming into an organization where you have the the corporate structure in place, so the the processes in place to then start building a new model in a place like Northern Europe.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I know firsthand that even though we might think that these regions are similar, uh that they're that they're really not, and they require different approaches from a cultural perspective, from a financial perspective, from a compliance perspective.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And this this actually leads into something else I find really interesting.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: And over and over, I talk to channel leaders who are rethinking their partner approach to be far more personalized, to match these cultural, financial, regional differences, and especially in 100% channel-driven organizations, I keep hearing that there's not really a one-size-fits fits all model for building great partnerships.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you determine what partner model a specific solution or partner even needs?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, that's a good question.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I think there are two answers.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: One is the cultural answer, and and one is the product answer.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we'll start with the last one.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's very much depending on the model you need, on what type of product you have.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, for instance, we are at the moment with a data security platform, we have a tier, one-tier model.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we do not have a distributor.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: We don't really need it because it's it's most of the time it's in it's an approach where we together with a partner go in, and if there's one-on-one relationship or one of three together with the partner, and we do the transaction.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: But now we also, another product I like to introduce is Ferronis Interceptor, which is a uh email security solution to avoid social engineering and also again see user behavior, what is normal and abnormal, also internally within the organization.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Every company and potential customer of ours have email security.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And almost every security distributor or every security MSSP or uh value-added reseller is doing something with uh email security.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: This could be easily be a one-to-many, meaning that we could um so that's what we're thinking of now to actually have a distributor to help us, you know.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: For this product, we could have a hundred resellers in one country.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: As a little bit exaggerated because the countries are not so big, but as an example, so the different strategy very much depending on on the product, that's the first thing.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and culture-wise, um, I give you an example of in Sweden.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: In Sweden, they really customers really go to their trusted advisors, these are your big security partners, and ask also if they've seen a new solution, they found it, you know, via Forrester or Garden, whatsoever, they go to this vendor and ask for their advice.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very important for us that these vendors also know us so they can give good advice.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: And if they give the answer never heard of Veronis, we have a problem.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: In the Netherlands, on the other hand, you see that uh security, and and not saying it for everyone, I don't want to offend any of the any of the partners, but you see more that the customers are taking these decisions on their own.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And and yes, they go to a security partner, but that's a little bit more towards a transaction.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a cultural difference, and you have to uh so I have to be uh I need to handle my my Swedish partners a little bit different in a different way than my Dutch partners or my Belgian partners and my Finnish partners.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: But it makes it only interesting.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's depending on again, and depending on the product, and then also depending on the country, which model fits best.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I fully agree, and I think coming into these types of situations with an open mind and leaving your assumptions at the door really, really helps.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: Ironically, I did my thesis on communicating across cultures, specifically with the Asia-Pacific region, because I found that there were so many different approaches and different thought processes you had to take into account when building business relationships there.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I was naive to think that, for example, Scandinavia or the Nordics, they work in the same way as Dutch people do, because on a kind of a very abstract level, people say, oh, Nordics in the Netherlands, you know, they have the same kind of thought process, you know, they work in the same way, they're a bit direct, etc.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I started doing business with the Nordics, I found exactly what you just said.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: The transactional element comes so much later in the process.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: The relationships building, building that trust is so much more prevalent in those organizations.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And from an outside perspective, looking in, I hadn't expected that.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that really changed my thought process on how I approach any new business relationship.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: I basically just sit back and listen, as opposed to project my assumptions on these different people in different cultures, and it's it's brought a lot of success.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, 100%, 100%.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: I was also in my previous uh job, I was also uh responsible for France, and they are as an example, they want to know everything inside out before they take it next step.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: So they're very looking into what does it re what can the product do, etc.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: etc.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: But if you know that, then you also the cavalry you bring in are your technical people to give them all the knowledge, and whereas in uh in a little bit south, in Belgium, it's what you said, the relationship and the trust they they give in you, it's much more important.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, there are a lot of differences and agree.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I think when you walk in any of the countries in Scandinavian, as an example, they make joke of each other and they think something, so the Danish think something of the Swedes and the Swedes think something of the Norwegian, so they even recognize there are cultural differences, and you need to do it differently.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't need to speak about people from Belgium and the Netherlands, they also have a thinking of each other, so it starts with the trust, and what you said, to I think the most important thing in our role is to first listen, adapt, and uh and find out okay, but this is the way they want to do business, okay, and then we do it in their pace and in their uh substantial order, and and and not try to force your own very direct Dutch way from yeah, you have to do this.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe not maybe not the best way.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: So uh yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: And that also aligns with with what you said earlier around the whole idea of if you have a partner model where you're basically doing stuff direct, and then you pull in a partner at the last minute just to add like a check mark to your list.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: That that's not a channel-first model, that's not a channel-driven model.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's about, I keep hearing this word in the industry, force multiplier.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's really about building these relationships with your partner so you can just do more with less.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's basically what about the network effect, right?
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, 100%, 100%.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also what I tell my sales teams.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: I so to an individual contributor in all the companies I work with, I said, think like a sales manager.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: You have all these partners, and all these sales of these partners, they're your ears and your eyes.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: So uh speak with them, uh, call them a lot.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you call them a lot or or meet with them a lot, they you keep top of mind in their conversations with their customers.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, no, and then it can be a multiplier, 100%.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And the other thing is, you know, the so in the beginning when I came, so a little bit back on how I started, so I start calling these partners we already had.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then, but some of them said, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, we've done one transaction.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it was not that I thought from okay, this is a partner, I do copy and paste, and now we're going to find another part, another customer we can do exactly the same with.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: You want to have partners where you build something, learn from from that whole approach, that whole uh the whole sales cycle, and then try to do it again on another customer.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's also better for the partner, of course.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: They can also build trust, saying, hey, we're dear customer, we have done this before in these and these accounts, so trust us.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's very uh very important.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's such a good point.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing I do see as a challenge, and I hear this often when I speak to leaders like yourself, is that with companies like Veronis, you obviously have different go-to-markets for, let's say, your data security platform compared to your email security platform.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you then make sure that you get the best of all worlds across these different go-to-markets?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's a trick question.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, um, I think the the most difficult thing is, of course, you want to do everything.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: You want also want to speak with the with the global system integrators, you want to speak with the MSSPs.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's making choices.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: At the moment, in Scandinavia, as an example, the most important thing is that we come to transactions.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we go for the uh low-hanging fruit.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: The low-hanging fruit means that the more again, as an example, in Denmark, where we just uh hired a new sales team in Sweden, it's important that we at least get a little bit of traction there and got our first customers there.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then when that has a form and gets some some meat on the bones, then you can work out more uh in in strategic ways of of uh you know uh dividing.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: I can imagine that in within two years in my team there will be someone responsible, for instance, for the MSPs or MCSP.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: But at the moment the team still has to do a little bit uh everything.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's just the way it is.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: But then yeah.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course, if the team grows and grows, then you can also have someone responsible for the distributors.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: The moment you have enough transactions, the moment you have enough volume, then you can make someone responsible for it.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: And at the moment it's a little bit we have to do everything on around.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: To be fair, I do think that's a very proactive approach when it comes to comparing these go-to-markets, right?
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Finding out where the value actually lies as opposed to building massive strategies and playbooks beforehand that you don't even know will work.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's great advice for any channel leader stepping into a role where they're looking at, for example, new markets or even new go-to-market motions.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sticking on that subject, we've talked a little bit about kind of changing your mindset, right, to fit a new environment that you land in.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: For someone stepping into a new channel leadership role today, what's the first assumption that they should challenge before trying to apply their old partner playbook to a new company?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good one.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: I will say a little bit what I've done, but uh I would the advice I would give is a first, uh, and we already discussed it a little bit or touched on it, is listen, go speak with the with the partners there's already a little bit of a relationship with.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: If you are the in the luxury position that there is uh already a uh a partner and a channel ecosystem.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: But speak with them and ask what they want and and what makes them happy.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: And um uh and the other thing is go brainstorm with them and also see whether they.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Business models you will currently have actually fit their needs.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you an example.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: We had a this is a previous company, we had a product which was really good, but it was only suitable for the enterprise.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: But a lot of these partners, smaller partners, this was in the testing industry, software testing, but a lot of them said, listen, we don't have the enterprise customers, but we have a lot of the smaller customers.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: So listening to them, then go back internally and then ask, you know, with your deal desk with everyone, or with the finance people, can't we come up with something that they can act?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what we came up with was like uh act as like an aggregator.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so they bought in a chunk, but they sold it to 20 different customers.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was not the MSSP, but it's but they were the like they act like the distributor.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: This was a model that was missing and and a model that was very suitable for Europe.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because in the Americas, in America, um you know the companies are are bigger.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: So also if they speak, you know, small and medium business, small and medium business in Finland is something completely different than small and medium business in in America.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: So also these these these volumes, we couldn't match the volumes that they were doing in America.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we we came up with this idea.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's always be open, never be the uh department of no.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: When a partner asks you something, be open-minded, also make sure that you can be 100% certain that in the beginning, internally, you will also get a no.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: But stay positive and just say, okay, no, but I want to have the butt, but in this way we can do it.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I think that's a very important um important lesson.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And also speak to your sales leaders, by the way.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And not only speak with them on the way for yeah, what do you want, but get an answer behind there the the question behind the questioning and the answer behind the answer.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they willing this?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean you have sometimes you have sales leaders and they say uh from yeah, I want this and this and this and this for my partner.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: And what are you giving back?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but what are you giving back?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I a lot of times make the comparison with the uh a normal relationship that people have.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I said once to one of these sales leaders that if you if this would be your reply to your wife, I think the and rightly so, she would leave you in a way, if you as you know, if it's only if it's only uh taken, taken, taken and not giving.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: So um I think that's an important one.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have to make the mix, and then be very transparent in what you will be trying to do in the coming, say, three months.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Be transparent to your internal organization, be patient with me, this is what we're trying to do and to trying to accomplish, and also to your channel organization, to the ecosystem and say, This is what we're trying to do.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And are you with me or are you, you know, are you in my boat?
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_00: So get everybody in the boat.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um and don't expect that you know the direction you set out, like with sailing, that that you think from okay, this is this is where I go.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: The wind can can blow all of a sudden in a different direction.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to you need to adjust.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: But build that's in, and also in your mindset.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: Don't be afraid that sometimes you know the direction goes a little bit like this.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's all good.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_00: But be transparent, internal and external.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think that all leads up to that, right?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: So if you build that real relationship, I love the analogy with a real relationship because we're people.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: So why would this not also apply?
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: But if you build that relationship, if you have that trust, that transparency, then when the wind does change, you know that you have the basis to actually say, hey, something's something's up.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk about this?
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: Can we realign into that new direction?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_01: How are we going to weather this storm?
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I love the fact that recently this has become more and more apparent that real long-term partnerships, whether that's with a distributor, an MSP, or a small to medium-sized business partner, is all about having this interaction, this human connection, and taking all the stuff outside of that, doing that with your AI and your tooling and whatever, but the relationship becomes more important now than ever.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the companies that will win the channel are the organizations that say, I take the people behind my partnership seriously.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: I care about what they think, I care about what they do, and I realize that this is a joint process with joint success.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, the same as a normal relationship, sometimes there's irritation, sometimes there's friction.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: And don't, and again, don't panic.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the moment that you know, yeah, the partner is not doing this or the partner is not.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, wait, wait, wait.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: Have you spoken with the partner?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Why exactly?
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: Give them a call, build a relationship.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I always try to, you know, get everyone at ease.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I explained to my son when he was younger, so what is your role, Daddy?
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Well, I'm a little bit like a moderator.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: I defend in a lot of times I defend my company towards the shell partner and vice versa.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, if there is no friction, that also means that nothing happens.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Then nothing happens, and so it must be that uh sometimes there is some irritation, and that only makes the relationship stronger.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: The moment what you also said, you know, if you come through a storm like this before, then you can relay them in the next storm that is coming, and that the new storm is coming.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's that's that's a certain.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I love this.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's a Dutch expression for all our Dutch listeners.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's uh zonder wrijving geen glans.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, I'll I'll I'll let all of you use Chat GPT to figure out what that means in English, but it really applies to this.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: This has been absolutely fantastic, Remko.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think you've shared some really great, actually useful and practical tips, not just about stepping into roles like this in in new regions, but also building out complex cybersecurity solutions um across northern Europe.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_01: One thing we do always end with on this podcast is we ask our guests to uh nominate the next guest on the podcast.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: So who do you think we should have next?
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and this is a nice story because you told me that you were going to ask me, and I was thinking so I'm going to nominate Noem Sorkine, and he's from Hadrian.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: And Hadrian is a is a Dutch company and is also a vendor.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was listening to a podcast about cybersecurity, and there was this guy on called Rogier Fisher, and he's a very smart guy and uh and a good entrepreneur, and he built this um they build this solution.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: But what I liked very much is that he's using exactly the same metaphor or anonymity as I was using.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: He said, you know, if a hacker wants to come in, they never walk in bang by the by the front door.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: They never do.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: They walk around the building and see, you know, whether it's a a closet window open on the on the backside.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: Hadrian can see this.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: But then when they've seen that actually the window is open, they can't see what's happening with the axis.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: So the moment someone is inside, they they they are blind.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where we come in.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and then we can show what um what they were actually doing with their axes.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I I immediately after that phone I gave them a call and say, hey, listen, this is quite interesting.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: These two stories are come together.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they agreed, and then we do what we call here the power of three, and that's what we try to do all the time, is to so we find a joint partner who is a retailer from both of our solutions, and they could tell the whole story, and that makes it very powerful.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: And it also opens up opportunities for Hadrian in our customer base, and vice versa.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_00: And for the partner, it's also a great story.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: In this case, it's in the Netherlands, it's IT2Grow.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, so that's my nominee.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I hope he uh he says the same uh nice things about me and my company that I did for them.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'll edit the podcast to make it sound really, really great.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I love I love this nomination, and I think what you ended on is such a fantastic point, right?
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is really about organic ecosystem building and thinking outside the box when it comes to delivering these solutions.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a fantastic point to end on.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and taking the time to speak with me.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you, dear listeners, thanks for tuning in and see you in next week's episode.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Gemco.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks you, Mikhail.