Latest / The Academic Coaching Podcast / Executive Function Isn't Just Starting — It's Finishing, Too | Sarah Ward

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Executive Function Isn't Just Starting — It's Finishing, Too | Sarah Ward · The Academic Coaching Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 2: Why am I not starting on this?
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: Oh, because I'm a procrastinator," he changed it to,"I'm a hesitator."
• 0:06
  Speaker: Oh, interesting.
• 0:09
  Speaker: Welcome to the Academic Coaching Podcast, brought to you by the Anti-Boring Learning Lab.
• 0:14
  Speaker: I'm your host, Gretchen Wegner, and this is the show where we dig into the craft of coaching students, the study skills, the executive function strategies, and the occasional business tip for those of you in private practice.
• 0:26
  Speaker: Today's guest first came onto my radar about a decade ago when I kept noticing a specific pattern.
• 0:34
  Speaker: Lab members who came through our Anti-Boring Training were also raving about what they'd learned from her.
• 0:40
  Speaker: And in fact, one of our lab members said that our two toolkits combined are the least anyone needs to know, she thought, to do executive function coaching for school-aged students.
• 0:51
  Speaker: So recently, we have a new wave of folks coming into the lab, and I've noticed that they don't know this person's work as well as I believe they should.
• 1:00
  Speaker: And so I'm thrilled to have as one of my first guests here on the Academic Coaching Podcast, Sarah Ward, who is a speech-language pathologist for young people and trainer of thousands of educators and coaches all over the country, and I think probably the world.
• 1:19
  Speaker: Am I right on that, Sarah?
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Uh, yeah, we do a bit of worldwide.
• 1:24
  Speaker: Yes.
• 1:24
  Speaker: I think so.
• 1:25
  Speaker: I would think so.
• 1:27
  Speaker: So here we have Sarah Ward.
• 1:28
  Speaker: I'm so glad we, we made it today.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Gretchen, thank you so much for having me today, and so fun to be here with you.
• 1:35
  Speaker: Good.
• 1:36
  Speaker: Well, one of the reasons, the sneaky reasons why I wanted the podcast is I, um, I, I love meeting other trainers and learning from them, and also just getting to know them.
• 1:46
  Speaker: And I'm like,"We could just have a little Zoom meet where we chit-chat about each other and our backgrounds, but why not actually do it on camera?"
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: It's so much fun.
• 1:58
  Speaker: So will you- Tell me first, I do wanna talk about your beginnings, like how you made your way into speech and language pathology.
• 2:08
  Speaker: But first, what kind of a student were you?
• 2:10
  Speaker: Do you- Oh have clear memories?
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: A total, 100% nerd.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: Um- Uh-huh I am an avid love, love, love to read and- Mm-hmm always have my nose in a book.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Um, and highly, I hate to admit it, highly academic.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, I feel like I was always studying.
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: Um, and, uh, a real techie in the sense of I always enjoyed computers and, and technology and, um, kinda the coding ends of things.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: And I really like research, but I loathe and hate writing.
• 2:51
  Speaker: Interesting.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: I coach it.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Um, I wish the writing tools that are available today would have been available when I was a student.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: I, I think that those were not.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: But the flip side is I actually think some of the tools that we had as students for research and writing, like outlining and note cards- Mm-hmm were incredibly powerful tools- So powerful and helpful visually and organizationally- Mm that are not used so much anymore, and I think that's- Hmm to the detriment and is too bad for some of our students.
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: So, um, yeah, I admit it.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: I was a full-on, you know, very studious.
• 3:34
  Speaker: Do you remember your first research paper that you did with note cards?
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 3:39
  Speaker: Yeah,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: tell me.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: I can s- I can still picture it to this day and, and making all the piles of note cards- Oh and really visualize.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: And I think that's what was so helpful, was you could very clearly see- All right, I have 25 facts and information about this topic, and I have three about that topic.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: So clearly I need to, here's where I need to put more research into that.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: Um, and it was a big deal.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: And, and I remember turning it into- Mm-hmm the Roman numeral outline.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Uh, Roman numeral A, little A, little big A.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: One, two, two I's.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: Uh-huh.
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: Students don't do that anymore, and it's- No,
• 4:21
  Speaker: they, they
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: don't it's really too bad.
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: They don't understand a organizational structure of that- Mm-hmm which I think is tough.
• 4:28
  Speaker: It makes me think that maybe the, the backlash to AI could be maybe some of us need to offer, like, vintage, vintage study skills courses for students.
• 4:40
  Speaker: Um-
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: It is so true.
• 4:42
  Speaker: Of course, we didn't know we were gonna talk about note cards, but I just wanna name that my very first research project was in sixth grade, and I chose to study my ancestors.
• 4:53
  Speaker: And-
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, fun
• 4:54
  Speaker: then my second one was I chose to study the Salem witch trials, and I still remember going to the public library and searching through microfiche for- Me too articles that would help me.
• 5:09
  Speaker: And then I remember my stack of note cards, and anyway, it was so inspiring.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: It, it's interesting that you brought that up because I remember being in grad school, and I w- I had, like, my grad school job to make a little extra money.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: But in addition to research and my grad school job, my job was to go to all of the libraries, the collegiate libraries here in Massachusetts, and go into the journal stacks and photocopy journals for my professor.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: And we read through journal articles, and you would copiously go into the stacks and try to find those, and, you know, photocopy and photocopy- Yeah and then read through them.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: And I think it's really tough because right now where students are really relying on all those journals online, and the AI is doing the summarizing.
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: There m- there's a piece of being able to see what the whole argument is and how does the- Mm argument fit into, um, a pattern of thought.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: And, and moving through documents and reading them in completion as opposed to just pulling random thoughts- Mm out of articles.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: So again, I, I, you know, it is what it is.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: That's what's happening right now.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 6:18
  Speaker 2: Um, but boy, I'm with you.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I sure remember microfiche and journal stacks.
• 6:23
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 6:23
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 6:23
  Speaker: Well, and I...
• 6:24
  Speaker: Just one more question.
• 6:25
  Speaker: I do still wanna know if you remember the actual topic of the research paper that you first wrote.
• 6:30
  Speaker: Do you, d- is, does the topic come to mind or just the felt sense of working with the cards?
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Just the note cards at the moment.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Darn, I can't think of that ver- That's okay verse topic.
• 6:40
  Speaker: That's okay.
• 6:41
  Speaker: So.
• 6:41
  Speaker: It's just, it's fun for me.
• 6:42
  Speaker: That's one thing I wanna do with the podcast too, is just talk to experts who are learning- Sure experts about their own learning, because I find it fascinating what we- Yep remember.
• 6:53
  Speaker: Um, so what was, what's the short version of your journey from being that nerdy student into being a, a, you know, a trainer and an SLP today?
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: So, um, I worked at Massachusetts General Hospital, um, a- and I went to the Institute of Health Professions, and I was working in the hospital and really specializing in brain injury rehab.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And of course, individuals who have had a brain injury often strike their frontal lobes and lose their executive function skills.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: So I was, had a lot of experience in, um, lost executive function and how do you sort of rebuild those skills.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: And many people know that, um, my husband was riding his bicycle and got hit by an 18-wheel Mack truck and sustained a very severe traumatic brain injury.
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: Um- Oh, dear was in a coma for a prolonged period of time.
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: And we got to rehab, and I'm like,"Oh my gosh," you know, like,"He's lost his executive function skills here.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: We need to rebuild these." And my daughter, um, who has significant ADHD and dyslexia, was also really struggling with the development of her executive function skills.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: So the combination of both loss of executive function and not developing really sort of took me down this path of then, well, then how do you actually develop these executive function skills, and what, what do you do about it?
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: Because i- i- interesting, just generically in the field, I would say, I mean, I've been doing this for 30-plus years, but y- you know, probably 25 years ago, we were really just defining what executive function was.
• 8:33
  Speaker: Right.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: And there weren't actually tons of practical strategies to develop the skills.
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: There were a lot of compensatory suggestions out there.
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: Have a memory notebook, you know, use these things.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: And then what I really found was with the onset of the smartphone, the smartphone really started to compensate for a lot of people who had- Mm lost their executive skills, kind of became their prosthetic memory.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: But we still weren't coming up with what were, like, true interventions to neurologically change the brain, and I think that those interventions are something that have really emerged in the past five, eight, 10 years.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: So it is actually, uh, a profession that I think is really in its infancy still, believe it or not.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, it may not seem like it, but I, I think it's not just executive function coaching, it's really about how do we actually teach that as a skill.
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: And, um, my co-director, Kristen Jacobson, who is just brilliant beyond brilliant, um, she and I have been working together for 30 years.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Uh, I think that's been a driving question for both of us, is how can we actually- teach and develop and change the brain.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: And so- Mm I think that's an exciting part.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: And, and to cap it, that is how I kind of got into the field, was personal experience and really feeling like, you know, I wanted somebody not to tell me what the executive function skills were.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: I really wanted them to tell me what can I do to make it better, and to change it.
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: Because, you know, my husband needed support and my daughter did, too.
• 10:11
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 10:11
  Speaker: I-
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: And all of my clients.
• 10:13
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 10:14
  Speaker: And I'm struck right now just hearing those stories that I didn't know, and this summer you're supporting your sweet dog in some recovery, and I'm just struck at how much- Mm caretaking your life has included.
• 10:27
  Speaker: So I'm just naming that I'm aware of that, and it's wow.
• 10:30
  Speaker: Sending you some love.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: Right there.
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 10:36
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 10:36
  Speaker: So okay, so you've landed here because you were like,"What do I do?
• 10:41
  Speaker: How do we actually change the brain?" And I'm assuming there weren't people out there with...
• 10:46
  Speaker: Well, you've said, there, they didn't have those solutions.
• 10:49
  Speaker: So you f- sort of figured, let me, let me try, let me work on it, let me see what I can come up with myself?
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: And, and I think that that constant collaboration with Kristen of-
• 11:01
  Speaker: Mm
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: you know, night after night and day after day of brainstorming and working with clients and, and we do a lot of work in the classroom.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: So, uh, we both do a lot of professional development for teachers on how do you support the development of these skills in everyday examples in the classroom, and we kind of call it the tiny tweak.
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: You know, you don't have to- Mm-hmm take on a whole new executive function- Mm-hmm curriculum, but what are the things that you can do within your existing teaching and/or coaching therapeutic practice to truly develop these skills.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Um, beyond, again, just kind of like the homework contract.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: You know, beyond the, um, uh, write it down.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: Because I think that if, to a certain extent, if all of those compensations worked, they would be working.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Um, a- and you know, it, we need something that's sort of gonna truly give you a- Mm-hmm different skill to bring to the table to actually get the homework down.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: To actually be effective in going from intention to action.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: To actually self-regulate and initiate.
• 12:12
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 12:14
  Speaker: So it sounds like, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you have three main buckets of people you serve.
• 12:19
  Speaker: There are the cl- the classroom teachers.
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 12:22
  Speaker: Then there are students in- Yes your own private practice working with students, and then there are other- We'll say coaches, but it's coaches- Yeah, professors tutors- Absolutely SLPs, OTs and therapists.
• 12:35
  Speaker: Yes.
• 12:35
  Speaker: OTs.
• 12:37
  Speaker: All the people.
• 12:37
  Speaker: I like to say all the people in the quirky corners of education.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: I do a lot of work, uh, coaching and providing strategies for those groups, too.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 12:47
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 12:48
  Speaker: So what would you say a tiny tweak is that you offer for classroom teachers?
• 12:53
  Speaker: I wanna make sure that before we move into coaching, is there just one small example that they can imagine,"Ooh, I want more like that," so that they can be inspired to join your courses?
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, sure.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: Uh, well, of course, my favorite tiny tweak, and I actually think it's, uh, a tiny tweak that comes from a larger philosophy.
• 13:13
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: You know, so many times we define executive function as the ability to just get stuff done.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: Which on the one hand is true, but the other hand is, is that in order to actually be able to get it done, one of the most important executive skills is being able to create the mental simulation of the action that you're going to take- Mm-hmm in order to get it done.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: So in a classroom where a teacher wants students to follow a transition and get it done, right?
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: In the sense of like, uh, the done goal is that they are at their desk and student-ready and with the materials they need prepared to learn.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: So many teachers will say,"These students just can't follow directions.
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: I have to repeat myself 100 times.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: You know, they're, uh, you know, and I'm constantly having to remind them,'Do you have this?
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: Get up and get this.'" Mm-hmm.
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: And a lot of students are inefficiently zigzagging through the classroom.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Uh, they get their pencil, they sit down.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: They have to be cued to get their worksheet, they sit down.
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: They have to get the book, they have to sit back down.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: So the tiny tweak is that when you have students not just repeat a direction, but the simple strategy of using their hand and gesture and pointing to where they see themselves moving in the classroom.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: So if I need my pencil and I need my math fraction manipulatives and my workbook, you don't want students to say,"Oh, I need my book and my workbook, my manipulatives." Because if I say it, I'm not actually simulating myself moving through the classroom to gather those materials.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: So the simplicity of having students lift up their hand, use their pointer finger, and literally point,"I'm going to the math zone to get my fraction manipulatives, and I look at it and I see myself going there." Mm-hmm.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: "And then I see myself going to the teacher's desk where my worksheet will be, and then back to my desk." That gesture really acts as a mental highlighter, allows for cognitive offloading and increases working memory, and suddenly students really envision themselves- Mm-hmm and they follow the transition accurately and with fewer prompts and in a more self-regulated way.
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: And so while it is like such a tiny tweak, I can tell you how many teachers email me and say,"Oh my gosh, what a simple thing, but a huge game changer," because students suddenly really are creating that imagery and they're doing an inhibitory pause to imagine where they're gonna go.
• 15:42
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 15:44
  Speaker: I wrote my master's in education thesis on embodiment and learning.
• 15:49
  Speaker: Nice.
• 15:49
  Speaker: So I always felt excited about move- I mean, I, I'm somebody who moves a lot anyway.
• 15:54
  Speaker: Um, I always felt excited about that.
• 15:57
  Speaker: But I do remember, actually, the first time I saw you teach was at one of Seth Thofo's, um- Sure back eight years ago maybe, and you were speaking about gestures, and I just went,"Oh, my goodness, yes."
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, truly, gesture is such a critical aspect of e- developing executive function skills, and the fact that it is embodied.
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: We do- Mm-hmm feel our bodies moving through space and time.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: And I know you and I have talked a lot about this, but it's that idea of if I'm that student and I need to get ready for soccer practice, I can't just think,"Okay, well, I need my shin guards and long socks." But if I'm actually pointing, okay, I see myself, I'm going upstairs, down the hall, into my bedroom, and I can imagine opening that drawer, and my shin guards are in the bottom drawer, and my long socks are on the top drawer.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: It's this amazing moment when you have a student do that and you say to them,"Do you actually see yourself in your bedroom?
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Do you see the dresser?" There's a moment where kids go,"I see it." I mean, they really, I, I do.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: Like, I- Yeah I imagine that.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Where when you do an initial intake with a lot of students, and you'll say to them,"All right.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: You're downstairs, and your mom says, you know,'Time for school.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Go upstairs and get your, uh, backpack in your bedroom and, you know, your sweatshirt from behind the door.'" And you ask a student,"Do you see yourself upstairs?
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Even though you're downstairs eating breakfast, do you see yourself in your bedroom?" How many t- kids look at you and go,"Pfft, no"?
• 17:36
  Speaker: Right, right.
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: They, they really don't.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: And so when you unlock that as a skill- Mm-hmm and they suddenly are like,"I see it"- Mm-hmm it's this pretty cool moment, and it is a tiny tweak.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: It's just a tiny little skill that has a huge impact.
• 17:51
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 17:52
  Speaker: Well, and the next question I was gonna ask you, but, uh, you've already, we've already talked about it, so I'll just name it.
• 17:56
  Speaker: 'Cause we talked about teachers and that getting students to gesture their, what, where they need to go in the classroom.
• 18:02
  Speaker: And then I was going to ask about something for coaches, and it feels like either teachers or coaches can ask that question, do you see yourself X, Y, Z?
• 18:12
  Speaker: And if the answer is no, then let's take a moment to break it down and see yourself doing whatever the thing is.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: And really starting to imagine that movement through space and time.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: Because when you do begin to imagine that- Mm-hmm it does trigger your awareness, too, of the passage of time, and feeling, um, how long things will take.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Uh, because you can suddenly sense, oh, there's gonna be more time involved with actually walking upstairs and down the hall- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm and then coming back down.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: So it-
• 18:43
  Speaker: It makes me think- it proves growth I need to come up with another word.
• 18:46
  Speaker: I, one word I've made up that I train people in the a- anti-boring toolkit in is verberizing.
• 18:51
  Speaker: Yes.
• 18:51
  Speaker: So the word study is a verb, but it's not a great verb because you can't see what it, what you're doing.
• 18:58
  Speaker: And so verberizing might be make five flashcards, as an example.
• 19:02
  Speaker: That's turning it into a verb that you can see.
• 19:04
  Speaker: But I feel like we need- Gesturizing or something about the seeing too Yeah'cause it's like, so now let's take a moment to imagine, like, where are you when you're making those flashcards, or where are you when you're testing your...
• 19:16
  Speaker: Where are you keeping them?
• 19:18
  Speaker: Yep.
• 19:18
  Speaker: Do you see them in the pocket in your, in your- Right backpack if they're paper?
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: We, um, our phrase for it is we call it mind miming.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Um- Mm-hmm.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: And- That's right the reason is, is that the word mime actually is an acronym for, um, the processing skill, which is called mimetic ideational- Mm-hmm information processing.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: And so you basically mime the idea in your head.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: Uh-huh.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Uh, and I like the idea of mime because when you talk about what a mime does, a mime acts out or simulates an action even though they might not have the object or even though they might not be in the space.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: They're acting and simulating, and that's really the big thing we teach a lot is how do you simulate the action you're going to be doing?
• 20:06
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 20:07
  Speaker: That also corresponds with I've realized I wanna be teaching educators more improv skills.
• 20:14
  Speaker: And one of the reasons- Oh, yeah is I've started doing some research around how Improv games.
• 20:20
  Speaker: Like one research, um, study in particular said that just 20 minutes of teenagers playing a yes and game, practicing just saying, you know, yes and building on something somebody else has already said, uh, really increased their ability to think flexibly as well as to be more comfortable with the unknown.
• 20:44
  Speaker: And, uh, so I'm just hearing they're, like miming too, like they're playing is when we're- Yes in our bodies, we are- Yeah it's one way that our mammal beings actually learn.
• 20:59
  Speaker: And so, and so many educators struggle to do those things for themselves, and if we can't do them for ourselves, like if we can't play, if we ourselves- Right are shy about using our bodies to gesture as an example, then our students are gonna be shy about it.
• 21:15
  Speaker: So we need to build those capacities inside ourselves so that we can support our kiddos in doing them too.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: I would...
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: You'll have to put that research study in the show notes, because I love studies like that.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: And- Mm-hmm it reminds me of, I think something too that I'm seeing that is so important is that, um, and it's twofold.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: One, students aren't practicing working memory as much as you and I did as kids in terms of, you know, we memorized phone numbers, we memorized the directions to our house when sharing with a friend.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Uh, we played the game Simon.
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: Uh, we played I'm Thinking of an Animal in the car.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: So you had to remember, is it a forest animal?
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Does it have a pattern?
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: Is it big?
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Is it small?
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: And that idea that you just said of sort of that being able to add something like yes and.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: Also, it's that when you're do- using your working memory, you have to practice being able to do two things at the same time.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: So being able to hold onto one idea while expanding on it at the same time.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: That ability is imperative for note-taking in the classroom.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: Aha.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: So- I see how do you- Yeah, yeah in a classroom, uh, listen and take notes and write at the same time?
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: And this is something that I see is happening for a lot of our high school students, is that they really can't.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: They either need to listen or they take notes- Mm-hmm but they can't listen and note-take at the exact same time.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: And when I go out, and I'm doing a lot of professional development to schools these days- Ironically, one of the requests is to support younger stu- younger teachers.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Because a lot of younger teachers are actually struggling with their own executive function skills, and it's showing up as the ability to divide their attention and do two things at the same time.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: Kind of have, like, eyes in the back of their head.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: So I can be working at this table with a small group, but I know what- Yes you know, those three students behind me are doing.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: I don't even have to turn my head around.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: I can be like,"Hey, you." You know, like- Yeah"You know, you need to be doing this." But we're finding that that is a more demanding skill, and- Interesting it's, it's really that we need to be continuing to give students opportunities to practice working memory and dividing their attention doing two things at the same time.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: And yes, improv games like that- Mm-hmm are important for that skill as well.
• 23:43
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 23:44
  Speaker: It occurs to me, and you can totally say no to what I'm about to offer, but could I teach you a quick little game which you may have known before anyway, and could we just play it back and forth?
• 23:52
  Speaker: It'll probably take a minute.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 23:55
  Speaker: Can you?
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: Can we do
• 23:57
  Speaker: that?
• 23:57
  Speaker: Of course.
• 23:57
  Speaker: 'Cause I think it directly...
• 24:00
  Speaker: Anyway, you'll, well, you'll see.
• 24:01
  Speaker: So, um, it's called What Are You Doing?
• 24:04
  Speaker: Do you know that?
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: N- I'm, I'm not sure if I do.
• 24:06
  Speaker: Okay, so let's see.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: So
• 24:07
  Speaker: let's go.
• 24:07
  Speaker: It's a classic game.
• 24:09
  Speaker: So you'll ask me,"Gretchen, what are you doing?"
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Gretchen, what are you doing?
• 24:14
  Speaker: And...
• 24:15
  Speaker: Oh, wait, hold on.
• 24:16
  Speaker: See, I have to remember how to ord- actually, let me s- I start.
• 24:19
  Speaker: I'm going to pantomime.
• 24:20
  Speaker: That's why I thought of it.
• 24:20
  Speaker: I'm gonna pantomime an action, and then you're gonna ask me,"What are you doing?" Okay, so.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, great.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: Gretchen, what are you doing?
• 24:26
  Speaker: I am bouncing a basketball.
• 24:29
  Speaker: Now, obviously I'm not bouncing a basketball.
• 24:30
  Speaker: You know what I looked like I was doing.
• 24:32
  Speaker: Sure.
• 24:32
  Speaker: But that's okay.
• 24:33
  Speaker: You'll see.
• 24:34
  Speaker: So I just said, my words said,"Bouncing a basketball." So then you start miming what my words say.
• 24:39
  Speaker: Okay, so bouncing a basketball.
• 24:42
  Speaker: So now- Uh-huh keep bouncing the basketball.
• 24:44
  Speaker: I'm gonna ask you,"What are you doing?" And you say something different than bouncing a basketball, but you can't stop bouncing the basketball.
• 24:50
  Speaker: You have to keep on bouncing it.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Okay, got
• 24:53
  Speaker: it.
• 24:53
  Speaker: So, Sarah, what are you doing?
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: Frosting a birthday cake.
• 24:59
  Speaker: So then I'll start doing that and you ask me,
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: and we'll do that a couple more Okay, Gretchen, what are you doing?
• 25:04
  Speaker: I am...
• 25:06
  Speaker: The first thing that came to me, you can just pretend.
• 25:08
  Speaker: I am twirling around in circles.
• 25:10
  Speaker: Oh, wait, I just messed it up'cause I stopped.
• 25:12
  Speaker: Hold on.
• 25:13
  Speaker: I'm twirling around in circles.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 25:17
  Speaker: Sarah, what are you doing?
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Um, I am brushing my dog Gretchen, what are you doing?
• 25:31
  Speaker: I am making my coffee
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: Ah, okay.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Um- Yeah.
• 25:38
  Speaker: Okay, and we can stop there.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: There you go.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: It is amazing, it, how hard it is.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: It's like, you know, pat the head, rub the belly- Yeah to, to do both.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: But I love that because you do have to hold onto and retain the one action in working memory while you're generating a second action- Right in your, in your frontal lobe.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: So I think that's a wonderful game.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: I love it.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: It's fantastic.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: That's why, may- And-
• 26:04
  Speaker: Yeah, go ahead
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: they're critical to teach.
• 26:06
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 26:07
  Speaker: Well, I think we may be onto something with this vintage, vintage skills workshop.
• 26:13
  Speaker: Yes.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: I think so, too.
• 26:16
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 26:16
  Speaker: So interesting.
• 26:17
  Speaker: I mean, I, definitely our critiques are things we do way better in education now than we used to, but those are some just real hands-on manipulative ways of being that we haven't done so much today.
• 26:30
  Speaker: So anyway, duly noted.
• 26:31
  Speaker: I'm going to change our topic because I really want to discuss something that we started discussing before we recorded, and I stopped you'cause I said,"Wait, let's finish this recording." Mm-hmm.
• 26:44
  Speaker: I've been obsessed with the question, is task completion an executive functions, either just an executive function or an executive function skill?
• 26:52
  Speaker: Task initiation certainly makes it on all the lists.
• 26:55
  Speaker: So, but I really in my own life struggle with the completion moment.
• 27:00
  Speaker: And so I had asked you that question and you had some thoughts about it,'cause you too are struggling to do final completions on some projects that are in your world.
• 27:09
  Speaker: So will you just talk a little bit b- about task completion?
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: So, uh, here's my number of thoughts on that.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: Um, I, and what I was sharing with you before we started recording was that I have a lot of tasks that I feel that are about 80, 90% towards the finish line- Yeah and they're not getting pushed to the finish line because something else has come in and, uh, has a greater fire that I need to put out, and then I put that fire out, and that gets to about 90%, and then something else comes in, et cetera.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: But I see this happens a lot for our students too, which is that they've done the work, but they don't click Submit.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Um, or they're about finished, and then they don't- Mm-hmm you know, for example, completely finish.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: So yes, I do think it's an executive function skill, and I think it's related to a number of significant features.
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: One is, is that we really need to be able to visualize what does done look like, and know, uh, broadly what is done and what I might call optimal, and then maybe what you can do above and beyond if you're going to add, say, for example, like the fancy factor to something.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: So if I know that-
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: The fancy
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: factor.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: So if I'm gonna be making a poster What does done mean to have met the, say, the grading rubric and the expectations of the poster, and then what might be above and beyond that if I have extra time to, again, you know, add some of the fancy factor to the poster once I've met all of the grading criteria?
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: So, I think sometimes for students what happens is, is that they start in and they do the task.
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: They don't start by that visualization of what does done look like, and that's a big thing that we really teach, is we teach students how to visualize and future sketch and imagine what done looks like.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: So, I think that's one piece of it.
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: I think the other thing is, is that it is heavily related to working memory and time management.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: So, oftentimes I do see that students have this sense of,"Oh yeah, I was working on that," and then they step away from it, and they get distracted, and in their mind, it's like,"I did that?
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: So I was-- Like, I worked on it.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: I was done." But they didn't really get all the way done.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: And so I think that sometimes it becomes an issue where there's not a memory sense of it, and there's also not a time management of a true deadline of, okay, what does done look like?
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: So, and, and again, a lot of times I think this is problematic, and it's a sign of our a- you know, era- You and I often had to bring in the assignment and turn it into the wire bin in class.
• 30:07
  Speaker: Right.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: And-
• 30:07
  Speaker: Again, gesture.
• 30:08
  Speaker: That- Right a gesture is different than a click.
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 30:12
  Speaker 2: And there's, and situational awareness.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: You can see all your classmates walking across the room and putting- Mm-hmm the homework in the wire bin.
• 30:17
  Speaker: Mm-hmm,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: mm-hmm.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: But now, if I'm just clicking submit at any given hour, there's not that...
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe there's a deadline of, like, it's due at 11:00.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: But I just think that there's something situationally from a time- Mm management perspective that students may not feel that passage- Mm-hmm of time, and so in their mind, they're done because they worked on it.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: So I think that that is problematic.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: I also think that finishing, um, I have a lot of students that would describe themselves as perfectionists.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: Um, and there's, you know, there's always more to do.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: There's always something that will make it, quote-unquote, perfect.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: And so sometimes they're not even starting, and they don't get to done because in their mind, it's going to be this, but the time or the materials or whatever it is isn't going to allow you to, to do all of those things.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: So I actually have a little bit of a favorite strategy around that.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Um, I really teach a lot of students that there are two things.
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: One, change it and don't describe yourself as a perfectionist, but describe yourself as an optimalist.
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: Mm.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: Because if you say,"Okay, I'm an optimalist, and I wanna get this to the most optimal state that it can be," optimal actually has a finish line.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: It, if it's optimal, here's all the factors that make it optimal.
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: Perfect, it's not the same.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, you can't really define what that is, but optimal, you can, has, like, a boundary and a definition to it.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: And I think that's helpful for many, many students.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think the other thing is, is that a lot of times students will say that they don't get to done because they're a procrastinator.
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: So they're saying,"Oh, I'm not, I'm not finishing because I'm just procrastinating starting in the first place." Mm.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: And I have a student that I work with who I just think just the world of, just a really amazing kid, and together we sort of changed that- Instead of saying,"Why am I not starting on this?
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Oh, because I'm a procrastinator," he changed it to,"I'm a hesitator."
• 32:37
  Speaker: Oh, interesting.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: And that's very, very different.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Different, yeah.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: Because if you suddenly say,"What is making me hesitate-" Mm-hmm"getting started?
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm hesitating because I don't really think I have all the materials I need," or,"I'm hesitating-" Mm-hmm"because that one part of it feels overwhelming," or,"I'm hesitating because-" Mm-hmm"I don't really know if I, um-"
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: uh, have the right information on that," then all of a sudden you're sort of coming up with a solution to what is it that I'm hesitating about.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: So that was a very long-winded answer to, yes, I do think, just as we say organization, initiation, uh, cognitive flexibility are executive skills, I do think that, uh, sustained attention and the finishing-
• 33:29
  Speaker: Mm-hmm
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: is an executive skill.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: Well- Knowing what done looks like
• 33:33
  Speaker: as I'm working on what I think my sort of EF of study skills, uh, framework is, uh, I, I don't have exactly the right terms yet.
• 33:43
  Speaker: I don't like the term management, like task management.
• 33:46
  Speaker: I don't like that term, so I'm looking for something different.
• 33:48
  Speaker: But underneath it, I, I've just started writing we start, we stay, and we stop.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:54
  Speaker: And it, it just feels like those three are all different, but they're all necessary.
• 34:00
  Speaker: And a theme that I heard you saying in your I didn't think too long-winded answer, was there's something about our self-perception,"I'm a procrastinator," versus,"I'm a hesitator," and giving- Mm-hmm ourselves a noun.
• 34:15
  Speaker: And I so deeply resonate, because what I noticed recently, I, uh, recently meaning about four months ago, I got so frustrated with myself about not finishing things.
• 34:26
  Speaker: And actually, that even impacted us in that we were supposed to record another day, and my finish task that I didn't do was put your confirmation on my calendar or send it to my team to do that.
• 34:37
  Speaker: And that was like a finishing thing that just didn't happen on my end.
• 34:42
  Speaker: But about four months ago, I made up a song that I- I started to love it started singing to myself all the time, and that song went something like,"I'm a woman who finishes things.
• 34:52
  Speaker: I finish things.
• 34:53
  Speaker: I finish'em up." Yeah.
• 34:55
  Speaker: And for about a month I sang the song, but I didn't actually finish things.
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: Hmm.
• 35:02
  Speaker: But I noticed I'm not finishing something right now, and I would sing the song to myself.
• 35:08
  Speaker: And so it was, it was like an awareness builder.
• 35:11
  Speaker: And then about a month aft- like, after the first month, I was like,"Oh, I'm starting to, I'm starting to stop myself and go back and finish the thing." And then I would sing the song while I was finishing things.
• 35:24
  Speaker: I've stopped singing the song.
• 35:25
  Speaker: Maybe I need to bring it back in again.
• 35:27
  Speaker: But there is something about The naming of who I am.
• 35:32
  Speaker: I am a woman who finishes things- Mm-hmm number one.
• 35:36
  Speaker: And then number two, making it silly.
• 35:40
  Speaker: Or si- the singing of it didn't, didn't feel like critique.
• 35:44
  Speaker: Like,"Oh- Yeah you don't finish things." Instead, it just felt like I'm playing with this idea of what does it mean to finish something.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: And we, uh, you know, of course, it's so funny'cause every time I present or lecture I think,"Ugh, I need to save myself time.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: I won't present on this," and I always do, which is that we have our, uh, we, we call it job talk, and y- I know you and I've chatted about that before, um, where whatever task a student is doing, we always recommend they turn it into a job and give themselves a job title.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Because when you have a job title, it has a finality to it.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: So if I say, um,"I'm doing homework," that doesn't have a finality.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: If I'm doing math, that doesn't have a finality to it.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: If I'm just reading, that doesn't have a finality to it.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: But if you turn it into a job,"I'm a summarizer," well, now that has a finality because at the end of the time I've spent, I've summarized what I've read.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: "I'm a measurer," I've then clearly measured the items.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: "I'm a data grapher," then I've graphed the data.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: "I'm a grant writer," then I've written the grant.
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: Um,"I'm a PowerPoint creator," or- Mm.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm you know, PowerPoint diva, I guess I would say that about myself.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: I love that.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: But, um, y- it, it sort of gives you that identity and even, uh, of course, I love the book Atomic Habits by James Clear- Mm-hmm or the work of Daniel Pink.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Uh, both of those individuals really talk about the importance of identity.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: You know, thinking about yourself- Mm-hmm I'm a finisher, I'm an athlete, I'm a grant writer.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: And so our favorite trick is we actually encourage students to put that in their agenda book.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: So instead of writing down the word study, I'm a flashcard maker, I'm a notes organizer- Mm-hmm I'm a mnemonic creator.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: Um, there's something about it that gives you a clear done.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Like,'cause then when I'm done, I've created the mnemonic.
• 37:44
  Speaker: Right.
• 37:44
  Speaker: 'Cause the verb is I'm doing it, but the noun is it happened, I'm done.
• 37:50
  Speaker: I am a person who did that.
• 37:51
  Speaker: That's so interesting.
• 37:52
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I
• 37:53
  Speaker: love that.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I'm, it's that identity.
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: And we do, uh, you know, certainly we talk a lot about verbs and the importance of- Yeah creating the action that you're going to do- Right to get it done.
• 38:03
  Speaker: Right.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Um-
• 38:04
  Speaker: But it's an action and a noun.
• 38:05
  Speaker: We need the noun to help us know what done- Yeah looks like.
• 38:08
  Speaker: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 38:10
  Speaker: You know, I forgot to say earlier, Sarah, and so I feel like I should say now that, uh, some of Sarah's tools on time awareness are actually part of our advanced micro-credentials inside the Anti-Boring Learning Lab.
• 38:20
  Speaker: Yes.
• 38:20
  Speaker: So you get a little taste of Sarah's work if you come on in to our space.
• 38:26
  Speaker: But that said, what kind...
• 38:29
  Speaker: Like, how do you teach?
• 38:30
  Speaker: Do you teach in, like, one workshop that's several hours long, or is it, like, several weeks of learning?
• 38:36
  Speaker: Or how...
• 38:37
  Speaker: If people are curious about learning from you, what would it look like?
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Um, so certainly we have webinars on our website.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: Uh, and a lot of our presentations, um, span everything from one hour to full day to, m- you know, week intensives.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: Um, and there's a lot of, um, probably online virtual learning opportunities- Mm-hmm uh, that they can check out on our website.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: Um, and everything from lectures for parents- Mm-hmm how do you support executive function skills at home and increasing independence.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: And lots for educators on working to shift students from being adult-regulated to self-regulated.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: The goal is for adults to really be able to, uh, give students the strategies and the tools so that they can walk away and the student knows when and how and which strategy to implement on their own.
• 39:35
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Uh, that's really the goal.
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: We, we don't wanna sort of be prosthetic frontal lobes.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: We want to support independence.
• 39:40
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 39:41
  Speaker: And it sounds like some of the webinars on your website are asynchronous at this point.
• 39:46
  Speaker: They're-
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Yes
• 39:47
  Speaker: recorded and people can simply purchase them.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 39:50
  Speaker: And if you were to recommend either one of those or a live one to me specifically, There you go knowing my study skills toolkit that I teach, but thinking what would complement that nicely, what would you tell me to go learn?
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: Um, I would say one of our foundation courses, which are kind of a, a half-day to full-day- Mm-hmm course.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Um, those, some of those are coming up in December.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Ooh, okay.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, which is always kind of a good one to watch out for.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Um, and for our younger learners, we have something called From Play to Planning, because- Mm-hmm play is the catalyst to the development of executive function skills.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Um, and if you are supporting parents at home, um, I've got one out in September, I believe, that is all about, um, teaching students to student, uh, and developing those- Mm-hmm executive function skills for back to school.
• 40:42
  Speaker: Great.
• 40:43
  Speaker: Great.
• 40:43
  Speaker: And that's for parents specifically.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 40:45
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 40:46
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 40:47
  Speaker: Great.
• 40:48
  Speaker: Well, maybe December we'll have a, an Anti-Boring Learning Lab crew come on in- I'd love that to that one.
• 40:56
  Speaker: Um, briefly before we end, we need to move into wrap up, but the thing that inspired me to invite you here, which we haven't talked about yet, so I just wanna name it briefly, is when you and I talked last, you said that you're noticing a theme of at least a couple times a week- Do you know what I'm referring to?
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Yes, the college students.
• 41:15
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 41:15
  Speaker: Will you say that?
• 41:16
  Speaker: Say what you've no- what you're noticing.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: So we're getting lots and lots of referrals for students who were freshmen in college and really struggled- Mm-hmm uh, with the academic executive demands of being in college.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Um, and student- a lot of referrals for high school students that are getting prepared to take off to college, and there's a lot of concern that they do have the underlying academic executive independent life skills to be able to be independent and productive.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Um, and it's a real concern, and truly, the students that are entering as freshmen this year or last year are different than the students we've seen in years prior.
• 42:03
  Speaker: Yeah
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: And- Yeah I think there's a number of reasons.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: I think that there are academic reasons, which are that students really are not reading as much as they used to, and they're not- Me
• 42:15
  Speaker: neither.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Me neither.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: And doing thorough research as well as, um, reading for pleasure, but also just being able to really, uh, get through documents and through large volumes of text, and to retain that information.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: Um, we're certainly seeing that writing is a challenge.
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: I think that AI is playing a role in that, and the ability to actually, um, draft and write essays and be organized and, and sentence structures.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: And you really, your writing skills improve from reading.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: So it's a little bit, uh, cyclic and, and relational there.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: Um, and I think, too, that there is this huge time management factor, which is that when you are in high school, things are, are really due, mm, every couple days, every three to four days maybe, and then all of a sudden you get to college, and you get a syllabi, and you have loads of readings- Mm and things that you need to be taking care of, but nobody's really checking in on that, and maybe all of that doesn't accumulate until four or five weeks into the future.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: So all of a sudden, at that four- or five-week mark, students suddenly go,"Oh my gosh.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: I have all of these readings for all of these classes, and all of these videos and lab write-ups and all the things," and they're overwhelmed, and they really can't get it done.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: And so there is a skill that we need to be teaching about pacing the work and being able to initiate even though there isn't an urgent deadline.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: And that also comes to the other factor, which is that when you're in high school, you are going to school from 8:00 to 3:00 and your day is really structured, and then you get to college and no more structure.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: Maybe you have classes at 11:00 Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and at 1:00 on Tuesday and Thursdays, and there's those large open pockets of time.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: So there's, um, high digital load, uh, low analog practice.
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: There's over-reliance on technology.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: Um, there's a lot of distractions.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: And we need students to be able to learn systems, have methods of being able to manage time, um, have the tools to handle the reading and note-taking skills that they need in the classroom, and in your wheelhouse, the study skills.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: Um, because again, uh, the midterm finals, I think that in the post-pandemic era, um, you know, there were a lot of disrupted routines, and I also think that- There were lower stakes.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: You know, we just didn't expect quite as much.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: We didn't expect them to be able to hold onto all that material, and we do now.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: Um, we're, we're kind of post-pandemic now, and we're- Mm-hmm expecting students to be able to handle midterms and finals, and they ha- they don't know how to do that.
• 45:17
  Speaker: Well, I just love that whole list of skills you mentioned because it really is...
• 45:20
  Speaker: I, I intro'd us saying your toolkit and my toolkit are such a nice complement.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 45:28
  Speaker: It seems like we, between the two of us, we have ways to deal with all of the problems you just mentioned.
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Time management, developing systems for managing materials, developing, uh, systems and strategies for studying, um- Yeah and developing, um, self-care.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: How do you self-advocate?
• 45:48
  Speaker 2: How do you make sure you're getting your sleep and your nutrition and, uh, exercise so that you're not- Right fatigued and you're not, um, uh, uh, y- y- you know, stressed.
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that's- Mm we, we need to teach all of those skills.
• 46:06
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 46:07
  Speaker: Yeah.
• 46:07
  Speaker: Stressed and then overloaded.
• 46:08
  Speaker: Like, when we, when we are doing good self-care, there's a way in which our overload can kind of sort itself out a little bit so that we can manage- Yes the other parts of the overload.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: And I find that a favorite definition of emotional regulation is the ability to tolerate discomfort.
• 46:26
  Speaker: Mm-hmm.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: And we need students to tolerate discomfort, be able to do tasks that they don't like to do simply because they- Right need to do them.
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, you do need to review your notes.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you do need- Mm-hmm to do some research.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you do need to write even though you don't like doing all those things.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: And being able to have the strategies and tools that make that-
• 46:49
  Speaker: Mm-hmm
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: as tolerable and as comfortable as possible.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: And I think that sometimes we have students going into college where there have been overprotective adults in their world, whether it's overprotective parents with a lot of parental involvement with the logistics of, their parents are helping to email teachers and manage schedules and monitor the, you know, school portals and, um, you know, checking that everything's been turned in.
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: You know, we don't want the parents doing the self-management- Mm-hmm nor do we want coaches taking- Right on that role.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Um, you absolutely want students to be able to understand, how can I be uncomfortable?
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: Like, this- Mm is kind of a drag and this feels hard- Mm but I know I can do it.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: And, and, and here's the strategies that give me the confidence to know that I can do it.
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: So we really wanna make sure that we're supporting that.
• 47:44
  Speaker: Yes.
• 47:44
  Speaker: Yes.
• 47:45
  Speaker: I'll just snap, snap, snap that.
• 47:49
  Speaker: Uh-
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: Absolutely
• 47:50
  Speaker: and I'm aware I want to do some gestures to remind me and everybody.
• 47:54
  Speaker: If we wanna find out more about you, I go...
• 47:56
  Speaker: What do I type?
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: Uh, efpractice.com.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: So E like executive, F like function.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: efpractice.com.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: Best way to reach us.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Lots of resources and tools there.
• 48:08
  Speaker: Great.
• 48:08
  Speaker: And then if I want to- This is my mouse.
• 48:11
  Speaker: I wanna go click on some of your courses.
• 48:14
  Speaker: Is there a particular thing that I click on?
• 48:16
  Speaker: A- and audio people, you can't see me doing the gestures.
• 48:18
  Speaker: Sorry about that, but I'm doing them.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: The clicking.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: Um, I would say there's really probably a couple things.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Um, the events aspe- events, um, tab- Gotcha on our website really lists all of the upcoming events and webinars, et cetera.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Mm.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: And then of course, we have our online shop, which has, um, webinars for purchase, as well as lots of materials to support executive function.
• 48:43
  Speaker: Great.
• 48:44
  Speaker: And if you wanna go grab something of Sarah's, and then also grab something of mine, if you're new to me, you can go to antiboringlearninglab.com/resources, and we have a free library with some things in that as well.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: Yay.
• 48:56
  Speaker: Oh, Sarah, this was fun.
• 48:57
  Speaker: I feel like you need to come back maybe every six months to check in.
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: Well, and right back at ya, I loved being able to connect with you.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: And you need to, uh, continue to give us your study strategies for our website as well.
• 49:08
  Speaker: Great.
• 49:09
  Speaker: Well, we're gonna record that next, so...
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Love it.
• 49:13
  Speaker: If we have time.
• 49:14
  Speaker: We will.
• 49:14
  Speaker: All right.
• 49:15
  Speaker: Take care.
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: So nice- Bye bye to see you.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Thank you again.