Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / Teaching Kids About Periods [with Kate Andrews from Wild Creative Australia]

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Teaching Kids About Periods [with Kate Andrews from Wild Creative Australia] · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:05
Speaker 1: Today on The Happy Family's podcast, You Got Me Kylie Coulson,
0:09
Speaker 1: missus Happy Families. I'm flying solo. The surf's pumping and
0:13
Speaker 1: Justin's left me at the desk. I'm not sure how
0:16
Speaker 1: this is going to go. What did your parents teach
0:20
Speaker 1: you about your first period? Was it even discussed or
0:23
Speaker 1: was it taboo? Were you nervous anxious? Did you dread
0:26
Speaker 1: it coming? Did you feel embarrassed and want to hide
0:28
Speaker 1: it from everyone? Today on the podcast, a conversation about
0:32
Speaker 1: periods and the importance of empowering our girls with knowledge
0:36
Speaker 1: about their bodies and how they work. Hello, Welcome to
0:42
Speaker 1: the Happy Families podcast, where you get real parenting solutions.
0:45
Speaker 1: Every day we're breaking them mold. Justin's gone surfing, He's
0:49
Speaker 1: left me in charge. I'm not sure how this is
0:51
Speaker 1: going to go, but we're going to give it our
0:54
Speaker 1: very best shot. Today we're speaking with Kate Andrews. She's
0:58
Speaker 1: the visionary founder of Wild Creative offering holistic education and
1:04
Speaker 1: Rights of Passage programs. Nature is her classroom and she
1:08
Speaker 1: runs a youth well being homeschool program outdoors all year round.
1:13
Speaker 1: She also facilitates Rights of Passage retreats and camps aimed
1:16
Speaker 1: at preteens and teens so they receive more meaningful puberty
1:20
Speaker 1: and period education. She feels all girls deserve to know
1:24
Speaker 1: their bodies are unique, ever, changing, and sacred, and there
1:28
Speaker 1: is a great power within the transformation that occurs with change.
1:32
Speaker 1: She believes all boys should feel safe enough to show
1:34
Speaker 1: the vulnerability that's required for healthy self expression without being
1:40
Speaker 1: criticized for it. Kate, you're a really big believer in
1:45
Speaker 1: period education. Why how does that come about?
1:49
Speaker 2: Yeah?
1:50
Speaker 3: I really believe that menstal health is connected to mental
1:53
Speaker 3: health and overall health outcomes. And you know how person
1:58
Speaker 3: is made to feel about their body and period is
2:01
Speaker 3: you know, the messages they receive during adolescence hugely impacts
2:04
Speaker 3: how they feel about those things. And if a girl
2:08
Speaker 3: is made to feel ashamed of her period and changing body,
2:13
Speaker 3: that's going to impact the way that she treats her
2:16
Speaker 3: body potentially for her whole life. So I think period
2:21
Speaker 3: education is deeply important because a period is just the
2:26
Speaker 3: natural function of the female body, right, Yeah, and girls
2:30
Speaker 3: deserve to actually feel comfortable with that instead of afraid
2:34
Speaker 3: or nervous or scared or pretending like it's not there.
2:38
Speaker 3: So that's why I think period education is hugely important.
2:41
Speaker 3: We also live in a culture that still really favors productivity,
2:46
Speaker 3: which I think comes at great cost to girls and
2:48
Speaker 3: women because we're not designed to thrive in that kind
2:52
Speaker 3: of environment. And if a girl, you know, the hormones
2:55
Speaker 3: that make us create, release an egg and then menstruate,
3:03
Speaker 3: I actually they affect our mood, our energy, our focus.
3:07
Speaker 3: And if a girl is made to feel there's something
3:09
Speaker 3: wrong with her because she's feeling really flat, or in
3:13
Speaker 3: pain with PMS and cramps, or just cannot focus, that's
3:19
Speaker 3: going to affect her mental health and her health outcomes
3:21
Speaker 3: and the way she treats herself in the future.
3:24
Speaker 1: I'm listening to what you're sharing and I'm wondering what
3:26
Speaker 1: your experience was growing up in relation to how you
3:31
Speaker 1: were educated and how the messages that you received were internalized.
3:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, great question for me. I did receive a basic education.
3:41
Speaker 3: From my mum when I was twelve, and I got
3:44
Speaker 3: my period at thirteen, but there was absolutely nothing about
3:49
Speaker 3: the energy shifts within the month and how I could
3:52
Speaker 3: harness them to better get through life and manage my
3:56
Speaker 3: own energy and moods. It was much more again of
4:00
Speaker 3: that pushing through and the most important part really is
4:04
Speaker 3: I'm perimenopausal now, which is the second adolescence, and no
4:09
Speaker 3: one gave me, i think, any of our generation and
4:11
Speaker 3: probably one hundreds going back, any education about what perimenopause is.
4:16
Speaker 3: But this is what made me write the body Wise
4:20
Speaker 3: of Puberty in Period Guidebook, because I realized that it
4:24
Speaker 3: isn't just getting a period and oh, welcome to womanhood.
4:28
Speaker 3: It's actually an entire life cycle where you are completely
4:34
Speaker 3: reconfiguring yourself at key points. So you know, at puberty,
4:39
Speaker 3: we are completely our brains, our bodies, the way we
4:42
Speaker 3: think about ourselves, our identity, the way we interact, the
4:45
Speaker 3: way we feel emotionally, everything is completely reconfigured.
4:50
Speaker 2: And that same thing happens at perimenopause.
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Speaker 3: So I really feel our period education was severely lacking,
4:58
Speaker 3: because it's something that a period is something you get
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Speaker 3: four hundred and fifty times on average in your life,
5:04
Speaker 3: and we should be made to feel empowered by it,
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Speaker 3: not to ignore it.
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Speaker 1: It's interesting because my experience was very similar to yours
5:12
Speaker 1: growing up. I wasn't phased by getting a period. I
5:17
Speaker 1: didn't get mine until I was about fourteen, but I
5:20
Speaker 1: didn't understand the cycle that my body was going through
5:24
Speaker 1: and all of those things, And it just makes me
5:27
Speaker 1: wonder how much harder it was for our parents and
5:31
Speaker 1: even their parents going through this process, which happens to
5:34
Speaker 1: more than fifty percent of the population, and not fully
5:38
Speaker 1: understanding it and understanding how to empower themselves through that process.
5:44
Speaker 1: And I thought it was interesting you mentioned this idea
5:47
Speaker 1: of women having to push through to keep busy, and
5:52
Speaker 1: I really resonate with that because I think so many
5:54
Speaker 1: times women feel that in order to I guess, have
5:59
Speaker 1: a sense of war eth they they have to be busy,
6:03
Speaker 1: they have to be producing something that suggests that they
6:07
Speaker 1: have meaning and worth in life in general. And I
6:10
Speaker 1: think that that's a really that's really important for us
6:14
Speaker 1: to kind of, I.
6:15
Speaker 2: Guess, be gentler on ourselves, right.
6:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, be gentler on ourselves and debunk that myth. Yeah, Like,
6:21
Speaker 1: our worth isn't about busyness, about production, about you know,
6:26
Speaker 1: our output. Our worth is just being you know, we're
6:30
Speaker 1: worthy beings just for being here. So we're talking about
6:34
Speaker 1: period education and I know that for you, you think
6:38
Speaker 1: that early education is vital for our girls specifically. Why
6:43
Speaker 1: is this?
6:44
Speaker 3: Well, I think that the key thing is it's actually
6:47
Speaker 3: about relationship building. So as a parent, if you make
6:52
Speaker 3: yourself a trusted resource for your kid to come and
6:54
Speaker 3: ask you real questions, honest questions, awkward questions. Because we
6:59
Speaker 3: didn't have a lot of foundational information to draw on.
7:03
Speaker 3: We're all flying by the seat of our pants, really,
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Speaker 3: aren't we. In so many ways. I really feel that
7:09
Speaker 3: you get to control the narrative. You also get to
7:12
Speaker 3: create yourself as a trusted resource for when things get
7:15
Speaker 3: curly when they're adolescents, and it will get curly, right,
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Speaker 3: And it's actually about empowering them to understand what's happening
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Speaker 3: inside their bodies like it's real, you know, it's not
7:29
Speaker 3: something that we can sort of pretend and gloss over.
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Speaker 3: Puberty and adolescence and some of those seismic changes, they're
7:36
Speaker 3: sismic changes. They are profound to the individual. And I
7:40
Speaker 3: think we have a responsibility to really give the education
7:44
Speaker 3: that our kids deserves so they can better just manage
7:49
Speaker 3: how they change and why they change.
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Speaker 2: You know.
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Speaker 3: It's like, I guess again, I want to fall back
7:55
Speaker 3: on my experience of paramenopause, because in the first few
7:59
Speaker 3: years I just had no framework and I was just
8:02
Speaker 3: reactive and feeling like I was falling apart.
8:04
Speaker 2: And that's a horrible feeling. You feel like you're failing
8:07
Speaker 2: no matter what you're trying to do, and our kids
8:11
Speaker 2: feel like that.
8:12
Speaker 3: I think puberty is equally seismic and profound because it
8:16
Speaker 3: changes you on every single level. And instead of creating
8:20
Speaker 3: a support structure for that, we really are just pushing
8:24
Speaker 3: through and kind of glossing over moments that could be
8:28
Speaker 3: really profound in terms of our kids feeling like, oh, yes,
8:33
Speaker 3: I know what that is because Mum or Dad or
8:35
Speaker 3: you know whoever it is told me.
8:37
Speaker 2: I get it. Thank goodness for that. You know that information.
8:42
Speaker 3: Now I know what to do with myself. I know
8:45
Speaker 3: that this will pass. You know, these sorts of things
8:47
Speaker 3: sound really obvious when you say them, but you really
8:51
Speaker 3: don't feel that way when you're the person that's changing.
8:54
Speaker 2: It's like just white knuckling through.
9:03
Speaker 1: Today we're speaking with Kate Andrews. She's the visionary founder
9:08
Speaker 1: of Wild Creative. She also facilitates Rights of Passage retreats
9:12
Speaker 1: and camps aimed at preteens and teens so they receive
9:16
Speaker 1: more meaningful puberty and period education. We have six girls
9:20
Speaker 1: in our house, and clearly there is a lot of
9:23
Speaker 1: hormones going on regularly. But one of the things that
9:30
Speaker 1: I have been really grateful throughout my process is just
9:34
Speaker 1: learning to be a little bit more gentle with myself.
9:36
Speaker 1: And I've learned that probably a lot later in my
9:38
Speaker 1: life than I would have liked to. And I would
9:44
Speaker 1: say it's that self education as we've gone through perimenopause
9:49
Speaker 1: and just feeling that lack of control over what's going
9:54
Speaker 1: on and understanding it. But I think that you're right.
9:58
Speaker 1: It has gifted my girl an opportunity to watch me
10:02
Speaker 1: go through it and recognize the areas in which they
10:06
Speaker 1: can be gentler on themselves as well. So I love
10:10
Speaker 1: that you've written a book, you said, called body Wise,
10:15
Speaker 1: a Puberty and Period Guide. Tell me about that. What's
10:19
Speaker 1: the education process that you're taking people through? Is this
10:22
Speaker 1: written for teenagers like girls going through puberty? Is this
10:27
Speaker 1: for parents? How does this work?
10:30
Speaker 2: Yeah?
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Speaker 3: So a lot of the books out there, as a parent,
10:33
Speaker 3: I felt like I couldn't leave in the bookshelf because
10:36
Speaker 3: there'd be like a section that was, for example, around
10:38
Speaker 3: sex education or things like that that my kids weren't
10:42
Speaker 3: ready for.
10:43
Speaker 2: So I really designed this book to be left around.
10:46
Speaker 3: It can be read from seven years plus. It can
10:50
Speaker 3: be read with your parent or alone. There's journal pages
10:54
Speaker 3: in there to encourage self reflection because often kids have
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Speaker 3: a lot more resilience, a lot more emotional intelligence, and
11:02
Speaker 3: a lot more self awareness than we give them credit for,
11:05
Speaker 3: or that they actually have an opportunity to share because
11:08
Speaker 3: often we are telling them things, we're not asking questions.
11:12
Speaker 2: So that was a really important.
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Speaker 3: Part of it. It's also designed to be like a
11:17
Speaker 3: personal resource, but the way it's designed, it's got a
11:21
Speaker 3: lot of nature elements throughout. Visually that I work in nature.
11:26
Speaker 3: I'm a holistic educator, so I run like a nature
11:28
Speaker 3: school for social emotional learning. So I spent a lot
11:31
Speaker 3: of time outdoors and seeing the connection that we have
11:35
Speaker 3: not just as women, but as human beings with the
11:37
Speaker 3: natural world. So there's a lot of threads of that
11:39
Speaker 3: throughout because I feel like that's deeply relatable. You know,
11:44
Speaker 3: instead of telling someone that you know there's seasons within
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Speaker 3: your cycle, your monthly cycle.
11:50
Speaker 2: By observing nature and its seasons and it's.
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Speaker 3: You know, life, death, rebirth cycle, you actually are organically
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Speaker 3: and you know, yeah, you're organically honoring what's happening within
12:03
Speaker 3: you as people?
12:05
Speaker 2: Does that make sense?
12:05
Speaker 1: Yeah? I love that.
12:06
Speaker 3: We just don't get kids enough kind of credit that
12:10
Speaker 3: they can take in information, you know that doesn't have
12:13
Speaker 3: to be cartoony, you know what I mean? So this
12:15
Speaker 3: is really I work with a lot of neurodiverse kids too.
12:18
Speaker 3: I mean to me, it's all diversity because I work
12:21
Speaker 3: in nature and we need diversity to thrive. But that's
12:24
Speaker 3: a whole other podcast, isn't it. Yeah, So there's a
12:29
Speaker 3: lot of you know, a lot of that in the book,
12:31
Speaker 3: and it's really it's We've got everything from anatomy and
12:35
Speaker 3: the physical changes to the mental emotional ones, and how
12:38
Speaker 3: looking after your mental emotional health is equally important as
12:42
Speaker 3: looking after your physical health, and just looking at it
12:45
Speaker 3: from a really holistic standpoint.
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Speaker 1: So did you envisage that this is something that parents
12:50
Speaker 1: would work alongside their kids or is this being written
12:55
Speaker 1: like in a way that a seven year old could
12:57
Speaker 1: pick it up and actually work through it on their own.
13:00
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's written in a way that's it's not walls
13:03
Speaker 3: of text.
13:05
Speaker 2: So I've written it really.
13:06
Speaker 3: Consciously where the illustrations will say what I'm saying in
13:10
Speaker 3: the words. If you know, because kids sometimes don't want
13:13
Speaker 3: to read. This is not a topic that kids go grouse. Yeah,
13:17
Speaker 3: let's read about pubity. Awesome, thanks, I want to know
13:19
Speaker 3: about my period. It's interactive with the journal pages and
13:22
Speaker 3: self reflection stuff as well as educational.
13:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. I love that. I was thinking
13:30
Speaker 1: about this idea of rights of passage and I with
13:36
Speaker 1: Justin's work. We have talked a lot about different cultures
13:39
Speaker 1: and there are definitely some cultures that do this process
13:44
Speaker 1: better than others, and I think as an Australian culture
13:50
Speaker 1: in general, we kind of lack when it.
13:52
Speaker 2: Comes to passage.
13:55
Speaker 1: We do tell me about your rights of passage work,
13:59
Speaker 1: What is an rop and why is it important?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, our culture really doesn't do it well. We're right,
14:07
Speaker 2: a writer.
14:07
Speaker 3: Passage is really a ceremonial event that honors and marks
14:12
Speaker 3: a transition or a big change in someone's life. So
14:16
Speaker 3: this could be puberty, it could be like a pregnancy blessing.
14:19
Speaker 2: It could be mothering.
14:21
Speaker 3: There's not nearly enough rituals and ceremonies around mothering and
14:25
Speaker 3: all of the the wild ride education that brings perimenopause,
14:29
Speaker 3: menopause aging. These are sort of seismic changing. I've use
14:33
Speaker 3: that word a lot, haven't I seismic? I think that
14:35
Speaker 3: that obviously embodies, you know, the intensity of change.
14:38
Speaker 2: I guess the point I'm trying to make is big.
14:41
Speaker 3: It's big, It's so big, and it's so important because
14:45
Speaker 3: a writer, passage is really important because it's actually.
14:48
Speaker 2: About acknowledgment and belonging.
14:52
Speaker 3: So acknowledgment of the individual who's changing and as they
14:57
Speaker 3: change and feel change is stranged in many ways, like
15:02
Speaker 3: for example, if it's a child moving into adolescence and
15:05
Speaker 3: young adulthood, you feel odd and kids are breaking away,
15:10
Speaker 3: they are leaving their childhood. A rite of passage, ceremony
15:13
Speaker 3: or event says, we see and acknowledge that you are
15:17
Speaker 3: growing up.
15:18
Speaker 2: We see and acknowledge you are becoming independent and your
15:21
Speaker 2: own person, and we love that. But you still need support,
15:25
Speaker 2: and here's your support crew. So the way it should work.
15:28
Speaker 3: Ideally is with the individual, the child or teenager, and
15:34
Speaker 3: then the family members should be involved because as a
15:38
Speaker 3: child changes, we need to alter the way we parent.
15:41
Speaker 3: As you would know very well, you've done it six
15:44
Speaker 3: times over. You know you would be best placed out
15:47
Speaker 3: of many, you know, so you really have to alter
15:49
Speaker 3: the way that you're parenting them because they're growing up
15:51
Speaker 3: sounds really obvious that I think we miss that as
15:54
Speaker 3: parents sometimes. And then the next kind of I see
15:58
Speaker 3: it like a series of concentric sir. The child is
16:01
Speaker 3: at the middle, the family is right outside that, and
16:04
Speaker 3: then their you know, grandparents, aunties, uncles, then their community.
16:09
Speaker 3: So naturally, as kids reach adolescents, they really want to
16:12
Speaker 3: break out of that family unit. But a lot of
16:14
Speaker 3: them don't know where to go because we haven't created
16:17
Speaker 3: a sense of belonging and anchored them into community. And
16:20
Speaker 3: that's why things like the manisphere are so huge, because
16:24
Speaker 3: you've got a lot of boys who and I think
16:27
Speaker 3: for boys in particular, they really seek mentors.
16:31
Speaker 2: Naturally, I think it's really.
16:33
Speaker 3: In their wiring and their DNA, and we are not
16:36
Speaker 3: providing that for them. And then when they get online,
16:39
Speaker 3: because that's where they seek it these days, there's a
16:42
Speaker 3: manisphere and a whole other host of things, and it's like, oh,
16:45
Speaker 3: but you know, they feel welcome, and they feel like
16:47
Speaker 3: a sense of belonging, and they feel understood and acknowledged,
16:52
Speaker 3: and that's where the problems lie.
16:53
Speaker 2: So right of passage is deeply important in acknowledging, but
16:58
Speaker 2: also helping individuals connected to the people that loved them
17:02
Speaker 2: the most.
17:04
Speaker 1: I love that.
17:05
Speaker 3: I love that.
17:05
Speaker 1: There's a quote it takes a village to grow a child,
17:10
Speaker 1: and it's something that has resonated with me my whole life.
17:14
Speaker 1: I remember as a young girl, I had a very
17:18
Speaker 1: contentious relationship with my mum, and I was really grateful that,
17:23
Speaker 1: in spite of the fact that we didn't necessarily have
17:25
Speaker 1: a great relationship, she provided a village. And it was
17:31
Speaker 1: those women that supported me and loved me, and most importantly,
17:37
Speaker 1: they actually taught me of my mum's humanity. When I
17:41
Speaker 1: was in my deepest struggles with her as a teenager
17:44
Speaker 1: and was being a little bit rebellious based on what
17:48
Speaker 1: she would like me to do. These were women who
17:51
Speaker 1: honored her, honored her heart, honored her goodness, and reminded
17:55
Speaker 1: me that one experience or one behavior or one challenge
18:00
Speaker 1: didn't define who she was as a person. And so
18:03
Speaker 1: as a mum, that is something that I have really
18:06
Speaker 1: strived to bring into my girls' lives. I recognize that
18:10
Speaker 1: as one person, I can't be everything to them. I
18:13
Speaker 1: would love to be, but I can't. I can't give
18:15
Speaker 1: them all the things that they need. But I know
18:18
Speaker 1: beautiful women who have supported each of my children in
18:22
Speaker 1: different ways at different times and done it so beautifully.
18:26
Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful for that because there is so
18:28
Speaker 1: much power in recognizing our own limitations but accepting that
18:33
Speaker 1: there are other people out there who can give so
18:36
Speaker 1: much to them to help them grow into these beautiful,
18:38
Speaker 1: healthy people.
18:39
Speaker 3: I think that's a great point. I also, you know,
18:42
Speaker 3: I feel and see like the emotion that comes with
18:44
Speaker 3: that memory, and it is because you know, when we're
18:48
Speaker 3: leaving our childhood, it's a profound you know, you would
18:53
Speaker 3: have seen like the memes and stuff.
18:55
Speaker 2: It's the longest breakup.
18:57
Speaker 3: It's painful for both parties for different reasons. And when
19:01
Speaker 3: I think you felt held by that community that your
19:04
Speaker 3: mother put in place, that's really powerful because that would
19:08
Speaker 3: have kept you anchored into something safe and often if
19:13
Speaker 3: we again this ties into the right of passage stuff,
19:16
Speaker 3: if we don't provide that or put really important, solid
19:20
Speaker 3: people in front of our kids to go out to
19:22
Speaker 3: when they're seeking help and support, it's kind of like
19:26
Speaker 3: they're a balloon or a kite that's been let go
19:28
Speaker 3: of and they feel really it's frightening.
19:31
Speaker 2: The world is frightening.
19:33
Speaker 3: And I'm reminded of doctor Lisa Damore, who wrote a
19:36
Speaker 3: brilliant book of Untangled, and she uses the analogy of
19:41
Speaker 3: you know, the parents of the swimming pool, and the
19:44
Speaker 3: world is the water, and any good swimmer, when they've
19:47
Speaker 3: been buffeted around or dumped a few times, comes back
19:50
Speaker 3: to the edge. And that is really important that the
19:54
Speaker 3: edge just isn't only parents, it's their community because sometimes
19:59
Speaker 3: they don't want to spin back to.
20:00
Speaker 2: Us and it hurts.
20:03
Speaker 3: But like you say, it's so important we recognize we
20:06
Speaker 3: can't provide everything and nor should we.
20:09
Speaker 1: So as we wrap things up, Kate, if you could
20:11
Speaker 1: give parents two or three take homes from what we've
20:15
Speaker 1: discussed today, what would you want them to hold on
20:19
Speaker 1: to and move forward with?
20:20
Speaker 2: Great question?
20:22
Speaker 3: The number one thing that comes to me is have
20:28
Speaker 3: honest conversations. Our kids feel and see what's going on.
20:34
Speaker 3: They observe more than listen. And be honest about what's happening,
20:38
Speaker 3: no matter what it is. Not just about puberty periods,
20:42
Speaker 3: be honest about your perimenopause, be honest about where you're at.
20:45
Speaker 3: I think that really counts for a lot because honesty
20:49
Speaker 3: is relationship building and it is tied to your authenticity.
20:55
Speaker 3: And I would also say don't shy away from difficult
20:58
Speaker 3: topics because they're going to go looking in a lot
21:01
Speaker 3: of funkier places than you want them to. It's so
21:04
Speaker 3: important that we have the guts. We need the guts
21:08
Speaker 3: to have the difficult conversations. And I have great compassion
21:12
Speaker 3: for our generation because the pendulum has really swung from
21:16
Speaker 3: like this isn't happening, sweep it all under the rug,
21:19
Speaker 3: to neuro divergence and emotions that all emotions are valid,
21:23
Speaker 3: Like the pendulums really swung to opening up everything that
21:25
Speaker 3: needs to be shut down. So we are really learning
21:28
Speaker 3: on the fly. I feel our generation of parents about
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Speaker 3: what to do and how to do it openly and honestly.
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Speaker 3: But I think when we show our kids that we
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Speaker 3: can make mistakes but muddle through with them honestly, I
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Speaker 3: think that they will value that beyond anything.
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Speaker 1: So if people wanted to grab a copy of your book, Kate,
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Speaker 1: where would they go?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, they can get the copy of the book on
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Speaker 3: the website which is wild Creative Australia dot com.
21:56
Speaker 1: Thanks for a great conversation, Kate. The Happy Families podcas
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Speaker 1: cast is produced by Justin Roland at Bridge Media. Mem
22:03
Speaker 1: Hammond's provides additional admin support and if you'd like more
22:07
Speaker 1: information about anything we spoke about today, including a copy
22:10
Speaker 1: of Kate's latest book, check the show notes for more details.