Latest / Roast the Post Podcast / Special: Jen and Paul Write a Job Ad

Transcript

Special: Jen and Paul Write a Job Ad · Roast the Post Podcast

0:01
SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Jen.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: This is the show where we read job postings a little too closely.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: On Roast the Post,
0:07
SPEAKER_00: we dig into the story behind the bullet points,
0:09
and this one raises a few questions you'll want answered before
0:12
hitting apply.
0:14
SPEAKER_00: Let's roast.
0:20
Hey everybody,
0:20
we are doing a extra special bonus episode of Roast the Post
0:24
today.
0:25
SPEAKER_02: Jen and I were chit-chatting and she is writing a job post for something.
0:30
SPEAKER_02: And as we were talking about it,
0:31
SPEAKER_02: we kind of said to ourselves,
0:32
it would be really cool if we unpacked this live on the show
0:37
and worked through
0:38
something that we're collaborating on to give kind of more of a
0:41
sense of how
0:42
co-designing a role can add a lot to an organization that's
0:45
really thinking about
0:46
SPEAKER_02: their talent management systems and practices.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: It's a bit of an experiment.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: It'll be a bit of a prototype.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: It'll be a little bit of fun.
0:53
SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure we're going to say some goofy stuff.
0:55
SPEAKER_02: So bear with us.
0:56
SPEAKER_02: But we hope you enjoy.
0:57
SPEAKER_02: We hope you find it useful.
0:58
SPEAKER_02: All right, Jen, why don't you get us into what the role is all about?
1:04
SPEAKER_02: And we'll just kind of start talking through it.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so the role itself is an executive assistant for a
1:15
kind of impact focused venture capital firm a smaller firm not
1:22
too huge portfolio
1:24
SPEAKER_00: come a portfolio of about 28 to 30 companies and a leadership team of six
1:35
and total headcount of about 12 so 50 50 leadership and
1:41
employee count uh for
1:42
SPEAKER_00: whatever reason that's just the way that it has played out um and so the
1:47
organization is just kind of struggling with the administrative
1:52
operational side of
1:53
SPEAKER_00: things and there's a lot going on um going into fundraising uh this year
1:59
it would be nice to have someone to get things organized so
2:05
general executive
2:06
assistant type duties light touch support at the executive
2:11
level the leadership
2:12
team has made it very clear that they still want to own their
2:17
calendars and those
2:18
SPEAKER_00: types of things but
2:20
SPEAKER_00: This company does quite a few in-person events throughout the year,
2:23
SPEAKER_00: so someone to help with that kind of coordination,
2:27
SPEAKER_00: maybe finding venues,
2:29
SPEAKER_00: booking venues,
2:31
SPEAKER_00: hotel or like Airbnb type accommodations.
2:37
A lot of people have also indicated that they still want to
2:39
keep booking their own
2:40
SPEAKER_00: flights and things like that.
2:43
um yeah it's more going to be making sure that balls don't get
2:47
dropped and keeping
2:49
things organized as the firm goes into very busy period this
2:54
would be a permanent
2:55
full-time position remote located in Canada ideally someone
3:01
with uh venture capital
3:04
SPEAKER_00: private equity finance type background um and somebody who would be
3:10
required to build systems from scratch this is a net new role
3:16
um so looking for
3:19
SPEAKER_00: someone to kind of take ownership of
3:22
designing systems processes and that experience then would come
3:29
in really handy so
3:30
that's kind of a background of the role the role itself would
3:33
report to the VP of
3:35
people operations because it just feels a little bit more
3:39
centralized and because
3:41
SPEAKER_00: none of the executive team the whole point of having this role is to
3:49
SPEAKER_00: take things off their plate.
3:50
SPEAKER_00: And so having another person to report to them is not ideal for anyone.
3:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: So this is the job title is being branded as executive assistant.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: But from what I kind of pick out of what you described so far,
4:09
SPEAKER_02: this is kind of an operations coordinator type role.
4:12
SPEAKER_02: You know,
4:13
that skill set is going to be very important for I think the
4:17
success of this role
4:18
within the context of they're helping to make the business
4:23
operate in a more
4:25
SPEAKER_02: streamlined,
4:25
SPEAKER_02: more effective way,
4:26
SPEAKER_02: you know,
4:27
SPEAKER_02: take off.
4:28
some of the itty bitty things of like organizing events and uh
4:31
you know there's
4:32
there's some stuff that's probably going to relate to expenses
4:34
and travel even if
4:36
the team really wants to still maintain their own calendars and
4:39
book their own
4:40
travel there's probably going to be a lot of supportive things
4:42
there so this this
4:43
might not be a traditional ea role it might be a role where the
4:48
person who's
4:48
successful needs to think a lot more about how to process work
4:54
and how to automate
4:55
SPEAKER_02: some stuff
4:56
and how to not consolidate work and consolidate power but make
5:03
it more effective
5:04
and efficient to run the current structures inside the context
5:08
of that organization
5:09
SPEAKER_02: so it's it's an interesting role for sure
5:12
You make such a good point because I think as I was growing out
5:17
the list of
5:18
SPEAKER_00: responsibilities and thinking about things like,
5:21
SPEAKER_00: you know,
5:21
SPEAKER_00: what does success look like?
5:23
SPEAKER_00: What would the first 30, 60, 90 days look like?
5:26
SPEAKER_00: It occurred to me that this isn't a traditional executive assistant role.
5:31
SPEAKER_00: I also thought about project coordinator.
5:35
uh as well like you said ops coordinator um those kinds of
5:39
titles so i think that's
5:40
that's the first thing is really breaking down what is this
5:44
title and it has to be
5:48
SPEAKER_00: bang on because it has to attract the right people
5:51
for the role we've talked in the past about like you know job
5:56
posting for the
5:57
candidate pool that you're trying to attract and it would be a
6:01
huge missed
6:02
opportunity for to miss out on ops coordinators or project
6:07
coordinators project
6:08
management coordinators because they looked at the title and it
6:12
said executive
6:13
assistant they're like that's not me that's not what I want to
6:16
do so that's a
6:17
SPEAKER_00: really really good point the first and foremost thing here is
6:22
SPEAKER_00: What is the job title?
6:24
It might be interesting to to test out multiple job titles with
6:29
essentially the
6:29
SPEAKER_02: same post,
6:30
SPEAKER_02: right?
6:30
Because we've talked on the show before about how how certain
6:35
titles in certain
6:36
SPEAKER_02: terms can very much code to certain particular groups of people.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: And if you think about that coding,
6:43
SPEAKER_02: like we did an episode with an executive assistant role,
6:45
SPEAKER_02: executive assistant plus office manager role.
6:49
And we talked a lot about the the kind of gender specific
6:52
coding was inherent in that title.
6:54
SPEAKER_02: So with going with an executive assistant here,
6:56
SPEAKER_02: you might actually find that the same dynamics are in play.
7:00
So it could be really interesting to pass different job titles
7:03
and see what you got.
7:04
SPEAKER_00: That is such a great suggestion.
7:06
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
7:07
SPEAKER_00: And even if the body of I mean,
7:10
SPEAKER_00: this is something that we'll get into,
7:11
SPEAKER_00: too,
7:12
SPEAKER_00: as well,
7:13
is that the body of the job posting might have to vary a little
7:16
bit based on those
7:17
SPEAKER_00: job titles.
7:18
SPEAKER_00: But you're absolutely right.
7:20
SPEAKER_00: It's a great opportunity to see what comes back.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm interested.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm interested in doing that.
7:26
SPEAKER_00: So, well, I'll definitely have to play around with it.
7:31
SPEAKER_00: So the job posting, maybe I'll just go through what I have right now.
7:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, why don't we start with the structure of the job post.
7:39
SPEAKER_02: And for the folks at home,
7:41
we're going to put a copy of this job post up on Google Drive
7:47
like we normally do,
7:47
SPEAKER_02: and we'll put a link to everything in the show notes.
7:49
So you hit the episode landing page and you can kind of see
7:52
what we're talking
7:52
SPEAKER_02: about here and writing and follow along if you want.
7:55
um but why don't we start with with the structure what are the
7:57
different sections
7:58
of the role in order and what's your thinking behind um that
8:04
structure let's let's
8:05
start there and we'll just kind of peel back the layers of the
8:07
onion a little bit
8:08
as we go absolutely um so the structure begins with about the
8:13
company um and again
8:18
SPEAKER_00: important thing to know.
8:19
SPEAKER_00: Who is this company?
8:20
SPEAKER_00: What are they doing?
8:21
SPEAKER_00: What are they all about?
8:23
SPEAKER_00: Goes into the role.
8:25
SPEAKER_00: So a brief summary of the role itself.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: Key responsibilities.
8:31
SPEAKER_00: Then we have reporting structure.
8:34
SPEAKER_00: Location and work environment.
8:37
SPEAKER_00: What we're looking for, I guess, aka qualifications.
8:43
SPEAKER_00: And compensation and benefits.
8:47
SPEAKER_00: Then we go into the hiring process.
8:49
SPEAKER_00: So what the candidate can expect.
8:52
SPEAKER_00: Then we have our AI disclosure and then a note on accommodations.
9:00
SPEAKER_00: That's the basic structure.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: My issue is that I want to provide as much information as possible.
9:10
SPEAKER_00: It starts to get really long.
9:13
that's where i'm concerned now i don't know that might not be
9:16
an issue for for
9:17
SPEAKER_00: people that just might be me worrying that it's too long i think the more
9:22
information the better we talk about this a lot listing out
9:25
when we talk about
9:25
listing out your benefits and being specific well that takes up
9:28
a lot of space as
9:30
well when you add what the hiring process is uh that also takes
9:34
up some space so i
9:36
SPEAKER_00: could be thinking
9:39
SPEAKER_00: that something is a problem when it's really not.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: And when I say too long, we're at four pages on a Google Doc.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: That's long at a 12 point font.
9:52
SPEAKER_00: So that's long.
9:54
SPEAKER_02: I have a bit of a pedantic question to start with.
9:58
SPEAKER_02: So in your structure that you've outlined,
10:00
SPEAKER_02: you have the section about the company,
10:04
SPEAKER_02: the hiring company as your first section.
10:07
Why did you choose to put this at the start of the job post
10:11
versus at the end?
10:12
SPEAKER_02: Because we look at a lot of job posts,
10:14
SPEAKER_02: job ads,
10:16
SPEAKER_02: where the employer branding is kind of tacked on at the end.
10:19
SPEAKER_02: Why did you put it first?
10:21
SPEAKER_00: I think because this specific organization I had mentioned there,
10:25
SPEAKER_00: it's a lot about impact investing.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: And I think that needs to be really important to the candidate.
10:35
for the type of people that we attract to the organization are
10:40
folks who care about
10:43
the mission and the mission is quite unique without going into
10:47
too much detail it
10:48
is a very very unique mission yes the the work itself venture
10:53
capital whatever very
10:56
SPEAKER_00: common but it's the type
10:58
of investments that are being made and so um that's that's one
11:03
reason why i really
11:04
want to make sure that that connects with the um applicants the
11:09
other reason why is
11:10
SPEAKER_00: um i'm trying to be i'm trying not to give too much detail here but
11:17
The job posting is hoping to attract a specific person in a
11:22
specific demographic.
11:24
SPEAKER_00: So not just mission driven, but some diversity would be appreciated here.
11:33
SPEAKER_00: And it says so.
11:35
SPEAKER_00: It actually says so in the job posting somewhere.
11:37
So instead of me trying to make up the language,
11:40
why don't I just tell you what it says?
11:41
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
11:45
we strongly encourage applications from indigenous
11:47
professionals and value lived
11:50
experience alongside professional experience also experience
11:54
working within
11:55
indigenous organizations communities or initiatives is
11:58
considered a strong asset so
11:59
that's part of the reason why I put about the company at the
12:02
very beginning because
12:03
right off the bat if somebody can identify with that then we
12:08
will have captured
12:08
SPEAKER_00: their attention and
12:10
SPEAKER_00: Also for those who might not be interested in that,
12:13
SPEAKER_00: unfortunately,
12:14
SPEAKER_00: we live in a world where that might be a deterrent for some people.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: And so naming it right off the bat to me is a filter.
12:22
SPEAKER_02: Mm hmm.
12:23
Yep,
12:24
yep,
12:24
it's a bi-directional filter to kind of have that stuff out
12:27
there.
12:27
SPEAKER_02: And what I kind of like about your explanation and what I've seen,
12:32
SPEAKER_02: I'm just kind of skimming through the job post now,
12:35
SPEAKER_02: what I kind of see is you're taking that mission-driven kind of purpose.
12:40
and anchor it and like you're anchoring it to the very top of
12:43
the role so that like
12:46
you said you know someone who it really resonates with like
12:48
it's going to be front
12:49
and center and you know hopefully get them a little bit engaged
12:52
and excited to
12:53
continue on with the role so let's let's keep on going through
12:57
this you know the
12:57
next section that you have after the employer branding part the
13:00
about the company
13:01
SPEAKER_02: part
13:02
SPEAKER_02: is the role itself.
13:03
SPEAKER_02: So you've got the role, the key responsibilities.
13:07
SPEAKER_02: Let's start there.
13:09
SPEAKER_02: When to read off the role and we'll kind of get into that.
13:12
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
13:13
The executive assistant role is a newly created position that
13:17
comes at a pivotal
13:18
SPEAKER_00: moment for this company.
13:20
We are intentionally designing this position to act as a
13:22
central coordination point
13:24
SPEAKER_00: across leadership,
13:25
SPEAKER_00: fundraising and internal operations.
13:28
SPEAKER_00: And there's that word that you mentioned again, operations.
13:32
sometimes we need a second set of eyes right to be like it's
13:35
very obviously
13:36
speaking to operations so um yes uh as such you will help shape
13:42
how the position
13:42
evolves influence systems and workflows early and play a
13:46
meaningful part in
13:47
building this company's next phase of growth so that's a
13:51
describer of the role
13:53
SPEAKER_00: curious as to you know what you think might be missing here
13:58
yeah red flags green flags beige flags or do you want me to go
14:04
into responsibilities first
14:07
Well,
14:07
let's,
14:07
let's pause here and just talk about that section for a little
14:10
bit.
14:11
SPEAKER_02: So you,
14:11
SPEAKER_02: you,
14:11
SPEAKER_02: you teased out that this,
14:12
SPEAKER_02: you know,
14:13
SPEAKER_02: you use the word operations and,
14:15
SPEAKER_02: you know,
14:15
SPEAKER_02: we,
14:15
SPEAKER_02: we talked about that a little bit at the start where it was like,
14:18
SPEAKER_02: this really seems like an operations and systems type role.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: The thing that's popping up for me right now is perhaps,
14:26
are you going to do yourself a disservice by branding this as
14:30
executive assistant?
14:31
Are you going to inadvertently screen out or filter out people
14:37
who they don't even
14:38
SPEAKER_02: click into the job role?
14:39
SPEAKER_02: They just see, you know, that big list of LinkedIn jobs.
14:42
SPEAKER_02: And it's like, you know, this company is hiring an EA.
14:46
SPEAKER_02: You know, are they going to just be like, man, I'm not an EA.
14:48
SPEAKER_02: See you later.
14:49
When perhaps they are an operations professional and they
14:53
really would dig this
14:54
SPEAKER_02: job,
14:55
SPEAKER_02: but they skip that part.
14:56
Like,
14:56
I wonder,
14:57
maybe you're going to do yourself a disservice through that
14:59
kind of dynamic.
15:01
SPEAKER_00: And on the flip side of that,
15:03
SPEAKER_00: we've talked about how EA roles when they're posted,
15:07
SPEAKER_00: you are going to get thousands of applicants because again,
15:12
SPEAKER_00: perceived as a lower barrier to entry type role.
15:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh,
15:16
SPEAKER_00: and so any kind of administrative type role,
15:19
SPEAKER_00: you're going to see so many applicants that it's almost overwhelming.
15:23
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that you're right.
15:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, it'll either, um,
15:28
get folks who are like ops coordinator type roles not
15:31
interested in it or have a
15:33
lot of the wrong type of applicants um so yeah i think you're
15:39
right i think the
15:40
biggest thing here is whether or not this is the correct title
15:42
for the role
15:44
SPEAKER_02: And you also, we talked about AI a little bit.
15:47
SPEAKER_02: You have an AI disclosure.
15:48
SPEAKER_02: And we're just kind of jumping ahead a little bit, folks, sorry.
15:53
But the AI disclosure is basically,
15:55
we don't use AI in the screening or the hiring process.
15:58
SPEAKER_02: Your interview is looked at, or your application is looked at by people.
16:02
SPEAKER_02: And you'll be talking to people in the interview.
16:04
It's a very human-centric process that you outline in that
16:07
disclosure statement.
16:09
SPEAKER_02: But that's great.
16:11
SPEAKER_02: I personally love that.
16:12
I don't like automated systems that are poorly designed in the
16:15
hiring process.
16:16
But combined with you're going to get a ton of applications
16:20
because of the
16:21
SPEAKER_02: perception of a low barrier role.
16:23
Are you are you inadvertently perhaps putting like a
16:28
screwdriver in the lock to the dike?
16:29
And is it going to burst open and flood you with stuff that you
16:31
can't possibly get
16:32
SPEAKER_02: through too many applications?
16:34
SPEAKER_02: Maybe that'll happen.
16:35
SPEAKER_02: Those two things together.
16:36
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that'll happen.
16:37
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know if we want to go into that a little bit now.
16:40
SPEAKER_00: We might as well.
16:42
This is kind of an experimental structure right now that we're
16:44
working with.
16:46
SPEAKER_02: We're free-forming it.
16:47
SPEAKER_00: This is a good question.
16:48
SPEAKER_00: So when you say that,
16:50
SPEAKER_00: like for this organization,
16:52
SPEAKER_00: there is no applicant tracking software or anything like that.
16:56
SPEAKER_00: So it is a tool like submit via email.
17:00
SPEAKER_02: So you're going to be running this process on spreadsheets.
17:04
absolutely absolutely running the process on spreadsheets i am
17:07
okay with that
17:08
personally um because one i have the bandwidth and two um i
17:12
have the desire to
17:14
almost case study this process as well um i've you know early
17:21
days spreadsheet
17:22
style and then midpoint career lots of applicant tracking
17:26
systems lots of ats um
17:29
SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of going back to the basics,
17:31
because I really want to understand the difference at the
17:36
difference in the
17:36
SPEAKER_00: process.
17:37
SPEAKER_00: So, yes, overwhelmed.
17:38
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
17:39
SPEAKER_00: But my there is a bit of a plan.
17:42
There is a bit of a method to the madness and it is posting it
17:48
short term.
17:49
uh post it keep it up for just a few days uh and then pause it
17:56
or take it down and
17:57
then assess and repost if needed um to be able to handle the
18:03
influx of applications
18:05
i also wonder if whether or not that's actually going to be
18:08
true in this case like
18:10
SPEAKER_00: i said it's a very specific um
18:14
SPEAKER_00: candidate that we're looking for.
18:16
It's a very specific organization that might not necessarily
18:23
attract everyone.
18:24
And,
18:24
you know,
18:25
for me,
18:25
when I applied for the organization,
18:27
I was hesitant.
18:28
I was hesitant because I didn't know that I was going to be the
18:31
right person for
18:32
SPEAKER_00: the role considering the organization.
18:35
SPEAKER_00: the organization itself.
18:37
SPEAKER_00: So I was very hesitant because I didn't want to take any missteps.
18:41
SPEAKER_00: I want to be really respectful of what the organization was trying to do.
18:44
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, it will be very, very interesting.
18:49
SPEAKER_00: My question for you is,
18:50
how would you then leverage AI without having an ATS to manage
18:55
the system,
18:57
SPEAKER_00: to manage the process?
18:59
SPEAKER_02: That's a great question.
19:01
I think that I would use AI in a kind of a knowledge generation
19:08
role in a process
19:09
SPEAKER_02: if it was me kind of starting this from scratch.
19:12
SPEAKER_02: So I would collect all of the applications.
19:17
SPEAKER_02: Hopefully they're
19:19
SPEAKER_02: you know, they're all in a format that can be copy pasted.
19:23
SPEAKER_02: So that,
19:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
19:24
for someone who's thinking about building an AI assisted hiring
19:27
process from
19:28
SPEAKER_02: scratch,
19:28
SPEAKER_02: like you got to think about that part.
19:30
SPEAKER_02: Because if the AI can't ingest the information,
19:34
SPEAKER_02: like if it's a PDF without the fonts embedded,
19:37
SPEAKER_02: if it's just like a bitmap or something,
19:39
SPEAKER_02: the AI system is not going to be able to read it.
19:41
so i would perhaps feed all of the uh applications into an ai
19:48
workspace that um
19:50
that had uh privacy controls embedded in it like there's at
19:54
least on chat gpt
19:55
SPEAKER_02: there's a setting where you can start the temporary session
19:57
And once you close the session,
19:59
all of the information that you fed into it is erased.
20:03
SPEAKER_02: I would do that for sure because you do not want PII,
20:06
SPEAKER_02: personally,
20:07
SPEAKER_02: identifiable information,
20:09
SPEAKER_02: making its way into a training model.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: That's a no-no.
20:12
SPEAKER_02: It's a legal no-no.
20:14
SPEAKER_02: Maybe they won't find out.
20:15
SPEAKER_02: Probably they won't find out.
20:17
But it's still an ethical no-no if they're not giving consent
20:20
for that purpose.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: And a shout out here to Paul and I,
20:25
SPEAKER_00: our friend over on Substack,
20:27
SPEAKER_00: Dr.
20:27
SPEAKER_00: Sam Illingworth talks about slow AI.
20:33
And one of the things that he's always talking about is don't
20:37
share anything in AI
20:39
SPEAKER_00: that you wouldn't want broadcasted on a billboard.
20:43
so that's a good reminder and you and you also remind me of
20:46
something else too like
20:47
specifically working within um uh indigenous frameworks there's
20:53
also um OCAD and
20:55
I'm not sure or OCAP sorry OCAP and OCAD are two very different
20:59
things um but
21:01
SPEAKER_00: basically uh
21:02
have is the first nations principles uh they establish how that
21:08
data that belongs
21:09
to indigenous first nations peoples and communities uh how the
21:13
data and information
21:14
will be collected protected used and shared and it's the
21:16
principle and belief that
21:17
SPEAKER_00: that is their
21:19
SPEAKER_00: information.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: And so you actually have to be very, very mindful about that as well.
21:24
SPEAKER_00: And again,
21:25
SPEAKER_00: if we're looking to hire someone with that background,
21:28
SPEAKER_00: then even more so being mindful with how you're using it.
21:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:35
kind of a theme that's woven throughout the general data
21:38
protection regulation is
21:39
SPEAKER_02: that consumers own PII,
21:43
SPEAKER_02: they own their data.
21:44
And Denmark's taken that a step further by saying that a
21:49
likeness is a copyright
21:51
SPEAKER_02: that is owned by the individual.
21:54
So an individual person automatically has the copyright to
21:57
their likeness,
21:58
which really means that if you're planning on ingesting their
22:02
likeness for training
22:03
SPEAKER_02: in an AI model,
22:05
SPEAKER_02: you need to seek permission for that.
22:07
SPEAKER_02: And it has to be explicit permission.
22:09
SPEAKER_02: It can't be implicit permission.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: So concepts like that exist in other parts of the world.
22:15
SPEAKER_02: And I think that generally policy is moving a lot in this direction.
22:19
SPEAKER_02: Now, back to how I would use AI in the hiring process.
22:23
Like I mentioned that I would use it as kind of like a
22:26
knowledge engine and do a
22:29
SPEAKER_02: little bit of classification work for me.
22:31
SPEAKER_02: So I would feed the resumes into the system in a temporary chat,
22:36
SPEAKER_02: a private chat that the information just gets deleted afterwards.
22:40
SPEAKER_02: And isn't it used in the model?
22:42
And I would ask the system to come up with highlights from each
22:47
resume that align
22:48
SPEAKER_02: with the job posting.
22:49
SPEAKER_02: So I would feed it the job posting too and be like, this is the job post.
22:52
SPEAKER_02: This is the organization.
22:53
SPEAKER_02: This is what I'm looking for.
22:55
SPEAKER_02: Create highlights for each of these resumes that line up to that.
23:02
And then I would use that information to guide my reading and
23:05
exploration of the
23:07
SPEAKER_02: applications that are received.
23:09
Like I wouldn't rely on that explicitly to kind of make the
23:12
decisions for me,
23:13
SPEAKER_02: but I would use it to say point me in the right direction.
23:15
SPEAKER_02: Because if you think about this in context, if you're going to get
23:18
you know a couple hundred resumes throughout your hiring
23:21
process that can be pretty
23:23
useful that can be pretty useful pretty big time saver I might
23:26
also use it to
23:27
create a a rubric or a matrix scoring people in different areas
23:32
based on what they
23:34
SPEAKER_02: what they put in their applications I might say okay
23:37
I want this characteristic and this characteristic and this
23:40
characteristic and this
23:41
SPEAKER_02: characteristic.
23:42
SPEAKER_02: That's stuff that people are going to be using all the time.
23:45
So grade each application on a scale of one to 10 in each and
23:49
then just give me a
23:50
SPEAKER_02: table output summarizing the scoring in each.
23:52
SPEAKER_02: And again,
23:53
SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't use that personally as a decision making engine,
23:57
but I would use that as like a guidepost for me to kind of do
24:00
my own analysis with
24:01
SPEAKER_02: my own eyes.
24:02
That's what lines up with what you've said you want from like
24:06
the hiring process.
24:07
SPEAKER_02: So that's my long-winded answer to your question.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: No, no, that's great.
24:11
SPEAKER_00: That's super helpful.
24:13
SPEAKER_00: I, you know, and it's not that I haven't used it before in the past.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: I just feel like like I said,
24:21
SPEAKER_00: this this to be a little bit of an experiment potential,
24:26
SPEAKER_00: a bit of a case study and could change.
24:31
I wonder if then it is because we also talked about like if you
24:35
don't use AI,
24:36
SPEAKER_00: you don't necessarily have to say you don't use AI.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: But I wonder if maybe it's worth changing to,
24:44
SPEAKER_00: because right now it says,
24:46
SPEAKER_00: for those who don't know,
24:47
SPEAKER_00: we haven't actually read out that part.
24:50
This company does not use artificial intelligence to screen,
24:53
rank or evaluate applications.
24:55
All applications are reviewed by humans and AI is not used as
24:59
part of interviews or
25:00
SPEAKER_00: hiring decisions.
25:02
SPEAKER_00: I wonder if it maybe needs to be reworded that
25:08
Because at the end of the day,
25:09
it will still,
25:10
you know,
25:11
the interviews,
25:12
that part is true.
25:12
SPEAKER_00: Hiring decisions, that part is true.
25:14
Potentially then maybe in an application like you mentioned to
25:20
help sort things out.
25:23
SPEAKER_00: How would you change the wording of that?
25:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm putting you on the spot.
25:26
SPEAKER_00: This whole thing is putting Paul on the spot.
25:28
SPEAKER_02: That's the point.
25:33
SPEAKER_00: Free consulting work right now.
25:34
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I feel so exploited.
25:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
25:40
SPEAKER_02: no,
25:41
SPEAKER_02: and for the listeners at home,
25:42
like this is definitely an experiment of Jen and I kind of
25:45
co-designing a role
25:46
together and we figured we'd record it for the show to see if
25:51
you folks could get
25:51
SPEAKER_02: something out of it too.
25:52
SPEAKER_02: So how would I change that disclosure statement?
25:56
SPEAKER_02: I would word it
25:59
In that scenario where I am going to use AI as a little bit of
26:03
a guidepost enabler,
26:06
SPEAKER_02: like a supporting piece of technology,
26:09
SPEAKER_02: I would reword it to emphasize that AI and automation technologies
26:16
will be used to help handle volume and to guide the assessment
26:25
of applications.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: But then I would also very,
26:28
SPEAKER_02: very clearly lay out that each application will be reviewed by a person.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: There is no algorithmic screening in or screening out from an AI tool.
26:39
SPEAKER_02: and that all people will be treated equally and fairly,
26:43
that those automation tools are really just to help manage the
26:47
process and kind of
26:48
SPEAKER_02: make it more productive and efficient.
26:52
I would probably also add a section to go along with the part
26:57
on the AI disclosure.
26:59
SPEAKER_02: I would add a section outlining use and retention of DII,
27:03
SPEAKER_02: person identified by information,
27:05
SPEAKER_02: because once we start getting into
27:08
this use of technology to augment the hiring process for some
27:12
people questions are
27:13
going to come up around how their PII is used so you might add
27:17
like a like a sub
27:18
kind of section or a rider or something to that disclosure
27:21
saying this is how we
27:22
SPEAKER_02: handle your PII like your resume will be retained for
27:26
SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
27:27
SPEAKER_02: three months,
27:27
SPEAKER_02: six months,
27:28
SPEAKER_02: whatever,
27:29
SPEAKER_02: whatever is kind of appropriate for this organization.
27:32
SPEAKER_02: This is how we'll use the information.
27:34
SPEAKER_02: These are the sub processors of data.
27:36
SPEAKER_02: These are the tools that will be used that will have access to your data.
27:40
SPEAKER_02: And these are the conditions upon which they have access.
27:44
SPEAKER_02: And in that,
27:44
SPEAKER_02: I would call it very explicitly that,
27:46
SPEAKER_02: you know,
27:47
SPEAKER_02: your PII will not be retained within an AI system.
27:51
it'll be operated on only within a private session and deleted
27:55
from that system and
27:56
not used in the training data like I'd be kind of clear about
28:00
that because not
28:01
everyone will think about stuff like that but for the people
28:04
who do think about
28:05
that incredibly important and you might inadvertently filter
28:09
people out just by not
28:10
SPEAKER_02: being clear about how that PII is handled
28:14
SPEAKER_00: This is interesting.
28:14
I'm taking notes just so for anyone like listening or we really
28:19
are co designing this live.
28:21
SPEAKER_00: This is this is happening live.
28:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm taking notes.
28:24
SPEAKER_00: But then I also get into the issue of like we talked about.
28:28
SPEAKER_00: Now we're at the bottom of page four.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: Right.
28:32
SPEAKER_00: So so we can talk if we want to about how to perfectly design.
28:37
I don't think either of us pretend that we could perfectly
28:40
design a job posting,
28:41
SPEAKER_00: but,
28:42
SPEAKER_00: you know,
28:43
SPEAKER_00: roasting other job posts.
28:45
But at the end of the day,
28:46
this is great information I as a candidate would want to know.
28:51
SPEAKER_00: all the things that you talked about,
28:52
SPEAKER_00: especially about PII,
28:53
SPEAKER_00: especially in this kind of sector that we're talking about as well.
28:58
SPEAKER_00: And now it's becoming a novel.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: And so where is that fine line?
29:03
I think you could also point to like an easy solution off the
29:08
top of my head is on
29:08
SPEAKER_00: your careers page.
29:10
on your website you can direct people there to learn more about
29:14
how we store data
29:15
blah blah blah go to this website i think that um makes the
29:19
most sense uh and it's
29:22
a good way to um give people access to make that information
29:27
accessible without
29:28
SPEAKER_00: writing um war and peace and a job posting
29:32
yeah yeah i mean uh yeah if you're if you're gonna like mimic
29:36
polstoy's work or do
29:37
they ask you or something like you don't want to do that job ad
29:40
yeah um and we saw
29:42
this recently in our episode uh about the barista fork coffee
29:48
shop um they they
29:50
took a pretty balanced approach by uh listing out like a bunch
29:54
of stuff that was
29:54
SPEAKER_02: really good um but they also had uh extended information
29:59
on their hiring website on their their special like website
30:02
that's just for talent
30:03
management and acquisition and whatever so you could look at
30:05
taking an approach
30:06
kind of similar to that where all of the things that all of the
30:11
sections the
30:11
SPEAKER_02: information that's in the job post right now the draft
30:15
It does make it into the final version of the job post,
30:19
but in a truncated way.
30:20
SPEAKER_02: So you could play around with the ordering of the sections,
30:24
SPEAKER_02: like maybe your AI disclosure is,
30:27
SPEAKER_02: you know,
30:27
SPEAKER_02: one sentence and it's like,
30:29
SPEAKER_02: basically,
30:30
SPEAKER_02: we use AI to support.
30:33
SPEAKER_02: but not to make decisions.
30:34
SPEAKER_02: There is no algorithmic screening involved in our process.
30:37
Read more here and then click on the link that goes out to the
30:39
organization's website.
30:40
Could just be a landing page or something that gets into more
30:43
detail around sub
30:44
SPEAKER_02: processors and data,
30:46
SPEAKER_02: PII and different things.
30:48
Like you could give the full meat there for people who it's
30:52
important to and not
30:54
SPEAKER_02: impact the experience negatively for people who just don't give a damn.
30:58
exactly exactly and because we talk about this a lot too like
31:02
it it's not just like
31:05
you have to design it for the masses and not just like specific
31:10
even though we say
31:11
like know who you're know who your candidate pool is and try to
31:15
um attract them
31:17
SPEAKER_00: specifically but also you don't want to isolate or anyone else um yeah
31:25
SPEAKER_00: So we jumped all the way to the bottom.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to the role.
31:32
SPEAKER_00: So we talked about kind of a summary of the role.
31:35
We talked about how it reads as operations coordinator so much
31:38
more so than executive assistant.
31:41
What are your thoughts on naming that it's a newly created
31:45
position and why?
31:48
and um what that means do you think that this is something that
31:52
should be included
31:53
do you think it's too much unnecessary information does it
31:56
matter i don't think
31:58
it's unnecessary information um i'm not going to say it doesn't
32:03
matter but i do i
32:05
SPEAKER_02: do wonder
32:08
SPEAKER_02: I do wonder how much it matters and why.
32:11
SPEAKER_02: If you think bigger picture,
32:13
SPEAKER_02: you think about the context,
32:14
like if you're seeking a professional who has done stuff like
32:18
this before,
32:18
SPEAKER_02: who's built systems kind of from the ground up in a net new environment,
32:23
SPEAKER_02: that's a very different
32:27
kind of task than it is to do change management on moving from
32:33
one system to another system.
32:35
SPEAKER_02: Those are two different beasts entirely.
32:38
So the person who's really serious about this,
32:40
they're going to want to know.
32:42
The person who's not really serious about this and hasn't
32:45
really done it before,
32:46
SPEAKER_02: it's not going to make a difference to them.
32:48
But this could be another point of filtering and selection that
32:52
kind of makes it
32:53
SPEAKER_02: makes it in and helps you improve the relevance of the role.
32:56
SPEAKER_02: I would personally keep it.
32:58
SPEAKER_02: I would say this is a net new role.
32:59
And I would also say this is why that matters and talk a little
33:03
bit about the
33:03
SPEAKER_02: desired outcomes from that.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: No, that's great.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: Let's get into the key responsibilities then.
33:11
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:12
SPEAKER_02: And the reporting structure too.
33:13
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: Should we go?
33:16
SPEAKER_00: We'll just keep going in order, though.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Role, key responsibilities, support leadership operations.
33:23
SPEAKER_00: There's that word again.
33:25
By coordinating meetings,
33:27
governance,
33:27
workflows and follow through across the team.
33:32
Strengthen fundraising and investor operations by maintaining
33:35
CRM integrity,
33:36
SPEAKER_00: managing materials and data rooms,
33:38
SPEAKER_00: and supporting LP,
33:40
SPEAKER_00: that's limited partners,
33:42
SPEAKER_00: communications and processes.
33:44
SPEAKER_00: Help drive strategic execution by maintaining project tracking systems,
33:49
SPEAKER_00: supporting cross-functional initiatives,
33:51
SPEAKER_00: and keeping priorities moving along.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: Coordinate travel events and firm logistics,
33:56
SPEAKER_00: including retreats,
33:57
SPEAKER_00: investor gatherings,
33:58
SPEAKER_00: and key organizational moments.
34:01
SPEAKER_00: maintain organized,
34:02
SPEAKER_00: accessible knowledge systems,
34:04
SPEAKER_00: including document management,
34:05
templates and governance materials and provide operational
34:09
support across the
34:10
SPEAKER_00: ecosystem.
34:12
SPEAKER_00: But the company's ecosystem by assisting with research,
34:14
SPEAKER_00: coordination and internal reporting as needed.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: And so I'm going to stop there.
34:18
SPEAKER_00: A couple of things that when we talk about read between the lines,
34:22
SPEAKER_00: there's a story being told here,
34:24
SPEAKER_00: too.
34:24
I'm sure you've probably picked up on it,
34:27
but the story is and you'll see it with
34:31
SPEAKER_00: Carolyn Gallagher,
34:32
Follow through support leadership follow through across the
34:36
teams is one of them
34:39
SPEAKER_00: keeping priorities moving forward.
34:41
is another one so you read things like that and you understand
34:45
right away that
34:47
there are um there are roadblocks there's bottlenecks and so
34:52
this rule would help
34:54
to ensure that um those the dams are open a little bit that we
35:00
can move things
35:01
along because some things balls are getting dropped mostly
35:04
administratively and so
35:06
SPEAKER_00: again
35:07
like like we said at the time into the whole reason that we
35:10
have this um like do
35:12
SPEAKER_00: that we're doing what we're doing with rose the post is so that
35:17
you can read between the lines that you understand the story
35:20
that the job posting
35:21
is telling you so to me what this is saying dancing around
35:25
without naming it is
35:26
that you're gonna have to nudge people a lot you're gonna have
35:30
to say hey don't
35:31
forget to sign those papers hey don't forget to reply to that
35:34
message right it's
35:36
SPEAKER_00: going to be a lot of that aka what we like to call herding cats
35:43
SPEAKER_02: That's exactly the phrase that was in my mind as you were reading that.
35:48
And I say this in the nicest way possible,
35:50
but that really means you're going to hurt some cats.
35:53
SPEAKER_02: Now,
35:53
SPEAKER_02: the question for a really on-point,
35:57
SPEAKER_02: intelligent person who is successful in getting this role,
36:01
SPEAKER_02: the question for them is...
36:04
How much of the cat herding is going to be done by you manually
36:09
through follow-ups
36:10
SPEAKER_02: and messages and emails and whatever?
36:12
SPEAKER_02: And how much can you automate?
36:14
What are the systems that you can bring to bear to make that
36:19
process of cat herding
36:21
SPEAKER_02: run at least partly without your direct intervention?
36:24
That's going to make the overall system much more kind of
36:28
functional and efficient.
36:29
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
36:31
And I think,
36:31
too,
36:32
one of the things is to understand that that is the nature of
36:35
rules like this.
36:37
When you're going to get executive assistant operations
36:39
coordinator type roles like
36:41
SPEAKER_00: this isn't to me,
36:42
SPEAKER_00: this isn't a red flag,
36:44
SPEAKER_00: because
36:45
SPEAKER_00: it is the nature of the role.
36:46
SPEAKER_00: But like you said,
36:47
SPEAKER_00: trying to automate,
36:49
SPEAKER_00: how can you make this less of a nudging role and give people the,
36:57
I guess this role should be empowering people to be able to do
37:01
the things that are
37:03
SPEAKER_00: creating,
37:03
like eliminate the bottlenecks and things like that passively
37:07
even without them
37:09
SPEAKER_00: having to have a big lift.
37:10
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, absolutely, absolutely agree.
37:13
Yeah,
37:13
the purpose of technology at the end of the day is to augment
37:16
the capabilities of humans.
37:17
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter what piece of technology it is.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't matter how it's deployed, where it's deployed.
37:23
SPEAKER_02: The purpose is to augment the capability of humans.
37:25
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes that means less humans are needed.
37:28
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it means that humans can do more.
37:31
SPEAKER_02: And in a kinder organization that really focuses on people,
37:36
SPEAKER_02: you really want it to be the latter,
37:38
SPEAKER_02: right?
37:39
One thing did stand out for me in that section that I would
37:42
call a pink flag.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: It's not red.
37:45
SPEAKER_02: It's not beige.
37:46
SPEAKER_02: It's pink.
37:49
SPEAKER_02: Acronyms, acronyms.
37:52
SPEAKER_02: CRM and LP are familiar acronyms to both of us,
37:57
SPEAKER_02: Customer Relationship Management System and Limited Partner.
38:00
SPEAKER_02: But you are going to want to cast your net outside.
38:05
SPEAKER_02: of the group,
38:06
SPEAKER_02: group of people who are,
38:08
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:09
SPEAKER_02: they're,
38:09
SPEAKER_02: they're everyday familiar with those acronyms.
38:11
SPEAKER_02: So always write it out the first time that it comes in the job posting,
38:14
SPEAKER_02: you know,
38:14
SPEAKER_02: write out customer relationship management in brackets,
38:17
SPEAKER_02: CRM,
38:18
SPEAKER_02: write out limited partner in brackets LP.
38:20
SPEAKER_02: And then after that,
38:21
SPEAKER_02: it's fine to use the acronym because you've,
38:22
SPEAKER_02: you've grounded that knowledge.
38:24
SPEAKER_02: So tip for the folks at home,
38:25
SPEAKER_02: when you're writing your own job ads,
38:27
SPEAKER_02: like always write it out in full first.
38:29
put the acronyms in brackets and then refer to it in the
38:33
acronym form if you want
38:34
SPEAKER_02: throughout your post as kind of relevant.
38:37
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely,
38:37
I mean we've talked about this many times and this is why ROSA
38:42
post is so important
38:43
SPEAKER_00: because like we everyone has blind spots,
38:45
SPEAKER_00: everybody forgets,
38:46
SPEAKER_00: everybody goes into autopilot and assumes that that the rest of the world
38:52
SPEAKER_00: understands
38:53
SPEAKER_00: whatever pattern language you use at your organization.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: And that's just not the case.
38:58
SPEAKER_00: That's just not the case.
38:59
SPEAKER_00: So I absolutely agree.
39:01
And going back to something that you said earlier too about
39:03
technology augmenting,
39:04
I think that it might be worth noting somewhere in the job
39:09
posting that this person
39:11
SPEAKER_00: will have the support
39:15
SPEAKER_00: from the organization to implement or,
39:19
SPEAKER_00: you know,
39:20
SPEAKER_00: new initiatives,
39:21
SPEAKER_00: not just,
39:22
SPEAKER_00: we want you to,
39:23
SPEAKER_00: we want you to make us better at getting things done.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: But like,
39:26
SPEAKER_00: if you have a software that you recommend or something like it,
39:31
SPEAKER_00: it will more than likely be implemented.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: So I,
39:34
SPEAKER_00: for me,
39:35
SPEAKER_00: I guess it's important to know,
39:36
it would be important to know as a candidate that you actually
39:39
have a shot at being
39:40
SPEAKER_00: successful here.
39:41
SPEAKER_00: Like we want you to
39:43
SPEAKER_00: to be the subject matter expert.
39:46
SPEAKER_00: We trust your guidance and your recommendations.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: And so I think that that's something that could be named as well.
39:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:54
SPEAKER_02: Put that in the key responsibilities, for sure.
39:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:00
SPEAKER_02: I would add that because that's another great filter point.
40:06
SPEAKER_02: It's going to attract a particular type of person,
40:09
SPEAKER_02: and I'm that person really,
40:11
who loves building things and loves figuring out how different
40:16
operational
40:16
processes and technology platforms can layer together
40:20
throughout an organization to
40:22
SPEAKER_02: help increase the capacity to do good work.
40:25
SPEAKER_02: So people who are wired like that, they're going to love that.
40:28
SPEAKER_02: And conversely,
40:29
SPEAKER_02: people who aren't really big on that,
40:32
SPEAKER_02: they're like,
40:33
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to deal with the tech.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: Like, geez, come on.
40:35
SPEAKER_02: You're going to filter them out, which is what you want.
40:37
Even if this building kind of thing isn't the forever solution
40:42
or the forever part
40:43
SPEAKER_02: of what their job is going to be a big part of it,
40:45
SPEAKER_02: probably for a year.
40:46
absolutely um you're right and you know there's some
40:50
organizations where you you
40:51
enter the org and you have to prove yourself you have to build
40:55
that trust they
40:56
don't just trust you right right out of the gates which is
40:59
weird to me because like
41:00
you're hiring that person for their expertise um this isn't
41:05
that kind of place and
41:06
SPEAKER_00: so to translate that i think would be really important that like
41:12
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that maybe that comes across the interview, who knows.
41:16
But I think it's important for candidates to know that that
41:19
trust is given from the
41:21
SPEAKER_00: moment you walk in the door.
41:25
SPEAKER_02: That's another thing that probably probably belongs in here.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: You're right.
41:28
SPEAKER_02: Like talking about talking about agency and autonomy.
41:35
That's another filter point that will probably be pretty
41:39
important because you're
41:41
going to attract people or at least build kind of bonus points
41:46
with people who are
41:47
SPEAKER_02: like,
41:48
if I have to sit through another micromanaging experience with
41:51
two directors,
41:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm just going to lose my nuggets and quit after a week.
41:57
SPEAKER_02: Conversely, people who are like, ooh, I need structure.
42:01
I need like a task list and I need 20 things to do and I can't
42:07
be the person coming
42:07
SPEAKER_02: up with that.
42:08
SPEAKER_02: People who are like that,
42:10
SPEAKER_02: they're going to read autonomy and agency and be like,
42:12
SPEAKER_02: maybe this isn't for me.
42:14
I'm not the best at coming up with the plan and then
42:16
implementing the plan.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
42:20
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
42:21
SPEAKER_00: Just making some notes,
42:22
SPEAKER_00: adding that to kind of the summary of the rule,
42:25
SPEAKER_00: the role,
42:25
SPEAKER_00: because I do think it's important.
42:27
SPEAKER_00: That's it really for the key responsibilities.
42:29
SPEAKER_00: An earlier version of this job posting,
42:34
SPEAKER_00: I had it by section,
42:35
SPEAKER_00: like departmental,
42:36
SPEAKER_00: you know,
42:37
SPEAKER_00: it just became too much.
42:38
SPEAKER_00: That's for an internal role profile.
42:41
SPEAKER_00: It does not need to be included in the job posting.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: I think this is the person gets the gist of it.
42:48
But yeah,
42:50
it would then be way beyond the four and a half pages that
42:54
we're already asked.
42:55
SPEAKER_02: Let's,
42:56
that's a good segue into talking about the reporting structure
42:59
section that you've
43:00
SPEAKER_02: got in the job ad.
43:00
SPEAKER_02: So let's, why don't you read that one out and then we'll talk about that.
43:04
Like,
43:04
I think I'm a big fan of having the reporting structure in the
43:08
job ad.
43:08
SPEAKER_02: I think it provides great context, but let's get into that a little bit.
43:12
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
43:13
SPEAKER_00: Reporting structure.
43:14
While this role reports to the VP people operations and in
43:18
brackets the person's
43:19
SPEAKER_00: name for structure,
43:21
SPEAKER_00: guidance and people leadership,
43:23
SPEAKER_00: it is not dedicated to supporting a single individual.
43:27
The executive assistant works in partnership with the full
43:31
leadership team and
43:32
collaborates closely with members across the organization to
43:36
support firm wide
43:37
SPEAKER_00: operations and coordination.
43:40
SPEAKER_00: Your manager's management style emphasizes,
43:43
SPEAKER_00: it's written better than that,
43:45
SPEAKER_00: management style emphasizes clarity,
43:47
SPEAKER_00: autonomy,
43:48
SPEAKER_00: and proactive communication.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: You will be encouraged to work independently,
43:52
SPEAKER_00: build relationships across the organization,
43:55
SPEAKER_00: and take initiative in moving work forward.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: If you are unsure about something,
43:59
SPEAKER_00: you are expected to ask questions early rather than make assumptions.
44:03
SPEAKER_00: Your manager values thoughtful problem solving,
44:06
empathy and flexibility within clear expectations and provides
44:09
consistent support
44:11
SPEAKER_00: and context so you can operate with confidence and ownership.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: So that's the reporting structure.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: That's long.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: I know that there's a lot there, but.
44:20
SPEAKER_00: We've talked about it before in other job postings.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: I want the reporting structure is important.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: You understand where it sits.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: Wondering from your perspective if that's enough, though.
44:30
SPEAKER_00: So it's saying you're reporting to this person.
44:34
SPEAKER_00: How far do you think it should go?
44:38
SPEAKER_00: You're putting this person who is part of the leadership team,
44:40
SPEAKER_00: the executive leadership team,
44:43
SPEAKER_00: that needs to be stated,
44:44
SPEAKER_00: do you think?
44:46
And then for me,
44:47
it's important for the person to understand the management
44:49
style.
44:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:52
if you go into it expecting it's going to be one thing and then
44:55
it's something else
44:57
or you have a good idea of whether or not you mesh with that
44:59
kind of so you need
45:01
clear guidance that might not happen but also understanding
45:05
that yes you have a
45:06
SPEAKER_00: certain level of autonomy but if you are in doubt
45:10
SPEAKER_00: please ask questions first, you know, that kind of situation.
45:14
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, curious of your thoughts on that section, reporting structure.
45:19
SPEAKER_02: I really like this,
45:19
SPEAKER_02: you know,
45:20
I'm on the same camp that I prefer to have the reporting
45:25
structure in job ads at
45:27
SPEAKER_02: the very least,
45:28
SPEAKER_02: like the title of the person you're reporting to in some sense of
45:31
And it really kind of boils down to getting a sense of the
45:35
overall authority that
45:36
SPEAKER_02: your direct manager or direct supervisor has within the organization.
45:40
That's the kind of meat of the issue that you want to
45:44
communicate in a job post.
45:45
SPEAKER_02: What I really liked about this, though,
45:47
was it talked about the management style and kind of
45:51
professional personality and
45:52
SPEAKER_02: values of the direct supervisor.
45:56
SPEAKER_02: That's not something that is in a job ad that I've ever read.
46:00
And we definitely haven't roasted a job ad that has something
46:05
like in this.
46:05
SPEAKER_02: I think it's a really valuable addition, though.
46:07
SPEAKER_02: Could it be shorter?
46:09
SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
46:09
maybe it maybe it could be a little bit shorter like that is
46:12
that is a lot but it's
46:13
commensurate to the importance I think of the the context
46:18
that's that's important
46:19
to a person making a decision about whether or not they're
46:22
going to apply for this
46:22
role and if they're if they'll be successful in this role
46:25
that's kind of the the
46:26
next leap because we don't write job ads to fill seats we write
46:30
job ads to fill
46:30
seats for a long period of time if we write job ads that fill a
46:33
seat for a week
46:36
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
46:37
And I know that there might be an argument against kind of
46:40
naming that person and
46:41
SPEAKER_00: being so specific to their style,
46:43
SPEAKER_00: because that could change,
46:44
SPEAKER_00: right?
46:45
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe in larger organizations or higher turnover, it could be, well,
46:50
two weeks ago that was going to be your manager but they've
46:52
since moved on or
46:54
whatever so i can see an argument against it and to say maybe
46:57
it's more about
46:58
overall the organization how things are managed it's less tied
47:02
to like specific
47:05
specificity oh my gosh of uh the individual itself right that
47:10
doesn't really make
47:12
SPEAKER_00: it
47:13
SPEAKER_00: long lasting.
47:14
SPEAKER_00: So I understand that and curious to hear your thoughts on that as well.
47:18
In this situation,
47:19
that's not going to be the case,
47:20
but I know that to be true.
47:22
SPEAKER_02: This also surfaces another thing that can be an important filter point.
47:30
for for job ads uh is is the person that you're looking for a
47:36
big organization
47:37
person or a small organization person and i've i've often
47:42
thought about my own
47:43
career and the the nature of work that um that i found the most
47:47
fulfilling and what
47:48
i figured out a long time ago is that i'm not a cog on a
47:51
corporate machine and if
47:52
SPEAKER_02: i'm in those environments like
47:54
SPEAKER_02: I turned to mush pretty quick.
47:56
SPEAKER_02: And there are tons of people like that.
47:57
SPEAKER_02: But on the other side of it,
47:59
there are people who really kind of need the structure and the
48:03
rigidity provided by
48:05
SPEAKER_02: large organizations.
48:06
So perhaps there's a filter point here that you can add that
48:09
really kind of
48:11
SPEAKER_02: connects the dots on this is a small organization.
48:14
And this is why we're talking about the management style in the
48:18
context of that
48:19
SPEAKER_02: small organization.
48:20
Maybe that's a framing point that would really kind of enhance
48:23
this a little bit.
48:26
SPEAKER_00: I'm just making some notes here.
48:29
SPEAKER_00: It's a good point.
48:30
SPEAKER_00: And I'm the same way.
48:31
SPEAKER_00: Like,
48:31
SPEAKER_00: I feel like in a large organization,
48:33
SPEAKER_00: especially a corporate environment,
48:35
SPEAKER_00: I lose so much of myself.
48:37
SPEAKER_00: I feel like I just don't even know who I am.
48:40
It irks me when companies say you can bring your whole self to
48:43
work because I never
48:44
SPEAKER_00: believe that that's true.
48:45
SPEAKER_00: But I think it's true to a certain extent.
48:48
And in a smaller organization,
48:50
I absolutely feel like I can be more of myself.
48:55
than in a large uh corporation absolutely absolutely and it's
48:59
true like we're you
49:01
can see if you're posting a job on linkedin or something like
49:04
that it'll say um
49:05
like employee count or whatever some some kind of language like
49:08
that but like in a
49:10
general job posting if you're posting on indeed or some other
49:13
places there's
49:14
sometimes there's not a place to put employee headcount so it's
49:17
hard to gauge is
49:18
this a massive company uh or is this a small company and that
49:22
makes a huge
49:23
SPEAKER_00: difference um
49:25
SPEAKER_00: So I appreciate that.
49:26
SPEAKER_00: If there's no space to put it,
49:28
SPEAKER_00: then maybe like in the automated fields,
49:33
SPEAKER_00: then maybe adding it to the job description is a good idea.
49:36
Yeah,
49:38
it could even go to that into that employer branding section,
49:41
right?
49:41
SPEAKER_02: Like the about the company part.
49:43
You could even add just like a small statement being like this
49:46
is a small team,
49:47
SPEAKER_02: small organization operates very,
49:50
SPEAKER_02: very closely knit,
49:51
SPEAKER_02: like something like that.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, probably do what you need.
49:59
SPEAKER_02: When you're done taking your note there,
50:00
SPEAKER_02: let's move on to the next section,
50:02
SPEAKER_02: the location and work environment section.
50:04
SPEAKER_02: Talk about that a little bit.
50:05
SPEAKER_02: It's short, and then we'll get into the what we're looking for section.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes, let's do it.
50:11
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so location and work environment, fully remote, Canada-based role.
50:16
The company operates as a distributed team with regular virtual
50:19
collaboration.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: Occasional in-person gatherings take place throughout the year.
50:23
SPEAKER_00: You must be able to travel between Canada and the United States.
50:28
SPEAKER_02: Bit of a question mark right now, but okay.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:34
SPEAKER_00: So I feel like that's enough information, but maybe it's not.
50:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:40
SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's anything missing here.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's anything missing.
50:42
SPEAKER_02: Like if there are, like we're talking about a remote role.
50:46
SPEAKER_02: It's fully remote.
50:47
SPEAKER_02: There's no expectation that you'll be in an office,
50:50
but it might be if there is some sort of framework where the
50:54
team does come
50:55
SPEAKER_02: together at specific points of the year,
50:58
like are there quarterly retreats or is there an AGM that
51:02
everybody attends?
51:03
or something like that it might be worthwhile putting that in
51:06
here because even
51:07
SPEAKER_02: with remote roles like there are sometimes physical touch points and just
51:11
acknowledging that that um that togetherness being in the same
51:15
room every once in a
51:16
while is a part of the experience that can be useful for folks
51:19
yeah and what what
51:20
those yeah what those touch points look like um so next we have
51:28
what we're looking
51:29
SPEAKER_00: for
51:31
SPEAKER_00: We recognize that strong candidates may come from different backgrounds.
51:34
SPEAKER_00: If your experience aligns closely with the responsibilities of this role,
51:38
SPEAKER_00: we encourage you to apply.
51:40
We strongly encourage applications from Indigenous
51:42
professionals and value lived
51:44
SPEAKER_00: experience alongside professional expertise.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: Experience working within Indigenous organizations,
51:50
SPEAKER_00: communities,
51:51
SPEAKER_00: or initiatives is considered a strong asset.
51:54
SPEAKER_00: experience supporting senior leaders in venture capital,
51:58
SPEAKER_00: private equity,
51:58
SPEAKER_00: finance,
51:59
SPEAKER_00: or professional services environment,
52:01
strong organizational judgment and comfort handling
52:04
confidential information,
52:06
SPEAKER_00: experience managing calendars,
52:08
SPEAKER_00: travel logistics,
52:09
SPEAKER_00: and executive priorities,
52:10
SPEAKER_00: familiarity with CRM systems,
52:13
SPEAKER_00: project management tools,
52:14
SPEAKER_00: and collaborative platforms such as Google Workspace,
52:18
Excellent written communication and ability to synthesize
52:21
information clearly.
52:23
Ability to work independently in a remote environment while
52:26
staying highly collaborative.
52:30
SPEAKER_02: That was pretty good too.
52:33
Wondering on the tools,
52:34
like actually listing out some of the tools because we don't.
52:38
The reason why I didn't is because I.
52:41
I find job posting,
52:44
say,
52:44
for example,
52:45
in HR,
52:46
must have experience working with,
52:48
um,
52:49
like bamboo HR or success or ADP workforce now.
52:54
And it,
52:54
to me,
52:55
it's like,
52:56
I,
52:56
even if I haven't,
52:58
I can learn that shit in 15 minutes.
53:01
SPEAKER_00: So to me, it doesn't matter.
53:04
um what the actual tools are and also because tools change like
53:08
we're migrating
53:09
from uh office 365 to google phenomenal i'm very excited about
53:15
that um but so it
53:17
doesn't matter those things change it's not a big deal i feel
53:20
like anyone can learn
53:22
SPEAKER_00: any tool at this point
53:24
SPEAKER_02: That has always, that's a great point to bring up.
53:27
SPEAKER_02: This part of the kind of labor market,
53:32
SPEAKER_02: the hiring practices or whatever has always really pissed me off.
53:37
SPEAKER_02: It bothered me because tools can be learned.
53:41
so if you're if you're saying that and there are some
53:45
exceptions like there are
53:46
some um very specialized tools and software packages that
53:51
require significant
53:53
training and that's a part of the um that's a part of the the
53:57
job you know like um
53:58
particularly in um in aerospace and machining like i wouldn't
54:02
hire somebody to
54:03
SPEAKER_02: operate a cnc rig and be like no experience necessary
54:07
You have to have experience operating a CNC rig and the design
54:10
software behind it.
54:11
SPEAKER_02: But general productivity,
54:13
SPEAKER_02: stuff like this,
54:14
it really bugs me when companies say you must have experience
54:18
with Adobe X or
54:20
SPEAKER_02: Google Y or Microsoft Z because those things can be learned.
54:25
SPEAKER_02: And when you're saying you must have experience,
54:29
the other side of that coin is you're saying we're not willing
54:32
to invest in your
54:33
development and give you the time and the resources to learn
54:37
our software.
54:39
And fundamentally,
54:40
fundamentally,
54:40
from a cultural standpoint,
54:42
that's complete shit.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: One of the other things, too, that I didn't put is, you know,
54:54
A five plus years of experience or blah,
54:56
blah,
54:56
blah,
54:56
blah,
54:57
blah,
54:58
because who cares?
54:59
SPEAKER_00: Who cares?
55:00
SPEAKER_00: And I,
55:01
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:01
I worked at a company and I was there for four years and
55:05
probably got 20 years of
55:06
SPEAKER_00: experience in those four years.
55:08
SPEAKER_00: Like it really me.
55:11
SPEAKER_00: It does not matter.
55:12
SPEAKER_00: And so I just wanted I didn't want anyone to think,
55:14
SPEAKER_00: oh,
55:14
SPEAKER_00: I don't have,
55:15
SPEAKER_00: you know,
55:15
SPEAKER_00: two years in this sector or whatever.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
55:18
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
55:19
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: There's no educational requirement either,
55:24
SPEAKER_00: because,
55:24
SPEAKER_00: again,
55:25
when when we look at the candidates that we would like to see
55:29
for this role,
55:31
systemically there are a lot systemically and historically
55:35
there have been a lot of
55:36
barriers um for this this group uh of people marginalized
55:41
communities always have
55:43
more barriers and so if somebody doesn't matter to me if
55:47
somebody went to school
55:47
doesn't even matter to me if someone went to high school i i
55:51
frankly do not care um
55:54
SPEAKER_00: there's so much more to people and there's so many other ways
55:58
SPEAKER_00: to gain experience and so that's why life experience is also taken into
56:02
consideration here we're not looking at like a regulatory role
56:05
or anything like
56:06
that either um so i wanted to make it obvious without making it
56:11
explicit um
56:13
SPEAKER_00: hopefully that's captured there
56:16
SPEAKER_02: You might actually want to make that explicit.
56:18
SPEAKER_02: You think so?
56:20
SPEAKER_02: With that context that you've given,
56:22
SPEAKER_02: I would say that maybe you do want to make that explicit,
56:25
that you're looking for a certain type of person with a certain
56:30
set of background
56:31
SPEAKER_02: and skills.
56:33
but you don't have an educational or an experiential
56:37
requirement because of A,
56:38
SPEAKER_02: B,
56:39
SPEAKER_02: and C.
56:39
That can strengthen both your employer brand and really appeal
56:44
to some candidates
56:45
SPEAKER_02: who might fit that mold,
56:46
SPEAKER_02: but would otherwise perhaps
56:49
SPEAKER_02: ignore this job ad because they assume that there's an educational or an
56:54
experiential requirement and you just forgot to list it because
56:57
every company will
56:58
SPEAKER_02: use that proxy for capability,
57:02
SPEAKER_02: right?
57:02
SPEAKER_02: And at the end of the day, that's really what we're talking about.
57:04
SPEAKER_02: Like anytime in any job,
57:06
that a company ever lists a number of years of experience as a
57:11
requirement or a
57:13
particular type of education as a requirement they're really
57:17
using that as a proxy
57:19
as a crutch for evaluating the capabilities of the person
57:22
they're really just kind
57:23
of outsourcing that to a university or a college or another
57:28
company and they're
57:29
saying well you've done this for five years and you have a
57:31
degree from x so you
57:32
SPEAKER_02: must be able to do it here like
57:34
SPEAKER_02: And it is sound logic, but it's exclusionary and it's unnecessary.
57:37
And some of the best people don't have those blends that you're
57:40
looking for because
57:41
SPEAKER_02: you didn't think through what you actually need for the role.
57:45
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely agree.
57:47
SPEAKER_00: So no, you're right.
57:48
I think naming it explicitly again without turning it into a
57:52
novel is going to be,
57:55
SPEAKER_00: is fundamental.
57:55
SPEAKER_00: It is part of the employer branding too.
57:57
SPEAKER_00: And it's also part of like me in my role as,
58:01
um what i would like to um just do in this world right is is
58:09
lead by example in
58:10
that sense and so without naming explicitly um it's it's less
58:15
obvious it's less
58:16
SPEAKER_00: likely to happen so yeah i agree um
58:18
SPEAKER_02: There is a bit of a flip side risk to that, though.
58:21
It's great that we're seeing in this or not including those
58:27
kind of proxies.
58:28
SPEAKER_02: Like, I think that that's good.
58:29
SPEAKER_02: But the flip side risk, again, is volume of applications.
58:32
SPEAKER_02: And also,
58:33
how are you going to assess the capabilities of the person
58:38
relative or the
58:39
SPEAKER_02: applicant relative to what you need when they come in?
58:42
That's something that if you want to take this approach and
58:45
open it up,
58:45
which is great,
58:46
you also need to think about how you're going to assess those
58:49
people and make sure
58:50
that they can do the job that could be a bit of a challenge but
58:53
if you crack that
58:54
SPEAKER_02: code
58:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's going to work.
58:58
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that you bring that up because,
58:59
SPEAKER_00: you know,
59:00
SPEAKER_00: we first met when we collaborated on something about hiring,
59:05
SPEAKER_00: like hiring for humans and our different perspectives on hiring.
59:08
SPEAKER_00: And one of the things that I'd mentioned was like,
59:10
SPEAKER_00: if you ask generic questions,
59:11
SPEAKER_00: you're going to get generic answers.
59:13
SPEAKER_00: And so to me, that really comes into play when we ask questions.
59:17
situ situational questions in the interview that are based on
59:21
real either past
59:23
problems or situations in the organization or current you know
59:28
a real example of
59:31
this this is what's happening blah blah blah you need to get
59:34
this information this
59:35
person isn't responding what do you do uh those kinds of
59:41
questions I think will
59:42
SPEAKER_00: help to determine whether or not
59:45
uh someone is right for the role absolutely um so yeah it's
59:50
it's a code to crack
59:51
but it's fun and it's interesting and um i think it it makes a
59:56
huge difference stop
59:57
asking generic questions get to the point ask some questions
1:00:00
you're going to deal
1:00:01
SPEAKER_00: with at your organization and understand um their thought process
1:00:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
1:00:08
SPEAKER_02: the more in general,
1:00:09
the more just talking about being less general and more
1:00:11
specific in general folks
1:00:13
SPEAKER_02: at home,
1:00:14
SPEAKER_02: like the more that you can create a scenario which puts the candidate,
1:00:19
like your shortlist of candidates into the actual operating
1:00:23
environment and gives
1:00:24
SPEAKER_02: them the context for what the job they'll be doing is like,
1:00:27
the higher the probability that you're going to have a
1:00:30
successful candidate for a
1:00:32
SPEAKER_02: longer period of time.
1:00:33
you know so it's it's a lot more extra work up front to build
1:00:37
this stuff into your
1:00:38
SPEAKER_02: hiring process but it pays dividends and if you think about the costs of
1:00:42
recruitment and the cost of training and you very simply put
1:00:45
together a spreadsheet
1:00:46
that says okay if i hired this many people this is the cost per
1:00:49
head uh over the
1:00:51
SPEAKER_02: course of a year it's this number
1:00:52
SPEAKER_02: What if I can do better?
1:00:54
SPEAKER_02: What if I can reduce turnover by 5%?
1:00:56
SPEAKER_02: What's the cost benefit there?
1:00:58
Like you can start to put a business case to this extra
1:01:00
investment if you really
1:01:01
SPEAKER_02: put your mind to it.
1:01:02
And that's how you kind of build support inside an organization
1:01:06
of people who
1:01:06
SPEAKER_02: really care about the numbers on the spreadsheet.
1:01:08
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:01:10
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:01:11
SPEAKER_00: Speaking of numbers, compensation, shall we?
1:01:13
SPEAKER_00: Compensation and benefits?
1:01:15
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, let's talk about compensation.
1:01:16
It's not fair for me to guess because I've already read what
1:01:20
this post is offering,
1:01:21
SPEAKER_02: but let's get into that section.
1:01:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:01:23
So what's mentioned here is compensation is location dependent
1:01:26
within Canada and
1:01:27
aligned with senior executive assistant roles in venture and
1:01:30
private capital
1:01:31
SPEAKER_00: environments.
1:01:31
SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to name the thought process behind the salary range,
1:01:38
SPEAKER_00: because I think it's important,
1:01:39
SPEAKER_00: like you can just throw out a range,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: but like,
1:01:41
SPEAKER_00: but why,
1:01:42
SPEAKER_00: why is it that range?
1:01:43
Well,
1:01:43
because it's aligned with similar roles in similar sectors and
1:01:49
it will,
1:01:51
the range
1:01:53
SPEAKER_00: is such because it depends on where this person is located.
1:01:56
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious about your thoughts on that too.
1:02:00
I like a location agnostic salary band,
1:02:03
but at the same time...
1:02:05
It's not realistic.
1:02:07
It's not realistic and I don't have the authority to do that
1:02:10
for this job.
1:02:12
SPEAKER_00: Not allowed.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: So the range for this job is 80 to 105 Canadian dollars.
1:02:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
1:02:24
I like the location dependency part that we're talking about
1:02:27
here because you're
1:02:29
SPEAKER_02: basically telling a candidate like,
1:02:31
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:02:31
if you live in Vancouver or you live in Toronto or you live in
1:02:35
Montreal is kind of
1:02:36
SPEAKER_02: affordable in the larger cities relative to the others.
1:02:39
But if you live in an urban environment where your living costs
1:02:43
are higher,
1:02:43
SPEAKER_02: like that's going to be factored into your offer.
1:02:45
SPEAKER_02: I quite like that.
1:02:46
SPEAKER_02: It's fair.
1:02:48
SPEAKER_02: There are limits to what you can do, obviously, with that.
1:02:51
SPEAKER_02: But at least this gives a sense of what's going into that calculation.
1:02:55
And you also don't say in here that no negotiation,
1:02:59
you get what you get,
1:03:00
which is nice.
1:03:02
SPEAKER_02: Because salary and benefits,
1:03:04
it should be a conversation when you're thinking about giving
1:03:07
someone an offer or
1:03:08
SPEAKER_02: onboarding them.
1:03:09
To say this is what you get if you don't like it,
1:03:12
like pound of sand,
1:03:13
that's kind of dumb.
1:03:15
SPEAKER_00: And again,
1:03:16
SPEAKER_00: we understand why some companies do that,
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: because they feel like some people may not have the negotiations.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_00: I totally understand that.
1:03:21
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious, and maybe this isn't the conversation.
1:03:26
SPEAKER_00: This isn't the day to have that conversation.
1:03:28
SPEAKER_00: But if you hire someone who lives in Toronto,
1:03:31
SPEAKER_00: and you pay them more because of that,
1:03:33
SPEAKER_00: and then they move to a like dirt cheap,
1:03:35
SPEAKER_00: small town,
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: nowhere,
1:03:38
SPEAKER_00: what do you do?
1:03:42
SPEAKER_02: I don't think that there's a whole heck of a lot that you can do.
1:03:45
There are,
1:03:45
to my knowledge,
1:03:46
there are avenues where you can try and claw back
1:03:58
uh and usually usually that unfolds in the form of like a
1:04:02
location dependency in
1:04:03
the contract like you must work in this geographic area and if
1:04:08
you move you must
1:04:09
seek permission um to move like to relocate and still have your
1:04:13
job and as a part
1:04:14
of that process there's usually a renegotiation i've seen this
1:04:17
with the big banks
1:04:18
sometimes where they fight really really hard if you move to a
1:04:21
cheaper location to
1:04:22
SPEAKER_02: pay you less um
1:04:26
SPEAKER_02: This is a tough issue because as like someone working,
1:04:31
SPEAKER_02: if I choose to move to a different area,
1:04:32
SPEAKER_02: I don't want to be making like 30% less.
1:04:35
But the flip side of that is the organization factored in some
1:04:40
of that stuff and
1:04:41
SPEAKER_02: agreed to pay you more to like fund your life.
1:04:46
SPEAKER_02: Is it fair for them to then kind of give you a raise based on you moving?
1:04:52
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:04:53
SPEAKER_02: I can see both sides of that coin.
1:04:56
SPEAKER_02: But it's pretty uncommon for that to happen and be like,
1:05:01
SPEAKER_02: hey,
1:05:02
SPEAKER_02: I'm moving from Toronto to Kitchener,
1:05:03
SPEAKER_02: so I'm going to make like 40% less.
1:05:05
SPEAKER_02: That doesn't happen.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_02: A company can't just say, okay, you're making less.
1:05:09
SPEAKER_02: It doesn't work that way.
1:05:10
SPEAKER_00: I agree.
1:05:11
SPEAKER_00: I really like what you said about how you're hiring someone.
1:05:15
SPEAKER_00: Part of what you take into consideration is where they are located,
1:05:19
SPEAKER_00: whether candidates realize this or not.
1:05:22
SPEAKER_00: And so I think a good way around it is,
1:05:24
SPEAKER_00: like you said,
1:05:25
just have something in the employment agreement that talks
1:05:27
about if you move,
1:05:30
SPEAKER_00: the company needs a heads up.
1:05:32
SPEAKER_00: And it can lead to further discussion.
1:05:34
And it's also part of the reason why I put location dependent
1:05:39
compensation is
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: location dependent.
1:05:42
SPEAKER_00: So that's the comp.
1:05:44
SPEAKER_00: Then we go into benefits and it's categorized.
1:05:47
And,
1:05:48
you know,
1:05:48
I went into great detail because I always talk about going into
1:05:51
detail.
1:05:52
SPEAKER_00: And maybe this is too much information, so let's see.
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: Health and wellness,
1:05:57
SPEAKER_00: extended health benefits,
1:05:59
including employee assistance program or EAP for you and your
1:06:02
dependents through
1:06:03
SPEAKER_00: group source.
1:06:06
SPEAKER_00: $70 per month fitness allowance.
1:06:08
SPEAKER_00: So that would be like gym memberships or whatever.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_00: $1,500 per year wellness allowance.
1:06:15
time off and leave three weeks of paid vacation to start with
1:06:18
additional vacation
1:06:19
provided as tenure grows 15 paid sick days per year eight paid
1:06:24
personal days per
1:06:25
calendar year paid time off during um annual holiday closure so
1:06:32
that's like you
1:06:34
SPEAKER_00: know christmas all that time yeah um depending on
1:06:39
how those dates fall it could be a week it could be even i
1:06:42
think last year it was
1:06:43
two weeks and that's paid time off paid bereavement leave paid
1:06:47
maternity and
1:06:48
SPEAKER_00: parental leave
1:06:50
SPEAKER_00: We're still going on benefits here.
1:06:52
I'm just going to go through them and then we can kind of deep
1:06:54
dive a little bit.
1:06:55
SPEAKER_00: Flexible statutory holidays.
1:06:57
SPEAKER_00: So statutory holidays vary across regions and traditions.
1:07:01
SPEAKER_00: At this company,
1:07:02
employees have the option to substitute statutory holidays for
1:07:05
the days that hold
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: greater personal,
1:07:07
SPEAKER_00: cultural,
1:07:07
SPEAKER_00: or faith-based significance.
1:07:10
SPEAKER_00: And then professional growth and work environment,
1:07:12
SPEAKER_00: up to $2,500 per year for professional development,
1:07:16
SPEAKER_00: up to $250 per month reimbursement for a coworking or hot desk space,
1:07:22
SPEAKER_00: one-time $1,500 home office equipment allowance,
1:07:26
and opportunity to contribute to an Indigenous-led investment
1:07:29
platform with growing
1:07:30
SPEAKER_00: national and international reach.
1:07:32
SPEAKER_00: So that is under the section of compensation and benefits.
1:07:38
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I particularly like, um, the flexible stat holidays thing.
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: Um,
1:07:44
SPEAKER_02: we've talked a little bit,
1:07:46
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:07:46
SPEAKER_02: in some episodes in the past about,
1:07:49
SPEAKER_02: um,
1:07:49
SPEAKER_02: inadvertently creating,
1:07:51
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:07:54
minor discontent through targeting a benefit to a very narrow
1:07:59
specific group.
1:08:00
And if you're not in that narrow specific group and you can't
1:08:02
take advantage of
1:08:03
SPEAKER_02: that benefit,
1:08:05
SPEAKER_02: then it can lead to,
1:08:06
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:08:07
SPEAKER_02: kind of some,
1:08:08
SPEAKER_02: some negativity sometimes.
1:08:11
SPEAKER_02: And that it's,
1:08:12
SPEAKER_02: it's really,
1:08:12
SPEAKER_02: I hadn't thought about holidays through that framework that lens before,
1:08:17
SPEAKER_02: but it's kind of true.
1:08:18
SPEAKER_02: Like,
1:08:19
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:08:19
SPEAKER_02: every company gives people the statutory holidays that are a part of,
1:08:24
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:08:24
SPEAKER_02: kind of working in Canada or the US or Europe where we are.
1:08:27
SPEAKER_02: That's a part of the thing.
1:08:29
SPEAKER_02: But there are other holidays that are important to people.
1:08:34
and it's like if you if you're if you're someone who is um you
1:08:38
know not overly
1:08:39
religious and you don't celebrate like you don't celebrate like
1:08:42
ascension day or
1:08:43
whatever it is in march or april i don't know like i'm not at
1:08:46
all religious i'm
1:08:48
practically an atheist if you if you don't if you don't care
1:08:52
about that stuff um or
1:08:54
you do care about that stuff but you're getting like christmas
1:08:56
day off instead it's
1:08:57
SPEAKER_02: like
1:08:58
well what the heck like a day off day off sure but the ability
1:09:01
to say like all
1:09:02
right instead of this other day that i would normally get off i
1:09:06
will take this day
1:09:07
off that truly matters to me and will kind of enhance my
1:09:11
experience with family and
1:09:13
friends in my community um that's that's a great perk like
1:09:16
that's that could be a
1:09:17
really important perk and it's also it's non-targeted it's
1:09:20
basically saying stuff
1:09:21
SPEAKER_02: that matters to you um you can swap it out
1:09:24
SPEAKER_02: Cool.
1:09:24
SPEAKER_02: I think that's great.
1:09:25
SPEAKER_02: I think more companies should do that.
1:09:26
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:09:28
SPEAKER_00: It is,
1:09:28
SPEAKER_00: and it comes from a place of things like,
1:09:30
SPEAKER_00: say,
1:09:30
SPEAKER_00: for example,
1:09:31
SPEAKER_00: in an Indigenous-led organization,
1:09:32
SPEAKER_00: Canada Day isn't necessarily celebrated.
1:09:37
SPEAKER_00: And so it's, yeah, giving that power back to the individuals to decide.
1:09:44
SPEAKER_00: Where it can go sideways, though, which we should talk about, is if
1:09:49
you know some people practice the religion of the flying
1:09:53
spaghetti monster and
1:09:54
there is a flying spaghetti monster day right like where where
1:09:58
does it end and are
1:10:01
you asking people for any kind of and the answer is no but any
1:10:05
kind of like
1:10:05
verification of like oh I sell all of a sudden I celebrate all
1:10:10
of these holidays
1:10:11
SPEAKER_00: too right like it's
1:10:13
it can get out of control um it doesn't this is i'm talking
1:10:17
about worst case
1:10:18
SPEAKER_00: scenario but it's just something to be mindful of for those who might be
1:10:21
considering something like this um is that you know it's it's
1:10:25
an honor system it's
1:10:27
trust-based it's relational and um it can work there will
1:10:31
always be folks who try
1:10:34
to take advantage of things like that um but you just have to
1:10:39
give people the
1:10:39
SPEAKER_00: benefit of the doubt and maybe cross that bridge when you get to it
1:10:44
i i have absolutely no doubt that for the past like 10 or 15
1:10:47
seconds you've been
1:10:48
saying very very intelligent things but in my brain i just have
1:10:51
a picture of a dude
1:10:53
with a colander on their head and spaghetti falling at the side
1:10:56
the whole concept
1:10:57
of the flying spaghetti monster like as an actual religion just
1:11:02
is wild to me it
1:11:03
SPEAKER_02: makes me laugh so much
1:11:05
SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
1:11:06
SPEAKER_00: When we talked about this at work,
1:11:07
SPEAKER_00: actually,
1:11:08
SPEAKER_00: the leadership team meeting,
1:11:10
somebody mentioned that somebody had joked to them that they
1:11:14
were a Pastafarian,
1:11:16
SPEAKER_00: Pastafarian,
1:11:17
SPEAKER_00: they celebrate Pasta,
1:11:19
SPEAKER_00: and then
1:11:21
yeah the line that it goes down when does it stop um yeah it's
1:11:29
just it's just
1:11:29
interesting my mind is going to this other conversation that
1:11:32
was hilarious but i
1:11:32
won't bore everyone about the details um but yeah i think it is
1:11:35
i think it is nice
1:11:36
i think it's respectful not everyone celebrates the same
1:11:38
holidays but yet for some
1:11:40
reason those are deemed the most important ones so swapping out
1:11:44
if you want to work
1:11:45
SPEAKER_00: on canada day because you don't want to give it
1:11:48
SPEAKER_00: any any energy then or participate in like Canada Day celebrations,
1:11:54
SPEAKER_00: then work Canada Day and then take an alternative day off.
1:11:57
SPEAKER_00: There's a whole policy around it, though, guardrails.
1:12:01
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, it is it is a nice to have for sure.
1:12:04
SPEAKER_02: The structure of this section is good.
1:12:07
SPEAKER_02: It's very simple.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_02: It's to the point.
1:12:08
SPEAKER_02: It's A, B, C, D, E. This is the number of things you get here.
1:12:12
SPEAKER_02: This is that.
1:12:12
SPEAKER_02: This is that.
1:12:13
SPEAKER_02: That was really well written.
1:12:14
SPEAKER_02: In a section like this, that's all you need.
1:12:16
You don't need to overcomplicate the health and wellness time
1:12:21
off and leave section
1:12:22
SPEAKER_02: of your job ad.
1:12:23
um you just need to like list it out you've done that here
1:12:25
that's good um 15 paid
1:12:27
sick days per calendar year i like that you listed out the
1:12:30
number of paid sick days
1:12:31
that people uh get um you know some organizations have
1:12:35
unlimited sick days which i
1:12:37
personally like better but there is kind of a an inherent risk
1:12:41
there that that will
1:12:42
be abused um it's funny to talk uh about sick days with people
1:12:48
in the netherlands
1:12:49
SPEAKER_02: in particular
1:12:50
because their their legislation around sick days is that
1:12:54
employers must um it's
1:12:55
basically if you get sick you get sick and employers must
1:12:58
continue to pay your
1:12:59
salary for up to two years so like there's there's no concept
1:13:04
of like you get x
1:13:05
number of sick days per year and when you talk to um to dutch
1:13:08
folks about this and
1:13:09
SPEAKER_02: bring this up they're invariably usually like
1:13:13
what are you talking about when you're sick you don't work when
1:13:16
you're not sick you
1:13:16
do work like why are you complicating this is that is that two
1:13:21
years consecutively
1:13:23
SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
1:13:23
SPEAKER_02: so you can be,
1:13:24
SPEAKER_02: and then that,
1:13:26
SPEAKER_02: it sounds kind of crazy from our perspective here in Canada and the US,
1:13:30
SPEAKER_02: because that's like,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:13:31
SPEAKER_02: your thoughts immediately go to like,
1:13:33
SPEAKER_02: oh my goodness,
1:13:34
SPEAKER_02: that is such a financial liability,
1:13:36
SPEAKER_02: that's crazy.
1:13:37
But that means that there is no short-term and long-term
1:13:42
disability insurance in
1:13:43
SPEAKER_02: the Netherlands.
1:13:44
So those costs are not borne by the organization at all,
1:13:47
because they don't exist.
1:13:49
SPEAKER_02: They just, they don't.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_02: So I don't know what the numbers kind of play out as,
1:13:55
but I would guess that that like legal requirement is not as
1:13:59
costly to companies as
1:14:00
we might just assume kind of off the top of our head here
1:14:04
because we're used to
1:14:05
SPEAKER_02: something different.
1:14:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:14:07
SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting to me.
1:14:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:14:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean,
1:14:10
SPEAKER_00: 15 to me,
1:14:11
SPEAKER_00: 15 listing the numbers,
1:14:13
SPEAKER_00: it's high to me compared to what some other organizations,
1:14:17
they'll do like the minimum ESA standard requirement and not do
1:14:23
anything more than
1:14:23
SPEAKER_00: that.
1:14:24
When you look at this,
1:14:26
the paid time off,
1:14:27
so we're saying eight personal days,
1:14:31
um you're getting the annual closure you're getting 15 sick
1:14:34
days three weeks of
1:14:35
vacation it's a lot and what tends to happen in these
1:14:39
situations is that you find
1:14:41
people are using more of their alternative paid time off so
1:14:45
their sick days their
1:14:46
personal days and everything and not tapping into their
1:14:48
vacation as much and what
1:14:50
SPEAKER_00: that leaves you at the end of the year with is a lot of liability
1:14:54
So there's,
1:14:56
from a company's perspective,
1:14:57
there's a fine line between being really generous.
1:15:00
SPEAKER_00: You want to be generous.
1:15:01
SPEAKER_00: You want to give a lot of PTO.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
1:15:04
SPEAKER_00: But that comes with a liability.
1:15:06
SPEAKER_00: And so you have to balance that.
1:15:09
SPEAKER_00: You have to, yeah.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_02: That brings up a question for me.
1:15:13
SPEAKER_02: I don't think in your job description you talk about rollovers.
1:15:18
SPEAKER_02: Is there a rollover policy?
1:15:19
Because that's a common kind of way that companies use to limit
1:15:24
their financial liability.
1:15:25
They kind of make it explicitly clear in their contracts that
1:15:29
any unused time at
1:15:30
SPEAKER_02: the end of a calendar year is forfeit.
1:15:33
SPEAKER_02: Like,
1:15:33
SPEAKER_02: is that just something that you do,
1:15:35
but it wasn't mentioned here or is that not at all and you can
1:15:39
rollover forever?
1:15:40
SPEAKER_00: There is rollover.
1:15:41
SPEAKER_00: There is rollover.
1:15:45
SPEAKER_00: my question is,
1:15:46
SPEAKER_00: is that the kind of,
1:15:47
are we getting into the nitty gritty of that in a job posting
1:15:51
or is that probably
1:15:52
SPEAKER_00: not right?
1:15:53
SPEAKER_00: Is that handbook or policy?
1:15:54
SPEAKER_00: This is,
1:15:55
SPEAKER_00: this is my question just throughout all of our,
1:15:57
SPEAKER_00: all of our episodes is like when we ask for more information,
1:16:01
is it more information for the sake of attracting someone to
1:16:05
the position and
1:16:06
SPEAKER_00: giving them like an informed decision or is it information that should be
1:16:12
that is like that is pertinent only to the successful candidate
1:16:16
right and i don't
1:16:17
know i don't know the answer to that i don't know the answer to
1:16:19
that i've never
1:16:20
seen maybe i have a job posting that mentions you know vacation
1:16:24
with x amount of
1:16:25
rollover because there's also rollover for the pro d
1:16:27
professional development
1:16:29
it says up to $500 per year but we also allow a rollover so
1:16:35
that people can kind of
1:16:36
if maybe they it wasn't a year for them to do anything Pro-D
1:16:39
wise they can roll
1:16:40
over a certain amount to the next year but at some point you
1:16:43
have to cap that too
1:16:44
does that need to be mentioned I have no idea does it matter to
1:16:48
a candidate I think
1:16:50
knowing that there even is Pro-D is the most important part to
1:16:55
a candidate but
1:16:55
SPEAKER_00: again I don't know
1:16:57
John Kane- yeah the draw is certainly that it exists and
1:17:00
putting a number to it is
1:17:02
SPEAKER_02: also important here,
1:17:03
SPEAKER_02: you know I think probably you're right,
1:17:04
SPEAKER_02: like you don't need to mention rollovers at this stage.
1:17:09
SPEAKER_02: John Kane- Like.
1:17:11
Maybe it would be useful to have like a blanket statement that
1:17:14
some things can be rolled over.
1:17:16
SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
1:17:17
SPEAKER_02: Um, how much do people care about that?
1:17:19
Like at this stage,
1:17:20
probably not a whole lot because it's not widely talked about.
1:17:23
SPEAKER_02: Like I have seen,
1:17:24
SPEAKER_02: um,
1:17:25
SPEAKER_02: the vacation rollover policy,
1:17:27
SPEAKER_02: uh,
1:17:28
SPEAKER_02: referenced the odd time in a job ad,
1:17:32
SPEAKER_02: but it's certainly not like everything everywhere.
1:17:36
SPEAKER_02: It's not like a mainstream thing.
1:17:38
SPEAKER_02: So maybe it doesn't matter.
1:17:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that so that was it for comp and benefits.
1:17:45
SPEAKER_00: That was the full section.
1:17:46
SPEAKER_00: OK,
1:17:49
let's let's talk about the last section that we've got in here
1:17:52
that we haven't
1:17:52
SPEAKER_02: covered yet is we didn't cover accommodations.
1:17:57
SPEAKER_02: I think we talked a little bit about accommodations,
1:17:59
SPEAKER_02: like you've got an accommodation statement in here,
1:18:01
SPEAKER_02: which is which is good.
1:18:03
SPEAKER_02: And I would assume that
1:18:05
i would assume that because it's you like it actually does mean
1:18:07
something it's not
1:18:09
just a statement but just like any job there's a limit there's
1:18:13
a that's why
1:18:14
reasonable accommodation um like duty to accommodate reasonable
1:18:17
accommodation
1:18:18
exists right like there's a limit there's nothing in here
1:18:21
though that talks about
1:18:23
um physical requirements uh which is which is interesting um
1:18:29
because there isn't
1:18:30
SPEAKER_00: going to be
1:18:32
SPEAKER_00: heavy lifting, but it's something for me to consider, right?
1:18:35
SPEAKER_00: Are there any physical requirements?
1:18:37
I'm just adding a note for myself because that's something that
1:18:42
we talk about as well.
1:18:43
SPEAKER_00: Let's go to, yeah, accommodations.
1:18:45
SPEAKER_00: There's also know how to apply, which I made a note for myself.
1:18:50
I realized as we were discussing that there's no mention of
1:18:53
like,
1:18:53
how do you apply for this job?
1:18:56
Assuming you posted on LinkedIn or something,
1:18:58
it's pretty self-explanatory,
1:19:00
but I like to offer
1:19:02
SPEAKER_00: And some people might hate this alternative ways to apply.
1:19:06
SPEAKER_00: Not everyone has LinkedIn either.
1:19:07
SPEAKER_00: And so there should be a direct way to apply.
1:19:11
Maybe you need to make up an email address so that your inbox
1:19:14
isn't inundated.
1:19:16
SPEAKER_00: I've done that in the past two careers at or whatever.
1:19:20
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:19:21
SPEAKER_00: But how to apply needs to be on there.
1:19:23
So really the last part then is hiring process has been added
1:19:28
to this job posting.
1:19:29
SPEAKER_00: This is a bit long.
1:19:31
Our hiring process is designed to be thoughtful,
1:19:33
transparent and reciprocal.
1:19:35
SPEAKER_00: We view interviews as a mutual opportunity to get to know one another and
1:19:39
understand that you are assessing this company just as much as
1:19:42
we are assessing
1:19:43
SPEAKER_00: you.
1:19:43
SPEAKER_00: Through our conversations,
1:19:45
SPEAKER_00: we're looking to understand your experience and readiness for the role,
1:19:48
SPEAKER_00: as well as your curiosity,
1:19:50
SPEAKER_00: willingness to learn,
1:19:51
SPEAKER_00: and openness to growth.
1:19:53
SPEAKER_00: You do not need to meet every requirement perfectly.
1:19:55
SPEAKER_00: What matters most is your ability to communicate clearly,
1:19:58
SPEAKER_00: collaborate thoughtfully,
1:19:59
SPEAKER_00: and bring a working style that expands how we operate together.
1:20:04
We value the ability to work efficiently across different
1:20:07
communication styles,
1:20:08
SPEAKER_00: roles,
1:20:08
SPEAKER_00: and perspectives,
1:20:09
SPEAKER_00: while being clear about how you yourself show up.
1:20:12
SPEAKER_00: To support a fair and respectful process,
1:20:15
we will share interview preparation materials in advance
1:20:17
whenever possible.
1:20:19
SPEAKER_00: We aim to avoid surprises or gotcha moments.
1:20:23
SPEAKER_00: This role is first and foremost about collaboration,
1:20:25
SPEAKER_00: judgment,
1:20:26
SPEAKER_00: and communication,
1:20:27
SPEAKER_00: and that is what we prioritize throughout the process.
1:20:29
We will also share feedback throughout the interview journey
1:20:32
because we want you to
1:20:32
SPEAKER_00: succeed and genuinely hope you get the role.
1:20:35
SPEAKER_00: Our feedback approach reflects our culture.
1:20:37
SPEAKER_00: It is not meant to discourage but to create a reciprocal,
1:20:40
process grounded in openness growth and clear communication the
1:20:44
process includes
1:20:45
two structured interview rounds followed by a final meet and
1:20:48
greet conversation
1:20:49
with members of the team hiring decisions are made
1:20:51
collaboratively and final
1:20:53
decision authority with final decision authority held by the vp
1:20:57
people operations
1:20:58
and the managing partner informed by input from all interview
1:21:01
participants our goal
1:21:02
SPEAKER_00: is to have this role filled by mid april
1:21:06
SPEAKER_00: I got my,
1:21:06
this happens to me when I have to read too much in these
1:21:09
podcast episodes,
1:21:10
SPEAKER_00: my,
1:21:10
SPEAKER_00: I get a tongue cramp and I got a tongue cramp just reading that.
1:21:13
SPEAKER_00: So that tells me there's a lot of information there.
1:21:17
SPEAKER_00: It gets repetitive.
1:21:19
SPEAKER_00: It needs to be cleaned up,
1:21:20
SPEAKER_00: but in terms of the spirit and intent,
1:21:23
SPEAKER_00: very curious as to hear your thoughts.
1:21:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's long.
1:21:26
SPEAKER_02: It's long.
1:21:27
SPEAKER_02: I would, I would shorten that for sure.
1:21:29
SPEAKER_02: But the general thrust of it,
1:21:30
SPEAKER_02: I quite like your,
1:21:33
SPEAKER_02: you're talking about the process,
1:21:34
SPEAKER_02: which is good.
1:21:35
SPEAKER_02: Like maybe that could be bullet points.
1:21:37
SPEAKER_02: You could,
1:21:38
you could kind of have a hybrid section where there's like a
1:21:40
little bit of prose
1:21:42
SPEAKER_02: that kind of talks about the philosophy.
1:21:44
SPEAKER_02: And then there's just bullet points like,
1:21:45
SPEAKER_02: you know,
1:21:46
SPEAKER_02: interview round one,
1:21:47
SPEAKER_02: interview round two,
1:21:48
SPEAKER_02: decision made by X.
1:21:51
SPEAKER_02: I really liked that you and here
1:21:53
SPEAKER_02: But who has the decision making authority?
1:21:58
SPEAKER_02: Now,
1:21:58
the decision making authority being split across two people
1:22:03
from a functional
1:22:04
SPEAKER_02: standpoint,
1:22:05
SPEAKER_02: I wonder about that.
1:22:06
SPEAKER_02: How is the decision going to get made?
1:22:08
SPEAKER_02: And is that going to introduce a barrier?
1:22:12
Is that going to introduce complexity that might make the whole
1:22:14
thing fall apart?
1:22:15
SPEAKER_02: Because sometimes in small organizations, people don't get hired
1:22:20
SPEAKER_02: not because they're unqualified,
1:22:23
SPEAKER_02: but because the internal process to make a decision breaks down.
1:22:27
So I wonder if that's a risk with having joint authority here,
1:22:31
but maybe it's a necessity.
1:22:32
SPEAKER_02: Maybe the boss needs to at least rubber stamp it.
1:22:35
SPEAKER_02: Don't know.
1:22:37
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's a good question in my, my perspective would be yes.
1:22:42
SPEAKER_00: Um,
1:22:42
SPEAKER_00: final decision-making authorities by those two individuals listed,
1:22:45
SPEAKER_00: but at the end of the day,
1:22:46
SPEAKER_00: this role reports into VP of people operations.
1:22:50
SPEAKER_00: And so VP of operations makes the final, final call.
1:22:56
So if,
1:22:57
if that's actually the authority structure,
1:22:59
I'd be clear about that.
1:23:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:23:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:23:04
Um,
1:23:04
because I'm sure there are other people who would be like,
1:23:06
you know,
1:23:07
two people making it.
1:23:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:23:12
SPEAKER_02: So yeah,
1:23:12
SPEAKER_02: that section though is good,
1:23:14
SPEAKER_02: is good because often the hiring process is a bit of a black box.
1:23:18
SPEAKER_02: Like candidates don't know what that all looks like.
1:23:21
So having it here is A,
1:23:22
respectful and B,
1:23:24
it also helps them tailor their follow-ups.
1:23:27
They know who to contact,
1:23:28
to say thank you to,
1:23:29
to send that follow-up message.
1:23:31
SPEAKER_02: They know what the appropriate kind of structure for that is because they
1:23:34
SPEAKER_02: understand the process.
1:23:35
SPEAKER_02: I think that that's a good thing all in all, but it could be shorter.
1:23:39
SPEAKER_00: It could be shorter.
1:23:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you're right.
1:23:40
SPEAKER_00: It's too long.
1:23:41
SPEAKER_00: For me as a candidate, I appreciate all of this information.
1:23:45
SPEAKER_00: As an organization trying to incorporate trauma-informed practices,
1:23:49
SPEAKER_00: not having gotcha moments or surprises or blindsiding people is really,
1:23:53
SPEAKER_00: really important,
1:23:54
SPEAKER_00: especially for the types of candidates we hope to attract.
1:23:57
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's really important.
1:23:59
I also don't believe in it in general,
1:24:00
no matter who it is that you're trying to attract.
1:24:02
um unless it's a role that requires gotcha moments um to me it
1:24:08
doesn't really mean
1:24:09
a whole lot and you can assess someone's ability to think on
1:24:13
their feet during
1:24:14
those situational questions as well um so yeah i mean that's it
1:24:19
we bounced around a
1:24:20
SPEAKER_00: little bit um but that's that's just a bit i feel like you gave um yeah
1:24:26
you gave some really good notes and feedback i've taken lots of
1:24:30
notes here and plan
1:24:32
to do a full not full but a a rewrite trying to keep it a
1:24:37
little bit shorter when
1:24:39
we when we look at it now after we've made our um notes and
1:24:42
everything it still
1:24:43
reads at four pages it's still very very long um but i think
1:24:48
with some some editing
1:24:49
SPEAKER_00: we i'm
1:24:52
SPEAKER_02: I mean, four pages like our kind of gut reaction is that that's long.
1:24:57
SPEAKER_02: But in the grand scheme of things,
1:24:59
SPEAKER_02: a four page document isn't that long,
1:25:02
SPEAKER_02: especially when you put up the context behind that,
1:25:05
that reading this four page document might lead to an income of
1:25:10
between 180 and
1:25:11
SPEAKER_02: 105,000 a year.
1:25:12
SPEAKER_02: That's not a lot to ask.
1:25:15
And I think that it's the things that have been added in here
1:25:19
that aren't common.
1:25:20
in the hiring process that support the candidate experience are
1:25:24
quite good.
1:25:24
SPEAKER_02: So it's like,
1:25:25
will you read a little bit more to get more into this and have
1:25:30
a more informed kind
1:25:32
SPEAKER_02: of experience?
1:25:34
SPEAKER_02: Like I don't think it's the end of the world.
1:25:36
Like I would read a four page document that was structured like
1:25:39
this if I was looking for a job.
1:25:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, likewise.
1:25:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, same with me.
1:25:44
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, we will see how that goes.
1:25:47
SPEAKER_00: I will report back.
1:25:49
And hey,
1:25:49
maybe a future episode is the successful candidate comes on the
1:25:53
show and we interview.
1:25:55
SPEAKER_00: That would be really fun.
1:25:57
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I need to add that as a requirement for the job.
1:26:01
SPEAKER_02: Must be comfortable talking on camera.
1:26:03
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
1:26:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
1:26:05
SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for your help with this.
1:26:07
SPEAKER_00: I feel like we've successfully roasted this post.
1:26:11
Yeah,
1:26:11
and for the folks at home,
1:26:13
if you found this really useful,
1:26:15
this format,
1:26:16
let us know.
1:26:17
SPEAKER_02: Let us know.
1:26:18
It's something that maybe we could do in the future with other
1:26:20
people who are writing job ads.
1:26:22
We could do kind of a collaborative session and turn that into
1:26:25
an episode too.
1:26:26
SPEAKER_02: So if you dug it, just tell us.
1:26:28
SPEAKER_02: If there is silence, we will just carry on with what we're doing.
1:26:31
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:26:33
Thanks for riding shotgun with us on roast the post,
1:26:35
the story behind the bullet points.
1:26:37
If this episode helped you make sense of a messy job posting or
1:26:41
just confirmed your
1:26:42
SPEAKER_02: instincts,
1:26:42
SPEAKER_02: go find that subscribe button and tap it.
1:26:45
SPEAKER_02: We're on YouTube and all the usual podcast apps.
1:26:48
SPEAKER_02: So follow us wherever you like to listen.
1:26:50
And if you've seen a posting that made you raise an eyebrow
1:26:53
laugh or seriously
1:26:54
SPEAKER_02: questioned the sanity of the hiring process,
1:26:57
SPEAKER_02: send it our way.
1:26:58
SPEAKER_02: Listener submissions are some of our favorites.
1:27:01
SPEAKER_02: Follow the link in the show notes for more.
1:27:03
SPEAKER_02: We'll be back next week with another Post to Roast.