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S1E4: You Can't Control the Rain · Biblical Business Podcast

• speaker-0: And I'm trying to do everything in my ability to plant and water, knowing I can't control the harvest. God, why why are you not blessing these things? How do we need to shift the perspective of running a biblical business? Because it's different from just running a business. speaker-1: You can build a really successful business on the back of a really unsuccessful family life. speaker-0: If I feel out of control, I do things so that I at least start to feel in control so I can grasp for that control. speaker-1: And if I can just grab it tightly enough, I'll keep the ship right. Can you can you grab wind? The stewardship is the planting and the watering, but the outcomes are his. Would a farmer say he wasn't a good steward because the rain didn't come? I tell my kids, you win or you learn. You don't lose. And they they always now correct me and say, No, Daddy, you learn or you learn. I I do more now than I've ever done in my whole life. And I feel the lightest. Yeah. speaker-0: Three episodes in at this point, and you and I were having a conversation yesterday, just kind on the side. And just about the podcast, about the first few episodes, and something, man, that I've really just been praying about comes in from Galatians one ten. for am I now seeking the approval of man or of God, or am I trying to please man? If I were trying to please man, I would not be a servant of Christ. And And I think about that with this podcast, and I think one of the things that I feel is almost in in a sense like imposter syndrome, right? In the sense of like I don't want to come across as an idiot because I know some of the people who are listening to this are running hundred million dollar businesses, which is also crazy to think about. But speaker-1: Probably bigger. speaker-0: And that's just weird. Like speaker-1: And I'll never tell you that story. That's one of my favorite stories. And I don't remember his name, but he said he was making videos on YouTube for a long time. And he was super proud of them. They were like 40 minute videos. And he was getting like f twelve views. And he just kept going because he was he was proud of it. Come to find out, one of those twelve views I'm gonna tie this back to the last episode. Okay. One of those twelve views was Oprah. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: And that she was subscribed as some sort of anonymous watcher, right? Viewing. He ends up getting a TV show with her. Wow. Okay. From his twelve thirty view. You know, he thought basically all 12 views like basically my mom and my friends. Somebody that he had worked with, a client that he had worked with was on a private plane with her. They were talking about something. They said, you should really look at this guy. And so she pulled up her phone, pulled it up, and started watching his stuff. And so Obviously, the encouragement there is that in a world where we all chase views and we chase, you know, engagement and likes, you don't know who's on the other end of this. And so for me and for you, the aim is to reach people for business excellence to glorify Jesus. One person is enough on the other side of this if it changes something for them. It could be, sure, could be somebody running a multi billion dollar business. It could also just be somebody just starting or somebody struggling. And all of those are worthy of the endeavor of us like doing this. You know what I mean? And and so I don't know. I I think yeah, you're gonna have those people all across the board from a business size and scope. speaker-0: 'Cause that's definitely I think that's the first piece of it is like this wrapping my head around the idea of I feel so inadequate in comparison to some of the people who tune into your content who you're you've been you know inspiring for the past year. And and so I think that's the first half. And the second half, like flipping over to James three one of Not many of you should become teachers, my brother, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. And it's not that I'm trying to come out here and teach, but it is that we are talking about God. And I'm way more afraid of God than of man. Yeah, and and it is it's a weird it's a weird dynamic because I was like, okay, I don't want to look like an idiot, but I also don't want to preach a fa false gospel or pervert the word of God and and it's like this this fear that I have where I feel like it's a pressure. It's a pressure. And so then it becomes really hard to show up authentically. speaker-1: I think the beauty in that is that the truth is we are both ill-equipped rags who don't know anything about anything when it comes to the mystery of the creator God and your heart in that simply, where it's like, Hey, I don't want to misrepresent God. I don't want to say something that isn't there. I think God sees that. I think He knows that and He knows your heart in that. And because of that, you can come authentically, and the pressure is completely removed because his burden is easy and his yoke is light, and his sovereign will is going to be done. And so we can rest well because at the end of the day, this is true living, active words, sharper than any two edged sword. It's gonna eat. All we're trying to do is like open the door to the cage so this thing can eat. And yes, w let's just like I don't know. Let's like burst the bubble right up front. We're going to get things wrong. we're going to not interpret scripture in the most scholarly way. We're going to say things that are probably not in alignment contextually. Like we're going to get things wrong. and in humility, I call anyone and everyone to. Chime in and honestly get on a get on and share. Because at the end of the day, we don't want people looking at us. We want them looking through us and to him. So I would say anything we say, test it against the word of God and don't worry about you there's no pressure in that sense. Yeah. Now. Plans of the diligently surely to abundance, we are called to excellence. We are called to, you know, preparation. But That is not going to override the fact that Jesus is the only perfect teacher. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I I the thing that's so weird just in we've posted two episodes, recorded three on our fourth. And the thing that's so weird to me is how easy it is and how easy the process has been. Meaning after episode one, having someone to reach out and want to sponsor. Right. After episode two, talking about bringing on an editor and this guy Casey reaches out and is like, I'll I will intern and do this for free. And he just happened to be an editor who helped Vic Blends go from under one million to four point five million. And he was just like, Yeah, I'll do this. Like I'm I'm in. And speaker-1: And and his wife Malia. speaker-0: yes, and his wife. And and speaker-1: Newly married. speaker-0: yes. And it's like how easy that process, how easy this entire process has been, is so crazy. And it's so crazy because it's God's blessing it. It's in God. God is just green light. It feels like we're on a slide just going. And I think about it in comparison to Shallant. like when I when I look at my company last year, the reason you and I met was from a coaching opportunity. And from that, like I remember recording a video, sending it to you. I'm in a hotel room beat. Like I am, I've been shooting all day. I'm shooting again tomorrow. And I I'm just like, something has to shift, something has to change for the sake of me, for the sake of my marriage. And it was It just became easy that you and I started working together. And like the green lights and and the coaching and the wisdom. And man, I think maybe a month or two into our relationship, it was, man, like I remember my dad passed away. Yeah. Two weeks after that, my nephew drowns, and my brother-in-law kills himself. And I remember it was just My coming into that season, I think my body and my mind was tired. And it got to a point where, okay, my spirit is tired. And I I need some sort of a break. And so, you know, going it was the decision to take 40 days off. Whereas like turning off not just like off my off of work, but it's like off of everything. And it's like turning off my phone, turning off my computer, turning off work if anyone needs to get in touch with me. Like you can reach out to my wife, but I don't give an an email or phone number. Like you have to go track her down. speaker-1: If you don't have a number, then you d you don't get to call me. speaker-0: Yeah. So if it's important enough, you will figure out a way, but it's probably not important enough. And taking those 40 days off. And I it was weird, man, because like building up into that, two years in a row, the business had almost tripled in size, like year, like year after year. And z realizing I could just step away from it and like was a blessing, right? And it's like stress from a Business standpoints, like stress testing everything. But man, it was very much The Invitation of Solitude and Silence was like the book that really was great for me in that season of just turning everything off where I can rest, where looking looking at Elijah, he he essentially runs into the wilderness, falls asleep, and an angel wakes him up and tells him to eat. Then he goes back to bed and the angel wakes him up again and tells him to eat before he journeys into the wilderness. And then Elijah's like, What what wilderness? What journey? And he goes, you know, he goes and walks through multiple deserts at that point before you know approaching the face of God. And a lot of that sabbatical for me, a lot of those 40 days was that inspiration. And I remember a mentor of Mine, I was talking to him about it and super, you know, sharing with him and super excited and you know, he reminded me, he's like, just because you're being obedient does not mean the Lord's gonna reward that obedience in a monetary way. because I just had the faith and the trust of like, I'm gonna come back into this and things are great. And something I'm so grateful for is I came back and the pipeline, the sales pipeline that I stepped into. was what we did the previous year, like day one, like in January. And I was like, my goodness, we like, God thank you. Like, let's cook. And it's wild, man, because it it all those opportunities just like slowly started to to drip like to just drip away. And like you're trying and like feeling out of control. So you're doing all these things to try to figure out. Hey, how do I drum this back? How do I, you know, get them to say yes? How do I get them to sign the contract? All this stuff. And man, it's just like just gone. And it feels like when things there's there's like two types of hard. It's like there's and I I almost equate it to working out. When you're working out and you're lifting something, you're like, man, this this sucks, but it it's good. It's a good kind of suck. Right to where it's like painful, I'm gonna be sore the next day. And there's another one to where it's like, mm, that's not feeling right. Like my that's hurting my knee and it's and it's in a painful way. Yeah. And and dude, I feel like I'm coming from the season of the second to where it's like this has just been hard. And I'm trying to do everything in my ability to plant and water, knowing I can't control the harvest. But still trying to be a good and faithful servant and and not understanding, God, why why are you not blessing these things? Like I I feel like I'm blessing my employees. I feel like I'm sharing Jesus with them. I feel like I'm loving them in so many good ways. I feel like I'm getting to do that with my clients and we're making great work. And I don't understand. And it's it is just this resistance that that's coming in the season. And we're here a week and a half into even just doing this podcast. Yeah. And it's so easy. It is it's so many green lights. It feels like we're just riding a slide down and I'm I'm kind of floored of just how easy it is. Mm-hmm. And because I'm I'm directly comparing it to these two things. speaker-1: Yes. speaker-0: And I don't know what to make of it. I don't know what that means. But just the observation of like when God works that it doesn't make sense. It like it really might not make sense at all. speaker-1: Well, and if it doesn't make sense, it for me it would come back to something you said, which is like God, why aren't you blessing this? And I think we have to define our terms. What is blessing? Is it a blessing that you are drawing nearer to him? Because if he is our peace, then the closer you draw to him, the more blessed you are. And so in this season where let's say things change, and there's no question, like there are several people that I worked with where as soon as we start talking about how to lead your business for Jesus from the front door, they start to feel attacks. but you can reframe that in a lot of senses and say, is that an attack? Or is it a gift? Is it a gift that provides you perspective that draws you nearer to God? And I think the question becomes what is being blessed? Is being blessed having all of the money that we want and for waking up, you know, being easy? Is that what being blessed is? Is being blessed being close to the Lord? And in what seasons of life have you been the closest to the Lord? And in the upside down, there is this wild thing that happens to us where I think God gives us an opportunity in his infinite wisdom to feel and draw close to him. In those seasons of feeling like we have the least amount of control. And that is why it says that his strength is made perfect in our weakness. For when I am weak, then I am strong. And so we chase strength. And while we chase strength, we run from God's perfection. If his strength is made perfect in our weakness, then you can deduce that trying to be strong takes you away from that perfection. I think redefining what it means to lead from a place of peace and contentment with the outcome, not the outcome we want. So, you know, we can ask ourselves the questions like, do we do I trust God or do I trust God with the outcome that I want? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Because a lot of times it's like, God, I trust you to deliver on this. But do you trust him not to? Or is that is that the bad result that you think is gonna come? So I I think trusting him in all circumstances is the thing that doesn't make any sense back to what you said. It is the peace that surpasses all understanding. Listen, if you have peace because the money's flowing and everything's perfect, that doesn't surpass anyone's understanding. That makes perfect sense to me. But when your life is not all of those things that the world says you should bring you peace and you have peace, then it surpasses understanding. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Like I I'll I'll tell you like where I am mentally in it is like is God are you calling me to something else? Like are you redirecting my path? Yes. And and if so, listen, I'm here for it. And of course it's like what I want is like just tell me. Like speaker-1: Just give me the billboard sign. speaker-0: Yes. Yeah. Cause I think it it feels I I guess what I'm afraid of is like I'm not being A good and faithful servant in it. Like I've been trusted with business because it's not my business. And I know I'm not in the outcomes game. But the fear that I have is like, God, like, am I you can bless abundantly. Like it it is more you have oil, you have oil to give, and it's just a matter of how many vases can I bring? And I'm like, am I just not bringing enough vases? Or I think of it like from like a like father to child dynamic to where like you want to love your kids and it's like, you know, if they if they want a certain food, you're like, Yeah, sure, but can they have that every day? No, probably not. And, you know, maybe that's Taco Bell. I don't know what that is. speaker-1: Listen, you know that's a yes for me. The pro here's the here's the here's the reason that you're that I all of us face this hill to climb. It's because we're basing everything. The call it goodness of our stewardship, you're defining it by if the seasons come. If it's a a good rain in spring and if the sun comes out and if plants grow beautifully, or if this is like a different kind of season, you're defining your stewardship on the thing that you have no control over. The stewardship is the planting and the watering. But the outcomes are his. So you're saying I'm not a good steward because the outcomes of the seasons haven't gone. The rain never came. So I'm not a good steward. Would a farmer say he wasn't a good steward because the rain didn't come? No, he'd go, right? That's why contracts still have acts of God in them, right? Like that's the part that you have to remove definitely remove your identity from because it can't be tied to that. You have no ability to control it. Your stewardship of of the business that you lead or the job that you have is in what you do each day. That's it. speaker-0: And I and I guess what I'm afraid of is God continues to talk about like the the value in both knowledge and wisdom. And I I remember when I was in high school, I was not the sharpest tool in the shed. And it was to to quote smash mouth. so the it what really was not until college that I started to see things in a different lens. And what it was was I remember working for like a Christian director, John Irwin. So like he's done like House of David now and Woodlawn was the movie that I helped him with like way back when. And it was, I remember sitting around a meeting and he was quoting all these different books, Crossing the Chasm, Creativity Inc., Good to Great. And I was like, I've I have no idea what you're talking about. And I'm sitting around this conference table with all these producers, with all these like direct like the director, these people who are doing the thing, and I've like I feel so ill-equipped. And so what it became was okay, well, I'm just gonna at least read these books. And then I realized that I could learn and gain knowledge by work ethic, essentially. Like if I am willing to sit down for eight hours and read a book. Or pop in some earplugs and listen to it. Like I will know more than I once did. And I I f I get to grow in that knowledge. And now from the wisdom side of it is I'm I I guess that's more of the phase that I'm in is like trying to have wisdom and trying to have discernment in these seasons. And as I look at my season, I like I I totally hear what you're saying of like you You're looking at the wrong outcome in this business. And it might not necessarily be a monetary one. And and my fear is that the Lord has something else for me. And He's trying to redirect my focus and attention and my energy, but I'm being so stubborn that I'm not letting this go. And when he's like, I have this thing that's so much better. Because literally, when when I think back to when we first started talking about doing this podcast. June? Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Right. Maybe earlier, yeah. speaker-0: And and nothing no, you're like, Yeah, yeah, we'll you know, we'll play with it, like we'll sit with it. speaker-1: Yeah. And I was definitely like, Well, if we do it Yeah, like like I told you. I w this I want us to be Christopher Nolan filmed in seventy millimeter and you know, big big dreams. speaker-0: Yeah. And then it it was last week that was the decision of like, let's just do it. Let's not overthink it. Let's just go. Yeah. And speaker-1: And motion creates emotion. speaker-0: Yeah. And I'm just like speaker-1: So so listen, you're in this place where a lot of people get. And I would say many times, if you've write the Just Do Something by Kevin DeYoung, if you have sought his word, if you have prayed, if you've sought biblical counsel, now you need to just do something. And I think I definitely have struggled with listening to God's voice. And letting the noise of my own desires or my pride or the world drowned out, right? It's the different seeds that are sown, right? The parable of the seeds. And I think when you're in that place where you're like, I feel like maybe God's calling me to into something different. Well, that sounds like God's putting something on your heart. So the the Just like Solomon, knowledge and wisdom can die at the doorstep of obedience or action or execution. And I think the thing that we fear is that we're going to make a wrong decision. That's really the fear, one way or the other. And if you go through, right, you've consulted his word, you've prayed, you've sought biblical counsel, you've waited on the Lord, Isaiah 40:31, then just do something. And Like we you said from the beginning, how crazy. We start last week we made this decision and it feels like the wind's at our back. Yeah. Huh. So like God was waiting. And we finally just took a step. Now the question becomes how do you define that this is going well? Right? Now what are your success metrics? Is it that we're doing it? Because I believe that's the that's the mark of success, is that we're doing it in obedience, that we feel clear that we're gonna move and then we move. And if in fact it's not God's sovereign will, we're not gonna undo his sovereign will. We might take the long road to get there, but we're not gonna undo it. speaker-0: I mean I'm I'm looking true it's it's two examples, right? It is like a sponsor after episode one and an editor after episode two. And I I look at that and I'm just like speaker-1: Technically it was an ep it was a it was a an editor before episode two came out. speaker-0: Yeah. Yes. Yes. speaker-1: So speaker-0: And it's like I'm I to me, I'm just like, God's God is putting the wind at our back. Like it is becoming so easy. He's just presenting these things that feel like they should not have happened certainly this quickly. And I I guess what I'm trying to understand is like is the way that you also interpret that. That the Lord is just opening these doors as a green light. speaker-1: You know, I think when you say it, I think about it, but I am wired to just go forward once I've made a decision. And so for me, the wind at our back was the decision to do it. And when you and I basically same pages and went, look, we're gonna ship two of these a week and we're gonna go, now I'm I am full court press and the Lord will stop me. I expect there to be challenges. I expect there to be pushback or like I don't expect it to be easy. and I d also think that it's it's you have to be cautious about saying that if it's easy then the Lord's in it. But if it's not then he isn't. There's definitely a ton of nuance and gray area there. But there is some I would say, yeah, absolutely. When I see like you said, you know, like we didn't just get an editor. We got a really high quality dude who's who loves the Lord and who's got a huge heart and who wants to be a part of this for the long term. And that is only something God could bring. Now, it was the obedience of us asking for it. It was the obedient right and and you've got the same people who are right, like Jen was Telling me like in the comments, you can't you you know, it's really criminal that you would say this is for free and you know, you you can't rob people. And it's like you can you can look at all of those things as pushback, right? Or you can look at it as no, this is like I'm gonna listen and try and hear that still small voice and then move in obedience. And he'll correct me. I pray that he corrects me, and I pray that, right, just like I Prayed before this podcast, right? Let the words of my mouth and the meditations of my heart be acceptable in your sight. Like, and if he decided to blow this up, great. I'm excited. What what are we doing next, God? And so I do think it's really cool when things happen out of nowhere that you that don't make sense. Back to that whole like surpasses understanding. Cause I Because I think that gives it makes it so easy for me not to try and take credit for it. Because only God could make it that easy. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And so I like I have asked God for wisdom and to bless this podcast. I expect him to. I do. And so like I watched a lot of UFC. You know, when when Nate Diaz beat Connor McGregor, he I'm not surprised. He he said something else right after that, but I'm not surprised. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And I that's where I want to live. I want to live in this cool place where I'm not surprised because honestly, I have for the last four years even just been surprised every at every turn with God when He does something crazy. I'm like, Wow, wow. And I'm starting to enter a phase where I'm just not surprised by all the amazing things he's doing. speaker-0: Yeah. I I think about the invitation of bringing God into the business. Like 'cause for you it was like four years ago. For me, it was like less than a year. And to to go to John Mullaney, it is like a horse leading a dog, where it's like where it's you're you're you're further ahead than I am in this journey of inviting God into the business. And so I I'm Curious to know what have been some of your experiences that you've had in those additional three years of how you've seen God show up in your business now that you've actually invited them into the process, into that part of your life. speaker-1: I mean in ways there's the there's the small ways and then there's the I'm gonna call it the ways that that I can the monuments, God's monuments that I can polish easily because he made them big. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I think I have seen the most amazing things happen in timing. So for example, I'll give you one small example. When I joined Sherman, we had about eighty six million dollars in assets under management. And you know, company was no brand, no product, no software. It was just, you know, Excel spreadsheets and pivot tables, but something that a lot of advisors had used for a lot of years. And we went on to build this turnkey asset management portfolio and platform that grew to like a billion and a half dollars in in asset center management in very short order. Now, your earlier this year, maybe it was even December, earlier this year, Dan Pinkerton, the owner of Pinkerton Enterprises, was like, hey, I'm submitting for us to to become to see if we can get qualified to become one of the, you know, on the list of fast growing tamps in America. And I was like, cool. Cause I hadn't thought about it. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: We're just building, right? We're just going. Well, as he goes down that path, because of when we started the tamp and because of the growth that we had, all of which was not like timing we could have predicted, they came back and said that we were ranked the number one fastest growing turnkey asset management platform in America by a country mile, no one even close. And that we'd probably hold on to that for the next several years because of how fast we grew. There was no way I could have predicted that. That just so I we just so happened to get that notification the same week that we paid off completely the company debt and became a debt-free company. Two two and a half years in. And because of that, started giving away, because we part of it was that we would pay off the debt and then begin giving away 51% of our net income to advance the gospel. and I can tell you five other things that happened almost in that same two week period that Only God could have orchestrated. And I I look at stuff like that, and I look at I mean, I could tell you things like getting asked to go speak at a family office conference, you know, and getting paid some exorbitant speaking fee, and you know, flying my wife and I out first class to Scotland, staying at a castle, all that. I didn't have any plans for that. And guess what? When I got there. Not only was I able to just talk about the seven laws and how they're all rooted in biblical wisdom, but the proprietor of the castle came up to me and said, Hey, I got to talk to you. I read about your stuff. this is the best church in Scotland. I'm like, What? He's a total believer and he's got a ministry in Africa where he equips entrepreneurs. He was like, I'm sorry I'm late to come meet with you because I was just praying with. You know, one of the girls here who her and her boyfriend broke up, and so we were having this conversation. That connection is impossible to make, right? And impossible to plan only for God's glory. And so, you know, in the past, I would have been working really hard to try and figure out how to get recognition and how to bring in a big client and how to do this and that. But God, in his Amazing graciousness would do things that I had nothing to do with, just not only for him to get glory, but just to remind me of how much I have nothing to do with it. And I think Before I, you know, decided, yeah, I want to lead a business for Jesus from the front door, before I understood that business and my faith weren't separate, it felt really hard. It felt like I was constantly striving after win and clawing and fighting tooth and nail to to win at whatever the thing was that was in front of me. And you know, I would say I do more now. Than I've and I've done a lot. I I do more now than I've ever done in my whole life as far as things going on. And I feel the lightest. And I think obviously there's times where things are hard and you know, but I feel such peace that God is in complete control because he just demonstrates over and over and over how he is and how I have nothing to do with it. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. So my question my mind goes to what becomes our responsibility as a CEO. And the reason I'm I want to ask that is because you talked about how beforehand things were harder. Like you you did have to claw at things that almost felt like clawing at the wind. speaker-1: Yeah, and I still won. That was the worst part. Yeah. speaker-0: Hmm. speaker-1: I still got I still achieved by the world standards. speaker-0: Yeah. And I I I want to just wrap my head around that because it is this this the what we're taught about business, right? Okay, here we go. Well we what we're taught about business is ultimately it's an outcomes game. And right, there's a scoreboard. And typically that scoreboard is ultimately just revenue and or profit or and like one of those two things and probably speaker-1: How much money are you making, brother? Yeah. speaker-0: Yes. And and so I everything that I've known to understand about business, it to me, I feel like I'm losing the game. Right. I feel like the score's down and and I don't know what kind of halftime speech has to happen, but but I'm having a hard time because if that's the case, right, if if kind of what you're saying is the scoreboard is irrelevant because you're measuring the wrong things. Yeah. Then how do we need to shift the perspective of running a biblical business? Because it's different from just running a business. speaker-1: Yeah, I I immediately just thought of Ecclesiastes at chapter five, verse ten. He who loves money will not be satisfied with money, nor he who loves wealth with his income. This is also vanity. When goods increase, they increase who eat them. And what advantage has their owner but to see them with his own eyes? Sweet Is the sleep of a laborer, whether he eats little or much, but the full stomach of the rich will not let him sleep. The way I think about this, this is why I love, and I think you've I know you've read the book Living Life Backward by by David Gibson. all of Ecclesiastes is this reminder from the absolute the first trillionaire. The you want to talk about first trillionaire? It was Solomon, wealthiest, wisest. And he in chapter two, he goes through all of this stuff that he did, and then he says, Then I considered all that my hands had done. And the toil I had expended in doing it, and behold, all was vanity and striving after wind, and there was nothing to be gained under the sun. Nothing. He literally looked at everything he did and the toil that he expended doing it, and he went, What am I what what is this? There's nothing to get here. Our responsibility as CEOs, as leaders, running a business for Jesus, a biblical business. Is to see that it is stewardship of a lot of things. Ultimately, all of those things are God, are God's, and money is just one of the stores of value. It has no intrinsic value. That is not our scoreboard. Our scoreboard is the stewardship today. So, how are you managing the finances? Are you looking at them diligently? Are you making things better? Are you serving people well and with generosity? Right. That is essentially the idea of biblical business, right? That idea is not my idea. It's God's idea. And there's a lot of other people who've, you know, written about it beforehand, which is this is the best business book you will ever read. And what it means to run a biblical business is that you seek first the kingdom of God, and then all that other stuff, including your business, will be added. And so our responsibility is to truly approach it as stewards and not define our goodness of that by the outcome on the other side. So I I think it's really hard. That's really hard for people to see. So let's just look at some things, right? There's the things you can control, and there's the things that are outside of your control. So good stewardship means you're getting up every day. And you're planting and you're watering and you're preparing soil and you're tending. Right? That's the that's the that is good stewardship. That's what defines good stewardship. Wake up every day and get to work. Tend. There's gonna be stuff that happens that is completely outside of your control. You could do everything right and things still won't go well because of something that you didn't see, something that you couldn't predict. You could also, by the way, we'll not just start defining success very seriously. You can build a really successful business on the back of a really unsuccessful family life. And so if your standard is we're highly profitable, we're making good money, we're growing, we're reaching people, we're serving people, we're giving them great benefits, we're we're baptizing people here, and we're doing all these amazing things. Meanwhile, you are not. Loving your spouse as the Bible has called you to. You're not serving your family as the Bible's called you to. That's not success. All you're doing is like redefining the terms, right? That's why we know so many pastors' kids who are really jacked up speaker-0: Sure. speaker-1: and resent the church. And your business can become the same thing. If your business is something that your family resents, it's probably a good sign that, Maybe you got some work to do. And those are honestly, some of these are not not some. All none of this is that complicated. Sometimes it's just simply asking the question of the people who love you. Like, how how how am I doing? Ask your kids, how do you feel about my job? How do you feel about business? Hey, honey, how how am I doing with you know, presence here? Do you feel like I'm gone? And it's not gonna be perfect all the time. That's the point, is that you're stewarding that today, right? So you can't go back and change what's happened. You can't go forward and predict the future. So we're gonna change what's happening today. And I think that's what it really means to lead a biblical business. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And I I'm ha I think Kinda kinda what I'm hearing is like, hey, you're not you were not responsible for the outcomes. You're responsible for the watering and the planting. And speaker-1: And let be clear there, you also can still set goals. That doesn't mean we don't set goals. You can set goals, but then hold the outcomes with an open hand. speaker-0: And do you so I I'm what I'm what I'm hearing is kind of it's twofold. One in the business, it is the responsibility as a CEO is about watering and planting. and then there's also this responsibility outside of of your business that you are still responsible for as a CEO and as a Christian leader, to where you You have to love your wife. speaker-1: You're responsible as a whole human for the life that God has given you to steward, which includes your relationship with him, your relationship with others, your relationship in your business. speaker-0: And so what I'm curious of, and it's double clicking into the into the business side of it, is then what does if if the won the only thing that we're called to is to water and to plant, yeah, what does that look like practically? speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, practically is exactly what I wrote the book Biblical Business for. It's like, okay, cool. What does that mean for how we manage the money? How do we set up reserves? How do we manage cash flow? What do we do with execution and accountability? How do we market? Practically, it means that you are every day stewarding the thing that is in front of you. And Th this idea of getting one percent better is not a new idea. Every day we wake up, I want to be better than I was yesterday. And practically that's what it means. I think for a lot of business owners, it means leaning into the areas that you are avoiding. Asking yourself, what are some of the things that I've been avoiding in this business because of whatever? Fear, pride, shame. And then making those adjustments, laying those at the altar, and in humility, stewarding them better. It's a especially in small business, you have a lot of people who have built businesses that are completely reliant on them. And that is so selfish. Because if you died tomorrow, every person who works in your business would be impacted negatively because of that. If you're a real steward. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Then you would build it so that you were dispensable because you already are dispensable. Right? Psalm ninety twelve, teach us to number our days that we may get a heart of wisdom. We need to understand that all of these things are temporary, man, and we don't know what tomorrow will bring. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble. And when we look at the business, there's a lot of people who are avoiding a lot of things that are hard. They're avoiding them because they're hard. And that's not stewarding well. That's most times it's driven by fear, fear of what will change. And when you look at, you know, the parable of the talents, I think a lot of people talk about, well, you know, we're called to multiply. We're called to multiply. And while I agree with that, I think that there's also a deeper lesson there. I think that the one who said, you know, get behind me, right? You wicked and slothful servant. Right? Like it was because he operated with fear. He said, I buried it because I was afraid. It wasn't really about the return on the investment. I honestly, I I've heard somebody else say this, and I completely agree. Like, if he would have lost it, I don't think he would have been condemned the same way. If he would have like put it somewhere and lost it. Because the outcomes are still God's. And Fearing anything but Him is not what God is calling you to. So if you're not dealing with a problem in your business because you're afraid of something else that isn't God, then deal with it head on. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. I th I think I'm having where I'm getting hung up and this this can turn into a full coaching session. Where where I'm getting hung up is like I think of like there's an acknowledgement of my pride. I remember back in May, one of the guys on my team came to me and he was like, Hey, I know things are slower right now. Would you want to just move to like a project based like payment instead of me being full time? And I like I was like, no, no, I don't want that. Like I the and I think at the time it's like I because I want to bless you, because like I want you to be okay, because I don't want to ha you to have to worry about this. And and I think that you and I had a conversation about it to where it's like move him, move him to that basis and I even tell you about that conversation that he had with me. And you're like, move him to a project based opportunity instead of a full-time thing. And I look back on it and realizing that it was a gift, that my pride got in the way of something that would have made a ton of sense. Like that would have from a business side of things makes complete sense. But at the same time, it feels like a failure. speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: And is it a failure failure because of how the world has put our understanding of business? speaker-1: I think that failure is the cost of learning. And I think when you're looking back, you go, okay, a good way to deal with it is go, what would I have done differently? Before that. Forget the conversation, right? Because pride is a sneaky weed. And it just like pops up and you you know later and you're like, that was weird. I thought that was totally gone. And it's like oop, bang. Yeah. but If you would have done something differently from a stewardship perspective before that, then maybe it was a failure, a failure to do that thing before. But that failure is not failure unless you don't make the adjustment, unless you don't learn. Right? Like I tell my kids, you win or you learn. You don't lose. And they they always now correct me and say, no. Daddy, you learn or you learn. Like you need to learn from your wins and you need to learn from your losses. And so I think Sure, like, man, hey, I I don't want to have to move them to a project base. So what? That's what the environment in the business is currently requiring. Now, if I'm sitting here and going, Okay, great, three years ago I would have told you to apply the net seven method. Have seven months of operating cash reserves so you can survive a two quarter winter, manage your AP and AR days, do some quick pay discounts. I want you to know those days, right? Okay. Then you go, Yeah, I guess I could have done things differently. Perfect. Now learn. So you you're not going to change that. So now we move forward. It's not a failure. It's an opportunity to get better. I mean, the way I, you know, learned how to have better one on ones with people was by having a bunch of really terrible ones. The way I learned how to horizontally lead was by doing it really poorly and getting some feedback in my failures and then, you know, trying to make adjustments along the way. But it wouldn't have come if I wouldn't have been humbled. speaker-0: And I think where I'm at right now is like, God, I want to learn. I want whatever if you're trying to teach me something, I'm here for it. Like, I don't know what that is, but like open hands and like I'm coming with a humble heart, humble attitude. there's if there's something I don't need, if there's something I need to know or learn, like I pray that you make that clear. And if it's a heart thing. To where it's like, hey, I'm I'm protecting you for something because I need you to change here. Like, God, I pray that you soften my heart and that you expose that. And so I can grow closer to you and and leave my business in a different capacity. And what I want is like, you know, what I want is like my dad to sit me down and be like, hey, XYZ. And it's not always that clear. speaker-1: Well, and if it were that clear, would you be that dependent on him? Or would you get your marching orders and then go handle it on your own? Because the the the presumption there is that there's something you need to learn that's going to solve something in perpetuity and that the lesson isn't for life and in everything. speaker-0: Okay, so you're saying you're saying it's less of a Hey, the lesson to learn is maybe it's not you. Maybe it's like rely on him. Like rely on him like speaker-1: Seek first the kingdom of God, find your dependence in him, and then the other stuff gets taken care of. speaker-0: 'Cause 'cause so then I go to like the psychology of it. Cause I think so so often it's like as a CEO, your ceiling is ultimately your psychology of like why do you make this make decisions the way that you do? And and I think about that and I know for myself, if I feel out of control, I do things so that I at least start to feel in control so I can grasp for that control. When my wife and I were first married, my default would like we'd be arguing and I would start cleaning the kitchen. And it's because it's like that's what I saw my mom do. And it's like, you know, and maybe like where there's like disorganization. speaker-1: He's like, This is cool. Maybe you what the kitchen's looking a little dirty. Let's have an argument real quick. speaker-0: Yes. And and it was the realization of I'm just trying to grasp for control in a situation to where I feel out of control. And what I'm trying what I feel like I'm trying to do now is like plant and water in all these things, like in a anywhere in the business that I possibly can, because I feel out of control. And recognizing, hey, maybe that's the point. Maybe it's like you're not in control in the first place. speaker-1: That's right. speaker-0: And so that's speaker-1: God uses, he uses our performance to show us that we didn't need to perform in the first place. He uses our desire for control to show us just how not in control we are. And it's like he's just patiently there, like, you know, a little half smile, like he's coming around. He's coming around. He'll see he'll see it soon. When this next thing goes down. And he had nothing to do with it, no control over it. Maybe then. Maybe this, maybe this will be the one. Right. And I think, obviously God's not saying maybe anything, he knows it all. But the point really is that I think that desire for control is very natural, especially I think if you grew up in an environment where you felt like a lot of stuff was happening to you. And so you needed to kind of like, okay, how do I grab hold of this? I also think it like goes back to you know your mom dying and your nephew drowning and you like suicide. These things happening are completely out of your control. And so it's like, I need to get in control here. And if I can just grab it tightly enough, I'll keep the ship right. And that's the I think that's the whole idea of striving after wind. Can you can you grab wind? speaker-0: And and so speaker-1: Like t have a picture of that for a second here. Like think about striving after wins. It sounds like the dumbest thing ever. You would think somebody was like on skid row or something if you if you saw them striving after women. speaker-0: So then my question goes to how do I relinquish control? What's the balance of relinquishing control while still planting and watering? speaker-1: I think that for some of us it requires a season. It one requires regular Sabbath. So if you don't have regular Sabbath, it's required. Because that is a week to week or period to period release of control. And you know what's crazy? Like I I I think I shared on a maybe the first one. Like I don't want to rest. I I have no desire to rest. I am constantly wanting to go. And that is not what God wants for me. He's made that very clear in his word. And the most amazing thing is And you just keep showing up. I mean, just like last week, I did it again. I'm chasing this one thing, not even chasing it, but like working toward this one thing because I think that's the thing. And then something completely different comes out of nowhere that's way better than that, that I had nothing to do with. And it was when I was resting, it was when I was doing nothing. And I think relinquishing control needs to be something that you do every day. But it's a realization you need to come to every day that you are not in control. And there is a difference. Okay. The analogy works really well. That's why God's so brilliant. You can control the planting and the watering. You can't control the seasons. So it's like asking a farmer, like, how do I relinquish how a farmer asking you, How do I relinquish control of the rain? You never you there's nothing you can do about it, brother. You gotta wait it out. It might be a drought. You can pray. You can wait. And you can do what you can to prepare the land and to prepare your crops or to store up for famine or whatever it is, the things that are right in front of you. But it's a it's a fallacy to think that you need to give up controlling the rain. speaker-0: So Sabbath is one of those opportunities to where, okay, yeah, I can relinquish control. What are what are some other practices that you've found? speaker-1: If I am feeling anxious. And I am feeling urgency, haste. I take the opposite approach of whatever my brain is telling me to do at that moment. So it's like if if you're sitting there and you're like, man, payroll's coming. we we gotta do this. Let me see if I can drum up some business right now. You know, I'm gonna fire off some things, just go stop. You know what? I'm gonna go for a walk. I'm gonna I'm gonna call Jen. And say, hey, what are you doing? I'm gonna come home. Or I'm gonna go to, you know, an extra soccer practice in the morning instead of, you know, or I'm I'm actually gonna cancel that meeting tomorrow that I think's super important, reschedule it for next week. Just cause, you know, I need to do the opposite right now. That kind of s for me, it's a lot of like small shifts. So apply the asymmetry essentially to any time you're feeling urgency or or anxiety because the urgency is another I think very interesting one. Like, whose timeline are you on? speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: Who said that you need to do this by this time? Now I I'm not talking about like I've got payroll to make tomorrow. Okay. I'm talking about we have these desires for our business and for what it's going to do and how it's going to grow. And it's like, if you're telling me that you God's put on your heart that your business needs to 10X in the next year, and during that window Your walk with him dies, your prayer life dies, you have no Sabbath, you don't spend time with your spouse. You don't that God's not calling you that. He never called you that because he called you those other things first. So I think practically it's taking thoughts captive throughout the day and then taking making small pivots of like mini Sabbath. You know, like I don't believe in the whole like just like you can't bring your faith to work, you can't do the inverse either. You just are you. And so you need to find these like moments of Sabbath throughout the day. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Can can you help me understand what you're talking about when you say you can't do the inverse? speaker-1: you can't leave work at home when you come home. You know, they tell you like, don't bring your your problems to work. Don't bring work to your problems. So you kind of we we kind of are told the same thing, right? Like, well, just leave your leave your business stuff at in the business when you come home. I'm sorry, but unless you are, I don't know, a clinical psychopath that level of or dealt with a whole butt bunch of trauma that I'm not qualified to talk about. Building that level of disconnection or severance. This isn't the show severance. You don't that you're not we're not going down the elevator and up the elevator becoming different people. and so it's not really about for me work-life balance. It's about rhythm. It's about pace. So The reason it's so hard for you to leave work at home is because you never can. The reason it's so hard to bring to not bring your faith to work is because it's who you are. But it's just a lot noisier there. And that one feeds a little bit more into the stuff that we desire sinfully. And so we're willing to kind of put to bed the faith part while we're at work. but like Jen knows, we talk about it. I don't turn off as a human, but that doesn't mean that you can't be where your feet are. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I can still sit at dinner and be thinking about and listening to my kids talk about what they're grateful for and having conversations and then five minutes later I can be thinking about something else. That's the reality. Like that's just the truth. For anyone to say that, yeah, I when I come home, I turn it all off. maybe you can compartmentalize talking about it. But your brain still has it in there, your body still has it in there, your heart still has it in there. If you're feeling stress about a huge thing that's going on in the business, that won't be plucked out of you. So that's kind of what I mean on the inverse. speaker-0: Yeah, I I think too something from a very practical standpoint that you've done a really good job of is your work setup. Like I I I think about it, you know, my speaker-1: You talking about the vibe? speaker-0: I'm talking about like the speaker-1: With this fancy new microphone. So the person who wrote the review that said the audio was really bad on the first episode. speaker-0: This is for you. This is for you. do what I'm talking about specifically is like I think that there's value in a commute only for the sake of like you leave your place of like your home. Yeah. Like where you where you rest, where you kind of like decompress and you go to somewhere else where you are going to work. And that environment's completely different. You can leave your computer there. you know, you can when you're in that location you're in that mental mode. And I think something here, like for me, I was like, this is just a room that we have. And I it's hard because like I could just walk out, right? And in 10 steps I'm in my living room. And I think that you're set up to be like, okay, it's a five minute drive still on your property is is the gig because like there is a physical location, but the physical location that you leave and come back, but it's such a short drive that it becomes negligible. speaker-1: Right. Yeah. And I've done I've had the three hour commute, you know, to to downtown LA. I've had the three and a half hour commute to Northern California. and I've worked at home, especially when you have young kids, man. That's the hardest. I I I Jen joked for a while, like she's like, please stop working at home. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Because you're on calls and you're like muting it and you're like, Okay, everybody, quiet down there. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: You know, and and now you create stress for them too. Yeah. Because they're like, can we, you know, can we talk? Can we and so I've done I've done all of it. I've done the working at home. I've worked in an office, you know, at an actual office, for most of my life. And then for the last, I don't know, decade plus ish, I've worked remotely. and there's definitely something to creating separation. Especially for the workaholic. speaker-0: Mm, mm. speaker-1: because it's kind of like the people who say, like, I have a light phone, right? And people are like, Well, you should just like not look at your phone so much. And like that cool, I hear you. that's not how serotonin and dopamine work. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah. speaker-1: If I have it, I'm going to look at it. speaker-0: Totally. speaker-1: So that's like saying you should work at a liquor store if you're an alcoholic and just control yourself. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. speaker-1: That's that's dumb advice. So creating that space of separation and leaving, you know, your like I leave my laptop here. it creates some form, at least in my opinion, a a healthier form of access. Right. It's like atomic habits. You got to make it easy and make it obvious. So I'm not making it easy or obvious to do more work. and of course, these things have made it way worse, right? Yeah. so that's a lot of your choice as well. But, you know, just like anything, man, it's on the other side of a decision. Yeah. You want to work out, you just gotta make a decision to do it. speaker-0: Yeah. I I mean I I do really love I I the the recommendations of like the Sabbath and then the observation of anxiety, urgency, I think were two really good observations. And I think the location separation, the idea of using a light phone, I think is ultimately so helpful and just be able to create that time of rest. And I'm sure also is really helpful when it comes to lowering that. Anxiety and speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, how much anxiety have you have felt float out the window? Now you have to get over a period of time, but when you've gone into somewhere with no service. Yes. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: It's like maybe at first you're like, no, no. But if it if you spend a day or two somewhere, three, all of a sudden you're like, figure it out. speaker-0: Yeah. Dude, especially like the when I took those forty days off, my I it was so anxious because like the worst thing that can happen on a film set i is someone dies. Like that's like not out of the question and crazy. Yeah, yeah. And like you're dealing with high voltage electricity, you're dealing with a lot of big gear. you know, it's there's just all sorts of stories. speaker-1: Well, and I would guess it's uncommon in your industry for somebody who runs a film production company, owns film to who who's normally on set or even partially on set to take that much time off. speaker-0: completely. Yes. And so that that first week was almost more stressful. Right. Right. Of like turning my phone off. speaker-1: I'll on vacation but now I have to like whatever, I'm I'm punished by my vacation 'cause I have so much work to do when I get back. speaker-0: Yes. Yes. dude, you know the other crazy part of taking those 40 days off? When I came back, my team my my team was on it. I set a timer because I was like, how long is it gonna take me to respond to all my emails and all my Slack messages? It was like 37 minutes. speaker-1: How amazing is that? I was crazy. Or by the way, and now you've got AI. So now you're like, dude, three point seven minutes. speaker-0: Yes, ge I genuinely. I was shocked that speaker-1: I I like the idea. I've thought about this a lot, but that whole I don't like to rest always comes up. I've thought a lot about like building in a rhythm of like every three every third month I take off. speaker-0: Yeah. Mm. I mean I I feel like I'm trying to get in the rhythm now of every once a quarter I'm taking at least a week off. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And it goes back, dude. I mean like I just had it. I was so so stressful 'cause it was it was like, my goodness, you know what I should do is like I should do like this with the business and like we should try that and right and then like speaker-1: During my window of freedom, I'm actually going to work a lot more. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. It's just like the expectations that it like we're gonna do something is gone. And so which is nice for us because like we can just kind of go into our little caves and like tinker and do and like get work done, but no, there's no expectation. So I feel like we're getting ahead. And then it's like the end of the week comes and I'm like, This sucked. Like this, this what did I just do? What did I just do? It was speaker-1: I will tell you that is a gift that is a gift of Like if I take a week off and I do home house stuff. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: It's awesome. speaker-0: Mm. speaker-1: You know, I'm gonna we're gonna work on a project, we're gonna put in a fire pit, we're gonna plant plant, we're gonna a planter, we're gonna whatever, do something in the garage, we're gonna that kind of stuff. You know, there's a there's an old, I want to say it was a rabbi, who said essentially, if you work with your hands, you Sabbath with your mind. But if you work with your mind, you sabbath with your hands. Love that. So like if you're a knowledge worker, which you know, we're all now on this assembly line, which was never meant to be for knowledge work, and we're pumping through, like somehow it works that way. When you go do something like dig a hole, your brain rests in a different way. And I think that's the Cal Newport deep work. I just I love that. And I think. Or even like we were talking about Rick Rubin on on the Bartlett podcast, like, hey, you know, go go go to museums, read great literature, do stuff that has nothing to do with what you do, and see how that like feeds your soul. And watch great movies and you know, do things that are just I I think some people we're so especially now, we're so obsessed with productivity that we're now in this endless well of it where Our ideas can no longer outpace the speed of execution. Now we can do anything as fast as we think of it. And that's dangerous. That's dangerous for your soul. speaker-0: Can can you help me understand what you're talking about when you're explaining like the assembly line for knowledge work? speaker-1: Yeah, so Cal Newport talks about this. I think there's also a book called The Second Machine Age. and the idea was that during the Industrial Revolution, you know, Henry Ford essentially invented the assembly line and it made for really amazing productivity, right? And so you could actually pump out a bunch of stuff. What we've done is we have continued to apply that to the workforce. Right. But past the industrial revolution and into knowledge work. And we started to put knowledge work through this idea of an assembly line. Like we could just we can work this way with our brains and go through to try to get as much productivity out of it. But it's a it's a fallacy because from a an actual neuroscience perspective, your brain. fires, functions, and makes connections differently when you aren't doing things. And the burnout that everybody feels is because we're putting knowledge work through the assembly line. And it was never meant for that. And so, you know, in in his book Slow Productivity, I think it no, it might have been deep work, one of the two. I I read both of those back to back, so I feel like I I confused the two. But it was like This guy just sitting under a tree staring at the sky. And it's like, was he being productive? Yes. Because his brain was doing these connections that would have outputs later that we we couldn't actually imagine. And I think they did the same study with like a controlled group walking through the woods before they did this thing versus somebody who didn't and how they performed higher simply because they had this like their brain did something different to prepare when they didn't constantly feed it. knowledge. And so between our work and social media, it's like one more podcast, one more book, one more audiobook, one more, you know, one more pump of the data. And it's like, it's good. But like Prince said, you know, the internet is a tool. You know, use the internet, don't let the internet use you. speaker-0: Yeah. Dude, it reminds me a super similar story. you probably read this book. I I don't remember where it comes from. There was some consultant who came to Henry Ford, was looking around the factory and trying to observe and how he understands everything. And there was some dude in the corner with his feet up on the desk and like he was going through like the payroll, realizing how much this dude was making. And they call that out. And the consultant calls that out and Henry Ford's like, Yeah, he had this idea. you know, earned us, you know, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars. So speaker-1: He gets to chill. speaker-0: he gets to chill right there because that's he was sitting in that same chair with his feet up on the desk when he had that idea. So he can stay right there and and keep getting paid. And I was like, that's there is such a time. I I'm just so I want to do. And I'm I'm curious, it's like how much of that is the anxious energy, like the urgency that you were talking about. How much of that is like the feeling of out of control that, you know, is coming from a very like childhood place. at first like how much of it is like I'm just genuinely excited about what we're doing. And I have like all these ideas that I want to just move on. And I don't know the dynamic. And I think it's just ultimately discernment that is weighing through each of those. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean I think there's definitely both. I would say if it's the latter, then your posture and attitude would continue. Right? Kids who are excited about stuff are just excited about stuff. They're excited to like try new things and do new things. But when you start to get depressed because whatever, then it's like I've crossed the chasm into maybe, maybe this is more like I need to be in control because if I'm in control, then I can deliver result and when I deliver the result, then I can prove that I'm worthy and valuable. That's the proof that I'm that what I'm doing is worthy, that I'm a good servant. That's what will prove it. speaker-0: Yeah. man, I even think and this was this I thought right when we started working together. It's like I think you had asked me two, three years ago, like what like what's something I'm most proud of. And I think it would I would have said my library. Just like the amount of time that like I've taken to read all these different books. And it's super fun, like you and I just like chatting about it now. And I think at the same time, it was this realization of like Dude, I w I wish I had just focused on the Bible more and understood that. speaker-1: You and me both. speaker-0: And yeah, I I not to say it was like wasted time and effort, but go going back to Ecclesiastes is at a point at a certain point that knowledge just becomes van just vanity. speaker-1: Listen, I've I've been a Christian since October of two thousand. So that's twenty six years. I'm currently on my fourth read through the Bible. That is for you know what? The perfor on the performer, I'll tell you it's despicable. The fact that I stake my life on this book and I'm out here consuming and reading so many other things, and not this. I don't feel guilt or shame. I feel conviction. I feel conviction from the Holy Spirit that it's a place where I have an opportunity not to prove anything and not to perform. But to simply see and be with him more intimately. And I think that it's also hard to read, even for people who like to read. Sure. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: But why do I have disciplines around all these other things and not this? Why am I trying to figure out all this productivity and optimization on everything but the thing that I say is the only true and living? Mm. Word of God. So I mean I think Yeah, man, I don't know. I I I feel the same way. I've I I love books, but I've definitely started to read less. speaker-0: Same. Yeah. I I mean, I had years where it's like like cruising past a book a week, you know, of just like and this is fun, you know, and it's learning and engaging. At a certain point it's false productivity, right? Yeah. And and it like it doesn't matter how many people speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: exactly. Yeah. So it's like, okay, what's it for? And and dude, so much of it it really goes back to the idea of like if we We have never seen business as a sport as a game being being looked at through the lens of what does biblical business look like. And it's so hard because it's it's not even it's a and it's a different scoreboard. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great speaker-1: Right. speaker-0: Yeah. It you're like you're no longer looking at like touchdowns and field goals. You're l suddenly I don't know, this is awful comparison, but like you're suddenly like looking at you know, how many penalties or, you know, what the rushing average is. speaker-1: I that's a great analogy and I think it feeds into the reason it's so difficult and interesting is because it's the same thing of like, Well, what does it mean to be a good Christian? And you might have like some table stakes on like your answer to that. But there's going to be a bunch of different things that come into play. It's so dynamic what it means to follow Jesus with your whole heart. And there's no difference. There's no difference between the heart part of leading a business from a biblical worldview and just walking with Jesus. Because if you walk with Jesus, you'll lead a business. Right? Because what does that mean? Well We can start with some basics, like you'll be praying and talking to God. Yep. You'll be reading his word. You will be fellowshipping with other believers and helping to sharpen and bear one another's burdens. You'll be telling other people about him. Right? There's like some some basic table stakes that if you redefine the scoreboard for just all of life, including business, then that's when. Like everything I just said there has nothing to do with outcomes. Like I didn't say how many baptisms and how much revenue and how many times you read the Bible over, because those are all those all become pharasetical approaches to what it means to walk with God and they move from planting and watering to controlling the rain. speaker-0: Dude, it just it makes it just makes me mad. It makes me mad that it's like the enti I spent so much time trying to learn business, trying to understand that game. Because ultimately it is a game, right? And it's like at this certain level, these are the foc like you this is what you need to focus on, right? And speaker-1: Here's how to run a supply chain, here's what you need to do with with manufacturing agreements and there's stuff that you need to learn for speaker-0: Yeah. And then like most likely when you're at five million, you're trying to go to ten million, these are the bottlenecks, is between whatever. And I get so frustrated with it now because it's like I'm pla you're playing the game. dude, you okay, you're gonna get this. It's like you're eight years old playing in the playground and like you're playing this game and the rules are established, and then like someone changes the rules mid game. speaker-1: New kid from a new school. speaker-0: Yeah. yeah, they got different they got different rules. And like that's what it feels like is like why did I spend all this time learning these rules to just be told, Hey, you're playing the wrong game like it th those don't matter anymore. This does. But then, wait, I'm so sorry. But then there's also this point of I I I think so much about even in the book of Daniel, of like knowledge and gaining knowledge. And Daniel spending like three years learning Babylonian culture. And yes. And it's like there's value in knowledge at the same time. And so I'm like, I'm trying to discern and trying to weigh both of these things out, knowing This this piece of it for knowledge, just vanity. If we go to Ecclesiastes, right? We got clarity on that. But also, I feel like there's an importance of it. speaker-1: Absolutely. I don't think that it's you throw the baby out with the bathwater. And I think we live in such a world of like either or that it there's definitely a both and. When you look at Bible, you see God filling men with his spirit, filling people with his spirit to be very skillful, skillful workers. Right? When you look at David's mighty men, when you look at like people who were artisans to do incredible things, like God still works through that knowledge that we have in practicum because he created it all. Right. Like when when you hear Jesus say, like, or you read the word of God and you see God feeds his people, right? Well, then you go, well, how's that practically happen? It gets plant, it gets farmed, and then it gets put on a truck, and then it's refrigerated and it's processed, and it's it's by the hands of his people that he's created that he does it. And there's knowledge required in that. And so I think It's not that we abandon the knowledge and the desire to have deep knowledge and to be skillful workers. It's just that we do that for his glory and not ours. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And so I think about this time in human history to where knowledge is abundant. And there's a there's a author I love, Tiago Forte, who has a whole essay where he talks about in the beginning of time, essentially land was the most valuable resource. And kingdoms would work to conquer this land to be able to build up their kingdoms until suddenly there was no more land left. And at that point, we start to reach like the industrial revolution to where, okay, now we have manufacturing, now we have to figure out how to make the most of these resources. And suddenly time becomes the most abundant the the the thing that we're fighting over. Not land, now time. And in the two thousands, that shifts one more time to where it's like we can now fill all the time. That we want with anything we want, right? We could scroll the internet for hours. And even then, you wouldn't be able to get to the bottom of the internet. Like you could go you could go through anything and everything. And so suddenly we have a shift to where attention is the most valuable resource. Even you look at the social media platforms and you're no longer seeing like if it is free, right? You are the customer. or you are the product. And so it's like our data is ultimately getting sold to advertisers to you know funnel the whole thing. And now it's getting to a point to where, okay, like all of like the attention is shot. Like, you know, you could you could continue going in that direction. And so suddenly perspective is the the resource that becomes the most valuable, to where someone can have the most interesting. perspective who could take this domain and this domain and find a connection, which I think is why this is so interesting, is because no one I don't know. I I feel like I've read a ton of different people and tried to find what this conversation is for a long, long time. And no one was talking about what it means to bring Jesus into your business, which I think is the most like is revolutionary, but also Emphasizes the importance of the perspective being the most valuable resource. Because now if we're able to take all these different pieces and parts of life and connect them in ways that we've never been able to see before, suddenly that becomes really interesting. And and I say all that to say I think it's such an interesting time because as we're reading the Bible, it makes sense that knowledge was such a valuable resource because it was hard to come by. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: And now I could literally Turn on any AI platform and ask it to grill me on and quiz me on some subject that I know very little about, and suddenly I will begin to know more. And it is an abundance of knowledge. And that's a really weird place to be. And and so, how the question I'm kind of wrestling with is: how do we find that balance of knowing more, gaining more knowledge, understanding? It's all for naught. And in conspi in in comparison to the Bible, it is really all for naught. speaker-1: Mm. speaker-0: How do we how do we find that? Why why do we even keep reading books? speaker-1: Mm. It's a great question. I think that I don't think it's a new problem. I don't think that we've crossed some chasm into something new. Attention has always been a currency, and time has definitely, since the beginning of it, always been a resource that people want more of. Whether that's trying to live longer. Whether that's trying to be at home with their family or go on vacation like people want time. And what all of this boils down to is if all judgment is equal, if everyone has the same access to information, what is your source of discernment? It's kinda like going into a great marriage. You know, one of the most amazing things about a biblical marriage is that you have this to settle all arguments. Yeah. When you don't have a single source, just like in business, when you don't have a single source for everybody to go to, a single source of truth, things can get kind of messy because essentially it becomes who can convince who the most? Who's the best salesperson? So I think as we navigate this like next phase where information is abundant, those two things will continue to be important. So you will still need to gain the knowledge of skillful work through books, but just like before, you will need to take that information and put it through the lens of biblical truth, actual biblical truth. And that is only possible if we spend more time here than we spend here. So I don't think it's do we get rid of every book? No, because you know, there are books that inspire thinking. And there are books that inspire you also to ask questions that you need to constantly go back to the source on. but they help you to, I don't know, learn how to navigate. technology or learn how to market better or learn what aerospace engineering means. Wisdom is still going to be the highest level of currency. Even in the day of high production and wealth, when you know Solomon has everything and all wisdom, you know, Queen of Sheba and other, they wanted to come to him to hear how he thought. Right? Discernment. And so when you do have access to all information, one, can you discern what you want to focus on? And then Can you discern from what is true, aka your single source of truth, and what is noise? And so I think I think becoming a skillful worker at anything is a part of excellence and it's it's required and I love books and knowledge and videos and lectures and you know, bring your kid to work day and go, you know, be an apprentice and all of those things. I think those are really valuable things. But there's nothing more valuable than having the word of God hidden in your heart speaker-0: Hmm. speaker-1: to be the discernment for all of those. speaker-0: Yeah. Okay. But before we before I leave you on that one, I want to get your take on this, and it's something we I know we've kind of wrestled beforehand, is with the speed at which things are changing. it I think about some of these books and some of them become antiquated. And some of them could be, you know, a substack article or you a YouTube video. And like I can't tell you how many books I've read that I'm like, dude, you could have one chapter and like I I get We were good. Yeah. We were good. And and so there's part of me I'm like the time value exchange to where it's like I give you eight hours and I I don't feel like it was worth it versus I watch like a twelve minute YouTube video and I'm like, dude, that was interesting. And I had not thought about it before. And like I don't want to feed the beast of You know, I could go through the dopamine hit after hit after hit and feel like the false productivity of I'm learning and gaining all these things. But I also think that there's YouTube videos that have taught me more than some of these books back there, a lot of these books back here. And so I'm trying to weigh out also, you know, is Where where do we put our time? Where do we put our attention? Like as entrepreneurs, like yes, okay, we agree the Bible ultimate source. Wisdom is like the the filter that we have to this lens through. speaker-1: Put that one there. Like let's let's let's say checkbox we we agree. speaker-0: Yes. Yes. So second layer. Yeah. I want to get your take on it. speaker-1: So I believe that we do ourselves a disservice when we attempt to get the microwave version of everything. I think that, for example, let's just use one of the books I talked about today, slow productivity. I can same with just do something. I read both of those books, cover to cover, really enjoyed them. I can tell you the three things that they talked about. Those are the only three things that I really remember, right? Slow productivity, very simply summarized, is do fewer things, work at a natural pace, and obsess over quality. Great. You don't need to read it. Just do something, right? Pray, seek biblical counsel, wait on the Lord, and then just do something. But why did they stay with me? believe that when you sit with something, it gets into you in a different way than when you microwave it. It's like you remember that guy that we we went to that that place the culinary stone yes and he made butter him and his wife made butter chicken yes amazing fresh non was incredible and we were just talking about like different foods and stuff By the way, big Taco Bell fans just want to throw that out there because they know what they're talking about. but they he was saying that pasta is always better the next day because the ingredients get time to know each other. I think it's the same thing with books. I think that if you play stupid games, you will win stupid prizes. You can listen to this podcast. On 2x, you can read a book as fast as you can, like that guy on the that. You can do that, right? It's not going to serve you the same way. So the question just becomes again, discernment and judgment. Right? Like, how do I decide what to read? Well, how do you decide what to read? How do how do you decide what to read? speaker-0: That's a fun question. I think typically at this point it comes from recommendation. speaker-1: That's right. And don't you think that in an abundance of more knowledge, it'll continue to be on recommendation? Sure. Yeah. So the way I apply my second layer, same idea. It's it's recommendations from people that I trust, that I trust their reputation, I trust their judgment, their taste. I feel like I might have similar taste. And then I go get it, not because I'm trying to power through it, but I'm I am trying to sit with it. And I think in this world, books are a great place for you to sit with things that you otherwise probably won't. And it's definitely not, listen, it's not an attention span thing. I I don't buy that. People watch three hour Rogan podcasts. Sure. People watch two two hour all in podcasts. You have the attention span. Maybe you have it in the background, but you're still listening. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: It's just a choice. And I think the simple act of reading, I mean, there's plenty of people very smart who can tell you this. The simple act of reading does something different to your brain. speaker-0: Totally. speaker-1: So you can get you can have the AI give you like the the the quick version of it and then you'll kinda know how to spit the bullet points out. Or you know, like this this book right here. Okay. This book is is beloved, beloved by by Francis Chan and his daughter. Mercy. They wrote it together. Short book, right? Like really margins that are super thin, but like, you know, I'm underlining, I'm writing in it. I was spending time with this book. Like here, here's an underline for you. One of our greatest weapons in this struggle is the word of God. It's basically a a weapon against our belief that we're not valuable. He's and he even said that they've felt the strongest attacks in decades when he was writing this book. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Now, you go, okay, well, you could probably ask AI to give you like a quick version of this. But sitting with this book was really valuable for me because I do everything fast. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. And so to me, there's a difference between a steak and chips. speaker-1: Not just to you, to science. Sure, sure. speaker-0: So I think about this and I'm like I where I used to approach every single book was like it was a steak. And realizing a few chapters in, no, it's it this is not it. speaker-1: Yeah, that's that's the almanac, right? That's that's Naval's approach, which I don't I don't disagree with. He's like basically I read it until I get the gist. And I'm fine with speaker-0: Mm. Closing it. Yeah. speaker-1: Now, I'm a little bit more neurotic. Because it's like it's like that would be like somebody saying that Breaking Bad wasn't a very good series because they saw the first three episodes. What it becomes is not what it started as. Not every book is like that. Not every movie's like that. Most of them aren't, as a matter of fact. But you might miss something or that you could learn about yourself and about it along the way. speaker-0: Hm. I like that. That's a great perspective and a great place to speaker-1: Then so then you just become a little bit more picky about what you you pick up too. You know what I mean? It's not like I'm gonna grab every book and voraciously devour it as fast as I can. It's like, I'm gonna read a book here. I'm actually gonna go kind of slow. take a few weeks. speaker-0: Yeah. Have you read The Ruthless Elimination of Hurry? speaker-1: yeah. That's it's why I f still fully stop at stop signs or, you know, drive under the speed limit. Yeah. there there are there are lessons and again I could I can give you the things that I took from it, which is really like that's the Maya Angelo, right? Like people don't won't remember like what you said to them, they'll remember how you made them feel. I think books are that way. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. That's a fun place. And that's a fun place to end, man. speaker-1: Thank you, brother. Yeah.