Latest / That's Not Spit, It's Condensation! / #209: Why You Play Worse in Auditions Than in Practice | Tessa Vermeulen

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#209: Why You Play Worse in Auditions Than in Practice | Tessa Vermeulen · That's Not Spit, It's Condensation!

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_04: Hello, and welcome to Condensation.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_05: Hello, and welcome to That's Not Spit.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_05: It's Condensation.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_05: I'm Ryan Beach, and I'm Kathleen Costello.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_05: And today we are excited to be joined by a friend of ours, a colleague of ours, someone we have learned a lot from, uh, Tessa Vermulin.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_05: Tessa is second slash assistant principal flute of the Alabama Symphony Orchestra.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_05: So how long ago did you join the orchestra, Tessa?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_05: I can't remember.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, it's it's really flown by.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: I started in January of 2024.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: I moved to Birmingham on New Year's Day.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_05: Nice.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then we rehearsed on the third.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_05: Sweet.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_05: So, you know, like if I do some rough math, two and a half-ish years or so.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_05: Um, and sometime during that period of time, um we began to work with Tessa on audition preparation because she is actively pursuing taking auditions to just keep pushing herself and see like what else might be out there.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_05: And it's interesting, maybe you'll be able to speak a little bit to some of the conflict within you, depending on how much you want to get into that.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_05: Taking a job, but you know, being happy with where you're at.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_05: So, um anyway, thank you so much for giving your time and joining Kathleen and I to share some of your perspective.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: Very excellent.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_05: You want to get us started, Kathleen?
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_05: Sure.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, Tessa, why don't you just tell us a little bit about your background, you know, education, whatever you feel inspired to share, and anything, you know, current about your.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we just shared your job, but if there's anything else you think would be relevant, you could share that too.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: So I was born and raised in Chicago and the Chicago area.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when I was in high school, I was in the Chicago Youth Symphony Orchestra, which established just a really solid base for me in terms of orchestral playing love of the orchestra.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: I got my bachelor's degree in flute performance uh at Carnegie Mellon uh with Alberto Almarza.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: And then for my master's, I went to Juilliard and I studied with Robert Langevin.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I was starting to seriously take auditions um towards the end of my undergrad time.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Alberto was an amazing audition coach.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then I continued that um very intensely into my graduate degree, and it was during that time that I won the Alabama audition.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had a semester left of school.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_02: They were kind enough to allow me to finish while sort of beginning to live this temporary but dual life um between New York, closing the chapter of my education, um, and starting my first job.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I absolutely love playing in the Alabama Symphony, and I love my colleagues, and it's been a really interesting time being a jack of all trades in my position.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: I get to play principal, second, and piccolo pretty frequently.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um I do I do continue to take auditions because ultimately I I do believe that my my purpose is as a principal player.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I also am honestly addicted to the challenge of auditions.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_03: And can you say more about that?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think everything to do with the process of auditions, it's probably my deepest um niche interest.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if you ask me about it, I probably have the most to say.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Because when I was you know 20 or so and I was taking my first auditions, I thought it was just about playing.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: But it's an amalgam of physical, situational, and most of all mental and perhaps even spiritual um challenges that come together in this really complex collage, and it makes you it forces you to think about a lot of different parts of yourself.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think that's really become my favorite thing about it.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's a great place to jump into.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe you could tell us a little bit about, you know, what I mean, at that first point that we heard you, you sounded fantastic.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously, I was part of the committee that hired you for the job in Alabama, so I'm a big fan of Tesla's playing.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just curious to know, um, like just tell us a little bit about taking auditions before you kind of started working with us for a little bit of coaching.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I I ended up having a really good run with auditions um before I before I started in in Alabama and before I started working with you guys.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um I feel as though I really I really nailed down like the nuts and bolts of being super technically and musically prepared.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I would sometimes really feel like I hit a great mental place.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: The issue though, when I was younger, is that some I felt that there were conditions outside my control that sort of had to be met for me to access low state, access a state of necessary detachment, um, perhaps, from the situation and from unplanned things occurring.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a somewhat not just somewhat, this is a very limiting attitude to have that you don't have total autonomy to flip the switch, to choose to be absolutely mentally engaged and grounded right when you need to be.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so that's something that's something that I was really interested in exploring how how to sort of get that almost every time.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like let's up my percentage of auditions I take where it feels totally within my grasp.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_05: Can you give an ex- Sorry to interrupt, I just want to make sure we don't go too much further.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_05: Can you give an example of one of those things that is outside of your control that you would feel would need to be met for you to feel like you could enter flow state or that necessary point of detachment?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I'll kind of compare and contrast like when I was younger versus how I feel now.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: When I was younger, if I woke up on audition day and I picked up my flute and I like wasn't really happy with the sound, I'm just like, um, I feel like I'm having an off day.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: This this would instantly become in my mind some sort of block to going through with exactly what I had prepared.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would go, I would still, of course, do my best and like try to ignore it, but it would be a lingering like a lingering thing where I feel like, oh, I'm I I can't quite, you know, get what I wanted in the practice room.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: My attitude now is that can we save that?
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_05: Can we save that for later?
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_05: And I just want to stick kind of like with where you're where you were at before, if that's okay.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_05: So we'll save it.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_05: Okay, so we're okay, yes.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_05: We'll save that.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_05: Just just so we're st I don I don't want to get too far ahead of ourselves.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_05: Do you have any other kind of things you want to ask about this period right now, Kathleen?
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't I don't think so.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I would just put in there that I would totally agree that you know your technique and your musicianship is outstanding.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, you had just kind of that you'd sort of said that you'd felt like you were able to prepare those things to a very high level and just want to confirm that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I totally agree.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_05: So this may be this may be what you were just saying, but if we kind of put like a real real clarity to it, I suppose.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_05: What's one thing you felt was a real asset to you that led to some of the success you had in Alabama or in other auditions?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_05: And what's and then what's something that you felt like you were looking to dial in?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_05: Based on what you've just said, it might be kind of hey, the nuts and the bolts and that that kind of thing in the music was a real asset, and the other side of it would be the mental side of it, but is that how you would say that?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_05: Would you say that was an asset and a thing you were looking to dial in, or would you answer it differently?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: I would I would absolutely answer that way.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think an asset of mine from the beginning has been that I'm extremely detail-oriented.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I I was really good at intuiting, analyzing, and then planning every detail of what I wanted to do.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I would go, I would go into auditions, really knowing what I wanted my my voice to be.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that I wanted to dial in was the lingering distractions, intrusive thoughts of doubt, mental blocks, you know, mentally dealing with variables that feel uncomfortable to me.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's the thing that I was seeking more consistency on.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: So what made you feel like getting outside help through our program was the right move for you?
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that even it is perhaps even more important when you leave school to keep learning.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: And when you get opportunities to add more mentors to your like inner circle of trusted teachers, colleagues, mentors, you need to you need to jump on those opportunities.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I do think that the funny thing about teaching is that I think all teachers are trying to get at the same core thing, we're all going for the same thing, but you encounter teachers at different points of your life, and each one is going to present a fraction of this core in a to you in a different way.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that by accumulating these puzzle pieces, these different interpretations of really like what is the purpose of what we're doing and how do we go about it, you can get closer to forming the innermost i idea of how to go about making music.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I'm presented any opportunity to get a different viewpoint, especially at an interesting juncture where I'm out of school and I'm looking for new forms of structure within my, you know, fledgling professional life.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's it was very important to me at this time to work with you guys.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and so there's a lot of different ideas and thoughts and people out there who could be people that could pour into you and be a mentor.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_05: Is there something about the way we were talking or things that we were doing, things that made you feel like moving forward with the things we were talking about felt like the right thing for you specifically?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: There I mean, absolutely.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I really resonate with the way that you listen to the way that you give information and also your constant um striving to better understand the things that you're researching and how to make these things very applicable.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, I'll speak very honestly, from the moment that I um came to your guys' house and I played a mock for you guys the first time, I think there's an intangible thing that happens when you when you play for someone new and and you feel, oh, I can trust, I can trust these ears.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a really open environment, and I feel like I can really be myself and I feel like I'm really gonna get something out of this.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: I felt that immediately with you guys.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I'm sure we're gonna get into it in more detail, but there were many aspects of your guys' approach and attitude that opened total new doors for me and have made me rethink, you know, prior ideas I'd have not only about auditions, but about like how does life work?
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: How does the world operate, you know?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean we can do that now.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Do you maybe talk about a couple, you know, one or two concepts that you've specifically implemented in your you know preparation process that you feel like has made like a significant noticeable difference for you?
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna go ahead and say that I think there's two major things that at least in the way that you guys imparted it, felt like groundbreaking things to me.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um number one the purpose of practice, the purpose of preparing for an audition is not to completely prevent anything unexpected or unplanned to happen.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's when I was younger, I I I very literally thought practice makes perfect, and so if anything happened, it would become a whole uh moral conundrum.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: But what I really appreciate about your guys' approach, it's like no, the purpose is much more like a meditation practice where it's not about preventing any mistake from happening.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna, I mean, you're gonna vastly reduce anything happening by preparing super well for an edition.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is just objective proof.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: But the purpose of preparation is that when something happens, not if, when something happens, you trust yourself to come back to the present.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_01: And the meditative aspect was really groundbreaking for me because I ended up just actually having fewer things happen in the first place because I accepted it.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And this is you know, not to get all deep or anything, but that's how the world works too.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: You can't you can't prevent stuff from happening, you know, not everything.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then sort of tied to that is this the second main idea that that was really a game changer for me, which is how do we work on staying in the present moment?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: We can work on our technique, we can work on our tone, we can work on our interpretation, but the umbrella over all of this has to be this separate skill that has, you know, it it again has to do with come back to the present at every single moment in the music, find something to tether yourself to.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um in the last audition I took, I feel like I was really able to do that because with um with your guys' program and the way that you know every single day is laid out, which I love the structure of that, by the way.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: I was practicing at what specific points am I going to retether myself if my attention falters, and by maintaining present in this, I do think that this is how we get like this is how we interact with the composer, this is how we interact with the music because yes, we're here to express ourselves and put our own voice into it, but we're also just vessels, and self-doubt and distraction, it gets in the way of the the dialogue that we're having with Mozart or with Bach or with anybody.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: Can I ask a slightly off-script question here?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, and it's a little bit of a leading question, but I'd just be curious for your reaction to this.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you think that some of that, like, do you think that your generation has a unique kind of relationship with um distractions, like based on you know the time period in which you grew up with?
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just curious to know, you know, since you brought this up as something that's been so eye-opening or or like game-changing, as you put it, like what kind of advantages do you think this like offers you if this is something you continue to like like work with and um you know continue to implement in your process moving forward?
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to to answer the first part of your question, it goes without saying that my generation is yeah, our environment is rife with distraction and we're falling, we're falling to it constantly.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do think that it has a profound effect on the way that our brains work and operate.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and of course everybody has this environment now too, right?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like we deal with this as well, but we also remember a time, at least a little bit like way back when, you know, before all those things, and you know, my kids are teenage our kids are teenagers, so you know, we kind of we see it with them too, like how they just you know never got that time that they don't really have the same thing that we would have, like, you know, working in a way where we could at least, you know, hearken back to what that might have been like.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: We have some like memory of that.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um yes, we all have to deal with it.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I do, but but to your point, it does make a difference when you were born.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I'm just old enough that um my childhood was fairly um internet-free.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I didn't have like an i, you know, I obviously didn't have any iPad, any cell phone.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then also, you know, not to go on too much of a tangent in this area, but um we live in a society that is it we're really leaning towards like all of these quote unquote like time-saving um avenues.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do we do this faster?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do we get the result we want quicker?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: How do we make it easier?
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like we don't even have to leave our house, we don't even have to, and there are fewer opportunities now to, and this is like a way in which music is is really unique right now, like specifically classical music.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: There are fewer things that require you to like pick up a tool, like pick up a physical tool, or you know, put yourself in a certain setting and then be forced to take the long road.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you play an instrument, you have to take the long road.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: There's no there's like there's no way, there's no like digital way around um making a good sound on the trumpet.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's so true.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Now we have tools, like, and I think your guys' app is like the perfect example, like in areas where time can and should be saved, like we are doing it, like outlining, okay, what's what's my like excerpt layout for the week?
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, tying this all back to you know, what role does attention training play in auditions?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um by forcing yourself to take the long road, not only in the way that you prepare on your instrument, but in various other activities in your life.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to have some sort of meditation practice, for example.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um engaging in some other activity, you know, Kathleen, like visual art is another great example.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um drawing, painting.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think we can retrain our brains to become process-oriented again, and in doing so, you will be much more aware and much better equipped to reroute your focus during a performance.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll I'll say for me personally, when the main distractions I was hitting in auditions, it wasn't necessarily that I was getting distracted by like something in my environment or some sort of or like a ton of thoughts that were unrelated to the um audition or the playing itself.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was mostly reactive, like, oh, I didn't like the sound on that note, or oh wait, was that in tune?
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: Or oh, I cracked that, or oh, that one note in that one run like didn't quite come out the way I wanted.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but it is in engaging with the disruption that further disruptions can occur in a round, for example.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, so I'm sorry I'm gonna interrupt you for a second because I wanna I wanna try to I wanna get a very specific example of this, if that's okay.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_05: So you describe this as game changing, you've described changing it or shifting your attention.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_05: Um what does this look like now?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_05: Like this is sort of the thing I was waiting for earlier.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what does this look like now?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_05: Tell us about uh the couple of I would be curious for you to tell us about the couple of auditions we've taken, but especially this most recent one that you took and what because that one felt like it was kind of a it was a bit like as we debriefed, it felt like it was like kind of an important audition in many ways.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_05: Um even though you didn't advance, which is kind of crazy to say, it felt like it was a big moment.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_05: And so I'm just curious for you to kind of take us through what has actually changed in these auditions.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_05: What are you feeling like you can do now that you were struggling to do before what is still similar to what you were doing before?
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_05: Just kind of take us through where you are now.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to speak to the last audition that I took in particular.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and Ryan, you and I talked about this, and I'm gonna tell a brief story that I've already told you because I think it's really important.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: But um a major realization I had is that you have to give yourself permission on stage to feel safe to play as you would in the practice room.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you convince yourself that just because it's a performance, just because there's a panel there, that you have to react or tighten up or like change anything that you've been practicing.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's that's a I that's just a really I think a really common mistake to fall into.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I I I I think you have to feel that way in auditions just over and over again, or at least I had to.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then I had to forge a relationship with self-trust.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: I had to build data during my process that something can happen and it can basically like not matter or not be perceptible because I I trust myself to just get right back on and come in with like 110% of my authentic voice.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: Building self-trust made me feel safe on stage, and then I I went up to play and it did not even matter that I didn't advance.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: It really, it really didn't.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: When I was younger, I used to take it much more personally, like when I was 20.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: I took my first audition, I didn't advance, and I was like, Oh my god, I must be like that.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: I this last audition, I left and I was like, I really felt like myself.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_01: I really felt like I was just at home having fun with the music.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yes, build building data very specifically that I can trust myself.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I'm gonna I'm gonna tell a brief funny story.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um and this story has to do with alongside trusting yourself, accepting that the world and therefore performances are they're inherently sort of chaotic.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: So a couple nights before I was supposed to fly to this audition, I was washing a knife in the sink, a really nice one, a really sharp one, and I cut my finger.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: I cut like the knuckle of the middle finger of my right hand, and it was like just deep enough and like just bleeding enough that I was kind of like freaking out, and I was doing the whole thing, I was holding it above my head, and I was putting pressure and um I knew I knew someone I knew a professional who could help me in this situation.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: This, you know, this was like 8 or 8:30 at night, and I was driving because you know, all the urgent cares were closed, and I was like, I don't think I need stitches, but it's kind of bleeding a lot, and anyway, and I was driving over to get it looked at, and obviously on the forefront of my mind was like, oh my god, like is this gonna affect my playing?
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, is it gonna hurt, you know, while I'm playing?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: Am I gonna need some sort of stitches?
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Am I gonna be able to properly like bend my finger?
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was all these little thoughts were in my brain, and then like a slap of clarity in the face, I realized that I could have like a much worse finger injury, and it would be totally fine.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh, this doesn't matter, I'm still gonna nail it.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, where did that feeling come from?
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And I I think I just it it was such a small thing, and and the injury ended up being very minor, and it it it didn't really need that much attention.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think I I think I just accepted like stuff is gonna stuff is gonna happen.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And you can, you know, I've learned a preventative measure, which is I'm just like not gonna touch knives like close to the audition.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Someone else is gonna handle it.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna wash a plate, that's about it.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um I learned a new preventative measure.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: This but you you you can't like control everything, you can't control everything about the world.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and this this this feeling of trusting myself was so potent and so beautiful, and I I feel like I just carried it into my playing, and it it inspired in me a sense of generosity on stage that had before been hindered by nerves or fear or self-consciousness and distraction.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt like I went on stage and I was just like, I'm just I'm just gonna give this I'm gonna give this music to the panel, and I'm gonna give it back to myself because I worked really hard.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and now I I have what I hope will be a small scar on my finger, and I I I do legitimately I look at it to remind myself of this, and so I do feel like that was meant to happen.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I do feel that every point of of difficulty and and doubt is meant to happen during the process of preparing for this kind of thing or anything, you know?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love that word you said to be generous, and I think you know, sometimes it's just so easy to be so concerned like with yourself and how you're coming across, like to be focused on that.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: But like if you made this shift towards like thinking about, yeah, being generous with your music making and and offering in that moment, would you say that that was like your or I shouldn't put words in your mouth, like what was your what was your main goal of what you wanted to accomplish, you know, and just let's just use this audition specifically.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just curious if you felt like you know you did it.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so very specifically and intentionally, my goal with this audition was to, and this is gonna sound kind of weird, was to not try, not try to sound like something, but just to be, just to be myself.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: And as far as I'm concerned, that's maybe like the largest and most complex overarching um goal of the performer.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's actually really interesting to get to this point.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because when you're younger, you think that the really black and white objective stuff that you have to work on, you think that's hard.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then you enter this whole other arena, you're like a chick hatching from an egg, and you look around and you're like, oh, there is like this huge intangible idea of who I am as a musician, that I need to figure out how to coax it out.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it is a little bit like coaxing a timid animal.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: You can't just grab it and cage it.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: You have to create an environment in which it feels safe to come to you, and that is not a process of efforting or even really doing, it's a process of being, and so that that was my that was my goal, and I think I did it.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: That's a thing.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And when I felt like that animal was trying to recede back in into the bush, I felt like I knew exactly what to do to to bring it back.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's really important.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: But it's a pretty difficult, it's a pretty difficult thing to describe.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think, I think it's a very cumulative process, and you have to kind of, or at least I felt like I had to bang my head against the wall like just a certain number of times, feeling a certain way, feeling like I was putting on some sort of um costume on stage.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And the costume might be very beautiful, and the costume might be very appealing, but there's a certain level of flexibility and spontaneity within your performance plan that you can start to play with if you choose to not put on the costume.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna I'm very curious.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_05: So you've described this a couple of times as for me, it's been this way.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_05: For me, I've had to bang my head up against the wall.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_05: For me, I had to just do it enough times.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_05: Knowing what you know now, do you still think that that's the that has to be the case?
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_05: Or do you think if you knew some of the stuff sooner, do you think you'd have to bang your head up against the wall as many times?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_05: I'm like the answer can be yes.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_05: I'm just kind of curious if you feel like things, if you could go back and do it differently knowing what you know, do you feel like it would do you think it would progress differently, or do you think it would be a similar process?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_05: Maybe you'd just feel differently about that process.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's a really, really good question.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, it's really hard to say.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think I definitely could have saved myself quite a bit of time if I had been presented this information in this way sooner.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but on the other hand, I think that there's a certain level of overall maturity, comfort within yourself, also like emotional maturity that I can't help but feel like you you have to achieve to really confront this specific goal.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um what's interesting is like that's almost um it's actually almost like separate and unrelated to like an audition result.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: I know many people who, you know, well, maybe not many.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: I know a few people who took like one audition when they were 19 and they played like you can play amazingly the thing, like you can play amazingly and resonate with the panel and be in the right place at the right time and win an audition very young, of course.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you can achieve like nirvana and still actually have to like take a bunch of auditions to find the people who are gonna like resonate with your playing.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: But I I suppose my answer is like yes, I think I think I would have saved, I think I would have saved myself time, but I also do think that a certain amount of of time and life stuff, for lack of a better word, has to pass through you for you to be ready to truly be yourself.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I think that's fair.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_05: Um I think it's a you know it's a great way to think about it, and I appreciate that you're very balanced about it.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_05: You're not just like, oh yeah, everything I could have sped run my way there.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_05: It's like, yeah, there's still what I'm hearing from you is there's still some stuff that takes some time to work out sometimes, and that's like okay, and maybe it's serving a larger purpose than auditions, and that's also okay.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_05: Kind of in that vein.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_05: I'm very excited to hear how you will answer this.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_05: What's something that changed that you didn't expect?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_05: Like, what's something that happened as we were working together that you didn't necessarily expect to deal with or expect to change, but you notice has changed?
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really good question.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Honestly, something I didn't expect, and I was really grateful that you both gave me permission to feel this way.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, one of you said to me it's okay for stuff to feel easy.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's okay if this aspect of your preparation feels feels easy.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I thought that growth meant that your preparation process like each time feels harder or like more challenging, maybe in the nuts and bolts way, or like that the practice feels more complicated.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's that's that's sort of what I thought.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: But if you if you like achieve a certain level of fundamental skill in your playing and a certain level of executional skill, you end up not you you those will are like running programs running in the background.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so something that that changed that I didn't expect was the this sort of comfort and acceptance, like, oh, certain things I don't have to like think about as hard.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: And there are some more like organic and perhaps quote unquote easy things that can take the forefront that that I can start to play with in my preparation.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then, you know, as someone who again, when I was younger, I equated difficulty with growth, I guess like very directly, like every variable has to constantly feel more difficult as you get more advanced and get older, and then that and growth are just like on the same line.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like certain things are actually going to feel less difficult, and you won't have to focus on them as hard, so that other things can step forward and like be allowed the room to be explored.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that allowed me a certain ease and grace, not only within my practice, but in performance that I wasn't expecting.
• 43:47
  SPEAKER_00: I love that answer.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's honestly not quite what I expected you to say, but excuse me, what a great answer to that question.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_05: Do you want me to ask the next question so you can fix whatever's going on with your voice?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_05: Uh so I'm keeping An eye on the clock here, and uh I want to just make sure that um Tessa's got a little bit of a time, a hard stop coming up here.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_05: So I I think what I I would love just to hear from you.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_05: This is an open-ended answer, you know what I mean.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_05: Um this is you know, I'm curious.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_05: This is totally your perspective.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_05: We've talked a lot about what we've talked about and what we've helped you with, yada yada, yada.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_05: What I would like to hear from you at this point is just what's something you don't think most people understand about orchestral audition preparation, and what do you think could change for them if they understood whatever this thing is that you think people don't understand?
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm, what a good question.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I think the main thing that people misunderstand is as much as it is designed to look like one, an orchestral audition is not an exam.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um are certain things being analyzed and considered, and are there objective factors to the performance that, like you know, you have to be in time, you have to be in tune, yes.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: But engaging too deeply with the idea that it's an exam beyond those points will not do you any good.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it'll only harm you.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you think of it as a gift, as an offering, as like a snapshot of like this is who I am right now, today.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_01: If and it and if you allow yourself to to revel in the the beauty and the complexity of this is this is who I am right now, take it or leave it, I think that's when you will actually start to play better.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think that's the greatest misconception.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: And then the other aspect of your question was um can you repeat it?
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: What would change?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, you did speak to exactly you did speak to it that they would start to play better, but if there's more that you would want to say, please.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I not only would I think you start to play objectively better because you're you're loosening your grip to the extent that your fundamentals, assuming that they're already in place, your fundamentals will just run in the background.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you'll feel you'll feel emboldened to like actually implement the little nuances that you were excited about in the practice room.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of feeling like we gotta start putting ties, we're running on fumes, you know, we're we're in a state of deprivation, um, you you it allows for abundance, it allows for opportunity when you stop thinking about it like an exam.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, there's there's a lot of work that goes into being able to feel like it's not an exam.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think like if you're a if you're like a very green young student and maybe your fundamentals are like not quite there yet, and you go in with like total abandon and non-planning, you you know, you you might not advance, but it's all about balance between structure, yes.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_01: Hitting certain checkpoints, yes.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: But playing is a gift.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like we get to be alive today, we get to play an instrument.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_01: Let's focus on that, you know?
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_00: Wise words, very well said.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, um, is there anything else that you've got on your mind that you'd like to say or share?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: I guess the main thing on my mind right now is just like gratitude.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: Gratitude for both of you for what I've gotten to experience with you alongside me.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's been really amazing.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I just I I just really appreciate you guys and I'm really excited for anyone who is also currently working with you or who hasn't worked with you yet, because there's a really important um piece of the puzzle that you guys are being very generous with.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um with the people who get to work with you.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm just very grateful.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_05: We're grateful for you too, Tessa.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_05: And I I want to say publicly that I believe one of the biggest assets, like we asked you at the beginning of this session or this this podcast episode, what do you think is an asset to you?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_05: I think your willingness to be open to new ideas, your willingness, the kind of hard work you put in, but the willingness to be challenged, the willingness to um just try a different way, even if it doesn't feel great to be like, I'm gonna try this way, the willingness to challenge yourself, really to look inward and to say, who do I need to grow into?
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_05: I mean, we had so many conversations that didn't have anything to do with auditioning, but they were kind of tangentially related to like how do you see yourself and who do you want to be up there?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_05: And that's where that idea of not trying came from, I remember.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_05: It came from is there a part of you that feels like you have to go up there and you have to try versus I'm okay with who I am?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_05: And and obviously you're sharing that perspective now, but your willingness to challenge those aspects about yourself, your willingness to look inward and do that, I think is if it's not the top of the list of your assets, it is one of the like one of the top three assets you have that I feel like is leading you, has led you to the six success that you've had.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_05: And I have no doubt that it's gonna continue to lead you to future success.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_05: So I want to affirm that in you and say we're grateful to be able to to learn from you and and to see kind of like just get to spend this time with you.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_05: It's very cool for us too.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, thank you.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: I really appreciate you saying that.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah um, and it's fun to be willing.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, you know.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_05: Well, I think that's a good place to stop.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_05: If somebody's checked this episode out, they've really resonated with what you've said, and maybe they kind of want to reach out and tell you how much they enjoy the episode, or to maybe to chat about a concept that you um shared here.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_05: Is there a way that someone could get in touch with you to be able to have that uh connection?
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a website through which I can be contacted, um, the thinking flutist.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I would be more than happy to engage with any discussions or inquiries.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_05: That's all I've got.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_05: Kathleen, any final words?
• 51:34
  unknown: No, my wife is.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, she's done for right now.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_05: So thank you, Tessa, for giving your time.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_05: And um, we just want to say thank you for listening to this episode.
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_05: You, the listener, we really appreciate that you're here with us.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_05: And hopefully this episode was really awesome for you and learn some stuff.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_05: And we will see you in the next episode.