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E18: Hidden Cost of High Achieving with Linda Roszak Burton · Executive Alliance Podcast

• Rebecca Snyder: Welcome. Today I have Linda Rodzick-Burton in the studio. Welcome, Linda, to the program. Linda Roszak Burton: Hello. Hi Rebecca. Good to be here. Rebecca Snyder: it's terrific to have you because there's so many intersections that I want to sort of work through with you today. You have a long history with Executive Alliance, being a Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: a former president and member of the organization, but you also are you're a board certified health and well-being coach, an executive coach. You you have participated and and written about gratitude research, employee engagement. resilience and stress management. And now you're sort of weaving all those threads together to to talk about whether leadership development has really paid enough attention to the physical and mental well-being of leaders and you and you work deeply with women. So tell me what's prompting this evolution for you. Linda Roszak Burton: What prompted it was when we came out of the pandemic, and my executive clients w really revealed that they had suffered as along with everybody else. They had to show up for their teams, who were struggling. So it was something that did not prepare executives to go through a pandemic, right? Okay, that's Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: a given. but what that made me realize was that even the best guidance that a coach can give if someone really has doesn't have the whole picture, their holistic well being, in addition to their executive acumen, that we're not really looking at everything that we can do to support our clients. S so I embarked on a two year journey to First become certified in positive psychology health and well being because that's really the basis of my coaching. and then sat for the national board exam. and I will tell you I never want to study that hard again. That's it. so right, so now I I you know also been paying attention to the the female executives that are resigning because of some health or family issue. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: And we don't have many female executives, right, at the at that the CEO level. So maybe that's more of a gap that we need to pay attention to. Cause I actually I Rebecca Snyder: Well in Go ahead, I'm sorry. Linda Roszak Burton: was just gonna say I actually think women leadership programs have a unique opportunity to really build in a framework that So we we're great with strategic planning and delegation and decision quality and executive presence. And then we go back into the environment that hasn't that that well, I don't I struggle for the words sometimes, but the environment they go back into isn't they aren't developed i in that sustainability factor. So they wanna go back and implement everything they've learned, but the the capacity, the conditioning for them to handle the pressure that they're under, I believe is something we need to pay more attention to. And we put that into our programs. Rebecca Snyder: Well and and I wanted to talk about what that what the cost is. What is happening as a result of this it feels like there's the scaffolding that's being put in place to develop women as leaders, Linda Roszak Burton: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: but it's almost the way you you speak about it almost sounds like it's kind of rotten at the core because there's not the resilience that leaders need. And so what's what's the net effect of that Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: long term? Linda Roszak Burton: Well I wouldn't call I wouldn't refer to as rotten at the core. I think it's a blind spot. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: I the cost is it really falls under risk management in any corporation because you have decision quality that erodes, you have relationships that are riddled with with conflict. and it might be that the conflict is because everybody's totally exhausted and they're not they're not coming to work, not showing up like they really can be their best self. And that has to do with environmental factors, it has to do with the beliefs of the organization, it has to do with the own mindset of the executive. There is their mindset working for them or against them. So the cost is certainly you make a bad decision, is it a million dollar error? And this is for any executives, not just the female. but again, as I said, I think our development programs are uniquely positioned to support what it needs to take all that the that they've learned back and implement it and then sustain it. Rebecca Snyder: So what's uniquely different about women? You talked that you know, the some of the pressures on leadership are gender neutral, but you also in in some of your work have talked about women as an emotional anchor. So Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: what are what are those differences that you're seeing and how do they play out in this in this world? Linda Roszak Burton: Well well, women have the home responsibilities that often fall on them, d because of h our makeup, how we work. we we nurture, that's been documented in all the research that's out there, that wim the success of women in leadership is because they really do nurture relationships. They the care for people. They demonstrate that in how they lead. And so they are always going to try to help out to be there for somebody else. And that emotional load, that that cognitive load that comes with it, ends up coming out somewhere down the road in a in in a in our health and well-being perspective. So I think when why th when I think about health and well-being, I think about okay, yes, mental, emotional, physical, spiritual, personal, but there's also the biomassion metrics that we need to pay more attention to. How is your A1C? Or what you know, where are you on the the blood pressure spectrum? Not to take the place of your physicians, but it the the certain the the board certification that I have, I could work with an individual that has received biometrics from their physician and and they want to work with a health coach. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: So it it c it might mi might come in under executive coaching, it might come in under something that the individual female executive really wants to focus on themselves. So they have this drive to achieve to get where they have landed in their career. That drive can also be focused on, hey, I'm if I'm forty or if I'm fifty, I I really want to make sure that my career goes as long as it can. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. earlier you talked about the program and sort of how you built this this this program to address these specific issues. Can you tell us more about that program itself? Linda Roszak Burton: The pr well the program really is coaching based. So there's always going to be an identification of what the goals are, what what strengths and values they are they bring to the accomplishment of that goal or goals, what the obstacles are, what's the plan B. You know, what's the if if this happens then what do I do? So it's a classic coaching framework. B my methodology is really based on positive psychology, which is based on five elements of flourishing of of well being. It's also based on our s the utilization of our strength. If we focus more on our strengths than our weaknesses. Not that we all don't have them. and then the neuroleadership part that I bring in is you know, our brains view the workplace as a social system. And so Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: we we know the results, we know the bottom line, the data, the the PLs that we want to see see changes in, movement in success in. But we're also human. We're humans in the middle of sometimes a very technology driven environments. So we need to be able to understand how we are responding to things from that perspective. Rebecca Snyder: So in in your work, how do you how do you sort of live what you preach? Linda Roszak Burton: well the hard way, right? Rebecca Snyder: Well, it's Linda Roszak Burton: always. Well f so p so part of how I have gone through my career is that I I learn, right? We all we go to a program, we go to school, we take another class, and I take that learning and I incorporate it deeper by writing about it. and then from that writing I move into teaching it to others or presenting or just incorporating it into my coaching programs where what I've learned fits what the client needs. So it is it's one where I c often default, as many people do, but I have resources now that through the years I've learned I need to lean on. So a resource might be okay I need I need to team up with somebody on this. I'm only thinking with my brain. I need somebody else's brain to to look at where are the gaps. and from a physical perspective, you know, after the pandemic I I couldn't get back into my walking routine, which was out at least two miles a day. And it really wasn't until I started the health and well-being program that I went through the coaching process and identified the that I had to have a specific time allocated, blocked on my calendar, and a backup plan if I couldn't do that at the assigned time. So, you know, we use calendy, right? That was in my calendar. And so there was no reason why I didn't have time unless I overrode that. schedule. But then there was always the plan B. And I would I have people that check in with me. I have coaches that I check in with every month. And we just keep each other focused on the things that we want to do within our careers but also personally. So it takes a it takes a lot of resources. and and I try to employ them as much as possible. But it's still a work in progress. I you know, I haven't achieved all that I want to achieve in terms of my own health and well being. So it's a constant process. What decision am I gonna make today? that is going to be in favor of that progress. And I don't beat myself up anymore. I think that's another thing that we see, Rebecca, with women in particular. We we beat ourselves up, we are our worst critic, we judge ourselves harshly. and and so when we start to do that, we we our brain starts to believe, yeah, you y you're right. and so part of the learning I believe that takes place is how do we f what's the evidence that we should be beating ourselves up the way we are? Really we're we are successful. where it gets difficult is when the environment around us does not does not view us as it should view us. And by that I mean, okay, so let's say we're very confident, we're walking into a meeting, we know our we know our stuff. But there is always the environment of how am I viewed? Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: what I'm am I saying things that are left to be misinterpreted? w and what do I have control over th so I walk out of that meeting feeling like I have said what I wanted to say, I wanted to present what I needed to present in a way that really does demonstrate who I am as an executive. And so that part of that is knowing who we are. Knowing who we are and knowing that sometimes we want to th show up the way other people want us to show up or how we think they want us to show up. And so that you know, that's just a dialogue that we have with ourselves, I believe, for a long time. Rebecca Snyder: in it so it seems what I'm hearing you say is that there's a couple different forces kind of in a in the crucible every time a woman steps into a public space there's Linda Roszak Burton: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: sort of the external Linda Roszak Burton: Mm-hmm. Rebecca Snyder: world that the woman has to distance herself to think, okay, how am I being perceived? You have to know who I you know, who you are as a person and then Be aware of the stories that you're telling yourself and balance that with sort of the evidence to know, all right, are those stories valid? Is that sort of are are those the themes the in in that crucible? And and how do Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. It is. Yes. Rebecca Snyder: you balance all that? That sounds exhausting, layering in that emotional anchor that that many accomplished women are I guess the first responder in their p in in their home life, but also in their professional life. So Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: what are strategies to balance what sounds like an exhausting mess in some ways? Linda Roszak Burton: Well, there are many strategies and I think what what people need to do is how to trust t test them out to see what works for them. It can be d a buffer of fifteen minutes somewhere in your day. one strategy that a client used was they they had this little sticky red dot that they put next to the the ignition in their car. And so when they went to press the ignition they saw the red dot and that dot said two minutes. Two minutes to sit here, don't start the car, no music, and just focus on whether you want to do box breathing, whether you want to focus on gratitude, right? What what am I most grateful for today that that I want to savor a little bit longer? Did I have humor? I mean so in that two minutes there is a great opportunity to to quiet the mind. to lower our blood pressure, to be able to take some really there's a there's a new technique called cyclic sighing. I don't know that I don't agree with the sighing, but it's you Rebecca Snyder: Tell me more. That's Linda Roszak Burton: in so you inhale and then when you don't think you can inhale anymore, you inhale again as deeply as you can and hold that and then slowly release it. So we're filling our lungs up. You know, we do the box breathing, breathe in, hold the sighing is no, breathe in and then breathe in more because we have that capacity. And so that, you know, the oxygen w our blood is oxygenated, we're tapping into the parasympathetic nervous system, rest and digest. and so we've we get to that place where we've we're quieting what we might be ruminating over, we're quieting the the judge in our mind, and just you know, the whole being present in the moment. So that red dot was something that that this client found to be helpful for decades. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: and the other one was I was just reading this study the other day with physicians that the more that they improve electronic medical records, they this formula found that they had sixteen extra minutes a day, which doesn't sound like much. But if you Rebecca Snyder: Until you add it up over time, that sounds like it could. Linda Roszak Burton: Right. If you say, okay, what am I gonna if I have sixteen extra minutes Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: fifteen What do I want to do with it? Where do I put it so I don't s doom scroll the that time away? or or or find that there's such cognitive overload that I go sit at my desk and then I can't remember what I sat there to do, or I start to pick up a paper and I read one page and I can't remember what I just read. So if I had an extra fifteen minutes a day, what would I do for me? that would best help how I'm showing up. And sometimes that that red dot doesn't have to be before you leave. It can be before you walk in your house. Right? Rebecca Snyder: Right. So I wanted to go back, you had you had talked about your walking practice and Linda Roszak Burton: Mm. Rebecca Snyder: how you have it scheduled and you have the backup plan. But in the moment, you know, if it's I think we're both highly scheduled people, so if it's on the calendar, that's it's something's happening. But what goes through your mind when you schedule over it or when in your client's world they are making that conscious choice to kind of push off the self-care. for something that they think is more important and and sort of what's what's going through your head when when that happens? Linda Roszak Burton: You know, I think I I think what we have to build in the is how we can adapt. B if we you know, it's like New Year's Eve, I'm going to the gym three times a week. Well, that's never worked for me. it it's f f first of all d you know, self compassion and self gratitude are two sides of a coin. And so when Rebecca Snyder: Okay. Tell me more about that. What what is that? Linda Roszak Burton: Y yeah, well that's part of Kristen Neff's work, who's done a lot of work in compassion. Because w we have to have some compassion for ourselves. Women can be compassionate for every member of their family, every member of their team, every customer or patient or client that that they touch. But the self it's almost like if I I need to be self-compassionate so that I recognize what I can bring, w how I contribute, connect the dots to what's meaningful in the work I do and the relationships that I have. And and the flip side of that is self-gratitude. So if if I'm be if I'm doing something good for myself, if I substituted watermelon for ice cream, which is my latest kick Rebecca Snyder: It is summer. Linda Roszak Burton: the the self-gratitude is yeah I I am I have this delicious watermelon. I'm grateful that that that produces something that is right down the road or so so it's the little things that build our capacity. And so you've probably read Atomic Habits by James Clear. And he talks about if you want to change, if you want to make an improvement in something, strive for one percent improvement a day, because at the end of the year you're at thirty seven percent improvement from where you started. And so one percent, what can I do today? One percent that that gets me closer to a healthier eating habit? Watermelon, right? or you know, what's one percent that's going to get me to make sure that I'm walking the miles I want to walk this week. And that one percent can be I'm gonna call my girlfriend or a girlfriend, if I'm walking in the evening or early morning before I go to work. So it's it's building on these little habits that be it's like compound interest. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: And when I don't do it Okay, I definitely need to forgive myself because Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: w weren't we were just talking. There's there's responsibilities at home. If you've got school aged children, well we're in the throes of starting back to school. So maybe it is it feels insignificant at the beginning, but it is these small steps, one percent, that helps us build confidence, gets that flywheel going, and to the point where I'm not gonna miss it. We we've built in this habit, stacked a habit on a habit, and it's just now part of part of our day, part of our routine. And if Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Right. Linda Roszak Burton: it goes off I mean when we go on vacation, right? We can give up our routines. So we know we can do it. Rebecca Snyder: So do you feel like you have to know the end result of where you want your you know, your thirty seven percent to be at the end of the year, or do you just start to do the next right thing? Linda Roszak Burton: Well, I suppose it depends on the person's mindset and what has worked for them in the past. So if there is an end goal, thirty seven percent of some development goal, some health and well being goal, then you would f then you would move into that goal setting framework. If it if you don't want that sort of definition, outcome specifically, I I think we still have to ha be ha be able to say, okay, w thirty seven percent of what is going to look different one year from now. So it you know, as a coach I'm always gonna lean into the goals. If the if if you can put something up twelve months t some a target up on the wall for where what you want to hit twelve months from now, your mindset is going to be the predictor of accomplishing that. So for me the goal the goal frameworks work. I I and I and I You know, it's it's sometimes it's not even willpower, it's not wish it's not hopeful thinking. It r it might be one constant activity, one constant behavior that you have that you feel is going to get you to that end result in twelve months. So I'm I'm all for the definition, I'm all f I'm You know, when we're able to envision in our mind, in our brain, what it is we want to accomplish, w we begin to pick things up in our environment that we have never noticed before or we haven't noticed enough of. So even if you don't write it down, I believe w whatever we can envision for ourselves, we begin to have signs, see signs that we want more of this or we don't want to take make that decision, we want to go right versus left, that sort of thing. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. So I wanted to go back to gratitude because you've done a lot of research on gratitude. I feel like you've written a book on gratitude as well. Am I remembering that correctly? Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah, Gratitude Journal, right. It's a book, it's a journal, it's a workbook. It's a combination. Rebecca Snyder: So tell me what sparked your interest in in researching gratitude to that level? Linda Roszak Burton: Well, so as I continued to keep up with the research in positive psychology there is the science of gratitude started becoming published in academia. And so I thought I was a grateful person. I certainly considered myself to be. But as again, as I started to learn the research, read the research, start writing about it and incorporating it into my coaching where it was appropriate, I I really I I I I am the poster child for how a grateful brain is a rewired brain. I said that in my TED talk. personally what was happening was that I lost my younger sister when she was forty-one to breast cancer. Rebecca Snyder: That's all right. Linda Roszak Burton: And I never journaled, thank you. I'd never journaled before, had no interest in it, but I did start when she passed. And there was a birthday anniversary where I sat down to journal and I decided to look back at my past entries and they were dark. They were Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: not healthy. And Of course I could have told you, Rebecca, that I was grateful she was no longer suffering. I was grateful I had her in my life for forty one years. But that gratitude just went skin deep. And so I think because I had really studied and embodied the science and began to practice it and teach it beginning to notice things in the environment that there was that aha moment when I w I I'm sitting in my chair in my bedroom and the the term gratitude heals came to me, which is the c title of the journal. And it was that aha moment where it really helped me begin to recontextualize my grief. I still grieve but it was a a way of feeling hopeful. It was a way of minimizing the the dark side of the grief. and so that to me was the process that I went through and and from a very personal purpose, if I can share that knowledge with someone else and it can improve or transform their life, then you know, I'm living I'm living a very blessed life if I can do that. So that's why I keep doing the research. We're now doing it internationally with two other one one college in Australia and one in the UK, really looking at how gratitude helps as a stress management technique, as a way of retaining employees and and having them really satisfied in the job that they're doing. So Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: and then and that leads into the whole culture conversation. So what started from Rebecca Snyder: Well before we before we get to the culture conversation, I wanted to go back to gratitude as healing because gratitude can feel very superficial at some points. And you used gratitude to kind of help you work through a really dark place Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: in in very, very deep areas. So what were some examples of that gratitude? You had said, you know, you could say you were grateful to have her for 41 years, but w what were those what's an example of the gratitude that really helped you shift your thinking about and get out of that space? Linda Roszak Burton: it was really looking at what I had in front of me first. that so there's a there's a gratitude technique that I use that I t teach a lot called grati grateful processing. And it take a look at a dark spot in our life. It's nothing to do with guilt or shame. It you know, it might be divorce where where you look at what did I go through and how did I go through that. So the grateful processing is very much aligned with post-traumatic growth. where we look at what are the domains in our life that helped us get through. And so one of the first things I started to look at were, well, who are the resources that I had in my life that are there helping me? Have I appreciated them enough? And certainly when you're going through the throes of grief, it you know, it's very narrow. But but I was able to kind of broaden my scope. And then to actually think about, well, what how did I s how am I surviving this? What are those strengths that And that's part of the post traumatic growth. I I never thought I could go through something like this, but I did. And let me let me really identify the strengths that allowed me to do that and the relationships that supported me and any sort of spiritual beliefs that I had. So it's it's multiple domains as I call them that s just start to come into a clearer focus. So if I was here at that point and I'm here today, what who and what? You know, sometimes with people it's music, sometimes it's sermons, sometimes it's a very experiential event that they go to. So it it could be people could start at at different places than I did, but I would I would start with what's right in front of me that I recognize in myself. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. And I think that does play in you I stopped you when you were going to go to organizational cultures, but the idea of gratitude and knowing your strengths and knowing yourself, but then you're also walking into this system. So how does and and women leaders I think are are walking into systems that are sometimes set up for their failure. in that Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: the expectations are high, the family pressures are high, and there's not a lot of flex. And so it feels like sometimes women get into this headspace of needing to be indispensable or needing to achieve at a much higher level. And I'm interested in in sort of that intersection between the organization and the culture and what women leaders are walking into. Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Well, what you've described is is very Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Linda Roszak Burton: complex and if if there is a diverse group of women and I do work with a tremendous diversity, there's even added layers of that. And so again I think it starts with who we are. if Maybe it's not gratitude, maybe it's kindness, maybe it's whatever the value is that you feel helps you make your decisions, is really where I think we start paying more attention to. And so w w when you think about an a a a leader that's truly inspired you, and I ask anybody that's looking at this podcast. To think about somebody who has truly inspired you and what was it about that person? you know, we might want to be just like them, but there but to get to the essence of what we think was what so inspiring helps us decide w what's what's our go to. So if if let's just say gratitude, so I I my A friend of mine was on a board of an organization. She gave my journal to every member of the board. The CEO actually had it. He th he said he threw it in the in his drawer. And one day, I don't even know how long after he received it, he decided, let me take it out. And And he he tr he started to journal, again, not a journaler, and there's other things we can do besides journaling, but he began to practice through that journaling technique, And he said it changed his life and he wanted his every senior leadership member of his team to experience that in some way so that they could then cascade that to their teams. Rebecca Snyder: So how did that journaling that gratitude journaling change his leadership directive? It changed its style. He made sure that everyone else was doing it, but how did it change what he was doing in practice? Linda Roszak Burton: brought a different set of eyes to everything. Right? So you can say I'm really, you know, employees are the most important thing in the world. And we have we have great rewards and recognition programs. I'm not poo pooing them. They serve a very good purpose. But it it's the it's actually I think it's the prescription that I write for everybody. One is what is the experience or the behavior that you are grateful for? And it can be significant or it can be what some people might say, okay, nice to have. and then what is it that's meaningful about that behavior or the experience? Meaningful to to me, the person that's expressing gratitude. and how have I benefited another another line on the thank you note if you will. And then what potential sacrifices have been made on my behalf or the in or the organization's behalf. So it is more than hey high five, great job that report, you nailed it, all good. But until we are able to specifically reflect on the meaning or the values or the strengths or the sacrifices that were made it it stays superficial. And and I I think the also the other thing that that I saw this CEO and others recognize is that not everybody wants that public expression of gratitude. Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: s people are going to some people are going to want it just one on one, eyeball to eyeball. Some people are really going to feel ev that deepest sense of of gratitude if I see somebody's handwriting. So it again, it is knowing how your employees want to be recognized, and then being as specific as possible, connecting the dots, right? So I you know, I that wasn't your patient, but I saw that you went out of your way to help so and so. 'cause they look tired. I had one one individual that said to a to a coworker, Go get a c go get some hot coffee, go get some hot cocoa. you're tired, you need a break. I I'll I'll take over for for a minute. And so that sense of gratitude that comes out of that is then reciprocated. And that's that's where the culture just begins to strengthen that culture of gratitude or that that demonstration of a value of gratitude. So Rebecca Snyder: So in your experience have you seen that snowball effect? I mean, 'cause it sounds very organic that you have an individual that's Linda Roszak Burton: Is Rebecca Snyder: practicing that and that's how organizational culture changes. Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah, you're you're right on, Rebecca. Right on, because it is contagious. i the reciprocity is is a an outcome, a natural outcome of of receiving some expression of gratitude. The the contagion, every emotion is contagious. negative emotions are contagious and they stay with us longer. positive emotions are quite fleeting. So if somebody does express gratitude or does something kind for me. I get that what what they call this upregulation. but it's fleeting. Barbara Frederickson at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill has a an emotions lab and she talks about w her top ten positive emotions, gratitude obviously isn't one of the is one of them. But she said, you know, if you see a beautiful sunrise in the morning, that awe might last for ninety seconds and then it's gone. Right? So if we know that negative emotions are stronger, then how do we How do we increase the number of positive emotions that we become aware of? And this is j this isn't you know, I'm not gonna go around today and just smile at at ten people and think, okay. I'm I'm I did it. It Rebecca Snyder: Yeah. Linda Roszak Burton: is it is i there's this ratio that we talk about. So for every negative experience, conversation, decision, interaction, I need to look at how do I offset that by at least three really healthy, positive, engaging connections, conversations, discussions. Because if they're so fleeting, we kinda have to build that reserve. because we're always going to have the negative. We're you know, we wanna we walk into the office in the morning with the best of intentions and the text message or the the email or somebody walking in our office just shatters those best intentions. and and that's another thing that I like to incorporate into that 15 minutes or even that two minutes what what did go well? Even if it was, you know, I was able to laugh at something I did. And I'm actually coming out of hope I can't I hope you don't mind me plugging this, I'm coming out with an Rebecca Snyder: Please. Linda Roszak Burton: ebook called What Went Well Today because w we are inundated with what's not working. but all of my clients, all of my coaching clients have always said the one thing that they one thing they will remember from me is that that I was always able to say, Well, w what did go well? today because inevitably something has. So we kind of Rebecca Snyder: And so Linda Roszak Burton: open that aperture. Rebecca Snyder: Well and and a lot of the things that we've talked about are happening in that, you know, fifteen minute meditative time or that two minute these scraps of time. Can you relate how that w really integrates with the actual work? I mean, this this is so interpersonal, but you're trying to get things Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: done as well, like the work of the workplace. How do you reconcile those those two things? And then also how do you women are often perceived in the workplace as being emotional or being to something. So how do you Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: make sure that you're not going too far into the woo, I guess is the best way to put it. Linda Roszak Burton: So so your first question was, what was your first question again? To work. Rebecca Snyder: Well, relating it to work. Like the workplaces have things to get done and so Linda Roszak Burton: So if you if you really want to begin practicing the science of gratitude, and you find whatever the techniques are, and there are many, you're th this is where your neuroscience comes in because we have built these default pathways ever since we started thinking for ourselves, right? And so w w we're going to experience something and we're going to default to The well ingrained neural pathway in our brain. And so when we start to introduce a new way of thinking, we have to override that default. And so the more that we practice overriding that default, this went really bad today, but this went really well. The more that we travel that neural pathway, the stronger it gets, we actually know. that we can that we can grow dendite dendrites in our brain that where the synapses take place. So it is if you can if anything, if you can envision an a stimulus coming down a neural pathway, it can default or we can stop, reframe, and and go into a a new pathway that we're we're trying to look at things in a different light. Sometimes I use that terminology. and sometimes it might be how how can I reframe this because the default that I'm so used to is hurting me, hurting my health, it's not serving me well, it's not serving the organization well. And so that can happen just i within our own things thinking process. And then if we bring that to our team, if we begin to look at, you know what, last quarter was was a real struggle. But how did we get through that? Even if we didn't get to the results that we wanted to, how did we get through that really difficult quarter? And that helps us look at, well, yeah, we really employed Whatever the fill in the blank, right? And so that then teaches us, well wait a minute, through the di most difficult times we were able to see something that really supported us. How do we take that into this next quarter? It's Rebecca Snyder: Hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: not pie in the sky, it's it's it's not make believe and it's not, well, let's just cross our fingers and hope. it is dil deliberate focus, deliberate thinking and and resetting mindsets that help that helped change the culture. And and Rebecca Snyder: Well, and it it feels also so that like you could have reframing to find really specific, tangible things that you can use to change the outcomes of what you're trying to accomplish. Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: So more than just than culture, which is a big piece, but the outcomes of the work that you're doing. Am I getting that right? Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And and think about how much healthier your employees are going to feel. you know, we can get into the whole psychological safety and all that, but when a leader demonstrates that they can reframe, that they can work with the work with problems and solutions that recognize what is going well, what strengths came to support that, what values were were they embodied then That is part of that ratio, right? So w we're always gonna be unhappy about something that didn't work, right? Rebecca Snyder: Right? Linda Roszak Burton: it it it is that sometimes it's that introspection, it's that reflection with many executives have very little time to do. and they become the role model. They then can become that inspiring leader that their team members will say I w I will work for her as as long as I can. And they and they stay. Rebecca Snyder: And the second part of that question was, you know, how women the perception of women in the workplace as, you know, nurturing, emotional, empathetic people that are really good at those at people skills but not great always at sort of the hard pieces of business. How do you think this plays into it? Because w I've just been interested in in like leading it to results in some ways. Linda Roszak Burton: Mm, many factors. of course the environment has a lot to do with it. so number one, I think we need to all have sponsors. Sponsors that know who we are, that know our talents, that know our skills, that recognize the soft skills are truly the leading skills that we want to have to get to the hard skills. that can speak up for you when you're not there, that will open doors for you s so it really is back to the resources, back to who who do I need to know in my organization? Who do I need to network with? What relationships do I not have today that that I think are going to be very crucial for my success as a leader but also as responsible for the results of the organization. And so finding those sponsors and being a sponsor for others I think is one way of supporting women. And and the sponsors The sponsors can be men or women, but let's face it, if a man is going to put a woman's name through that carries a heavier weight. So how Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: do we work within that culture? what control do we have within that culture to make sure that the value of our emotions is in the forefront versus looking at a way of hindering us. Rebecca Snyder: So what do you think when you when you say look at what's in your control, what things do you think are in women's control that they can use their strengths but also be attractive as sponsorees, I guess, to to others? Linda Roszak Burton: Mm. I think we need to look at our language. I I think we need to look at what's the mindset that we have that comes out in ways that won't doesn't exhibit our strength that what comes out is that we don't have the self confidence or the self esteem that we need and that we would we could work on that. So I think language has a lot to do with it. So what we think determines how we feel and how we feel determines how we behave. Or what we say. Rebecca Snyder: Could you could you share an example of kind of it feels like reframing, so when you talk about language, can you give us an example? Linda Roszak Burton: So if I'm w if I'm s going to be res presenting something, right, that I need to show what my leadership has demonstrated. But in the back of my mind, I'm thinking, Yeah, but you know what, I'm really not this good. Then how we present is not going to have the tone, it's not going to have the body language, it's not going to have the eye contact, it's not going to have the the composure that says confidently, here's what has been accomplished. And so one of the things that we practice often is how do I want to feel at the end of the meeting? If I want to feel confident and strong and d demonstrating who I am as a leader, then what's the mindset that I need to have before I even walk into that room? That's one way. Rebecca Snyder: I love that. Linda Roszak Burton: That's one approach. Rebecca Snyder: So I I wanna go back to your time with Executive Alliance, because you were a a past president, you've been with the organization for for a long time. What do you think w accomplished women need from one another now that you weren't really talking about when you were active in Executive Alliance? Linda Roszak Burton: I think that sponsorship is part of it. if I don't believe we had that conversation back then. I mecause I I love that there's still that advocate and educate theme for for executive alliance and so that advocating I think needs to be more clearly defined. W Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: so so Margaret Hayes and I worked on the strategic plan drawing a blank on we had a great team that was supporting us. and we we know that we can advocate in in Annapolis, we can advocate in you know, locally, but how do we advocate for each other when we're in a public setting, when we're in a a a company meeting, and and to have it become second nature. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Linda Roszak Burton: And and and ask ourselves, if I'm not doing that today, what's holding me back? I it could be because I think they're smarter than me and I don't want I don't want that. I want to be seen as the smartest person in the world, but on the side I'm thinking I'm really not the smartest person in the world. s so it's really looking at the individual women that we have in our lives, that we associate with, and really identifying what are their strengths, how do I accent that? How do I recognize that? how do I have their back? Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: And I mean, you know, in the military there is a saying, I've got got your back, got your six, I'm at your six. I it's that way of feeling like Yeah, I'm I'm s I'm doing things the way I believe they need to be done, but what support do I have that's gonna even bolster the messages that I'm trying to get across? I don't think we should do it alone. It's too much Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: pressure. Rebecca Snyder: Right. So bringing women together and n not just Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: having those strong relationships, but knowing their strengths and consciously bringing them forward. Linda Roszak Burton: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. 'Cause we have if we're able to have a conversation about our strengths and how we use them and what the results were, then w we begin to just see ourselves and others more deeply. Yeah. Rebecca Snyder: I think that's that's so important. And one last thing, when you see women coming up, women just entering their workforce the workforce now, you have decades of experience in in this world. What do you hope for them coming up? Linda Roszak Burton: I had a conversation with a young college grad just the other day. it really is how how can you best know who you are? it has to come down to to knowing who we are. And okay, w so someone young in their career, they're still trying to figure that out. They're still trying to figure out, you know, do I really like what I've studied f you know, in college or what I'm trained in. and and so part of knowing who you are is even being able to say, e yeah, I I'm I'm I don't see myself doing this for the rest of my life, even though I've invested so much into it. and really taking that step back and doing an inventory. And I start with values, I start with strengths, I start with the the our mental fitness, w what Rebecca Snyder: Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: are the mindsets? and and and in addition to that strength conversation, I also try to find out where are they overusing those strengths. Rebecca Snyder: Mm. Tell me more. Linda Roszak Burton: Well, because when we overuse our strengths they bec they they they work against us. So I think a conversation we had about, you know, what's gotten executive women to where they are today? So let's use drive. High achiev being a being a high achiever has gotten them to where they are today. And when that high achiever is overused, it works against us. it works against us because we're not able to really look at w w what else do I need to be a pay attention to. If I've achieved a goal that I wanted to achieve in my career, then that doesn't mean you stop driving, it doesn't mean you stop trying to achieve, but overachieving usually becomes an obs an an obsessive way of thinking and that and that could you know, there's a term obsessive passion where you destroy relationships. Yeah, it was it Rebecca Snyder: I've never heard of obsessive pass obsessive passion. What is that? Linda Roszak Burton: well, it's harmonic or it's obsessive. So people are passionate, right? and and some people are s passionate and they're so passionate they get loud. And it's hard to interpret that sometimes. I've seen this in really passionate people and what they are doing in their in their work, in their profession. And because they're so passionate, it comes out as loud and but that's not to be misunderstood by somebody that's obsessed over their passion and relationships fall by the wayside. It's you know, I've had one leader that was so obsessed with being right that as soon as that up that leader walked in, people scattered. th because there was there was certainly no respect. It was my way the highway. these are my demands. And there was no insight into the resources that this leader needed to be able to continue to do the good work they were doing. So it's a there's a there's a researcher out of Montreal. that really to d identify these two areas of passion, harmonious and obsessive. And so we can you know, sometimes we need to s ask ourselves, wait wait a minute, what what side of the passion formula am I working from today? Even being loud is not wrong. Rebecca Snyder: Right. Mm-hmm. Linda Roszak Burton: If it but being obsessed with what you're passionate about. I mean, look at some of the greatest athletes in the world. obsessed over the passion for the sport, for excelling, and n and no relationships that they had at the end. So a hundred Rebecca Snyder: Mm. So knowing yourself is is the critical piece Linda Roszak Burton: percent. Rebecca Snyder: and you do that and just thinking through you by looking at your values, your strengths, your mental fitness. How do you and and I think also a little bit of dash of knowing that you can change. So how do you feel like you're still getting to know yourself? Linda Roszak Burton: Mm. Yeah, all the time. I mean for that young career person, go out five years. So w how do you what do you see yourself doing in five years? and walk backwards. For myself, yeah, yes. always because I I th w I think we're all continually learning. We all wanna be better. We all wanna know our lives matter, we all want to be the best person we can and leave this world without any regret. So we can have a conversation long before we get to that point. but it really is w how do how do we want w somebody was saying the other day, when you wake up in the morning, what are the three things that you want to accomplish? And and you know, it you we've got our we all have our go to list, right? But but but when we put true substance to what it is we wanna three things we wanna accomplish in one day, we kinda set that again, envision this in our mind, w we'll gravitate back to that, even though, you know, we walked in the office and things blew up. But that it's that mindset before the meeting, before we walk into work, before we walk into the house, that that really helps us discover where else I can where else can I show up today that is gonna be o I'll be able to check off that list. Rebecca Snyder: This has been such a great conversation. I really appreciate Linda Roszak Burton: cute. Rebecca Snyder: you spending time with me today and and talking through well being, gratitude and and how we can all become more resilient leaders. So thank you Linda Roszak Burton: Hmm. Rebecca Snyder: so much. Linda Roszak Burton: Thank you, Rebecca. I really appreciate the opportunity to connect with you.