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Richard Dawkins & Brendan O'Connor: The Rights, the Wrongs and What We All Assume || SLP362 · The Speak Life Podcast

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_06: Well, hello and welcome to the live cast.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_06: My name is Paul Feasy.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_06: Today Glenn and I are going to be chatting a little bit about a recent interview that Richard Dawkins did with Brendan O'Connor in an Irish radio, in which they discussed an old tweet of Richard's which he tweeted back in 2014 regarding Down syndrome.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_06: It caused a bit of controversy at the time, but it's caused another little bit of controversy right now.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_06: Must apologize because we had a few technical difficulties when recording the live cast.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_06: Took us three attempts to actually go live and get the sound sorted.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_06: Hopefully, what you hear on this recording will largely be fine.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_06: I don't think any of the issues crept in.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_06: But uh apologies now if uh they do.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_06: Just to say, of course, if you're enjoying the Speak Life podcast, please do give us a subscribe on whatever podcatcher you're using.
• 0:53
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• 1:00
  SPEAKER_06: So now over to Glenn and myself as we chat a little bit about Richard Dawkins and his controversial tweet.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: We want to discuss uh these issues that have been rolling around since 2014 when Richard Dawkins made those uh famous tweets.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Uh when uh t tell tell us the background to them.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_03: What was happening?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: What what made Richard Dawkins say such a terrible, terrible thing?
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so um in 2014 uh on Twitter someone had uh a lady had said, I'm not if I found myself pregnant with a child who had Down syndrome, I genuinely don't really know what I'd do.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_06: And Dawkins had this quite blunt response um where he said, abort it and try again.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_06: He said it would be immoral to bring it into the world and cause more suffering.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_06: Um which caused the storm at the time um but then came up again the other day in this interview with Brendan O'Connor.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_06: Um they talked about a number of things, but he raised it, Brendan O'Connor.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_06: He wanted to talk to him about it.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_06: Um quite you know, relatively objectively, he wanted to talk to him about it, um, even though Brendan O'Connor himself has a child who has Down syndrome.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_06: So he kind of said, Look, I'm not having an emotional conversation with you here, I'm just trying to talk about the issue.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_06: Um and so yeah, it kind of came into light again.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_06: And so because those comments came to the surface again, uh Dawkins' name was kind of flying high on Twitter.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_03: So what we want to do is we want to have a look at the full conversation or parts from the full conversation, because I don't know how you first came across this interview with Brendan O'Connor, but for me it was on Twitter.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_05: Yep.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_03: And there was a two-minute video that RT had done of the interview cut together, and um and it it it brought the the stark horror of Dawkins' position to light.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: But what was left out of that video is also worth talking about.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um and the run-up to that interview is also worth worth talking about.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_03: And the furori around that interview is also worth talking about.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: So we we don't want to just react to the the Twitter outrage as delicious as it is to have a quick shot of splenetic kind of tweet juice, just, you know, straight straight cortisol into the bloodstream.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_03: As delicious as that might be, uh, we want to take things apart a little bit, see some of the context for what Richard Dawkins was saying, and then see um and then see if um if what Dawkins says actually makes sense on its own terms.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: And if it doesn't make sense, what are the terms in which we want to think through these these issues of of life and death?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um but I think the first thing we want to do is have a look at something that happened um early on in the in the interview, and we really recommend that people have a look at the full interview, which uh is on the RTE website.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: The link is in the description box here on YouTube.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_03: And it's 20 minutes long, and they have a wide-ranging conversation because Richard Tawkins thought he was going to be discussing his book.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas Brendan O'Connor played Columbo, and then this kind of you can imagine Brendan O'Connor in the in the Mac and the cigar saying, Oh, just one last thing.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_03: Just just um so um but they had a conversation about science, and they had a conversation about religion more generally, and I think it brings to light some important issues that then um get discussed later on.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: But let's let's have a look at uh at the first clip where uh Richard and um and Brendan have a chat.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: I I know, and it's treaded through the book, uh which another one of your great themes, which is I suppose to to put it colloquially, you're not a big fan of religion.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think at all that we saw an awful lot of like good people actually get great comfort in faith during these very painful times?
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't noticed that.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I don't deny that people can get comfort from faith.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: You can even get comfort from something that's false if you believe it sincerely enough.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that is possible, yes.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think if you if you're gonna make a calculus on on the quality of somebody's life, if would you say that like whatever gets them through the night, if it helps them to have a better quality of life, that then that's okay for them?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Within limits, I would say that.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: But I I do I mean I as a scientist, I do value truth, and therefore um I'm not sure that I'm that enthusiastic about getting you through the night if you are right thoughts.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not you're not taking any uh easy shortcuts to happiness, I I can see.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, not I think there's a there's a greater happiness to come from understanding the truth.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_03: I found that fascinating in in terms of you know, the ancient Greeks used to speak of the triad of goodness, truth, and beauty.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_03: And this conversation orbits around goodness, truth, and beauty in in so many different ways.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_03: And and as this idea of you know, whatever gets you through the night, whatever leads to the greatest happiness, you would think that that was Dawkins' morality.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_03: It certainly that certainly seems to be the calculus he brings to the abortion question.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um the greatest happiness of the greatest number, and if if someone disables, you know, causes greater suffering in the world, then let's eliminate them.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um But when it comes to truth, Dawkins is like, oh no, there's a higher there's a higher value than just happiness.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_03: And we we actually sacrifice happiness on the altar of this higher truth, you know, this this this higher cause that is that is called that is called truth.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so and so and you and you think, well, if Dawkins is willing to sacrifice happiness for the sake of truth, why isn't he willing to sacrifice happiness for the sake of goodness?
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um But he doesn't he doesn't do that.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_03: He's you know he wants to be a rationalist, um, and he doesn't he doesn't want false comfort comfort.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and then I mean and then interestingly he does say that there is a greater happiness to be had that comes through the truth.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_03: But then again, you know, if we bring that through to the you know aborting a disabled child debate, then wouldn't there be greater happiness to be had from actually following goodness and not following expedience?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that was that was interesting, and and there's a broader discussion that happens in the 20-minute interview, in which again Dawkins seems to think that there is a beauty as well to science, and a beauty and an awe to um following the scientific method and discovering more about the world around us.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_03: And it and it seems like um Dawkins kind of gives a free pass to truth and he gives a free pass to beauty.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: And then when he's asked about goodness, he's like, well, you know.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_03: He then boils it all down to to happiness, which is um which is fascinating.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Christoph Keating is in the the chat, and uh yeah, he says Brendan O'Connor was remarkably restrained in this interview.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_03: He showed quite clearly that Dawkins was inconsistent.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um He says uh this this interview is probably the most comeback that Dawkins is liable to have had since he was he since he last debated John Lennox.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_03: So And certainly people have enjoyed the fact that Dawkins was made to look foolish, haven't they?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_06: Um well yeah.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_06: I'm sure, yeah.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, yes, they have.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_06: But I think the interesting thing was it it's not so much like it it for me at least, as I watched it or listened to it, it's not that he just looked silly, you know.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_06: But it was clear he just didn't have anything to back up what he thought.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_06: Which was which was just so fascinating from someone who spent his whole life ba basically saying, you know, or so much of his la the last 15 years at least, be you know, banging on about Christians and lack of evidence and you know just believing you know whatever you want to believe, and uh there he was doing exactly the same thing, and he got completely caught out.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's like he was caught with his trousers down, sort of, and had no comeback really against things.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, not only did he have no real intellectual comeback, so you you can be in a position where you've got the intellectual comeback, but when you're faced with someone who has a Down syndrome child, you might be a bit more like cautious about what you say.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_06: But he was in the position where he was obviously feeling a bit cautious about what to say to Brendan O'Connor, but he also didn't have anything really to say.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_06: He just kind of had to back off on it.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_06: And yeah, I mean he did look.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I mean, I I doubt he came away from that thinking, that went quite well.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_03: He's uh I think I think by the end of this uh interview he put the phone down.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, well that has a big mistake.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_06: That happened in the middle of the interview, didn't he?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_06: Asked him about something and he got cut off.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_03: That's true.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_06: It sounded like Dawkins had put the phone down.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_06: He said, Oh, I thought I'd offended you and you left or something, but I thought he'd left as well.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, but I think I think he underestimated Brendan, and I think Brendan Brendan did a whole Colombo on him.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_06: It was it was totally not not being familiar with Brendan O'Connor, I don't know really what type of show it is generally, so I don't know what Dawkins thought going into it.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_06: If he did just think I'm here largely to change, you know, is it just kind of a bit of like sitting on the sofa with Graham Norton just talking about my book though, um without realizing that he might be slightly slightly ambushed on something he did six or seven years ago?
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_03: Brendan Brendan did the ambush absolutely brilliantly.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_03: Should we have a look at um this is the first of three clips about how how Brendan raises this issue with uh with Richard Dawkins?
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_03: It is quite delicious.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, I'll get back to the book in one second.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Can I ask you about one other thing?
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because and I and I'll be completely honest with you and say I have a kind of a an interest in this myself.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I promise you I'm not taking any offense by it or anything.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just curious about it, okay?
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to ask you about the you got involved in a Twitter interaction with a woman who said she would be faced with a real ethical dilemma if she became pregnant with a baby with Down syndrome.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: You tweeted, abort it and try again.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I'm sorry you're speaking to somebody who who did bring someone like that into the world, okay, but we let's put that aside.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I'm interested in how how do you think it is immoral to bring someone with Down syndrome into the world?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think that once you have a child with Down syndrome, you love it, you cherish it, everybody does.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's well known.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't deny that for one single moment.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: But before it's born, the vast number of people who take an amniocentesis and and is diagnosed with uh with Down syndrome, as a matter of fact, do abort it.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: This is just a fact.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in I think in Denmark.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_03: Lots going on there.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_03: Lots going on there.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_03: Including um Richard Dawkins saying, once you have a child with Down syndrome, then don't do anything with it.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I'm looking at that sonogram.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_03: Looks like I've got a child with Down syndrome.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what do you mean once you have a child?
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um at what point does the child gain moral value?
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Well, he then goes on to clarify, once the child is born, the child now has moral value, which is a very arbitrary, you know, bestower of moral value.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: The birth canal bestowing all moral value.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: But then Dawkins does what I think is uh a very significant thing in that he he brings up what we in fact do.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and actually, I mean that's probably that's probably the point where he was strongest.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_06: In that he just kind of said, look, what I'm saying is no different to what goes on.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_06: You know, and so the statistic is something like 90% upwards of people who have the the amniocentesis test who discover a child with Down syndrome abort the child.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_06: And so that you know, there is a strange irony that you know, so many people, let's say 90% 90% and upwards of people are outraged by the kind of thing Dawkins has said.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_06: But yet 90% and upwards of people would do exactly what Dawkins has said in that situation because they are doing that.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_06: That's the fascinating thing.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_03: So his big problem was like he said the he said the quiet bit out loud.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: You know, he's he said he said the thing, he brought into the light the thing that we already do, and everyone's just outraged.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_03: Everyone is outraged.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like everyone is making that moral calculation.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_03: They probably they they don't articulate it in those terms.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_03: Because you can't articulate it in those terms without being horrified, as the whole world has been.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: The whole world is horrified by saying what the whole world is actually doing.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_06: Um We live in a very strange it's a strange and it's that cognitive dissonance, isn't it?
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_06: Of we live in a society which admirably looks at people who are differently abled and says, hey, we need to make society more accessible for the people, you know, we need to be less discriminatory because these people are not less valuable than us.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_06: Um and you know, they even they even bring things, you know, it's not just kind of like they're there and they have a value, it's just they do bring something as well to the table.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_06: Um but not before they're born.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_06: Like in the womb.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_06: Between children with disabilities in the womb and children who don't have disabilities, because you can abort a child with a disability up to term.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_06: Even in the UK.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_06: Whereas you couldn't if it was a child who who had no kind of recognized disability.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_06: Um So it's just this weird thing go going on in our society where we're saying everybody's valuable, you know, we we love everybody and we want to include everybody.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_06: But actually, before they're born, not so much.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_06: It's a really strange thing.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um Christoph Keating has has just said, uh, how many people say privately the sort of thing Dawkins wrote on Twitter, the pressure to abort is high but unknown.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, of of course it's it's high.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's massively high.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and the and the pressure comes from all sorts of quarters, um, you know, from family as well as you know, the medical profession as well, as well as, you know, the the the sense that Dawkins articulates that this child will cost us, you know, as as a family and as a society, weighs on people.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, to the point where Dawkins is is willing to say it's uh it's immoral.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: At least in 2014 he said it was immoral.
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_06: He did back on back off on that, didn't he, and said let maybe that was too strong, let's put aside immorality.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_03: But that is the kind of pressure that is already on people.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_03: But one inconsistency I I thought was, you know, Brendan then said, Um, you know, I d I don't want to take issue with anyone's choice in those matters.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_03: You know, like if if anyone if any parent does um choose to abort, that is their choice, and I don't I don't judge that.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's inconsistent.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: Like if we're gonna judge his words, why don't we judge the actual actions?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_06: It's like he's just said that you could do this.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_06: Whereas he said uh but then there's the actual act of doing that.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_06: And it does seem that that's being given the let off.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, what's what's worse?
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, talking talking about it or doing it.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah, I I I think we've all got a consistency problem on this.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_03: And and Dawkins actually reveals it by saying this is what people are doing.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: And it's not just amniocentesis, whatever the plural of amniocentesis is, it's these non-invasive prenatal tests that are coming in that are so simple.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: You just do a blood test.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: You don't, you know, it's there's nothing invasive about it.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_03: And in all the countries in which the NIPTs are brought in, then we have bought them at ever higher rates.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_03: And so I mean Dawkins is just saying what we do.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: So why the outrage?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I mean okay, that there should be outrage, but there should be a more thoroughgoing outrage about about the actions and not just the words.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um But then in this this next clip, um, let's have a look at the basis on which Dawkins makes that judgment.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Why does he say that it is immoral to bring such a child into the world?
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll see that it's it's consequentialism, it's it's utilitarianism.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_03: Let's uh let's have a look.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: But why is it immoral not to abort it?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh that was probably putting it a bit too strongly, but um given that uh the um the amount of suffering in the world uh probably does not go down, probably does go up uh compared to having another child who doesn't have Down syndrome, then that's what I meant.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: I want to stress over and over again that people, I was of course not suggesting that people already have a Down syndrome child, don't love it, shouldn't love it, and as a child.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, I don't I don't know.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't take that, I didn't take that from a child.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure you didn't, but many people did, and I think that was the reason it got controversial.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: How do you know that it increases the amount of suffering in the world to bring in a child with Down syndrome into the world?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know it for certain.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to me to be plausible that if if a child is has uh any kind of disability, um then uh you probably would increase the amount of happiness in the world more by having an another child instead.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think?
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Would you have no reason for knowing that?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I have no direct evidence.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: No, you just you know you're such a scientific logical person that I thought that you could possibly have some logical uh backup to it.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: So do you know anyone with Down syndrome?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Not uh not not intimately, no.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, yeah.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean look, everyone has their own experience of it, and possibly m my experience would be that you're not necessarily right, and I think a lot of people would think you're not necessarily right.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure I'm I'm I'm sure that that that you love your child.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, nothing nothing to do with that.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I I'm not having an emotional discussion with you here.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm simply having a logical discussion with you.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: You said that you would increase the amount of suffering in the world.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just I was just asking you in a logical way how how you know that.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant, isn't it?
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, fair and fair play to him.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_06: You know, fair play to Brendan O'Connor.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_06: He he he handled it very, very, very well, I thought.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_06: Just um yeah.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_06: And he really did call to him.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_06: You can see you can almost I mean, you can imagine you can see Dawkins on his phone just cringing, can't you?
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Like I don't know, maybe you're not cringing enough.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think you know, as we'll see in a second, you know, Dawkins is is is perfectly happy to to actually continue the conversation in in quite a measured sense.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's good.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad to have measured conversations, but when the measured conversations are about the existence or not of a subgroup of the population, you know.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um that's that's a bit dystopian.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_03: Um but yeah, so what's fascinating is here is the basis on which Dawkins makes his calculation.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_03: His calculation is entirely predicated on utilitarianism.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_03: We want the greatest happiness of the greatest number, and we would not be increasing the sum of happiness in the world if we brought disabled people into the world.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_03: That's that is the assumption.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: What I think is a mistake is to is to assume that that is the metric by which we judge things.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: And then to say, oh yeah, but disabled people, th they actually they they can have happy happy lives.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: And they can lead to, you know, the the sum of happiness being being greater in the world.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's a that's a massive mistake because it's to play into the fact that people have got to earn their right to exist.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, and it comes through being happy and or not experiencing suffering.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_06: And I mean if that was your criteria, I mean why only apply why only apply that in the womb anyway?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_06: You know, we like last week we were talking about depression.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_06: You know, that's a lot of suffering.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_06: But well that was we could we could decrease the suffering then just get rid of all the depressed people.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: And and this is this is uh a sign that we are kind of very utilitarian in our society, that we just suffering is the metric and we just want to eliminate suffering.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: And so one of the the really chilling ways of doing that is by eliminating sufferers.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_03: So assisted suicide, euthanasia, just you know, you want if if the the the absolute goal is to eliminate suffering, then just eliminate sufferers.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_03: Um and if you want to eliminate sufferers, then then why not eliminate the disabled as well?
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_03: And we're just on really shaky ground if our only comeback to that is oh no, but some disabled people have really fulfilling lives and can be really productive in society and and put a smile on your face.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: And and at that point you only some.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_03: Only some.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_06: There might be some others.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_03: And I can understand why people do this, and I think there's a time and a place for doing this, but there's a time and a place for pointing out that's like just psychologically, the happiest people on earth have Down syndrome.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like when you when you ask people with Down syndrome, are you happy with your life?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's like 95-99% of people with Down syndrome are happy or very happy with their lives.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like, that's that's not normal, you know.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um, you're your normal modern You know, ask ask Oxford professors, let's say, you know, what percentage of them are happy or very happy with their lives.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_03: So there's a time and a place for pointing that out.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think here is the time and the place for pointing that out.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_03: Because then you're then you're basically agreeing that as long as they're happy, or as long as they contribute to overall happiness, we'll let we'll let those guys through, right?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_03: Um So yeah, one one way not to respond to this, I think, is is to play the utilitarian game.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because Dawkins himself doesn't play the utilitarian game earlier on.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like when it comes to religion, if if religion makes you happier, he's like, well, no, but you know, I I don't want any fairy tales to make me happy.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: I want the truth.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_03: There's a higher value for him.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_03: And we should be we should be saying, yeah, and there's a higher value than than happiness when it comes to this question.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_03: And and that higher value has got to be the value of life in and of itself.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um so yeah, so it I I think I think, you know, it was it was it was delicious for um Brendan to ask Dawkins what evidence he has to back it up.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because prior to that he was Mr.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_03: Evidence, he was Mr.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Truth, he was Mr.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_03: Rationality, and then no, when it comes to when it comes to this question, it's it's an intuition.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's a it's a feeling.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_03: A feeling that he has no you know no backup for.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_03: So So that was the that was the that was the irony of the the utilitarian being being called out on that.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: But I but I do think that we we ought not to play the utilitarian game um the the way that both Dawkins and O'Connor were kind of assuming.
• 25:24
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• 25:32
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• 25:34
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• 25:40
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• 25:48
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• 25:52
  SPEAKER_06: We'd really appreciate it.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_03: But then in the in the final clip on this, um we we sort of round things off.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_03: And uh let's let's let's listen to the final clip on this.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, what other imperfections would you screen out?
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um I think deafness, blindness, I mean it it seems to me to be uh when when you have the choice, when it when it's early in pregnancy and the and the fetus has hardly started to to develop, almost everybody, as a matter of fact, does abort um a child if it has an easily diagnosable disability early in pregnancy.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, we okay, but if we put aside what people do do, you believe that if we can check for deafness or blindness or any other disabilities, that we should and and look, I'm not again, I'm not criticizing it here.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: You think we should abort those children?
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_00: Those those feet as I think of it.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's a it's a choice, it's a choice that the parent has.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: But do you think it would be immoral for them not to do it?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: Let's leave out of the let's leave out the immoral.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, but you brought immoral into it.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well I I take that back.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be wise.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think it would be wise and sensible to abort a child which had a serious disability, which was diagnosed early in pregnancy.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_01: I suspect that almost everybody does that in practice.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: And and there's w one other thing I would say on it is purely uh again on the basis of rationality.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, children who are so-called perfect can cause terrible suffering in the world as well, but I suppose we have no way of checking, have we?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, of course.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_06: Um as he says, you know, what what other things would you screen out?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_06: You know, blindness, deafness.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Just on the tip of his tongue, wasn't it?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_06: Oh man.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's such a slippery slope, isn't it?
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_06: You know, blindness, deafness, uh ADHD, dyslexia, yeah, redheads.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_06: Short-sighted and that's it, I'm gone.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_06: But I mean what you you're doing.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_03: But they they face bullying.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: They face bullying in life, redheads do.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_06: Sure, so it is a hop, skip, but it is a hop, skip, and a jump, isn't it?
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_06: You're not far from like where'd you draw the line and say like what a serious disability is?
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_06: You know.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, you know, if I were if I was a hunter-gatherer still, I'd be stuffed.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_06: So I can't see anywhere.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_06: Like I'd be used to it.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_04: That's true.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_04: You are defective.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_04: I yeah.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_04: I hadn't truly appreciated your deformity before, but now I'm scared.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_04: You did not look upon my deformity.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_04: I don't even see you as short sight.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_03: But yeah.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: It's the fact that it was on the tip of his tongue.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, what what other deformities?
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Well, deafness and blindness for one.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_03: Like inst instantly, what vision of society is this?
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_03: I tell you what vision of society it is.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's the vision of society that every other culture has had outside of Christianity.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, sure.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: You know?
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_03: And and it it it's it's a human universe.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like exposing your infants is basically there were some Germanic tribes that didn't do it outside of the influence of Christianity, but apart uh apart but like those Germanic tribes and Christians, they were the weirdos.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, if you have a child that is defective in some way, or a or a female or a girl, then you know, well they're they're expensive and they they um they cost you more.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_03: Like girls, they cost you more, and they, you know, they might not be as strong to, you know, to work in the fields.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_03: So if we're gonna do a cost-benefit analysis, then that's where that's where you come to.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_03: Um and Christoph Keating has said, you know, it really sounds like the stalk brings babies on Dawkins' view, because he keeps on saying, before you have them, you know.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, once you have a child with Down syndrome, you love the child.
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_03: Like, well, at what point do you have the child?
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_03: I thought you were a professor of biology.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like, where do these children come from?
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but he is just articulating a philosophy that that's like outside of the influence of Jesus Christ.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um outside of the influence of Jesus Christ, this is just normal.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is just natural.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, of course you eliminate the weak.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, this week there was um someone was talking to me about uh natural law and and how brilliant, you know, Aristotle is and and and helping us to um to have some common ground with the unbeliever.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_03: And because they they believe in logic and you believe in logic, so can't you establish logically that the child in the womb is also part of the human family?
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: Premise one.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_03: Premise two, therefore it's part of the human family, you should accord them provision and protection and and and not kill them.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um and and I was like, well, maybe maybe logic can grant you premise one.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_03: But what logic says, because you're dealing with another human being, therefore you don't kill it.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: It's a big jump, innit?
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, especially in in Aristotle's world, you know, the pata familius, the the the the father, the head of the household, has the absolute power of life or death over every member of his household, whether they're in the womb or out or out of it, and could and could kill other members of his household when they're outside the womb.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: And just because they're part of humanity or even part of the the household doesn't exempt them from the absolute right of the strong to kill the weak.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: And Aristotle would say, well, nature would teach you that there's a natural inequality, and so let's preserve the natural inequality and let the strong rule over the weak.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_03: There's nothing there's nothing logical about the pro-life argument, I would say.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I mean, it it hangs together, the premises hang together, but one of these premises is not really demonstrable logically, which is because they're human, don't kill them.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's it's Jesus who te who teaches you the equal human value and and that we should prize the weak.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because ac actually, economically speaking, a child is not as valuable as a as an adult.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: You can't put them to work, that they're not strong, they're they're not gonna they're not gonna give you the same value.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_03: So where where does the value exist?
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_03: Well it's got it's got it's got to be a value that's given because the the image of God is on the child, and therefore you treat them as morally equal to every other person.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_03: But but Dawkins is is absolutely if if Dawkins is right biologically, he's also right morally.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_03: I would think.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_03: Which is not to say that there aren't a whole bunch of humanist pro-lifers.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_03: There are.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_03: And there are atheist pro-lifers that are out there.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, of course.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um but but it's it's of course because they live in a world shaped by Christianity.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_03: I think.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_06: You know the water we swim in and all that uh Tom Holland stuff, isn't it?
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_03: So um yeah, so uh Christoph's made some uh some good points as as well.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um how many depressed people might take an opportunity to end their suffering with so-called dignity.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um yeah.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_03: Um where was the other great point that um uh Christoph made?
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um yes, Brendan did show that even on uh Dawkins' own reasoning, Dawkins could not show his conclusion.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I I think I think that's right that that um the the fact that that Brendan was holding his feet to the flames and saying, look, even on utilitarian grounds, even on scientific grounds, you don't have the evidence to to back up your claim.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: Uh he showed he showed an inconsistency there.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um and also um earlier I said that um you know Dawkins just said the the the quiet bit out loud and Christoph said he didn't just say what we do, he did say what we ought to do.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: So so just just as we do in fact abort the disabled, um yeah, Dawkins said we ought to, and that was that was the step that's sort of horrific.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's the right thing, isn't it, to do that in his view.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas you know, allowing people to do that, aren't you s I mean, aren't you saying it's the right thing to do?
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_03: If if it's permissible legally to do something, aren't you giving a moral stamp of approval to it?
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_06: To some extent, yeah.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, not that crimes and sins are the same thing, they're not, but um uh Christopher also said that Richard Dawkins should talk to Tom Holland or maybe rewatch Star Trek's Bread and Circuses episode.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_03: Um there is there is a brilliant uh description of Star Trek's Bread and Circuses episode on the Axe 17 Apologetics uh channel.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: So David Wood did a video just yesterday where he goes through the Star Trek Bread and Circuses episode.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, because uh this is this is back in classic Wit William Shatner land of Star Trek, and it's this episode in which um they come across a civilization that's in like identical to Earth, but it's as though Christianity never happened.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so the Roman Empire just grows and grows, it never fell.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: And so now there's gladiatorial games, they're just broadcast live on TV, you know.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_03: And it's an utterly brutal society, it's a terrifyingly alien world because Jesus and the revolution of Jesus has not, you know, gotten hold of that civilization.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's fascinating the way that that episode um interesting continues.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe maybe we'll put a link in the in the show notes and in the description to that uh Act 17 Apologetics video.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_03: But um anything more to say on these issues?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_06: Uh yeah, well we just I I think just on that issue of you know, many people are outraged by the kind of things Dawgin says, but yet we see so many people uh in that situation do the thing, you know, would abort a child like that.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_06: Um and we you know we've kind of said there is that uh logical inconsistency there.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_06: Um but I mean I think there's just a it's a it's a unwillingness if you're thinking about s suffering you know, there's an unwillingness to suffer as well.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_06: Because so I mean if if you've anyone who has children would know that like having any child is uh a a a strain on you in some way, you know, whether you know if you think of it as a strain or whatever is there is it takes a lot from you to raise a child, and of course uh children with disabilities will have varying levels of strain as well.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_06: It may well be much more strenuous raising a child with a disability.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_06: Um But is that there's that thing, isn't it?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_06: I think what it comes down to is that people look at it and say, Well, I'm prepared to I'm prepared to suffer to an extent of raising a child, but I'm not prepared to suffer to the extent of someone raising a child like this.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_06: You know, um that you know, like like my kids, presumably by the time they're about eighteen, hopefully they'll be relatively self-sufficient, you know, and they'll be able to I'm sure there's some parents with older children now laughing.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_06: You know, um but you know, they'll they'll presumably be able to go off and lead a life of their own and they won't need us there to feed them and clothe them every day and stuff, you know.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_06: Whereas some people may be thinking, well, but what if I have a child who until the day I die, I literally have to pour myself out into their life.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_06: And I think there's an unwillingness to do that.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_06: And of course, yeah, I think from a Christian point of view is that Jesus is the one who comes and pours himself out.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_06: That that that life, the life of giving of yourself for others is very much the life of God, isn't it?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_06: Um and it's just where we you know it's interesting to think like why where we draw a line on that for some of us.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_06: Yes.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_06: You know, that we're willing to do it for a a child that we would deem normal, so to speak, in inverted commas.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_06: But a child who has you know disability, we think, oh, I'm not willing to pour myself out that much.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_06: So it becomes I wonder whether it becomes less about the child, but more about us.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_06: Right.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_06: You know, so we'd rather be comfortable.
• 38:49
  unknown: Yeah.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_06: I don't know.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_03: Ben Woodcraft's made the great point that David Wood, who I just mentioned, has to look after his disabled children on a daily basis, on a nightly basis.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, he's up, he's up all through the night watching his children who could, you know, um, who could choke to death at at any moment and they are profoundly disabled, and yet he he has found a happiness and the good life in in giving himself for for his children.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, maybe that maybe that helps him process this issue as as well.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: And it seems to me like like if you want to just eliminate suffering, then you you should go the whole hog and be an anti-natalist.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: You know, anti-natalists just say, well, yeah, all people entering planet Earth increase the sum of unhappiness.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_03: So it is it is immoral to bring anyone into the world.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: And they're just taking Richard Dawkins' logic as a the logical conclusion further down the line, yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: Which is what um Brendan O'Connor says.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_03: He says, you know, that you you know that even you know so-called normal children um cause all kinds of pain and unhappiness.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_06: I mean, I don't know, Hitler, Bin Laden, Pol Pot, Stalin.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_06: I don't I'm not aware that any of them had any particular abnormalities, you know, that we've looked at, you know, and gone in the womb.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_06: Oh, well that clearly these guys are gonna be you know, bringing a lot of suffering into the world.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_03: Amanda Kay says, Love is sacrifice.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_03: My daughter's medical care sent me to the ER twice due to stress.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_03: It's always worth it.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and yeah, that's a beautiful testimony to the way of Jesus.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_03: Um and it brings in that that value, love.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I I mentioned the sort of the triad in Greek philosophy of goodness, truth, and beauty.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: What's that missing?
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that's missing love.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_03: This this this great the greatest of all these values is love.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_03: And you don't get love if you're just trying to balance happiness versus pain.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_03: You'd never get married if you did that.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like you'd never um if you're just trying to eliminate suffering from your life, you would never risk anything.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_03: You'd never, you know, there'd be no romantic um gestures and that sort of thing.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_03: And so love is the greatest thing.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_03: And again, I think that's infected um Richard Dawkins' philosophy when it comes to science.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: So when it comes to science, he's and and and the faith position, like he doesn't want anyone to be deluded with uh uh a comforting fiction when it comes to faith.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_03: Because there's a there's a higher good to actually facing the pain of a godless universe, right?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: But there's a happiness on the far side of that, says Dawkins.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_03: You've you face the truth, even if it's not the opiate of the masses.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_03: You've you face you face reality without the comfort of this sort of sky daddy.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: And on the far side, there is there is a goodness to truth that leads to a sort of happiness.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I and and that that's quite a Christian thing.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_03: And especially when you translate it out of that realm into the moral realm.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: And you're just like, well, when you give up on the pleasure versus pain, you know, calculations and you just sacrifice in the name of love, it is painful, but on the far side of that, you discover a goodness and a love and a happiness, even, that is, you know, far superior than anything that you had when you were just trying to keep yourself safe.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_03: Um so what what do you lose when you just go for the pain versus pleasure calculations?
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_06: You lose love and you lose risk and you lose heroism, and you know, I think that you know, love is sacrifice, you know, I I guess from that Christian perspective, because we have love for others means to sacrifice ourselves for others, as is the example of Jesus.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_06: And I wonder whether in our society what we have is this kind of flip thing is that like we we we have a love for ourselves and therefore we'll sacrifice others for ourselves.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_06: And I wonder whether that's kind of the flip of it, isn't it?
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_06: That you know, people say love yeah, you know, because I'm sure you would find someone who would say, Well, the loving thing to do would be to abort the child.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_06: But it's not loving for others, it's loving for yourself, isn't it?
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_06: Or when I say loving, you know, I use that in invert commas, you know, it's it's what's better for me.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um and guys, do listen to the whole 20 minutes because it's fascinating how inconsistent Dawkins is on all sorts of levels.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_03: But one of the other levels is on the freedom of speech issue, he's quite happy to bring discomforts into other people's lives for the sake of a higher ideal called truth.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: And if it's not politically correct, and if it's if it's you know judged as something that's cancelable by the woke culture, Richard Dawkins doesn't care.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_03: He's gonna because there's a higher there's a higher value, and causing pain for the sake of the higher value is totally fine if the higher value is this abstract thing called truth.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I guess what we're saying, well the what the pro life condition position is, is that the higher value is this thing called love.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: Which involves my life for you, not your life for me.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um and on the far side of of my life for you, Jesus said if you give your life you'll find it.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there there is a true happiness on the far side of that sacrifice, but yeah.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: Love your neighbor as yourself, says Dunce Scotus.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: I love that handle.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_03: Dunce Scotus.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um Yeah.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_03: Although we did yeah, we do we do get Dunces from Duns Scotus, don't we?
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_03: Um but it's an it's an ironic thing.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, um measure thy life by loss instead of gain, says Amanda Kay, quoting Ugo Bassi.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_03: Measure thy life by loss instead of gain.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: Not by the wine drunk, but the wine poured forth.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_03: For love's strength standeth in love's sacrifice.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: That's a good one, isn't it?
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: I don't think we can say anything after that.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_03: I think it would be immoral to try to try to say anything further to that.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_03: Measure thy life by loss instead of gain, not by the wine drunk, but the wine poured forth.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_03: For love's strength standeth in love's sacrifice.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_03: Boom.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna I'm gonna look me up some Ugo Bassi.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: That sounds that sounds good.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_03: Mic drop.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: Mic drop.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Amanda K.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_03: Nothing more to be said after that.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um except how can people find us on social media, Fall?
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_06: Uh yeah, so all the social media platforms, obviously we're here on YouTube, so give us a subscribe if you haven't already.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and then Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, all those things.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_06: Speaklife UK, if you search for us there, you should find us and you can uh like, follow whatever it is on that different medium.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_06: And then, of course, if uh you want to have a look at some of the bits that are coming up, um, keep up with resources that are coming out, you can always sign up to the email, speaklife.org.uk forward slash sign up, and we'll kind of send you a weekly email with a bit of info about what's going on.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_03: And on this very YouTube channel, uh, we've had five um uh videos in the series called Seeing the Future, and uh feel free to use those in any church settings or youth group settings that you might have.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: There they're five kind of 12-minute talks that are all about uh Christ's post-resurrection appearances.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: And uh this Friday as well, there'll be a video uh where I am interviewed all about uh preaching and my theology of preaching.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: So uh to get all that stuff, make sure that you are uh subscribed and to tap that bell here in YouTube.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_03: But um Paul Fecey, thank you very much.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_03: Clean Scrivener, thank you very much.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: We got them in the end, didn't we?
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: In the end.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_03: We hope so.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: We hope so.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: No more Daleks.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_03: Alright, God bless and see you next week.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_03: Bye.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_06: Well, that's all for us.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_06: We hope you enjoyed this week's podcast.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_06: We'd love to hear your thoughts and feedback and comments on the things that we talk about on the show.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_06: So please do feel free to get in touch with us.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_06: You can do that by emailing info at speaklife.org.uk to let us know what you think, or do join us over on our Facebook page, facebook.com forward slash speaklifeuk, where there's always lively discussion.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_06: We hope to see you again next week, but until then, keep speaking life.