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Why the STB Wants Jim Vena’s Video Made Public. Plus: Shipper Rates + the Elections · Talk Track by Telegraph

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to another episode of TalkTrack, the Telegraph podcast where we talk about and respond to the news and the current events of the day.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: As always, I'm joined by Telegraph co-founder and CEO Harris Liggan.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: Harris, thank you so much for joining another one of these conversations.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, David, great to be on with you again and super happy we're able to connect.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think we've we've got a lot to go through today.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: It feels like we are in an interesting cycle as it relates or as it relates to policy and news and just quite a few things going on in the transportation space these days.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Gosh, so much to talk about, and maybe you know some of the benefit we can bring to listeners is a distillation of what we found especially important.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: So let me kick to you with the first question.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_02: What is your above-the-fold headline, if you will, the biggest font on the page?
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: What is the big story that's on your mind right now?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you know because we already started talking about it.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Or I think I know because we already started talking about it, but what's top of mind for you in Railroading News right now?
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh the thing that caused me to almost spit out my coffee as I we were about to take off on a plane last night uh was the more recent ask or I guess decision that came out of the Surface Transportation Board, uh, number 45.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think that'll go down kind of as as an important number in this entire process, is that they effectively came out and have now required the Union Pacific to make public a video of their CEO, Jim Venna, speaking at a shipper conference back from March.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: The second thing that they they did as a part of their rulings yesterday was that they are also requiring the Union Pacific to respond to uh a fairly interesting inquiry and you know, for lack of a better word, demand letter from CPKC regarding the merger as well.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so they've both time boxed those.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so by 5 p.m.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_01: today, Unit Pacific has to basically produce this video and make it public um beyond just kind of the scope of the uh of the broader kind of inquiry.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they have a deadline to actually respond to CPKC's letter, which is all very interesting.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Absent them not taking action there, they have publicly said that they will hold the um the review in abeyance until I I think some things are settled.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: So this is seemingly in the transportation space, feels a little bit almost unprecedented, and it feels like we've had quite a bit of that this week.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: But maybe kind of to drill down on that and for you to clarify why it struck you so much for people who are maybe not in transportation every day and and you know, maybe haven't listened to Jim Venna speak as you know many times as we have.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: So he said something in front of a public conference.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I will be just a little bit pedantic and say, I think I was actually at that conference, not at that presentation.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: The the running number is 900 people there.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Was it 900?
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Roughly.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: Roughly people were there.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: It was at a conference, it was in front of a lot of people.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, why does it strike you so much that the board is compelling video of something that was already said and already said to a room full of affected and knowledgeable people?
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: What what strikes you so much about this week's decision on that?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's there's so much to kind of talk about uh from a regulatory board being, I mean, effectively taking a ton of tactical, very time-bound um actions here.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I I'll get into that a little bit later, but just as a little bit of background.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: That uh the conference that you were definitely at was SWARS in Houston on roughly March 17th.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that that piece of auditory, you know, um journey that Jim Venna took the folks on, as he regularly does with with with many of his like public um speeches, he he is he loves to narrate.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so, as a part of that, he may share a ton of information out there that is subject to perception.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it probably is worth considering when you're going through one of the most arguably historic uh potential transactions that the industry has ever potentially seen, that maybe that does carry a little bit of weight.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: What really was interesting about that is that nothing actually happened in the spring.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't until roughly July that I think it was Senator Baldwin came out and said, Hey, not sure if others are aware, um, but but this is potentially out there, or I heard of this.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: So as a result of as a result of those of those news cycles, there was a perception that Jim Venna and Union Pacific were potentially, or there was perception of that there was maybe a little bit of a threat.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then as a result of that, the STB, I think, was interested in learning more, and Union Pacific produced that video in in the discovery process, was marked confidential to the STB.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: And then shortly thereafter, a judge outside of the STB required that that video be made public, and the STB effectively, in some interesting way, is basically supporting and upholding that root ruling and saying, hey, the video needs to be a part of the public record for broader consideration.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: So the second piece is really around have we seen precedent for this before?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I if I believe, thinking back to, you know, 20 years ago, there was a case that the STB reviewed at that time that involved PyCo, which was a Lubbock-based tag shipper that had effectively said, we believe that we have been on the receiving end of some threatening behavior.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the board treated that threatened retaliation as something that needed to be considered as they looked at competitive access or they looked at prices, they they looked at all of these things.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the real piece of that is that the surface transportation surface transportation board always is going to index on making things public public record and showing everyone all of the data points that they are effectively considering.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_01: And my view on this is this is really just an extension of that.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_02: And and just you know, one note in prep for this conversation for no keeping score.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you're 100% right.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: It was Senator Baldwin who who raised the issue, and she was not up for re-election in the cycle, so she is, you know, still in power and you know, still on the scene, which I think matters, you know, to have that kind of voice asking for this.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I wonder, do you have a sense, you know, because to my read, it's not a hundred percent clear yet that the public will get the video, but it seems rather likely.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have a sense of if it was just in your opinion, how you would read the line between Jim Venna being kind of folksy in narrative and making a clear threat?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I this is I I think we're we get into almost a little bit of societal commentary, and I think if you're if you're taking the time to listen or view this podcast, I think you're it's it's probably top of mind for you as well.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: It is easy for for individuals, for participants in the ecosystem, and I think unfortunately even journalists to say, oh, it was just somebody saying some things, don't don't really give it any credit.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: This person has a history of saying a lot of other things that maybe you can or cannot or should or should not take it at face value.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe that's fine at um the local pub before the Chicago Bears game.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: May maybe that's fine um at the you know the the local um PTO uh event.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: That isn't the same environment that we find ourselves in discussing potentially the largest ever rail acquisition and combination that's ever that that's ever occurred in the in the history of North American railroading.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: And the second thing, the potential impacts of that decision later on down the line.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so to get a little hand wavy and say we we shouldn't really kind of like examine this and understand it a little more deeply, I think doesn't give credence to what we're actually what we're actually considering.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like if we actually think this is serious enough to talk about it and have headlines about it seemingly every day, then why would we act as if the the person driving this doesn't have a little bit of responsibility, much in the same way that um the investor relations team preps everybody for an investor call.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: I we we should probably should be treating public statements much in much in the same way.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, to be fully honest, I think we all as consumers and participants in the ecosystem love when we get a little bit of spice, love when we get a little bit of flair.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because we are so overwhelmed with the same corpus speak that we get all the time.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: It sounds like I'm arguing two sides of it.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I'm not.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I think that there are certain situations that require decorum, and I think there are certain situations that require a good, like good perspective about what you're offering up.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if there is a potential perception of your customers being threatened as a piece of retaliation, that feels like something we would intuitively just want to stay away from.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: That makes sense, and and you raise a good point in thinking about it from the STB's perspective.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: It it is, I think, to your point, critically important that if anyone's going to take even the suggestion of a threat of retaliation seriously, it's them.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it would have sent a chilling signal if the one body that is empowered to act against that didn't take this, you know, all the way, so to speak.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the other thing that that came to my mind about it is because you're right, it was such a complicated filing, and that like you know, the they were supposed to produce the video, and then I think two days late they come um appealed the ruling to share the video.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And all of that just says to me, like the doth protest too much, like there's something incriminating on that, otherwise we wouldn't be going through all of this.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's clearly verbiage there that could be portrayed in a poor light, and I think that's some of it too, is like, how can this video be edited by the opponents of the merger?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, what steam or what energy can that give to their arguments?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_02: I I wonder to think about the implications.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, does this change your feeling about whether or not it gets approved?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know that it yeah, I I don't I don't know that it necessarily changes my my opinion on whether it gets uh approved or not.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I if if if nothing else, I think that this um it reminds all of us that with the advent of technology, there are probably no safe and secure spaces at this point.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: I and so I I think it's it's a fair reminder of that.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the second thing is I am super appreciative that we have a body that is simply just saying we just need to make all the information available to all the people that that might have some sort of interest here.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know that it is generally in any scale any scope actually materially changes the likelihood of a specific outcome.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think it just informs whatever decision-making process was probably already in route.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: Is really really have it how I see it.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: What what about you?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: No, that that tracks in and I really think the strategy of the STB in the environment this you know board finds itself.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_02: And by environment, I mean specifically uh an administration that is really involved itself in merger decisions, a post-flaughter decision environment, meaning that the members of independent boards are subject to firing if they're sort of out of line with the goals of the administration.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: The the smart play for them, I think, in the in the one that they've executed on really well is it's unclear if the decision is wholly ours.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_02: And and there's a data point I'd like to bring into this conversation is that there was a great podcast that uh Chairman Fuchs did just two days ago, and uh the Wall Street Journal, ex-Wall Street Journal reporter, pushed him exactly, do you decide this or does the president?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the comment back was understandably vague, because I think the the the environment is understandably vague.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: So if I put myself in that position, I'm in my I admire their strategy because I think it's a smart one.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_02: If it's still too hot to touch how this decision will be made, what we can do in the meantime is build the broadest and and deepest evidentiary record that's ever existed.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_02: So at least that part of our job is is done and done very well.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of how I see it.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's still a lot could happen in how this thing gets decided.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm more of the opinion that this is an executive branch level decision over the STB's independent decision, but all of that could change by the elections.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_02: So as we were talking about kind of you know what are the big stories impacting the community of people who are interested in, you know, what guys like us have to say.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it's the elections and the shift in power, and without commenting on anyone's personal politics.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Is that your above the fold?
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, way okay, okay.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I let's get into it then.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, big, big font, big uh, you know, blue font, if you will, and I don't mean that in any partisan way.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: I just mean to say what's if the question to me is what's going to happen over the next six to twelve months for the people who listen to a podcast about freight rail, I think the change in political power matters, and the mechanisms by which that will appear to people are what happens with the surface transportation bill that is supposed to be passed by December.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: It could move into the next Congress, which would be, you know, the blue tsunami Congress, if you will.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_02: And there's stuff in there that matters to our constituency.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_02: The House version of the bill has subsidies for telematics, that matters to us.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's possible that the upcoming Senate version of the bill will have a two-person crew mandate.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_02: That matters to the people that we work with.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_02: All of the intermodal gain that we've seen that as a result of Department of Transportation action, you know, essentially limiting foreign-born truck drivers.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's not yet law, it's rules.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_02: And the notion is that they would become law in the next surface transportation bill under the current Congress.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: So all of that's up for grabs, and I think that that change in power, change in authority, change in membership on the relevant committees could change things in 2027.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: So going back to the codification of some of these rules as it relates to truck driver, permissioning, authority, those kinds of things.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do we feel like much in the same way that the you know, to to reach back into telematics, that I the ELD mandate that we saw in 2015-2016, do you feel like this is of the same impact as the trucking?
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like this will become code, will become federal federal regulation, and potentially have this major lasting impact on truck capacity in North America.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's a great way to frame it up because it inspires so many feelings.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: But uh but the first feeling is yes, uh I just can't see the DOT or members of Congress going back on safety-motivated actions for motorists.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of what this was about was started with safety.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are are all the drivers on the road qualified to be driving giant trucks alongside public motorists?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: And the the answer that came back was no, let's get rid of the ones that aren't.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: That I think has bipartisan support.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think there could be some sort of negotiations around the edges of some of the English language requirements and what that does to you know immigrant workers in this country, and there's certainly differences of opinions there, but I like how you framed it like the ELD mandate.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think structurally, this is a change to the workforce that's available to trucking, which brings those rates up and changes the calculus between trucking and train.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so on on the on that same perspective, do you think uh rail telematics gets a lift from a more safety-minded uh group of yeah, I do.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I think the I wouldn't expect that it would get stronger.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: So right now the House version of the bill is um includes something by uh Republican Troy Nils out of Texas that earmarks a certain amount of money to go to the owners of rail cars to subsidize the purchase of telematics units, and there's a schedule in there uh that starts, you know, I think quite logically with tankers and hazmat.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, yes.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: So that you know makes great sense.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think and I like to believe that there would be bipartisan, and in fact, that was bipartisan sponsored by um uh Nils and I think also um Moulton, formerly from Massachusetts, and I think Costa from California, if I recall correctly.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a long way of saying I think that level of support stays, but in the current environment, I don't see anyone dreaming up a hugely ambitious new expensive telematics plan.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: You know, even if we change parties, because I I think another thing that's likely to happen um, you know, when the new Congress is seated is there's gonna be so many investigations and so much uh energy and and effort and airtime is gonna go towards that unfortunately big ambitious transportation projects that make guys like us excited won't get as much much energy.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: But but that could, I think, play into some of the the merger uh approval timeline, because if some of those investigations touch parts of what UP may have done to try to get this merger approved, I could see the STB saying, oh well now if for example um contributions to the ballroom are being investigated, we need to wait until that's figured out before we make a ruling.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: That could slow things down.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I I yeah, I I I see that that that interesting chain of logic.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think my my only other, I guess, regulatory or you know government-related pieces uh the last time we kind of went through a much deeper cycle, and and fortunately with it within transportation, there hasn't been a ton of deep MA activity that required federal kind of review and approval.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: The last, I mean, the only comparable that I really had was 2021, Lindacon, FTC, and think about the string of just deep-seated reviews.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Microsoft Activision, I think Meta was in there, Kroger Albertsons, I mean a ton of you know, household names that we've all thought about had to go through a much more rigorous kind of review process.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: I I think regardless of where you sit on the political spectrum or what you may believe that the role of like government is in all of these things, I think there is, there has been a trend more towards deeper government review of major transactions.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_01: For for better or for worse, I think that is gonna become a steadier part of what we are experiencing.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we, I think, as taxpayers should take the benefit of that and understand the processes a little bit more, which you know, obviously, we're getting a very unique uh set of information on a very unique potential combination, and and so I think you know, we're obviously spending a lot of airtime talking about it because it really matters.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but this may be kind of the the the direction of how things are gonna go.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the good thing about it, Dave, and I I don't know how you feel about this, but more information is generally better for the overall thing.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: So on that point, we think about more information.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: What is your B side?
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is the thing that is not making above the fold?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_02: My B-side track, you know, the other side of the hit single for me is I think we are not paying enough attention to what's going on with labor on the West Coast ports.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, people may have seen it if they follow the trade press here or the shipping news, but you know, essentially the security personnel at America's largest imported ports, Los Angeles Long Beach, um, are may go on strike this week.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: Uh could be extended, but the the negotiations have come to that point.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things we saw the last time this happened on the East Coast is that a lot of these unions stand in solidarity.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I think if if that falls apart, we could see just ahead of a Q4 peak, you know, shipping volumes, real slowdown to the ports, which would impact everyone because it's an interconnected system.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I feel like that's not getting the above-the-fold attention that it did, what was it, three years ago when we had that same issue on the East Coast.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but but maybe it should.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, the the interesting piece there is you you mentioned it being this interconnected network.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And for for folks who maybe don't think about global and domestic supply chains on a day-to-day basis, one of the more interesting perspectives around what happens if the port ultimately filters down and connects to kind of other modes, whether it's trucking or rail, I've oftentimes thought of the North American rail network as being one where we talk about all these all these independent, um, separate entities as if they aren't physically interconnected between us.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And forty thousand mile track network.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost as if sometimes if a one railroad catches a cold, everybody else gets sick.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a another way we can think about this, if something materially happens at the port of Savannah, the Port of Charleston, or LA Long Beach, especially, what actually happens not only to the rail network, but the local trucking and drainage market.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it I like, I mean, we think we don't, I think, give enough credence to potentially what's what's going on there.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm glad you you brought that up because these you know, as I landed at O'Hare last night, I walked by a giant Teamsters protest.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Fortunately, I was able to get off the plane, but I I think we sometimes take for take it a little bit for granted that we are somewhat immune to a lot of these like you know potential disruptions.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And this is one that I think would come at a very inopportune time as we think about imports, peak season, consumer demand, so on and so forth.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: So good good ad there, Dave.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: No, thank you.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And and and to me it's it's a it's a reminder that that I take seriously, and I know we all do like you know, AI is exciting, data is exciting, but the supply chain is run by people, you know, and these are people working there doing hard physical work under, you know, sometimes very challenging conditions.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's still physical things moved by real humans, and and that system needs to be tended to too.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: But gosh, do you have a B-side?
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Do you have an angle on this or a story?
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I know you're reading all the time that you're thinking about um this week outside of you know the big headline of the merger.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was you know, it's it was hard to uh to think about that there is uh a bigger story than the things that we have already are.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe an angle on that, yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, no, no.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: I absolutely is gonna get overlooked in the entirety of this kind of uh post-election, SCB ruling, you gotta release a video by 5 p.m.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you know, kind of like timeline.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is that uh CPKC and kudos to Keith Creel for being able to consistently beat the same drum on both sides as it relates to the merger.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: I I I really commend them because um he did an excellent job advocating for a merger when it was his railroad and Kansas City Southern.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, anybody that's paid attention to this will absolutely know that even combined, they are still the smallest and had the least amount of track that probably overlapped out of any combination you could have done.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: It is so interesting to see someone who had played effectively one side of the field completely come to the other side and and drive a harder set of accountability.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_01: And you might even argue that because he and his team had to go through that process, he is in fact probably the most informed person about the merger process.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so as a result of that, maybe feels that that um that that information and education that was thrust upon him in that process is now better off shared.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have been surprised, surprised and find myself in a little bit of admiration from time to time because Keith is a hard, charging, cold-blooded, great operator, and he's he's as good of an operator in a leadership position that we've we've seen in the industry and in him kindly a very long time.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: And for him to have such grasp of the mechanics of what needs to happen has been somewhat uh illuminating.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's been funny, there's been some irony in it, but I I have appreciated that as well, and and I think the fact that Union Pacific has now basically been required to respond, I think it's by November 18th to the letter that the CPKC has filed, is another interesting wrinkle in all of this.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so I know that we've talked about how railroads in 2026 and the amount of kind of engagement and headlines and everything that's going on, it it does feel like the true housewives of Atlanta, and and uh and and candidly like it's kind of earned that.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know what?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: Good good good for the railroads for giving us something to talk about, more than just operating ratio, earnings per share, and the perpetual use of the word growth.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_02: That's really interesting, and it made me think of something, maybe a question of post back to you.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, one thing that that struck me about this video controversy and you know what you said about um, I think Keith Creel, like, you know, really effectively managing the system and knowing how it works is like I guess I was thinking about how if you're in a group of people, if you're at a party, you can tell who thinks who's important by who they're talking to.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so part of me kind of thinks why are they doing a display for the public if they don't think the public's important?
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of thought you know, all the attention giving to you know the White House was evidence of the fact that that is who people believe is important.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: So this kind of controversy, one, creating the Real Housewives of Atlanta public drama, and two, the controversy about letting a video out into the world that could be re-edited in a way that would change public perception does suggest that maybe people think there is a public court of opinion that matters here.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that that's that that's interesting.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what kind of parties you're attending in Boston, but I know there are some parties that where you wear a mask, and so it makes it hard to really know.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I don't get invited to those.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: But um but what I what I what I would say is that I think it's I think it's a it's it's a net positive, right?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, more information to a certain extent, there probably is a limiting factor there somewhere, and I think we've probably seen that with social media where too much information, probably not great for society.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but at a certain point, I I think it does allow you to uh to form your own opinion.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't seen the video.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what what was said.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've been super fortunate to see many CEOs speak at many shipper conferences this year.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: They generally all say the same thing that's been approved by corporate comms and the investor relations and whatever else they're being marched out to say.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: The good thing about Jim Venna, and you know, by virtue of Keith Keel, Keith Creel wanting to respond to a lot of things, is that they do get impassioned by it, they do share a lot of things.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm not I'm not passing judgment on whether that is good or bad or appropriate or not.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: It is a nice change of pace.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'll be honest with you.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: What is what is interesting is the fact that there is a desire to make sure that that is available to the public does give me the sense I'm less worried about what may or may not be there or what may or may not be in the interpretation.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pleased by the fact that there is just a desire to ensure that there is nothing in this process that um the average citizen is not able to kind of really understand.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the uh the other really interesting thing, and this this is a curveball that that just came to me as a part of that letter.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: There is gonna be an interesting mapping where Union Pacific is going to have to effectively go into its its CRM and map communications and discussions of rates, and and they're gonna have to, I think, produce as a part of a discover legal discovery process what communications they have had with shippers more recently.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've got to tell you, you and I have been supporting a lot of shippers lately on some rate discussions that they have having they have been having with railroads.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say it so you don't have to.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: I have been appalled at the rate increases that have been coming over without without any anything else associated with it, without a desire to improve service, we're gonna improve the number of days that we're actually switching you.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're gonna give you some sort of incentive structure over here to help spin up this plant.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: I I think you and I over the past couple weeks, as we've been working with some shippers on negotiations, uh yeah, there's some numbers that I feel are completely unprecedented from a rate range.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that that's interesting to think about the timing of that, yeah, because it would be an inopportune time to be portrayed as greedy.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and if if that's what can be done with some of this material.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: The the the other thing that that I thought of when you were saying that too is like, you know, I think you're right that getting all the information out there, uh this one maybe more even than others, but also like so many people are AI enabled now.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the ability to parse this data is you know far beyond what it was 10 years ago.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think even a casual observer can take this huge evidentiary record and come up with analysis in a way that certainly wasn't possible 10 years ago, 20 years ago.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: So it it makes sense to build the big record, but if I if it were my records, I'd be nervous about all that high-powered scrutiny.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know, one of one of the things that when we think about scrutiny and thinking about this week, how the landscape has shifted, and thinking about, you know, you thankfully join a lot of earnings calls and kind of have that discussion and uh and bring that information to us and the and the the rest of the community.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: I've been thinking more and more about the obvious, non-obvious windfalls that are likely happening in the energy refining space.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And look that that is a that is like many other commodities markets, is uh, you know, it is feast or famine, and and it is there's some wild swings.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: The swings that are definitely in the favor of refiner, domestic-based refiners today.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that we are going to see, as the folks say, those earnings doing some numbers.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I almost wonder if there isn't a little bit of like there's the very public story that we will be able to read and consume from an investor standpoint that is likely going to lead us to a situation of oh my are the energy companies making potentially too much money.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a very unsettling thought, as you know, from a capitalist standpoint.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_01: I would have to say along those same lines, David, if you are a regulatory body that is worried about shipper retaliation and part of your charge is making sure that that um the appropriate prices are being um set in the market in an appropriate manner by the Weavill sample and a variety of other things, if you get access, so if you knowing that there is maybe some shipper frustration, you have had to manage some cases recently about rates, and all of a sudden you get access to communications about how rates are being basically discussed today, alight of everything else that is going on in the background, that is uh that is an interesting place to be.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I, yeah, I mean, I don't really like CRMs, but Lord, this is gonna, this feels like it's gonna be a really challenging process.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: So gosh, we've covered a lot of ground, a lot has happened, uh, just you know, that we've been able to talk about in this brief session, but but Harris, thinking about, you know, we're in November now, fall, what's on your mind going into November and the end of the year in railroading?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, first things first, I am super excited about a really good harvest.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh American farmers have have needed access to a bigger market, and I hope that um you know the the cycle plays out in a way that it is great for for the overall farmers.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Also super excited about another domestic peak season.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: That was uh an area where I spent a good portion of my career.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Super excited about that, and it feels like all the right conditions are are set there.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: Just hoping the freight railroading resource-based locomotives crews um actually is able to hold up and support this going forward.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: So really excited, David.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: This was an absolute blast, and I'm glad we were able to get this pod up this week.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And if anyone wants to hear more of this commentary, read more of our analysis, you can always check us out at LinkedIn or online at telegraph.io.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening.