Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / The Product vs The Process

Transcript

The Product vs The Process · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever wondered what goes on behind the table at a dance competition?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly what are the judges looking for anyway?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is Making the Impact, a dance competition podcast.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Each week we'll cover a different topic related to the world of competitive dance from the perspective of the judges behind the table.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: In a world that prioritizes the final performance, it's easy to forget the importance and beauty of the process that gets you there.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_01: Today on Making the Impact, we're joined by IDA judge JJ Joseph and professional dancer Corey Petinod to debate the merits of the product versus the process.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, dance world, and welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host, Leslie Mueller.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Hey Courtney, hey listeners, how are ya?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing good.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thrilled for this episode.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: We're talking about the product versus the process and what exactly that means.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's a doozy, y'all.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a big conversation.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: We could truly have just there could probably be an entire podcast series on this question.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: But we're gonna narrow it down with our two awesome guests today to a digestible portion for you.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can't wait to dive into it.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I know they're gonna have some really great advice to share with you all.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's an important listen.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_02: So make sure your dancers are also listening as well.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: And listeners, we don't really ask for this a lot anymore because we have so many wonderful reviews.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: But if you're feeling so inclined, if you love what we offer to you on a weekly basis for the past five years, would you be so kind as to leave us a nice review on Apple Podcasts?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: That helps us stay nice and high in the rankings, helps us reach new audiences, and it just makes us feel good.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: So if you like what you're hearing, head over to Apple Podcasts and give us a five-star review.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_02: But before we jump into our episode, like always, we want to tell you a little bit more about our wonderful sponsors.
• 2:04
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• 2:12
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• 2:21
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• 2:28
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• 2:39
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• 2:45
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• 2:50
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• 2:54
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• 2:58
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• 3:02
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• 3:09
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• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Moving through a competitive dance season comes with a lot of excitement along with top level goals.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: But sometimes, as you find yourself saying, straighten your knees or use your turnout, does it feel like the progress doesn't match the work?
• 3:26
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• 3:46
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• 3:48
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• 4:01
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• 4:15
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• 4:26
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• 4:38
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• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: Alright, Dance World, we are jumping into our next episode of Making the Impact.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm excited to hear what our guests have to say and share and learn from them on this one because I think it's a very important topic.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's so it's a topic that we actually came up with way back in episode 132, Keeping Dancers Physically Safe.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_02: We brainstormed it in that episode and we were like, oh, that's such a good topic.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_02: We should do a full episode on it.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: So we're talking about the product versus the process.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_02: And as you know, so many dancers these days are just focused about the all about those tricks.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's all they care about, but they don't realize, and not just the tricks, but all aspects of dance.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And they don't realize that there are building blocks, there is a process to get to that trick that they just want to rush over, jump over, and there's it can be damaging if they skip over those fundamentals and basics and the process of achieving that product.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: So we're gonna talk all about that from different viewpoints today, with two brand new guests joining us here on the podcast.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: The first guest that I'm very excited to welcome, I am meeting here for the first time, but they are a judge on our roster at IDA.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: They've been with us for two seasons now, and I'm so excited to get to know them more.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: They're going to be bringing the East Coast and West Coast perspective to this chat as they are a bi-coastal dancer, choreographer, performer.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very excited to welcome Julie JJ Joseph to the podcast.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, JJ.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, thanks for having me.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Of course.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for being here and expressing interest in wanting to talk about this.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to hear what you have to share.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, me too.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be fun.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: All right, JJ, if you could share with the world more about you, where you grew up, where you're based now, any early dance training, credits in your career, and what you're working on.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so uh I grew up in Westchester, New York, which is like 30 minutes outside New York City.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I grew up at like a very small, uh, very lovely studio, Rose's School of Dance.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: It was like very like mom and pop, like it was one teacher for everything, like one studio the whole time.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then I fell in love with dance, but did a bunch of other stuff, and then went off to college to study psychology.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: And then in the middle of all of that, realized like I wanted to see where dance took me, so I came back to dancing full-time after I graduated.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_03: I was living in Boston at that point, so I started teaching locally at studios and met really wonderful people who I'm still in connection with in a very lovely way, but that kind of led me back to falling in love with actually being a dancer, which took me back to New York, which then took me out here to LA.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_03: So it's been quite the adventure.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um throughout the past few years, I've gotten the wonderful opportunity to movement direct for New York Fashion Week.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, I work in film as a director of photography uh behind the camera, and also I direct and movement direct uh budding artists in some projects of theirs.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Uh I teach at Rabbit Dance Center in New York and Athletic Garage in LA.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I've been lucky enough to kind of have like really a full, I judge for dance competitions, like I have like a full, I've had like a very full, rounded experience so far, and I look forward to whatever roundingness comes next.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: I love that.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you've really like dabbled in all sides of the industry, it sounds like.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure that also gives you completely different viewpoints and perspectives to share on different topics and pull from all of those experiences today on this chat here on the podcast.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited to learn more from you and thank you for being here.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yay! All right, our next special guest is someone who I have been admiring in the dance world and the New York City scene in in particular for the longest time.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_02: The moment I laid eyes on this dancer, they are a star and they are getting their flowers on Broadway.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: They have been in so many amazing shows, one of them being Bob Fossey's Dancing, which I had the pleasure of seeing her in twice, and she was absolutely phenomenal.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: A Broadway star is born, and we are so happy to have her here with us because she knows a thing or two about the process, y'all.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: And that's why I knew she was the perfect person for this chat.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm excited to welcome Corey Petnog to the podcast.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome, Corey.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yay, thank you.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to be here.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yay! I was racking my brain thinking, who really cares about quality?
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_02: Who really cares about training and putting the time in?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I was immediately thought of you because it and and everyone who's listening, you need to go look at Corey's Instagram and see her movement quality and her style and her textures and the details, and you'll understand exactly what we're talking about.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that just doesn't come out of nowhere.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: She has put the time in, she has put the work in, and I'm sure she's gonna tell you all about it.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, Corey, thrilled to have you on the podcast.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for squeezing us in.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And thank you.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so happy to be here.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yay.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_02: And uh please feel free to share a little bit more about you.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just to sort of give like a brief rundown.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of had I was a little bit of a late bloomer with dancing.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I started kind of late when I was 13.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: My mom took me to see Dance Leader Harlem at the Kennedy Center, and my life was changed.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh my gosh, black and brown ballerinas, I want to be a ballet dancer.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I was very much on the ballet track for quite some time and I like got very intense in the ballet moment.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I actually wasn't even really introduced to jazz dance until like in terms of like codified training, until after college, because I went to New York University and I was doing very much modern dance, downtown dance, like the ghoulie rolling on the floor kind of stuff.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so the mixture of that with my very heavy ballet training, I think really lended itself to jazz dance and all the many varieties of jazz dance, which is now where I kind of make my life and my livelihood in jazz dance.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: So I have been dancing, I have danced for quite a few dance companies, but I booked my first Broadway show back in 2013.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then from there I just became a Broadway gal.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like once I got those Laducas on, I couldn't get them off.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I love it.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I like I remember when you got your first Broadway show, and I was just like, finally, like I was just like rooting for you because it it's just so meant to be for you.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's like always such a pleasure being in auditions alongside you and like seeing you put that work in.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's even more important and to learn that you started dancing at 13 years old and now look where you're at already, where there's so many people who are, you know, dancers and parents, and I'm sure we'll get into it, who are seven, who are eight, whose kids are like phenomenons and amazing at eight, but it's like they've already put this work in.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, are they are they gonna have a long career?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: When they're you know what I mean?
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like you felt like you were probably playing catch-up to some of these dancers who had been doing this for six years prior to you beginning.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: And again, that's where that process comes into play.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: So totally.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh grateful to have you both.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_01: Let's jump into this awesome chat.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yes, thanks again for both of you for being here.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Really excited to just dive into this and also just get some of your personal experiences with product versus process.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I want to start with teachers.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like a lot of every all young dancers sort of initiation into dance and the way they view dance throughout their lives really comes from the teacher's perspective.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: It comes from the top down.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so we do, like Courtney was saying, see a lot of kids who want to rush, who want to get to the end result, who just want to do the cool things before they do the basic things.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So, my question to y'all is in your experience, either as teachers or with a teacher that you've had, how did they promote the value of process over product?
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have that experience?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do you have the opposite experience?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: You know, how did that work for you guys?
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I would say for me, because I started so late, my personal process was like, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry, hurry.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: And because I wanted to catch up and I was and I felt so anxious to catch up, but I felt so grateful, honestly, that my training started in very classical ballet because there is no rushing with ballet.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like you can't rush to get on point, or at least at my studio, it was very much like it doesn't matter how old you are, it doesn't matter, you know, what your muscle tone is.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: We have to make sure that you are actually strong enough to do this and that you have everything that you need technique-wise to be safe to dance on point.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember that being such a thing that I wanted to do so quickly because I saw it and it looked pretty.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I just was like, I can do that.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I was really, really, really grateful to my school.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I went to a school in Virginia called Russell School of Ballet, and it was very classical ballet, and they took it very seriously, putting students on point.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't something that was like a parent could come and call and be like, I want her to do this or whatever.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was not that at all.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a mutual exchange of trust between the students and the teachers, as well as the teachers and the parents, to be like, trust us when we say that we will let you know when she is ready to do A, B, C, D, E, F G.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I really am so grateful for that because I didn't have the the wherewithal or the the maturity really to understand the deciphering of that.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought, well, I want to do this, so I should be able to do it.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really, all of my teachers at Russell's were very much that way.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I was kind of on a fast track, I think that they kept me on a fast track that was in line with where I was technique-wise.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't just, oh, we want to hurry up and get her ready because she's capable.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like she's capable.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we want to make sure she stays healthy and safe.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to your teachers because that's that's the way it should be.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's the way it should be with the true the mutual exchange of trust.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: I love that you said that because you know, there's there, of course, there's instances where like maybe the trust isn't there and that's a whole nother podcast.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: But when it is there, trust the trust.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: Trust that you can trust the people, you know, it's like a whole layered thing.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: And we've said that many times on the podcast, like, trust your teachers.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to make sure that you're finding a space that you can that you like, it's like you said, everyone's on the same page.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: Everyone needs to be on the same page.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I do think that there's a lot of pressure these days of social media, which, like, you know, not aging ourselves, but like back when you were 13, there wasn't really social media, you know?
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, there wasn't that pressure.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_02: Studios were just doing what they knew and doing what they were trained to do instead of seeing all this other influence surrounding them of, oh, look at this studio doing that, look at the studio down the street doing that.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: Should I be doing that?
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, maybe I need to do implement this, this, and this.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's a big issue in our industry currently, which is rushing that process because everyone's just seeing what's next, what's next, and wanting to achieve it way faster than they should.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_03: In thinking about this, I've been looking back at like my journey to get where I am.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: And I start like I started dancing when I was three, but like I didn't actually take it seriously until I was like out of college already.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, probably like 20, 21.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so a lot of times when I get asked how long I've been dancing, I'll say when I started when I was 20, because like I got foundational stuff before then, but like I didn't actually clock it as an investment until then.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_03: And when I came back into the space, I came in primarily as a tap dancer first.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: So I was like working in Boston with companies and like with mentors as a tap dancer.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I think fundamentally speaking, when you look at like the core of tap dancing, I don't think it's ever really been commercialized, which is so beautiful.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's like this like precious little nugget.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: But within that, I think when I came back in, there was always this like inherent understanding of the fact that there would be a process with the work.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: And that's actually something that I've been navigating as a teacher because when I used to teach like at a studio like every week, you know, it's so easy, so to speak, to have kids be invested in like hip hop contemporary acro because there's an immediate payout.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like you put in the work for the hour of class and then you achieve the aerial, like A plus good job.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_03: Like, okay, you work with me and you get a pickup, and then now we can do them faster.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_03: And it's just like not the same like pizzazz as like you know, other styles.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so also in my journey too, I feel like a lot of the mentors that I have been lucky to have have been people who've achieved success, whatever that meant to them in their 30s and like are still working towards their success now.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: So I feel like for my process particularly, the the process has always just I've always understood that I'm in it for the long haul.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm not trying to max out when I'm 15, 16, 17, like that's not gonna be where I find my joy.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be like putting in the years of work.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't know, I've been thinking about that as somebody stepping into teaching and education.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how do you, I don't know, how do like how do you as a teacher find that connection other than just like practicing putting in the work and like building the trust with your students and and finding that like dynamic there?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_03: Because I'm like, it's it's it is really hard, especially with social media.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I get this from behind the camera too, but like that's fully changed what everybody's looking for as the output from the experience.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_03: But like the I don't like it's it's hard to get kids to to invest long term if it's not gonna happen overnight, and if it's not something flashy and really cool that you can like show to people and have it go viral, like it's not it's not that deep to them, which is so interesting.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's another layer.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's well, and that's why we were saying before we started, like we we we had this nugget of a concept on episode whatever it was a million years ago, and it's just like it's this huge layered conversation that's not just like wear tights or don't wear tights, wear shoes or don't wear shoes.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it's way deeper than that.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, JJ, you brought up that you're a tapper.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: So, and by the time this episode airs, this will have been a month ago.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: But last night in real time, I went back to a tap class for the first time in about seven years.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: I've had multiple ankle surgeries, I have been afraid, I have been in pain, I have been all the things in my head.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: And all we did last night was rudiments for an hour, pretty much.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a teacher I'd never taken from before.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: What is the level?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: What was it called?
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_02: Just adult tapping.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: It was called adult open tap.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's here in Montclair, you know.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we have out, we have very good teachers in the area just because of where we are.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: But I was not about to go to Bravo Dance Center and take, you know, Dre Torres's class or like some I'm we're in here.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: But rudiments, I humbled number one, because I'm a very good tap dancer, but it's been seven years, and rudiments are not flashy.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing flashy about that, but the process of getting my body back into those heel drops versus a weight shift versus whatever, it was humbling and it was beautiful because the process to me at this point is so much I don't care about the wing and the flash and the and the double toe stands.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I nope, get me back into the process because that's what feels good.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the teacher himself was teaching kids before he taught the adult class that night.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he was so excited about the rudiments combination.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: And for a kid, to me, it's like if you're not excited about it teaching it, they're not going to be excited to learn it or to master it or to come home and practice it if all you're doing is treating it as para-diddle, paradiddle, paradiddle stamp.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, okay, well, that's really boring.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: Like, be more excited about it, and then they'll be more excited about it.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_03: I would love to push back a little on the nuance of that because I think actually competition dance shifted the space before social media did.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_03: Because I remember I did like a tap solo growing up, and like there was literally one section that I did like double pickups, and it was like, see it that, see it, see it, see it, see that, see that, see that, see that.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_03: Like for like too many counts, but like work, like show off the skills, girl, you know, with your thing.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_03: But like I remember like that wasn't even the part that I liked of the solo.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_03: And I remember like walking off stage, and my dad was like that one part where you sound like a horse, like 10x.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: I was like, all right, like.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: But it's funny because I think there's two conversations.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think when you think about tap dance, like you think about stormy weather, like the Nicholas Brothers, like the huge movements, like the stuff that is digestible outside of a tap dancer's perspective.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas, like for me, if you're like cutting it and then you go into like a nice like triple time, like you know, like open third section, and then you find the swing, like to me, that's like God.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_03: But like when you think about like what's digestible, particularly to people who don't understand tap dance, maybe don't know the nuance of it.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_03: And then when you start looking at the competition space, like who's who's on the panel, like it has to read to the people that are in the room.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so sometimes I don't think it matters if the teacher is excited sharing it, because I love like sharing it and I love the process of that, but like it's actually genuinely so hard to link the dots of like getting kids to understand that, like, no, the rudiment is gonna be what actually helps you understand the fundamentals and the mechanics within your ankle to then be able to do the not only the single wing but the double wing.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_03: But like, can you push it to a triple wing?
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_03: Like, like, you know, so I think, but it's it's what's digestible personally, what's digestible publicly, and then also like I don't know.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes I don't think the teacher's excitement actually plays into the kids.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's patients level, and you can explain it to the kids until you're blue in the face, but I think it's it's the it's how bought in they are.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, Corey, I don't know, like from your style to like I remember watching you teach, and like even the buy-in to like this the specificity of like your torso and stuff.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do you feel like that translates to like your world too?
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: I do actually.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really interesting with with students, and especially, I mean, I was introduced to saucy material, you know, well, not that long ago.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are some dancers in this industry who have been doing it for a really long time.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked with Anne Riking and all of that, and I was definitely not one of those people, but I realized that there was just so much patience involved with that technique specifically.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And because, you know, of my late start to, I think I in inherently understand this idea of having patience with my body because I had to.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't able to just like morph myself instantly into the dancer that I wanted to be or into the dancer that I am now.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's really really interesting that I think this ties into an overarching idea too, about around the lack of patience in general.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I find when I'm teaching and specifically in this Flossy style, dancers feel so uncomfortable with that element of patience, of having to really work through textures in their body and figuring those things out in the midst of class.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to like look cool, or they want to like, you know, have the video and post the video of them looking cool.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like there's so much to it, there's so much nuance to it physically.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I also think that there's I've been having this conversation a lot with teachers at steps around like historical context too, and how important that is.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like understanding, I always talk about where I'm referencing things from.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't make anything up.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, and that takes a lot of patience too, to like understand that you know, your mental connection to what you're doing will affect how it reads.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have a respect, and I know tap dancing is the same thing, there's so much historical context to these steps and where they're coming from.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't know that, I think it waters down the movement and it waters down your ability to really shift the atmosphere as a dancer when you don't really know why you're doing things, but that takes a lot of work.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: That is part of the process.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say, I feel like that actually like factors in so much because tap dance is so like we always bring in the ancestors with us.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_03: And I think as you do that within the art form, you understand that like the mastery of what's what got you here.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, what you're doing is so much bigger than this class.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_03: And then as you're bringing in all those voices of people that you have learned from, who learned from so and so, who learned from so-and-so, who learned from so and so like as you go up the chain, I think you understand that the art form itself is in process.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so, how can you ever be a product within something that's still in process?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Mind blown.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: Mind blown.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 26:22
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• 26:28
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• 26:38
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• 26:41
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• 26:48
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• 27:01
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• 27:06
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• 27:11
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• 27:23
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• 27:31
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• 27:32
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• 27:42
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, there's there's so much good conversation happening, and it's all it's all so real and so necessary.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: And going back to what you were saying, JJ, about the rudiments and the foundation of what you're doing to then lead you to those triple wings, that is, and that can be applied, that scenario can be applied to every single style of dance, to acro, to jazz, to ballet, to anything contemporary.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, it's that pressure of, I want my aerial, but you don't even know how to do a cartwheel.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, how do we how do we get there?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: And kids just think, well, if I just hurdle and try it and fall a million times, I'm gonna eventually get it.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like, no, actually, there are mechanics and skills and foundational basics that you need to understand and learn.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to put the work in and you have to be excited to learn that.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: You have to know it takes time.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: There is a process, it's not gonna happen overnight.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_02: And also understanding that it needs to be technically correct in the process because you can just flip upside down with bent legs, flexed feet, and it's dangerous, you know, and you could get injured.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_02: And and that's why I think when I think back at like where this conversation came from, this was discussed in our Keeping Dancers Physically Safe episode.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: So we were talking about that, and then we were like, you gotta remember the process.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just about the product.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: And we're like, oh my God.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a and that's what we're trying to dri drive home here is putting in the time, putting in the work, focusing on your technique training, setting your goals if you want to, but know that it's not gonna happen overnight.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's not an immediate success, that microwave oven type of uh success that Brandon Cornet said many, many episodes back.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, yeah.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: I want, um, Corey, I want to hear a little bit from you because I remember several years ago, I think right when you were coming out of like maternity leave, you had posted some videos on social media being very open and honest and transparent about like getting back into dance and getting back into movement and how that process was for you.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's important for people to hear that like, you know, it is hard sometimes.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Would you would you be willing to speak a little bit to that?
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, anyone who follows me on social media probably will say that I am 100% more than an open book about my journey and and the things I've experienced in a very honest way because I just never won't so great.
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that must be so easy because there's like been no part of my journey that's been easy whatsoever.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I I will say that talk about product and process and the and the differentiations in that particular point in my life, because you know, as dancers, we're hyper aware of our bodies and we're hyper aware of what it feels like to be inside of those bodies and to be moving inside of those bodies.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so to have anything feel off, we are so keen into that.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_00: And after having a child, I mean, it was the most like hurricane like experience that I've ever had physically.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: And even when I would look at myself in the mirror and like even when I like looked at myself and I recognized what my the shape of my body again, I still didn't feel the same.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there was so much of like going back to the beginnings of why I love to do this thing, kind of what you were just saying around this idea of like enjoying the process, because there has to be an element of surrender to where you are at that particular point in your training.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I, having been a professional for many years up until that point, I had to just surrender to the fact that I had to get to know my body 100% all over again.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: There were so many things that felt different.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing felt the same.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't feel like it's really hard to describe that sensation of just like feeling out of your body, but that's really what it was.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't feel grounded at all.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And there were a lot of moments where I felt like I was resisting that feeling of just like, why can't I just feel the way I felt before?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized that the second that I sort of surrendered to this is where I'm at now, I'm gonna be a different dancer.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to have to start from the very beginnings with what I enjoy, what I love, and rebuild those things.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: And now at this place that I'm at now, I'm like, I'm so much better of a dancer now than I was before I had my child because I was willing to surrender to that process of rebuilding and recalibrating everything that I knew about my body.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this can apply too to a growth spurt, to an injury, to a dancer taking a couple of years off because they're not sure if they want to do this anymore and coming back.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: We hear these stories all the time.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, not definitely not as drastic as giving birth, but like similar situation.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's so real.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: And like I, and I actually, for the first time in my career, post-pregnancy sustained an injury during my season of Roquettes in 2022.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: I tore my hamstring during the dress rehearsal.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I had never up until that point had an injury like that where I would have needed to like fully sit down.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: And that was really humbling too.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's like one of those moments where you're like, dang, like I am working so, so hard and I have to just rewind.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: I have to rewind and I gotta restack.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I only took four days off from Radio City before I was back doing that crazy schedule.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that was another process too, of like learning how to make friends with my pain, learning how to make friends with like feeling uncomfortable while I was on stage and not really being able to go for it in the way that I'm used to doing on stage.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Number one, because of the job.
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like the job requires a lot of constraint and restraint, but also because I was injured.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so if I moved my legs or turned in an angle that was too quick or too sharp, it would hurt and I would re-ignite the pain.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I had to be really like hyper mental in that experience because I had to sort of key into what I was experiencing my body and recalibrate.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we've, I'm sure we've all had similar scenarios happen, whether it was through our training years or whether it was when you are actually at an audition, you haven't even got the job yet.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen it happen to people, I've seen it happen in rehearsal before opening night.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen it happen while you're six months into a show.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it it happens at all points.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: And unfortunately, injury is possible uh for dancers.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_02: And especially, you know, I think I think that story is really refreshing to hear how you came out of that and how you powered through that, inspiring to young dancers to hear because I think that a lot of dancers think that it's the end if they get an injury where their doctors say, you need to sit out for three months, four months, you need to let this heal.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of dancers are just eager to just rush back in and get back into the studio because they're gonna miss competition and mom spent all this money.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like we have to remember that there it takes time for our bodies to adjust and we could be doing more damage than good if we rush back in.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that that can be a hard thing to navigate for young dancers, especially, but also know that even professionals deal with the same type of experiences as well.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I would like to go back to that little hint of talking, and this ties in perfectly because JJ, you do videography and things, but that little touch that we discussed about how we have that pressure of social media now, and everything is on camera now.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: And we almost think that, you know, if when you watch a video, right?
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And let's even talk in the class setting, and we did a whole episode last season on videography in the classroom.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: So everyone go listen to that because there's probably some points that we're gonna talk about here, but like I'd like to hear y'all's perspective.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's the product, even though it's a class, right?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: We've turned it, we've turned classes into a product now.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_02: When class is supposed to be about training and is about the process, exactly.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: So, like now we have cameras in the classroom, there's people in our face, lights are there, people have outfits on.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_02: We're supposed to be perfect for that camera when you just learned that auphyry an hour ago and it hasn't even marinated in your body.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: And this applies to not just professional dance classes, but also at dance conventions, even in studio classes these days.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: What are our thoughts on this whole phenomenon of of cameras and the product of being camera ready so quickly?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: I have many.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I feel like this is kind of this is kind of the space that I've been in for the past few years.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: First of all, I think there's a differentiation between New York and LA on this conversation.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_03: Second of all, I experience, and I think this is rarer, but like I feel it in the front end behind the camera.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: So I'll start with New York LA because I feel like that's an easier conversation.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_03: The pr the idea of being camera ready at the end of the class, I think is necessary in certain situations because, for example, I've d I directed a music video shoot one time where we the choreographer and I like sent out the choreography ahead of time to the dancers.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_03: They learned it off of video, they came in knowing it, they had a 15-minute rehearsal, and then the camera went up.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: So, like they had the tools, and like that's what you train to do here in LA.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: Like, you train to be quick at the process because financially we only have X amount of time in the space, and we know we need to get these shots done.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_03: And and if the space is actually really, really small, then turns out you actually do have to dance on top of each other, but it does still have to be full out and you can upstage the artist, but you have to be big.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_03: So, like, there's all these things that are actually really, really, really necessary.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_03: And so I do think that there is merit to classes where the process is being product ready very quickly.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_03: I just think that the class has to name that that's the goal.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's fine.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_03: I like really genuinely do, and so especially as a dancer in this space as well, like it's such a fun challenge to walk in and be like, no, how do I like embody this, find the calmness, find the performance, find the drive, find the nuance in an hour and a half because it's possible.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_03: So, how do I do that?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's the work in one sense.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_03: And then in the other sense, it's like class is training.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_03: I gave this analogy last night when I was teaching my tap class at Athletic Garage here in LA, that I think sometimes class has to be viewed as like grocery shopping, where you go to the store and you get your ingredients, and then you go home and you cook a meal, and then you make that meal like four times, and then you're like, you know what, this meal has been really good.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_03: It's starting to feel less good.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: And then you go back to class to grocery shop to get more ideas to go home and put in the work again.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I don't think there's a better or worse than that.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's more of a what is your goal?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_03: What are you, what are you seeking to achieve?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_03: Where are your priorities?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you do want to work in the industry in LA, I do think that there's merit to learning very quickly and being proficient in that because that is the work.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_03: You're gonna get jumped on set in 10 minutes and you're gonna have changes thrown at you as soon as the camera's up, and then the choreographer might say, actually, can you guys flip to the left and then can you run that back this way?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, great, ready, three, two, one, we're rolling.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like you have to be ready for that, but also there's merit to just like growing for the growth's sake.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_03: So that's what I'll say for for the New York LA dichotomy of this.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_03: If we look at the the the other, the other end of the spectrum, I think it's the in front of the camera, behind the camera.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I, as a videographer, try to be so careful coming into dance spaces, and oftentimes I'm lucky enough that the classes that I get to film are led by people who are like, JJ, do you have anything to say before we go on camera?
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then I get to kind of just be like, hey guys, like I'm just your local neighborhood JJ.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's nothing big.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's you're you're really me technically.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's just I'm capturing what I see, and I'm the like I'm capturing what I see, and then I'm getting to share that back with the world.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_03: So it's it's interesting because behind the camera, it's like I see it, and I'm like, it's really not that deep.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's just me capturing a process, but being on the dancer side of it, it's like, oh my god, the camera's coming in, the lights are on.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I need to be, I need to be perfect.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_03: Whereas from behind the camera, I'm like, I'm just gonna capture this minute of your life.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_03: And if you like it, great.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: And if not, in 10 years from now, like look back on this little memory and enjoy how uncomfortable you were at the time seeing where it got you next.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Love it.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really that's a really interesting perspective.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: That helps me too, because I'm trying to pick my wedding videographer and I'm like, but it's gonna be, I'm gonna remember this forever, and it's uh, but that's really I like to think of like in 10 years, is it gonna be this deep?
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love those analogies that you made, too.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Jay.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_00: I love, love, love.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's also like, I don't work in LA, but I have done a couple of TV shows where that's been the case, where it's like, no, actually, we're switching this, we're doing this, and four, three, two, one, let's go.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you have to understand, and it's so imperative that you know how to do that.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: But one thing that I have been constantly saying lately in my classes, because I've been teaching a lot more over these past couple of months, and I have been saying to my students, the stakes couldn't be lower.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's been such a great like icebreaker for a lot of them.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I've just repeated that mantra constantly because for some reason we've turned class into this high-stakes scenario where it's like, if I mess it up, I'm a horrible dancer.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: If I if my balance is off today, I should quit.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And if I messed up and it's on camera, everyone's gonna think I'm a sucky dancer.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of these things, these narratives that we tell ourselves when we're in class.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I understand that the camera is a necessary part of the business.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I really appreciate the medium.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's so beautiful and amazing to be able to have these little time capsules of moments in time with class and to be able to see yourself back and to watch yourself and really enjoy your training up until that point and enjoy the things that you've been able to accomplish up until this point.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: But I do think that the thing that is important, and I think this onus is really on the teachers, is to continue to reiterate in those classes that are not denoted as things that specifically are to prepare you for being on set for a job.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're just taking a regular class, which is typically what I'm teaching, I think it's really important for the teacher to continue to foster an environment that makes the students feel like it's okay to fail.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_00: Because without these mediums being in class, it already feels pressurized in New York.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I can only speak to New York.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_04: Yes.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: It feels like this element of just like competition and everyone feels like everyone's watching them all the time and when really no one cares about anyone but themselves in class.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so just continuing to reiterate these things because I know as a as an avid class taker and also as a teacher, what that feels like as a student to be on the other side of it and to feel this like, oh my gosh, like I don't want to mess up because I don't want people looking at me.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I also understand what it feels like when a teacher says to me, everybody relax.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like everyone take it down a few notches.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: We're just dancing, we're working.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: The point of this class is to explore and to actually jump off the cliff and fail.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: Because when you're in an audition, you don't have that luxury, right?
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like the stakes are higher in an audition when you have to just get it and you have to just do it.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: But in class, there literally are no stakes.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: It really is about just how can I get better here?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: The only way you can get better is by continuing to push yourself in the process of like, I'm gonna stand in the front.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: I never stand in the front.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna make that choice to do that this time.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know the combination, but pressure makes, you know, diamonds.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: So let me just go to the front and try it.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I'm in an audition and I don't feel comfortable enough in the combination, but it's time for my group to go.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you do.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just gotta do it.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're placed in the front, you're placed in the front.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so these are skills that you need to be practicing in class when the stakes couldn't be lower, so that when the stakes are high, you don't get thrown off of your balance beam, you know?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: Brilliant.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say it.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: I could jump back in on that actually.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like it's so funny because we get so obsessed with the product, but I think there's actually a process to getting good at making product quickly, and that is a process in and of itself.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: And when I behind the camera have like done the math, I'm like, I actually think that bringing cameras into spaces in the first place was kind of a good idea.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: Because if you think about the time before cameras were in classes, which is like before I was born at this point, but like if you think about that time, there was no way to practice the pressure, and you didn't get to learn how to be on set until you were on set.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_03: So if you weren't one of the 20 dancers booking work consistently, you didn't get to practice that.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_03: So you until you got in the fire, and then it's already too late.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_03: You're either asked to step off the job because you're not like getting it, or you know, like you succeed under that intense amount of pressure.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's actually a wonderful opportunity to treat it as a tool when the camera comes in, because then you get to practice the pressure of being in the product.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_03: And like something I've been doing lately before I walk out when I get called out in a class is I'll turn to someone next to me and be like, I'm so nervous, and then I go because I'm like, then you've just invited in the thing that we're all trying to pretend doesn't exist.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, okay, now I'm dancing with my nerves.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: So me and my nerves are about to go duet in front of this person and their machine, and I'll get to look at that later and giggle about maybe the fact that I like missed a step or whatever.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_03: But I also think there's merit to practicing the recovery.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I think about all the times that I've been B cam onset.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: So like there's a main camera shooting, and then I'm the secondary camera.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of times I'm pulling these like wonderful, really, really beautiful tight shots.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_03: And let's say that I'm focusing on like dancer A and there's dancer B and dancer C, right?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: If my camera as the B cam is on dancer A and dancer C messes up, like the count of two, right?
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_03: And then jumps back in and recovers.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: I might have been focusing on camera A and the director might have liked that shot better anyway.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so the fact that you messed up for two counts actually doesn't really matter because that's not the shot that we were gonna go for anyway, regardless of if you had killed it or not.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_03: Like it has nothing to do with you.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_03: So we like this shot better, but then turns out actually your recovery back in, you had a little bit more fight, and we love the fire in your eyes.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: It turns out A Cam was on you during that.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: And so that little bit of fire that we have is now the main shot in the music video that's in the promo.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_03: Like it's there's a practice to that pressure and that fight that you feel never goes away.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that it's actually a wonderful thing that we get to have the product in the classroom when it's treated like that.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's yeah, it's spooky scary if we don't talk about it like that.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's a it's it's interesting.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to spend too much I want to just put my thought in there as far as the product and videography and things.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: And again, listeners go listen to that episode because I've talked about this there.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: But I do agree.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: I I see I see both sides to it.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think there's a good and a bad.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: I feel like the pressure of the steady can that's like right in your face, that's moving around, that feels like I'm literally on a set for like a movie, a movie, but I'm in a dance class, that is stressful.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that it feels like I've booked the job.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: It feels like I am quote unquote auditioning-ish for the job, and I need to be perfect in those scenarios versus a camera that's just like on the side or just like not in my face and just like getting the content and it's taking in like the class for the class versus a performance for the camera.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's just a different type of videography, like way to video a class.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: But if a camera is just kind of a fly on the wall in the space versus a per whole production in the space, it's a very different experience of how I take my class.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I I, as a class taker, would prefer the fly on the wall videography because I'm focused on me.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing my thing.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: I'm taking my class and oh, there just happens to be a camera that captured it, you know, versus taking me out of the element and having me be in a solo and having me be in a trio and like all these things where it feels like an audition and it feels like I need to be product ready perfection.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: And we are experiencing that so much heavily in the dance convention space.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: And like people complain about this all the time, like, oh, all you do is just call out the good kids that are gonna do it in the select group and blah, blah, blah, and they need to be perfect right away and all of that.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: What about the dancers who are still exploring and still discovering?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, they don't get those chances and they don't get to showcase what they're learning and things like that.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like the expectation of already being product ready, even as a training dancer.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: And we're right now where we're talking, we're kind of talking professional.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I will say that I have noticed the younger generation of dancers are really good at being product ready really quick.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe this is a good thing for them.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's all of us oldies over here that are playing ketchup because we didn't have cameras in the classroom before.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_03: And I think a lot of that has to do with social media.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_03: Cause I was gonna say, like when I come into film space, typically my MO is I start being a fly on the wall and I get like some shots of the teacher kind of doing their thing because my personal happy place is getting to kind of capture the space and show people who aren't necessarily in the room right now the magic that can happen under your guidance just for that little period of time.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_03: Like that's my favorite thing to kind of encapsulate.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_03: But there is pressure from social media to like get something that the teacher can post.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_03: And then, you know, if I'm shooting in a dance studio where it's a little bit darker, if I don't put up a light, then the footage isn't gonna look good.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_03: And then the dancers who were excited to see themselves are gonna be really upset at the fact that it doesn't look good, especially when you hired someone who's a professional to come in there to do the work.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm getting paid, so my work unfortunately also has to be good.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_03: So to do that, sometimes I do have to put up a light or two or three or four because the space is just so dark.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_03: And I unfortunately need my camera to be able to adjust to the light in the room and and and make you look good.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: And and then we need to, you know, if I have a group of seven, it's gonna be really hard to like crop it down to a real.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_03: So solos shoot really well because that's just so easy to just like have it be ready to post and share.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_03: And then on the educator end of it too, it's like we unfortunately also need media right now because people won't take classes that they don't know what they're gonna have as the experience.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_03: So the teacher, unfortunately, also needs that type of shot every so often just to just to let people know what they're doing, because maybe someone who might not be in motivated to go might be a little bit more motivated seeing the work that they might be putting in.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_03: So it's there's all these different factors because I hate putting up the lights, I hate feeling the room shift towards me.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, I'm just like I'm just JJ.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I don't think I'm that scary, hopefully.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I try to come in as quietly and like calmly as I can, but like, yeah, I gotta put up the lights, and like, yeah, I have to get the gimbal, and I'm gonna move around because it's gonna make me look like a little bit better than just me standing there straight because your friend can do that on an iPhone, and then I don't need to be here.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: But like then I feel it as a dancer too, and I'm like, stop.
• 51:25
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• 52:37
  SPEAKER_02: I do think that, you know, this era of videoing everything when it comes to dance class, another good to it is that you can film yourself in the process and see your progress through time with video.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that is a really great training tool that we didn't really have access to, Leslie and I, when we were young because iPhones didn't exist, cameras weren't everywhere and accessible.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you rarely got to see yourself dance back unless you went to competition and bought the the competitive video.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: So now, you know, you can analyze your every single move, you can study yourself, you can play it back, rewind it, do it again, film it again, whatever it is, revisit the combination.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: I think there is some really great that's a great part of the process, uh, is to be able to self-correct yourself, is to be able to see what you're what's working, what's not.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that can help you progress even quicker as a dancer and and be able to set those goals.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I do see that as a bonus for um video in our life now.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: But I would love to dive into a competition uh question.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_02: So Lizzie, do you want to jump in?
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, so we are lucky enough to have JJ on the roster of IDA.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: So excited to get you out this season.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: But so, and this is kind of I'm interested to hear, and you have been so good this episode about like giving real world examples.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm hopeful that maybe you have one for this.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this will be something that competitive dancers really are excited to hear about.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: So as a judge, all you see is the product.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: We never see your process.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_01: We never see the class hours and the rehearsals and where you've come from.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: All we see is what you present in those two and a half minutes.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: But in my opinion, as a judge, we can tell if a process has actually taken place by what you put on stage.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: Do you agree?
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you think those little tells are that, oh yeah, that dance has put in the work versus, oh, they're not really kind of in the in the the progress era, you know, or process era rather.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think a lot of things are are coming up right now.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_03: When I was thinking about process versus product before I jumped online today, one of the things that I clocked for myself is that I attribute the process to community building a lot of the time.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_03: Because a lot of times, like when you're in a company or in a show or even on set, you're on that project for whether it's 24 hours or you know, 17 months or two years or whatever it is, you're in that space with those people for so long and you get to really build a connection with them.
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think 99% of the process work isn't actually about the five, six, seven, eight, because that's always adjustable.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's about the dynamic that you have with each other.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_03: And so I talk about this a lot as a judge because I find it difficult, honestly, to be transparent to judge a lot of times because I'm like, I don't know what it took you to get here.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like you might have been so nervous that before you got on stage today, you were like in the bathroom, like shaking and crying and unsure if you would be able to walk on stage, and you came out and gave your best, which might have given you a goal, but like for you that day, like you deserve the triple diamond elite, whatever, because you you made it here today, and that was big enough.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_03: Or, like, I've seen kids compete, and then later after the competition wraps, someone will let us know that that student tore their MCL last year and this is their first season back, and it makes that one dance that they did that much more impactful because their process to getting back here was so much different than everyone around them.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_03: So I think for me, the easiest way to tell about the process, specifically for like group dances, duos, trios, is the dynamic that you have on stage.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_03: I love the moments when students actually in real time connect with each other because it's such a genuine thing.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_03: And as an audience member, it makes me be like, oh my God, what was the joke?
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what happened in that rehearsal that one time that makes you guys look at each other like that and just get that little like hee hee, like what did you do?
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_03: Like, I want to know.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_03: And now I'm immediately like triple invested because I just have so many follow-up questions of the person.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_03: But I think I mean, you obviously can see the hours that that students are putting in when they hit the stage.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's just really hard because there's so many things that go into performance.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_03: And you know, I I the first thing that came into my head was how comfortable you are with your solo that that tells me how long the process was, but that's not always true.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_03: Maybe you just woke up.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_03: I remember like there was competitions that I would go to as a kid, and you know, I would just wake up on the wrong side of the bed, and my mom would try a little bit too hard to like, you know, do my lipstick the right way, and it just wasn't working, and then I'd walk out on stage in a bad mood, and it didn't matter how comfortable I was last night because we're comfortable and it's not gonna go well.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_03: So I think there are just so many factors that go into it, and I think that's one of the toughest parts about judging is looking at the product and and realistically, when I go down my book at the end of the weekend, it's I I just have to block it out and go product to product to product to product to product to product because we can only score you on what we see that day in that one moment from my own perspective.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_03: But I think that they're the little tells that come through are just like the little nuance of that transition, like how you articulate through your rib cage.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: Are you actually breathing in your steps?
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_03: Are you finding that connection to both the audience and the people on stage with you?
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_03: I think those little those little nuances can kind of show us how deep in the process you've gotten.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: But I will say that it's a very, very, very muddy thing.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_03: And I I hate how muddy it is and I wish it wasn't so muddy.
• 58:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and I think that's why I bring this up because you know, we say it all the time.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: Judge, you know, competitions are subjective.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: We're judging you on this one moment in time.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: There's three of us, it's different than it was last weekend.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: You might have gotten up on the wrong side of the bed.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_01: But it's just another point to drive home that competitions, the quote unquote project or product isn't the end all be all.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's it can't be.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: It can't be because if it is, then I think you're doing this for the wrong reason because of all the things you just said.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_03: And I was gonna say too, sorry to jump in.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_03: I got excited, but I think it's important to remember that, like, and I think this is true for videos in classes too.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_03: Product doesn't always have to mean final.
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it can be true that you're in a process and you have multiple products along the line.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like, look at like, I don't know, applesauces, how many times do they rebrand?
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_03: Or like I'm a vegan and impossible meat just rebranded for like the fifth time.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's still the same product.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's been a product the whole time, but the product is still in process and they're constantly marketing new ways to make it better.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's what competition and class videos could be is that it's a product in the middle of the process where it is a finalized product.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_03: What you put up on stage has to stand for itself.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_03: But like then you go back to the studio with your team and you work on it again, and then you go out the next weekend and you get more feedback.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think that's why the critiques are so important to me, because I'm trying to give you my whole heart on a platter in any way that I can help you in your journey with this process.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_03: Little products along the way.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and for me, like you were saying, the the little glances between the dancers or the the way the breath works together, those are those are tells for me of your process.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: Another thing for me, especially with younger dancers, is if I see like a mini group who is like giving me the most focus on their preparation for their single pirouette, I can see every single child is like, we're doing this.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_01: Then yes, oh my gosh, you're doing it.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I see that you have put the work in because you're so focused on that one thing that I know you care about.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_01: And even if it takes me out of the moment of your, you know, Lion King dance or whatever it is, I know that you care about that one thing.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so for younger dancers, that's what I'm looking for as a judge to show me that you're actually taking time in class.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you're just slinging around, well, okay, then no, then are you working on pirouettes?
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: You might think you are, but are you?
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't see those markers of the process.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: Real world examples.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_02: And like in the sense that we as judges, and especially judges who have been doing this for a very long time and educators who have been doing this for a very long time, we can tell whether you have put the time in in the process of the technique, the foundational elements and showing up to class.
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_02: We can tell that in your dance.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: And we can also tell the difference between that versus just a very well-rehearsed routine.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think that you can get to the product in those two ways.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: You can either put the emphasis on the training and uh the time spent in class and not as much rehearsal time, or you can do you can flip it around and still achieve a product, but it might be done, it might you've gotten there in different ways.
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I would prefer the to see those tiny little details executed flawlessly be technically speaking, and it will magically happen into your uh your product and in rehearsal.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: You don't need as much rehearsal if you're putting that time in in the training because it's naturally gonna go there versus the opposite where you could have the you know pristine, clean routine that you've spent a million hours drilling, but there's flaws in the process, there's flaws in that technique that we still see, regardless of how shiny and and you know, squeaky clean the dance is executed.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, it it is a fine line, but we can, as judges, tell for the most part when you've put the work in or when you're just well rehearsed.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I I want to just make sure that people understand that because I'm not saying that one way or the other better than the other, but you know, put put in a lot put in the time in the training as well.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's important because it's going to get you to the product in the same way.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_03: I think that the discipline, I think that comes down to just where I've heard about dancers who come back from tours, and one of the things that they prioritize while they're on tour is going to the gym, working out, taking dance classes in the various cities that they're in.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_03: Because when you're on a job like that, I think and I think it's important for dancers who are aspiring to do jobs like tours and shows and things like that.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: If you're on a national tour, you're doing the same choreography five, six, seven, eight times a week.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_03: What you do with your downtime is then fully up to you.
• 1:02:48
  SPEAKER_03: But when you're on the job, you're doing the same numbers again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again, no matter where you go.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_03: So I think then it becomes the discipline of showing up and continuing to rehearse the nuances because when the choreography goes away, whether it's the end of your season, the end of your job, like what was what was backing you up the whole time?
• 1:03:09
  SPEAKER_03: Was it your technique?
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_03: Was it your care for yourself?
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_03: Was it like what were you doing in the downtime?
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_03: Because the choreography is going to become irrelevant at some point.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_03: So what's behind it?
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's fascinating, this this conversation.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm just like, my mind is blown by just being able to like really hone in on this because it's something that I talk about so frequently, but I don't think I've been able to get it as concise as just like process or in process versus the product.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I will say that I think that it's really, really important for people that are successful in whatever it is that they're doing.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, success means different things to different people, but I really take it as a responsibility as an educator.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: I take it as a responsibility as an artist, as a mother, as all of the things that I am to show the process because I don't want anyone to think that any part of my personal journey that they may be admiring or be looking up to is something that did not take a lot of work to get to.
• 1:04:11
  SPEAKER_00: That I did not happen into any parts of my career.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: Everything that I've experienced has been because I have been constant and consistent in showing up and failing and not being the best person in the room and messing up and having that be visible to a lot of people.
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not always fun and it's not comfortable, but it is a part of it.
• 1:04:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that there's something about being able to make friends with that part of your journey that I think will make this pursuit, if you do decide to pursue being a professional dancer, it will make the pursuit so much more enjoyable because you most of your career is going to be the process.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: Most of your career is going to be that gray area.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: You're not always going to be booking Broadway shows and being on set with, you know, pop artists and doing all these cool, shiny things.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: Most of your life is going to be in the studio if you are doing the work.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_00: And that that is the life of a dancer.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's not always about doing these fun, blitzy things.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: It is really grimy work sometimes, but that to me is my favorite part.
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_00: And looking back over my career at this particular point in my life, I have so much appreciation for that part of it.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it's why I continue to do it, even as a professional, that I continue to put myself in class and put myself in spaces that may not always be comfortable for me because I know that all it's going to do is continue to elevate my craft.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that the more we as educators and also as students sort of come from that perspective and continue to be really loud about that.
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that young people who are growing up in a very different area and era than we were with social media and the comparison and all of those things, I hope that we will allow them, even just for an hour and a half, to have reprieve from that.
• 1:05:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that is something that I have constantly made.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_00: My goal as a teacher is to just give my students a little bit of reprieve because I know that it's not realistic to always be like thinking about, you know, process because you we live in New York City or LA or whatever, and you like have to get a job because you got to pay your bills.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: And like there are urgency elements to our life, but to be able to find those little sparkling moments of rest, of like, I'm okay and I'm just working, is so sacred.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that if we just continue to push for those things, even just for moments, ultimately the grand scheme is just gonna get a little bit easier, I hope.
• 1:06:39
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for tuning in to our latest episode all about the product versus the process.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: Special shout out to our guests for joining us, Corey and JJ.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: Be sure to follow them both on Instagram.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_02: You can find JJ at JJ underscore choreography and Corey at KMR8787.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're ever in New York City, be sure to jump into both of our guest classes.
• 1:07:03
  SPEAKER_02: Corey's at Steps on Broadway and JJ's at Broadway Dance Center.
• 1:07:09
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• 1:07:16
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• 1:07:22
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• 1:07:30
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• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_02: Be sure to check out IDA affiliated competition, Decca Dance.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: As dancers themselves, they know what it's like to leave everything they have on stage when they perform.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_02: That's why Decca Dance Competition and their Unconvention is honored to provide a dance surface that works in response to this energy by offering a fully sprung dance floor at every event.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_02: DECA's fully sprung birchwood floor was built by hand just for DECA Dance Competition and their Unconvention by fellow family-owned business Omar Sprung Floors, located in Flint, Michigan.
• 1:08:11
  SPEAKER_02: Providing this floor for DECA dancers will also allow top dancers to be heard crystal clear every time they hit the stage.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_02: DECA's signature 4 Judge panel of specialty educators ensures every genre is adjudicated with expertise and care.
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you'll even find a fifth judge at their table to monitor levels and genres so that every dancer is placed in the best category for them.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_02: IDA will proudly supply judges for DECA's sixth season of competitions in 2025, which includes live critiques for soloists.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_02: And we invite you to learn more about their family-friendly events at DECADancecompetition.com.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: More episodes in season six are coming your way, so stay tuned for how to stand out at auditions, choreography, and team building.