Latest / In Moderation / Skincare Science Ahoy with Dr. Michelle Wong's Expertise

Transcript

Skincare Science Ahoy with Dr. Michelle Wong's Expertise · In Moderation

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: welcome.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Everyone is trying to figure out what episode it is.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I saw it.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: I saw him trying to figure out which episode it was thinking about it and he always comes after me for not knowing what episode is.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: That's all I want to point out, that's it I was actually going to say welcome back to learning how to sell your soul and shill where you learn every grifting technique.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Well, that's a long intro.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: No wonder you're thinking about it.
• 0:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I had to think about it.
• 0:46
  Speaker 3: Today's special guest is Lab Baby, muffin, beauty, bumper Buddy, something like that, something like that.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: It's also a very long name.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: It's as long as your intro.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but besides Oakley, who I have in my lap, we also have Dr Wong.
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: How you doing.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: Not too bad how are you going?
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: Well, she's doing a little sad.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: I scared her.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, it's okay, I'm scaring her.
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: We're just using too long of sentences.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: We need to shorten the sentences.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: Well, how are you doing, Dr Wong?
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: Tell us, why don't you introduce yourself and give us a little what you do on the social medias?
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: So hi, I'm Dr Michelle Wong, also known as Lab Muffin Beauty Science.
• 1:38
  Speaker 3: I was close.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I talk about the science behind beauty products.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: I was close.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: I talk about the science behind beauty products.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: So I'm on all the social media platforms, which is not great for my own mental health, but yeah so.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: I'm on TikTok Instagram.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Don't worry, We'll get into that.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm on YouTube as well, so YouTube long form, not just shorts.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: I tried to do Facebook, but don't really like Facebook.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: Twitter is awful.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I will tell you of all the social media sites like the worst comments you'll get from Facebook.
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: I think it's because people are just older and they're just totally set in their ways.
• 2:17
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter what you say.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: They're just like you're a shill for big pharma, like OK, I guess so.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: I don't get paid from them, but I apparently.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: I just everyone tells me I am, that's okay I'm pretty sure the only people left on facebook are over 40.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: I feel like every social media platform is terrible in its own way.
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Um, like the facebook is the yeah people who believe a like any ai photo is completely real and they'll write wonderful.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: And then yeah.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: And then Twitter is just like the Elon fans.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: And then TikTok is like oh, tiktok is weird.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Tiktok is a mix.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: I feel like it starts off bad and then, once you get funneled into like your little bubble, then it's okay.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: And then, like, if someone wanders in, they get like murdered.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Instagram oh, I don't know.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: Instagram, it's again.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: It's also a bubble thing.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: If you wander outside of your bubble, you realize there's so much terrible it's terrible out there, and then you go back to your safe bubble and it's fine, I think.
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: Instagram it's easier to get outside your bubble, though.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of hate on Instagram.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: I find it's very.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: People will just like lose their minds at the smallest thing, whereas tiktok it's more of a safe bubble the bubble is thicker.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: It is a thicker bubble than on tiktok, than it is on instagram.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: In my yeah, my experience have you guys started posting to um youtube shorts?
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I haven't, because it's a maximum time is 60 seconds.
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: They only give you 60 seconds, yeah that's probably a problem for you.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: That's tough.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's weird because the algorithm like there's so much less of a bubble on YouTube, you just get the most weird set of comments.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: It's a bigger range, yeah.
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: And then YouTube long form, I'm assuming is just people that follow you.
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: So it's all like pretty nice, like mostly, oh, still a mix.
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: It's not as bad as shorts, but it is still like you will still get random people and because it's more anonymous, I guess, um, I guess tiktok is true but you, I don't know, maybe it's partly because I'm also female, um, and I'll just get comments on like fix your teeth, like, just like that just okay.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: So is it more random on on on youtube, where it's just like it'll talk about just anything else.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Is that just every site?
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: oh, I feel like it's more random, yeah, like you get served up to more random people and they'll just feel the need to say things like it's very much um.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: It doesn't feel like anything.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Which one is which?
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: one is your favorite.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: It's very much like the whole thing.
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: Which one's your favorite to post on.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: People will just say things on the internet and pretend you're not a human.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: Do you have a favorite to post on, or is it just kind of like yeah, you like little things about each of them?
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: It doesn't.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: You don't really have a specific favorite.
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: Oh, I don't think I have a favorite.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think instagram is nice because I'm probably more established there, so my bubble is thicker on instagram.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: The bigger you're following, the thicker the bubble.
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: Is what we're taking away from this, okay, so build up a following and stay within that bubble, because when you range outside of that, your mental health there's a correlating decrease in your mental health for how far you get outside your bubble pretty much.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: yeah, I think it's like when you're feeling okay, then try the other platforms and then, when you can't do it, just retreat.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: That's great.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think so.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: First off, what we got to talk about is because you do stuff that's, like you know, similar to us and that we try and like call out some of the fake you know health claims, but ours are more focused usually on nutrition, whereas yours is definitely more on the skincare and you know that side of things.
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: So I mean, we could pretty much start anywhere, but I think the place we got to start is the thing that you know, one of the most controversial, the thing I see probably the most, and you probably take a guess with that.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I feel like you probably already know what I'm saying.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: But's, uh, sunscreen.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: We see, it's just all the time.
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: Anytime I bring that up, doesn't matter how thick my bubble is boy, is that a quote?
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: It doesn't matter how thick my bubble is.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: There's always, there's always people that just just lose their mind over over sunscreen, and it's really interesting because they'll they'll listen to anything else, they'll agree with anything else I have to say, but as soon as I bring up sunscreen, they're like no, this is the one thing that I know is horrible for everyone and everything.
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: And why is that, Dr Wong?
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: What is causing that?
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: I'm just genuinely curious.
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: That's a good question.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's a mix of things.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: So, first off, I think because sunscreen is a drug, um, and because the ingredients in sunscreen they have really long, complicated names like oxybenzone, avobenzone, and that's the American version.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Um, in Australia we have the longer one, so I can't even remember what the avobenzone one is, but it's two, two words and it's like I don't know seven syllables or something.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, I think that has a really big part of it, Cause you know, even in food it's like stranger danger.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: The scarier the ingredient sounds, the more people have that gut reaction, and I mean people's gut reactions.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: They're powerful, Like we evolved to have them.
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: We've had them for millions of years.
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: People just immediately assume it's got a long name, it complicated, I can't pronounce it.
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: Or you hear that even in tiktoks I can't even pronounce the names.
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: We've heard that once or twice that's one really big part.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Um, another big part is because it is a drug in the us and australia but the us is such a big influence on the internet um, because it's a drug, it gets studied a whole bunch.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: So you get all these studies where they have found tiny little dangers, because that's the whole point.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: They want to make sure they've, like, really fleshed out the um evidence base and then they'll be able to pick up on tiny hazards that have only been spotted in, like, I think, for oxybenzone.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: Um, like the, the one that the European union actually acts on is like a tiny change in the male rat fetuses, like some part of their, like some tube in their testicles, something like that.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: It's like the tiniest little change and that's where they actually set the limit.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: But because you're seeing that change, you're seeing like all these other changes in, like rat biomarkers, and because we've got that level of detail, it's really easy to just go on Google Scholarscreens, hazards, and then you'll get a million results compared to, like I don't know, something really unstudied like um strawberry extract or something.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Um, you're not going to get the same sort of level of results and detail of study.
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: So the ewg and organizations like that.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: They can just pick up all these like tiny, tiny, tiny things, make it look like a whole bunch, and then people are automatically scared.
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: Oh, the EWG.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: For the people who don't know what the EW, the environmental working group.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Why don't you?
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: What's your take on the environmental working group?
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: What's your honest opinion?
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: I feel like, since you you're both in the nutrition space, I feel like you probably have way more feelings about it than I do, because I mean, their core has always been the dirty dozen right, it's always just been pesticides, food, and they've only relatively recently I mean it has been like 15 years or something but it's a newer branch of their I don't know their octopus-re reaching scale, where they've got the Skin Deep database.
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: So their big shtick in beauty is they'll take an ingredients list and then they'll automatically match it to entries in their database.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: And their database is just like full of any study they found that has any sort of negative connotation.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: It's all just in there.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: And, of course, like sunscreen ingredients, tons of studies where it's negative, tons of studies where it's positive.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: But you don't see those.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: You just see the giant list of negatives.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Parabens giant list, because they were the most popular preservatives.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: Tons of studies on them, new preservative, less studies, less positive studies, but also less negative studies.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: So completely safe.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: You'll even look up like the same ingredient under a different name.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: And the ewg has two separate entries.
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: One is like six out of ten for hazard, the other one is one out of ten and it's simply because their database is based on vibes based they do not take into account the dosage at all yeah, basically that's like
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: the biggest problem with clean beauty, I assume in nutrition as well.
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: It's just like it's, it's all just vibes.
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: There's nothing quantitative um, because that info isn't there.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: So it's not actually possible to do this.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: You do have to at some point trust the scientists who are making the products it's basically like if you just got rid of the core base of toxicology and then instead fully leaned into if it's natural, it's good.
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: That fallacy kind of that's basically the way I see the environment, the EWG.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: They claim that they're nonpartisan, unbiased, whatever, but they actually started out as an anti-GMO lobby group, so they are anti-scientific advancement, basically.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: Basically, I think your point to your point, dr Wong, though it's so true because you can find you can call me Michelle.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: That makes me feel like I'm like a middle-aged GP.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: To your point, michelle.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: I like what you said about how you can just find negative studies on these ingredients, because you can find that in nutrition.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I mean you can look up various different uh additives, preservatives, uh, bhts when I see a lot, lots of stuff like that, these antioxidants but you're going to find so much more when it comes to something like that's classified as a drug, like you look at.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Actually, if you look at something with skincare longer names, more studies and so yeah, people are probably just gonna it's just more ammo, it's more ammo for those people to say, oh no, that's bad because of this study I found right yeah, and also, um, I guess it's also the reporting as well.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: So, because it's been more studied.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: There's been all these sunscreen stories in the news.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: In late 2019, early 2020, the FDA started looking into sunscreen regulation again, which is great.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: You would hope that your regulatory body is re-examining things based on your evidence.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: And they did a study where they found that they had this assumption, which was I believe it was something like five nanograms per mil.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: If less than that was getting it, it was some sort of threshold.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: If less than that was getting into the blood, they just assumed it was safe because, like, the number of molecules in there would just not be enough to elicit any sort of real harmful effect.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: But then they realized it was above that, and so they published a paper that made headlines.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: It was all this like sunscreens are getting into your blood and it's like actually it's because the FDA has, like special rules around drug regulation.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: People have known that sunscreens have been getting into the blood in the EU.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Like.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: The regulators have recognized this and based their safety assessments on this since, like I think, 1997.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: It was one of the earliest studies, but, yeah, that just kept making the news because of these differences in drug regulation as well, and also part of it is actually, at the moment, animal testing.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: So the US requires particular animal tests for drugs, which, again, like people say, animal testing is a really bad thing.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: But it's actually a positive sign that the regulators care a lot like that they're forcing people to do these somewhat unethical studies these days, like back in the day.
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: Obviously the ethics have evolved, but, yeah, like, the fact that this is still a requirement is actually a sign that regulations are strict.
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, the lack of animal testing is actually one of the reasons why the FDA is still saying chemical sunscreens aren't safe and effective, because this data doesn't exist, because in the EU, sunscreens are cosmetics and so they're not allowed to be tested on animals.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: But anyway, yeah, so a lot of the things that people are pointing to as signs of poor regulation are actually signs of good regulation strict regulation.
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: Interesting.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: So what is your take, then, on this?
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: So the thing I see all the time is don't get chemical sunscreens, because basically it has the word chemical in it, that's essentially it.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: And instead you should get mineral sunscreens.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know chemical, right, the word chemical in it, that's essentially.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: And instead you should get mineral sunscreens.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I know chemical, right.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: And so, like I've seen you talk a lot about mineral sunscreens and how maybe they're not quite as effective, uh, but you know, give us a little, can you?
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, can you give us a little rundown, because that I'm sure that's something we'll get asked about.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Should I just always get a mineral-based sunscreen over a chemical-based one?
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: yeah, that's a really good question and it's one of the most common questions that comes up.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: So, first off, as you both alluded to, everything is a chemical.
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: The minerals which I use, zinc oxide, titanium dioxide literally those are ionic names for chemicals.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Like that's how it works Metal name, non-metal name.
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, first of that, I guess, like what it really comes down to always is, the best sunscreen is the one you will actually use, and that means it has to fit your budget.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: It has to be enjoyable enough that you will apply a lot of it and reapply it regularly, like it's literally just down to that.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Whichever one works for you.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: Now, if we go down a bit more complicated, um, I would generally recommend, if you have sensitive skin, maybe look at a mineral sunscreen or an overseas chemical sunscreen so not US, because you haven't allowed the newer ones because of the animal testing requirements.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Right, okay.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: So the newer chemical sunscreens are they're just nicer to use, really that's the main thing.
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: They're larger, so they don't get into skin as easily.
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: So if you are worried about any sort of endocrine effects, they are, like just by default safer although those aren't really a big concern as well and they're just nicer to use and they're more effective.
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: So there's less of it that needs to be in the product for it to work.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: Well, if you really don't like white cast, if you really care about a light feel and your skin is not particularly sensitive, then chemical sunscreens are probably going to be more enjoyable.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Now, if we go to safety specifically, I guess by default mineral sunscreens are arguably safer because they have larger particles.
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: They're actually solid particles ground into a powder.
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: They're just not going to get into your skin.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Exception would be spray sunscreens and powder sunscreens, because those particles can get into your lungs and that's also not great.
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: But yeah, in terms of skin penetration, that's the case.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: But if we look at how safe all the sunscreens are, in general they're very safe.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier that the limits are generally based on these tiny, tiny effects in animals.
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: So for oxybenzone, the EU recently lowered their limit and, yeah, it was based on the tiniest change in a male rat fetus.
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: So hopefully everyone is aware that when you're pregnant, you just can't do things because you can't eat sushi, raw cheese, that kind of of thing, because fetuses are in a vulnerable state.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: It's like the most vulnerable state, um, as humans.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: So, um, yeah, like the change in a time, a tiny change in a malar at fetus not even like a change that's really negative.
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: I think it was like the length of a particular part of the testicles, like tini change.
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: That's the sort of trigger people are using.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: But it could be negative.
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: That's the thing it could be.
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: That's basically what I feel like with like diet sodas and like sucralose, or like it damages your gut microbiome.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: I'm like, well, it possibly alters your gut microbiome, we don't know Like it could be bad.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: It could be bad, it could be beneficial, we just don't know.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: But it's just easy to say, oh, that's a change, so it's therefore bad because I don't like this thing.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: I already don't like this thing, so it changed.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Another thing that means this thing is bad.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: therefore, yeah, and a lot of people don't realize that toxicology is based on fetuses and embryos and pregnant women.
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: The limits are set for these unborn children and unborn rats in this case.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one myth I see a lot is pregnant women are told not to use chemical sunscreens because it could harm their fetus.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: It's like, well, these safety limits were based on male rat fetuses.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: Not only that, but also it's like in the in the eu and also usually the fda does this as well.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Um, the limit is one percent of the amount that would cause that change.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: So not only is is this like extremely high bar for safety, it's like that bar is 100 times higher than what is actually allowed.
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: So the EU I believe it was 2.2% oxybenzone that they're now allowing.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: The US and the old EU limit was 6%, so you would actually need 600% to get that male rat fetus change.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: There's so many caveats, like if humans were like rats, if you applied the maximum amount every single day tons of stuff.
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: They also like, I think like even with skin absorption, they were like they tested a range of different skin absorptions, got a bunch of different results and they were like, well, we've got a range, so we're going to go with the high, we're going to assume the highest absorption, and so, yeah, there's just tons and tons of margins of safety built on top of each other.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, chemical sunscreens generally are extremely safe.
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: They've also been used for a really long time, especially the ones in the US, which are the ones people tend to freak out about.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: There's a really long history of safe use.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Plus, it's protecting you from something that is bad, which is UV.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: There's a huge body of evidence showing that UVv causes skin cancer.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Um causes other things too, like, I mean, if you care about your how your skin looks, um, then it increases pigmentation.
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: So if you have melasma, any sort of uneven pigment makes that worse, increases wrinkles.
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: Um causes immunosuppression.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: Um, so, yeah, there's like a whole bunch of things that it's protecting against.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: So it's always this like risk benefit, exactly.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: But yeah, and of course, there are also risks with the mineral sunscreen.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: So I mentioned um inhalation.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: That's actually one of the reasons why, um spray mineral sunscreens are bad, because if you inhale the tiny nanoparticles, it is possible that it can cause lung inflammation, which could lead to other.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly.
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: It is possible that it can cause lung inflammation which could lead to other.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly what it is.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: I believe it's.
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: But what if I want to tan my lungs?
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: That's what's new.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: Well, you shouldn't inhale the sunscreen, which you shouldn't have done anyway, so we all win.
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: But what you are saying is we should buy a mineral sunscreen and not make it at home.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, because for everybody listening, my favorite video that michelle did was covering paul saladino making his own mineral sunscreen.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: I, I loved this video so much.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: Was it complete nonsense?
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Of course it was.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Basically he took, you know this, he took a cake uh, was it one of those cake mixers?
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: You know those little hand mixer things and tried to blend up and make his own sunscreen out of.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: It was like beef tallow and like some sort of.
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: I don't even remember what it was, but it was so great.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I just he's like you can eat it too.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I'm like okay, I guess that means it's safe, it's so good, well, well, ironically, um, in the food space there's that whole like titanium dioxide and m&M's thing, um, yeah, which is like well, I mean, now he's eating the mineral sunscreen like titanium dioxide is the other.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: I guess he technically was probably using zinc, um.
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: But yet one of the big problems with mineral sunscreens why I would argue that it's often less safe is, first, off, white, cast like it's white, so you apply less, and the less you have, the more space there is for UV to get into your skin, right.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: But the second thing is because it's white, so you apply less, and the less you have, the more space there is for uv to get into your skin, right.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: But the second thing is because it's solid particles.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Solid particles like to stick together, like particles like to clump, um, it's just physics, right, um, and yeah.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: So if you have a mineral sunscreen, if you leave it in any sort of heat, it tends to just settle and separate and clump and then when it clumps, then I mean with sunscreen you need the particles to spread out so they cover up your skin.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: If they clump, you've got like lumps on your skin, you've got gaps, um, and so mineral sunscreens tend to be less stable.
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: If you look at um, consumer reports, they do this sunscreen study sort of thing.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: It's like a modified version of the official SPF test.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: But, um, if you look at which sunscreens fail, it's usually a modified version of the official SPF test, but if you look at which sunscreens fail, it's usually a whole bunch of mineral sunscreens.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Because of that problem, the clumping problem, Okay, so yeah, basically, I mean, I think, just pick the one that you have access to, you can afford, that, you can apply enough.
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so can you clue me in on this, because I know the sheer basics about sunscreen.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: So I know there's SPF okay, right, and the higher the SPF, the more UV it blocks right, it blocks, but it's not like SPF 40 is like twice as good as SPF 20, right?
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: It actually is.
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: That's what I meant to say I knew, I knew that.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: No, it's a really common myth, and part of the reason it's such a common myth is because the American Academy of Dermatology has it on their website and sunscreen scientists have written letters into peer reviewed journals complaining about this.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Um, without naming them, I think, which might've been where they went wrong.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, so, um, I guess the so the explanation is um, back in the day, when they were working out how to name, how to like, rate different sunscreens, they actually picked spf because it was proportional to protection in terms of how much uv is getting in.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: So a spf 50 sunscreen will block one on, will only let in one on 50 of the uv.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: Um spf 30 will let in one on 30.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: So that's the conversion, um, and this is specifically skin reddening uv.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: So the burning stuff, um, yeah, so if you're using spf 15 versus 30, then spf 15 is letting in twice as much uv, which is what you care about, right, like you don't care about what's not hitting your skin, you care about what's coming in.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Right, Okay, so what do you recommend for just the average person, Like do I need a 50?
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: Should I grab?
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Like does it just depend?
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: Like what's the deal?
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: Generally, I would just go for as high as you can, because back in the day they would argue that higher SPF sunscreens were more expensive, less nice to use, and these days that's just not the case.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: There are tons of really nice SPF 50 sunscreens that are fine and it actually helps with under application.
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: Most people do not apply enough sunscreen.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Most people apply a third to half of the amount they should be applying and SPF is very roughly scaled with amount, Because obviously I know how much to apply and I'm just asking for the people listening but for those people, how much should they be applying?
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: So if it's literally just your face, it's somewhere around a quarter teaspoon.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: Or there's this like two finger thing.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: So if you apply two like fat-ish lines on your fingers, that's just your face For your whole body.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: It's a shot glass which is, I think, 35-ish mils, and if you want to divide it into different parts very roughly, it's one teaspoon per leg and arm, one teaspoon for your face, head, head, ears and neck, one teaspoon for the front of your torso, neck.
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: One teaspoon for the front of your torso, one teaspoon for the back of your torso and how many lines for coating my lungs your lungs are like what was it like area of a tennis court or something right, so a lot so basically a lot of
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: lines of sunscreen when you're going to the beach to get wasted and you have your shot glass, just fill that up first with sunscreen, then apply.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: Then you can consume your toxic alcohol in that, in the shot afterwards.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: So it's all about a balancing act, right, like you, it's not toxic if you add bobby's electrolytes.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm gonna make sure I don't get skin cancer, but esophageal cancer, gastric cancer, you know, like you know, it's all, it's all, it's all a balancing act.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Which cancer is better?
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: oh, that's great I think another thing that plays into people, um, not uh, thinking that higher spF is better, is when you look at the fractions.
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: People see, you know, one over 50, that's 98%.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: You go to SPF 100, you're only going from 98 to 99.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: So they see that it's 1% increase and they're like well, that's not worth it.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: But 1% can actually be a lot.
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you think about it in terms of what gets through.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: So 99% blocked, that's 1% going through.
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: 98% blocked, that's 2% going through.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: 98% blocked, that's 2% going through You're getting twice as many UV photons getting into your skin.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: And also the 99% 98%, that's only if you apply the perfect amount perfectly like completely evenly that shot glass, completely evenly all over your body.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: No one does that.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: There are studies showing that no one does that.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: So if you underapply, if you apply half the amount, you get 99 divided by two versus, yeah, 98 divided by two and so on.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: So you're actually not getting as much.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: And there are a couple of studies, although they are funded by Neutrogena, so possible conflict of interest, but it matches with every other type of evidence we have.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: If they did a couple of studies where they got people I think one was skiing, they had an SPF 100 and an SPF 50, and they just got people to apply as much as they wanted, like SPF 50 on one half of their face, spf 100 on the other half, and consistently it was people were getting more burnt on the SPF 50 side.
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm a ginger, so I just literally apply as much as I possibly can until I'm like so slippery that you know somebody goes to hug me, and I'm just like what's up with me?
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: uh, so like vitamin d, because that's one.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: One thing I always hear is like don't apply sunscreen because then you're not going to get the vitamin D you need.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So is that a thing?
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Do we need to worry about that?
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: What's going on?
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: So it is a thing that a lot of people aren't getting enough vitamin D, and it's such a thing that Australia put out these guidelines, which most of the world has followed, except the US.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: The US seems to be quite resistant to this.
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, number one, and not listening to anybody else.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Freedom seems to be quite resistant to this.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, number one, and not listening to anybody else, freedom.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: It's honestly weird.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Like I don't want to do like a big pharma conspiracy, but I feel like part of it might be like because you don't have a really like socialised public health system as much as everywhere else and you don't have restrictions, but anyway.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: So the Australian guidelines, which I believe they're not quite peer-reviewed yet, but they're made by the peak bodies, so it's going to pass.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Um, basically the guidelines are if it's uv actually this is the old guidelines.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: They've improved it recently.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: The old guidelines were um, if it's uv index of three or above, wear sunscreen.
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: If it's below, don't wear sunscreen.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: If the uv index is really low, purposely seek out a bit of sun during the day.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Um, like, purposely expose some body parts.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: The newer guidelines are way more detailed and they actually do it by skin color.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: So one, uh, the big problem was that, um, some immigrants were getting um rickets, like they kids were getting rickets, which is like I don't know.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: To me it feels like a charles dickens kind of condition.
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like vitamin D deficiency messes up your bones, um, and so they've changed it to skin color as well.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: So those old um guidelines were for white people, which is most of Australia, but now they've gone for um.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: If you have darker skin and if you have different risks, like if you have a family history of skin cancer, then you go more one way.
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: If you don't, then you go more the other way, and they've also done it by the amount of skin you expose and by city.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: It's so detailed.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: It's really interesting and I think more people should know about this.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: They've got these tables where they go.
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: If you're exposed, like if you're wearing fully covered, you need this much sun to get enough vitamin D.
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: In Melbourne in winter, if you cover up, like if you leave out your arms and legs, you need this much sun, like it's so detailed, but in general it is.
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: If you wear sunscreen, it seems like that doesn't really affect your vitamin D that much, because you are probably going into the sun.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: You probably didn't apply perfectly because no one does, and so you're still going to get enough vitamin D through the gaps.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: The big problem seems to be clothing that covers you up and just not going outside.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, another thing people forget is that light bounces and so if you're sitting in the shade you're still getting some light.
• 31:05
  Speaker 3: And just take your sweater off, get, get, let the skin actually absorb something while you're sitting in the shade yeah, um.
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: So one thing that is really interesting is um the amount of uv you get if you're in the middle of a field.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Um, about very roughly.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: About 40 of the uv you're getting is directly from the sun shining on you and about 60 is the blue sky bouncing it onto you.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: So if you're sitting in the shade you're not getting any of that 40% direct.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: But if you're seeing like half of the sky, then you're getting like 50% of the 60%, which is still 30% of the UV if you're standing, like literally in the sunny field.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: Wow, no kidding.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, is that why?
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: So when people go to the mountains, they go up in the snow and like the snow bounces all the light then they just get destroyed by the sun and the yes, yes, yes.
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: I've seen so many people.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: They think it like it's, it was such a thing.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: Um, people think it's like windburn and stuff like that.
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: No, it's, it's a sunburn, it's just so many people that go out in the snow and they won't protect themselves and like their face will just be red yeah, because I don't think people realize like how common like skin skin cancer is.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Like how many cases of skin cancer are there every year?
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: There's like a kajillion, it's.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: It's, it's insane.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's so common and we just kind of like I feel like a lot of just kind of shrug it off, like, oh yeah, sunscreen I'm supposed to have.
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: That it's kind of like brushing your teeth.
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: I'm not talking about anybody particular, especially not myself.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, I kind of do it here and there and it's not that you know, I just do it when I remember but like it is actually something that we do it more than paul does?
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: who doesn't believe in brushing his teeth and washing his body?
• 32:42
  Speaker 2: no, no no, no, no.
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: I saw in a recent video he brushes his teeth, but he doesn't use microplastic.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: He doesn't use plastic because of microplastics and he doesn't use toothpaste, he just uses like a bristle no, he uses like, like I don't know horse hairs, like it's like some kind of it's like some kind of hair or something and he's just like, just like, shoves it around on his teeth and like to get rid of the debris and I'm like, hey, that's better than nothing right like that.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: It's better than nothing, but um yeah it's so good paul for for operating it's so good, so yeah, so oh.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: People always always ask me whenever I bring up sunscreen, benzene people always like I'm getting so much benzene, like, and I know that's a big concern.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Give us, can you give us like a little like a comparison, because I know like you'll get like as much benzene like I don't know like living in a city, right, you just breathe that shit, yeah, whereas like in how much are you getting through sunscreen?
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: like very little right yeah, so, oh, I'm working on a really long video on this, because the lab that detected the benzene they have a bit of a sus history.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Um, it's it's video.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so this lab this is a lab called Valishaw and they've been announcing that they've detected benzene in lots of different products over the years.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: So sunscreen in 2021, also hand sanitizers just before that, antiperspirants, dry shampoo.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: The newest one is benzoyl peroxide, which is an acne treatment.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: So the newest one is benzoyl peroxide, which is an acne treatment, but before that, they were actually also the people who first alerted people about NDMA in Zantac, but it turns out they're not very good at measuring things in my opinion Is that important.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because I mean, it's the dose that's important, right?
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, if you're measuring it, and it's the dose that's important, right?
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: Um, so yeah, if you're measuring it, um, and it's like if something is too high, you only know if it's too high if you've measured it accurately.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, so with sunscreen, the amounts they detected were somewhere around um.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: I think the highest was six parts per million and they made it sound really, really scary because they put it in like nanograms, which is like it was.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: It was like I don't know 600,000 nanograms, which is like for a normal person it's like six milligrams.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: But anyway, they really sensationalized their findings for various reasons, which I will speculate about in this video which I am currently working on.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so the amounts were not as bad as people think.
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: They keep on saying that it's a known human carcinogen.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: There's no safe level, but yeah, the background benzene we get is quite a lot.
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: So benzene is in petrol, um or gasoline, if you're yeah, america petrol.
• 35:26
  Speaker 3: What the hell is that?
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: that is gasoline.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: My american friends yeah, so you're.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: You are getting more of that when you're filling in you're filling up your car than you are from sunscreen.
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: You're getting more of it when you're breathing um yeah, especially if you live in a city yeah, and indoors like indoors is worse than outdoors, because benzene is also used for making things like paint and furniture.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: It's's all just off-gassing.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, the amount you're getting is really tiny.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: If you convert it to like the increase in cancer risk, get an increase of like 0.00, like this tiniest fraction.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: If you keep inhaling it for the rest of your life continuously, it's just not a huge deal.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not as big a deal as the media is making it out to be.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: Like it's not good to breathe more benzene.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Lowering benzene is great, but the things you should care about Sunscreen is not high on the list, because you don't use that much sunscreen.
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: You don't use it all year round, or most people don't.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: You don't use it on your body the whole year round, so you're not using the large amounts that they were calculating for it on your body the whole year round, so you're not using the large amounts that they were calculating for, um, well, valley Shore were calculating for Um, yeah, so the thing you should probably care about.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: This is from, like, probably the top benzene toxicologist, um, when he was interviewed about this sunscreen story.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: It's not um.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: If you're really wanting to reduce your exposure, park your car outside of your garage garage if your garage is attached to your house, because that petrol evaporation goes into your house and breathing a low level for a longer period of time is actually worse for you than high levels, very um over very short terms.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the benzene itself isn't carcinogenic.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Your body turns it into something carcinogenic.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: They're low capacity, which means that if you get a whole bunch at once, you actually get less cancer than if you get a low amount over a longer amount of time.
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is from um mo, a toxicologist who is mo skin lab.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: He's great.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: If people want to know more about the safety behind cosmetics, definitely follow him on instagram.
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: He does really good stuff and there's just not that many toxicologists who aren't complete quacks on social media well, that's true for all.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Like social media is just where it brings in the quacks, because I mean, that's how you sell your shit, right, like that's, yeah, the most popular toxicologist, I think, is like the?
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: um, the one who sells a some toxicology course and keeps telling people that candles are killing them.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Um, I feel like you might have come across her.
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: Does he have his own candles?
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, does he have his own candles that he sells.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: She's attached to like some clean living store.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Smart.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: See, this is the thing, this is what we need.
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: It's like Dave Asprey.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: He's always like oh, there's molds in our coffee.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: Also, I sell this coffee Like here you go, like that's the way to do it, man, like that's the way to do it.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Man, I'm telling you.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: But you know, here's what I'm thinking.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Here's what I'm thinking.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: It's like something like sunscreen, where we all kind of it's one of those things where a lot of people kind of collectively just roll their eyes like yeah, I know, I should put it on.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: But when you see something like on the news where it's a little sensationalized, and you see them talking about possible negatives, even not even just like confirmed, just like, oh, this is possible, that's that's the slightest possibility, that's enough for people to go.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: Oh, like I already wasn't probably gonna do it, now I'm definitely not gonna do it right and I think it.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Just it gets left out that, like you're saying the cost benefit ratio, like, is there you can think vaccines, another good one, like, is there potential for a reaction?
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: Sure, but the net benefit is so insanely so massive that you please do it.
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: Please.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Like I understand, I understand there might be some potential, possibly, maybe whatever negative, but it's just do it like and it's always funny that like they're scared of the benzene causing cancer, but so does the sun yeah, like literally the sun is a known human carcinogen with no safe level as well.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: Like literally the same class and the dose you're getting of sun is so much higher because, like, if you just look at the raw amounts of people getting um, benzene related leukemia versus sun related skin cancer, it's just not comparable.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: But I just I see Go ahead, it's fine, it's fine.
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: For all our listeners.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Liam's just, you know, crying into his hands he's got the whole facepalm going on, I see so many videos of people that are like we're doing the best thing for humans.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: Right now.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: We're outside naked in the wilderness soaking up every sun molecule there is, and we're not doing any of that poisons, while they're like also smoking a pipe or some shit.
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: Gotta tan your taint.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: And it's just like what are you?
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: And it just it always, it always comes back to this natural is better fallacy, and I'm so tired of it, but I'm never gonna hear the end of it like I, and I think it's because we've pushed towards like I, I don't know like, because the whole thing with gmos we were just talking about, with like the environmental working group, like anything, science has become just concerning at the least and bad at the most, and it's just so frustrating because now it's just yeah, everything natural is good, so get out there, get as much UV as possible, I don't know, eat random mushrooms in the forest, because I'm sure that's fine, get bitten by a snake Because, like, at the same time, we've been getting more videos of Americans coming to Australia and picking up blue ring octopuses, which are like super, super toxic so I wonder if that is like that's.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: I feel like that's related.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, australia, like I'm pretty sure I've never seen a nate.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I've definitely seen a.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: Nature is good for you video in australia which is just daft.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Like from birth we're taught about spiders and snakes and you know spiders are.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: Spiders are nice.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: If they're over there, don't freak out, stay away from them.
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: But yeah, but americans, you have bears.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: Bears are awful, like you can run away like spiders.
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: You have a chance against a spider you have no chance against a bear no, I mean bears are warm and cuddly.
• 41:40
  Speaker 3: What are you talking about?
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: what is it?
• 41:43
  Speaker 3: I've only had to save one person from a bear so far oh, what's the saying?
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: it's like black if it's black, be aggressive.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: If it's brown, lay down, and if it's white, good night.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Like that's the saying, because, like polar, bears will just kill you.
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: no matter what Polar bears, do not mess with a polar bear.
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: Also, do not mess with a moose.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: So now welcome to Moose Talk.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: This is where we go over how all animals are dangerous and you shouldn't have any pets, because everybody's trying to kill you.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Because everybody is trying to kill you, but yeah.
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: I'm just frustrated and I just need to get it out because it's just, it's so annoying and it's just it's.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: It's like with everything.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: It always swings back and forth, right, like I remember when, like I mean, I don't remember, I wasn't alive, but I remember, like you look at something like baby formula.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Like when baby formula came out, it was like, ooh, science, like science is better than nature, so more women would like use baby formula.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: And then it kind of swung backwards Like oh no, this is, this is poison, basically, basically created for babies.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: And now everything natural is better.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure we'll just swing back around like the other way.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: It's just always goes back and forth.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: And it's just always like we always have to go back and forth between the extremes, right it's.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: It's so frustrating.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: It's like can we have a little fucking nuance?
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: So there's something you'd like.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: You're saying like I love what you're talking about.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: We're like, oh, the new guidelines like there's a lot of nuance for each situation, but that's boring.
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: That's boring.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: I don't want nuance.
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: It is a lot of tables that it's a lot of tables.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's dry and I want you to just to give me the extremes on everything and just I don't know, and I'll just wing it.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: I guess I'm done.
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: I mean part of it is also just like a lot of the time traditional science just doesn't respect SciComm, which is what we're all doing right Like.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: I mean, like the lack of good psych on is part of all our origin stories.
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: That's why we started going on the Internet and making these videos and trying to communicate it to people Because, I mean, public health has kind of dropped the ball in a lot of places on that side, on the communication side, on the like sort of empathy side, they've just kind of assumed that the old tactics worked in this new social media age.
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: And there are clients like I've been talking to some um, some academics in australia who work in skin cancer research and like they see the problem and they're more interested in like adapting their strategies.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: But it's just slow and also just like.
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know how much you've worked in science, but in general scientists, like the science community just doesn't care about SciComm.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Like they're like why would you do SciComm?
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Why aren't you in the lab?
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: Why aren't you just working on research?
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: Your life is worthless If you care about like teaching, education.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: That's all like.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: And it does like kind of come back down to misogyny.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: I think as well Part of the time, like it is that whole, like teaching is not what you should be doing.
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it's, it's a mess.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of reasons.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair, so all is lost and give up.
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: But seriously though, um, what would you give?
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: I'm so, I want, I don't, I don't want to leave people all like bad, okay, so like you do a lot of things with skincare, like can you give us some?
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Like I'm getting older, I'm 32, I'm in tiktok years, I'm like ancient, like what?
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: What do I do for like my skin to?
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: like you know be make it better for longer, less bad for more time.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Like what am I, what should, what's?
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: bad more time less bad, more time.
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: What should I do?
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: for less bad, more time well, I think, on the good side.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people who care about skincare have really turned towards science, because I I mean, that is how you get better skin and you can see the better results.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: And as humans, we just care more about short-term things.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Cancer is far away, but wrinkles are really close.
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: Everyone has this sort of gap, but sunscreen is the best for both.
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: So sunscreen is definitely good.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: The best supported ingredients would probably be retinoids, specifically tretinoin and the prescription retinoids.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: So tretinoin, differin is over the counter.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: Now there's also tazaritin, so those are like the drug retinoids which are actually approved for anti-aging.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Differin isn't, but there's enough evidence that I feel like it should soon.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Retinol is also great.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Retinol is over the counter.
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: The best brands are probably Neutrogena and ROC, because they know how to stabilize it and they were also involved in the Tretinoin research.
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the drug research has also filtered into anti-aging, which is great.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think in general, if you don't care about how your skin looks that much, sunscreen is still good.
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: Cleanser and moisturizer, especially if your skin feels like tight or uncomfortable, moisturizer is good for that.
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: And then, yeah, add a retinol, maybe add some exfoliants, so chemical exfoliants help your skin shed itself better because, as as we like, our skin just responds to its environment.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: So if you're in a drier environment, your skin cells just don't shed as well.
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: Um I imagine that's pretty important for people who have acne trouble.
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah so acne a lot of the time comes from when you're well.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: One of the contributing factors is your skin cells aren't shedding properly and so they clump up and clog your pores.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah so chemicals, foliants like salicylic acid, glycolic acid, lactic acid are great for smoothing out your skin.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: Um, giving that like glass skin look that everyone wants and, yeah, clearing up your pores oh, I mean, I don't want that.
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: I want that weathered old man who just came out of a cave in the same, we're all different.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Some of us want to look young and beautiful.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Other of us want to look like I just walked out of a cave after 30 years oh, that's what I'm going for, right there um, since he brought it, since rob brought it up, I just like people always ask me like oh, what's the connection between like diet and like acne?
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Do you have like any insight?
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: I've seen some things like oh, high sugar diet might be, might cause some acne for some people.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: I've heard things on dairy.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Do you have anything kind of on that realm?
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so there's so many problems with nutrition studies, like you two have talked about them heaps, but in skin, um, like, the biggest issue is always, like they're mostly done on college-aged males because, um, they need to participate in studies to get class credits, um, so those are always the subjects, um, and acne is so hormonal that, yeah, gender makes a big difference, um, or sex, rather, makes a big difference in terms of the hormones, because androgens are one of the contributing factors to acne.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: In terms of the studies that exist, the best evidence is for high sugar and dairy, but of course, you see tons of people who eat tons of sugar, tons of dairy, no acne, so it's a really complicated multifactorial condition.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Um, and it seems like the things that work most reliably for acne for everyone, are not diet related and there are a lot less like, they require a lot less of a lifestyle change and there's a lot less risks than changing your diet to get rid of, like, a really big food group, because, I mean, dairy is a big part of lots of people's diets and if you cut out dairy, then you end up with all sorts of weird nutritional imbalances, um, whereas yeah, problem for another different using benzoyl peroxide.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: um, like, it's not as big of a change.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: So, generally, um, diet isn't recommended, like dietary changes isn't recommended as an acne treatment.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: But if you do want to change like, if you do want to explore that, it's a good idea to like cut out one or two foods that you think might be contributing and then put them back in and see what happens.
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: So, experiment on yourself.
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: Don't make huge radical changes without consulting a doctor, but yeah, chances are other treatments will work better.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: I have a video on this which I did with a dermatologist, dr Anjali Mato, who is an acne specialist.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, check that out.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: Whenever people ask me about acne, I tell them change your bedsheets more.
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: It's the simplest life change Low risk and it will make a huge difference yeah, and even if it doesn't, it'll make you feel better, which, honestly, oh yeah there's nothing better than sleeping in clean, warm sheets.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: What do you think about?
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Um, the people that talk about using a beef tallow for acne?
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: oh man, I mean it's fine, like it's a moisturizer, like it's a moisturizer, it's just a moisturizer.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Seems expensive.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: One of the interesting things, though, is beef tallow, actually the fatty acid composition of beef tallow.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of saturated fatty acids, but there's also oleic acid, which is omega-9.
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: And there have been studies linking increased omega-9 to acne.
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: And also saturated fat, like coconut oil, is famous for causing acne in a lot of people again, not all but um, there is a bit of a link.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: So I feel like tallow maybe isn't the best option, like it's not the safest compared to seed oils, which are actually linked to less acne.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Um, but it's more natural, natural, so it's gotta be better that's how it works like is rubbing like beef fat on your face really more natural than rubbing like sunflower seeds, like I don't know about this naturalness thing like you think back to caveman, surely like you wouldn't want to waste the calories?
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: welcome back to what's more natural, that we changed our podcast.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: What's more natural?
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: Rubbing on beef fat?
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: well, I think our next main product needs to be sunflower acne face masks yeah I don't know, it's the tello thing really.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: It's.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: It's weird, but like, if it works for you, that's great.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: It's a moisturizer.
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: I feel like the people that see benefit from it are either maybe it's the vitamins in it or the moisturizer part of it, rather, than the actual beef tallow itself.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if they use coconut oil it would be similar, and it's weird that coconut oil is not cool anymore.
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: I remember when people were adding it to everything, michelle.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: It always goes up and down.
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: It was cool, now it has to not be cool.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: We'll get back to it Maybe high demand meant lower prices and then less affiliate commissions.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: And then now beef tallow is rare enough that it's in that sweet spot for commissions.
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: She's figured it out.
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: Oh, should we get into coconut oil now?
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: Because it's going to come back.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: Like you know, we always know it's on a pendulum, so maybe we need to get in when the getting's good and then we can sell it when it's good, probably not a bad idea, and global warming should make it easier to grow tropical crops right.
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: See now you're really using your noodle now, you're really figuring galaxy brain cost benefit, as we said at the start of the episode.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: This is where you learn your grifting techniques exactly it's cost benefit this the the earth is getting warmer, we are destroying it, but that means more coconuts and we can profit off that.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: There you go and benefit.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: There we go.
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: Problem solved.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Oh, liam's just dying.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: I'm so over it.
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, we got to ask our final question what's your favorite Oreo?
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: What's your favorite Oreo?
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: I don't have one.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: We always ask this we don't have well, I'm in Australia.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: We don't get the good flavors of anything.
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: You, I'm in Australia.
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: We don't get the good flavors of anything.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: You just got your Lake Canada.
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: It's like Australia, except more dangerous animals.
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: Well, they have small dangerous animals.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: We have big dangerous animals.
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: You have Americans who cross the border sometimes.
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, we have Americans yeah.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: I think that puts us ahead in the dangerous category.
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: I loved you saying America's going over to Australia.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that puts us ahead in the in the dangerous category, can we?
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: I love her, you love to say like America's going over to Australia and picking up like octopus, like that's great.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Can we get that on a shirt of just like an American, like, oh, look at this, that's fantastic.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: I love natural, that's what I want.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: I want that shirt too.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: Well, I'll add it to the list of merch ideas that we have from like.
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: Every episode has a merch idea now.
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we got to go back and just pick out some of these are favorites and then we'll just ask, like people what do you want?
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: I'm on team picking up octopus.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: We should just start a consulting agency for like how to shill properly, although, honestly, our ideas aren't that good.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: We should really get like how to shill properly, although, honestly, our ideas aren't that good.
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: We should really get into the farmer shill game.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: That's where the money is meant to be.
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: It's where it is right now.
• 54:33
  Speaker 3: That's for sure.
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: Did you see the report that the makers of Ozempic are under fire?
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: because it's a $ a thousand dollar drug and they can apparently make it for five bucks.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: That's such an american problem, oh man.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: So american coded?
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: we already get told to get paid for by big pharma.
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: We might as well actually make money from them, like right or it's, if we're already there.
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they're gonna, they're gonna yell at us about it anyway but the thing is is like, oh, I did see this doctor this morning.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: He, um, he posted this video that said like here are four, four medications every man should be on, and I think three of one of them was fish oil, um, but I think three of them were like, um.
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: One was like Viagra can't pronounce the name.
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: One was metformin um, one with finasteride, and it's like so many of the comments were just like wow, give me more information.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Whereas, like, and a lot of these were like the biohacking people who are like the type who are more likely to be like big pharma shill.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: It's like this is actual, like this is way more big pharma shilling than what we're doing.
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: Like we're defending like really cheap things.
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: We're talking about how, like, cheap products are fine, that's not, that's terrible.
• 55:47
  Speaker 3: Curious about this now, like, was it actually viagra like, or was it to dalafil?
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: yes to dalafil to valafil.
• 55:53
  Speaker 3: Okay, that made a little bit more sense.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Sorry, I, I should know this my phd um, I just don't care about man drugs, um, but that's fair but yeah, it's like actual big pharma shilling people are seem the same.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: People seem to be fine with that I guess you just have to phrase it just right and find the group, yeah, find the group that you're looking for biohacking to make sure you have erections every day biohacking.
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: So we're interesting, why, why?
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: why do normal people need to take to dolophil every day?
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: oh, it's protective of your blood vessels, probably based on some tiny, started off as like a blood pressure medication and they were like oh, we can make a lot more money off the bazoingas.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: You know, like we can make more money off this, let's make money off that.
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: I thought these were the bazoingas.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: So I was thinking more like I guess bazinga Maybe what I was thinking of and that's like an erection, I don't know.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: I was going some direction the b and the bazoingas because the bazoingas and the bazoingas, there's the male and female.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah, we got to get into the biohacking too.
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: I think that's a good route because, yeah, people and those people have money, like the biohackers are the ones that have money, right, you know, like they're the ones that are like getting older greens yeah, they've got the money to pay like athletic greens, like a hundred dollars we could
• 57:16
  Speaker 3: I mean there's so much potential, there's so much potential, there's so much potential, so much potential, so where can everybody find you?
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: I'm on all the platforms.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: I I have my website, labmuffincom, where I have lots of articles and honestly, that's probably the best place for people who are more academically minded.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Um, but I'm also on instagram, um, tiktok, youtube is probably.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Youtube is probably also better.
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: I have longer videos there that go into more detail, but, um, yeah, the short videos are fun longer videos for people who have an attention span longer than seven seconds yeah, or if they they want to just put on a long thing and do their laundry oh, there we go I'm gonna put like a tv over top of my washing machine.
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: I'll just toss youtube up on there, throw the laundry in, just be like, okay time to watch some lab.
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: Baby muffin beauty.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: Baby body bumper make sure you don't use any of those harsh chemicals in your laundry, though you're gonna want to use beef towel mixed with coconut oil.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: Those are the only two things you're allowed you can't have an oil.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: Stain the oil.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: Uh, she can only use viagra in her clothes make sure the clothes are nice and stiff.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: Oh, good night everybody and I have a book that's out for pre-order at the moment.
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: It's called the science of beauty.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: It comes out probably in june.
• 58:51
  Speaker 3: It's about the science behind every beauty product I'm gonna like add everybody's book to my bookshelf over here so you'll see it up there eventually.
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: Amazing, and don't be your worst.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: And don't be your worst.