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Empowering Autistic Learners Through Innovative Education with Kenneth Mims · ABCs of Parenting Adult Children

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the podcast ABC's of Parenting Adult Children.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Please join us as we discuss parenting adult children and the unique struggles that it comes along with.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to ABC's Parenting Adult Children Podcast.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: My name is James Moffat and I will be your host.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: Today, my special guest is Kenneth Mims.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing, Kenneth?
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm doing excellent.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: How are you doing?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Good, good.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: As the founder of the Neurodiversity Education Research Center, he has Kenneth has made significant strides in promoting inclusive education for autistic students.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: NERC operates the Science Prep Academy, an award-winning private STEM college and career prep school that has gained national recognition for its innovative approaches and commitment to diversity in the classroom.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Kenneth, do me a favor and introduce yourself to the listening audience.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: All right, thank you.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_01: Kenneth Mems, I'm an education educational leader, founder of NER, and we operate Science Prep Academy.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: But my background actually was in physics with over 25 years of teaching experience and been able to work with parents and students around autism and neurodiversity.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So you have a website, and I'm going to share that with our video people that are watching the uh video.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, thank you.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: So this is Kenneth Mims ii.wits site.com and my site.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: I would imagine if somebody just googles Kenneth Mims, Neurodiversity or whatever, that uh they'll be able to find you.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, correct.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: We we have made an update to a site.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so if they just go to KennethMims.com, they'll be able to find uh the updated site that provides um uh more access and more resources.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: So what we'll do is we'll put the the link to your website in our show notes that way people can just click on it and go straight to it.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, thank you.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well I'm glad you could be on the show today.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: So can you share what initially inspired you to pursue a career in STEM education and how that path led you to focus on supporting autistic learners?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh thank you.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um my background was in physics, study physics, and the reason why I chose that because I just wanted to be in a situation where I could just think, you know, uh be creative, you know, problem solve.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I discovered physics as a major.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I graduated in 2001, the tech bubble burst, and uh I transitioned into education.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And at that time, maybe a few years later, I had a student who asked a very high-level question, and I found out that he had a uh a so-called learning disability called autism.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so I started studying what autism was, and uh I discovered that the characteristics reminded me of myself, and uh that is what caused me to uh learn about autism, identify as being autistic myself, and became passionate to creating learning environments for students who are autistic or STEM learning environments.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: My wife Katie is a special education teacher.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: She's been doing it almost 30 years, and she's very familiar with autism and other learning disabilities and neurodiversity.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I was kind of hoping she could be on the podcast episode tonight because she could ask you intelligent questions.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: Wherein I wherein uh I might not be able to.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: But I'll do my best.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I've had several guests that are experts in the field on the podcast last year.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's um it's certainly needed.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: So you said you had a student that was autistic and asked you uh a question that got your attention, and that's what caused you to dive off into this this branch of education.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh when I discovered the characteristics of autism, I noticed you know the characteristics in myself, but also my peers in the physics community, my uh graduate students I worked with and uh professors that I work with.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look at some individuals, and this is not all, but some individuals who are autistic or neurodivergent, um, you know, they those characteristics are displayed in many tech individuals in the tech world.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: So if you look at people like Elon Musk, Zuckerberg, Wozniak, Steve Jobs, Bill Giggs, not everybody, but many of individuals, you know, they are also autistic or neurodivergent.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that's so that's what's going on with Musk, huh?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: He unfortunately only time he has ever said it was on a Saturday night live skit, you know, when he was on it.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then after that, he doesn't really talk about it.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: So tell us what STEM means.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: Science, technology, engineering, and math.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So as the founder of the Neurodiversity Education Research Center, what specific goals do you aim to achieve through this organization and how do you measure success?
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so our our goal is to have a uh impact based upon our research.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: So our Science Prep Academy is an innovative model, as breaking barriers and demonstrating a new approach to education.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: But the long-term goal is to take the research and advocate for policy and legislation to make changes.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's some huge changes, systematic things that need to be changed to support individuals who are who are neurodivergent.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so the way that we measure our growth is based upon the research that we have for our programs and operations.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then eventually it'll be the the the national and larger impact uh that we have um on people's lives, parents as well as uh kids.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Would you say that education has embraced neurodivergent situations or neurodivergent children or adults today compared to like 20 years ago?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: That's a good question.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_01: Twenty years ago, so when I first started teaching, I would say to some degree, it has increased, but it's totally off, off point, off mark where we're at.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think society has changed so much, it's definitely not up to speed.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And for one example, the word neurodiversity isn't like in any law, legislation are used in schools on a state le federal level, state level, or local level.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: So the word neurodiversity doesn't exist at all.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, uh and then individuals who are autistic or neurodivergent are just are they're put in learning environments that are not really conducive and practices that are just not conducive for individuals who are autistic, um, unfortunately, many times.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's not good.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if I wonder if my wife I wonder how much of that she's exposed to in her special education classroom.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it depends on the school and the district, and and and a lot of times the parents, you know, they have teachers that are really great, and those teachers attract kids from the whole county or from the whole state, you know, like you know, Mrs.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Such and such at this school, and and parents finding.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: But there's just systems, things that are just outdate out outdated, but specifically as it relates to like to autism, because autism is um relatively new, and but also it's a uh drastic increase over the you know last 20 years.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's really no way that school systems really could pivot to to not just accommodate, but to evolve.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you talk about numbers down as like in a one, you know, one in 34, something like that, compared to one in the hundreds.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: Now tell me, I've I hear this sometimes on TV, social media, you know, in print.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: I hear about people being on the spectrum.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean?
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, ASD autism spectrum disorder.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: So sometimes use that as as a short, you know, as a short um way to say ASD, but ASD ranges, you know, the spectrum.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like to use it, but some people use high functioning, low functioning, you know, I'm not sure.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that really doesn't mean anything.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, you have to be careful with, you know, words and terms and labels.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_01: Labels.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: So how how have your personal experiences shaped your understanding and approach to teaching and advocating for autistic students?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: So my story, you know, is a strength-based approach.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: When I discovered autism, I discovered it as a strength.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like, hey, you know, you know, individuals who are more divergent, autistic, you know, have the ability and they have capacity and they have value.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_01: But most individuals, parents, kids, you know, when they receive the diagnosis, is typically through a tragic and traumatic experience as far as behavior issues, grades, or struggles and stuff like that.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: Then, you know, comes along a diagnosis of autism as a disability or you know, or or deficiency.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a deficit base.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: So my experience is is really totally different, I realize.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, also from a personal note, I have an older brother who um who uh was undiagnosed autistic.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I was able to unfortunately watch him struggle.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: And and as I grew in understanding, you know, I was able to understand, you know, what he was going through.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so at an early age, you know, he attempted suicide.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um and unfortunately, he um, you know, attempted again with uh about a year ago and he passed away.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, that personal approach of watching my brother struggle has empowered me to really advocate and just see that there's a mental health piece that no one really talks about for individuals who are autistic and neurodivergent.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's a higher rate of mental health needs, you know, from isolation to depression and then suicidal ideation.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been able to, you know, watch my family, watch my brother, but also watch my mother, you know, and so as a son, watching my mother go through, you know, the trials of raising uh an autistic or neurodivergent child in some of the struggles, you know, with mental health.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I've been able to see things from a 360 perspective that allows me to help help students, advocate for students, but also parents.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I have a book that I recently wrote entitled Um A Mother's Guide for Autism.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: And it's meant to support and inspire mothers, but also, you know, assist them on their journey.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm so sorry to hear about your your brother.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um how old was he?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_01: He was 50 uh 52.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Today is actually his birthday.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, that's uh that's a tough thing to deal with for sure.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_02: So can you elaborate on your innovative education model and how it differs from traditional teaching methods when addressing the needs of autistic learners?
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it differs in a in a couple of distinct ways.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: But one one particular way is you know um we are considered uh what you will call a micro school.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: So altogether, grade six through twelve, we're only talking about twenty students.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_01: And each class is about um 10 students, grades six through um eight, uh two teachers.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: So that learning environment is very small.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_01: But in addition, we we're very positive.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we use a positive behavior support program, which includes therapy.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's an education, educational and therapeutic model.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so students receive the therapeutic support within the classroom setting, which is which is totally different than the than the standard model.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: But at the foundation, you know, we believe.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_01: We believe our students can be successful, we believe our students can reach their potential, and we believe that they can transition independently.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And every student is different, you know, and every student has different uh potential, but parents come to us because they are in school settings, unfortunately, most times and many times, where um individuals are just not able to believe what they believe in their child.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so parents and mothers many times are advocating and fighting.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're just, you know, in a situation that it's much smaller.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we don't have a lot of the challenges, you know, that other schools or public schools may have.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not to take away from other schools or public schools.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's just that we we have been able to just, you know, create a small little environment, you know, with a really a small impact and and just be able to provide a service without a lot of the challenges that comes with operating operating larger schools in this day and time.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: So for the parents that are listening to this podcast episode, some of them may or may not be up to speed on autism or how that manifests in the child's behavior.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: And let's let's say, let's say a parent has a child in a classroom and they may or may not have been diagnosed with autism.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_02: How does how does autism manifest in their behavior in the classroom?
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: And how is that addressed by, let's say, a teacher that is ignorant of about that?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's a great question.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so to define, officially define autism, it is just a social and emotional developmental delay.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: And many times we coordinate our or or connect, like we think that autism is an intellectual disability.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: And that's totally wrong.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: There's, you know, autism and and IQ have nothing to do with each other, but also there's uh many students who are autistic and they may have above average IQ.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so they may even be what's considered gifted.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so many times it's just challenging for teachers and staff to be able to identify autism in all students, you know, you know, across uh different cultures and genders.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Many young ladies are uh or girls, unfortunately, are not identified with being autistic until later in their life as an adult, just because it it wasn't seen, you know, it just wasn't able to be observed and picked up.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes, many times, you know, they say girls mask or individuals mask, and they put on certain social and emotional cues just to kind of adapt to environments.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes, you know, it manifests, you know, in social emotional challenges, be so-called behaviors, um, you know, isolation, sensory issues are are many times associated from sound, sight, touch, hearing, sound, sight, touch, smell.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so a sensory overload, anxiety, ADHD is many times mixed into it uh as an umbrella as far as within neurodiversity.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it looks different to some degree in everybody, but you know, typically there's going to be a delay as far as social and emotionally.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so what I mean by that is if a child is in, say, sixth grade, socially and emotionally, they may have uh developmental skills that would be more along, say, third grade.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: Or if they're in eighth grade, it's more like, you know, fifth grade.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, many parents who do not get identified early, um, so so it's easy kind of to identify early age milestones.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're talking about two years old, three years old, as far as making eye contact, communicating, and doing, you know, early age milestones.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: But past that, and when you start talking, and that's from a medical perspective, that they're, you know, that it's being identified.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: But in the school setting, it's slightly difficult.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: And many times parents don't identify it until students get older or their children get older, and they may be in social environments like holidays with the family, and uh particular, say, like kids are, you know, in the family all at the same age, and they're transitioning to like high school or they're they're socially transitioning to dating, getting jobs, talking about the driving, talking about college.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: But one parent has a child who's is isolated, you know, while everybody else, all the other kids are talking about those things, they're kind of isolated, still playing video games by themselves and still socially and emotionally, you know, behaving, you know, at an age of say a sixth grade or fifth grade or beyond.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then that's where a parent, you know, really notice it.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so unfortunately, there's a delay in noticing it because you can only really like notice the gap, you know, the delay, the gap as far as, you know, individual compared to like their peers who have you know progressed to be, you know, on age socially and and emotionally.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: Did you ever see the movie The The Accountant?
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_02: One and two, yeah.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, with with Ben Affleck?
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: Did you did you enjoy it?
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: As you were talking as you're talking, I I think about you know the plot of the movie, especially number one, it shows how Ben was, and I don't know how much of this is Hollywood or how much of his is reality-based or whatever, but he he he's he's acting out, uh kicking things, punching holes in the wall, and just having a real difficult time functioning like his older brother.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, his older brother?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think it was his older brother.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_02: Mother leaves, the father, you know, father's in in the military, and he's moving the family all over the place.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: And the the uh I know there was one scene where the parents actually took the son to to a uh not a hospital, but a a uh an organization, whatever, that that they specialized in helping, you know, kids like that.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_02: And uh and anyway, I didn't I didn't I didn't know how much of that movie in what they were talking about is based in reality, or was it more Hollywood, or do you think that's a good depiction of what people go through?
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think so.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, there's a a lack of good movies, you know, properly, you know, depicted it.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I think I think it did it did good.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it did a good job on a couple different notes.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: On one note, it you know, it it highlighted some of the challenges from a century sensor sensory you know perspective.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: So what you were noticing what uh Ben Affleck was demonstrating with what they I think they call it pain stemming.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, surgery stimming.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's kind of you know many people are impacted by that, you know.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and and you know, you know, now it was Hollywood, he because Ben was kicking butt.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm trying to tell you, he was kicking buttons in that movie, man.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's one of my favorite movies.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's one of my kicking butt.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: So after he, you know, you know, uh got engaged and you know, he just had to decompress.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, even myself, you know, you know, I need time to just kind of be isolated and you know, and and kind of like what they call self-regulate.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so that identified that.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: And then a whole on a whole nother note, the reason why I like the movie is is just showing the relationship between brothers or siblings.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I told you my my brother, you know, was nor divergent.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, just that relationship and some of the challenges that come along with, you know, siblings and their parents, it becomes a little complex and you have to Sure.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was it it showed the uh dynamic rel, you know, the relationship that he he had with his older brother and how his older brother knew how to get along in the world.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: He knew how to to have con normal conversations with people and discern the intricacies of emotional tones and stuff like that.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: And Ben Affleck didn't get it.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: He was just like, you know, black and white, and he didn't know how to like like several, you know, like that young girl was like, uh you have to you have to really understand people's emotional state.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, like the scene in the in the prison where that older man took Kim under his wing and was like, you know, you're gonna you're going to be cooking the books for all these mobsters and stuff, and you need to be able to understand, you know, people's body language and how they're talking and their emotional state.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: You're frustrated, you're angry.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: He just didn't have a clue about any of that stuff.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so that anyway, I didn't mean to rabbit hole with that, but no, but you bring up something really important as it relates to like the school that we founded, is that you know, we focus on teaching those things.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: And in the traditional school model, we just haven't been able to do that, take that time to really develop socially and emotionally.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, they have something called SEL, but it's not really like, you know, really taking that responsibility to help, you know, grow socially and emotionally.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: That that you know, yeah, I love that movie myself also.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: So in your book, A Mother's Guide to Autism, what are some core messages or advice you hope to convey to parents navigating their children's autism journey?
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, the number one thing is really a modern mindset for mothers.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: A modern mindset.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that's, you know, that mindset is based upon, you know, a strength-based mindset.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: And many times, you know, mothers have not, parents have not had that mindset in the past.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's a disability, it's a deficiency.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of parents are informed, you know, that their child will never be anything.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Their child would live with them forever, or they may be committed to some type of facility.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, this is the reality that we live in, you know, and then, you know, but I hear the stories that, you know, parents are saying, no, you know, I was told that, you know, but I I poured into my child, and you know, they went on to be able to be successful or reach their full potential and for whatever that may be, and maybe college, a career.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I so that's the truth.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so within this book, it provides just kind of like a balance for of information from a strength-based perspective, but also to identify some of the challenges, you know, and one of the major challenges is the mental health piece that no one is really talking about.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: You know, many times individuals who are autistic, neurodivergent, face those transitions, I mean, that's those challenges, but particularly as they transition out of high school into adulthood.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: And so we hear a lot about early age milestones, but for me, you know, I say the most challenging time period is young adult milestone.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Milestones and no one's talking about it.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so the aspect of receiving uh mental health or, you know, behavioral health, you know, at you know, when when a child, you know, transitions into young adulthood is critical because many individuals are unfortunately, you know, going through a traumatic uh path of of being committed to psychiatric, you know, inpatient or outpatient facilities to get treatment and support that they could get, you know, prior, you know, in a more appropriate environment situation where it's not like you know traumatic and sticky.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but that's one thing, identifying those challenges and then also just providing uh exposure to the tools and therapies and strategies, which is you know kind of like the basic therapy and strategies that are out there.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, my goal is to provide an inspiration and guidance, you know, to parents and mothers.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so I just really look at mothers as as heroes, as superheroes, and I'm just here, you know, trying to support them on their journey.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_02: That's good.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: So here's a question that popped into my head as I was listening to you talk.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: So you have parents of an aut autistic child or a neurodivergent child that uh, you know, this is a podcast for um parents of adult children, and so that's like between 18 and 30 years of age, right?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And so you have moms and dads out there that are fighting for their kids, and they've they've uh identified autism, they've they've you know, they've gotten their their child uh diagnosed, and they're coming to people like you, organizations like yours, to give them a fighting chance and to prepare them for adult life.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, when people that are that are not autistic, let's say for myself, you know, my dad wanted me to be the TV man when I was growing up.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: He was that's what he did for a living.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: He worked at the local state hospital and fixed TVs back in the 70s, you know, and back when TVs were these big giant honking pieces of wood, right?
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_02: And they had the picture tube and an eight-track player and a phonograph and all this kind of stuff.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_02: And well, he wanted me to be a TV man, and I was like, oh, that was the first furthest thing from my reality.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_02: I had no no desire to work all day and then come home and go to a shop and work on people's broken down TVs until midnight or one o'clock in the morning.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I know looking back, he did that for you know to pay bills, you know, and put food on the table, and I get that.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: But if we have parents that are listening, what is the how do they like let's say little little Timmy, we're doing the best we can with him, he's getting help.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Is there is there a balance or is there an issue of let's say parents are well, let's say it's say the mom or the dad is a doctor and they've got an autistic child, right?
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_02: And they their dream for their child is become to become a doctor.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: How to is there is there do the parents need to have a balance with their their dreams and visions of who little Timmy can become, right?
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because you hear sometimes maybe little Timmy grows into a young man and maybe the best he can do is buy groceries at Walmart, right?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: Or whatever.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I don't want to I don't want to place a limit on what little Timmy can accomplish in life, but but do parents struggle with that balance?
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, you touch on something very important.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so in the book, I have a chapter called Battle of Emotions, Battle of Emotions.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the reality of it is that there's a you know, parents are are battling their own internal emotions, you know, and many times it's a grieving process because, you know, you have these expectations, these goals, these dreams, you know, for your child.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: And many times when the diagnosis is presented, you know, it's presented in a way that, you know, those dreams are are deferred, are lost.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a grieving process that I noticed, unfortunately, that parents have to go through.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you have two parents, you know, going, you know, that grieving process, you know, they they it can go, you know, if you're familiar with grief, it has different, you know, stages.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so then you have parents that are at different stages within that process.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and one part one stage is anger, you know, you know, and and and you know, a host of others.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so just being aware of that of that emotional process, I think is critical on the journey because many parents, unfortunately, you know, going through that cycle, they they end up separating.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: There's a high rate of divorce for, you know, like couples because they're going through this emotional process.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so that, you know, I would just say just to be aware and to also seek out, you know, uh support, counseling support as a couple, but also as an individual, you know, to provide that, you know, that support, you know, on on the when on that journey, because it's a process from the beginning, the initial diagnosis into and really forever.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's just different stages.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: Because even when a child may turn, you know, transition to a young adult, 18, 19, 20, like I said before, it's really the beginning.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's really the you know, many times it's just the it's just getting started because that's the most challenging.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, by that time, parents are the most fatigued.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because you know, they've been through.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so right when they're at kind of like this point of we're done with school, we're, you know, we're you know, we're we're kind of done, you know, the the services and support fall off.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they call it like a cliff where the the support and services actually end.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: But the student, I mean their child actually needs the most support, you know, transitioning to adulthood.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um yeah, it's it's it's a it's it's a challenge, but just having a good community and a good team and resources is um is does your organization uh address that that time in the young adult's life?
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: Over time we had to realize that we needed to stay in our students' lives.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we did, we created actually a grade 13 and a grade 14.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: So after our students graduate from grade 12, they stay with us, and we have a full internship program.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a partnership with one of the largest employers in the state of Arizona, uh hospital system, and our our students work in the hospital setting with our staff there.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: But our staff support them with a curriculum in the morning for just an hour, and then for the rest of the day, they're actually working in three 10-week rotations in different departments within the hospital, culinary, environmental services, hospitality, those type of things.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're they're working under a supervisor just like anybody else, getting those real world skills and getting, you know, opportunity and getting prepared to transition to the workforce.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: And even still, our students still need, you know, a little bit more support to transition into the workforce.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why we created an additional year, grade 14, just to, you know, support them with that year uh after they're done with that program to transition to the workforce.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so they just need a little bit more time, you know, a little bit more time uh receiving support.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, our students are doing have been doing very well, you know, and so we're very happy and the parents are very happy.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: I know one of the subjects that we talk about, you know, a lot of times you hear the term failure to launch with with normal, you know, teenagers coming into adulthood and and uh one of the child psychologists we have on the show, he likes to use lost in place instead of failure to launch, because failure the word failures has such a negative connotation.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_02: And so I I know and I you know I'm 64, so it's been a long time since I transitioned into adulthood, but I can remember how scary, you know, you you know, I I remember I wanted to be a young man, I wanted to get out from underneath my parents and I wanted to to be be my own man and I wanted to, you know, go out and earn a paycheck and and I wanted to do my thing.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't want them telling me what I could or couldn't do anymore.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: And well then reality set in.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was like, oh, how stupid am I?
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_02: Because now guess what?
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm paying all my bills.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: All the stuff I enjoyed at home is gone.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's gone.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_02: So so I know how I know how of a how of a shock it is to the system for somebody that's not autistic, you know, you just you just get kind of kicked out of the nest and thrown into the world, you know, and you either sink or swim.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: And so I can only imagine for somebody that's autistic or neurodivergent, how much more of a shock that is.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_02: Because there's there's a uh a slap in the face, a reality check, you know, at some point, you know, how do they how how do you prepare somebody to to adapt to that?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes with regular kids, there's you don't know how to adapt, right?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: So what I've learned is really just by being there, by being present, you know, by to some degree, you know, holding their hand or still being there.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe not holding their hand, but being there, first of all, to let go, but being there not too far, so you can assist if they fall down, help them get back up.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Be a support system.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Be a support system, you know, to be there, to be present, you know, what I realized.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we noticed, you know, that we had students graduating, but they would come back.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like they would graduate and then they would just pop up at the school.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, you know, what's hey, I thought you were supposed to go to college.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you know, such and such happened, blah, blah, blah.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: I thought you, you know, had the job.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, but they and so they needed that support system.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: They needed that network, that needed that that safety net.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so we had to figure out how to, you know, create a budget and how to create a program to be able to, you know, staff and support.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so really they they they just need somebody.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said before, it's challenging because at that age, the last person that they really want to talk to is who?
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: Their parents.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because they want to, right?
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Could be independent.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, outside of autism and noridiversity, like, you know, we become knuckleheads, you know, just you know, work big figure ourselves.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: And individuals, you know, who are autistic, nor diversion, they're just regular hum you know, human beings, they you know, growing socially, emotionally.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so parents are like, oh my, you know, parents are you know kind of lost, they're lost, and school systems really aren't responsible for that.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: And who's there to support?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's really no one.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so designing a school that has that additional year, which um, you know, and really, you know, you know, you know, try trying to figure it out, you know.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, but it's a challenge though, but it is it really is just a it is challenging to parents and students and the school systems as well.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, how do you engage with the community through your coaching and training programs and what impact have you seen from these initiatives?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, so Neurodiversity Education Research Center, we received a grant from the National Science Foundation to look at different teaching strategies to help individuals who are neurodivergent to learn computer science or what's called computational thinking.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so what we did was we hosted uh teacher fellowships and we provided training and developed for them.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: Also, we hosted programs and STEM uh um events for uh for parents and students in the community.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: And this grant was in partnership with the Arizona State University.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so we we were able to provide that support and training to uh educators and to parents and students.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we learned a lot, and we look forward to taking what we've learned and providing more opportunities in the upcoming uh future, both virtually as well as in person.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: What challenges do you frequently encounter in advocating for neurodiversity in education and how do you work, how do you want them?
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, um a couple major challenges, but one challenge is just, you know, many people are just not aware that individuals who are autistic and order diversion have potential, have value.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's both in the educational setting, um, as far as, you know, ability to learn, but also more importantly in the workforce setting.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a huge challenge, you know, in the workforce of working with companies, working with, you know, partners where, you know, people are just not familiar with autism and that individuals, you know, have capacity and what autism really is.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when I was first starting in school and I would say, hey, I'm starting school for kids who are autistic, and people's eyes would kind of get glossy because, you know, I've realized whatever they think autism is, they're they're they're processing it.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: And but what they thought autism was and what I thought it was, I've realized later it was two different, two different things.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you look at thinking about like somebody like, say, Eli Musk, autistic or you know, people like to use the word Asperger's, you know, um, you know, he's a so you know, he's a billionaire.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_01: But unfortunately, when people who are autistic are billionaires, you know, the autism kind of goes away, you know, you know, it just you know, they just think the billionaire, the billionaire.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: But at the same time, if you look at somebody like Elaine Musk, he definitely displays social and emotional um areas where he can grow at, you know, and and develop.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: And even like Steve Jobs was the same way, Bill Gates, same way.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, but um but to answer your question directly, you know, it's just um really a misunderstanding, you know, around autism, you know, what it is, what it looks like, what it means.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, so I'm you know that that's that takes gonna take a little bit more time, a lot more outreach.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just gonna take time.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: Looking ahead, what are your aspirations for the future of inclusive education and support for autistic learners?
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, like I said before, it's just it's gonna take a little bit of time for change, but on a on a policy level, there's there's needs there needs to be some changes, you know, around policy and and systems, you know, um, you know, to have a greater impact.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so I look forward to the day where, you know, legislators and policymakers are become more aware, understanding, but also um some of the barriers, you know, that would benefit parents and and kids, you know, will be kind of brought down.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_01: And what I mean by that is when you look at like individuals who are in wheelchairs, you know, and you know, that are not able to walk, you know, it's very clear, you know, that the barrier or the the accommodation or support that they need to enter a building or job site is a is a ramp, right?
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: But since autism is a is what people call an invisible disability, you know, what is the ramp that uh individuals who are autistic or neurodivergent need, you know, to access, you know, opportunities, you know, and so that's you know not quite there yet.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I look forward to the day where, you know, legislation and policymakers, legislation um and and policymakers, uh legislators rather, and policymakers are able to um, you know, create those more accessible opportunities for for neurodiverse and autistic people.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: Aaron Powell Have you personally have you been able to to work with legislators and help them to come up with language for bills that would support autism?
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: No, not at this time.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I look forward to those opportunities.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: I look for it, you know, that's really like the next step of our plan is to, you know, start to sit down, sit down and have those conversations.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that is uh probably an uphill battle, huh?
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but yeah, I think it's impacting, you know, this topic has impacted so many individuals, you know, so it's directly impacting legislators and employers, and you know, we've been able, I think, have a huge strides because of that.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so as time time continues, I think it's going to be uh more, you know, much easier over time.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_02: So what advice would you give to parents or educators who are looking to better support and understand their autistic children or students?
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it it's two things.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I would say, you know, empathy is is always critical, trying to understand and you know their child's or others' perspectives, you know, and really getting to know them.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the but the other one is just, you know, um believing, believing that, you know, that they can, you know, reach their full potential, whatever that means, whatever that looks like, but just believing in individuals.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_02: Gotcha.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Well, Kenneth, I appreciate you being here on the show and I appreciate what you're doing in that space.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: And uh to the listening audience, I would say thank you for the privilege of your time.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: And if you enjoyed this episode, please hit the subscribe button and leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify so other parents can find us.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: And Kenneth, how would how do uh other than your website, how could somebody get a hold of you?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: So again, my website is just KennethMems.com, but for Science Prep Academy, our school, that's just SciencePrep Academy.com, and our organization is uh NeuroDiversity Education Research Center, and that's uh NeuroDiversityCenter.org.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_02: All right, that's wonderful.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for being here.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_02: All right, bye-bye.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Please tune in next week for another episode of our podcast on parenting adult children.