Latest / The Scout and The Speculator / Inside the Mind of a Pro Scout with Jheremy Brown - Episode 2

Transcript

Inside the Mind of a Pro Scout with Jheremy Brown - Episode 2 · The Scout and The Speculator

• Jaba: Hello everybody and welcome back to the Scout and the Speculator Podcast. This is Will Jarvis, also known as Jabba Cards. Joined as always by my co-host Jeremy Brown of Perfect Game Baseball. More importantly, JGB underscore cards underscore. And as always, this pro this podcast is brought to you by Prospect Pulse. On the app store is Prospect Pulse or found on the web as ProspectPulseV1.com. Absolute best place for all of your Bowman collecting, investing, researching needs. It's a great, great app, great service. Kinda takes all those different websites that look do little Bowman things, combines them into one. Best place for looking at auctions, looking at comps, tracking your collection. Just the greatest tool out there for serious Bowman investors. And if you use code Scout, you will get your first month free. cancel any time, no charge, things of that nature. Very excited to say that today we are back and filming episode number two of our series Inside of the Mind of a Pro Scout with Jeremy Brown. We're gonna try to not go too far inside his mind. I don't know what we'll uncover, but we have Jheremy: You don't want to. Jaba: I of course have a ton of questions for him. People have been sending questions. Keep those coming, we'll obviously prioritize the questions that people send us 'cause we want to get answers to the things you guys are curious about. So, Jeremy, let's let's get right into it. We had a bunch Jheremy: Okay. Jaba: of pitching questions, Jheremy: Yep. Jaba: and I'm going to start with one that's pretty specific, and Jheremy: Okay. Jaba: then we'll kind of get broader as we go. Jheremy: Okay. Jaba: When you're looking at a pitcher that is facing weaker competition versus a pitcher from an elite team, call it I don't know, a guy from the middle of nowhere versus a Seth Hernandez playing in California. Jheremy: Yep. Jaba: What are you looking to see out of those guys? Whether they be facing similarly strong competition, I know obviously the Seth Hernandez types, they probably make everyone look bad. But Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: if you're watching a kid that's facing the best of the best versus watching a kid that's facing hitters that aren't you know, particularly exciting to you. Jheremy: We're going to play at college. Yeah. Jaba: You know, what are what are kind of the things because I'm sure you're kind of grading, not necessarily on a scale, but I feel like it's hard to tell with some of these guys what is actually them being impressive versus them just blowing away guys that aren't that good. Jheremy: Right. And I think, I mean, we even, it's a good example, like up here, like we had Kaden McCarthy from Vermont this year who got drafted in the third round by the brave and got paid really well. It's like, how do you evaluate a kid from Vermont? Well, one, you have all of the summer stuff, national circuit stuff, like that, that's puts a lot of weight into that. See how, see how he does on the national stage against some of the top kids from California, Texas, Florida, everywhere in between. But that summer going into your senior year in your, or the spring of your senior year, draft year, big year, it's like, all right, for me, I'm going and seeing what the hitters are doing more than what the, not more than what the pitcher's doing, but I'm seeing how the hitters react to it. Like if you're going up against like a sub par or middle of the pack high school team in your region, in your regions like the Midwest or even up here in the Northeast, yes, you have your very good teams. You have very good players everywhere. but when it's a bunch of JGB cards, one through nine in the lineup, like, I'm gonna see if they're putting the barrel on the ball, comfortable they are. Are they laying off the breaking balls in the dirt? Are they able to read it out of the hand? Can they see and make that adjustment in the middle of an at bat where elite hitters are gonna do that because that's what they do. But now you have like kids who might not even play college baseball. Comfortably standing in against your fastball because there's not a lot a lot of life to it. There's no deception to it So I think like yes, you'd need to know obviously what the pitchers doing like if he's throwing 82 like it is what it is but if Jaba: Right. Jheremy: you're throwing 96 and the kids getting it the barrel around that Quite frankly like has no shot of playing at the next level like it is concerning to a degree because that's gonna probably probably be some underlying metrical stuff and Obviously you could change that you get them into the correct pitching system into the lab and fix a couple things like But yeah, I mean especially We see that the younger ages to with the 13 and 14 you stuff I do like kid throwing up her 80s at 13 like you shouldn't get hit So we Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: you have to look you have to take into account the bats you have to take into all of that Of course because they swing drop five bats at 13 you would bat at 14 years you can tell kind of there, too But again how comfortable kids are Cause that's not a VLO they see very often. So it's the equivalent of a senior throwing 96 to 99. Like how are those other kids comfortable in the box and what are their takes like? What are their swings? Like what are the reads? Like there's a lot of things you can glean from what a hitter does more so than even what a pitcher does. And I think looking kind of at just how the hitter reacts and the comfortability is a big thing for me personally. And that could change person to person, scout to scout. But that's something I like to Or watch. Jaba: For sure. And kinda kinda going off of that, this wasn't one of the questions we had, this is just something that came to my mind. Do you ever see pitchers? Obviously, like you said, the big thing for you is seeing if they're like making hitters uncomfortable, seeing how people react to their stuff. Are there ever guys at these showcases, and I'm I'm sure it probably happens at least once to everybody, but do you ever walk away from seeing an outing where a pitcher, if you look at his box score, you'd say, that's not good? Are there still times when a guy pitches and he gets either hit or for whatever reason doesn't have a good line? Are there still times when you're like, Wow, that kid's impressive, even if the line doesn't match it? Like how how closely correlated, I guess, are short. small samples of guys and kind of what you think of them. Like are there guys that have an off day and you're still like, okay, well that was still some impressive stuff, or would you say that the results are pretty much in line with the eye test at that level? Jheremy: No, I think definitely you can come away with something positive in an outing where the final line is dirty because I don't know, maybe the defense wasn't where they needed to be or they botched a ball this, that the other some, some things that you know would be cleaned up at the next level where it's like, okay, like whatever, like that should have been an out. Then he had to go to the stretch this, that, and the other happened. maybe you've seen them in the fastball got hit a ton, but the change up was like filthy. hadn't seen that kind of a change up. hadn't seen that kind of a feel of him throwing the change up. You're like, well, I know the fast ball is good. Now the change ups there and you are, I've already seen the breaking ball, like kind of what I talked about in the last one, just getting a couple more pieces for the puzzle every outing. There's going to be something you can take away in a positive, even in the most horrendous, unless he comes out, walks and hits everybody. And like, it's just not a good outing like at all. And that does happen. But that's farther and fewer between than a kid just letting up a couple runs because it just, it's the way it worked, right? Baseball's kind of like that. But there's still always something you can take away, I think, in terms, especially at the younger ages, even high school, like at the high school level, like there's still something that can always be had. Jaba: Yeah, I mean I'm sure especially the things you're doing with the thirteen and fourteen year olds. I'm sure a lot of those kids are coming into like the first showcases nervous. Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: And I feel like that not that, you know, thirteen and fourteen year olds are probably listening to this, but I I think it's interesting that you say, hey, unless it's basically just not even close, there's always Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: things that you can kinda take away and at least find good little specs. And I obviously you can't just put up bad lines every time out. But I do Jheremy: No, yeah. Jaba: Do love that analogy you have with the puzzle and finding pieces, and it's like, okay, well he flashed this and this start, he flashed that and that start. He Jheremy: Yep. Jaba: hasn't you know, maybe it's a guy who hasn't flashed it all at once, but it's like, okay, you know that these different things do exist in the player, Jheremy: Yep. Jaba: and it's something that whether it be a college program or a pro program, it's like, okay, like, do we think that can be tapped into and maximized almost? So Jheremy: Like one, one example that kind of comes to mind, like growing up, Jack lighter was like a very much a pitch ability guy, like hit his spots, pitch backwards would cruise. Then all of a sudden one summer, like a light, a switch just flicked for him. And he started throwing really hard. Like he went from like being a mid eighties touching 87 at like 15, like then he was 90 plus just like that. But there's a little more exertion, a little more effort. And with that came a little less refined command. So even if he walked a guy or two, you could at least take it away like, all right, he's got 90 plus in the tank now. We know he has that pitch ability. So once he puts it all together, finds that release point consistently, like that, now you know, like the next step is there for him. So that was just one example of a name recognizes recognition, recognizable name. There we go. That I think is like a real, real example of what I've seen. Jaba: Gotcha. I have another one but I think I can save it for another time 'cause I do want to bang out all the questions we were asked by this one listener. Jheremy: Okay. Jaba: Kinda goes off the last one. How can you tell if you're watching a kid pitch, especially at your level where I'm sure these kids aren't showing up at thirteen, fourteen with a four or five pitch arsenal, obviously? Jheremy: Right. Jaba: what are the things you look for that tell you, and I'm I'm sure it's not a perfect science, but if you see a kid with say really good fastball change, nothing else, what Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: about that player tells you if you think that they have the capacity of developing another plus pitch? You're developing even a couple more pitches that are serviceable or better. Like what Jheremy: Right. Jaba: what kind of separates those kids from the kids where you're like, like, you know, he's got the two pitches, but I don't really think he's gonna be able to add much more. Jheremy: Yeah, arm speed's a big one. Obviously to be able to spin a real breaking ball you have to have arm speed. Jaba: And how how do you find that? Do you look at like track man on spin rates? Jheremy: You can, if you have really high spin rates at an early age and you're not throwing that hard, it's kind of indicative that more VELOs going to come to have that kind of hand spin, hand speed to generate is like usually a precursor to more VELO. But if you did it, conversely, like I would say arm speed and say he only had a fast ball change up. would say that again, the comfort like of him being able to repeat a slot on a curve ball or on a fast ball change up. At least that's two different pitches, two different releases coming from the same slot where you should be able to mix in a cutter or a slider or a breaking ball, depending on where his actual arm slot is. And, mean, there's, I don't think there's an exact science. People are probably going to listen to this and be like, no, there's this, this, this, and this. But like, for me, it all comes down to their comfort level, truly comfort level arm speed. It's going to be hard to throw a hard breaking ball without a lot of arm speed. It's just obviously not possible. You're not throwing an 82 mile an hour slider when you have a fastball at 75. It's simple physics. Jaba: Right. Jheremy: Like it's not going to happen, but I don't have a direct answer, but I think those are a couple of things I would look for like as precursors to being able to develop or again, like maybe they have a breaking ball and they have the comfort of it to go to it like three up and they're going to go front door breaking ball on you like. It's there, the feel is there. Now we can refine it. We can throw it harder. We can, and you can mix it. You can shorten it, tighten it, make it a chase pitch, start at the knees, get it below the zone, start it up at the shoulders, end it as a, just to get me over early in the count pitch, all sorts of things that you can play off of depending on what they're showing you. Jaba: Gotcha. This one is kinda the opposite. This Jheremy: Hmph. Jaba: one's just basically straight you know, straight cheddar, straight baseball. Going by age, and of course, especially at your level, I Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: think this comes with the caveat that there's gonna be kids that just show up, you know, six months later and they're different looking humans and they have different Jheremy: yes. Jaba: physical capabilities. But can you give like a rough estimate by age of what velocity is you know, ma maybe give us what you would say the average fastball velocity is by age in your head and then And what's like a wow. Jheremy: so I'll keep it, I guess more of like the, level that I watched, like not the level, like age level, but like the national scene, because obviously the regular 12 year or the regular 13 year, if you took the average from around the country, he's going to be super low. Jaba: Right, right. Yeah. I I'm saying the average of you know, these are all the kids you're looking at where it's kinda I don't wanna say it's just the best of the best, but but like Jheremy: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean... Jaba: those high high end kids, like the Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: kids that are probably gonna play D one and better. Jheremy: Like 13U right now, honestly, like if everything works and you're watching players, like I've done notes and like recap articles on players touching 74 because they were long, they were lanky, the arm work, they were left handed. Mid 70s, honestly, for 13U is solid. If you're touching into the upper 70s, like you're taking notice, if you're scraping into the low 80s, you're like, okay. Like, I'm trying to think of what. I mean, last year we had a kid throwing 91 at 13 at the end of the summer. So like that is your outlier. That does not happen. That is like the once in every couple of years, you see something that's like 88 plus at 13U. It just doesn't happen that often that frequently. think the hardest 14U we've had probably like Grant Taylor, Alejandro Rosario at like 94 at 14, like which is bringing it like. And I mean look at those. Jaba: Were th w were they bigot they they must have had to be Jheremy: Grant was, Grant was big. Grant was lifting and definitely putting the work in the gym and like the legs. Cause you see him now and like he's strong as all get out. He's been that way his entire prep career. Jaba: Yeah, I think two. Jheremy: And then Rosario's just got that loose middle infield, whippy body where it's like that ball's humming. But I'll never forget like Dylan Cruz at 14 was turning around 92, like it was nothing. And that's like, aha, like mark that name down. Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: And like, all right, like that's that kid can handle VELO already. Jaba: Yeah, that's not normal. Jheremy: Like that's a guy you need to have exactly. I mean, like, mean, anything 80 plus at 13 you like, just think about it is, is hard. Like, Jaba: Yeah, that's insane. Jheremy: like you have D three kids will be upper seventies scraping into the low eighties. And you're talking about a 13 year old throwing that who's already six foot one. Jaba: Pre highest. Jheremy: 14 you will see every tournament, like bigger tournaments, like in terms of competition level, we'll have. Several guys be 85 plus, I would say pretty comfortably 83 plus like Throughout the course of like a three or four day tournament probably go a dozen or more be 83 or better But again, like I even both ages like anything 75 like in the mid to upper 70s like you have a shot like so many people want to chase the velo, but like If the operation works for me, that's just as important. Like operationally, Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: command, all sorts of things where, yeah, you might not be like the dude right now, but in four years, you certainly could be signing your NIL with a Power4 in the SSD. Jaba: Right. So so you're you're saying kinda it's great if you exceed the box, obviously if you far exceed kinda that benchmark, Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: it's probably a great sign. But for you, i is it fair to say it's more like, okay, like he checks the box, he hits that mid to high seventies benchmark and so long as you like either the physical motion or just the way the guy pitches, as long as they kinda clear that VLO benchmark. It's just like a okay, like good. Let's hope for more, but it's enough it's enough. Jheremy: Yeah, like write that name down, keep it in the back of your mind, like track them, follow them, like good body plus a good arm path plus like able to throw strikes and you're left handed and you're throwing 74. Like, yeah, we're going to write that one down and just watch what it becomes. that particular example, he was spinning a really good breaking ball that day too, this past summer. So just like a little thing. But then again, like in our 13U select festival, all American game equivalent. Like I think every kid was like 82 or better for a seven inning game. And we had a couple that were upper eighties, a couple one, I think we had two kids up to 90 or better at the 13U. So it's fun. It's, it's definitely when I tell people what I do, I'm like, but it's not your normal level of 13U that you think of before you judge me because especially like where we live, it's, it's different. So. Jaba: Right. yeah, I think that's interesting 'cause obviously the VLO is what gets eyeballs. That's why guys like I mean, obviously it is a major part of why guys like Miz are so special, but Jheremy: Yes. Jaba: more than anything, I feel like it's why those guys go so viral too, because even casual fans or people that don't even like baseball that much, I think anyone can see a one hundred and four mile an hour fastball and be like, Damn, that's awesome. So Jheremy: I've never even driven a car that hard, that fast, and he's throwing a baseball that hard. Jaba: Yeah, yeah. I I I think it's good to hear not only you know, the benchmarks by age, but kind of how much weight goes into it at what age and like obviously again you wanna be hitting those benchmarks, but it's not like it's the only thing either. It it's obviously a key component, but Jheremy: Yep. Jaba: it doesn't sound like it's ha as long as you're hitting a certain level, it's not like it's all about velocity. Jheremy: No, and I mean, we're talking about kids who aren't even in high school yet for another year or two. you can. know people want to chase it. It is what grabs your attention. But. The end of the day, just watch all of it. I watch try to watch a little bit of everything and see everybody out there, so. Jaba: why it w the question is why is it harder to project pitchers versus hitters? I guess I'll add, is that true? And if so, why? Jheremy: I think, I do think hitting a baseball is the hardest thing in the world. Like you're hitting a round object with a round bat and you have less than a second reaction time. Pitching is more of a game of cat and mouse. Your whole job as a pitcher is to disrupt the hitter's timing. So you have to have more than two pitches because I mean, if it's not a heater, you're just going to adjust breaker, right? Like, but pitching also isn't easy. You have to sequence, have to hit locations, you have to hit your spots and you have to do it for 90 pitches a game, hopefully. So I do think pitching projecting hitters is harder than projecting pitchers because at the end of the day, like if you have command and you throw hard, you're going to have a shot like in pro ball, right? Like feels exactly Jaba: Right. Someone'll take a flyer. Jheremy: like Andre Hidalgo. I don't know how he comes into this, but he's six, five, 17 throwing 99. Like you feel pretty good about him staying six foot five. He's still going to be left-handed in three years and odds are he's going to be mid to upper nineties in three years. Like a hitter like who Josh Adams, Zewski got drafted and then went and put on 20 pounds like immediately and change his whole overall profile. And how many sure fire like no doubt guys have there been that never made it above a ball because hitting's really hard. Hitting is like I think the hardest thing in sports is hitting a baseball. Like. Jaba: Yeah, and I I mean, I'd be curious if you agree, but I feel like really at any level In the minors and you even see it in the majors. I Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: feel like the pitchers with the big stuff or even just like a big frame and some stuff, I feel like those guys hang around a lot longer than Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: hitters who just don't put up results. Like I feel like you'll see a lot of DSL hitters or single A hitters, you know, you'll check their MILB page after like a year and you'll see release. I Jheremy: released. Yeah. Jaba: feel like pitchers do get kind of every chance. in the world if they have, Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: you know, the build and the stuff. It seems like those guys it it takes a while for them to get totally given up on. Jheremy: Right. Jaba: Whereas hitters, you know, at least from my thinking, it seems like hitters, it's like at a cer like you have to show some results faster. Like Jheremy: Right. Jaba: it's way less about like, well there's this potential and that. Jheremy: I'm trying to pull up, just real quick while we talk, just, you brought up Miz, like, what his career was, uh-oh, it just has two years. One is, one is, other page i don't want is just big league stats like he had command issues coming through like it was like Jaba: Right. Jheremy: he might be a reliever and guess what he figured it out in a big way like even spring training prior to his rookie year last year like was like i remember watching it's like he's walking like two or three and inning already like in the first Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: sitting of watching him on mlb tv And then he just kind of figured it out. I'm not saying everybody's going to figure out how to throw strikes. That's not easy. It's not easy to just flip that switch either. Like, but I don't know. It's just, he, he clearly did it. And I don't know. I guess that's an example of why predicting pitching isn't easy because command could come Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: command couldn't come like, but for him, it did. He's also a unicorn. Like everything he does is like freaky. So. Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: To use them as the example that comes to my mind probably isn't fair either, so... Jaba: Yeah, 'cause some guys just don't fit in that box, some guys just aren't normal. Jheremy: Right. And you have so many more metrics for pitching to that a team's analyst might see and be like, we can work with this. Let's try doing this. Let's try to lower his slot. Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: Let's try to implement this pitch or what the Rays did with Freddie Peralta. Hey, let's let him throw his best pitch more. Jaba: Okay. Jheremy: Like go Mets. It's shocking that you let a pitcher throw his best pitch more often and he excels. Jaba: Yeah. He he just can't handle a big market. Jheremy: That's right. Don't video lights, baby. Jaba: we got two more. I'm gonna lead with one that's more kind of a technical question, I guess, and then we'll finish with kind of an easy fun one. Are there any players, and I'm sure you're seeing this more. I mean, would you say that there's a lot more guys going two way, like at a serious level for both, or is it just more prevalent to people like me? Because I feel like, you know, you look at the Mets, they've been drafting a ton of two way guys, Benj, McLean, Mitch Voigt, Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: all guys who played both positions in college, and obviously Benj and Voigt dropped pitching, but McLean was hitting until double A. Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: Do you ever or I guess are there any specific examples of guys you saw, whether it be when they were seventeen, eighteen, about to head off to college, or guys at your level? It's probably more interesting if it's older. Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: any guys that you thought would hit or pitch, but then they wound up doing the opposite. And I guess this is more for guys where like point A is where you saw them, and then point B, they're either good college players or now in the minor league. Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, for sure. And obviously at 13, 14, everybody's a two way. Like you're going to throw everybody's got, Jaba: Right. Jheremy: and you never want to pigeonhole a kid and say, he's a PO, a primary arm, like primary pitcher. Pitching only is what PO stands for, but, or like he has no shot at pitching because you don't know. And I mean, 14, you Christian Moore played in our game. He was up to 90 as an arm and was definitely like a arm over bat. And then he goes on to Tennessee, gets drafted in the top 10, debuts the next year. And it's like, guess you were a hitter. So that was like, that's a very first one that comes to mind. And I'm sure there's countless other examples. if I can't rock my brain real quick, we can keep going. Like that's, that's one Jaba: Yeah, I mean I I I'm sure it's tough because Jheremy: that comes right to mind. I see them so young that they do both. It's just like what my preference was to them as a player at that age. Yeah. Jaba: Right. And they're all such good athletes. Jheremy: Exactly. Like KG, Connor Griffin was like up to 90 at 14, but he also ran a six, seven, six, eight, and was putting balls to the green monster. Like you never knew, you knew his athleticism was too good to make a primary arm. Like you weren't ever going to do that. Obviously. Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: I mean, Bryce Rainer, Bryce Rainer all the way through high school kind of had a split camp of whether he was going to be an arm or a bat. long-term cause he was like that long athletic middle infielder from SoCal who would casually run it into the mid nineties. And it's like, okay. And then obviously he ended up doing what he did offensively and came out as a left-handed thing, shortstop. Billy Carlson was the same way. He could run it up to 95 with a really good change up, but he was so good defensively. You're not giving Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: up that premium position. I'm sure if I pulled up a draft or two and look through it, Jaba: One one name I'm curious about personally. I know from doing some research before Bowman Draft came out, Josh Hammond, it seems like he was Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: known I mean, it's o obviously any of these guys that are two way guys getting drafted that high are good at both. But from Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: what I read it sounded like going into his senior year it was like potential first round pitcher and, you know, not a top five round hitter. I don't know Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: how true it is, but loosely I remember that being the vibe and then his senior year he gave up pitching and turned himself into a obviously a first round hitter and he hit Jheremy: Yep. Jaba: I don't know if he hit three hundred this year in single A, but he was close. Jheremy: You had a good year. Jaba: I don't know if that's a guy that was a perfect game guy, but do you have any like thoughts on that? Jheremy: Yup. Yeah, he, he actually went to Wesley and Christian and I think he relieved his senior year, like much shorter stints as opposed to starting. I mean, he was, I'm looking like his senior year, he was up to 97. So like the arm speed was real. The arm strength was real. And even as an underclassman, he was throwing like bowling balls, like super heavy fastballs that were just sinking and they were hard. But he, that, yeah, he definitely, once he focused more so on pitching, he was always strong. always built, always physical. I'm just trying to pull up like some of his older like metrics on our website. So like his junior year, summer going into his junior year, he was 61, 205, like up to 94 on the mound, ran a six, seven through 95 across, had an exit VELO of 97. So like brute strength is there, very strong, can confirm. But then like even his curve ball had a 27. 100 RPM, his slider was 2842 change up with 1688 like change ups. want that super low spin cause you're killing it. Meaning it's going to slider Jaba: Right. Jheremy: breaking balls. want higher 3000 plus is like freaky in the big leagues. So for a high school kid to have a 2,800, what I say a 1700 change up and be up to 94 as a rising junior. Yeah, you have some real potential there, but then he just figured it out with the bat. Let the world on fire as senior year. How'd I think like. I want to say like 18 home runs. could be completely making that number up, but for some reason that's like what came to the top when the claw goes down in the machine. That's the number I grabbed out of my brain. but yeah, if I couldn't have any other examples, I was just going to end with like two weighings really hard, like really hard Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: and like name how many big leaguers have done it? Like recently. Jaba: Are we including like Michael Lorenzo? Jheremy: I mean sure, because you're dating yourself big time there. Jaba: Okay, then like four guys have done it in any capacity probably. Maybe less. Jheremy: Right. And you take away Shohei and not many people are going to be able to name one because I don't think they remember Michael Lorenzen even. that is one I go to. But like, Jaba: Like him, Micah Owings. Jheremy: right. And that now you're going even further back. Jaba: I don't even know if he played the field. I I just know that he had power. I know he would pinch hit. But Yeah. That's how the Mets got David Jheremy: And my Campton had power too, right? Like my Campton probably would have been, Jaba: Reddick. Jheremy: he probably would have been a two, could have been a two way type before it was like a thing. But like, I think a lot of people Jaba: DeGrom. Jheremy: we're gonna, yeah, college shortstop. There's one that like, I never saw them, but like college shortstop, Jaba: Don't matter. Jheremy: go hatters. A lot of people I think fall into that trap with Bowman. We've seen it. where it's like, eventually Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: they're going to have to give up one of them. You can't include Shohei because Shohei is a unicorn. Shohei is Jaba: Right. Jheremy: literally a once in a generation player. Like, and even he's now is like kind of leaning towards bat heavy, right? Because of the arm issues now. Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: You're going to see it in college all the time. You're going to hear names in college with it for sure. Like, why wouldn't you want a player if you're a college coach? Like you get two for the price of one scholarship. Makes sense to me. Jaba: Right. Jheremy: just in pro ball, you have to get your reps on the cage. You have to do your side pens. You have to do all your throwing stuff, all your like just everything. It's a lot. It's a lot for, it's a big demand of time, a big demand of physicality of being able to endure it. There's just a lot that goes into it. And like, Shatara Mori came over and you have Josh Owens and I'm sure there's some more that people like are buying and kind of inflating the prices off of the premise that they could. i think came from the rangers was another two way that gets like for Jaba: Yeah. I I I I was gonna say that, I didn't wanna be wrong. Yeah, their Bowman prices go crazy. Jheremy: like they're going to be able to do it in, they're going to be able to do it in short stints, but like it's really hard to like, Jaba: Yeah, and be good at the MLB level or both. Jheremy: just to be good at the MLB level for one is like, you're one of the Jaba: Right. Jheremy: best how what's, what's, I don't know the quick math, one of the best 600 players in the world to be on Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: a big league roster at any given time. Like that's hard. Jaba: Yeah, and I I feel like even looking deeper into it, like logically, it's like, okay, the second one of these things starts to lag behind the other you're Jheremy: Yep. Jaba: you know, call it ten ten hours a day to work on things. Obviously they don't work on things for I I'm just using ten. Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Jaba: It's like, you know, at a at a certain point it's like, okay, are we really maximizing this guy doing five and five or you know, are we gonna get a more special player, you know, ditch Jheremy: Right. Jaba: the duality, yeah, it's great if it works, but there's one example of it working. Or Jheremy: Right. Jaba: or do we put ten hours into the one bucket and kick the other bucket to the side and say, Okay, like we'd rather have you become good at one thing than, you know, either fizzle out or not reach you know close to your potential at both. I I think obviously everyone appreciates Shohei and I think sees how special of a player he is but even when we have conversations about it and you're talking about him I think it for me even as like a diehard baseball fan who sees Shohei and is like yeah this is really special and unique when I I talk to you about it, I think it's even more magnified by the way you talk about it, because Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: it's like it it is just so rare and so difficult. And I mean, you said one once in a gen generation type player. I mean it it for me it's like, you know, that could kind of be a once in a lifetime thing, being that good at both. I I mean Jheremy: Yeah, for sure. Jaba: it's like I I I wonder if like in my life if we'll see another guy who can do it. And I'm sure, you know, as people get more athletic Maybe, but it's just kind of crazy because I mean you just listed a bunch of guys that are known for being freak athletes, and you know, at a certain point it's like, no, this isn't even the right development path. But before Jheremy: Right. Jaba: we get too off on a tangent, Jheremy: i found that josh and had six on runs as a senior he had four seventy one with Jaba: Okay. Jheremy: forty hits they only they only played twenty nine games eleven or be eyes eleven doubles three trebles six eighteen close enough Jaba: And isn't his dad the coach at High Point? Jheremy: Yeah, Joey. Yep. Jaba: Do you and I don't know if this is gonna be too I guess small a sample. But when you see kids whose fathers are coaches at high level, I don't even want to get into the kids whose fathers were MLB players because I know there's so many Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: of those and that's just a huge sample. But would you say that like and I guess this is just off the top of my head, like would you say that the coach's son types and we're saying, you know, manager of a college team or minor Jheremy: Mm. Jaba: league or something like that? Would you say that those kids like fundamentally come in with a stronger base or is it still like as random as ever. Like for me, I remember when I saw Jheremy: No, they definitely have, like... Jaba: Hammond, I was like, like his dad's a college coach. Like that's probably a plus. Is Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: is that a plus or is that just kind of meaningless too? Right. Jheremy: No, mean, because they grew up around it. At the end of the day, the family moves to wherever the dad is. The little kid's probably going to be around dad, just like that Ethan Holiday mega variation where he's a little kid out on the field. Like that's going to happen. Jaba: Yeah, really cool. Jheremy: He's going to grow up in the weight room. He's going to grow up on the field. Yeah, sure. Let's give him some hacks. Let him take some ground balls here and there. And he's going to learn from guys. He's going to understand what it takes to actually succeed at the next level. Right? Like, it's, it's not like me where I thought I was just going to wake up one day and start throwing 90. Like that doesn't happen. Shocking. like you actually have to put in the work and it gives you that work ethic. lets you know, like what it is and what, like what you actually have to put in and some of those little things too, like game management, the refinements that high baseball IQ. I definitely think players come out with a head up, a heads up on others like early on, like, more of Melendez his kid, MJ Melendez, obviously a big leaguer played for the Mets for a little bit. Super refined as a super refined coming out even as a prep catcher, like had an absolute bazooka. Dad also Jaba: Right. Jheremy: had a ton of coaching clinics. Like that's the first one that comes to mind that I can think of. His brother, Jaden was an all-American played in the 14 new game. Like there's something definitely to be said. And somebody that works with us who coached at High Point, Craig Kozart, his kid, Sam Kozart is now at High Point or no, sorry, is now at Texas. Probably going to be their Friday night guy. Older brother Jacob is now the catcher. He got traded. What do you get traded to at the deadline? giants, I want to say. Jaba: Is that related to the Zak Kozart family trait? Jheremy: No, no, not that I'm aware of, though his brother did work for us. So he's in the, he's with rocket city trash pandas now. So he got traded to the angels. I was in the correct state at least. But like there's another college coach who's has two of his kids and his older son played a D one baseball as well. Like he had three kids, one's playing pro one played D one. The other ones, might be the Friday guy, Saturday guy for a top five team in the country as a sophomore. Like, that's an example. Jaba: Yeah. Yeah, I g I guess even like E like the Evil brothers, their dad is he what is he, the third base coach for the Dodge? Yeah. Jheremy: Third base coach. I mean, you have George Lombard senior. He was a big leaguer as well, but like he's a bench coach now as Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: George and Jacob. Like it's definitely a thing and it's not like, he's his kid. Let's draft him high. Like we see kids Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: get drafted late all the time. Who's parents or something. And it's like, yeah, okay. But if you're investing millions of dollars into them, it's because they're actually worth it as well. Jaba: Yeah, and I I think it's interesting, like kinda like the first place my head goes when I think about that will be like, okay, like, you know, in terms of thinking the game and the strategy and what goes into it, Jheremy: Hmm. Jaba: that is kinda where I figured you would say they have a a leg up. H Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: you did. But the interesting part to me was you saying that they understand what goes into it and kind of how growth happens and how these players get to the levels they do. I think that that's really Jheremy: Great. Jaba: interesting. Like you saying, like growing up around the weight room, seeing these guys off the field and kind of like what it takes to get to that level. You know, Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: that's something that I wouldn't have thought of, you know, seeing kind of not only the work that goes in, but you know, you're seeing a new team every year, basically. I mean, you're Jheremy: Uh-huh. Jaba: you're seeing a lot of guys. I'm sure you see the talented guys who don't work out, the guys that come in that aren't that special that do work out. I Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Jaba: mean, I I I'm sure just by seeing all those guys, you kind of learn like not even like what to do and not to do, but like I I feel like you would get just such a leg up in terms of gnawing like what you have to do to be successful like that first experience. Jheremy: for sure. Plus like, plus your dad's resources. You can go to the school gym, you can do this, you can hit here. Now Jaba: Right. Jheremy: you have all these different track mans and systems you can use, Traject, all that. Not to mention, if dad's around for a while, dad probably has some connections to former players who are in the big leagues that can help you with things too. Come back and train with dad or come back and train at the school. Like you definitely get some added advantage to that for sure. So I know that was probably a longer answer than you were expecting. Jaba: Sure. I I think it's really interesting. I mean, I think it's kinda one of those things everyone wonders and nobody knows kind of exactly what the correlation is. And that's obviously something that you are very unique and kinda knowing the answer to. All right. Final question. I don't wanna ask who's the best pitcher you've seen. boy, the Nido King is back. I don't wanna say who's the best pitcher you've seen, 'cause I'm sure you've seen thousands upon thousands. Jheremy: huh. Jaba: but just maybe give me like five names of just kids you saw and you were just like you know, well. Or as Jheremy: boy. boy. Jaba: many names as you want. I mean, I know ranking them is futile, but Jheremy: boy. Well, Grant Taylor was throwing like 89 when he was like 13, which was unheard of at that time. And when you first heard that, it's like, what? that was that it's going to be more moments that like stood out to me than particular players because there's a ton of those for sure. Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: I think he ended up making it to the big leagues. Riley Pint. The first time he threw on the national circuit, he was from like La Nexa, Texas, Kansas rather, and the name we don't Jaba: Yeah. He retired last year. Jheremy: It was a name we had always heard, but never threw on the national circuit. I was just watching my old YouTube video of him. And he finally came and threw it either like our 16, I think it was our 16 new WWBA and it was a sea of scouts, radar guns for every pitch. I want to say he was up to 99 and it's like, he threw a knuckle curve in the low eighties at just like 12, six look like a wiffle ball. It was like, he's real. And he's really real. Like the stuff, was just electric and just one of those outings that even 10 years ago, like, this is what it's like to see a big arm. one summer I was out watching team elite play and they brought in this big six foot three, 220 pound right-hander. Had no idea who he was. The roster didn't line up. The numbers didn't match up. He wasn't even on the roster. And you're watching them and it's like, this is super smooth, super easy. It's like up to 91. Like, I hope this is a rising senior and we can get them committed and find them a school because this kid will be great. Turns out he was like a sophomore. You go ask the coach who it is. that's a Kumar rocker. Like that was the first time we had ever seen Kumar live as a company. And I remember just going back and being like, well, boys, I got the new number one player in the country. And it was like, We shot them up there. I don't know if he became one or two right away. And it was like, just one of those, you don't often find it type deals where like Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: he wasn't on a roster, but there are a handful of coaches, a couple of agents back there watching other players. And that happens a lot too. Like you go to watch player A and player B is like, who's that kid? But Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: he was just like a super young physical righty that like, again, this was what Kumar back then had to be at least 10 years ago. I would imagine. Jaba: Yeah, 'cause I mean he he's probably twenty five now, twenty six. Jheremy: Give or take-ish, yeah. mean, thank God we have the internet. I'm a rocker age. Jaba: I I remember, I mean, when he was at Vandy, I mean, going into that first draft year when the Mets took him before he failed the medical or whatever happened. Jheremy: Mm-hmm. So he's 26. So yeah, like literally 10 years ago. Jaba: Yeah, I I feel like he in that year he had, I guess it would have been his junior year, I feel like he, at least from someone who watches a lot of baseball but isn't super into college baseball, I feel like if anything, he was even more hyped up than Skeens was. Jheremy: Mm-hmm. Yeah, he definitely and then what he did like in the college rules series like Exactly. Yeah Jaba: He was throwing like no hitters in the col yeah. I I mean he he was I was so excited when the Mets drafted him and un unfortunately, you know seems like the medical situation. Jheremy: Yeah, but like that was just one of those moments where it's like he wasn't ranked at all, like kind of on our radar because he had thrown at a tournament earlier that summer, but like off site. So we didn't really see him. And then he comes out of nowhere and it's like, yeah, Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: this is really good. And that, mean, it's crazy to say, and I know former big leaguers will be like, no, they threw just as hard back in the day. Like you weren't seeing 90 from a sophomore all the time. Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: there as frequent i won't say all the time as you still see it all the time but at nearly not nearly as frequently as we see it now i think that's Jaba: Yeah, like I I saw a video the other day of like a Barry Zito start fifteen years ago on the playoffs. Jheremy: I saw that. Jaba: And he was like dotting like eighty five mile an hour fastballs up in the zone and I mean, like you said, it's not even to get into like the you know, all the velocity arguments going on, the analytics arguments, but like Jheremy: Bye bye. Jaba: I feel like one thing is true from hearing what you have to say. It's like the velocity that these kids have is Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: rapidly increasing, you know, even even versus a decade ago. Yeah. Jheremy: Like kids are just bigger, faster, stronger at an earlier age. Like that is probably the biggest thing. Like as it is, like these kids are just big, like 13, 12, 13 year old full teams are bigger than I am. I'm not big, like six foot, but a six foot 13 year old's pretty big. Like Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: we had a, mean, it's just, it's impressive what these guys are able to do. Obviously they're putting in work. You have more specialization now you have. drills for this, trainers for that, nutritionists for this, like obviously nutritionist Jaba: Right. Jheremy: is for food, but you know, like, I mean, you can just be so specialized now and that's not even to take Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: away, like I bring Connor back up. He could have probably gone D1 in football, basketball or baseball if he truly pursued either of any of the three. Like Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: Kevin Roberts, who the Orioles took in the fourth or fifth round, he got a million this year. Out of the same high school Jackson prep like he had D1 offers in football, maybe not football, but definitely in basketball because he was dunking it like as a freshman and it's Jaba: Yeah. Jheremy: just a freaky athlete. Like I just think the athleticism is way up from back in the day. Jaba: Yeah, that that reminds me, I don't know if I've told you, but in like seventh grade, I went to the same school Jheremy: You don't? Jaba: as yeah. I grew up Yeah, I I grew up going Jheremy: know who this is. Dave told me. Dave told me. The spider. Jaba: to school with Donovan Mitchell. Jheremy: Yup. Jaba: he outstanding human being, awesome guy. Like I I don't talk to him anymore. Like it's I'm I'm not saying like we're we're boys or anything. But he he is a great guy. was always just like the nicest guy ever. And I remember in like seventh, eighth grade he was dunking a basketball, like shooting threes so easily. Like it kind of looked like we just brought like a ringer in 'cause like he would literally Jheremy: Yeah Jaba: be doing like dunks in the layup line and we're playing, you know, some other team of these kids that can barely make layups and like you'd Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: see I'm kinda looking what it it's funny 'cause like you talk about the athleticism. I remember Donovan was cause his father, Donovan Sr., I don't know if he played in the MLB, but I know he's worked in the Mets organization for a long, long time. And Donovan would pl when he played baseball, he was throwing like mid to high eighties. And I know I think freshman year of high school, I think he like broke his wrist in a play at the plate and he was so good at basketball where it was just like a stop. Jheremy: That's it. Yeah. Jaba: But like it it it's funny like you mentioned these athletes because like I'm not a scout, I don't you know, know the exact metrics, Jheremy: You can pretend to be. Jaba: but like he he a hundred percent like probably like if he had focused on baseball, he would have been a D one baseball player. I mean so I you would Jheremy: Right Jaba: see him pitching and it was like that's crazy. Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: and I obviously the basketball I weighted now he's all NBA player. Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: but yeah, I mean when you talk about these freak athletes, it's like, you know, if you see one, you know one. Or he just stops you, Jheremy: Great. Yeah. Jaba: you know, if you're anyone and kinda watching any sport, you know, you see some of these kids and it's just like that guy is special. Jheremy: That's different. Like... Yup. Jaba: but Yeah, no, so I think that wraps up this episode. A little pitcher heavy, fine by me. I've always enjoyed you know, kind of the psychology and what goes into pitching. Jheremy: Yeah. Jaba: I think it was fascinating as always. I love kinda hearing what you're gonna say, even some questions where I think I know what you're gonna say. A lot of the time, you know, there's a lot more to it and a lot of stuff that I wouldn't have even thought to ask about or think about. So I think people Jheremy: Love it. Jaba: love these episodes. Episodes. I know the first one did really well, and I'm sure this will too. Again, if readers have any questions, please send them on in. We'll prioritize those. I have enough to film probably 30 hours of these Jheremy: Hehe Jaba: without stopping. But at the end of the day, I want your guys' questions to get answered ahead of mine. I'm sure there will be overlap, and yeah, send those in. Don't be a stranger. And Jheremy: Send them all. Jaba: yeah, I mean I think Jeremy loves talking about it. I love hearing him talk about. About it, so we're gonna continue them. And yeah, thanks everyone for listening. And let's go, Matt's.