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Aaron Burr, Part Two: The Fall of a Guy Nobody Liked · Ridiculous History

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  Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
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  Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
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  Speaker 1: for tuning in. This is part two to two of
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  Speaker 1: Aaron Burr Burr Perfect America's Drunk Uncle. Big shout out
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  Speaker 1: to our super producer research associate mister Max Williams. I'm ben,
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  Speaker 1: big shout out to you know. Oh, we got a
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  Speaker 1: lot of weird stuff ahead, sad stuff.
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  Speaker 2: A lot of weird stuff, sad stuff, copiously little drinking.
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  Speaker 2: But I think Matt Max points out somewhere in this
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  Speaker 2: episode that everyone was just kind of drunk all the time.
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  Speaker 3: And Burr, I think he just the the whole drunk
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  Speaker 3: uncle thing.
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  Speaker 2: It's just more of like a kind of a crystallization
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  Speaker 2: of his personality.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm still this will make sense later, folks. I'm
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  Speaker 1: still looking at this old Delmonico's menu and I just
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  Speaker 1: can't figure out some of the things on here. What
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  Speaker 1: is cabinet putting.
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  Speaker 2: It's just like putting that you leave in a cabinet
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  Speaker 2: for a really long time and just see what happens.
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  Speaker 3: Roll the dice.
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  Speaker 1: This battle for New York is bad, and on some level, Burr,
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  Speaker 1: despite his own miscalculations and his own warts and imperfections
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  Speaker 1: and ugly bumps of her career. He says, Hamilton is
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  Speaker 1: one of the big reasons I lost this election. That's
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  Speaker 1: probably not true, but what we're saying is there was
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  Speaker 1: already a lot of baggage and these guys were carrying around.
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  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean the biography we're referring to refers
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  Speaker 2: to Hamilton as despising Burr at this point. Yes, so
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  Speaker 2: there's definitely like serious bad blood between these gentlemen that
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  Speaker 2: is just starting to metastasized.
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  Speaker 3: Can blood metastasize? Sure?
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  Speaker 1: For the purposes of description, you get it, you get blood.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Cancer is a real thing, frightening. We actually talked about that,
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  Speaker 1: I think on our Saxophone episode at some point.
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  Speaker 3: Ah, yes, the Sexyphone episode. Yes.
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  Speaker 1: And so this big duel that is one of the
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  Speaker 1: climactic moments of the Hamilton Musical. It happens because of
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  Speaker 1: a kind of a slight thing, like a tiny misstep,
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  Speaker 1: where ordinarily you would just talk it out with your buddy,
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  Speaker 1: but at this point their relationship is like cans of
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  Speaker 1: open paint and oily rags in a non ventilated room
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  Speaker 1: where someone keeps playing with a lighter, even though the
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  Speaker 1: lighters weren't invented yet. You get it. So in eighteen
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  Speaker 1: o four, it's February, it's cold out. There's a guy,
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  Speaker 1: doctor Charles D. Cooper, aka the Coops is what is
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  Speaker 1: boys called them back in the day.
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  Speaker 3: They're all hanging with mister Cooper.
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  Speaker 1: So the Coops is at this dinner party and at
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  Speaker 1: this party, you know, which is just an opportunity for
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  Speaker 1: network and talking for these guys, thank you for the beatbacks.
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  Speaker 1: At this party, Hamilton's like, you know, who sucks Aaron Burr?
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  Speaker 1: That guy's just like the worst. And then some people
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  Speaker 1: turn around and he like stands up. I'm picturing it
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  Speaker 1: like nineteen like nineteen eighties comic, you know, and standing
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  Speaker 1: up and he's like, first off, Burr.
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  Speaker 3: What's the deal with the burg guy? Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: An article on PBS The American Experience described him as
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  Speaker 2: speaking eloquently and forcefully against Burr. Cooper later wrote a
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  Speaker 2: letter to Philip I think it's Skylar, and I think
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  Speaker 2: I might have said Shoy Schuler earlier. It's s c
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  Speaker 2: h u y l e R. It's an unfair name,
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  Speaker 2: and I think so too. It's like one of those,
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  Speaker 2: it's like worst, It's like Hermione. You know, you read
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  Speaker 2: it in the book, you think it in your head,
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  Speaker 2: and then you say it out loud and you were
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  Speaker 2: wrong the whole time.
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  Speaker 1: Or New Madrid out in uh out in Missouri.
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  Speaker 3: That's right, exactly.
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  Speaker 2: So in this letter he made a reference to a
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  Speaker 2: particularly quote despicable opinion that Hamilton had had shared about Burn.
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  Speaker 1: He was like, I don't think he washes his butt. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: and everyone said, you know what, I can see it
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  Speaker 1: seems legit.
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  Speaker 2: And then, of course, you know, to add insult to injury,
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  Speaker 2: the letter gets.
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  Speaker 3: Published in the New York newspaper. How does that? That
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  Speaker 3: doesn't seem right? That seems real dirty?
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  Speaker 1: Well, this is also their main source of publicly shared
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  Speaker 1: in This is their Twitter, the social.
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  Speaker 2: Media, but like to publish a private was it with
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  Speaker 2: his knowledge he or was it with the writer's knowledge?
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  Speaker 1: This This letter is written by Cooper to Hamilton's father
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  Speaker 1: in law, so the word gets around. It's Cooper who's
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  Speaker 1: telling tales outside of school, that's right. So Hamilton is
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  Speaker 1: not asked about this being published. We've seen examples of
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  Speaker 1: this too. I believe it was that remember the duel
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  Speaker 1: with Lincoln where there were like some letters, there was
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  Speaker 1: a letter talking to went too far because that went
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  Speaker 1: a little too far. So you're right, that was exactly
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  Speaker 1: the Twitter comparison is. This is completely appropriate. So in
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  Speaker 1: June Burr sees this. Obviously he's humiliated once again. You know,
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  Speaker 1: he's not happy, he's not happy about it. He writes
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  Speaker 1: a letter to Hamilton demanding satisfaction, sir, or at the
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  Speaker 1: very least, what's up to what gifts? Bro? WTF? And
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  Speaker 1: so they have this correspondence and you can see this
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  Speaker 1: in the musical where they go back and forth with
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  Speaker 1: letters signing things your obedient servant, because they were very
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  Speaker 1: polite even when they were saying terrible things to and
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  Speaker 1: about each other. Ultimately, yes, Bird demands that Hamilton denies
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  Speaker 1: ever talking trash about him, which sounds kind of childish
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  Speaker 1: for grown men, but he's says, that's the only thing
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  Speaker 1: that will repair this. You got to go out in
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  Speaker 1: public and say I'm not that bad, and you never
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  Speaker 1: set that stuff at the party. And this is back
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  Speaker 1: when you could just sort of erase history that way.
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  Speaker 1: But Hamilton says, hey, I'm principal too, dog, I'm not
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  Speaker 1: gonna comply with your demand that would sacrifice my own
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  Speaker 1: political career. And yes, my eldest son, Philip died in
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  Speaker 1: a duel just three years ago. I oppose dueling.
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  Speaker 3: But I'm also you know, not gonna be a lill baby.
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  Speaker 1: But if you want to fart around, you're gonna find out.
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  Speaker 1: I heard you don't wash your butt.
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  Speaker 3: That's that's what they say. I think perhaps.
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  Speaker 1: Really classing it up for a special guest.
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  Speaker 3: Alex, I know that's what we do, that's how we
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  Speaker 3: do it. We're all class here.
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  Speaker 2: That's wild man. I didn't realize that his son had
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  Speaker 2: died in a duel. That was also like the idea
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  Speaker 2: of dying in a duel. It just it seems like
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  Speaker 2: so far removed from our modern day. I guess it's
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  Speaker 2: you know, it's it's more of like a gentlemanly way
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  Speaker 2: to die, but also a very unfortunate, preventable way to die.
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  Speaker 3: Now it's just called getting shot.
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  Speaker 1: Duels were it's I was thinking about this as we
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  Speaker 1: were getting ready for this episode last week. You know,
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  Speaker 1: duels back then at that time were kind of like
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  Speaker 1: how cannabis law is in the United States today.
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  Speaker 2: We talked about this in the Lincoln episode to where
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  Speaker 2: they had to find a spot that was like.
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  Speaker 3: A gray area where chill spot.
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  Speaker 2: It was decriminalized, you know, dueling, possession of a dueling
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  Speaker 2: pistol was okay.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, so duels are illegal at the time, both in
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  Speaker 1: New York and in New Jersey. But as they say,
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  Speaker 1: everything's legal in New Jersey. So the punishment for dueling,
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  Speaker 1: for beefing up with pistols or swords, sabers or weapon
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  Speaker 1: of choice, it's a lot more chill in New Jersey.
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  Speaker 1: It's a lot less of a serious thing. So if
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  Speaker 1: you kill someone in Jersey and you say, hey, we're
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  Speaker 1: having a duel, I'll be like, I don't like it,
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  Speaker 1: but hey, be on your way.
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  Speaker 2: Indeed, so they did need to maintain an air of
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  Speaker 2: secrecy around the right. It's because of the ify legal
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  Speaker 2: you know waters and speaking of waters, in order to
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  Speaker 2: keep that secret, they both left Manhattan separately from separate
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  Speaker 2: docks before dawn. Pistols at dawn. Yeah, it's all coming
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  Speaker 2: together now, five am.
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  Speaker 1: If you win. What a great way to start the day.
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  Speaker 3: I suppose.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I mean your breath, that breath of fresh air is
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  Speaker 2: like a breath of freedom. It's like you're you know,
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  Speaker 2: the first day of the rest of your life. This
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  Speaker 2: is July eleventh, by the way of eighteen oh four.
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  Speaker 2: But this is also larger than life, we should say.
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  Speaker 2: The place they're meeting is at Weehawken. There's a ledge
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  Speaker 2: by the Hudson River.
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  Speaker 3: Nice set piece, right, very John WICKI.
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  Speaker 1: This has been a scenic, overlooked dueling brown for a while.
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  Speaker 1: And this is a bit larger than life. It's very strange.
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  Speaker 1: This was also the site where Hamilton's son died in
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  Speaker 1: a duel.
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  Speaker 3: How about that.
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  Speaker 2: So both of these men, they're road by four men
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  Speaker 2: members of their entourage. You don't want to tire out
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  Speaker 2: your own now, you just got to hold up that
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  Speaker 2: pistol to New Jersey and they arrived. Burr actually arrived
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  Speaker 2: first at we Hawking around six an hour and a
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  Speaker 2: half of rowan there's a lot of upper body workout.
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  Speaker 2: Hamilton was fashionably late around thirty minutes later. And then
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  Speaker 2: both men were accompanied by their which referred to often
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  Speaker 2: as their seconds. So I guess second in command, their assistant,
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  Speaker 2: their aide de camp.
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  Speaker 3: None of vallet.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's more of like a you know, a what's
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  Speaker 2: the word kind of like it's your wingman. It's a wingman,
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  Speaker 2: but it's someone that would have probably done like like
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  Speaker 2: like a like an aid.
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  Speaker 3: A political aid perhaps, Oh yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Often sometimes a family member, right, that's right, a close
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  Speaker 1: content on to be sure. And these these folks are
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  Speaker 1: there to be witnesses, like how you have to have
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  Speaker 1: a witness also signed for some contra legal documents. These
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  Speaker 1: are two people who each have a horse in the race, right,
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  Speaker 1: because they have chosen to second one of the duellists,
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  Speaker 1: And they are saying they're going to be the people
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  Speaker 1: who say whether or not this was conducted according to
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  Speaker 1: the rules.
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  Speaker 3: Oh so, maybe I'm misunderstanding, because it does.
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  Speaker 2: It does seem like these two men were kind of
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  Speaker 2: political figures in their own right. Yes, is the second
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  Speaker 2: just referring specifically to the parlance of dueling. This is
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  Speaker 2: not necessarily like this was there, you know, someone that
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  Speaker 2: was on their staff. These were just pit people that
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  Speaker 2: they each chose to accompany them, you know, for the
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  Speaker 2: purposes of fulfilling the uh I guess the rules of
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  Speaker 2: the duel, the.
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  Speaker 1: Du rules, Yeah, Hamilton. Hamilton's guy is Nathan aka Dirty
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Nate Pendleton. He is a revolutionary war veteran and Georgia
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  Speaker 1: District Court judge. By the way, I'm just making up
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  Speaker 1: all these street names. It's crazy. You guys are letting
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  Speaker 1: me get away. I don't know, dirty Nate.
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  Speaker 3: Where are we to say?
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  Speaker 2: Burr, on the other hand, was accompanied by William P.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Van Ness aka the Lockness Monster, a New York City
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  Speaker 2: federal judge, adding to that Hamilton also had one doctor,
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  Speaker 2: David Hassak, which is the only way to say that,
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  Speaker 2: who was a professor of medicine and botany at Columbia
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  Speaker 2: Columbia College at the time, now of course, known as
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  Speaker 2: Columbia University.
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  Speaker 1: He also did hair and birthday parties, so yeah, light.
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  Speaker 3: Of hand expert and balloon animals.
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  Speaker 1: This guy is important because you want to have a
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  Speaker 1: doctor on site. Sure, duels might not always be fatal.
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  Speaker 1: They can be to the death, but they can also
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  Speaker 1: be to first blood. They can be to the one
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  Speaker 1: party yielding like I yield, or you know, I am
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: sorry I said that you smell weird. You know, I'm
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  Speaker 1: sorry I said that your spouse looks like an otter.
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  Speaker 4: That's where I will never inform other people that you
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  Speaker 4: don't wash your butt.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, nobody needs to know that could you.
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  Speaker 2: You know, we see sometimes in situations of fights to
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  Speaker 2: the death or duels as far back as you know,
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  Speaker 2: medieval times, you could put forth a champion, yes, you know,
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  Speaker 2: on your behalf.
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  Speaker 1: It was also considered not necessarily the honorable things at
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  Speaker 1: this point. Yeah, so what could happen in a duel
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  Speaker 1: that reaches the point of actually firing or we're stabbing
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  Speaker 1: at each other, is someone draws first blood and they're like,
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  Speaker 1: do you yield? And then if they yield, then the
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: doctor comes by and it's like, hey, great job on.
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  Speaker 1: Not everybody died immediately. Let's see if we can save
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  Speaker 1: your life long enough for that hour and a half
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  Speaker 1: row back to.
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  Speaker 3: The city and now I'll go.
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: And this is the origin of Dave and Busters. They
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  Speaker 1: basically randomized, to the best of their ability who gets
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  Speaker 1: to go on which side, you know, like in a
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  Speaker 1: like in a battle wrap, you flip the coid and
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  Speaker 1: you call heads or tails. So yeah, that's what they
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  Speaker 1: do to pick the side of the ledge they're going
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  Speaker 1: to each be stationed.
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  Speaker 3: Pretty sure. I mentioned this as well in the Lincoln episode.
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  Speaker 2: But I'm a big fan of the John Quick movies,
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: and in the last one of the most recent one mean,
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: it's obviously franchised city. They're probably gonna keep making them.
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  Speaker 2: But there's a duel that takes place at the Sacrique
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  Speaker 2: in the Marmonto district of Paris.
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  Speaker 1: Yea.
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  Speaker 2: And in order and before that, they have this whole
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  Speaker 2: ritualized kind of like drawing of the like these tarot
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: cards to determine like what weapons they're gonna use all
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: of that. This is sort of a last grandiose version
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  Speaker 2: of that, you know, like the but I like the
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  Speaker 2: pomp and circumstance of this dual stuff.
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  Speaker 1: Who doesn't love a little pomp, you know what I mean?
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  Speaker 1: There are worse ways to go, which might sound a
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: little nihilistic it it does, it does, it's but it's
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: nihilistic optimism. So they've got this, They've got this whole tour.
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  Speaker 1: We've got our stage set, we've got our cast here
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  Speaker 1: on this secluded ledge, we've got our sides, and you know,
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  Speaker 1: at this point, Hamilton does have a storied military and
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  Speaker 1: political career. He's a heck of a prolific writer, and
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  Speaker 1: he had been pretty dope in the Continental Army. He
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  Speaker 1: was George Washington's most trusted boy during the war. But
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  Speaker 1: he probably hadn't actually shot a firearm in a minute
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  Speaker 1: since the revolution. And that's not like riding a bike.
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  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, But isn't it like riding a bike?
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: You say, no, okay, yeah, it does require muscle memory
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  Speaker 2: and like a strength event, you know, just to like
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  Speaker 2: you know, take the kickback and all of that.
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  Speaker 1: Well, and you want to continually practice, that's right, right,
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  Speaker 1: to keep keep your dead eye status.
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: The skills can can achrophy over time.
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  Speaker 1: And Burr. We don't know whether Burr had how active
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: he had been with firearm maintenance and practice after the
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: but there was some evidence that he had been practicing
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  Speaker 1: with pistols with firearms at his crib out in Richmond
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  Speaker 1: Hill for a while, because as soon as it seems
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  Speaker 1: as though as soon as they agreed to the duel,
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: Burr was going out on a non infrequent basis and
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: just you know, doing the doing in the range, doing
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: the equivalent of knocking over cans.
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  Speaker 3: That's right.
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  Speaker 2: So I mean, I'm sure we're gonna get into this, Ben. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I don't really know. But like if you kill somebody
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  Speaker 2: in a duel, are you then a murderer?
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: It depends, Okay, it depends on the okay, well in
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the eyes of God. Also, the next chapter in the story, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: we know and I know it is actually you know what,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: I bet Alex does too. It Hamilton doesn't get to
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: in the weeds on this, but we're gonna give you
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: the actual We're gonna give you the actual story. Oh,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: the Hamilton the musical.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Oh sorry, I thought, but Hamilton himself, as I didn't
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: get too into the weeds on practice.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Marksman absolutely not, and he needed spectacles. So Hi're standing there,
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  Speaker 1: They're facing each other because they had no conflict resolution skills.
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  Speaker 1: Hamilton's aiming, and he's like, psych, can I take a
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: second and put on my glasses? Dog? And then and
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: then uh, Burr is like, I don't care man, I
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: hate you. Do whatever you want. And then Hamilton apparently
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Burr didn't know this. And there's a huge part of
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: the Hamilton Musical, So spoilers, folks, three to one spoiler alert.
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: Hamilton has already told his close friends, including his second
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: and he's already written about this in letters. He says, look,
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  Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw away my shot. That's why it's that's
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: why there's such a big deal about. In the beginning
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: of the musical, he says, I'm gonna shoot wide of Burr.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: I think duals suck. I think they're cruel.
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but I gotta say, and it's been batting.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Around in my head the whole time. Yeah, why did
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  Speaker 2: he agree to it? It seems like such a boneheaded move,
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: such a roll of the dice for someone who's such
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: a you know, calculated political thinker, like you know, it
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: is an antiquated kind of problem conflict resolution scenario, and
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: it is of course pretty much illegal, despite them finding
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: these little loopholes. I would just think that, you know,
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Hamilton was on top. Burr was kind of like this
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: little pisshand at this point, who everyone was kind of
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  Speaker 2: just ready to be rid of. Why would Hamilton put
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: himself in this situation?
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: It was wild man, it was before Twitter.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I guess it's just so yeah, he's already decided he's
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: going to do this.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: He does the thing like you said, puts away his spectacles.
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: And again there is also this is like a you know,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: who shot Hans shot first, right, A lot of debate
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: as to who shot first, But Hamilton did miss. Burr,
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: on the other hand, did not. He hit him in
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: the abdomen right above his hip. How old are these
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: fellows at this point? They are both sixteen? But really,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: but really, how old are they at this point? They
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: are both he got me?
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: What are they max?
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: They're fourteen? No, they're they're about They're pretty close in age. Actually, Hamilton,
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: I think at this point is I want to say
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: he's almost fifty.
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: He's like forty seven. Forty seven is what the interwebs say.
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: So it does make sense.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: Not quite fifties.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, lyrically young and spry.
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: But still even if that, you know how medicine was
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: and those who didn't live as long you get hit
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: in the hit man, that's that's not good, even if
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: you're not like super old.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know. To be fair, the musical is
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: supposed to lionize our buddy Hamilton, so they don't mention
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: in the musical that it's not clear if he actually
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: missed on purpose to just prove his point like a
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: little suck boom, I'm class, or if he was totally
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: gonna kill Burr. Got shot first and that's that impact.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: Through his shot for it, So I say hip, it
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: was more above the hip, but it did fracture a rib,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: and it's absolutely ripped through his diaphragm, liver and then
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: lodged in his spine. I mean, they can't do spinal surgery,
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: you know, one hundred percent with one hundred percent precision,
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: now right, you know this is an absolute death blow.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: And he was realistic. He pretty much said, look, I'm
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: not gonna make it. I'm a dead man walking. So
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: they roll him back to Manhattan. He survives, He survives,
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: the first day. He passes away after thirty one hours
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: of being shot. He is lucky enough to be surrounded
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: by his family, which doesn't happen for everybody then or now.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: And he passes away on July twelfth, eighteen oh four.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: There's this huge outpouring of grief. His wife, Eliza is inconsolable,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: and they have been through a lot, including infidelity, political struggles.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: They lost the child just three years earlier. And Burr
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: is a cautionary tale about dueling. Oh yeah, the legal
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: department wants just to tell you, don't duel.
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, don't duel. Well, you know it was
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: his son died in a duel, right.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, three years before.
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: I guess that's my point though, It's like knowing that,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: why would he not only agree to it. You think
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: he could have said no on the grounds of humanitarian reasons,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: like my lost a son, this is a barbaric practice. Instead,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: it seems like he did it to try to make
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: a point, but the other guy didn't get the memo
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: and he got blasted.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: Literally.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: It just seems really shortsighted and dumb. But of course
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Hamilton emerges from this for all the reasons that you
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: said as this martyr. You know, lionis is the word
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: you used. I think that's what the They wrote a
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: damn musical, I mean many years later. But the story,
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: you know, persevered, and you know, while Burr thought he
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: was going to come off looking like the big big
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: man on campus.
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: Here, Oh he's the heel. He's cancelled.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: He's the quizz basically, and he hoped to Burr had said, Okay,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: I am going to show that I am upstanding, I
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: am gambling again, and I duel Hamilton honorably. I will
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: restore my reputation. My political career shall be resurrected. He
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: was wrong on both counts. He was super duper wrong.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: The authorities issue these arrest warrants for Burr, and everybody
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: in New York is saying this guy is a murderer,
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: and they're like, well, you know, we were all soldiers
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: at some point we did some killer. He's like, no,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: but he's one of the bad murderers, and so Burr
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: has to high tail it to Philadelphia where he invents
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: cream cheese.
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: Man, your misinformation in this episode is admirable. We're just
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: weaving it in, you're dropping it in. I love it. Yeah,
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: he was.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: It's true that he did have to go on the lamb.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: He did not invent cream cheese, but he did have
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: to go to Philly. Yeah, it's true. And cream cheese
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: is objectively good.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: It is great. Like it. I like it as an ingredient.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: It's wonderful as an ingredient. But as you get older,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: you know what you start to favor just the plane plane,
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: the plain bagel playing cream cheese a bit. I like
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: a plain cream cheese on everything bagel. I like that too.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: I extremes, yeah, nothing and everything. When we were quite
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: philosophical with our bagels. Also, I tried some everything bagel
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: flavored potato chips.
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, excellent. Really well, I'll tell you this.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Let me before.
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: There is a Trader Joe's Everything Bagel seasoning that you
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: can that is good?
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Okay, but I bought the pre made everything bagel chips
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: to Trader Joe's. They insist upon themselves.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: Okay, I can see that, you know.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: I bet they'd be good with a smoked salmon dip. Okay, yeah, sure, okay,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: So so we have uh there we go, there we go.
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: I've got a like a fourteen pound can of chickpeas
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: I bought during the pandemic. Did I tell you about this?
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: They never go bad. I thought there was a regular
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: size can when I ordered them. But yeah, I have
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: prepper chickpeas. So I need to make some hummus. All right,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: I'll bring some in for the class please. So anyway,
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: Aaron Burr is now a pariah, but he does not die.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: He doesn't pass away. These we said what their late forties.
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: He doesn't pass away until he's like eighty years old.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: So his life is just barely halfway through.
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's wild.
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: And his other adventures that his other adventures that the
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Hamilton Musical won't tell you are pretty nuts. As our
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: research associate for this episode, mister Max Williams puts.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: It, didn't he light off for the territories? Kind of
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: did he let out for the territories? I love that phrase.
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: He leaves the west. He leaves for the West ignomoniously
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: in eighteen oh five, and historians still aren't sure why
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: he was headed that way. People who didn't like him said,
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: we all know this snaky eel of a man, snake anony.
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: He wants to he wants to steal, yeah, right, he
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: wants to steal the Louisiana territory parts of it, along
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: with Spanish lands. We all know that Burr is a jerk.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: He's going to try to make his own country. And
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: because this guy's reputation was so bad, people would hear
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: that and they would go, yeah, I don't you know,
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I don't have proof, but that guy is kind of a.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: I know, he seems he seems really sketch, and he
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: you know, he does make contact with some British officials,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: ministers from Spain, and even some revolutionary fighters you know,
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: from from Mexico. But a lot of these folks are
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: actually accused of colluding with him to for this this
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: imagined or real purpose, the ide of starting his own nation.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Or starting or launching a coup. And that sounds crazy
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: because if you.
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: Have ever against Washington against yeah, if you have ever
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: been to Washington, d C.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Caveat not talking about January sixth, but on any other
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: day of the year, if you've been to Washington, d C.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: You know, security is a little tighty. You're right. So
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: it might sound strange, super villainy, uh, the stuff of
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: legend or fiction to talk about a coup in Washington,
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: d C. Now, But the United States was much younger,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: much less secure. Oh yeah, so this is a viable, actionable.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: Threat, decent enough militia at your back, you know, could
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: be done, could be.
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: Done, And a lot of coups happened with former military officers.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: And you know this people. People were aware at the
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: very least of some of these meetings that he was taking,
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: and the district attorney for Kentucky actually tattled on him
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: to Jefferson. So James Wilkinson, who was one of Burr's
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: co conspirators in this act activity, I guess, produced a
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: letter that accused Burr of the worst accusation that any
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: patriots you know, could be accused of treason, and Jefferson
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: that immediately orders his former VP to be taken in arrested.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, is it dead or alive. It's got to be alive.
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: They want him alive.
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, it's it's arrested so that he can stand trial.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: That's the idea.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: But this is not necessarily stand trial for the murder
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: of Hamilton.
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: This is for treason, This is for colluding with these.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: He never actually got tried for Hamilton's because that.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: Was New York that wanted to try for Hamilton.
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah, this is like the federal government is coming out.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: But is it true though? Was he actually doing this stuff?
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: It seems like a little bit trumped up.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: I mean, we don't know.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: We don't know. Still remains unclear. There's not a primary
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: source at this point from my research, there's not a
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: primary source at this point where you have like a
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: correspondence from a British official or Free to do It,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: the Spanish minister saying, you know, like poor Cepuesto.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: Or whatever, he was trying to do something. We just
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: don't there's just not enough proof to know exactly what
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: he was doing. And it was also very unsuccessful. It
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: could well have been just trying to make investments.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: You know, in another part of the country, or set
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: up a new life for himself not having to come.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: Back to Ye.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: It was also a little finger character those you know.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: So he's like chaos, he's a letter and all that well.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: And I want to do a little post mortem about
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: him and his character at the end here. But he
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: is put on trial, yes, and he is acquitted. A
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall acquitted him, saying there
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: was a lack of evidence to fully you know, bring
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: him up on these charges, but that he had in
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: some form of fashion committee speak, but that he didn't
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: actually take any action against the US government.
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: So usually you think, well, actually that's not the case.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Usually sometimes just being tried is enough to torpedo your
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: reputation and your career, unless you're a certain former president,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: which seems to not really take.
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll see how it goes. But absolutely there are
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: some things that just going to trial for them, even
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: if you are acquitted, it's gonna it's gonna ruin your life,
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, Like, oh, I went
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: to trial for driving puffins extinct. I didn't do I mean,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: I didn't get convicted.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: You're probably not going to be elected the head of
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: the WWF or WWE World Wildlife Federation. Yeah yeah, wait
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: there's the other there or two, the one with the
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: pandam yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Oh I'm thinking world What am I thinking of? Well,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the w w Yeah, you're right, you're right, World Wildlife Foundation.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: There's another thing too. But but you know, the question
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: will always be in this weird comparison. You'll say, I
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: wasn't convicted of killing all the puffins, and in any
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: time you're not in the room, people will go just
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: between us, how many how many puffins did he kill?
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Though?
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Exactly like he just got kicked.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Where there's smoke, there's fire, right right, right right, And
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: so this is a death, This is a political death
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: before a physical death for.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Aaron Burr, he's already been absolutely dragged through the mud.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: He was unpopular before the duel even took place. Now
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: he's been accused herber stands, I mean guilty of whether
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: it's a murder or not, killing a very popular political
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: figure and a former close friend, which means that this
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: guy is not trustworthy.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: That's right. Look how he treats his friends. He also
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: he goes around the world, around Europe, attempting to hang
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: his shingle. Attempting to recover some modicum of success is
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: how you will see it put often in airon biographies.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: He leaves the US eighteen oh eight, the country that
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: he helped create, and he travels to England. Ooh his
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: at this time, if you're American, and he says, maybe
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: the English will support me, bankroll a Mexican revolution. British
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: officials say, oh, you know, what'd be great, get out,
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: and so he flees. Not interested, right, he flees to France.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: He's like Napoleon, bro it's me the a bomb, we
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: do big stuff. And Napoleon goes.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: No, Yeah, he's a toxic person at this point. Nobody
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: wants to touch him, nobody wants to even be associated
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: with him.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: He is basically exiled. I mean, he's an untouchable, right.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: And he's broke, so he can't go back to the
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: United States. He has to wait around in France for
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: a while. And it's not till eighteen eleven of friendship
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: is on the way back to the United States and
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: he's able basically to beggar rived exactly.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know that probably didn't come easy either,
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: you know, nobody even wanted him as a passenger on
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: their freighter. So back home he changes his name sure
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: to Edwards, like Timothy Edwards.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly all that.
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: In eighteen thirty three, he does marry an Eliza, which
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: it wasn't Eliza Hamilton's wife. Yeah, but weird unrelated, but
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: just she is wealthy, she is a socialite.
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: Their marriage doesn't last long because he burns through her
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: entire state. He waste all her money, He's broke again.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: He dies in debt on September fourteenth, eighteen thirty six,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: the same day his wife's divorce paperwork comes through.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: You know, I felt like, and I've said it a
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: couple of times that, like leading up to the duel
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: and all of that, he didn't seem like just absolute
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: villain material, you know. I mean everybody in politics has
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: their double dealings and slimy.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Behavior, played the saxophone, that's true. Barack Obama had a
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: tan suit one time.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: I just mean, nobody, and especially in this area era,
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: I was beyond reproach, you know, like people were doing
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: backstabby kind of stuff all the time constantly. This dude
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: just sort of got that label sort of like it's
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: just absolutely emblazoned on his reputation.
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: But he wasn't the only one. But then this last chapter.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Of his life, the idea of like being a bit
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: of a he sort of became the villain that everyone
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: said he was the whole time.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: He was a broken man. Yeah, and it's not a
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: fate that you want to wish on people. It's clearly possible.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, history hinges on such tiny things. It's clearly
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: possible that had just a few other variables changed, he
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: would have been the border or he would have maybe
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: have led a more successful political career.
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: I mean, but to jump in here, and I think
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: this is an important thing. Election of eighteen hundred, I mean,
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: Hamilton basically said, I hate Thomas Jefferson. This guy's awful,
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: this guy's terrible. You need to vote for him instead
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: of Aaron Burr. Yes, I think there's I don't know
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: about Burr. I think just the awful things he did
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: didn't become well known until he did enough awful things.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, but then also you could I mean, when
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: you hold an objective mirror of retrospect up to the
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: founding dudes, you're gonna be hard pressed to find a
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: paragon of nobility amid any of them.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: I think that's what I was getting at, And I'm
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: not getting this guy a pass. He obviously sucked, but
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: oh yeah, he's not good, not a good dude. But
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: like a lot of these other drunk yeah, well, we
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: never really talked about him getting drunk. Oh well, everybody
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: was drunk, okay at that point, and he.
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: Was very drunk when I think for a lot of
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: these things.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was kind of doing a Giuliani. Okay. Now,
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: guys like I just it just it's heartbreaking though, because
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: you don't you don't want to think about someone dying
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: or even having to live in such circumstances. And he also,
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: while he himself was seen as perhaps a traitor to
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: his friends in his political colleagues, he again toward the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: end of his life he was suspected of being treason is,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: but he was never proven to be a trader. He
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: just certainly hung out with people who later became traders.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: And that's where we sew it up. What about our
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: buddy James Wilkinson, co conspirator, the guy that also we willie.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: He then like backstabbed Burr right by producing that letter
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: that led to his trial for treason. He also had
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: a bit of a circuitous path to trade her drum.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: He won election and then used to leave after his term.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: There's a great quote from an article from Team Mighty
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: over at We Are the Mighty dot com about Wilkinson
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: in this situation. It says, quote, Wilkinson was one of
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: the most trusted soldiers in the US Army history, serving
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: in both the Revolutionary War and the War of eighteen twelve.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: He took on the role of governor of the newly
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: acquired Louisiana Territory and became one of the army's most
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: senior officers. There were many problems with Wilkinson's service, but
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: the foremost among them was that he had been spying
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: for the Spanish most of the time.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Whoops, not all of the time, but most of the time.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: So that's treason too, yes, talking about the pot calling
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: the kettle black.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: When he did again turn Burr in for a treason.
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: And then he almost gets caught up in this a
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: bomb nonsense. Aaron Burr's treeson trial. And so here's what
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: Wilkinson does when he finds out that he might be
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: revealed as a treasonist. Dude, a rude due himself, as
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: our friends of ridiculous crime would say, Wilkinson, we Willie
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: places the entirety of New Orleans under martial law and
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: locks up anyone who might be able to prove his involvement.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: He never gets caught during his life. He does get
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: away clean. But his papers, his correspondencies, are discovered in
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: eighteen fifty four, and the stuff that's in them led
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt to say, in an old roy history, there's
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: no more despicable capacter.
• 36:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah what what did he say?
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: We don't know what does well?
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: But again, I mean putting a whole city under martial
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: law just a savior butt, But that's the behavior of
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: a very powerful and desperate man. We mentioned Benedict Arnold,
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: which is I don't think eggs Benedict are named after
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Benedict Arnold's I would like to think not that would
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: really turn me on eggs Benedict, because I like ex Benedict.
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: And BENEDICTO. Yeah, if you've seen things like turn right.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: He is most famous for, you know, stepping on the
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: wrong side of the US government. He was raised in
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: a pretty good family in Norwich, Connecticut. He was originally
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: going to be a pharmacy guy. He apprenticed with an apothecary.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: He joined the militia During the French and Indian War,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: he became a successful private trader. The Revolutionary War breaks out,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: he joins a continental army and during the war. In
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: his time as a military dude, he seems brave. He's skilled,
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: He's a good leader. He does. He's got a couple
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: of real hero moments. He helps capture Fort Ticonderoga. In
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: seventy five, he takes part in an unsuccessful attack on Quebec,
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: the British part of it.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Much like our boy aarn burd Wait. Isn't that where
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: they Maybe that's whe they met each other? Was during
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: that that attack on Quebec the invasion member of the
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: unsuccessful invasion of Canada.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: This this invasion gives uh Benedict Arnold the promotion he's
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: aiming for too. He becomes a brigadier general.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: Interesting, I mean, but you know it also benefited benefited burr.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: By the way, I just googled, is eggs Benedict named
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: after Benedict Arnold? It is not, but the second most
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: popular googles was is egg Benedict named after Benedict cumberbatche
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: Oh wow, who is like, you know, an actor.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Reading this nourll of food history. I remember reading this,
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: but I can't. I can't remember how it got the
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: name was it?
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Was it named for place, it was a person. It
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: does appear that it was. Let's see, uh, miss Legrand
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: Benedict grew bored of the menu at the particular place
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: and complained about its lack of variety and requested something
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: new to be made. Chef Ranhoffer spontaneously created the now
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: famous Eggs Benedict dish and named it after her. And
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: this would have been in uh, let's see the Del
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: mom Ah like state.
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: Delmonico's think, yeah, because that was the origin point for
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: so many amazing recipes.
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: That's right. Eighteen.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: You can look at if you ever want to have fun, folks,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: you can look at the old Delmonico menu. You will
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: be shocked by the prices and there, I say, you
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: might be shocked by some of the variety. They've got
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: some weird stuff on roast beast. Yeah. Our buddy Benny
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: does some other cool stuff. During the war, he gets
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: the support of George Washington. He distinguishes himself in multiple campaigns,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: but it's the military. People are also gunning for the
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: same promotion you want. Arnold has enemies within the military,
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: and he's mad. He's spitting mad. In seventeen seventy seven,
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: a group of lower ranking dudes get promoted ahead of him.
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: They got a leap frog. He's thinking, I'm supposed to
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: be next in line. He marries a second time. He's
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: living it up in Philly, cream cheese every day, everything, bagel.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: He racks up a lot of debt, and he's got
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: these money problems, and he's got this personal resentment that
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: he was not promoted, and he's like, I did my
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: level best, you know, why are these guys getting favors
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: over me?
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: And that's when he turns to the dark time.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: That's when he turns to the Sith Lord stuff. That
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: probably was the deciding factor, the money problems and the resentment,
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: and no one finds out for a second. Seventeen eighty,
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: Arnold takes over West Point, and this is before it's
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the home of the US Military Academy.
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: It's just it's a base. Yeah, yeah for it exactly.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: He contacts Sir Henry Clinton, the head of the British Forces,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: and just says Hey, I got an idea. How about
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: I just give you the fort and my men?
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: And the guy goes what.
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: Presumably for.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: What's the quid pro quote here, Ben, it's not really
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: stated clearly.
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah. He meets with a British major, John Andre on
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: September twenty one of that same year, seventeen eighty, and
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: they crack a deal and he says, you, dirty American,
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: I will give you a large sum of money. Okay,
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: got it, and I would also promote you in the
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: British Army. So you could have that promotion.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: He'll never be accepted. What is he going to do
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: a fake British accent? They'll see right through.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: It, they might. But well, actually they probably sounded very
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: similar to these guys.
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: Oh that's a good point at that time. Yeah, you're earlier.
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: That's a really good point.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: But he would definitely be marked as a trader. The
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: thing about rats is that would no one trust them. Yeah,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: so he was still going to get a lot of money,
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: solve his money problems, get promoted to the British Army ostensibly. However,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: he gets found out and his buddy, the point of
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: contact who can make this treason possible and worth it,
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Andrey gets captured, Andre is murdered. Ben addict Arnold flees
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: to the enemy side. Help me, help me, help me.
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: Remember we had a thing, we had a deal. We're buddies.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Wait for me. And then they give him some British
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: troops and he commands them in Virginia in Connecticut. That's
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: got to be a trip. If you're on the American
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: side of it, you're like, hang on a second, Yeah,
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I know that asshole. Yeah, that's the moment they have.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: And eventually he survives.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: He does move to England, but he never gets all
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: of the accolades and you know, wealth and riches that
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: were promised him by the British. Once again, the story
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: of a former great American hero and patriot who died
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: like maybe not a pauper, but you know, definitely not
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: with reverence and respect and admiration, mainly in you know,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: obscurity on June fourteenth, eighteen oh one.
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: And lest we had done a down. Note. The Delmonico
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: Restaurant in New York is also responsible for baked Alaska
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: and Lobster Newburgh. I don't know, lobster Newburg got a
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: very distinct smell. I've cooked at home. It's it's kind
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: of a pain because you have to use brandy in
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: the recipe.
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: I like brandy and like a lobster bisk you know again,
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: like a sherry or sherry.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess no, I mean you can tell. I
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: think we don't. I don't. I don't think either of
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: us really cook a ton with alcohol outside of like
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: some wine and like a beef shoe or something.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Or like a little white wine and like a pasta
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: of some kind of Oh that's what.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I like. I like seafood pasta kind of thing.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: Definitely, yes, exactly Like I like doing shrimp and rice too,
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: with dice roasted red peppers, and then you put a
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: little I actually like to cook the rice with half
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: wine and half chicken broth instead of water.
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I use chicken broth just but I've never put wine in.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: It's really nice. It's also what you would do for
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: like a pay. I guess that's what we got. We've
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: got a story of one of America's biggest traders and
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: a bunch of other little side players and Hamilton and
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: all of the things.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: And what a wild ride.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: We know.
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: We made this a two part episode, folks. That's because
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: there's so much stuff. We wanted to preemptive. Yeah, preemptive
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: on purpose. And we want to thank the following people
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: so much for making the show possible. First off, you
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: ridiculous historians, thanks for tuning in. Second well, first a,
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: our super producer and research associate for this series, mister
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Max Williams. Who else? Who else?
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Oh? You know, all the heads.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: Jonathan Strickland, the quizter, our personal Aaron Burr, Benedict Arnold
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: and the other guy what was his name, the most
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: despicable one, James Wilkinson.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: That's it, Wilkinson. You.
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: I also want to be fair and say like it was.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: It was a tremendous pleasure to hang out with Jonathan
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: a little bit in Vegas.
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, he almost got assassinated by seafood tower. He was
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: sitting next to him. Yes, this is a true story.
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: He has a shellfish justly allergic to shellfish. Christopher Oscio
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: is here in spirit, Heves, Jeff Coke, Alex Williams, who
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: composed our theme.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: Alex.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: I don't know your last name, but who's visiting us
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: in the studio Alex circa nineteen hundred.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: There we go. I love it.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you go with that one, Alex. You want another
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: one that's pretty good.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: That's pretty good Alex circa nineteen, that has a pretty
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: good history nickname.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: Well, we won't expose real birthday. Okay, that's unfair, but
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: but yes and no. Of course, of course, of course,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: thanks to you man.
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: He was well Ben, I'll see you next time, folks.
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.