Latest / MIDDLE GROUND - Real Conversations on Faith, Identity & Becoming — Through Brynne's LDS Lens of Curiosity, Love and Doubt / Paige Aardema - The LDS Plan of Salvation Explained: Love, Agency, Eternal Families & What Happens After Death
Transcript
- Brynne Erickson (00:28) Paige Ardima, I am thrilled to have you here with me tonight. How are you feeling? Paige Aardema (00:35) I'm good, I'm stuck to beer. Brynne Erickson (00:37) Yeah, we're going to be talking about the plan of salvation, which in a nutshell is the LDS theology of answering all the big questions. Where we came from, why we're here, and where are we going? And I think most people in this world probably ponder one or all of those questions at some point in their life, don't you think? Paige Aardema (01:00) Yeah, absolutely. Brynne Erickson (01:01) And this has kind of been something I've grappled with as my family circumstances have evolved, as I'm sure not only many Latter-day Saints, but other people of religion, as they see family members come and go within religion. And in a lot of theologies, there's consequences to that, right? And, ⁓ I had invited Paige, I'm going to give you some backstory of why I have this awesome woman with me tonight. So I oversee a group of girls within our ward, which is essentially our congregation. And in the 16 to 18 year old group, none of our girls could teach the lesson a couple of Sundays ago. And Paige's name came to my mind. And so we asked Paige to come and give the lesson. I honestly didn't even know what the lesson was that day. And as she was giving this beautiful lesson. didn't get to stay the whole time as I was watching my baby and he was being a baby. So we had to go out into the hallway and I came back in at the very end and she had taken all the parts of the plan of salvation and it had spelled out the word love on the board. And I was like, what? I've never seen that before. And I find that so intriguing. And I was actually contemplating having this discussion on my own. But after that lesson, I was very curious about what Paige had taught these girls. And it seemed appropriate to collaborate with her on this topic. So that is why I have Paige with me tonight. ⁓ I don't have any questions planned. She's essentially going to be teaching me. And we're going to go back and forth and sharing our perspective and answering questions and asking questions. And I'm really excited to see where this takes us. So thanks again, Paige, for being here. And I'm really excited. You ready? Paige Aardema (02:51) Yeah, I actually, before we jump into it, it's actually funny. It's cool to see, like, you know, always want to be inspired and you want to have the spirit involved as much as possible, specifically when you're planning to teach people at church or, you know, have conversations with people who, you know, you're trying to teach them. And the lesson that you actually gave me, or the Come Follow Me lesson for that week was... Brynne Erickson (02:52) All right. Paige Aardema (03:19) ⁓ you know at Sydney Rigdon and Joseph Smith they're translating parts of the Bible and they have a question come up about life after death and I sat there and I was like why am I supposed to be teaching like 16 year old girls about death like I don't want to do that and so you know I was just sitting there thinking well what can I pull from this what could I you know talk about and I had been at a funeral early that week and the funeral primarily focused on Brynne Erickson (03:34) I'm ⁓ you Paige Aardema (03:46) you know, what we believe and what brings us comfort when we're talking about family members who have passed away or we're talking about people that we love that have passed on. And it really brought me back to the plan of salvation. And I thought, what an important thing to teach girls ⁓ and young people in the church or even young people everywhere about their purpose and why they're here and what that means. ⁓ And seriously, like the plan of salvation. I went on, I served my mission. I grew up in the church. I served a mission. I'm continuing into adulthood, but I've never found anything more grounding and important than the plan of salvation. ⁓ When I was on my mission and those three questions that you brought up, those were things that I saw every single day and everybody that we talked with. was, I served in Houston. So Houston, Texas. And you know, a lot of people, Brynne Erickson (04:35) Where did you serve, Paige? OK. Paige Aardema (04:44) I think everybody questions, what am I even doing here? I think that question comes up in, you know, when you're going into school, when you're going into college, when you're being an adult, when you're a mom, when you're a brand new mom, when you're struggling at work, like everybody's wondering, what am I doing here? And so the plan answers that question. At times when people have passed on, people wonder, where am I going? And I really think the deep thinkers like to think about where did I come from, you know? Brynne Erickson (05:13) Mm-hmm. Paige Aardema (05:13) I haven't met a lot of people who think about that, but it's a big question. And that's the plan of salvation. answers all three of those. But it also answers, and this is something I've learned as I've gotten older, it answers bigger questions than that. when I got home from my mission, I went into college and I pursued my degree. And my area of study kind of put me in an environment. Brynne Erickson (05:17) Yeah. Paige Aardema (05:38) that I wasn't super familiar with. Like I said, I served my mission in Houston. I was in the Bible Belt. Like I could walk into Walmart and I could say to people, hey, do you want to pray? And they'd be like, yeah, let's pray, you know? And so talking about God and talking about purpose and talking about beliefs, wasn't that hard. It wasn't that hard to bring up because everybody had some sort of Christian root in them, you know? Brynne Erickson (05:46) Yeah. I love that, yes. Yeah. Paige Aardema (06:04) But when was in college, I found myself in an environment where nobody even believed in a God. And I found myself as one of the only Christians who believed in a savior and believed in the gospel. And so it was kind of like my second mission, honestly. Like I wasn't actively teaching people, but I was actively learning from people. And I'm not saying it shook my faith, but it helped me. It pulled me back and made me put my beliefs under a microscope. And... ⁓ like it took constant consideration and deliberation for me to stay strong in my faith because here are these people I'm loving and I'm hanging out with and I'm spending every waking hour with them and my belief kind of contradicts some of the things that they believe or some of the ways that they live their life. And so when I was questioning and when I was laying in my bed thinking about how does this work or why do I believe this and this just doesn't even fit in their lifestyle. It was always the plan of salvation that brought me back. the thing that I realized about the plan is it gives you purpose to everything that you do and it gives context to everything that you believe in the church. And so when you asked me to teach and when I decided on the plan of salvation, I wanted to put this to the test. I wanted to test out if there are questions that are asked, can they be answered in the plan and are they always answered in the plan? And so, ⁓ When I taught the girls on Sunday, I asked them, and I'm gonna ask you, do you have any friends or family members that aren't members of the church? And if so, what are your religious conversations like with them? What questions do they have? I mean, I get on Instagram all the time and just bombarded with questions and kind of differing opinions to the church's beliefs. So what are some for you that pop up the most? Brynne Erickson (08:02) Mm-hmm. man. ⁓ a lot of people want to know like the nature of God because I think in the Bible you have different types of a God. have an angry God and you've gotten a loving God and that can throw people through a loop. So the nature of God is one that I have a discussion with ⁓ a lot and, ⁓ Gosh, I think that's actually probably the main one that comes up in one form or another. And is God loving and what does that mean and what could that look like? Paige Aardema (08:49) Yeah, absolutely. That's actually a really good question. That's one I've never really thought of before. ⁓ cause I think when you grow up in the church, you always just have the, like, I am a child of God is in your head all the time. So it's not really something you, you think about. I found it fascinating. Some of the questions the girls came like had brought into the lesson were, ⁓ why is agency important? Like, why is it a huge thing we focus on? ⁓ what makes us different? Brynne Erickson (09:01) Mm-hmm. Hmm. Paige Aardema (09:17) as members of the church, like what is so special about us? ⁓ Or our beliefs, I guess you could say. ⁓ I'm trying to think of another one. One that comes up a lot for me. I have a lot of friends who are part of the LGBTQ community. And so, like, why is it that I'm not allowed to love the way I want to love and progress in your gospel? Like, that's a huge one. That's a big one. That's a hard one, you know? ⁓ So there's tons of these questions and tons of these kind of hard questions, questions of the heart I feel. Like a lot of people are just trying to feel like they belong or feel loved from a religion. And so ⁓ that's why I think the plan of salvation and knowing the plan of salvation helps us understand that and helps us answer all of those questions. So I wrote down your question and I'll come back to it when we go. We'll go through the plan of salvation. Brynne Erickson (09:52) Mm. Yeah. Paige Aardema (10:13) And then I want to come back and see if we can answer that question or see if we can find our belief in there somewhere. Brynne Erickson (10:19) Okay, I love it. Paige Aardema (10:20) So, ⁓ like I said, the verbiage we keep using is the plan of salvation. So what does that even mean? ⁓ A lot of people, know, the plan of salvation is God's plan for us to be, for us to find salvation, for us to have eternal life, for us to return to Him. ⁓ Another one that I would use a ton on my mission was the great plan of happiness. It's God's plan given to His children so that they can be happy. and then they can be eternally happy. ⁓ And so there's a few ways that we talk about it, but it really is just, it lays out where we came from, why we're here and where we're going, like you said earlier. ⁓ And so first we gotta start with where do we come from? We start with what we call the pre-mortal life, so pre-mortal before life. And what I'm going to reference when I'm teaching today or when I'm explaining to you is preach my gospel. think that's a perfect place to start just because you know this is the handbook given to us for us to go out and teach as missionaries and help people understand what we believe so why not pull from there you know. Brynne Erickson (11:28) Yeah, great resource. Paige Aardema (11:30) So, pre-mortal life, God's purpose and plan for us. the first point is we are all spirit children of God. He created us in His own image. Boom! Like, wow! The first bullet point of pre-mortal, I already know who I belong to. I know that somebody loves me. And I know that I'm created in God's image. Like, a great and powerful God wouldn't create something in his image that he was just gonna toss aside or he was just gonna test and leave alone. You know? Something that took delicate care and delicate, you know, attention. And so... right then and there I know that I belong somewhere and I know I belong to God. ⁓ The second one is we lit. Yeah, absolutely. Brynne Erickson (12:15) Hey Paige, can I ask you a question really quick? So I have thought about that word image and I've wondered is it, I wonder if sometimes we focus that it's just like we are human and he is some type of human like with eyes and nose and a mouth. But I also wonder how much of like our being, like our characteristics, our desires are also maybe of God's image. Have you ever thought of that before? Paige Aardema (12:42) Absolutely. do and I think I Don't know when I think of Exactly that I think of the best parts of people You know like there's some people that like take my mom for example. I love my mom so much because she's selfless And she didn't just learn like she did. I don't feel like she just picked that up Randomly because she's so good at it. You know I feel like there's so many Brynne Erickson (12:52) Mm-hmm. Paige Aardema (13:10) aspects of God within us that are the best parts of us. And so I think when we talk about, you know, part of that and being in part of God's image, I think our spiritual gifts are a huge part of Him, a huge part of Him within us, you know. Brynne Erickson (13:14) Mm-hmm. Yeah, do you think God gets angry? Like also experiences the opposite emotions too? Paige Aardema (13:31) I think so. think... Yeah, I mean, there's some parts in the scriptures where you're like, don't think he was very happy with y'all, you know? It's hard. god. Brynne Erickson (13:33) I do too. Yeah. And I don't, yeah, I was going to say, like, obviously when we accredit, man, like massacre or death at the hand of God, that's hard for people to swallow. And I don't know. I have, I have conflicting views on that too. Like I could, could, God can do whatever he wants, whatever they want, but would he actually do that? I don't know. Or is that just how we have chosen to explain? why that specific thing took place. So I do find that interesting, but I do find comfort in knowing that maybe God experiences negative emotions like I do too. Paige Aardema (14:26) For sure. think, I don't want to them off the top of my head and I apologize for that but there are many instances within the scriptures where you can see just the heartbreak that I think God faces seeing, you know, I mean there's a specific one ⁓ in Moses that talks about when he had to flood the earth. Like I don't think God enjoyed that whatsoever and there's even a line where it says he wept because he had to, you know, and so Brynne Erickson (14:40) Yeah. Paige Aardema (14:55) ⁓ But I do want to get back because that's a big question too like that you brought up of Is God a loving God if he can allow all these things to happen? You know so I do I want to circle back to that just in a minute because you know that's a big part of pre-mortal We live with God We're his spirit children, but we're kind of we've kind of maxed out all that we can do there we've progressed as much as we could and so God lays in Brynne Erickson (15:08) Okay, you're good. Yeah, so pre-mortal, before our mortal existence. Paige Aardema (15:25) place a plan for us and he says we're gonna send you down you're gonna choose whatever you want to but I want you to return to me I want you to become like me I want you to try your best and I want you to to choose what you can to return to me but a big aspect of that is we need a savior and because we're gonna come down here we're gonna be faced with agency and Our human cells and our human bodies don't want to good. It wants to choose the opposite of good. And so we're going to sin no matter what. ⁓ And so Jesus Christ is a huge part of that plan and a huge part of God's plan to get us back to Him. ⁓ But one thing before we move on from that is it talks about, it says in pre-mortal life we chose to follow God's plan. This meant coming to earth so we could take the next step in our eternal progression. One thing that I find comforting and it was something that a lot of people found shocking when I would teach them this was they already chose God. You know? Like at some, at one point or another they chose God and so even if you're in the midst of chaos, in the midst of questioning, in a faith crisis, if you feel completely cut off from any sort of higher being, at one point or another you chose God, you know? And so there was something there that you liked, there was something there that made you feel like this was all worth it. I think we all knew it was gonna be hard, we all knew it was gonna be difficult, but there's something in us that chose good and that chose God. And so even if you feel so far away, you still have that one connection, you know, that started it all here. Brynne Erickson (17:16) Yeah, that's beautiful. Paige Aardema (17:18) So we jump in to the creation. The creation is under God's direction. Jesus Christ created the earth. So now we're here. And then God puts two people on the earth. Adam and Eve. He puts the first two people to start this whole process. So it says, and Eve were the first of God's spirit children to come to earth. God created their bodies and placed them in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve transgressed, were cast out of the garden, and were separated from God's presence. This event is called the Fall. After the Fall, Adam and Eve became mortal. As mortals, they were able to learn, progress, and have children. They also experienced sorrow, sin, and death. ⁓ It was kind of funny to talk with other Christians about the Fall. They kind of made it sound like, I don't know, it was kind of looked at as negative. Like, ⁓ whatever Eve, you know, Eve bit the apple and then convinced Adam and how bad? Like, I can't believe she did. Brynne Erickson (18:16) She ruined it. Paige Aardema (18:17) Yeah, she ruined it all. Brynne Erickson (18:19) Yeah. Paige Aardema (18:20) But it's so opposite of that. ⁓ Like, that's the whole thing that kickstarted this plan. If Eve and Adam had never chosen for themselves what they wanted to do, we'd still be up in heaven stuck. ⁓ But there's also a scripture in the Book of Mormon that says, Adam felt that man might be and men are that they might have joy. And so even though there was sin involved and there was a transgression involved, It carved out a place for us to expound our joy and to feel joyful and to have blessings and to progress and to learn. Like I said, we'd already maxed out. We were maxed out on what we could learn. We had to come here and learn for ourselves. Brynne Erickson (19:03) Yeah, right. Yeah, I've thought a lot about Eve because it's so interesting how they had to sin in order for all of the entire rest of the plan to come into place, which I find so interesting. Like, why would God, why would he create something contradictory as a necessity within the plan? And I, this is Brynn speaking. Paige Aardema (19:35) Mm-hmm. Brynne Erickson (19:35) I have actually found great comfort in that. It's almost like he gave us permission. Like, no, you actually are going to sin. Like you kind of have to sin because that's how you're going to learn. And that's how you're going to grow. If you just were came down and you knew what sweet was and what happiness was and joy and comfort, and you, you would never truly grasp it because you never experienced the opposite. Paige Aardema (20:03) Right. Brynne Erickson (20:03) And so it was interesting to realize, actually we're genuinely like supposed to mess up, not to say like, whatever, you know, I can just do whatever and not have consequences. Like there's going to be consequences. So you might as well choose your consequences if you can. ⁓ but I just, love that so much that it was actually essential for them to make that. Paige Aardema (20:23) Absolutely. Brynne Erickson (20:31) contradictory choice and allow us so that we could do the same and also rely on a savior, which is a super beautiful part of the story. Paige Aardema (20:40) Absolutely, and I don't know my brain keeps going back to there was this analogy that ⁓ It when I was in seminary we had You know our teacher was like hey drop draw out a heartbeat like just draw You know the ups and downs and he wanted us to label You know our when the heartbeat went down he wanted us to label the bad things that happened and then when our heartbeat went up He wanted us to write the good things that happened and you're exactly right like We have to have this depth in order to understand the height. And you would never have known that unless you were in the depths. You know, would have never known joy. You would have never known what good is if you didn't know evil. And so, you know, that opposite was a necessity. And Paige speaking, I think Eve knew the whole time. Just gonna be completely honest with you. The girl was smart, okay? Brynne Erickson (21:22) Yeah. The girl is smart. Paige Aardema (21:41) But, but I agree, so then that kind of catches us up to you know they had kids life goes on you can read in the first couple books of the Bible it's pages and pages and pages of genealogy so people are people are being born and life is going on so now now we're here right now we're it's our life on earth which this is for me kind of where we get into what people are going to want to relate to and what people are wanting to find. They want to find purpose. And so giving them this outline of what God's plan is for us here is so important and so relevant. And so it says, God's plan, we needed to come to earth to receive physical bodies, learn and grow. think we overlook ⁓ the need for a body. Like I don't think we really realize how important it is, but it is important because without our body, we were just You're just our spirits and we can't be tried in the same way that we unless we have our physical body It also helps us become like God who has his has a body same with Jesus Christ And then it says on earth we learn to walk by faith However, Heavenly Father has not left us alone. He has provided many gifts and guides to help us return to his presence Which shoots us straight into the Atonement of Jesus Christ the biggest and greatest gift Brynne Erickson (22:37) Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Yep. Paige Aardema (23:06) that God gave to us. ⁓ For people who don't know what the atonement is, it's Jesus Christ's sacrifice for us, both physically and spiritually. ⁓ The best way I like to explain it to people is Jesus Christ took on every sad day, every hard moment, every depression, every suicidal thought, every instance where pain sorrow and temptation are at its highest, He already took that on Him and He did it for you. He did it individually. And so, prior to Him dying on the cross, He went before God and took on every single suffering so that when the time came, He could vouch for us. He can say, I've taken it upon myself already. If you believe in what I did, then you're good to go. Like, you are forgiven. And so, the Atonement... ⁓ It just leaves me speechless every time. It's something you can probably study for rest of your life and never find an end to it. It's just, I don't know, it's the perfect gift in every instance. I'll read what says. It says, each of us sins and each of us will die. Because God loves us, he sent his son, Jesus Christ, to earth to redeem us from sin and death. Because of Jesus' atoning sacrifice, we can be forgiven and cleansed of our sins. Our hearts can be changed for the better as we repent. This makes it possible for us to return to God's presence and receive a fullness of joy. I remember I can't remember when I realized this but somebody had told me they used the example of Mother Teresa they said if I lived every single day like Mother Teresa like one of the best humans to walk the earth if I lived every single day like her doing good never talking ill just doing good I still wouldn't make it you know like I used to Brynne Erickson (25:00) Mm-hmm. you Paige Aardema (25:11) God expects perfection and God can't live without perfection and so even if I'm living everyday, even if my whole purpose in life is to do good and to serve people, I can't do it without Jesus Christ. I have to have him. He has to be a part of my life. He has to be a part of my belief system or else I can't. I can't go anywhere. You know? ⁓ But one thing too is nowhere in there, nowhere in that whole explanation that I just read does it give specifications of who this applies to. It doesn't give personality traits. It doesn't give how many times they say their prayers during the day. It doesn't give what church they belong to. It says his sacrifice was for every single person. And I don't think people realize that. Like I don't think people realize that there is always going to be a savior who knows you perfectly. Like we talked earlier about he took on every single hardship. Those weren't just generalized hardships. Those weren't just generalized sufferings. Those were individual. Like if you sat here right now and thought of one of the hardest things you've ever had to go through or one of the hardest moments of your entire life, he understands that perfectly. And so, I don't know, I just love the atonement and I love how, personal it is and how it's not just individualized, it's not just for this person or that person, it's for every single human being. Brynne Erickson (26:45) Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I, for me, it's a strength that I draw on in those moments. And man, even what could seem like one of my hard moments might seem like a cakewalk to someone else's, but I love that it's not a competition and that it's not like, your hard isn't hard enough for Christ's help. Paige Aardema (27:21) Right. Brynne Erickson (27:21) Like there's no exception. Like I do genuinely believe that anyone in any circumstance can draw on that power, that atonement power, just by asking for it. And it's truly a beautiful thing that we can utilize. And maybe a lot of us don't do it as often as we could. Paige Aardema (27:50) I agree, for sure. ⁓ We'll keep going with the plan, but I do want to revisit. I think when we get to the end of the plan, and this is really what I want to hone in on today, is just how central the atonement is to the plan of salvation. Nothing is possible without it, now, and post. It all has to do with the atonement of Jesus Christ. With that in mind, we'll keep going, but I do want to come back to it in just a moment. ⁓ But it talks about to like going back a little bit just back into that section. says, because of Jesus, Jesus's resurrection, we will all be resurrected after we die. This means that each person's spirit and body will be reunited and each one of us will live forever in a perfected resurrected body. Again, going back to everybody. not just individual, not just specific people, everybody. But that physical aspect of the Atomic, of him dying on the cross makes the spirit world and makes resurrection possible for us. ⁓ let's jump into the next part of it is the spirit world, ⁓ which is a little bit kind of where we get a little bit different in our belief systems from other Christians. ⁓ Some people talk about like purgatory being very similar to the spirit world. Brynne Erickson (29:08) Mm-hmm. Paige Aardema (29:16) ⁓ I really enjoyed the way that we've kind of talked about it now. We used to talk about the spirit world as, you know, the believers were in spirit paradise and the people who didn't believe were in spirit prison. ⁓ And we've kind of moved away from that in teaching it to people. ⁓ I really think for the better, but also because we use the words spiritual. Spiritual. ⁓ what's the word? Brynne Erickson (29:25) Mm-hmm. Okay. Paige Aardema (29:45) enlightenment and spiritual darkness. And so I'll read this and I'll go back to what I was saying, but when our physical body dies our spirit continues to live in the spirit world. This is a temporary state of learning and preparation before the resurrection. The gospel of Jesus Christ is taught in the spirit world and we can continue to grow and progress. So now answering kind of that bigger question specifically for people who are dealing with You know, I've just lost a loved one. I don't know what happens after death. I don't know if life continues on. What we believe is that they're now in the spirit world and we're all awaiting resurrection when all of our spirits will be reunited with our bodies. But I love that we've used this new verbiage of spiritual enlightenment and spiritual darkness because it kind of highlights what's going on in the spirit world, which is, you know, some people who have a belief in the spirit world will probably understand where they are. and what they're doing and they'll have an overview of the of the salvation. People who didn't really have that understanding are kind of living in spiritual dark, don't really know what's going on, right? That's how I kind of like to think about it. Brynne Erickson (30:55) Yeah. So you'd be, I can kind of see that. Like I'm kind of lost with what's going on over here. Can someone help me? Yeah. Okay. Paige Aardema (31:01) Yeah. Yeah, like, I was just in the hospital, where am I at now? You know? like, so kind of that, you know, these people are kind of wandering around. ⁓ And so these people are like, well, let me bring you into the light. Like, let me help you understand, maybe get a grasp of what's going on or if you have any questions or confusions. ⁓ And so I really like that, you know, kind of that visual that it's giving us now of, you know, we're actively learning still and we're actively using the Atonement and helping people. you know, understand Christ and understand God's plan. And so, I really... Brynne Erickson (31:39) I like that better than, cause I always envisioned like two separate, right? Like you're way up here on the islands and you guys are down there cause you didn't do it right. And I never liked that. But, I like it's, I've kind of evolved it more into just like, it's a state of being like, and which I like the terms enlightened or darkened as far as like, you knew some things on earth that other people didn't know that happened to be helpful. Paige Aardema (31:43) Yeah. Yeah. Brynne Erickson (32:08) to know when you die. And you're all together helping each other out. Again, like in the next phase, rather than separate. And one's better than the other. In this case, it's not, which I really like. That's awesome. Paige Aardema (32:10) Right. Right. Yeah, I absolutely agree. Like I remember in primary we would always use, you know, spiritual paradise and spiritual prison. I was like, sweet, I'm gonna be kicking it back, drinking a drink, you know, sitting on the beach. And these people are behind bars, you know, like it's just such a... That was my visual growing up and there was this bridge and if you cross the bridge then you graduated into paradise. But really it's just helping people understand where they are. Brynne Erickson (32:35) All right. Yes, yeah. Mm-hmm. Paige Aardema (32:51) and giving them the opportunity to say, ⁓ if you want maybe some idea of where we're going to go or what we're doing, here's our teachings, you know? Brynne Erickson (32:58) And I love that, like, we don't really know what's gonna happen after this life. I mean, this is speculation based upon revelation given to certain individuals, right? But I think it's gonna be better than we think it's gonna be, especially if we believe in a loving God. Paige Aardema (33:06) regulations based upon. Brynne Erickson (33:20) Like I'm like, it's really going to work out for everybody. I'm not going to stress about it too much, but I do. I, I appreciate that it kind of has evolved to just like this next phase of learning and understanding, and maybe people will be more like open to the idea of it, but like particularities of what that looks like, where we're really going to be. We don't really know. Like we're not going to claim to know that. Paige Aardema (33:20) absolutely. Absolutely and Brandon I was actually even thinking about that because it kind of moves us into our final couple phases of the plan Which covers the resurrection? So our bodies are uniting with their spirits salvation and exaltation so forever living eternally and something unique to our doctrine is the three degrees of glory or what heaven looks like a lot of Christian belief is in a heaven and in a hell But we believe in three different degrees of glory. One being the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom and the T-lateral kingdom. Kind of abnormal words for people to swallow. I remember teaching on my mission and I was like, okay, I'm gonna throw some alien words at you. I need you to just take them with you know. So kind of where we're getting into newer things or a different way of thinking, but I liked what you said of Brynne Erickson (34:22) Yes, very new. Yeah. Paige Aardema (34:39) It's not, we don't know exactly what it's going to look like. I think that's such a blessing for us. It's kind of a curse and a blessing because I feel like as humans, we just want to have all of our boundaries met. Like we just, we don't like the unexpected. We don't like the unknown. And so as much as I can control and as much as I can put a label on something, great. Like that's going to be so much better for me. ⁓ but Brynne Erickson (34:54) Yes. Paige Aardema (35:08) I really like how we don't know. Like it's all left up to God's judgment of who's gonna end up where. Like there's such a weight that's lifted off your shoulders of specifically if you have people that don't believe in you know don't have similar beliefs to you or don't believe in a God or anything. That's not I don't need like God is going to place them where they feel comfortable and so The way I like to address these three kingdoms is a lot of people are like, well, who's going to be in this one? Who's going to be in this one and who's going to be in this one? I don't know. I can give you a general idea of what it takes. there are promises and there are covenants and there are things that need to take place in order for you to be in the Celestial Kingdom. The other two, I'm not entirely sure. I don't know. It's kind of like being sorted into a Harry Potter house. Like everybody just wants to know. I don't want to know because I know like Brynne Erickson (35:43) Mm-hmm. Paige Aardema (36:06) I have a firm belief and I know that God is a loving Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ loves us more than anything. He wouldn't have done what he did if he didn't. and whatever they are gonna come up with for you in your eternal progression, you're going to be okay with it. You're going to love it, genuinely. Like I think, my mom always talks about the three kingdoms of glory and people are going to be comfortable with where they are. And that's gonna be, and that's what's gonna be the beautiful aspect of it is we believe in these three kingdoms of glory. Like they're not, one's not I don't really want to say one's not better than the other, they're all incredible places. there's no suffering. There's no bad spot to end up in. It's all of God's gifts just in three different degrees. ⁓ And so I kind of, I don't know, I was taking some notes. I don't know. Did you have anything that you were thinking? Brynne Erickson (37:11) I just say, can we backpedal a little bit and maybe be a little more specific for those who don't know what we mean by three kingdoms of glory. Paige Aardema (37:20) yeah, absolutely. So ⁓ basically we believe in three heavens. So the degrees of glory are glory. Like they're not bad, they're glory. And so we split them up into three. I don't know specifically why they're split up into three, but basically in the celestial kingdom is where God will reside. God will live in the celestial kingdom. And there are certain aspects and there's certain things that need to take place in order to be in the celestial kingdom. Baptism is the gate to the celestial kingdom. You have to be baptized. And then when we talk about covenants in the temple, those are just further things that help us along in the celestial kingdom. Essentially those are steps that need to be taken in order to be more like God. It's really just about keeping promises and making promises with God and upholding them. So holding yourself to a higher standard. The next one down is the terrestrial kingdom and they use these, I never understood this before but they use the like ⁓ They use different symbols for each of the kingdoms, kind of, to represent each one. So they have the sun, the moon, and the stars. So the celestial is the sun, the terrestrial is the moon, and the stars are the T-lestral. And I've never really thought about it like this, but each one gives off a different amount of light. The sun gives off the most amount of light, the moon a little bit less, and then the stars a little bit less. And I really think it's just... Brynne Erickson (38:33) Mm-hmm. Paige Aardema (38:59) Whoever is in whichever kingdom is really just their commitment to God's light in their life, you know, like what ⁓ How they want to accept God likes, you know, if you're accepting God and you're living to his standards you're giving off I don't know. I've always thought about you like you're giving off this light and you're projecting the light of God or the light of Christ And so I think understanding those three different Symbols or those three different degrees kind of helps me understand What's their commitment to God? know, is it as bright as the sun, as bright as the moon, as bright as the stars? but does that kind of help a little bit more? Brynne Erickson (39:37) Yeah. As far as what we believe with the three degrees of glory. Yeah. Paige Aardema (39:42) Yeah, it's kind of like I said since we don't really know specifically what each one looks like it's kind of hard to get into the nitty-gritty but I really like to focus on people will feel comfortable where they are and all of them are a type of heaven everybody's going to you know be experiencing a greater a greater place than here you know Brynne Erickson (40:01) Mm-hmm. Mm. Paige Aardema (40:06) ⁓ But as I was sitting and I was preparing to kind of discuss this, I taught the plan of salvation just recently to one of my friends who didn't grow up in the church, doesn't really necessarily have any sort of Christian belief or anything like that. And so I was kind of introducing this, you know, idea of three degrees of heaven, three degrees of glory. And The thing that I felt like they took away the most, and I've never really noticed this before just because when you grow up in Utah, kind of everybody knows, you can just throw something out that everybody believes and nobody's gonna... Right. Right. And when I introduced this, it kind of felt like... And I needed to apologize for the way I presented it, but like, one person was better than the other, or one degree was better than the other. ⁓ But it's like, it's almost as if we explain... Brynne Erickson (40:40) Yeah, a term, a concept. Paige Aardema (41:01) the celestial kingdom is this super high end club that only certain people will occupy and it's like so exclusive that nobody can get access to it. But yeah, so well, but and that's what I'm saying, like while there are commitments and promises and actions needed, everybody has the opportunity to enter. Like from what I know, everyone will and from what I believe in what I know about God and about his love. Brynne Erickson (41:11) Seems that way. Mm-hmm. Paige Aardema (41:31) that everybody will want to enter, you know? Like I don't- I think since we explain it so much and we over saturate it so much, people just think, well, they don't really get into what that feels like. Like when I was pondering on why I want to live in the celestial kingdom and why I want to be there, I was thinking about all of the biggest blessings of my life were the moments where I sat and I went, this is a gift from God. whether it was people in my life, whether it was a super specific experience that only me and God would understand, whether it was an answer to a prayer, like I was thinking about all of those moments and I can't explain it but like I can't explain how I would feel but times that by a billion, know, like times those good blessings and those warm feelings and those things that you just can't make up on your own, times it by a billion. I can't really think of anybody that would not want that. That would want to throw away, not throw away, but exclude all of those feelings from their life, you know? And so while the Celestial Kingdom does take work and it does take certain commitments, it's offered to every single individual. And I think, I know people will want to be there. I know people will want to feel God's love and will want to have them in their life consistently. You Brynne Erickson (42:58) Yeah, and as far as I remember, because I haven't studied this in a long time, but our doctrine goes that the celestial kingdom is the place, only place, where you get to be with your family and in God's presence. Is that still what we teach? Paige Aardema (43:17) I think you'll in terms of being with your family if they're all keeping the commit like if they're all keeping their own personal covenants and are qualifying to be in the celestial kingdom I don't think and again this is me personally speaking I need to do my better research on what these specific things look like and what these specific you know kingdoms look like I don't if they're from what I understand about God and his his love for families, why would we not be able to be with our family in the Tileshila Kingdom or the Tileshila Kingdom? You know, why wouldn't I be able to be with people I love? I don't, I just don't see that he would break people up because, you know, because of that. Like I really, I really don't. I think, you know, being sealed and being sealed together as a family and having that connection and having that connection with God is a whole different conversation, but I wouldn't understand why a God who loves his children so much and loves his children that love his children would want to be split, Brynne Erickson (44:27) Yeah. And I had texted you my question. This might be a good time to bring it up. And it was, if this is a true plan of happiness, then why are so many Latter-day Saint families distraught about it? Right? With choices of children and loved ones where they step away from the church and so many parents' hearts are breaking because they think they can't be with their family forever. Paige Aardema (44:41) Yeah. Right. Brynne Erickson (44:56) And so then either the entire family is like, well, we might as well all be in the terrestrial kingdom together. Right. And so let's just all jump ship. or they're trying to bring their families back and that's their one endeavor because they are fearful of what the afterlife will be. And I just can't, I cannot believe that that's what God intended because Paige Aardema (45:03) Yeah. Right. Brynne Erickson (45:26) Like, why would he create a plan of happiness that would keep families apart? Like, it just doesn't make any sense to me. So in fact, I don't even believe that anymore. I am just like, it's just gonna work out and God loves families. Like we preach, we have songs about it and we preach that. Like the pivotal moment of all of this is families and Adam and Eve having children and having children and then. Paige Aardema (45:41) You Brynne Erickson (45:51) creating these beautiful units of partnership and bringing in children if that's what you want. And ⁓ I just can't, I'm like, there must be a piece missing somewhere or that, I don't know why that belief was thrown in there that the Celestial Kingdom was so exclusive with the family thing and even God's presence and love. Like that's kind of a hard one for me too. But I've just decided that it's going to work out. And really me believing like we only have bits and pieces and even if we're accurate, who knows if we really are, at least that's what I believe. Like this is just one more take on it. ⁓ But I believe in a loving God and I believe that it's just all gonna work out and I'm not gonna stress too much on what I don't truly know and what I can't even control. Cause I can't control the choices that my family members make. But I can control what I'm doing here and now. In fact, when Think Celestial came out, that was actually really hard for me. And I know it was hard for a lot of other people. And I kind of was like, okay, how could I reframe this to mean something for me or include me and my family? So my brother is gay and I have one that has stepped away from the church. And when this happened, I remember thinking, well, what on earth does this mean for my family? And here come my tears. And that was kind of hard. That was really hard. Not kind of hard. That was really hard. And... ⁓ I just remember being overwhelmed with just love and that it was all going to work out and it was all going to be okay. And when Think Celestial came out and I had to reframe that for me, I was like, you know, I can't control what happens after this life, but I can do everything I can right here and right now to show my family how much I love them and how much they mean to me. and do everything I can to keep them close. And that's what I'm going to focus on is thinking celestial here and now doing what I can do. And that's really served me. And yeah, I don't know what those three kingdoms will be like. I like thinking that they're kind of more of a state of being rather than separate places. And I do love in our doctrine that heaven is big and there is a place for everybody there. I love that. Whereas in so many other beliefs, it's you're barely hardly like heaven in general is exclusive. And most of you are just going to accept that you're going to hell. Like how awful is that? Like that breaks my heart. And we preach that majority of people will Paige Aardema (48:43) Yeah. Right. Brynne Erickson (48:55) end up in heaven and very few, like too few to mention. think one of the ⁓ leaders of the church mentioned in a talk, like too few to even mention will end up in hell. And to me, that is just a beautiful thing. And I don't know the logistics of it and I'm okay with that, but I just trust and love so much that it's going to work out. Paige Aardema (49:05) Yeah. Right. Yeah, right. There's ⁓ two things before. I just want to kind of round out everything. But there's a quote that I loved that I can't remember where I was reading it, but it was one of the apostles. But they said, I do not worry where the heaven, whether the heavenly gates swing or slide, I'm only concerned that they open. ⁓ And so I think when we get into, you know, we can get lost in the nitty gritty of Brynne Erickson (49:43) Yeah, the minutia. Paige Aardema (49:43) who's gonna be here, who's gonna be there, but really all that matters is that they're gonna be open and people are gonna wanna be there. ⁓ And kind of, I don't know, kind of just around everything that I've said and really if I sound like a mumbling idiot the whole time, really I just want people to understand that this is what I believe. But ⁓ when I taught the lesson and when I spelled out love on the board, it was that whole... It was all the plan of salvation from beginning to end that spelled the word love. And that's the whole point. The whole point of us starting is because God loved us so much that he wanted us to progress and he wanted us to learn. The whole point of me being here is to love God and love Christ and you know return to him because he loves me and I love him. The whole point of having these degrees of glory, this whole point of having an afterlife Brynne Erickson (50:16) Yeah. Paige Aardema (50:39) because God loves us and he wants us to progress. And so the whole point of this plan is love. And he loved us so much that he sent a savior. This wouldn't be possible. If he didn't love us, he would have just sent us down here with no plan, with no, you know, even way to get back to him. If there was no love there, if it was just a God who only believed in justice, there would have never been a savior. And so when we go when we kind of go back to your question of ⁓ what was the specific verb that you used in your text, I really enjoyed it. Brynne Erickson (51:18) So I said, a main question I want to talk about is, if the plan of salvation is meant to be one of happiness, why are so many Latter-day Saints in great distress about it with their family? Paige Aardema (51:32) thought that I've had for a long time because I've had very, not, you know, exactly the same experiences as you, but I've seen people that I absolutely love with my whole heart just toss all of this to the side and, you know, go the direction that they wanted to go. And I think people worry and families worry because if you stay in the church it's because you believe and it's because you see blessings. It's so hard to have faith that this kingdom is going to be great. Like that's hard, especially when we're living every single day with what we have in front of our face. But we see the blessings and so a lot of families fret because I think they used to fret because they weren't checking the boxes and they weren't living the Christian life that they had planned out for them and that was hard. Now I think families... Brynne Erickson (52:25) Mm-hmm. Paige Aardema (52:30) worry and family struggle because this world is hard and these last days are going to be hard and having a plan of salvation and having a celestial view of things or an eternal view of things helps you pull yourself out of this world and go you know these are the things of most importance, these are the things that matter. But the biggest thing and a thought that I've had for a long time is we discount the word infinite. Brynne Erickson (52:50) you Paige Aardema (53:00) when it comes to the Atonement. The Atonement is everlasting. It's something that doesn't have an end. It's going to be readily available forever. And as human beings we want to put, like we want to you know, labels on things. As much as we want to like control everything, we want to control a timeline and we want to control Brynne Erickson (53:17) A start and an end, yeah. Paige Aardema (53:27) when something happens and if it's not happening in our timeline we freak out and we worry and it's hard and it's stressful and it's emotionally exhausting and so when we have our family members or we have our friends that aren't living God's plan of happiness and aren't understanding that it's a plan of happiness it stresses us out because we can't control the timeline and we can't control when they're going to believe and when they're going to they're going to come back and if they're going to believe. And so we have to hone in on that word infinite. We have to hone in on the idea that they will forever have an opportunity to choose Christ. They will forever have an opportunity to repent or to accept Christ's sacrifice in their life. That is infinite. That is never going away. And so for me, As I'm trying to live the plan, as I'm trying to take my perspective on things, I heavily believe that Christ's atonement is forever and it is for everyone. I heavily believe that God is a loving God and will make everything work out. There's gonna be no accidents, there's gonna be no mistakes in this afterlife, there's going to be love first. and an atonement forever and so I Don't know that's just something that helps me always round out and always Answer my questions when they go back through the plan of salvation is there is a Savior who knows us perfectly And he's ready to stand by every one of us forever Brynne Erickson (55:11) Do think that applies to people not in the LDS church too? Paige Aardema (55:15) Absolutely, absolutely. There was nothing, there was nothing in the plan of salvation that says, hey if you're this belief system or if you go to church here, if you go, you know, if you don't go to church there, then you're excluded. It is forever and for everyone. Brynne Erickson (55:31) Awesome. Thanks for those reminders, Paige, and freshening us up on our plan of salvation doctrine, especially from ⁓ you haven't been home too long. When did you surf? Paige Aardema (55:42) I've been home for almost four years? Brynne Erickson (55:46) It goes by fast, doesn't it? So what years did you serve? So that would have been 20. Paige Aardema (55:47) It's been a minute, yeah. It's quick. I served in the heart of COVID, so I went out July 2020 and then came home December of 2021. Brynne Erickson (55:55) girl. Okay, that's amazing. Good job. Paige Aardema (56:06) Yeah. Hey, thanks. It was a good time. was seriously so fundamental for me and I don't know, just really gives me purpose in every aspect of the word. Brynne Erickson (56:09) I'm This is impromptu, but do you have a memory from your mission where this plan, like sharing this message of the plan of salvation was really helpful or pivotal for someone on your mission? Paige Aardema (56:37) Absolutely. There was a girl that we taught ⁓ in one of my favorite areas. Her name was Ayana. And Ayana, her mom signed her up for Bible study because she just wanted her to make friends. She just wanted her to get out and make friends. And we were responding to this Bible study. ⁓ And when we started talking to her, she had no understanding of anything, like any Christian belief, any... religious belief like nothing like she didn't know who Adam and Eve was she never heard of them and so We always talked about her as our blank canvas ⁓ like she just was ready to take on anything and ready to take on everything and she struggled a lot with with mental health and with depression and ⁓ You know knowing who she was and what she meant to this world and so I remember teaching her the plan of salvation and teaching her about that she has a purpose here and that she can make a difference here and that there is a Christ who understands her brain and understands her struggles and understands what it's like to wake up in the morning and not want to be there or what it's like to have no motivation to do anything and seriously I saw ⁓ color come into a human being. don't know if you've seen that before but seeing color and light come into a human being is game changing and that all came from teaching her about her purpose. I don't know if she retained this detail or that detail or remembers the kingdoms in order. I don't really care but she found purpose and she knew that a god loved her and that there was a savior that was going to stand up for her no matter what and that was so cool to see. Like such a life-altering moment for me. Brynne Erickson (58:39) I love that. And I just had this thought too for people that feel like the plan doesn't include them or they're not finding happiness in it. I would encourage maybe an opportunity to reframe of how you might fit in. because I believe that the plan was made for all of us. Like everything you just said, Paige, like the plan was for us and because he loves us and because Jesus knows us and God knows us and our hearts, like all of us fit in here into this plan. No one is excluded. So if you're feeling like you don't fit in, or someone that you love doesn't fit in, find a place for them. Like you, you be the one to do the soul searching and find where your loved ones belong in this plan because there is a place for them. And I feel really strongly about that. Well, Paige, this was beautiful. I mean, I didn't know what to expect from this. I just followed one, the next right step as I always try to do. And I feel really honored and blessed that we got to have this beautiful conversation and a refresher on what this beautiful plan is. Is there anything that you want to leave us with before we close? Paige Aardema (1:00:00) Yeah. ⁓ just thank you for the opportunity for letting me come and share. I can't tell you how important and how amazing the final salvation is and what it's done for me. Anytime I question why, anytime I wonder about a certain belief or anytime I put myself in some of my friends shoes who don't have a relationship with the Heavenly Father, the plan of salvation is always something that grounds me and it's always something that gives me perspective and gives me purpose. And so, I don't know, I always like to leave with an invitation whether I'm teaching or leave society or having a conversation with people. And I honestly, whether you're a believer in God, whether you're a member of the church, whatever, find your why of why you can, why do you be the person that you are? Why do you wake up every day and hope for something good? Like find why. And that will help you find a belonging, find out a lot about yourself and hopefully and ultimately lead you to a god and a savior that love you. Like, I can't stress enough how important it is to know that God's real and that Jesus is there for you. And so, I invite you to find your why. That's my biggest thing. It's a game changer. It's a life changer. Brynne Erickson (1:01:40) it gives you purpose for your life. Like it starts lighting up your life. Like whether it leads you to God and Jesus or not, think whether you believe in them or not too, they want you to be happy. And when you, I totally agree. When you answer that question, that's when you really start living the life that you want because you answered that question. Paige Aardema (1:01:50) I'm so silly. Exactly. Brynne Erickson (1:02:01) So that's awesome. All right, Paige, we're going to link in the show notes where people can find the reference to this love outline of the plan of salvation. And hopefully people will check it out and do their own little dive. This has been super insightful, and I really appreciate your time. Paige Aardema (1:02:23) Thanks for, and I appreciate it. Brynne Erickson (1:02:24) Okay, thanks.