Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Why Steven Avery doesn't deserve a new trial & missing & murdered women in N.C.

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Why Steven Avery doesn't deserve a new trial & missing & murdered women in N.C. · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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1:36
Speaker 1: Climb stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel
1:40
Speaker 1: one thirty two. Hundreds of thousands of people are calling
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Speaker 1: for the pardon of a convicted killer after the Netflix
1:47
Speaker 1: series Making a Murderer exposed possible flaws in the case
1:50
Speaker 1: that put him behind bars. We have Stephen Avery, and
1:53
Speaker 1: Making a Murderer tells the story of Stephen Aver. He's
1:56
Speaker 1: the Wisconsin man who served eighteen years in prison for
1:59
Speaker 1: rape before exonerated. In two thousand and three. We the
2:02
Speaker 1: jury find the defendant guilty of only to find himself
2:06
Speaker 1: in prison again on a murder conviction. In two thousand seven.
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Speaker 1: Many viewers concluded Avery was framed by authorities who lied
2:15
Speaker 1: and planted evidence. Stephen Avery is right where he needs
2:18
Speaker 1: to be in prison. I think he was innocent. Is
2:22
Speaker 1: innocent unless you've been living in a cave or hiding
2:27
Speaker 1: under a rock. You know about Netflix? I mean I
2:30
Speaker 1: do I have to navigate it very carefully, though, because
2:33
Speaker 1: my twins like to get on there and watch kid shows.
2:36
Speaker 1: There's a lot more on there than kids shows, I
2:38
Speaker 1: can tell you that much. But right now I don't
2:40
Speaker 1: think I know a single soul that doesn't know about
2:44
Speaker 1: the Netflix so called documentary called Making a Murderer, which
2:49
Speaker 1: takes thousands and thousands of hours of footage, cuts it
2:54
Speaker 1: down and suggest that a convicted killer, Stephen Avery, did
3:00
Speaker 1: not murder a young photographer to rease the hallback. Now,
3:05
Speaker 1: this is how I know about the case. When I
3:07
Speaker 1: first encountered the case, I was covering it as a
3:12
Speaker 1: missing person to raise the hallback. A twentysomething year old girl,
3:16
Speaker 1: just beautiful. She was like the girl next door for
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Speaker 1: some reason. She always reminds me of Maryanne all Gilgan's
3:22
Speaker 1: Island um. Not necessarily physically upbeat photographer trying to make
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Speaker 1: her way in the world, brunette, big brown eyes, always
3:32
Speaker 1: smiling and every picture I ever saw of her, and
3:36
Speaker 1: she was taking pictures, photos for auto Trader, I think
3:41
Speaker 1: it was. And she did not want to go to
3:43
Speaker 1: a certain gig because the guy was creepy, like answering
3:46
Speaker 1: the door or nothing. But a towel. I mean I
3:48
Speaker 1: would turn around and leave right there. Okay, but that aside,
3:52
Speaker 1: she needed the money. She got a call back from
3:55
Speaker 1: the guy to take a picture of a vehicle for
3:57
Speaker 1: Auto Trader. She heads out the door, told us, tells
4:00
Speaker 1: her coworker she doesn't want to go, heads out the door.
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Speaker 1: She's never seen alive again. Of course, I'm talking about
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Speaker 1: Stephen Avery, the star of Making a Murderer on Netflix.
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Speaker 1: It caught the country by storm, and everybody's convinced Stephen
4:19
Speaker 1: Avery didn't do it. Okay. With me is a very
4:24
Speaker 1: important guest today, Detective Tom Fassbender, who is the lead
4:28
Speaker 1: investigator on the Avery case, as I like to say
4:32
Speaker 1: the Tersa Hallback case. Also with me Crime Online investigative
4:36
Speaker 1: reporter Lee Egan, and of course Alan Duke joining me
4:40
Speaker 1: from l A. Tom, I can't tell you what an
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Speaker 1: honor it is, and I don't know how many times
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Speaker 1: you've heard me say something like that, probably very few.
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Speaker 1: And honor to have you on because you have endeared
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Speaker 1: the onslaught of the media suggesting Stephen Avery did not
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Speaker 1: rape and murder to Esa Haulback, I mean, come on,
5:02
Speaker 1: when I had him on my show on h l
5:04
Speaker 1: N Headline News. He lied right to my face, Tom,
5:08
Speaker 1: he lied about what happened that evening. Why lie about it?
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Speaker 1: It seems like you'd be trying to help find her.
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Speaker 1: Why are you convinced, Tom and dummy down for me? Okay,
5:19
Speaker 1: give me the facts. Why are you convinced Avery is
5:22
Speaker 1: guilty of rape and murder because a judge has rejected
5:27
Speaker 1: his request for a new trial? Thank heaven? Why are
5:33
Speaker 1: you convinced Tom Fassbender that the judge was right? Well, Nancie,
5:38
Speaker 1: thank you first for having me on, And why I
5:41
Speaker 1: am convinced? I'm gonna dum you down as much as
5:43
Speaker 1: they can. Here is number one, the scientific evidence overwhelmingly
5:48
Speaker 1: who's that Stephen Avery did this? And number two, you
5:52
Speaker 1: can disregard a little of the scientific evidence and you
5:55
Speaker 1: can go right back to what you mentioned earlier, that
5:57
Speaker 1: Stephen Avery lured Teresa to his place by using different names,
6:02
Speaker 1: by using Star Sixtus to his identity. Wait a minute, Tom,
6:07
Speaker 1: dare I dare I change a word you're saying? But
6:12
Speaker 1: when you say did this? You know in polite company
6:16
Speaker 1: when I grew up, we wouldn't even say cancer out loud.
6:19
Speaker 1: We would say she got cancer. Okay, things that are bad.
6:24
Speaker 1: They have a drinking problem. You said, did this, Let's
6:28
Speaker 1: just put it out there. He chained her to a bed,
6:34
Speaker 1: chained her to a bed with his little nephew or
6:38
Speaker 1: cousin there, Brendan Dacy chained her to a bed. She
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Speaker 1: was raped repeatedly. All her hair was cut off, her
6:46
Speaker 1: head and neil. She was shot dead after a brutal rape,
6:50
Speaker 1: chained down, then her body was put in a quote
6:54
Speaker 1: fire pit in his backyard, which he stirred well into
7:00
Speaker 1: and night. Friends relatives saw him doing it and in
7:04
Speaker 1: that fire pit. Later were recovered, not too much, but
7:08
Speaker 1: her teeth and the studs offered daisy flintest Jane she
7:12
Speaker 1: was wearing that she was last sane. Is that correct?
7:16
Speaker 1: That's the this to which you referred. That is correct,
7:19
Speaker 1: Steven Every murdered Teresa Halbach and burned her in that
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Speaker 1: pit where we found her creamines, bones, keeth and even
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Speaker 1: the little ribbits on the Jeane she was wearing that day.
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Speaker 1: Why do you know he didn't? I don't care no
7:32
Speaker 1: offense Netflix, because I watch you. Why are they wrong?
7:37
Speaker 1: And the jury was right because of the nancy. That
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Speaker 1: jury heard all the evidence to include Stephen Avery's DNA
7:44
Speaker 1: on the hood latch off Teresa's rap four vehicle, Stephen
7:49
Speaker 1: Avery having burned her electronics, her telephone, her p d A,
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Speaker 1: and her camera in his burned barrel. You didn't see
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Speaker 1: that on Netflix. Wait a minute, will you say that again? Plays?
8:00
Speaker 1: I'm I'm writing notes as fast as I can. Tom
8:02
Speaker 1: fast Bander, what now? Teresas hallbox, electronics, her telephone, her
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Speaker 1: her camera, and her PDA where found burned in Stephen
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Speaker 1: Avery's burned barrel. There were witnesses to that burned barrel
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Speaker 1: burning that day October thirty one, two thousand five. There
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Speaker 1: were witnesses seeing Stephen walking to that burned barrel. There
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Speaker 1: was a witness who smelled plastics and her stuff was
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Speaker 1: filing in ned burn barrel. You don't see that on
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Speaker 1: the Netflix documentary, and there's no way you can mistake that.
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Speaker 1: Lee Egan, investigative Reporter, Crime Online. UM. I will never
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Speaker 1: forget the first time I smelled burned electronics or plastics.
8:41
Speaker 1: It was after nine one one September eleven in New
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Speaker 1: York where I was living at the time of nine
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Speaker 1: one one, and the whole city smell like burning. Uh.
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Speaker 1: Plastic her electronics. I mean, nobody had to tell me
8:54
Speaker 1: what it was. I knew what it was. I've been
8:55
Speaker 1: a million, Arson says, and I hadn't smelled it so heavily. Lee. Yep,
8:59
Speaker 1: absolutely they and there was people like like Mr Fastmanner
9:03
Speaker 1: said there was a lot of evidence that was left
9:05
Speaker 1: out of that documentary, including people did say they smelled
9:09
Speaker 1: burning plastics electronics, something coming from that burn pit, and
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Speaker 1: one and something else. He brought up about the DNA
9:17
Speaker 1: on the hood latch. That was one of the reasons
9:19
Speaker 1: the judge actually denied this this new motion because his attorney,
9:25
Speaker 1: Avery's attorney, Zellner, she said something that she tested eleven
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Speaker 1: or like fifteen people. She tested fifteen people with their
9:33
Speaker 1: DNA on the hood latch, and only eleven people's DNA matched,
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Speaker 1: So she's trying to say there's no way to say
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Speaker 1: Avery's DNA could have matched, which, of course, the judge says,
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Speaker 1: even if eleven or fifteen people did not match, that
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Speaker 1: doesn't mean one particular person wouldn't have left DNA. I
9:51
Speaker 1: want to get back to the facts as you know
9:52
Speaker 1: them with me. Lead investigator in the Stephen Avery prosecution,
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Speaker 1: Detective Tom fastbender. I had in, did you, so you
10:00
Speaker 1: can clarify for me anyway that Teresa's cell phone, her
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Speaker 1: p d A, her camera were all burned in the
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Speaker 1: fire pit that even relatives and friends saw Stephen Avery
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Speaker 1: stirring and burning into the night. It was later claimed
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Speaker 1: police planted all that. But he's the one that relatives.
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Speaker 1: Avery's relatives and friends saw tending the fire, not police.
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Speaker 1: I want to get back to the facts as you
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Speaker 1: know them, Tom Fassbinder, Go ahead, I'll try not to interrupt.
10:30
Speaker 1: Excuse me, no, no problem, Um, Yeah, it was the
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Speaker 1: burn He had two places that he burned. He had
10:36
Speaker 1: the burned pit where he burned Teresa's body, and he
10:40
Speaker 1: also had the burned barrel in front of his house
10:42
Speaker 1: stats where he had the electronics. So two different locations
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Speaker 1: where he was burning and Teresa. And then the evidence
10:49
Speaker 1: and then the other thing are you gonna mention? Was
10:51
Speaker 1: in the garage where we knew that that Stephen had
10:54
Speaker 1: shot Teresa and killed her. A bullet fragment was found
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Speaker 1: and on nipple a fragment was Teresa's DNA and all
11:02
Speaker 1: saw that bullet fragment was forensically matched to the twenty
11:05
Speaker 1: two rifle hanging above Stephen Avery's bed board, which his
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Speaker 1: nephew told us he had used to do this, and
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Speaker 1: that was not mentioned in making a murder either, that
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Speaker 1: the bullet was forensically matched two of that twenty two
11:19
Speaker 1: caliber rifles. So in order for police to have planted
11:22
Speaker 1: the evidence as it is now claimed, you're telling me
11:25
Speaker 1: not a bullet but a bullet fragment, and having tested
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Speaker 1: forensically so many hundreds hundreds of bullets at the least
11:35
Speaker 1: with the crime lab as a prosecutor, A bullet fragment
11:38
Speaker 1: is mangled, it is destroyed. It's a squished up, mutilated
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Speaker 1: piece of metal. And this tiny piece of metal was
11:46
Speaker 1: part of a twenty two bullet for a twenty two
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Speaker 1: weapon bullet, and it had Teresa Halback's DNA on it,
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Speaker 1: who shot in the head that was found in Avery's garages.
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Speaker 1: That correct, com That is correct. Hold on with me
12:05
Speaker 1: right now, a special guest. Hunter skull Nick, criminal defense
12:08
Speaker 1: attorney joining me out of New York. Hunter, thank you
12:11
Speaker 1: for being with us. I want to hear your thinking
12:14
Speaker 1: on the judge's denial of Stephen Avery's motion for a
12:18
Speaker 1: brand new trial. What do you think and why? Uh? Well,
12:22
Speaker 1: let's let me put it this way, and thank you
12:23
Speaker 1: for having me here. I do appreciate it. UM. I
12:26
Speaker 1: just find it very concerning that the judge would deny
12:33
Speaker 1: a new trial at this point where you have an
12:37
Speaker 1: appellate court that's already um disapproved the way in which
12:43
Speaker 1: the the the information was obtained from Avery's nephew. If
12:49
Speaker 1: his conviction is weak based upon um uh improper handling
12:56
Speaker 1: of of of of the young man, and this convey
13:00
Speaker 1: and this confession, and much of the proof against Avery
13:04
Speaker 1: begins with that, UM, why wouldn't you at least give
13:07
Speaker 1: a new trial. I'm not suggesting, UM, he's innocent simply
13:12
Speaker 1: because of that. I'm not I'm not suggesting additional UH
13:16
Speaker 1: testing or police work shouldn't be allowed into the trial.
13:20
Speaker 1: But there's a chaint here. Why put someone away to
13:24
Speaker 1: jail with that type of taint and not give the
13:27
Speaker 1: opportunity for a retrial. It just doesn't make sense with me,
13:31
Speaker 1: as Hunter School Nick Criminal Defense Journey out of New York. Well,
13:34
Speaker 1: I think Tom Fastbinder the appellate reasoning was that Brendan Dacy,
13:39
Speaker 1: although I completely disagree with them, had no idea what
13:43
Speaker 1: he was doing when he confessed to police that he
13:45
Speaker 1: raped at Stephen Avery's urging rape Teresa Holback. I don't
13:50
Speaker 1: recall he ever said that he took part in the murder,
13:53
Speaker 1: but that he did rape her. And he said that
13:56
Speaker 1: on tape and on video, and his mother knew he
13:59
Speaker 1: was there, his lawyer, detective investigators knew he was there
14:04
Speaker 1: speaking to police. The appellate court said that his i
14:07
Speaker 1: Q was low, so he didn't understand what he was saying.
14:09
Speaker 1: Is my understanding of the decision that really the mastermind
14:13
Speaker 1: was Stephen Avery, not Brendan Dacy, the nephew. So how
14:17
Speaker 1: in the world with an appellate court saying it was
14:19
Speaker 1: really Stephen Avery, should we reverse and grant a new
14:23
Speaker 1: trial for Stephen Avery. That that's just food for thought.
14:27
Speaker 1: But Tom Fassbender, you mentioned the burn pits and the
14:31
Speaker 1: two locations of burning Teresa Haulback body and possessions. What
14:38
Speaker 1: DNA was found on Teresa Avery's car which was hidden
14:43
Speaker 1: at the back of Stephen Avery's auto salvage a lot.
14:47
Speaker 1: What what DNA was on her car which was found
14:49
Speaker 1: on his property. The DNA found it was in the
14:52
Speaker 1: car and it was in blood form. And Stephen Avery's
14:55
Speaker 1: DNA was found and essentially all portions of that car,
15:00
Speaker 1: the front of the car, the mid section of the car,
15:01
Speaker 1: the back of the car. Theresa Hall box of blood
15:04
Speaker 1: DNA was also found in the storage area in the
15:08
Speaker 1: back of that raft for when her body was placed
15:11
Speaker 1: in the back of that car after being shot. Tom Fastbender,
15:17
Speaker 1: you have reconstructed the entire day is Halloween back in
15:23
Speaker 1: oh five. You've reconstructed the entire day that Theresa Hall
15:27
Speaker 1: Back endured her last day on earth. What does the
15:31
Speaker 1: evidence tell you happened from the time she left her
15:36
Speaker 1: office or her job to go take those pictures? What
15:40
Speaker 1: happened to her? The Treesa began her day early in
15:44
Speaker 1: the morning, and basically she was lured to Stephen Avery's
15:48
Speaker 1: house by Stephen Avery for the purpose of Stephen Avery
15:53
Speaker 1: abducting her and ultimately killing her, murdering her um. There's
15:57
Speaker 1: no question about that. The scientific evidence show is that,
16:00
Speaker 1: and I will address Hunter's comments were just a second
16:03
Speaker 1: in that Brendan Dacy's confession was not used in Stephen
16:07
Speaker 1: Avery's trial, so there was no connection in that respect.
16:11
Speaker 1: Stephen Avery was convicted on the evidence. So the nephews testimony,
16:17
Speaker 1: the nephew's confession to raping her before she was murdered
16:21
Speaker 1: while she was chained down on a bed that never
16:24
Speaker 1: came into Stephen Avery's trial. That is correct, so there
16:27
Speaker 1: was not an essential piece of that trial. The court,
16:31
Speaker 1: the trial courts just recently found and denied Stephen Avery's
16:36
Speaker 1: motion for a new trial, and in my opinion, because
16:38
Speaker 1: it was based on theory, assumption and accusations not backed
16:43
Speaker 1: by evidence. And what what resulted what we anticipated from
16:48
Speaker 1: the court dismissal and emotion in its entirety without a hearing.
16:53
Speaker 1: And because of that, we hope that the Hall Blacks
16:55
Speaker 1: family can take the next step towards closure in this
16:58
Speaker 1: case and a law enforcement can be further vindicated in
17:01
Speaker 1: the great job that in this case. February two thousand four,
17:10
Speaker 1: Maura Murray empties her bank account, drives four hours from school,
17:14
Speaker 1: crashes her car, and vanishes. Joined the search as an
17:19
Speaker 1: investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence and charrygates new witnesses, traces
17:24
Speaker 1: down new leads in this riveting new investigative series, The
17:28
Speaker 1: Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven sixth Central and nine
17:34
Speaker 1: eighth Central on Oxygen the new network for Crime with
17:45
Speaker 1: Me is Detective Tom Fastbender, who is the lead investigator
17:51
Speaker 1: on the Avery case. As I like to say that
17:54
Speaker 1: Teresa hallback case Also with Me Crime Online investigative reporter
17:58
Speaker 1: Lee Egan, and Hunt her skull Nick criminal defense attorney
18:02
Speaker 1: joining me out of New York. Based on the evidence, Tom,
18:05
Speaker 1: she leaves her office to go take photos. She had
18:08
Speaker 1: taken photos for every before and he was so creepy.
18:12
Speaker 1: She didn't want to go back, and she told her
18:14
Speaker 1: friends that at work, but she went back anyway. What
18:16
Speaker 1: happens then, Tom, basically evidence She gets there between about
18:21
Speaker 1: two between two thirty and three, takes photo of the car,
18:25
Speaker 1: and Stephen has her come up to his house where
18:28
Speaker 1: she's abducted, um ultimately raped and murdered. His next door
18:35
Speaker 1: neighbor and nephew saw Teresa there taking picture of the car,
18:39
Speaker 1: saw her walk towards Teresa or towards Stephen's house, and
18:42
Speaker 1: then when he left the house to go hunting, Teresa's
18:45
Speaker 1: carr was still there and Teresa was not around, and
18:48
Speaker 1: neither was Stephen. What did she endure in her last hours? Tom,
18:53
Speaker 1: I don't I don't even want to imagine what she
18:55
Speaker 1: she endured her last hours. And because of that, and
18:58
Speaker 1: I'm not and vitalize what she enduring the last hour,
19:03
Speaker 1: You know, Alan, do that takes a lot for a
19:05
Speaker 1: seasoned investigator, a veteran investigator like Time Fastbender, not to
19:10
Speaker 1: even want to think about it. You know, I've had
19:12
Speaker 1: cases like that where I just can't stand to even
19:17
Speaker 1: think about it. It makes me want to vomit. It
19:21
Speaker 1: makes me just want to run outside. And how I
19:25
Speaker 1: remember a feeling, Alan. I had been working on my
19:28
Speaker 1: first book. It was a nonfiction called Objection, and one
19:32
Speaker 1: of the chapters is called blood Money, How people make
19:34
Speaker 1: money off crime and murder. And I had detailed how
19:39
Speaker 1: people by autopsy reports and they try to get crime
19:43
Speaker 1: scene just horrible, horrible stuff. And by the time I
19:47
Speaker 1: finished that book, I threw away the laptop. The laptop had,
19:53
Speaker 1: I know, it sounds crazy, the laptop had researched so
19:57
Speaker 1: many horrible, horrible things to write that book about what
20:02
Speaker 1: people do. I couldn't even stand to put my fingertips
20:05
Speaker 1: on it again. I just I just couldn't, and I
20:08
Speaker 1: threw it away. I ran out and got another three
20:11
Speaker 1: hundred dollar. Look, but what I'm saying is it, just
20:14
Speaker 1: I don't blame him about not wanting to describe it again. Right.
20:18
Speaker 1: Let me first say this about Detective Tom Fastbender. I
20:21
Speaker 1: met him at Crime Con. He changed my mind. I
20:24
Speaker 1: watched that whole Netflix series. I think I thought, oh,
20:26
Speaker 1: free Steve Avery, get him a new trial. And then
20:29
Speaker 1: I sat and we talked with Tom Fassbender, the detective.
20:34
Speaker 1: I came away with a different opinion. And uh, I
20:37
Speaker 1: really respect you, know Alan, I'm embarrassed for you, okay,
20:40
Speaker 1: because you clearly don't have the wherewithal to know you
20:43
Speaker 1: should be embarrassed. But um, I get it. Okay. A
20:46
Speaker 1: lot of people have watched it and believed it. But
20:49
Speaker 1: I guess I'm wrong in saying that because I was
20:53
Speaker 1: on the case at the beginning, not to the degree
20:56
Speaker 1: of course Tom was, but covering it as a missing
20:59
Speaker 1: person because something about Teresa Hallback caught my attention and
21:02
Speaker 1: when I saw a picture and then we interviewed. I
21:04
Speaker 1: interviewed Avery and he lied about that evening he did
21:10
Speaker 1: Star sixty seven. I think is the one you used
21:12
Speaker 1: to hide your identity when you make a phone call
21:15
Speaker 1: and tried to call her and uh, waiting for her
21:19
Speaker 1: to get there and then after she's dead, he then
21:23
Speaker 1: calls her with his with caller I D calls on
21:26
Speaker 1: her phone so people can know he called, and you
21:29
Speaker 1: know it's five thirty of your sis. He goes, hey,
21:31
Speaker 1: what happened? You never showed up? He left that message.
21:35
Speaker 1: But to me he said, she never came. And wait, wait, wait,
21:39
Speaker 1: what did he say that she came and she left?
21:43
Speaker 1: That was his story. She came, she took the pictures,
21:45
Speaker 1: and she left. But he's leaving her the message, which
21:49
Speaker 1: is caught on audio, Hey where are you? He never came?
21:52
Speaker 1: So why the two different stories? Time fast bender? Why
21:55
Speaker 1: lie to me on national TV about what happened? Well? Exactly. Stephen,
21:59
Speaker 1: through out his accounts, especially early on in the case,
22:02
Speaker 1: had varying accounts of what happened. Now the call he
22:06
Speaker 1: made after she allegedly left for his rendition, he actually
22:11
Speaker 1: didn't even message, but he did make the call. Didn't
22:14
Speaker 1: hide his idea, and that was his ali by a
22:15
Speaker 1: call because he told us that she had left and
22:18
Speaker 1: he was going to call her back. But early on
22:21
Speaker 1: he had told the auto trader that she never showed up.
22:24
Speaker 1: Then it changed too, she showed up, but I didn't
22:26
Speaker 1: come out. I saw taking pictures. Then it changed who
22:28
Speaker 1: I did come out and she actually came into my house.
22:31
Speaker 1: So his his stories changed. Your stories shouldn't have to
22:34
Speaker 1: change if it's the truth, and if nothing happened, there's
22:38
Speaker 1: there's no reason for that to occur. So you're right
22:41
Speaker 1: on the on the change. I think I remember this, Tom,
22:44
Speaker 1: I think I remember this as well, and I'm gonna
22:46
Speaker 1: have to Alan pulled the transcript for me on what
22:50
Speaker 1: he said on ALN But I recall quizzing him. I
22:55
Speaker 1: went easy on him at first, but then I started
22:57
Speaker 1: quizzing him because he told me Tom that he was
23:00
Speaker 1: there the whole day and that he never saw her
23:04
Speaker 1: car come by and go anywhere. And then I started
23:08
Speaker 1: quizzing him because of course her car was found at
23:10
Speaker 1: the back at the back of his property. He said,
23:14
Speaker 1: where's your office that you were sitting in, and he
23:16
Speaker 1: told me he goes. He said, I've got a window
23:18
Speaker 1: looks right out and said, so you could see for
23:20
Speaker 1: sure anybody that came in or out. He went yeah,
23:24
Speaker 1: And then how did her car get secretly put there
23:27
Speaker 1: by police? Well, he's sitting there and he never saw it,
23:32
Speaker 1: and well, what is his kookie theory? About this was
23:34
Speaker 1: all trumped up by police. Tom, that police what killed
23:37
Speaker 1: her and planted her body there? I mean, who does
23:39
Speaker 1: he say killed her? Well, ultimately I know that you
23:42
Speaker 1: gus said police did it and police framed him. The
23:44
Speaker 1: defense was that it was planted and that hected the
23:48
Speaker 1: police framed him. And I mean there's another explanation other
23:52
Speaker 1: than the police did it. Now, there's some theories, but
23:55
Speaker 1: the defense that you know, my boyfriend did it or
23:57
Speaker 1: someone else did it floating around there because they have
23:59
Speaker 1: to keep uspen at these straws. Well, that didn't work.
24:02
Speaker 1: Let's try this. Well, that didn't work. Let's try this,
24:04
Speaker 1: and it gets the point of ridiculousness. The evidence speaks
24:08
Speaker 1: for itself. Stephen a re abductive and killed Teresa Hallback
24:11
Speaker 1: and uh far this to continue to go on is
24:14
Speaker 1: such a travish in our front of the hall Black
24:16
Speaker 1: family and and the true victims in this case. You know,
24:20
Speaker 1: it's interesting, Tom, and I'm going to come back to
24:22
Speaker 1: County School. Nick veteran trial lawyer out of it New York,
24:26
Speaker 1: joining us today. You know what's funny? That funny odd
24:31
Speaker 1: people have hunches, and I've always said they're not imaginary.
24:37
Speaker 1: They're not without um merit. Hunches are something that is
24:46
Speaker 1: ingrained in us. It's from thousands and thousands of years
24:49
Speaker 1: of existence. You get a feeling. It may be something
24:53
Speaker 1: you see or you smell, or you hear, or you
24:56
Speaker 1: recall something subtle that you can't put your and you're on.
25:01
Speaker 1: But it's real hunches, a real Teresa haulback how to hunch?
25:07
Speaker 1: She did not want to go back to Steve and
25:10
Speaker 1: Avery's to take those pictures that day. She did not
25:13
Speaker 1: want to go back. She went back because it was
25:17
Speaker 1: her job. She has never seen alive again. Question do
25:24
Speaker 1: you hunter? Although the judge has now ruled he will
25:28
Speaker 1: not get emotional, he won't not get a new trial,
25:31
Speaker 1: That's not the end of it. The Making a Murderer
25:34
Speaker 1: Star Stephen Avery could still get a new trial. How
25:40
Speaker 1: absolutely well we know that there's there is an agreement
25:44
Speaker 1: between the Wisconsin Attorney General as I understand it, and
25:47
Speaker 1: Avery's attorneys for additional testing UM forensic testing UH, and
25:54
Speaker 1: they plan on on proceeding down that that path and
25:57
Speaker 1: also UM based on that agreement, seeking to obtain new
26:03
Speaker 1: evidence and and and if something comes from that additional testing,
26:07
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna you're gonna see another petition before
26:09
Speaker 1: the judge, um and and and an argument that a
26:12
Speaker 1: new trial should should go forward. Yeah. The one thing
26:16
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree is that this was
26:18
Speaker 1: a horrific murder. There's no question, and I don't think
26:21
Speaker 1: anyone's contesting that she went through a horror beyond imagination.
26:26
Speaker 1: I think we have to also look at the fact
26:28
Speaker 1: that there is going to be additional testing being done
26:32
Speaker 1: at this time, scientific testing which was agreed to as
26:36
Speaker 1: I understand it, between the Attorney General uh and and
26:39
Speaker 1: defense counsel. So you know there's something here. Um, the
26:43
Speaker 1: question is what is it? And did the did the
26:46
Speaker 1: investigating officers and time? I'm you know, with all all
26:49
Speaker 1: the respect to everyone, I know you guys do a
26:51
Speaker 1: uh you want to take a very tough job. Um.
26:55
Speaker 1: The boyfriend has to be looked at closely. They have
26:59
Speaker 1: a lot of issues here. As his lawyer states, quote,
27:02
Speaker 1: the bottom line is neither we nor avery have any
27:05
Speaker 1: intention of giving up and not proceeding. He is absolutely innocent.
27:12
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know how his lawyers can do it,
27:15
Speaker 1: but they are doing it well. You know, look at
27:19
Speaker 1: look at it from a different stance at standpoint, this
27:21
Speaker 1: is a man who spent fifteen years in jail, wrongly
27:24
Speaker 1: convicted and only exonerated based upon DNA evidence. UM. He
27:29
Speaker 1: could have given up in that case as well, and
27:31
Speaker 1: he has every right to to to pursue additional scientific testing,
27:36
Speaker 1: additional forensic testing, irrespective of all the evidence that is
27:39
Speaker 1: there right now. UM. I understand there was blood found.
27:42
Speaker 1: I understand there's evidence, forensic evidence, um. But there was
27:47
Speaker 1: also some questionable conduct with respect to the nephew's interrogation
27:53
Speaker 1: that deals with the nephew's case. That deals with the
27:56
Speaker 1: nephew's case, not stephen A. But I understand. But it
27:59
Speaker 1: was the same team investigating the whole case. Okay, I
28:02
Speaker 1: hear you. I hear you. That can't be attained. Is
28:05
Speaker 1: really is really, That's just what it is. It's a
28:08
Speaker 1: suggestion by you and the defense lawyers. And I understand
28:12
Speaker 1: the suggestion. I disagree with it because Brendan Dacy outright
28:17
Speaker 1: said he raped Teresa Hallback. I've never thought he killed her.
28:22
Speaker 1: I thought he was there when she was killed. That's
28:25
Speaker 1: what he said. As a matter of fact. Take a
28:28
Speaker 1: listen to the nephew. Brendan Dacy as he says he
28:34
Speaker 1: quote had sex with Teresa hallback. Of course she was
28:37
Speaker 1: chained to a bed at the time. But listen to this.
28:40
Speaker 1: He's gonna revision one thing. When you're in the bedroom
28:43
Speaker 1: and and you cut her throat. Previously you said that
28:48
Speaker 1: even thought she was alive. Is that still your thought
28:52
Speaker 1: on that? And why was that? Because she was preating
28:56
Speaker 1: a little bit usly China, I'm not trying to breathe this.
29:01
Speaker 1: How does she got I'm screaming up, screaming a lot.
29:06
Speaker 1: She was screaming a lot, or wasn't she was when
29:10
Speaker 1: you cut her throat? Was she screaming when you cut
29:15
Speaker 1: her killed? Because when you're screaming a lot, you're like
29:17
Speaker 1: your breathing goes off. Her song explained as a little bit.
29:21
Speaker 1: You said she was screaming up. When was she screaming
29:23
Speaker 1: up like while you were doing it, after you did it,
29:28
Speaker 1: before you did it before when you cut her throat,
29:35
Speaker 1: What was she doing if anything, like screaming for help
29:41
Speaker 1: and crying. I want to I want to get that straight.
29:46
Speaker 1: She was screaming for help and crying when you cut
29:48
Speaker 1: her throat? Yeah, when did Stephen Choker or strangler like
29:56
Speaker 1: a little bit after. Well, let's let's just go back
30:01
Speaker 1: a little bit. Okay, tell us what exactly happened to her?
30:04
Speaker 1: What order had happened? He said, they were basically three
30:08
Speaker 1: things prior to you guys shooting her. Explain those in
30:11
Speaker 1: the order that happened. Starting less, well, I got in. Yeah,
30:19
Speaker 1: what what you guys did to her? It's sexy? Then
30:27
Speaker 1: he stabbed her? And who stabbed her? He did? Who's he? Okay?
30:33
Speaker 1: And then what and I can spell it? Okay? And
30:40
Speaker 1: he talked to an eco her hair Okay, So he
30:45
Speaker 1: choked her after you cut her throat. Now, also listen
30:49
Speaker 1: to what was said on HLLN when I spoke to
30:53
Speaker 1: Stephen Aver. He lied right to my face, Steve, and
30:56
Speaker 1: I understand that Teresa came to your auto salvage lot
31:01
Speaker 1: to take photos for the Auto Trader. Correct, Yes, she did.
31:05
Speaker 1: She came down by me. Okay. And Stephen, is my
31:08
Speaker 1: understanding that also you say that you saw her car leave? Yes,
31:12
Speaker 1: I did, about what time between she was there between
31:15
Speaker 1: two and two thirty two in the afternoon. Okay, Stephen,
31:19
Speaker 1: how is it that her car could get all the
31:22
Speaker 1: way back in this pit area where there is uh, well,
31:26
Speaker 1: I believe we're showing it right now. I mean, wouldn't
31:30
Speaker 1: you have to pass back by the office again? Well,
31:33
Speaker 1: on the on the outstart top the office ottawise, backed
31:37
Speaker 1: by me or back by Dan's pitt in the corner
31:40
Speaker 1: is all open. It's all open so you can drive
31:44
Speaker 1: in there, Mr Avery. Did you see anyone else come in?
31:49
Speaker 1: Anyone unusual that didn't belong there? Well, during the night,
31:53
Speaker 1: me and my brother had to go to pick up
31:55
Speaker 1: some motel with the pride bed and I've seen tail
31:58
Speaker 1: lights backed by me. Wasn't supposed to be. But we
32:02
Speaker 1: turned around and we went back there on the side
32:06
Speaker 1: and I took the flat flight of flat bed and
32:09
Speaker 1: I looked around by me and behind me, but I
32:11
Speaker 1: didn't see that. To Lee Egan, Crime Online investigative reporter,
32:16
Speaker 1: renowned defense attorney out of New York Huntry School, Nick,
32:20
Speaker 1: and of course to Detective Tom Fastbender, lead investigator on
32:24
Speaker 1: the Avery case, thank you. A gorgeous twenty year old
32:29
Speaker 1: woman is missing. There's a five thousand dollar reward and
32:33
Speaker 1: catch this. The missing woman is from the same North
32:37
Speaker 1: Carolina town as three other women who vanished and were
32:42
Speaker 1: later found dead. I'm talking about Abbey Lynn Patterson, and
32:49
Speaker 1: as we go to sirious today, another woman a shanty
32:53
Speaker 1: Billy also making headlines with me right now, Bobby Maxwell,
32:59
Speaker 1: Crime Stories, investigative reporter, Cheryl McCullum, Director of the Cold
33:03
Speaker 1: Case Institute, and Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, joining us out
33:08
Speaker 1: of l A along with Alan Duke. The Duke also
33:12
Speaker 1: in l A. First to you, Bobby Maxwell, thank you
33:15
Speaker 1: for being with us. I want to talk first about
33:17
Speaker 1: Abby Lynn Patterson. What do we know about her disappearance?
33:21
Speaker 1: Abby actually disappeared on September five from her hometown of Lumberton,
33:25
Speaker 1: North Carolina. She had been previously living in Jacksonville, Florida
33:29
Speaker 1: for a few years, so recently had come back and
33:32
Speaker 1: um had a good connection with her mom, a good relationship.
33:35
Speaker 1: Said she was stepping out, she'd be back in an hour.
33:37
Speaker 1: That hour went up, the mother didn't see her, and
33:40
Speaker 1: she's been missing ever since. And once again, that was
33:43
Speaker 1: since September five in Lumberton. In Lumberton, police say that
33:47
Speaker 1: Abby Patterson was last seeing getting into a brown buick. Okay,
33:52
Speaker 1: she sends five seven brown here, brown eyes. She's got
33:57
Speaker 1: a birthmore on the back of her left sigh. She
34:00
Speaker 1: was wearing brown shorts and a white shirt when she
34:03
Speaker 1: was last seen, says she'll be gone for an hour,
34:07
Speaker 1: never returns. Mom repeatedly, over and over and overcalls her
34:11
Speaker 1: cell phone, which then goes straight to voicemail. Now, Cheryl McCollum,
34:17
Speaker 1: you're the director of the Cold Case Institute. When a
34:20
Speaker 1: phone goes directly to a voicemail, no ring, no nothing,
34:24
Speaker 1: It just goes to voicemail, what does that mean? What
34:26
Speaker 1: are the choices? Well, the batteries either dead, somebody destroyed
34:30
Speaker 1: the phone, or somebody deliberately hit in the call. So me,
34:34
Speaker 1: the key here is that brown viewing. She willingly got
34:38
Speaker 1: in the car. So whoever that driver is is where
34:41
Speaker 1: we start. That's where we start. For all I know
34:44
Speaker 1: that was a ride to Target or to Walmart, although
34:48
Speaker 1: I want to speak to the person in the brown
34:50
Speaker 1: buick to find out where her next location was. On
34:53
Speaker 1: her case, her missing person's case, the number tipline zero
34:59
Speaker 1: six seven won three eight four five zero six seven
35:04
Speaker 1: one three eight four five. She goes missing right there
35:08
Speaker 1: on East ninth Street, eleven thirty a m. On a
35:12
Speaker 1: Tuesday morning. After one hour, she tells her mom she's
35:17
Speaker 1: gonna be back in one hour. Her mother calls her
35:20
Speaker 1: in one hour, And in one hour, Cheryl McCollum, her
35:24
Speaker 1: phone was already going directly to voicemail. Whatever was going
35:27
Speaker 1: to happen had happened. I think within that one hour,
35:31
Speaker 1: no question. And Nancy, it's going to be imperative that
35:33
Speaker 1: law enforced me. Get on her social media. Look at
35:36
Speaker 1: anybody that she you know, it's gonna take message to
35:38
Speaker 1: or received the text message from. She went to meet someone,
35:42
Speaker 1: No question about it. So again nine three Brown view it.
35:48
Speaker 1: That is your whole money tree right there. Okay, let's
35:51
Speaker 1: move forward to another woman missing, Ashanti Billy Bobby Maxwell,
35:58
Speaker 1: Crime Stories, Investigate reporter, what can you tell me about Ashanti?
36:02
Speaker 1: Ashanti is a nineteen year old originally from Maryland, Nancy,
36:06
Speaker 1: and she was going to school in Virginia as a
36:09
Speaker 1: culinary school there and Um actually worked for a blimpy
36:13
Speaker 1: restaurant on a military base in that area as well.
36:17
Speaker 1: She was expected in to work on September. The last
36:22
Speaker 1: they saw of her was in her car through security
36:25
Speaker 1: going into that military base, and reports are that she
36:29
Speaker 1: was her car was seeing They couldn't tell if she
36:31
Speaker 1: was in it, leaving a short time after that. She
36:33
Speaker 1: never did show up at the workplace. And um, the
36:37
Speaker 1: FBI was brought into the case because it was on
36:40
Speaker 1: a military base. And sadly, she was found just recently
36:44
Speaker 1: her body in Charlotte, North Carolina, over three hundred miles away.
36:48
Speaker 1: Billy's body was found behind a church in Charlotte, North Carolina,
36:52
Speaker 1: as Bobby Maxwell just reported, over three hundred miles away
36:57
Speaker 1: from where she was last seen in Norfolk. Why why,
37:02
Speaker 1: her family says, quote to the person or persons that
37:06
Speaker 1: decided they wanted to take our baby away from us
37:09
Speaker 1: and away from everyone that loved her, you are a coward.
37:14
Speaker 1: That's what Billy's mother, Brandy said. Everyone. Please, I'm begging
37:20
Speaker 1: everybody please pray for my baby. Please please prey for
37:30
Speaker 1: Shinty Billy, my baby, She's not everything. Please pray for
37:35
Speaker 1: my baby home today. Everyone, please share anyone you know
37:41
Speaker 1: help me bring my baby a shanty hole. Please. It's
37:46
Speaker 1: just I'm just thinking about why they're saying, Sheryl McCollum
37:50
Speaker 1: that they cannot see whether she is the one driving
37:53
Speaker 1: her car out on that surveillance video. I mean, come on,
37:57
Speaker 1: we can figure we can see a rock on the
38:00
Speaker 1: un an individual rock. We can see a footprint on
38:04
Speaker 1: the moon, but we can't figure out who's driving the
38:06
Speaker 1: car face backwards to get the last tag. But Nancy,
38:09
Speaker 1: the thing is she was found three miles away. But
38:13
Speaker 1: that's six hours driving time. That's an awful long way
38:17
Speaker 1: for a stranger to drive a kidnap victim. So this
38:21
Speaker 1: has a deal of it is being somewhat domestic, and
38:25
Speaker 1: I been looking at a boyfriend or ex boyfriend. Investigators
38:28
Speaker 1: find her cell phone that day in a Norfolk dumpster.
38:33
Speaker 1: They later find her car abandoned. Okay, so somebody else
38:38
Speaker 1: was driving that car and somebody got rid of her
38:41
Speaker 1: cell phone right there on the spot. An intense search
38:45
Speaker 1: for the teen girl ensued, and Billy's family forming a
38:49
Speaker 1: search party to look for her, sending out flyers the works,
38:53
Speaker 1: begging for help on Facebook. I'm looking at her picture
38:57
Speaker 1: right now. She's absolutely beautiful. That day, she was scheduled
39:00
Speaker 1: to show up at her job at a sandwich shop
39:03
Speaker 1: at the Joint Expeditiary Base that's Little Creek at five
39:08
Speaker 1: a m that Monday morning. She was a student at
39:12
Speaker 1: the Art Institute of Virginia Beach. Last scene heading to work.
39:16
Speaker 1: She never arrived. It's amazing to me that they haven't
39:21
Speaker 1: found any DNA, or have they, Bobby Max Well, I mean,
39:24
Speaker 1: we've got the car as most likely as secondary or
39:28
Speaker 1: maybe even a primary crime scene. You have her body
39:31
Speaker 1: now recovered dumped behind a church. It's very hard for
39:36
Speaker 1: me to believe there's not any DNA. Obviously, Nancy, no
39:39
Speaker 1: struggle on the base or or any kind of DNA
39:42
Speaker 1: was showed around her workplace. And by the way, the
39:44
Speaker 1: boyfriend does have an alabat. He was in training at
39:48
Speaker 1: a military base in South Carolina, so he has been
39:50
Speaker 1: ruled out. Um, but no DNA. And like you said,
39:54
Speaker 1: a long long way to drive with someone who's fighting
39:57
Speaker 1: to escape. If she's alive, if she's a life, a
40:01
Speaker 1: sex assault and a murder could have taken place right there.
40:05
Speaker 1: She was getting out of the car at five am
40:07
Speaker 1: in the morning or earlier in the dark hour. She's
40:09
Speaker 1: on a military base back in that car, and it
40:13
Speaker 1: was just a matter of putting her in the trunk
40:15
Speaker 1: and driving her to a dump site. Now, what do
40:19
Speaker 1: we know, Sheryl McCollum about where her body was done
40:22
Speaker 1: behind that church at Charlotte right A landscape employee found
40:26
Speaker 1: her body behind the A. M. E. Zion Church. UM,
40:30
Speaker 1: not covered, not a shallow gray, just out in the open.
40:34
Speaker 1: And again, Nancy, I'm going to tell you, that's an
40:36
Speaker 1: awful long way for a stranger to take somebody. And
40:40
Speaker 1: usually people tend to go places they know, So again
40:44
Speaker 1: I would look for people that knew that area and
40:46
Speaker 1: possibly even knew that church. You're right about that was
40:50
Speaker 1: she clothed? Do we know that? Bobby Maxwell? Don't have
40:52
Speaker 1: any information on whether she was clothed or not. Um No,
40:56
Speaker 1: no word on any kind of assault or anything of
40:59
Speaker 1: that matter. You know, was hard to believe, Sheryl McColl
41:01
Speaker 1: I'm talking about you can't figure out who was driving
41:03
Speaker 1: the car on surveillance video. You remember the killer clown case.
41:07
Speaker 1: We were talking about a twenty seven year old murder
41:10
Speaker 1: where a female dressed as a clown shows up at
41:13
Speaker 1: a woman's door and with balloons and flowers, and when
41:16
Speaker 1: she answers the door, shoots her in the face dead.
41:19
Speaker 1: Twenty seven years pass and suddenly with advances in DNA technique,
41:26
Speaker 1: they can determine who shot her according to DNA, And
41:31
Speaker 1: we don't know about any DNA on this girl's body.
41:34
Speaker 1: Why why is that? Maybe they're not releasing it yet, Nancy,
41:37
Speaker 1: because they haven't released the cause of death either, And
41:39
Speaker 1: that's probably not a bad idea with an open investigation
41:41
Speaker 1: like this. But there's also a chance they could get
41:44
Speaker 1: a latent print off the cell phone whoever threw that
41:46
Speaker 1: cellphone in the dumpster, they could get a decent print
41:48
Speaker 1: off that, or if they even were stupid enough to
41:51
Speaker 1: use the cell phone, or prints on the car, around
41:54
Speaker 1: the trunk, on the handle, around the ignition. Remember in
41:58
Speaker 1: the terse in this Stephen Avery case, there's victim Teresa Hallback.
42:02
Speaker 1: There was DNA on the ignition, the ignition Cheryl McCullum
42:07
Speaker 1: where he's hunched over trying to start Tersa Hallback's car.
42:11
Speaker 1: He left DNA there, exactly, You can't leave. Yeah, he
42:15
Speaker 1: clearly used her vehicle. She didn't did her own car.
42:18
Speaker 1: So as he used her car to transport her, which
42:21
Speaker 1: is possible, it leads a short distance. And he had
42:24
Speaker 1: to touch the trunk to Saren will the rear view, Mira,
42:27
Speaker 1: the gearshift. He touched a lot of things to Dr
42:29
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall way in you know, this was a military
42:33
Speaker 1: base with a lot of men. And when you told
42:36
Speaker 1: me that the restaurant where she was working was located
42:39
Speaker 1: on the military basis, beautiful twenty year old art student,
42:44
Speaker 1: I just got a chill up my spine. I mean,
42:46
Speaker 1: I just thought, from parents perspective, how vulnerable she was
42:51
Speaker 1: working there, and what I would want to know, since
42:54
Speaker 1: there seems to be perhaps some familiarity between her and
42:57
Speaker 1: the abductor, who was going in and out of that restaurant.
43:01
Speaker 1: I would want to look at all the receipts. I
43:03
Speaker 1: would want to look at who was frequenting the restaurant.
43:06
Speaker 1: I would want to look at her cell phone to see,
43:09
Speaker 1: you know, who was texting, who was calling, look on
43:11
Speaker 1: her social media because it seems to me, if there
43:14
Speaker 1: was some familiarity between her and the perpetrator, that somebody
43:18
Speaker 1: would have been grooming her, right, that somebody would have
43:21
Speaker 1: targeted her. She would have been on somebody's side, and um,
43:25
Speaker 1: so that the person would have gained her trust enough
43:29
Speaker 1: to have persuaded her to get in the car with them.
43:33
Speaker 1: So who could that person have been on this military base.
43:35
Speaker 1: It doesn't seem random, It doesn't seem like somebody just
43:38
Speaker 1: you know, nabbed her as she was going into work.
43:41
Speaker 1: It seems like she knew the perpetrator. You know. Lumberton
43:45
Speaker 1: investigators state that there are three other women who vanished
43:52
Speaker 1: from the very same town as Abby in separate incidents,
43:58
Speaker 1: and they were all discovered murdered slain within the last year.
44:04
Speaker 1: How can this not be connected, Bobby Maxwell, Yes, Nancy,
44:08
Speaker 1: and and not just the past year, but since April,
44:11
Speaker 1: within the same few blocks of each other. Christina Bennett
44:15
Speaker 1: thirty two, Rhonda Jones thirty six, they were found across
44:18
Speaker 1: the street from each other. And then in June another woman,
44:22
Speaker 1: Megan Oxendine, her body was found just three blocks from
44:25
Speaker 1: the original to Sheryl mccollumb, three women, Christina Bennett thirty two,
44:30
Speaker 1: Rhonda Jones thirty six, Megan oxen Dine, all vanished from
44:36
Speaker 1: the same town in separate incidents, all discovered slain in
44:40
Speaker 1: the same calendar year. Now I've got Abby missing from
44:46
Speaker 1: what a mile away. Maybe it sounds like it's strayed
44:50
Speaker 1: out of the two killer playbooks. I'm very concerned about
44:53
Speaker 1: her well being, obviously, but again she's probably going to
44:56
Speaker 1: be found within a mile of that area. You know,
45:01
Speaker 1: in this North Carolina town, family still looking for answers
45:05
Speaker 1: and the disappearance of three women were dashed, all their
45:10
Speaker 1: hopes dashed when the women were found slain. To Dr
45:14
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall, you know that Abby Lynn Patterson's family has
45:19
Speaker 1: got to be so distraught, wondering is she the fourth
45:23
Speaker 1: in a series where then you know a couple of
45:26
Speaker 1: miles from each other, You know, Nancy, They must be devastated.
45:29
Speaker 1: And the fact that her mother called her cell phone,
45:33
Speaker 1: it went straight to voicemail, and then her daughter was
45:37
Speaker 1: never seen or heard from again. Can you imagine from
45:40
Speaker 1: a mother's perspective what that must feel like. And when
45:43
Speaker 1: Sheryl McCollum said this is out of the serial killer playbook,
45:46
Speaker 1: the first thought that crossed my mind was, well that
45:49
Speaker 1: the serial killer, then the perpetrator likely did not know
45:53
Speaker 1: the victims, because we know serial killers do not groom
45:57
Speaker 1: their victims in the same way that the serial rape
46:00
Speaker 1: might say that somebody who might commit an abduction, rape,
46:04
Speaker 1: homicide might, you know, sort of in its incursory way
46:08
Speaker 1: know the victim. A serial killer will just drive through
46:11
Speaker 1: the streets, troll through the streets, and the looking process
46:15
Speaker 1: will be very satishized and very exciting. For them, and
46:18
Speaker 1: then they will pick a victim because that victim is
46:21
Speaker 1: appealing to them in some way. But the victim will
46:23
Speaker 1: most likely be a stranger, so be more difficult for
46:27
Speaker 1: the police to sift through the clues and find the
46:29
Speaker 1: perpetrator if he's a serial killer. And I'm worried about
46:32
Speaker 1: more women being at risk in this small town. You
46:35
Speaker 1: know another clue regarding her clothing. Right after Ashanti goes missing,
46:42
Speaker 1: I remember her body was found behind the church hundreds
46:46
Speaker 1: of miles away. A two hour search ensued in volunteers
46:50
Speaker 1: found a pink shoe and a sweatshirt. Okay, that's the
46:56
Speaker 1: girl where herself? I was found later that day in
46:58
Speaker 1: the dumpster three mile us away from the base, and
47:01
Speaker 1: neighbors spotted her car at a dead end road. Okay,
47:05
Speaker 1: so that was planted there on purpose. It had been
47:08
Speaker 1: there for several days. We'll listen to this, Uh, Cheryl
47:12
Speaker 1: mccollumb Cold Case Institute, what do you make of this?
47:15
Speaker 1: Then a volunteer found the other pink shoe near where
47:19
Speaker 1: her car was found. So one pink she found near
47:24
Speaker 1: where she goes missing, the other pink she found near
47:28
Speaker 1: where her car was found. So that tells me there
47:32
Speaker 1: was a mighty struggle, no question, Nancy. This this is
47:38
Speaker 1: the kind of thing where law enforcement those are easy
47:42
Speaker 1: not to connect, and it also gives law enforcement, you know,
47:46
Speaker 1: for bread comes to follow where the fight happened. She
47:50
Speaker 1: continue to fight. That may tell us she was still
47:52
Speaker 1: alive at that point. Or it could have been an
47:54
Speaker 1: issue of the purp throwing things away, because there's a sweatshirt,
47:58
Speaker 1: there is a tennisie here, a tennis shee you near
48:00
Speaker 1: her car. There was a phone charger disposed of as well.
48:05
Speaker 1: It could have been somebody just throwing things out. But
48:06
Speaker 1: why would they bother to throw things out? They could
48:09
Speaker 1: just leave them in the car. So it seems to
48:11
Speaker 1: it bespeaks more of a struggle to me than anything else.
48:15
Speaker 1: So what we know is a shanty was found dead,
48:21
Speaker 1: the other women dead, some within blocks at each other,
48:26
Speaker 1: and now another girl, Abby Lynn Patterson, is missing. So
48:33
Speaker 1: what do we do now, Cheryl McCullum. Nancy, they're gonna
48:38
Speaker 1: have to just comb the area. Abby again, she's not
48:41
Speaker 1: gonna be far and I just do not think they're
48:43
Speaker 1: gonna find her alive, but she will be in that
48:45
Speaker 1: same vicinity. Cheryl McCullum directed with the Cold Case Institute
48:48
Speaker 1: with me Dr Bethany Marshall and Bobby Maxwell. Crime Stories
48:51
Speaker 1: contributing reporter Cheryl McCullum. This guy and the brown buick, Okay,
48:58
Speaker 1: we already know three women are dead within blocks of
49:03
Speaker 1: each other. Where do we go to find the driver
49:07
Speaker 1: of that Brown buick? Nazy under the quote you will
49:10
Speaker 1: be in you said a long time ago, Suan, don't
49:14
Speaker 1: swim in the sewer. We have got to go with
49:17
Speaker 1: this type of individual would go ceedy bars, back alley,
49:21
Speaker 1: the gutter. We literally have got to talk to drug dealers, pimps,
49:26
Speaker 1: and prostitute to find out who knows give perfect The
49:30
Speaker 1: search goes on for Abbey Lynn Patterson as well as
49:35
Speaker 1: for the killer of Ashanti Billy Nancy Grace Crime Stories
49:40
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