Latest / The Start, Scale & Succeed Podcast / Leading Executives Without Losing Yourself with Eric Nitzberg (stage 5) - Ep. 390

Transcript

Leading Executives Without Losing Yourself with Eric Nitzberg (stage 5) - Ep. 390 · The Start, Scale & Succeed Podcast

• 0:00
  Scott Ritzheimer: Hello, hello and welcome. Welcome once again
• 0:03
  to the start, scale and succeed podcast, the only podcast that
• 0:05
  grows with you through all seven stages of your journey. As a
• 0:09
  founder, I'm your host, Scott Ritzheimer, and there are many
• 0:13
  of you founders listening today who've hit a point where the
• 0:16
  skills that made you great are now actively working against
• 0:20
  you. If you're in that Chief Executive stage, you may have an
• 0:23
  idea of just what I'm talking about, because you've got the
• 0:25
  team, you've got the titles, but somehow you feel more exposed
• 0:28
  and less in control than ever, and it leaves you asking the
• 0:32
  question, Who am I? It probably, maybe even most definitely,
• 0:37
  we'll see here in just a moment. May leave you feeling like
• 0:40
  you're the only one in the world who struggles with imposter
• 0:43
  syndrome, if that's you, which is all of us, you are in for a
• 0:48
  treat today, because to help us navigate this whole space of
• 0:51
  being a CEO, an authentic CEO, at that is Eric Nitzberg, who's
• 0:56
  an executive coach and trusted advisor to CEOs And C suite
• 0:59
  leaders across fast growth sectors like technology,
• 1:02
  software and life sciences. He has two decades of experience
• 1:07
  guiding hundreds of high performing leaders through
• 1:09
  complex business challenges, personal growth and lasting
• 1:12
  transformation in one long standing engagement at a fortune
• 1:16
  100 global tech company. He's worked with more than 150
• 1:20
  leaders, including C level executives, VPS, GMs and heads
• 1:24
  of emerging business units. He previously served as a
• 1:27
  Communication Coach at Stanford Graduate School of Business,
• 1:30
  teaching executive presence and persuasive storytelling, and
• 1:34
  he's here with us today. Eric, welcome to the show. I'm so
• 1:37
  excited to have you here. One of the challenges that I see a lot
• 1:43
  is when folks from the outside look at senior executives and
• 1:48
  and there's kind of this impression that they've got it
• 1:51
  made like it's pretty good, but I have found that the truth
• 1:54
  behind the scenes can be a little bit different in two
• 1:56
  areas. The first one is the the in the room, you know there
• 2:02
  tends to it's not as easy to be an executive as one might think.
• 2:06
  And, and the other one is in the person inside an executive, it
• 2:10
  gets hard for a lot of reasons we're not expecting at this
• 2:13
  time. And, and so I'm wondering if you could just break those
• 2:17
  down for us and and explain what's going on in the room, and
• 2:21
  even more so, what's going on in the person?
• 2:23
  Eric Nitzberg: Yeah, thanks, Scott, and it's a pleasure to be
• 2:25
  on the show. Let me start with what's going on in the people,
• 2:28
  because I think that's what's probably surprising to many of
• 2:33
  your listeners, that the sense of imposter syndrome, self
• 2:39
  doubt. I'm not sure if I can do this, I'm not sure if I can
• 2:42
  succeed in this role. Is not something that is limited to
• 2:47
  folks who are earlier in their journey. It actually becomes
• 2:51
  even more common, I would say, as people become more senior. So
• 2:55
  I've worked with leaders, even who are leading really large
• 2:58
  teams, 1000s of people, where that's the thing they want to
• 3:01
  work on. You know, I seem to have lost my confidence, or, you
• 3:06
  know, I'm not sure who I am in this role. And so, yeah, it is
• 3:09
  pretty ubiquitous and very common. And I think it's
• 3:13
  important for folks at every stage of the journey to
• 3:17
  normalize that and recognize that they really aren't alone as
• 3:21
  far as what's happening in the room, I think that's a pretty
• 3:24
  that's a pretty broader question. And if you mean like,
• 3:26
  what's happening with the executive teams or the
• 3:28
  leadership teams, that's pretty case by case, I'll say the
• 3:33
  intensity level is really high the bigger the organization. I
• 3:38
  think there's a lot of complexity, especially in
• 3:40
  today's world that these teams are trying to navigate.
• 3:43
  Scott Ritzheimer: I think one of the challenges for folks who
• 3:45
  have not been executives is it's easy to think of that as an easy
• 3:51
  job. It's easy to think of it as, you know, not doing the real
• 3:56
  work. And I think part of the if we can tie these together, part
• 4:00
  of the imposter syndrome that I see is folks that are executives
• 4:04
  feeling like they aren't doing real work anymore because it
• 4:08
  looks so different. So what is it about the nature of the work
• 4:12
  that makes imposter syndrome really start to poke its head in
• 4:15
  such a significant way at this level?
• 4:17
  Eric Nitzberg: Well, I think there's a couple of issues there
• 4:20
  on the question of of you know, they feel like they're not doing
• 4:23
  real work anymore. I think that is unique to a particular
• 4:27
  transition from a stage where you are hands on doing more work
• 4:33
  yourself, to a stage which I think you're calling the chief
• 4:36
  executive stage in your model, where there's really other
• 4:39
  people who are doing a lot of the work, and even could be
• 4:43
  doing a lot of the leadership, if your organization is big
• 4:45
  enough. And then the question arises, especially when you're
• 4:49
  new to that, well, what am I supposed to do? Like, what's
• 4:52
  left for me to do? And in fact, all the strategic thinking, the
• 4:56
  long term planning, the managing of the team, the. Bringing on
• 5:00
  new talent, like there's a whole different set of tasks, and that
• 5:04
  is now your real job. I remember once working with a leader who
• 5:09
  was new to management, and he said, Gosh, I feel like I'm not
• 5:14
  doing real work anymore. And so we took a whiteboard and drew a
• 5:18
  line across it, and on the bottom we wrote down all the
• 5:21
  things he used to do. And then on the top, we wrote down all
• 5:24
  the managerial tasks, you know, hiring, meetings, managing,
• 5:28
  leading, and I said to him, Look everything on the top of that
• 5:33
  line, that's real work like that is your job now, and it just
• 5:37
  takes a while to grow into that. As far as the question about
• 5:41
  what, what really provokes more imposter syndrome at these more
• 5:44
  senior levels, I think imposter syndrome is a normal reaction to
• 5:50
  a higher level of higher degree of challenge. So if, if any of
• 5:54
  your listeners are experiencing self doubt right now, I would, I
• 5:58
  would ask them, When is the last time that you felt confident?
• 6:03
  And if you think about it, you probably are not that different
• 6:06
  of a person now than you were then. What's changed is your
• 6:10
  context. You're now trying to do something that's much harder for
• 6:13
  something that you've never done before. And it's that kind of
• 6:17
  face to face experience with challenge that brings up these
• 6:20
  imposter feelings. Yeah, and by the way, I would just add
• 6:23
  imposter syndrome and self doubt has been shown. There is some
• 6:27
  MIT studies last year to actually increase performance.
• 6:31
  So it's not necessarily a bad thing. It's just uncomfortable.
• 6:35
  Scott Ritzheimer: Wow, that's fascinating. I didn't know that
• 6:37
  I want to explore this, because we've got a lot of folks who are
• 6:41
  founder, CEOs, who started this thing from their basement,
• 6:44
  either literal or proverbial, and have grown it up. And one of
• 6:50
  the things that I find, particularly for founders, that
• 6:52
  contributes to this is in this CEO stage, because there's so
• 6:56
  much of the business or nonprofit that's happening away
• 7:00
  from your hands, right? Not only are you not doing it, but like
• 7:03
  you said, someone else is leading the person who's doing
• 7:05
  it, and that disconnect can start to feel like I'm not as
• 7:10
  critical to my organization as I thought I was right. I'm not as
• 7:14
  essential as I thought I was. And there's almost this
• 7:18
  splitting that happens where I am not my organization anymore.
• 7:22
  Have you seen that? Do you find that in the the founders that
• 7:26
  you work with? And if so, how do you help them walk, walk through
• 7:29
  it?
• 7:29
  Eric Nitzberg: Yeah, I think that is a common experience. And
• 7:32
  I can, I can think of a conversation actually, you
• 7:34
  mentioned nonprofits with a nonprofit leader that I had not
• 7:39
  long ago that felt just like that, because the organization
• 7:41
  has grown to that stage where this person is really not needed
• 7:46
  in the day to day, or even in a lot of the leadership. And this
• 7:49
  is exactly, this is exactly some of the feeling like, maybe I'm
• 7:51
  not that important anymore. But what I would say to those
• 7:55
  people, and the way that I would help them work through it, is,
• 7:59
  you don't realize how critical your role has become. It's just
• 8:04
  that you're operating in a different sphere. So somebody
• 8:07
  has to be thinking about the long term vision for the
• 8:10
  organization. Where are we actually going? Where do we want
• 8:13
  to be in three to five years, or even 10 years? What is, what is
• 8:18
  the mission? What is the culture that we need? Who are the people
• 8:22
  that we need on the leadership team that are really like the
• 8:25
  best possible people, the highest quality talent to lead
• 8:29
  each of these functions, these are all part of the remit of the
• 8:33
  CEO, and nobody else can do that. And so I think a good way
• 8:38
  to think about your role is, even if you're relatively new to
• 8:42
  it, what are the things now that only I can do and no one else
• 8:46
  can do those things? I know that's kind of a common framing,
• 8:49
  but I think it's really helpful. If you think about it, the
• 8:52
  people that are under you, if you're leading your
• 8:54
  organization, probably none of them has the perspective that
• 8:58
  you have and and you know, they could grow into your role, but
• 9:02
  they couldn't do your role right now.
• 9:04
  Scott Ritzheimer: That's so good. I want to one of the
• 9:12
  things that I noticed as I was getting ready for this episode,
• 9:12
  something that I think is true of the folks that you work with
• 9:12
  and of our audience in general, is that being an authentic
• 9:17
  leader, like showing up as the whole version of themselves as
• 9:20
  something that's really important for folks that are
• 9:23
  listening today. One of the things, and I don't remember
• 9:26
  where I read it, and forgive me if I'm butchering it, but one of
• 9:29
  the things that caught my eye as I was getting ready for the
• 9:31
  episode is this idea of being both fully authentic and being
• 9:34
  fully strategic. And so I'm wondering, what does that look
• 9:39
  like for someone who's not trying to become a politician
• 9:42
  but just wants to lead well.
• 9:44
  Eric Nitzberg: Yeah, this is one of my more favorite topics,
• 9:47
  because it is kind of a nuanced one. I think being fully
• 9:52
  authentic means that you're not putting on a mask, you're not
• 9:56
  putting on a show your personality. Reality as it shows
• 10:01
  up with people that you're close to and that you know, know you
• 10:04
  well, is similar to the personality that shows up at
• 10:07
  work, but when I say also fully strategic, I think that really
• 10:13
  sophisticated, high level communicators are aware that in
• 10:18
  any situation, they need to be mindful of who their audience is
• 10:21
  that they're communicating with, and what's the purpose of this
• 10:25
  individual communication that they're having, and to really
• 10:28
  think through okay, given that what, what is the messaging, or
• 10:32
  what is the approach that's going to help me achieve my
• 10:34
  goals here? So you can do that while retaining who you are. You
• 10:38
  can do that while retaining your personality, I think, at a at a
• 10:42
  lower, less sophisticated level, somebody could come off as
• 10:46
  plastic or fake because they're just trying to get what they
• 10:48
  want, you know, and they're faking something. Or, you know,
• 10:51
  people see will see through that, and they won't respond
• 10:54
  well to that. But if your intentions are positive for you
• 10:58
  and for whoever you're talking to, whether it's one person or
• 11:01
  your whole organization, then I think you have the freedom to do
• 11:05
  both, to both be your authentic self and to think strategically
• 11:10
  about the communication at hand.
• 11:12
  Scott Ritzheimer: Yeah, I love breaking it down that way,
• 11:14
  especially around the idea of being strategic in
• 11:17
  communication. One of the phrases I use a lot with, with
• 11:21
  the folks I'm working with, is to learn to speak the language
• 11:25
  of your audience. And at the CEO stage, this is so important,
• 11:28
  like, I don't know a lick of Spanish. And so if I were, you
• 11:32
  know, overseas in South America, some beautiful place, trying to
• 11:36
  teach anybody anything, it wouldn't go real well unless
• 11:38
  they knew English. But it could go a lot better if I could have
• 11:41
  that interpreted, or, even better yet, if I could speak it.
• 11:44
  So recognizing that that doesn't change who I am, it changes the
• 11:48
  effectiveness of my communication. So I love how you
• 11:51
  differentiated that and and at this stage, maybe you can speak
• 11:56
  to this it becomes so important, because you are speaking so many
• 12:01
  languages, right? You have to be able to connect with frontline
• 12:04
  employees still as their leader. You have to be able to connect
• 12:07
  with executives. You have to be able to connect with outside
• 12:10
  stakeholders. And so if you don't, if you can't separate it,
• 12:13
  it feels like you are having like split personality
• 12:16
  disorders. So how do you help folks to recognize these
• 12:21
  different languages and speak to those without losing themselves.
• 12:25
  Eric Nitzberg: Yeah, I love all of that. I love the foreign
• 12:27
  language analogy. I think that is so spot on to what we're
• 12:31
  talking about. The way that I think of communication is it's
• 12:35
  it's like you have a communication toolbox, and we're
• 12:40
  all born with a certain set of tools, our natural personality,
• 12:44
  our natural communication style. To use your analogy, like I grow
• 12:49
  speaking English, so that would be in my communication toolbox.
• 12:54
  And I think what happens as you become more senior and more
• 12:57
  sophisticated and you're leading more people, it's not that you
• 13:00
  ever need to remove any of your tools from your toolbox. So
• 13:04
  let's say your communication style is you're really direct,
• 13:07
  you're blunt, you're a straight shooter, you're super candid.
• 13:09
  Maybe that's one of the big tools you've got a hammer in
• 13:12
  your toolbox. But as you grow you may need to add some other
• 13:16
  tools. You may need to learn to be more indirect in some
• 13:19
  situations. You may need to learn to be a better listener in
• 13:22
  some situations, or more nuanced in what you're saying, or adapt
• 13:26
  what you're saying for the particular person you're talking
• 13:28
  to. These are all additional tools. So it's not to say that
• 13:31
  what what you have and what's natural to you is bad. They're
• 13:35
  all good in different situations. But you need to add
• 13:39
  more. I think we all need to keep adding more of these
• 13:41
  communication tools to our toolbox.
• 13:45
  Scott Ritzheimer: I love it. I hear one of the things I hear
• 13:47
  like here, as you're saying that, is there's a difference
• 13:49
  between I am direct and I can be direct totally. Yeah. I love
• 13:55
  that. That's really powerful. There's a question Eric that ask
• 13:59
  all my guests, and I'm very interested to see what you'd
• 14:01
  have to say about it. But the question is this, what would you
• 14:04
  say is the biggest secret that you wish wasn't a secret at all.
• 14:07
  What's that one thing you wish everybody watching or listening
• 14:10
  today knew?
• 14:11
  Eric Nitzberg: Everybody has imposter syndrome, that that
• 14:14
  would be it and and I would add, just to unpack that, imposter
• 14:19
  syndrome is a voice, not a truth. So when you're feeling
• 14:25
  imposter syndrome, it's uncomfortable, but don't believe
• 14:28
  what it's telling you, because, in fact, it may just be
• 14:31
  motivating you to perform even better.
• 14:34
  Scott Ritzheimer: Wow, that's such a cool take on it, one that
• 14:36
  I hadn't considered before. I love that, Eric, there's some
• 14:39
  folks listening that would love help with this. They're
• 14:41
  struggling with imposter syndrome themself, or maybe even
• 14:44
  an executive on their team is dealing with it. Where can they
• 14:47
  reach out to you? Where can they find more out about the work
• 14:49
  that you do?
• 14:50
  Eric Nitzberg: They can look me up on their favorite AI, or
• 14:52
  Google my name, or they can check my website at
• 14:55
  sierraleadership.com
• 14:57
  Scott Ritzheimer: Fantastic, fantastic. Well, Eric, thank.
• 15:00
  You for being on the show. It was a privilege, and having you
• 15:02
  here with us today, for those of you watching and listening, you
• 15:05
  know that your time and attention mean the world to us,
• 15:07
  I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I know I
• 15:10
  did, and I cannot wait to see you next time. Take care.