Latest / Outside The Therapy Room / Episode 62 - When Desire Doesn’t Match: Sex, Shame, and Relationship Stress with Lindsay Kenna

Transcript

Episode 62 - When Desire Doesn’t Match: Sex, Shame, and Relationship Stress with Lindsay Kenna · Outside The Therapy Room

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a man registered social worker and donor in out of the office.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: Wife, daughter, sister.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_02: Join me each week as I sit with a special guest to discuss everyday things after mental health.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be chatting about everything from mental health and relationships to media and critics, as well as personal experiences and reflections.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: All in the hopes of normalizing our humanness and helping you see that you're not alone.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is Outside the Therapy Room.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Hello everyone.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Outside the Therapy Room.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: Today we are talking about something that I think comes up a lot in the therapy room.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but often people are feeling maybe a little bit too embarrassed to talk about it openly, which is sexual desire discrepancies in relationships.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and today I'm very happy to have a sex therapist, Lindsay Kenna, here with us.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, Lindsay.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_02: Hi.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_02: How's it going?
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Good.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for having me.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, thank you so much for being here.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: This is always a topic I wanted to discuss, but I wanted to have an expert on here who specializes in it.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so thank you for being here and sharing your expertise with us.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we always start off with an intro.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: So would you like to share a little bit about yourself?
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want the professional side or like just me personally?
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: Let's do professional first and then we'll do personal.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, cool.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I am a registered social worker and I mainly focus on individuals, relationships, and sex therapy at Bliss Counseling.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and I've been there for 11 years.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and it's like very much my passion.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I yeah, I really love what I do.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then because we're outside the therapy room, we always like to just ask a little bit about what you do or who you are outside of your profession.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so right now, right now I have a two-year-old and she's very busy.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I think a lot of my outside the therapy room right now is kind of focused on her and um just having a blast.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but aside from that, if it's like nice weather, you'll find me sitting outside reading.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: I love kayaking.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um I used to really love going to the gym, but haven't had much time recently with her being so busy.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, I just I I think I really like to hang out with my friends and my partner.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um I love my family dog.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, just pretty easygoing.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that sounds so nice.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_02: And a two-year-old always so busy, but they're it's fun.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's fun, busy sometimes.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, she's sassy, she gives me attitude, and I hope she never loses that.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, she'll need that.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_02: She shows up.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: So, like I mentioned, we are talking about um like sexual desire discrepancies.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_02: And I think maybe the first kind of way to get into this is what exactly is sexual desire discrepancies and how common is it in couples?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I feel like for a lot of the couples that I see, this is uh what they're coming for.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I see it as something that's very common.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know that a lot of times people might not feel that way, but it really, really is.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um desire discrepancy kind of happens when partners just have a difference in experience with desire.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes people will call it like a mismatch, or um, you know, they'll tend to describe it as like, you know, my partner has a higher libido or higher sexual desire, and I find that mine is lower.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's kind of how it tends to get described, is just like there's a bit of a mismatch or a difference.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of like to see it as uh just diff like a difference in experience with desire or a different way of tapping into somebody's sexual desire, um, and also like a different in difference in intensity levels of desire.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: I would agree with you.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_02: It is really common.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: It comes in to my office as well.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, usually not what they're coming in with, but somewhere in the conversation it ends up coming up.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but do you think there is usually a normal level of desire?
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: Is that something that you think exists?
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think that we have like a lot of um what's the word I'm thinking of?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh like what we think it should look like, and then we kind of think that that's normal.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I don't really know if there's like what normal looks like because I think everybody's normal with desire is is different than maybe somebody else's.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that like um we also kind of have to say that like I at some point in a long-term relationship, most, if not all couples will experience a difference in desire.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So it's again, it's kind of like hard to figure out like what is that normal.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's just it's just so, so, so common.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think people are usually surprised by how common it is.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think sex can be such like a taboo topic to speak outside of like the relationship or the couple as a unit.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes when I know in in my therapy room, when I'm like, this is super common, you guys are fine.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this is like normal.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Now let's figure it out between the two of you.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's often like really like this is normal, like or or common people or other couples are having conversations about this as well.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, I think it's just like the topic of sex can just be really uncomfortable for a lot of people.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, like I feel like when people walk through our doors, it's it's so vulnerable.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I love to say, like, you know, I get that on this side of the couch I talk about sex all the time, and I like can understand why where you're sitting, this probably feels very odd and weird.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I and I think that there's a lot of like worry that, like, okay, I'm broken.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: There's something wrong with me.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_00: My partner wants sex so often and I can't even really get into it.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then I think throughout conversations, when we kind of explain a little bit about, you know, the differences and how to tap into it, um, people begin to really see, like, oh, actually what I'm experiencing is quite normal and I'm not broken, there's nothing wrong with me.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then I guess, you know, you start thinking about like ways to maybe bridge the differences.
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, do you I mean, one thing that I've seen too is couples often interpret this like uh desire discrepancy as rejection or inadequacy rather than just a difference in in desire patterns.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what do you think about that?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think, yeah, for sure.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think a lot of times people feel as though like, you know, they're coming to their partners, they're trying to initiate, they're putting themselves out there.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then, you know, for their partner to be like, I'm not in the mood, or or don't touch me, or to like pull away.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, definitely feel that sense of rejection.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: But oftentimes like oftentimes I don't think it's really that person trying to reject them.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's just that they're like, like, I really don't want to do this, or like they maybe are kind of hopping into a place of avoidance or feeling things themselves, right?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't think that they're they're necessarily trying to hurt their partner's feelings or anything, but um it can come across like that.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you mentioned like expectations, like sometimes having expectations of like we hear a number all the time, like you know, we should be having sex this many times a week.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_02: And if it's below this and like something's wrong with our relationship, where do you think that comes from?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_02: This expectation.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not sure.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I I feel like people kind of come in and get stuck on like a number, like, oh, I should be having sex like three times a week.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's what a healthy sexual relationship looks like.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um I tend to sway towards a place of like, okay, cool, you could be having sex three times a week, but what if it's like really awful sex?
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, are you actually then feeling like you're in a healthy sexual relationship and your experiences are positive?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so I think I tend to sway towards uh let's focus on quality over quantity.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody were to come in and say, you know, we have sex once a week or even once a month, but they feel like it really uh like fills their tank and they feel so connective and they get whatever it is that they're hoping to get out of sexual experiences from that, um, then to me that's awesome.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I really focus on the quality, not quantity.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I I know that people kind of get stuck.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: They really want that like higher number for whatever reason.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they've read about it or they, you know, they see sex or that's a way to, you know, work through stress or something, whatever it is for them, right?
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I get why that number can come up.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but I always say focus on like the quality of the experiences.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: But it also can put a lot of pressure having this number, especially when there is a partner with a high level of desire and they're coupled up with somebody who maybe has a lower level of desire.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there can be a lot of emotional experiences that happen then for kind of those in those partnerships, whether it's when that's high and when that's low.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and like we pointed out, like rejection for the partner who maybe has a higher desire, and then a lot of pressure or frustration or resentment for the partner who has the lower desire, if that is like a consistent request that is being made.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: So how like what are some of those emotional experiences that you notice um maybe for like the higher desired partner?
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So a couple of things kind of come to mind when I think about like the the emotional experiences uh for higher for the higher sexual desire partner.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: So the first is like um, you know, that that piece around like trying to get somebody to have sex with you.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like, like that might not feel great for you if you know that your partner's gonna be like, no, I'm not into it, or if you've kept trying, it doesn't really feel great.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know, they they probably also feel like uh, you know, disappointed.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_00: They probably feel like there's a little bit of I don't really know if this is the right word, but like lack of power or control in a situation like that, where they're like, okay, like sex is really important to me in a relationship and I, you know, I'm into you, I love you, I desire you, and yet like you keep turning me away.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like there's there can be like sadness.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: There can also sometimes be um like a bit of uh like a grieving process in that too, right?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I sometimes hear people say, you know, we had lots of sex when we first started dating, and then you know, life happens, we've been together for 10 years, and now we really don't.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so they go back to this idea of I wanna, I want it to look like it did when we were first together.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think for that higher desire partner, and actually even the lower desire partner, there's this grief there around, like, oh, well, it's not the same as it once was.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so I feel like there can be like lots of sadness, disappointment, and I know anger.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, it can sometimes end up in like these uh like drawn-out conversations where the lower desire partner then feels really bad or the higher desired partner feels really bad that they're wanting to have these talks, and yeah, I feel like it could just snowball.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think there's also like the question of attractiveness that can sometimes go.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like sometimes because of like that feeling of rejection, it can really like dig into some of our insecurities.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's oh, am I not attractive to my partner anymore?
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: And like, you know, especially as you pointed out, kind of going to the beginning of the relationship, where maybe we'll get into this a little later in the podcast.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: But like, there's so much happening there.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of like comparing apples and oranges, even though you're both the, you know, you guys have been together through that time.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Things were so different at the beginning of a relationship than they are maybe 10 years with a family and a mortgage and like all of those things tied in.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I feel like there's a lot of insecurities that can come up for that higher desire partner.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oh, for sure.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like that's a yeah, you're like hitting the nail on the head with a hammer there, Ivan, because like it's uh so often people be like, Oh, well, you've just met you just must not be attracted to me.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I must be unattracted.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then imagine what that feels like if you're like, oh, my partner isn't attracted to me.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: But honestly, there's very rare times when I feel like that's even uh the case, right?
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's more so about what's going on for that lower desire partner and um, you know, themselves and life and all these kinds of things that's actually impacting their desire.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: Not that they're not attracted to their partner anymore.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes they're still like, yeah, I find them good looking.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Why do I not want to have sex with them?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I feel like I want to be close to them.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: So why don't I want to have sex, right?
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's all those pieces of it.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I feel like uh playing to that unattractive question.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: But now, like, as we're like in this lower desire partner, like what are some of the emotions that you notice?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, with that, I can kind of see like maybe guilt of like, you know, like, oh no, maybe I'm I'm not satisfying my partner, or you know, maybe I like uh the person feels broken.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, you're right.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_02: I used to have a really high libido and now it's not there anymore.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: What's wrong with me?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, what are some other emotions that you notice for a lower desired partner?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so similar to the higher desired partner, right?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: There could there can be like that grief and that sadness peace.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then I also feel like I hear a lot of frustration.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: So uh frustration with how they think or believe their body should be um reacting to like somebody wanting to have sex with them.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or um, so there's that frustration with their body.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: There's also that frustration with their partner and like, okay, like stop asking me this isn't something I want, right?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or knowing, okay, it's been so long in between experiences.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: Now I know this is gonna come up.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that frustration piece, I think, is big.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's uh loneliness.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think you touched on the word, like, you know, they feel broken or like there's something wrong with them.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: My friends don't experience this.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I hear that they're having these great sexual experiences.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: So am I the only person that is experiencing this?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, why me?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think there's that loneliness.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I think sometimes there's anger that can come out, right?
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Where it's like, I just don't want to do this anymore.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: Stop bugging me, stop touching me.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then I also feel like within that, that those lower desire partners also experience like that desire to desire wanting sex, right?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: You'll often probably experience a lot.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I really just want to have sex.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: I want to be wanting to have sex, I just don't know how to get there.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's definitely something I hear a lot too in the therapy room.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: But like, how do you think that this dynamic starts to shape the relationship over time?
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Because again, like there's these comparisons that can be made about earlier part of the relationship.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so when these dynamics with like the pressure or um a lot of those emotions that they may each be experiencing individually, like, how does that impact the relationship as a whole?
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I think in so many different ways.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I feel like there's first of all, I feel like there's like that that disconnect physically, right?
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um that starts to happen.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: So people tend to like then begin to pull away, they stop engaging in like general affection or touch because they don't want to leave their partners on, or they don't want them to think that they're interested in something more than maybe just that cuddle or or just that kiss or just that hug.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So they start to avoid touch more and more, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think both partners then start to feel a bit of that avoidance.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um, okay, so now we're not really touching each other.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people end up like, oh, I'm gonna sleep on the couch because they're really trying to not engage.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then I feel like that leads to like that emotional disconnect as well, right?
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: You're not feeling um as like emotionally intimate or close to your partner.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, and then I think if it kind of continues on and they aren't finding ways to maybe communicate, communicate about these things or uh work through it, then you start to hear things like, I we I feel like we're just roommates, um, we're just friends, we're just you know, household partners, we're parenting together.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I think when people start to feel like that in their romantic relationships, there's more of like the conflicts and the disagreements around sex, which kind of just continues to keep us in this place of avoidance around it.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think you yeah, you touched on like the impact of the relationship, but also the individual mental health of each partner in this, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like sexual desire differences isn't just about sex.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes it does impact, like we talked about, like our identity, our self-esteem, and then emotional safety in the relationship.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: It kind of can be the thing that starts pulling the couple apart um emotionally.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_02: So then there is no connection.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so like, you know, on top of that, like what are some other ways that mental health is affected from the sexual desire discrepancies?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think like um it can contribute to like some anxiousness, right?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So then, like, sometimes people will share things like, you know, uh, the kids have gone away, and like I know that my partner's expecting this, and it just gets my anxiety up a little bit more.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or um, you know, they're recognizing that there are these issues.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like potentially like a little bit more low mood, sadness, general unhappiness.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I think like it definitely can contribute to our mental wellness, but then uh it it kind of kind of I think stems from a place of like just a lack of understanding about really what's going on.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because once people start to start to put some of the puzzle pieces together, they do feel a little better, right?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Some of that anxiousness, some of the low mood, um, some of the general sadness and unhappiness begins to lift a bit.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, but definitely when you feel like I'm stuck, I don't know what to do, I don't know how we're gonna get through this, of course it's gonna contribute that.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: It really probably feels like this lingering elephant in the room, right?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: That like nobody's really touching on.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_02: How do you think like how do you see in your work um like partners internalizing these differences as something, you know, being wrong with them?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_02: Because then that's where the anxiety can come up, as we touched on, like the depression, maybe resentment, or starting to feel insecure in in the relationship as a whole.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, how do you see that in your line of work?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think that like that internalization, I think comes again from like maybe what people think desire should look like.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then when it's not fitting into that box or even close to that box, um, there's like, okay, there there's something wrong with me, right?
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think that that would kind of contribute to uh a bit more of those feelings.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: But then I think once people really begin to uh like do a little bit of investigating in themselves and do a little bit of deep dive and um start to figure out some of the parts, then they're like, oh, okay, like this this isn't um maybe what I thought desire should look like, you know, what I see in TV or movies or people just looking at each other and like wanting to rip off their clothes.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have some models around like what desire looks like that is just very much not the case.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: So like I get why people lean towards like it should look like that, or it should be like it was in the beginning of the relationship.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, like I think that's kind of where we get that internalizing from.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's like where we may be shaped and learned about what that looks like from the beginning.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're right.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like, there's so much in the media in books like fantasy romance books are big now.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, I mean, we had an episode with Ashley where we talked about like how is reading or engaging in this type of media actually impacting our expectations in a relationship.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's that we believe that like when you're alone with your partner, like boom, you're you should be having sex.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like that's like what's happening in all of these different mediums.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_02: And so it makes sense that a partner or both partners can start to kind of feel like that's the expectation, but it's not realistic and to like realize yeah, the pressure.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's just the realism of it.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting that you bring that up, Ivonny, because like I like I can't, especially in the last like two years, there's been like some uh yeah, romanticy.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: What is it called?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: But that's is it called romanticy where it's kind of like fantasy romance, smuddy kind of that are coming out, and clients are like they they get so into it because they're like they're like, oh my goodness, like this is amazing.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: This fantasy is great.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: But then in real life, like we can't replicate that, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're I mean, maybe parts of it, but um, I'm thinking of like dragon stories and stuff.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: We don't have dragons, so all right, yeah.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: So like um, yeah, there's definitely things that we either read or pick up on or see that really do start to shape how we think desire should be.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I mean, I think we're getting into this topic already.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm gonna just pop this in here because it's in my mind right now.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: But like, I think for you know, if we were to stereotype here for a moment, I think a lot of men maybe, you know, are able to find satisfaction through porn and self-pleasure.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: And for women, it's more emotional through these books, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of the characters in these books are these strong men who are like living a little bit in the gray area, but beneath everything, they're still very caring and emotionally intelligent and know what the girl wants and is able to tend to their needs.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so when we look at things like this and like this, you know, kind of like look at it stereotypical.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Then men can have this expectation of things that they may be seeing in kind of like their medium.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so whether that's like porn or you know, whatever else that could be, and then women are looking at it more emotionally.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, as you know, we've, I don't know, in the podcast in the past, we've talked a little bit about how for women sometimes it's the emotional connection that helps lead to the physical connection.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: And sometimes for men, it's more the physical intimacy, is what actually helps to build that emotional intimacy.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so already things are mismatched and it can be really hard to kind of meet each other in the middle.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because then it's like kind of like that question of like which what comes first, the chicken or the egg, right?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, then do you focus on like building on that emotional intimacy so that like the female can kind of like have that?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: Or do you start to work on like the physical piece?
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that again, I think comes up all the time in counseling when we're talking about desire discrepancies.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: And another piece, too.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: So whether it's the expectations that people are watching when or expectations that people have when they're watching porn, or like expectations that people have when they're reading these books, like the pressure that that puts on their partner to like be like that.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um I think we we sometimes hear a lot, uh, especially now with like Marley's like erotic uh erotic books, um being so popular, the women do want these like really emotionally intelligent men who like know where to touch them, know what they want, um, but then also really want them to be assertive, right?
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so like imagine being the partner and then being like, Well, that kind of makes me uncomfortable.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know how to be so assertive.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And um, again, if we were to flip that, if uh, you know, somebody's watching porn and they're like, that's the kind of sex I want to be having, and I want to be doing all this stuff here, and then their partner's like, Well, that's a lot of pressure on me.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really even know how, or if I would like that, right?
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting, yeah, like the desire and and sex that we see or hear or read about, um, and then how that plays into like our desires or what we want.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: And the pressure's there, right?
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_02: It's there.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: The expectation, like it can really get in the way.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but as we're kind of staying within these stereotypes, and I want to just like, you know, preface it by saying, like, these are stereotypes that we're, it's just gonna, you know, maybe make our conversation today a little easier.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes men are men are kind of often seen as the ones having the higher um sexual desire, and females are seen as having the lower sexual desire, but that's not all the time.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes women do have the higher sexual desire and their partner doesn't.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the same thing can happen in same-sex relationships where one person might have a higher desire than the other person.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: And so just for like, I don't know how our conversation is gonna go, but I just want to make sure that I, you know, if we're talking about men or women and these kind of low or high sexual desires, um, it can be, you know, for any kind of relationship that it shows up in.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I think a lot of people assume something's wrong if their desire doesn't match, or like, oh, maybe we we aren't a good partnership because our desire isn't the same.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there's so many other factors involved.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as we're going into these stereotypes for women, I think we hear a lot in a relationship.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've heard a lot from clients once they become parents or enter the next stage of life, um like the male's sexual desire really doesn't really change, but for the female, it does.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: Their whole body just went through a change.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes that's when things start feeling a little bit off, or there's a little bit more pressure that both parties can kind of feel um as these changes kind of happen in their lives.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: And so, what are your what are your kind of view or take on that?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think first I'll kind of touch back to what you were just saying.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that a lot of times people assume that like the clients we see are like if it's in a heterosexual relationship, that it's gonna be like the male has the higher desire and the female has the lower.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I can't tell you the amount of times that that's actually not the case, right?
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think sometimes people are just like, wait, what?
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how does that make much sense?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: But everybody can experience low or high.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: It really doesn't matter, right?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think some common factors that can maybe contribute to like those desire differences for women, I think you touched on some of those, right?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like changing bodies and sensations, right?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: So pre-baby, after baby, perimenopause, menopause, uh, weight fluctuations.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I hear a lot about like the mental load.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure you do as well.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like where things can contribute.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: The I feel like I'm taking on so much with children in the household.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm working.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: So, like that stress and that impacts my ability to really tap into desire, uh, family responsibilities, um, uh that emotional connection, I think that you had mentioned before.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, what about relationship dynamics?
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's actually going on in the relationship, right?
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is the quality there?
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: How close do you feel to your person?
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, mental health, um, medications.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we know that that can sometimes impact where people say, Hey, like I started on this antidepressant or anti-anxiety medication.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's when I noticed a bit of the shift in my um desire.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, the medication is actually making you feel well.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we're just gonna have to rub up against that.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think all of those things can also be very true for men as well, right?
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So they're changing bodies.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: What about aging?
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one I think that is is that can definitely impact people's or men's experience with uh with desire is like their relationship with their erections, right?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so um we you know, we get a lot of men that come in and they're like, oh no, like I'm having difficulty maintaining or getting, and that impacts their experience with desire.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: And also pressures that society puts on men around like well, you need to be able to get that erection, you need to be able to maintain it for so long.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so there's lots of pieces there.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, that when I was saying around like being assertive, like some men just feel a little bit uncomfortable with like taking charge or being a leader in the bedroom.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, like, okay, what does this look like for me?
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: And this isn't maybe something that I I'm used to outside of the bedroom, and now my partner really wants this, and then that kind of can impact their experience with desire.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, mental health and and their wellness, medications they take, um, relationship dynamic, stress, all these pieces really do impact.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, those are big ones.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_02: They lean towards insecurities too, right?
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_02: The um like, yeah, the relationship with your erection, with desire, with like all of those things.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: It can be really difficult.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: And then as you pointed out, any kind of um support that you're doing physical or for your mental health, like medication, is also gonna have an impact, which can be such a frustrating place to be in.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And as you pointed out, like it might be helping, but it's impacting this other area.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's just something that needs to kind of be discussed and you know, figured out.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it can be hard.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot of um, you know, uh contributing factors to our like sexual desire discrepancies.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it's about trying to be reflective and understand what what are some of these other external challenges that are kind of coming up and impacting my sexual desire.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, something that also comes up a lot in the therapy room is like spontaneous and responsive desire.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: So can you can you maybe tell us a little bit about what those terms are for our listeners?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'll start by kind of like bringing in some some science behind desire.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm really pulling this from Emily Nagoski's work.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I really encourage all my clients when they're exploring desire to really take a look at her work.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um so kind of like a way to explain this is that like our brain has a pair of mechanisms called the sexual excitation system and the sexual inhibition system.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we think of the excitation system as like an accelerator and the inhibition system as a break.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so the accelerator system notices like sexy things in the environment and sends signals that say like, okay, turn on.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at the same time, that brake system is scanning for all the reasons not to be turned on or potential threats.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it sends like the turn-off signal.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: So there are lots of things that impact our accelerator brakes, some of those things that we've talked about.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, for example, if we're feeling relaxed, if we're feeling confident, if we're in a good mood, um, don't feel much stress, it's a bit easier to access that accelerator.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, for many people, like we were mentioning, if they're feeling uncomfortable in their body, if their children are in the next room, um, if there's stress from work or life or mental load, if there's any kind of like uh sexual discomfort, pain, numbness, uh, being tired, being sick, that kind of gets their brake system going.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so with that, there's like this this process of becoming aroused, and it's kind of like this dual process where we're trying to turn on the ons while turning off the offs.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then desire comes when enough of those ons are ons and enough of those offs are off.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: So then we might feel uh motivated to pursue sexual uh stimulation.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: One thing though, that happens, I guess, in these desire discrepancies that we've been talking about is that there are people who just generally have a more sensitive accelerator system.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_00: So they notice some of these things that might get them to turn on easier than what their brake system is saying.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: And for like a lower desire partner, sometimes their brake system is a little bit more sensitive.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So they find the reasons really not to, not to kind of um not to get turned on or not to kind of go with it.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, so that kind of leads me into like this explanation that I like to tell my clients around the idea of responsive desire versus spontaneous desire.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: So spontaneous desire often looks like what we were talking about.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: We might see in movies, in uh TV, or um even like reading in books, uh, where we might look at our partner and think uh or have a thought about something sexual and be like, oh, okay, like I want to act on that.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um almost feeling like desire just came from nowhere, right?
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh whereas like most people actually experience responsive desire, where they need specific contexts to feel right and stimulation before noticing desire.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: So think of that as arousal coming before desire or desire emerging in response to rather than the anticipation of sexual arousal.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: So for many people, needing some flirting, needing some touching, needing that buildup where they're noticing all these like really great sensations before desire to go further.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I think even like when we were talking about like that emotional piece for a lot of women too, right?
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just like, you know, what's happening the five minutes before they're about to go to the bedroom, but like what was going on in the week?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Did they feel supported by their partner?
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Did you know, like, did they help have some help around the house?
• 33:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like all those parts that might be contributing to that warm-up, uh, maybe for men if they are more physical, or for women if they're more physic physical, maybe having some of that like playful touch or sensual touch throughout the week that's kind of building up.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um so most people actually experience both types of desire at different times in their lives and at different times in a relationship.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, like we're saying, um, those couples where they say like there was lots of desire early on in the relationship, well, that makes sense.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was new and shiny, uh, new relationship energy, right?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and it's okay, and it's also okay, sorry, that if like after years together, after children, after all the ups and downs in a relationship, uh, that it might look and feel different.
• 34:11
  SPEAKER_00: So spontaneous, neither spontaneous or responsive desire is better or worse than the other.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: They're just different ways of actually of um actually experiencing desire.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot more people, uh both men and women, uh, lean towards that responsive experience, even if they think that what desire should look like is spontaneous.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's so much amazing information that I think is so important for couples to understand because it is very chemical.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's happening in our brain.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: These are the signals that are coming out, and everybody kind of faces some of those ons and offs a little bit differently.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I just feel like this distinction can be really important for couples just to like bring off a little bit of that pressure or expectation um around, like, yeah, if you're like, why aren't you spontaneously aroused all the time?
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, well, no, maybe I need a little bit of this.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think it also creates a space to have conversations about, you know, what what are some what are some of the things I need for arousal so that I can end up building up to the desire.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: And you made some really great examples, like maybe I need flirtiness, maybe I need like a quick little check-in when we're really busy throughout the day, just like a quick text, like thinking about you, whatever.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, or even just being having a partner who's supportive and you know, helping out around the house, helping out with the kids, like that for some women, and maybe for some men as well.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like it can just bring up this feeling of connection and that kind of sparks that arousal.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just, yeah, it's a lot more than just the act.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's a lot of things that happen like before the five minutes you could go into the bedroom.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like even like something that contributes to our desire is is also the act in a way, right?
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, so are we desiring the kind of sex that we're having with our partner?
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if um you know, if you're really wanting orgasms and connections and all these pleasurable sensations, but they don't happen when you're having sex, then it's really hard to be like, oh yeah, I wanna, I wanna, I want that, right?
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so even like, yeah, there's there's so many parts to this puzzle, you know, I keep saying that, but there's so many parts to this puzzle that, yeah, there's the you your experience with desire, but then also the kinds of things that you're desiring.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I think like bringing in um sexual communication and having these conversations and saying, okay, here's what I'm noticing about myself.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't really want to be doing that in like a negative way, but like, hey, I would really like more of this kind of touch or I need this kind of support leading up to something um in order for me to feel a little bit more relaxed and to get into that headspace.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: How do you think like the misunderstanding around the spontaneous um oh shoot?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yes, responsive.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: How do you think the misunderstandings around spontaneous and responsive desire could create conflict?
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we talked about it a little bit, but is there anything else that you may notice from those misunderstandings?
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that like something that comes up is like you know, really maybe not understanding the mismatch, but then also still really wanting your partner to experience desire the way that you do, right?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: And like that might not just not happen.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: So of course that comes becomes a place of conflict because one person is like, well, this is maybe the way that I'm hoping it looks like, and that other person isn't isn't really feeling that.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I think uh yeah, it can definitely lead to conflict.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: One pattern I see that can happen is a pursuer-withdrawer cycle um around sex.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, that makes a lot of sense with everything that we've already talked about.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: But what do you think are some common mistakes that maybe couples make when they're kind they're trying to navigate the difference in desire?
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like I think it's a big one is like the way that they end up talking about sex, right?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: So um I feel like I hear a lot of uh, you know, you, you, you kind of comments.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so that can hop people into a place of like feeling criticized and then they can feel defensive.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I hear a lot of like, why don't you want to have sex with me?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: What's wrong with you?
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um again, and that can lead people feeling um more defensive and criticized.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really hard to be open and sharing how you're feeling and what you're experiencing when like you're feeling as though your partner's just kind of like shutting these pieces down.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I and then I would agree on like hopping into that avoidance, right?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, if you're just gonna, you know, talk with me like that, then I'm not really gonna feel comfortable sharing what I'm actually experiencing.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I think again, puts us into that place of avoidance, not wanting to talk, not wanting to share, not wanting to change, um, or even changing the subject really quickly.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, you want to talk about sex?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, sorry, I can't, like I have too much on my mind right now, even if like they really would like to, but there's those communication patterns that kind of interrupt that.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, I mean, it's such a vulnerable thing to talk about sex, especially with your partner, if you're if you've reflected and you maybe have an understanding as to why they're like why you're maybe feeling a lower desire or whatever it could be.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's very vulnerable to be like, hey, I've realized this about myself because you don't really know how the other person is going to respond to it.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and and like the other thing I hear a lot too is like scorekeeping around initiation, like a partner being like, I've initiated the last three months and like you're not initiating at all.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I think I get where that person's coming from.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that must be really frustrating because it feels like they're always the initiator.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: The other person might be withdrawing a little bit more, but it I also understand the perspective of the other person hearing that, being like, What am I supposed to do now?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I maybe I'm uncomfortable with initiating, or I've tried to initiate, and it's maybe not something you've picked up on, or you know, like there's just so so much there.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I think scorekeeping can be, you know, something that happens and isn't always the most helpful.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, I I agree with you.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't, yeah, I can't tell you the amount of times people have said, like, well, I have an app that I keep track of, like when and when and how often we're having sex.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, but what?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: What purpose, like what actual purpose is that having, right?
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: I get that some people have apps like that when they're tracking their cycles and trying to get pregnant.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: Fertility is I totally understand that piece.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: But when it's to keep track of like how often your partner's initiating with you or how often you're having sex, again, I go to this this place of like, well, what about the quality?
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm still leaning over here to this quality side, not so much.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, that's it's a very interesting uh thing.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_00: I really just wonder like what purpose is it serving you?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Because it sounds like it's actually creating a little bit more tension than help being helpful.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the initiation piece too, like I that's something I get couples or individuals to even really think about is like, how do you want sex to be initiated with you?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Have you and your partner had conversations about initiating sex?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're thinking that, like, oh, I'm I'm initiating by like, I don't know, making playful, silly comments, and the other person isn't picking up on that because that's not how they would want sex to be initiated.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: There's again like a bit of that disconnect happening, right?
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um so yeah, I think, you know, sitting down and being like, okay, when I imagine somebody initiating sex with me, here are some of the things that would really help me to get into it, right?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's like a body massage, or you know, maybe we've had dinner and we're, you know, hanging out on the couch and maybe start touching each other or whatever that looks like.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Or maybe somebody wants something that looks really assertive.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: Again, how would their partner know if they're not having these conversations?
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, definitely important.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and not only with like the turn-ons, like how do I want it, but also like what it completely turns me off.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think those are important conversations.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: I actually just had a conversation with someone about initiation.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it was, you know, if your partner was just you open the door and your partner's just sitting there naked, like would and like that's their initiation.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Would you be open to that?
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or would that be like, oh my gosh, what are you doing?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: Put freaking clothes on.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not in the mood.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_02: And right, like these are the conversations that need to happen.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: Depending on the day or the mood or the person, that may be a really organic moment to be like, okay, cool, let's do it.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: And other times it's no, why are you doing this?
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: And it can feel a lot like it can bring up a lot more anger and frustration.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not what the other person actually intended with their initiation.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: But if we don't talk about it, then nobody knows.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it is that mismatch, disconnect, like you mentioned.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like I when you know, couples are kind of saying, I or even individuals, I have a hard time talking about sex.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how to get these conversations started.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I want to have them, but I don't really know where to go.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: I I kind of like the first thing I say is like, okay, let's let's let's move conversations about sex away from sex, right?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: So um don't just have like a sexual experience and then be laying there and being like, you know what, I didn't really like the way that you were touching me like that.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that really didn't feel good for me because then um whether it's positive or more challenging or negative comments, then it can really make your partner feel as though they were under a microscope, right?
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, right after just having an experience that maybe they felt like was really cool and connective and felt awesome.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: But now they're like, oh, I'm second guessing with I what I was doing.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think like moving sex away, sorry, moving conversations about sex away from.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: The actual act is really helpful.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then even saying, like, hey, to your partner, hey, uh, I want to talk about sex.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Can we make some time for that this week?
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that like it's not sprung up on somebody because I think that also leads people into that, like, oh no, I don't want to have this conversation in that avoidance piece, or I'm feeling really pressured right now.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, trying to carve out some time, saying, you know, like, when would when would that work for you?
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_00: When can we carve out some time to talk?
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think in those conversations, even just trying to trying to be really uh curious with your partner, asking those like open-ended questions, um, making sure that you're kind of approaching approaching this as like we're gonna tackle this together.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um and not like, oh, this is all on you, especially with that mismatch piece, right?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like it often feels like they're for the lower desire partner, this is on you to fix this, and then come back to me and we'll figure this out.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's that's actually so hard.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: So when it's like we're gonna approach this together, it's a little bit easier.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, I I think, yeah, definitely moving conversations about sex away from sex and then setting up times and asking almost like asking permission.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like, when can we when can we have it?
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's also like um, I know that if you were to do like a Google search, you could probably find like uh Esther Pearl's question, sex questions.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, John Gottman has like the Gottman Deck of Cards app.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: And in that app, it's a free app.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And in that app, he has like sex, he has sex questions.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and sometimes that's actually helpful for couples to just sort of explore like general questions about sex that they can talk with one another if they find that they are curious but don't necessarily have the words or the conversation starters.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_02: What I love about Gottman's card decks is that it rates it differently.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: There's a mild, medium, um, and spicy option for it, but there's also like a discovery deck.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, yeah, it can be really helpful because yeah, sometimes we don't know what questions to ask or what reflections to have with our partner.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's helpful to have like a guide in some sense.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I also something I tell my couples is just it's gonna be uncomfortable.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: You just kind of have to allow it to be at the beginning, especially for a couple who's not used to having those conversations around sex.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so just allowing it to be, and it can be funny, there could be laughter, they'd be like, oh my God, this is super awkward, but and that's fine, that's all okay as long as you're having that conversation.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and also like setting some disclaimers if if needed.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, like we're not going to laugh or pass judgment, we're not going to like single a person out on whatever.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we are kind of like what you said, right?
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: We are tackling this together.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so kind of like being supportive of each other while we're communicating um can be really helpful.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: But communication is so important, not only for physical intimacy, but also emotional intimacy to kind of check in and for the other partner to have an understanding as to what is impacting the other partner in terms of like their sexual desire, because of as we pointed out earlier, it can be work-related, it can be stressed, it can be the kids are in the next room, it could have absolutely nothing between the two partners.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's everything outside of that that is impacting.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: So, yeah, it's good to have a chat about it.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: I agree.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: I would agree with you on that.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like, um, like yeah, you're coming from a place that is so vulnerable when you're talking about sex and what you're wanting, what you're feeling, what you're noticing in yourself.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh that emotional safety piece I think is uh is huge.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's really hard to share your body with somebody that you don't feel safe with, right?
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's really hard to share your body with somebody that you don't feel like you can even really talk to about what's going on.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think like, yeah, creating creating more of that for couples is really helpful.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: What are some other healthy ways that couples can navigate sexual desire differences?
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: We talked about open communication and having conversations about desire, but what are some other things?
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think like that piece around like tackling it as a team, right?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: So just being like, um, okay, so we're noticing that there's this mismatch and we understand where this is coming from.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: What's next?
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: What are some things that we can do together to uh I say it as like to kind of try and bridge that?
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also think like carving out time for those experiences to happen because again, it can feel like a lot of pressure on the higher desire partner or the lower desire partner around initiating and when is it gonna happen and all those kinds of things.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas I think if you're just to say, okay, let's carve out some time, again, I'm like, oh, but let's schedule this.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know it sounds super unsexy, but um let's schedule some time this weekend.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe the kids are gonna be off with their friends or their grandparents or you know, they're away or they're asleep, whatever.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, let's just head up to the bedroom and let's just see where things go, right?
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, no pressure if it ends up being just a cool makeout session.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome, right?
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh let's just see how our bodies feel and build up that arousal and see if then desire will come.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I think the communication piece is important, uh, approaching things as a team and tackling it together and making the changes together.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: But then I also think that like, okay, that actual step, like what's next?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that comes from like scheduling, making this like a priority.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, and then and then kind of going from there.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_02: I like the idea of like try to have intimacy, like physical intimacy, but there's already both people know already in advance that there's gonna be no sex.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe it is like a a long makeout session, maybe there is catching, but you know that the ending isn't gonna be like there's no like penetrative sex at the end.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes that can let go of that pressure as well.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I actually don't mind the scheduling intimacy.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think, especially for people that are really busy or you know, they have a hard time connecting because they're, you know, busy in their individual lives and then come home and have to deal with all the home stuff.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like it, you're like some people might find it unsexy, but it is, it can be helpful to kind of, you know, work at it a little bit at the beginning and then that can create more spontaneous moments in the future.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, yeah, I think like even to touch on that too, it's really interesting because then, you know, when we say that people kind of give a little bit of pushback around like, oh, well, that's not spontaneous.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't feel like it's organic or natural or whatever this language that comes out, right?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but again, if we were to go back to early in the beginning of a relationship, you might not have lived together, right?
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: You might have um been like, okay, like let's meet up at this restaurant or let's let's go out on this date or something.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: So there's like this anticip anticipation that builds to like see this person.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes there's this idea that, like, oh, maybe this is gonna turn into something later on, right?
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, in a way, our minds are kind of like planning it, even though it doesn't seem like it in the moment, but it's like, oh, okay, like this could turn into something later.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: So there's there's a little bit of a plan or a little bit of an idea.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so that isn't necessarily spontaneous, right?
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's been thought about.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so it can be like that in long-term relationships as well, when we're scheduling things, because it can actually be something to look forward to.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, oh, I'm really looking forward to our date night on Friday, or like, you know, where we order in food and then like end up in the bedroom, or maybe you end up in the bedroom and then you have the food, right?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, so it's interesting.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of pushback around scheduling, but I think in research that's been done um around like desire and sex and long-term relationships, communication and scheduling and making it a priority are actually things that contribute to it being great.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's carving out the time, really.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then both parties know, and there is an expectation that this is a time for us.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, in whatever way you want to make it, right?
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like right.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think timing's a big thing, even like with what you were pointing out about having a conversation.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: If you start like, hey, let's talk about sex right now, it might not be the best timing for that person.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so having like, you know, when is there a time?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: Let's schedule it out, whether it's for the conversation or, you know, let's, you know, this is an opportunity for us to be intimate.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: And like, I think that that can be really helpful too, because there is an expectation now.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: Both people know this is what our goal is for this time on this date.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: And there, it can be something to look forward to.
• 52:45
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, for sure.
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really helpful for clients with um desire discrepancies because there's both of them are kind of like, okay, we're on board, right?
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, this is like we're gonna do this together, we're tackling this as a team, we've talked about it.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not that you're planning out every like little detail of like what's gonna happen, right?
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and cool, but if you are, that's also awesome for you.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: But like, yeah, it could just be like, okay, let's like let's see what happens when we get to the bedroom later.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: Let's start with some massages and see where it goes.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: No pressure if it ends up in penetrative, um, cool.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but if not, then we just had a really good time.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and then I think people get used to it.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm actually looking forward to our Thursday night dates or Sunday morning rendezvous, right?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I think that like it, yeah, once you get into a bit more of that habit and routine.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then even for those people who are like, I want more of that, that might actually follow through, right?
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like people might then just be like, Oh, I'm actually really enjoying this time together.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Let's like carve out more time for that, right?
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah, the road will take you somewhere.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's a good start, especially like for those couples who are finding that challenge.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we talked a little bit about how emotional safety plays into sexual desire.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: Is there anything that we missed um that you want to kind of talk about now in terms of like the role that emotional safety plays?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I would just say like to me, that's a really big piece, right?
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: Is just because sex is so vulnerable.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that like, you know, have those conversations about what helps you to feel safe and what helps you to feel emotionally connected to your partner.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and yeah, and kind of put the focus on that too.
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's a good reflection for our listeners.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you are finding this uh sexual discrepancy, like just have a moment to reflect like, what does emotional safety look like for me and my relationship?
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_02: What are, you know, safe um kind of initiations that I accept from my partner and what are things that are in my like no-never kind of list?
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then being able to reflect on it first so then you can communicate about it with your partner.
• 54:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, oh, for sure.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, so with like couples, like when do you think a couple should consider seeing a therapist or sex therapist if they're experiencing this?
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, okay, so I feel like if you're finding that talking about sex with each other is difficult or it's leading to more of these like arguments or more disconnect, it's probably time to find someone to just help navigate some of those conversations.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also think that if you're really struggling with what you think desire should look like um and are not experiencing that, then talking about that with a sex therapist can be really helpful to normalize and um validate your experience uh and also help you to learn some ways to kind of tap into the way that you experience it, right?
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if it's that responsive way, how can you kind of tap into that?
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I also think that people I oh how do I say this?
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I think it's a little bit more challenging when people feel like that counseling is the last result or the last resort, sorry, right?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because then it's harder.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of frustrations, there's a lot of pent-up maybe emotions and resentment, and it's a little bit harder to work through those waters.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I think that even when you're just starting to notice this and you're like, oh, okay, like this doesn't feel great, that's also an awesome time to come and like talk about it before it becomes something that like is getting bigger and bigger, right?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or something that's snowballing.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah.
• 56:24
  unknown: Yeah.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say, like, if you're really struggling uh with it, if you're finding that there's a lot of disconnect, if you're finding that there's these big arguments or these blow-ups that keep happening, definitely uh reach out.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but then also if you're just sort of like curious and you're noticing and you're starting to be like, what's happening here?
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's also a great time to.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be like the we are at the worst of the worst to kind of come into counseling.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it doesn't have to be the crisis.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: It can be like, yeah.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember what the word is preemptive.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, proactive, right?
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like and especially, there you go.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I and I have a lot of clients who come in and they're like, actually, like our experiences are very pleasurable and like things feel really great and connective.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: We just want to make sure that like this is something that's like sustainable, right?
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so it might not be that they're in therapy for months and months, it might just be that they're there for like a few sessions and then they're like, okay, actually, like this is what I needed and I'm out, right?
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, that preemptive or proactive kind of approach is also really helpful.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: Well, is there one takeaway from today's conversation um that you want to kind of leave our listeners with?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would just say that, like, like I said before, desire discrepancies are normal.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_00: They happen in most relationships at some point in time.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if you feel as though like you experience desire differently than what maybe you've imagined, most likely you're not broken.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's normal.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's not the end of sex for you, right?
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's just definitely something to explore.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I think like the theme of our conversation has definitely been communication.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_02: So make sure to communicate.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, that's so important.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much, Lindsay, for sharing your expertise today.
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_02: Where can folks find you?
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_00: So uh if they're on Instagram, they can hop on over to uh Bliss Counseling Instagram.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: How do we say this?
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_00: The handle is just at Bliss Counseling.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and uh you can find lots of information there too.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you did want to connect with another sex therapist, uh, we have options and some pretty cool posts to check out.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, head on over to the Bliss Counsel Instagram.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll have both um the Bliss Instagram and the website on our show notes as well, along with the resource that you mentioned today.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you have some other resources um that I'll also add into the show notes um for folks.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, thank you so much for being here.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_02: This was a lot of fun having this conversation.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you so much.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: All right, everyone, make sure to follow us also on Outside the Therapy Room Pod, and we will see you next week.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: Take care.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: Bye.
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to Outside the Therapy Room.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_02: This podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only.
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_02: If you reside in Ontario and are interested in working with one of our therapists, please visit our website in the show notes.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: If you reside outside of Ontario, a quick Google search or search through psychology today will help you find a therapist near you.