Latest / Skin Anarchy / Michael Krans, VP Head of Industry- Beauty, Fashion And Luxury at HEARST

Transcript

Michael Krans, VP Head of Industry- Beauty, Fashion And Luxury at HEARST · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, I wanted to pop in real fast before the episode and share with you my current obsession in the skincare space.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: I have been loving every single product by Skinfix.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Now, if you don't know much about Skinfix, it was originally inspired in 1870 by Thomas Dixon, who was a pharmacist at the time, and he was creating this bomb that was used that was working for so many of his customers for all of their skin concerns.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: So carrying that legacy and heritage forward, Amy, who is the current CEO and founder of this amazing line, has created a wide range of products that really fit for almost everybody in every demographic.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: I'm obsessed with the work that they're doing in the science aspect, in the self-care aspect, connecting clean beauty.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's all of the good things that we want in our skincare products without compromising results.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: So again, check them out at www.skinfix.com and stay tuned for this awesome episode coming up.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks, guys.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, welcome back to Skincare Anarchy.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: This is Ekta, and I hope you had a chance to catch our New Beauty article, which just came out yesterday.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: We are super humbled, honored, all the great stuff.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much to New Beauty, to Liz Ritter, who is the editor-in-chief of that amazing publication.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: It means the world to our whole team, and I hope you guys have had a chance to check it out.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: But today's episode is truly, you know, it's very, very humbling to be hosting this guest, and I think he is an immense, you know, resource for the you know, for us and just learning about the industry.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_02: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Michael Kranz, who is the VP head of industry for beauty, fashion, and luxury at Hearst.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: So welcome to the show, Michael.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: I am so honored to be hosting you.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's my pleasure to be here.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's my honor.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to get started um by discussing your career and just the incredible career you've had because I'd love to learn your journey and you know just every all the experience you've uh had.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, I'd love to tell you about it.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So um let's see, I've lived in New York for about 20 years.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm in my 20th year.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm originally from Wisconsin and uh went to university in Minnesota.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um I actually spent some time abroad in uh during college, which um, you know, sort of opened my eyes to the world.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: And um in within that, those experiences, I sort of visited New York a few times.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, after you come to New York, visit New York once, at least for me, um, the place you want to be.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, yes.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: So um I went out to to, you know, started searching for jobs in New York and um landed a position with a company called News America Marketing, which really specialized in packaged goods, brands.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it was it was uh they published a FSI, it's called a freestanding insert.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh it was basically the coupons in your Sunday newspaper, and they also did a lot of in-store advertising, at shelf advertising.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: And that was sort of my start into the media business.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I was there for about a year and a half, and then I then transitioned into the world of magazine media, which is really the world I sit in today.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's you know, I I know that people talk about, you know, magazines are an essential part of beauty, and I they are because you know, we learn so much from them.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to I want to really talk to you about like, you know, your role and what goes behind like you know, creating these iconic publications and and really giving like always having material that's you know new and cutting edge.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'd love for you to just speak on that a little bit.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I you know, um I think the role of magazines has certainly evolved over the last 20 years or the last 18 and a half years that I've been in the business.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: Personally, I've always been a real consumer and lover of magazines.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so even You're a magazine guy at heart.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a total magazine guy.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I still am.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um not as much as I was before.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: I I think just like everyone else, my attention is now diverted in lots of different directions, and I'm consuming media across a lot of different platforms in a lot of different ways.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I don't have any more time.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I my time with magazines is is definitely diminished.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say what hasn't diminished over the last my last 18 years in the business is the editorial credibility, the authority of magazines.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_01: The the fact that editors and magazine brands I think are still really seen as the gold standard.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_01: So when it comes to the editorial opinion, for instance, at Hearst, the company publishes good housekeeping.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: When a brand has the good housekeeping seal of approval, that can have a major impact on that brand's success.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and their growth.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Go ahead.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_02: And their growth.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um so you know, Hearst is home to a lot of legacy magazine brands: Town and Country, Harper's Bazaar, Good Housekeeping, um, brands that have been around for so long, and consumers over the years have looked to these brands and have and have really have a relationship and really trust what these magazine media brands recommend.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, within my field, I I my experience really lies within fashion and beauty and luxury.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: I think beauty in particular is a category where consumers are really looking for advice from a from multiple sources.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think for sure right now they're looking to social media influencers and um YouTube influencers and always for advice and for recommendations.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I think there's, you know, part of that decision-making process also involves the recommendation of editors, whether they work, you know, whether it's an editor from a Hearst publication or a publication published by another company or other companies.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, it's all part of the what goes into a consumer deciding which brands to buy or try.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I completely agree with that.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that, you know, even the influencers now are really looking to the editors who have started influencing, you know?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like it's always a bar that's set.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I agree with you that, you know, magazines have really set that bar, and it is a gold standard because even the micro influencers and the YouTubers, you know, they're they're geared towards promoting and and reflecting on the products that they've heard about in magazines.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I completely agree with you.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think uh I think influencers today, whether you're a nano influencer, a micro influencer, or a macro influencer, you're looking for cues and for inspiration from other sources, of course.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they often go to the most trusted sources.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think those are the editors of fashion and beauty magazines.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think it's definitely, you know, everyone's always seeking inspiration and always looking to like get new ideas.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I think they're definitely coming to our editors.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I think one one thing that I also think is interesting is um, you know, obviously in the last 10 years, all of these direct consumer brands, DTC brands, have sprung up.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, these companies, of course, are independently owned or you know being uh purchased by other larger companies.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: But when they're independent, they're of course very focused on becoming profitable.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: So they're very um particular about you know their advertising spend and getting a return investment on their advertising spend.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of these DTC brands have not advertised with some of the major magazine media brands, yet they are the first brands to publicize or promote an editorial award mention or credential that they receive.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: The most famous example is Warby Parker.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a story I heard that I thought was fascinating, which was that when Warby Parker launched, they were talking to GQ.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, prior to their launch, they were talking to the editors at GQ about it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: And GQ very much wanted the exclusive story, editorial story on Warby Parker.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: And um they were going to run the story.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_01: I think you know the launch was slated for like October.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: So they were originally going to run the story in their November issue, which comes on sale in October.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden, GQ decided to push up the story.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it ran in the September issue on sale in August.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So Warby Parker, because of that, moved up the launch of their site, even though they weren't really ready to start taking orders.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And um they did that.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: The article went live and you know, got out into the magazine and on gq.com.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think Warby Parker within 24 hours had like 10,000 people on their waiting list or some great.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and from that day on, uh, Warby Parker would always cite the fact that they were written about by GQ.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah, yeah.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, what do you mean when you say like investing in the magazine, like the publication branding?
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I want you to go deeper into that because I think that's a great point.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we all want to support magazines and we all learn from the editorial world.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: So what is that gap between, you know, utilizing, like, you know, just kind of giving back in a way, right?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: So like a lot of brands obviously are spending their advertising and marketing dollars in new ways.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of them are very focused on performance and a return on investment.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um magazine, the printed magazine as a vehicle is is it is very hard to prove a return on investment.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's mostly used as a brand awareness tactic.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so a lot of brands have either stopped advertising in in print magazines or significantly decreased their investment.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um, that's a that's a problem for print magazines because they rely so heavily on advertising for their business.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, consumers are willing to pay less and less and less every year for a subscription to a magazine, and fewer buying them on newsstands.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, now I will say magazines have invented all sorts of new ways to drive new revenue streams, um, which some have proven very successful.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there is certainly health in the in the in the magazine media industry, but the print outlet is very challenged.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, and it's and it's hard because all of these brands, new old um DTC, legacy, all the brands out there in the universe.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: I think a lot of the people running these brands definitely love magazines and they just they vie for the editorial mentions and the inclusions and things like that and and the the love of the editors.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: But um that will only continue to exist if of course businesses exist.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, but the exciting part is that magazines, magazine media has evolved, of course, over the last 10 or 15 years, so that it's truly multi-platform.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: They're less reliant on the print, and you know, that there's affiliate and commerce and digital advertising and social and video and branded content and custom content and all these amazing things.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And beauty advertisers, beauty brands certainly are leveraging all of those things.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, it some might say it's not quite enough to make up the deficit in print advertising.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I completely agree with you because, you know, it's not fair either.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the people who are writing about your brand are professionals and experts.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: And for you to want their opinion and then base your brand off of, you know, oh, we got into Harper's Bazaar, we got into Forbes, or, you know, that's great.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_02: But what about the brands that are going to be in the future that won't be able to because those magazines can't sustain anymore?
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I completely I love the point that you brought up.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm actually curious, do you think it has to do with like the price point of advertising in a big publication?
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's the problem.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's more about measurement.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's about a brand being able to say, I spent X dollars in print advertising, and they're unable to show the output, the out the outcome of that advertising.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, one can conduct brand lift studies and um reader engagement studies and things like that, which prove that print advertising is effective.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: But there are lots of different um, there are lots of new and different and exciting routes to reach a consumer, to reach them at multiple points within the journey in the purchase decision journey.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, that that's an exciting um part of this evolution.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that's really what I've been working on, I would say, in the last five years is working with brands to figure out what sorts of solutions can be created to address a problem that are that touch all of those different platforms.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and experiential too is another one, you know, we haven't spoken about, but you know, engaging with customers live one-on-one, that I think that coming back in the near future, um, that's something else that magazine media brands do very well.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um, I, you know, and I want to ask you because I know there's a lot of criticism in the industry about um it's a male-run industry, you know, I hear that a lot, that men are at the forefront of you know the higher positions.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I personally, as a woman, don't have a problem with that because I think I'm being represented well enough as a woman.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I want you to talk about being a male in this industry and your perspective and you know, just how you view the beauty industry, the luxury, you know, luxury industry, the fashion industry, because I think that perspective is something that we really need to, you know, realize and understand and and get out there to the consumers.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I I will say first in in magazine publishing, there are it is in my opinion, a very female dominated um industry.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I think is a very good thing.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've I've been really have enjoyed throughout my career working with um uh various uh female colleagues.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I will say within the beauty industry, of course, there are you know a lot of amazing talented female professionals.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I will say, I think what's been interesting in beauty is that if you think about male consumers, yeah, then just as the beauty consumer, you know, I was thinking um in preparation for a chat about 20, 25 years ago when there was the term metrosexual.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when I was coming out of college, everyone was talking about metrosexual.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: And now that of course is gone away, thankfully.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um that term has gone away.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I think thanks to a lot of the young male TikTok celebrities, let's call them celebrities, and other young male social media stars, have really opened up the door to um and embraced the idea of men really truly caring about their skin and even going um to the to the area and to the thought of wearing makeup.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it and and these men are comfortable using brands that are really traditionally marketed to women, you know.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't have 20, 25 years ago, it was about metrosexuals, quote unquote, using men's skincare or men's makeup brands.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're in a world where you know that there is a a discussion around, I think, does there need to be a men's skincare line?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Is that right, exactly?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, skin is skin.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, there are some subtle differences between um male and female skin, but for the most part, I think younger American men are very open to the notion of using La Mer or using an Estee Lauder product or using a Mac product, um, which have historically been marketed to women.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I agree.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I think men, you know, from all backgrounds, because for me, I know, you know, my fiance steals my skincare, you know, all the time.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like I think that it's not, it's an area of this industry that might be being, you know, it's it's being it's being addressed in the wrong way because there's brands where saying, you know, we're unisex friends, anyone can use us, but then there's also brands that are like, no, we are for the male consumer, we are for that, you know, that man that wants a simple routine.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: And for me, I get so confused, right?
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's like they're all selling products.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, how does that play in in terms of like publication?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, do you uh have an obligation to publish or like you know, represent each of these kinds of perspectives, or do you try to push brands into this area of like, well, we need to make this more unisex, you know, rather than just segmenting it even more?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, uh, I've talked about this a lot.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think from a perspective.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, for instance, I I know our digital beauty editors, and this holds true for uh beauty editors that are focused on digital platforms at any company.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: There is sort of this, you know, you've got to play by SEO rules.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got to create content that is written in a way that can be searchable, and that of course that people can search for it and find it.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: And a lot of that has to do with the gender, the traditional gender binary.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, best skin care for women, best skincare for men, top for women.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so a lot of content you see out in the universe is really written around that gender by that traditional gender binary, male, female.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: But you you do see pockets and examples of where editors are starting to write in a just a more inclusive, sort of non-gender specific way.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's an evolution that's going to start.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna start to see that um more and more, but until you know, it's gonna have to reach a certain threshold before everyone catches on, and that like this the like SEO strategies and trends can change to catch up with that.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um I agree, and I think you know, it's interesting because we talk about body positivity so much for women, but it's like where's all the information about body positivity for men?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: Where's all the information about body positivity and and feeling good in your skin and feeling confident for men?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't think that you know, beauty should be a space where we're segregating even more.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: You know, the world is already so divided and you know compartmentalized.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I, you know, when I think of like young men that are, you know, coming up, thankfully they don't have to deal with words like metrosexual now, you know, you know, thankfully, because people have kind of paved the way, but still, I don't see any content that's like, you know, you're a young man, you're 18, feel confident in who you are.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't see that anywhere, and I don't know why.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you are so right, and you hit on something that I've been thinking a lot about, which is um, and I'm not the first to think of this.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: There, there have been articles written on it, which is um body image issues uh among men.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly within I think the queer community, um, I'm I'm a gay man and I see this a lot within my community, which is you know, a lot of body image issues, um, and a and there are you know a lot of people with eating disorders.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you you are starting to see, I've seen it in the last couple of years, if you look at casting, um, whether it's in music videos, um, you know, actually a great example was um uh Lil Nas X performing on SNL a few weeks ago.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he had six male dancers and they had varying body types.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't your traditional, like chiseled dancer looking body.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: It they were all different body types.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so you start to see small exam, we're starting to see small examples here and there of people in power starting to promote uh different body types, different male body types.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Hey guys, sorry for interrupting your episode, but just a quick shout out to brilliancebybrown.com.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_02: This is an amazing publication which is geared towards providing reviews and options and highlighting brands that are really good for almost any skin type, especially for men and women over 40.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Heidi Brown is just doing a phenomenal job.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: Her whole team is working.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: So hard to bring forward products that really work for this demographic that's never really been, you know, um highlighted before in the industry.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So again, www.brilliancebybrown.com.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: Check it out and also check out Heidi's interview on our show.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening, guys, and I'm gonna let you get back to this episode.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's yeah, it's prevalent, I think, in the gay community, in the gay male community, there's issues there.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I think in you know, if you look at just younger men, um, you know, like I think it's sort of a problem that you've got like these 14, 15, 16-year-olds in gyms trying to get a six-pack.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because all they're all they see in media and on social media and in television and film is just this like ideal body image.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and there's still that aspect of um, you know, gender roles that are still being applied to the male population, which really baffles me.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because with women, we're always like, women can do anything we want.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_02: We can be anything we want.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: We don't have to be mothers, we don't have to be wives.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like with men, I feel like it's still this weird, you know, underlying expectation of, you know, you have to fit into these boxes.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I and I see that.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, you know, you we have to allow freedom for everybody to express themselves.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: And it can't be one-sided.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm all about feminism and I'm all about, you know, empowering women empowerment.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get me wrong, but male empowerment is just as important so that we can have an equal, you know, real equality, right?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, uh, don't get me started on that.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you could I've been talking to my husband last night about um about randomly about the construct of Mother's Day and Father's Day, which is you know, their Hallmark holidays, let's be honest.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm a parent of two children.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I have a real problem with Mother's Day because it doesn't, it what it should celebrate is the act of mothering, which actually, back to beauty, Olay did an amazing campaign last year in May of 2020, all about um the different faces of mothering, the different faces of being a mother.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow, yeah, amazing.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was amazing.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: I think I posted it on my LinkedIn again this year, um, this last Mother's Day, because it was such a great example of how a brand can take a stance on something that is it's so nuanced, this issue of yeah, like the different faces and definitions and makeup of like who who can be a quote unquote mother, could be anyone.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then the same thing, someone asked me recently what I'd be doing on Father's Day.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, we celebrate both of them because my husband and I are mother and father.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Right, exactly.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because all you see on Mother's Day is images of um cisgendered women holding the baby or with their kids, um, and not to take any way anything away from um people that you know, cisgendered women that that are mothers.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I think it if it were up to me, we'd get rid of Father's Day and Mother's Day, combine them into one and call it Parents' Day.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, Parents Day.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm all for that.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: That if I were running for um public office, that would be my platform.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I love that.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: No, I really love that.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: And I I agree with you because I actually, you know, I've I've met so many phenomenal men who are some of the best parents I've ever seen in my life.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, their children have turned out to be just fantastic human beings.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: And and, you know, just to not be able to give credit where it's due, it's always something that bothers me.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I so I completely, I 100% agree with you.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's definitely something that not only is it being brushed under the rug, but it's just being ignored.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's just, you know, we're turning our, you know, we're turning a blind eye to it because for some reason we're still stuck on the idea that because of men, women are less empowered.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that's not true anymore.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's just a different dynamic, it's a different environment, and we have to shift with it.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about representation and going back to brands.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think brands have a platform through television advertising, through whatever kind of advertising to tell those stories and perspectives and messages.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: Sephora had a holiday television spot, they ran it on social as well.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: So, like a holiday video spot, and it showed a dad, um uh an African-American dad braiding his daughter's hair.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, it I I loved that spot because not only did it promote diversity, but it pro promoted the role of like an involved father, sort of playing that mothery role.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah um, and also you didn't know if that was a single dad, a dad married to a cisgendered woman in a traditional relationship, a gay dad.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, you don't know.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's sort of like how it kept it open to interpretation.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um I love that.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I think also, you know, some some of this responsibility kind of falls on the shoulders of the people that were raised by, you know, a parent that was not fitting that, you know, role, right?
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: According to social media or whatever.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's up to them to also speak out and say, you know, because of my upbringing and because of the unique way that I was raised and the loving way that I raised, oh, I was raised by my fathers.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: This is why I am who I am.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think we need to hear more of those stories because that's really going to open up the like the conversation to where it's like, wait a minute, you know, these are phenomenal people that are growing up and being, you know, productive members of our society and we're not even recognizing their upbringing or their parenting.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, you know, I could rant for this for hours with you.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_01: I I feel very passionately about so many stories to be told of uh people who are othered of marginalized communities, of marginalized individuals.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I I my husband and I adopted both of our daughters.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a huge uh domestic adoption proponent.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I'll I'll get on my soapbox and go on and on and on about it.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: But the point is that even those stories, the stories of the mothers of the birth mothers of these children.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there are so many children domestically that are born every year that either can't be legally can't be placed with their birth their birth mother or birth father, and they're not a family member that this child can go to.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: And there very rarely is an adoption plan in place.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: So those children flow into the foster care system.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, you know, Michael, I tell you, I think we're cut from the same cloth because I refused, you know, a long time ago in my 20s.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_02: I decided as a woman, I said I'm not gonna have my own children like biologically, because I can't sit here and look at, you know, I'm from India, right?
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I was born there and I can't look at how many children have nothing, you know, and then create more life.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I just I don't know.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: I just I don't want to rant about that, but it's like I feel like I I really understand where you're coming from because I think there's a need, yeah.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: I have no judgment, of course, um, toward a woman that of course wants to have her own children and um the reasons for wanting that.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, I understand that.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I have no judgment against, let's say, two gay men or a single gay person, um, man that wants to build a family that goes the surrogacy route.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone has their own unique um reasons for and ways that they want to build their family.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: I think the only place where I feel frustrated is that I wish people would just explore all the options.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just think about, you know, especially those that, you know, that aren't able to biologically have children, rather than jumping to surrogacy or other routes, think about adoption and think about the impact it can have on that child's life and also on the greater on the greater world in society.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um Yeah, and you know, I think this is why, see, that these are the conversations that I like just really want to have like as much as I can because this is where I think beauty ties in, where I think the beauty industry really ties in editorial, because you know, if we open this space up, like you said, you know, if we um think outside of the box and we start representing, you know, with more equality, these other brands that are geared towards making men, you know, and women, whoever, feel more comfortable, these kind of things can be talked about, you know.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like an editor can write about this amazing, you know, this this concept of like what we just discussed.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that's where beauty really plays in.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in in a way, I don't know if you agree or not, but I'd love to hear your uh thought on that.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: I totally agree.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Harper's Bazaar has actually started doing some pieces.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the piece is written by Jessica Matlin, who's a really talented um writer and editor.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have to look at the name of the um I'm just looking it up right now so I don't misquote it.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um it was about the beauty binary, the sort of you know, that topic of um addressing men and women sort of in two different silos within the beauty industry.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: And then of course, there's the whole segment of non-binary individuals who don't identify as male or female.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there are definitely brands and I think editors out there that that are starting to talk about this and and and sort of in feature pieces, but I think what we need is the visual representation more or more.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look at what Dove did um with their campaigns over the last couple of years in showing, you know, differently abled people, um, people have mobility issues, um, people of different gender identities was groundbreaking.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think it won a ton of awards.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think you know, there are examples here and there of what brands are doing to provide greater representation.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think it's baby steps, and I think generally over the last year and a half, there's there's a heightened wokeness um about these topics.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because of the social justice movement, there's also an a willingness to open your mind up to understand new and different perspectives.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of have learned a lot over the last year and a half.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's put me sort of in a new growth mindset where I I never really sort of reject any concept or thought or idea.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I always let it now I've always let that thought or idea simmer before you know deciding how I feel about it or doing additional research on that thought or idea.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I think every okay, I think editors are doing that, brands are doing that, influence are doing that.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like everyone's giving it just like an extra layer, an extra step of consideration and thought before they um use their platform to share their opinion.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Uh yeah, I agree with you.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, what is it?
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: Warren Buffett said, like, it's you know, the the game is about patience, right?
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that applies to everything, you know, you have to be patient and let things really simmer.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I love that you said that.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: I actually want to shift the conversation a little bit because I want you to give us some advice, some career advice, because there's a lot of people I think that listen into our show that are very much interested in the industry and they want to have, you know, some guidance.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I would love for you to share any um knowledge and wisdom that you have with that with those people.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, advice for people uh looking to start their careers.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_01: I think the the one of the most important things you can do is um network.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Network, uh find every opportunity to meet people in the field that you want to pursue.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then you have to work on maintaining those relationships.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: I think when I reached a certain point in my career, all I wanted to do was to help others.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: I, you know, would see that 21-year-old version of myself when I arrived in New York City.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I I saw I can see that person in others, and I I want to just be a source of information and advice and perspective um to younger people, just trying whatever career path they may want to pursue.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's just so important to just have lots of conversations, meet a lot of people.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_01: And the one thing, the one piece of advice I always give to people, I I will take a meeting with anyone.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: If anyone's looking to seek my advice on something or learn about my my experience, yeah, take that meeting.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um I love that.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love that we do, and and um I end the meeting with, and I I ask people, everyone I meet with, to just stay in touch with me.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Just every eight weeks, every six to eight weeks, just send me an email, ping me on LinkedIn, let me know.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: You are rare, my friend.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: You are that's amazing.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: But here's what happens yeah, rarely, rarely does anyone actually follow up on that.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, are you are you joking?
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: I would have like jumped on that opportunity if I was a kid, you know?
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Five percent of the people I say that to actually follow up with me.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but for the five percent that do, I I remain in contact with them.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I always say just even if I don't respond right away, follow up six weeks later.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you never know.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's a mentorship, it's a mentorship.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: You have to value the mentors in life, you know?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that you're so you're so willing to be a mentor is huge.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh, anyone listening out there, if you have are ever given the opportunity to work with someone like Michael, please do not be ignorant, you know.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: This is huge.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: I remember, you know, I was uh born in '86 and I coming up, I was always looking for female mentors, you know what I mean, in medicine.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, oh, if I could just find that one woman and really learn from her.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_02: And we didn't have that, you know what I mean?
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like now it's like we have these, uh, you know, we have these opportunities and to not, you know, take advantage.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's such a waste.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I unfortunately am not able to dedicate time to be a mentor necessarily to everyone I meet.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: I I have had a lot of mentees over the years, and they've mostly been people that I've that have reported to me or people, colleagues, other people that I have worked with.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that that those relationships are super important to me.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm in touch with all those people still today.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: But I think just for the sort of, you know, people I'm introduced to or acquaintances or people that come to me and are seeking career advice, um, I'm not able to mentor them, but I I'm always, you know, I I've built a large network over the years, so I'm always hearing about job opportunities and projects and things going on.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just like everything, it's just a function of time and place.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's not a people are so worried, young people are so worried about being annoying.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: They don't want to bother you.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, it's actually it's professional.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: If you follow up in a six or to eight week cadence with a short professional note, that's not bothering me.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually doing me a favor because I'm I have a busy schedule.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you're um in a gentle, professional way checking in with me.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: And at that moment, I could have just heard about some amazing PR manager job at the man that I'm talking to, and oh my God, they're looking for someone.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: And you talked about wanting to go into PR.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's all about time and place, and that's why it's important for people to nurture their networks and you know, just have consistent put reminders on your calendar, do whatever you need to do to remind yourself.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, again, it's it's not annoying, it's the right professional thing to do.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: I completely, completely agree.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I want to actually, you know, I could talk to you for hours, Michael.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_02: This is so amazing, but I want to end the episode by asking you your favorite um skincare and self-care products right now because I I really want to know.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this I love for forever.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so what am I using right now that I really love?
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: There, there's actually a product by a uh brand called Ren.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: I love Wren.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm using this toner from Ren right now.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's an A um AHA um toner, and I I totally love it.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, I love the packaging.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: I love how it's dispensed.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm using that once a day, and that's definitely made an impact.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Also, my husband just bought um a new Bobby Brown product that's um a daily moisturizer.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: It has 15 SPF and it's tinted.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: Oh just it is like the mo, it's got the best texture and it goes on.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Some tinted SPFs are just um, they don't go on smoothly.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, they're weird, they're patchy.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: This Bobby Brown product is amazing.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm gonna have to check that out.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm a fan right now of um L to MD's product, I forget the name of it.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a 46 SPF daily moisturizer.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: I have been trying to get them on this show for real.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I want to interview them because everyone says that.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody's like L to MD.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: L to MD.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: They have that product is amazing, and then they just launched a new product which I'm going to try on, it's exclusive on Durham Store this month.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the month of June, they have it exclusively.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's something L to MD, something and SPF and Glow.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's I think sort of similar to the product I'm using, but it's it's got the the high level of SPF, and then it's got some really great ingredients like niacinamide and some other really efficacious ingredients.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I'm loving that product.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: Trying to think what else I'm using.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: I've sort of started using there's an LT MD eye cream I'm using, there's a Dermalogica eye cream that I'm using.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just sort of got into eye creams.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um do they work for you?
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's hard to tell.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_01: I I think I've talked to dermatologists about this before.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's hard, it's hard to say how efficacious they are.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think they would, I've also heard, you know, you don't need an eye cream specifically, you just need a thicker, heavier facial cream.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: To use around your eyes.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, of course, I love Prev de la Mer.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's oh my god, I know.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: I just totally live for it.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that that's good around the eyes.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I I also do um get injectables, so it's hard, you know.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I get injectables in a lot of different places in my face, um, my eyes included.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's cool.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I love that.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_02: I love that you're so open with sharing that.
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think, you know, men have this way of picking some of the best products.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I kid you not, I've discovered some of the most phenomenal products through like a male friend of mine or like a male YouTuber.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just like, damn, like what I was like searching for months, you know.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you for sharing that.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's I think it's a mix.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've really gotten into skincare in the last couple, I would say the last five years.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um you know, I've got um my medical dermatologist, cosmetic dermatologists.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I've recently been seeing a plastic surgeon for, I'm not having anything done, but for um injectable work and um learning a lot and you know, seeking opinions about skin care from all the dermatologists that I've seen.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I am using right now um Retin A, which I've never used before, and I'm seeing some good results from that.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: I only use it like three times a week.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so that that's been interesting.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think to me, it's I I always say to everyone, I don't want to look like I'm you know 30.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: 43.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I always I joke, I I sort of want to get back to 37, but I that's not true.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: I just really want to look my best for my age.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I you know, I think age is just the number, but I just, you know, as you grow older, you of course your face changes and you have muscle loss and bone density changes, and you know, things move and shift and and evolve.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I think because of the amazing things happening with different injectable technologies and science and our knowledge of ingredients, we can sort of make the best of all of it.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um Um, if you use them strategically.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: I completely agree.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: I completely agree.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's it's interesting that you meant I didn't mean to interrupt you.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's interesting because I think right now in skincare, especially people are talking about that.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, if you get Botox, it's still okay to use skincare.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, preventative almost, you know.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I I think it's definitely a good thing to be doing like a combination.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: They go, they go hand in hand because for anyone that's investing in ejectables, you of course want to further invest in that.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: You want to be taking care of your skin.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's so much, you know, the the the internet, um, for lack of a better term, it's all of this information at our fingertips.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, consumers now are so educated, those that are truly obsessed with skincare are so educated when it comes to um ingredients.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: That's a huge driver, you know.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen here in the work that I do, um, that you know, there is such a uh voracious appetite for learning about ingredients and what they do.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, who would have thought a couple of years ago that people would know what niacinamide is or transexamic acid or right, a lot of these organic uh chemistry terms, and I'm like, wow, you know, I thought I was AHAs.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_01: I like all of these things, you know, we're learning about all of these things.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I think knowledge is power and it it it can get overwhelming at the same time, you know.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think you have to take it all with a grain of salt and not overdo it.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think we know there are certain ingredients that do have positive benefits if used consistently and if the formula is good and fresh, um, by the way, not expired.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I think those are the key things is to, you know, not get overwhelmed, don't overcomplicate your skincare routine.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, to me, it's about, you know, ensuring that you're, you know, all the key vitamins, vitamin C, vitamin E, obviously skin suitical CE ferrulic is like the holy grail.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, everyone is ravening products.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's so amazing.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, although I do find it's beneficial to sort of um cycle that product.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you see I see better, greater benefits when I sort of use for 60 days and like offer 30 to 60 days.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um But I think that's good for all skincare too.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, you know, just to have like a nice, you know, like a cycle that you go through.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, your skin is always changing.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I hear what you're saying.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh wait, I think it's good to change it up too and to use you know different products within a brand or you know, try different brands and see what you like because I mean that's a whole nother territory we haven't gone into, which is this the the advent of uh customized skincare.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, customized.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to hear your thoughts on that.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: Customized skincare, seriously, because I know we have like I know we're pressed for time, but like I really don't know how many brands we need that are doing personalized skincare because I think everyone's doing it now.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there are a few brands that are, I think a few that got out early in it are having some success.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think it it could potentially become a big thing.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_01: I it could explode because I do buy into the concept that everyone has a unique obviously, we know everyone has a unique genetic makeup, and everyone is skin is different and unique in a special way.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so one would think then, just logically, that you know, you should have a skincare regimen that is uniquely defined and created for your skin type um and for the makeup, the chemical makeup of your skin.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um I just don't know enough about it.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't done enough research on it.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: I just wonder how customized it gets.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_02: Same same questions here.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think there are so many amazing efficacious products, skincare products out in the market that you could probably gain the same benefits that you would from a customized skincare product.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, what I have, what I do think is interesting is you know, a lot of the dermatologists that I see in New York have their own skincare lines.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, they're able to sort of create their own unique formulations and adding different ingredients.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um and but even still though, Michael, you know, honestly, I think it here's my thing with the research, there's not enough representation because what you just said, you know, it made me think of okay, how customized can we get?
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, from the science perspective, I when I think about customization, I'm thinking about like, you know, your skin barrier is made up of lipids.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_02: So why don't we do a genetic profile to figure out which ceramides are expressed more in your skin versus somebody else's?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: You know what I mean?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: And like that to me is customization, like this merger of like scientific research and just you know new ways of figuring out like what makes us unique and and applying that to just you know products that are able to be marketed and accessible to everybody.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's truly where you know customization, if we want to call it that, can come in for skincare.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because right now, frankly, I don't think it's truly customized.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think there's any customization.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I agree.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: If there were a way to sort of do the genetic read on your skin and get something that's that tailored to your skin type, that you are totally right.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: That I would be down for.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, maybe that's the next wave.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: I hope so.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_02: But Michael, thank you so much.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: This has been so wonderful speaking to you.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: You are truly a wealth of knowledge, and I would love to have you back anytime that your schedule goes.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: It was my pleasure, and I'd I'd love to come back and chat more.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: Bye-bye.
• 49:56
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