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The V/I Table: Meetings are Feedback Systems · Integrity at Scale™

• Okay, y'all. So Taylor and I spend a lot of time in meetings. I would actually say Taylor spends a lot of time in meetings, and Tara spends the bare minimum amount of time possible in meetings because I just don't love them. But in those meetings, you know, we operate on EOS. We look at scorecards, we look at rocks, to-dos, people issues, operational issues or changes, hiring. Literally everything that happens in an organization is going to at some point funnel or filter through a meeting. So I think that The feedback from meetings is both the content that we cover, but also the stuff that's happening during the meeting between the people. So if we think about, problems, issues, rocks, metrics, et cetera, all of that is like the content of a meeting. But then we also have this meta content. So what gets attention or what gets ignored? What is draining? What creates energy? What keeps coming up as like a recurring issue? What do we avoid on the agenda? Like what's been on the agenda for six weeks and we haven't touched it yet? Meetings are rife with information and data, and I want to explore how Taylor and I both think about meetings and the function that they serve. In case you don't know, I think it's obvious, Taylor is my integrator. She's the integrator to my visionary, and this is a VI table, so we're gonna explore the concept of meetings as feedback systems, which they are, and we will do that by way of a random series of questions. And if we have time, we'll run through a scenario at the end, and then we will all move on with our days. So T-Dog, you ready? I'm ready. Let's do it. How about I open with this? When you hear meetings are feedback systems, what does that mean to you? The first thing I think of is the way we structure our meetings is all about solving problems. And so we have an open call for what are issues, what's going on the list, what do we wanna talk about today? And so in that way, we are not deciding these are the most important things we need to talk about, these are the issues, but the people who are working in the business are saying, "Hey, this is what I'm seeing." And so that right there is inherently feedback about what's maybe going on in the practice. But then the kinds of problems people are bringing is also feedback to me in terms of, you know, I just was reading something yesterday during my clarity break about the majority of the time the problems either boil down to a process issue or a people issue. And what might seem like a people issue on its head is almost always a process issue. I love that. Yeah. And so he gave a great example of these two leaders, I think it was an operations person and an HR person, and every time they had to hire someone new it was like a cat fight between the two of them, and the implementer was like, "Well, what's the process? Are they following the process?" And it was like crickets. And someone was like, "What process?" There was no clarity on who did what, what the expectations were and once they ironed out that part of the process it was smooth sailing. Maybe this person is coming and it's seeming like they are having a lot of negative feelings about a person or a process- Mm-hmm ... and the issues they're bringing up. That is data to me about, well, what's going on with this person? Mm-hmm. Like, these things may be issues, but I'm also sensing that this person maybe has something going on. And then also just the structure of doing headlines, like, that's feedback. I think that can be really challenging from a leadership perspective to really be connected in with what's going on, what's happening. Mm-hmm. Um, and so it's a great way to- Get that feedback without having to seek it out necessarily. Yeah. I think of everything as data and feedback, like everything that happens, It's not just what we're talking about. I love the example you gave from the book because that's exactly what ends up happening. We start talking about an issue between somebody seeming like they're not doing their job, for example, and then the reality is like, well, it's not fucking clear. Like, we don't have- Yeah ... this laid out, or this process isn't clear. Or maybe it's clear to us, but it hasn't been communicated effectively to them. Yeah. The fact that they aren't doing their job and what lands on the issues list is the entry point. Like, this is feedback for something, but we're not starting with this is the actual issue. We have to like get to the root of whatever is causing it. Yeah. So yeah, for me, every single thing, the way that we engage with each other is feedback. Everything that happens within a meeting between all of us and how we choose to engage with the content is as important in terms of feedback as the content itself. Yeah, it's both. It's what we're engaging in, it's how we're engaging, but it's also what we're not engaging with. I think there's two sides to this, or maybe there's, like, flip sides, almost like an alternate universe question. What does it tell us when an issue gets discussed repeatedly but doesn't move? But I would say the flip side is, what does it tell us when there's an issue that repeatedly doesn't get discussed or moved? Those two things are, to me, very distinct. The simple answer is, it's because you never solved it in the first place. Like, that's what it is. Yeah. It keeps coming back because it never really got solved. Sometimes the issue is truly too big... I think we come at it sometimes when an issue is really complex, and Yeah ... you can't really drill down into what the actual issue is. Like, it could be several different things. Like, for example, if revenue is down, and you could point to, "Well, it could be this metric, it could be this metric, it could be this thing, it could be this thing," and it's, like, a whole host of things. And so maybe your solution is, "Well, our marketing person is gonna try doing something. And also our DCO is gonna go talk to the clinicians who have low utilization." You know, so maybe we have an approach, "And that's the solution," but then it comes back because those either weren't actually the issues and something else was impacting revenue. Maybe we go to the biller, and the biller's like, "Yeah, our aging after 60 days is hella high." Mm-hmm. And it's like, "Oh, okay. Well, that was the issue all along." Come down. Yeah. Or you know, it could be, making a marketing change takes time- Yeah right, for that to, like, sink in. So maybe we need to just pause and hold it on the issues list- Mm-hmm ... to see, if it comes back. Or maybe the DCO goes to the clinicians, and it's actually a people issue. Or maybe we just find out the process is off. Like, the expectations weren't clear to the clinicians. There are circumstances where a problem may be big enough or complex enough where you've done everything you can in IDS to get to a solution, but some things in life are a little bit of trial and error, or it's just gonna take more time. And so that thing might come back. But hopefully when it comes back, you have new data. You have new information about, "Oh, okay, so aging. Aging is actually the issue," or, "Oh, we have these things going on," or whatever. Yeah. So that's what I think of if something's coming back. You either didn't solve it, or- Mm it can be a big, complex issue, and it's okay for it to come back 'cause you've broken it down and got the first part out of the way. But maybe there's more stuff now that you've kind of, um, it's like when you're unearthing something. You've- Mm-hmm ... you know, dusted off the top layer, but then there's more there than you realized. Your answer is interesting to me because I do agree, I think there's something about my first assumption if it keeps coming back is like, yeah, it's not solved. Duh, you're not solving it then, like if it continues to come back. And then the why isn't it solved piece, from there I start to go towards like ownership. Like is somebody not taking ownership of this in the way that they need to? Is there something about it belongs in a role or it lives in a seat primarily and someone's not owning the actions required to move whatever the metric is in the direction it needs to go? But then at the same time what you're saying is, and I think that's relevant for the record, I think that's absolutely something that does happen. It happens to us, and I know that it happens to others, where you get to an issue and you might think that you've solved it, but it comes back because it's actually more either nuanced or complex. But Like for me that's with a grain of salt because I think that those circumstances are more rare than not. If you can't actually get to the heart of the issue, whether it's somebody owning what needs to happen, whether it's a process not being clear, communication about the process not being clear, somebody just not holding another person accountable, for example, like the ownership piece of like I need to hold others accountable too, but I haven't made those moves. Or we haven't looked at the interconnections between a couple of components and that's actually the problem is we don't understand how to even think about this problem or think about the issue that's on the list because we haven't spent enough time trying to make sense of how the related pieces fit together, you know? So yeah, I think it's interesting to hear where you go with it because my thought is, I end up going almost more towards like ownership being next. Like if an issue keeps coming up and we clearly understand what's happening, then it's an ownership related issue. That's interesting. That's just another layer of I said it could be a people issue, a process issue. Yeah. But it's also, potentially like an accountability chart issue. Yeah. Is someone not taking ownership? Mm-hmm. Like, someone's in the seat and they're not taking ownership of it. Yeah. Is there a seat we haven't identified? Yeah. Maybe that too. Yes. So it makes me think, like, is there a dysfunction within the existing team? Is the existing team underpowered? Yeah. Is this actually pointing to, hey, there's a function, , maybe It's going through the cracks because, you know, we've got people in multiple seats. I mean, we were in the situation where we didn't realize there were two seats- Yeah ... that we needed. Yes. So yeah, I hadn't considered that as an additional layer, but that's absolutely true, I think. It goes back to the six key components yeah. People, data, process, traction, issues, vision. There you go. Yeah. There you go. EOS, baby, in a nutshell. I was thinking about the second question- Yeah ... things that linger on there. That, to me, is actually more of an accountability chart issue. It's either we don't wanna talk about it because there's no one really to own it. So if it's either you don't have someone to take it, or should be someone's and they're not really owning it. So that- Mm-hmm for me strikes me off the dome as more of an accountability potentially issue, or- Yeah ... it's a vision issue. Like- Yeah ... this thing, it might not fit. It might not actually fit. Like, I'm thinking something that might be an idea. Yeah. that's super interesting. I keep thinking about we strive to be queer affirming and anti-racist, and- Yes ... we had feedback from an employee, and that she basically said, "I see a lot of, like, the queer affirming. I feel like I see it everywhere, but I don't see actively the anti- racism as much." I was like, "Yeah okay. That's fucking good to know. Like, that's fantastic feedback." And hearing you say that it's been on our issues list, and that just totally clicked it into place for me where I'm like, "Oh, who does own this?" Oh my God, yeah. Who owns this? This needs to move to our same page meeting. Like, I think it needs to start there instead of be on the L10- Yeah ... issues list. Yeah. I hadn't even considered, like, not just with that example, but, like, broadly speaking that- Yeah ... it's, like, an issue lingering on there that nobody is saying like, "Go, this one. We need to solve this issue." Like, maybe it's- Yep ... an ownership thing in terms of an accountability chart issue. Okay, here's my next question. What does the emotional tone of a meeting tell us? You know I like emotions. I actually wonder if people even think about... Uh, they must. They realize the emotional tone is feedback from the meeting, you know? no, I think you are much more attuned to that than the average bear. I remember sitting in this room, we were going to L10, and I think it was just you, me, and your executive assistant- Mm-hmm at that point. And you had given me a heads-up that there was an issue that the executive assistant, that you had encouraged her to bring to the meeting, something to do with me, and so I was of course super anxious. Like, you know, " what's this gonna be about?" And we like, spent the meeting talking about just, like, the emotions of what was going on, and It was the first time where I was like, "This feels really uncomfortable." But we've gotta move through it. And I think it was too intense for your executive assistant. I think she was- Yeah ... further down the line of, like... It had taken me a while to come to a point of acceptance- Yeah that this was going to be. Like, not only was this going to happen, but that It is one of the most important things we can do, is talk about the emotions, name the dynamics that are happening in a moment. Yeah. And I think she is how most people are, in that- Most of us in this American Western society have been taught that our emotions are not valuable and that they are hindrances from achieving things. They don't belong certainly in the professional space. Yeah. That in fact having emotions is unprofessional. Mm-hmm. That you should set emotion aside and show up and just be a professional and do your job. Mm-hmm. Which of course that's intrinsically a very patriarchal approach and belief- that emotions are not valuable. And so anyway, I don't even think I gave you a chance to fully ask your question about emotions and what might be happening, the emotional tone of a meeting. I think that people are not cognizant necessarily, or they sense something and they think, "Oh, I gotta just put on a brave face. I gotta skirt by it. No, nothing's wrong. Everything's fine." Because I think we are told either on a societal level or maybe even in your family system that- Yeah ... emotions are not safe here or valid here, or do not have a place here. Yeah, I almost feel like me like being sort of pushy and unwilling to let something go is beneficial in this regard because- It's hard for me to act like nothing's happening when something is happening. Like- Yeah ... I feel crazy, where I'm like, are we not gonna talk about this? Like, clearly there's a thing here, I can't move past this. Like, I can't keep talking. I don't think resolve means being on the exact same page or, like- No ... getting over it quick. I think for me it's just, like, it's just clarity. What is going on? Why is it going on? What do we need to do about it, if anything? I think also too, the emotional tone is just a flavor- Yeah ... , you know, it's just something that overlays the issue that we're talking about. But sometimes it is the issue. - Yes ... I think I've started to kind of head you off at the pass and say like, "I just want to acknowledge I'm having some feelings about this." Mm-hmm. And so sometimes it's like I'm having some feelings about this, but here's the issue, and that's fine. Yes. But sometimes it's I'm feeling maybe I'm having a lot of emotion about like a people issue, and the issue isn't actually the person. Mm-hmm. This came up a while ago with an employee where I was having- Yeah ... some emotion about something, and I think I was feeling like they're just not doing their job, I was just feeling really intensely about this, and you kind of helped me parse out, what are the expectations that have been communicated to them? Are they doing that thing? You know, we went through kind of the list, and I think what we unearthed was that there was some discomfort in understanding the dynamic between the two of us, because we have shared friendships outside of the practice. And so some of that was, like, coming into play for me, not unintentionally, but I don't think I had fully acknowledged that dynamic and that that needed to be, like, named and discussed between me and this person. Mm-hmm. So sometimes it's just the outer layer of what's going on, but sometimes it's at the very core. Yeah. And either way, it has to be named, because You can't move past it. Like, you can't move through it. AndI've seen you in meetings now. Like, I'm much more attuned to you now. I see when that happens for you And I can see you trying to be, like, kind and thoughtful about it and not, like, call somebody out. Yeah. We were on a group call I think last week or the week before, and I could see there was just something very emotional happening. And I think we didn't know this person as well. And so there's that, you know, that layer of, like, how are they gonna respond to this? Mm-hmm. But it was very clearly, like, the thing that they were talking about was not the issue. Mm-hmm. There were a lot of emotions happening for this person, and between this person and other members of their team. And so it was like- We can't talk about this other thing that you keep trying to drive us at because that actually doesn't fucking matter- Yes if this thing isn't addressed because this is a... Like, your people are telling you- Yeah ... we feel uncomfortable, we feel scared. Yes. And this person just wanted to blow past that and- Yeah ... didn't even really acknowledge the validity of it. And so it's like, oh shit, like, that's a huge- Yes ... I don't care about anything else you have going on, this- Yeah is what needs to be addressed. Yeah. Because this is going to cause lasting damage to your team if it is not tended to. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, I have a lot of thoughts. As you were talking there was a lot of stuff that was happening for me, a lot of feelings. I'm just kidding. Not really, but I mean, like, a lot of thoughts, probably feelings too, but nothing, like, super loud. One is that I always am concerned that any time I or we talk about emotional tone in, like, a meeting, that people think that it's, you know, we're gonna spend the whole time just talking about our feelings. And I can't emphasize how much that I think of talking about emotions when they are blocking the actual conversation you want to have as a functional move to get to the conversation that you want to fucking have. That's what it's for. It's not to just sit and talk about feelings, as much as I love to do that. It's to talk about them so that they come down enough that you can then keep moving toward solving the issue, or being strategic with what you're doing next, or working through metrics. That's just one thing that feels important. I also think you were starting to tease out, like, how emotions can come up. You know, I think on any given day, if I come into a meeting and I'm having a bad mood, I'm just like not feeling it. I'm kinda cranky, I'm kinda tired. Maybe I didn't sleep good. I don't think that really deserves a lot of air time. I might just say like, "Y'all, I'm just kinda, I'm kinda fucking cranky today. Like, I'm just putting that out there. But let's go." Like, I'm good to go to a meeting. That's not the sort of thing that I'm talking about when I'm talking about emotional tone of a meeting. I mean, it can influence maybe how people interact with me, which I hope that it doesn't, and I might say, "Please, please interact with me freely. I'm just like, I might be a little more, I don't know, like reserved or maybe curt than normal." That's one thing that it's like, that doesn't really deserve air time. The other thing, Taylor, the example you brought up, I really liked how you're bringing up an issue and what's actually happening is that there's just some emotionality around a relationship with the person. The issue is this other person is blah, blah, blah. If you tease it out, then you might realize like, oh no, They seem like they're actually performing fine. Everything indicates that it's okay. What's happening for you? Like, what's going on internally for you with this person or with this topic, et cetera? That's one way that you, land on the emotionality within a meeting as the source of a perceived issue. But then the other thing is if we're going to talk about something, yeah, I feel like we're all relatively good at this, and I mean, we've got a couple new folks on the leadership team, but you and I, our current DCO, like this I think happens freely between us, where if we're going to talk about something and there's like a reaction to it, we might just say like Uh, no, I don't like this. It comes up as resistance where I'll be like, "Hang on a sec." I- Yeah ... I, hang on. Some- just hang on, period. Like, something's going on, you know? Or it might come up as, feeling urgent- Yeah frantic. Yeah. Which I feel like both of those things, well, especially the urgency piece, that's much more tamped down than it used to be, probably with having more people on leadership team and just, you know, us continuing to evolve as, like, visionary and integrator. But- Yeah ... my point is a conversation, something emotional happening, like, as a conversation is coming up, that to me is the trail spur that you have to travel down. Like, yeah, no, you need to talk about that because that's relevant data for whatever the topic is that we're discussing. If I'm feeling resistant I mean, I, it usually means something. I don't know what it means. It could be my own shit coming up or it could be like, "No, this isn't clear enough." Like, we're not actually clear enough. Mm-hmm. Or it could be, "Fuck, I don't trust that person to carry this." Like, oh, God. We have a people issue that I haven't actually wanted to acknowledge. That's too heavy to even... Like, I haven't looked at that yet. So I think that when we talk about emotional tone, like I said, I don't ever want it to come across like it is the whole meeting. And, you can't exist without being influenced by your emotional state, and you can't talk about shit. It's just there. It's data, like, in the same way that metrics are, yeah. I think it comes up very naturally between our two roles just by nature of the seats, meaning visionary and integrator- Yeah and the type of people who tend to be in those types of seats. And so I think you are naturally going to feel more resistance or more urgency, and that's gonna brush up against me because I feel much more like, we've gotta slow down." And we need to think this through, and talk about it and figure it out, which is not to say you don't like to talk things through- Yeah, sure 'cause you very much do. Yeah. the undercurrent there is, can you shut the fuck up please sometimes? Yeah, some- sometimes it- sometimes it's like, I think it's enough. I think we've got what we needed here. Um- No. Yeah. But I, so I think, I think that's just another reason why it's important to develop safety and trust- Yeah ... especially amongst leadership team, but as a foundation for a practice, because people have emotions, and there are always going to be relationship dynamics, there are going to be personality dynamics. There's gonna be a ton of stuff that comes up, and we're doing ourselves, our people, our business a disservice if we just try to pretend that that doesn't happen- Mm-hmm ... or that it doesn't belong in the workplace. Um, because we're not robots. We don't just show up and turn that part of ourselves off. And if you're doing that, that's, like, not healthy, man. Mm-hmm. Like, don't do that. That's another thing from, like, a leadership perspective. It's modeling. It's communicating to others that this kind of discussion is worthwhile and has a place here, and I think that , implicitly can communicate another level of safety and trust to your people of, like, we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do this in front of other people. Mm-hmm. It's not like, "Well, let's, we need to talk about this offline. We need to talk about this somewhere else." It's, "No, we value this. We're gonna spend time doing this, and- Watch, like we're all a part of this. We're experiencing it together. Maybe it's happening between you and me, but maybe, but that thing is going to impact the people around us too. Mm-hmm. And so we owe it to them to be able to acknowledge it as well. Yeah. Yeah, to ourselves and to them, without letting our emotional tone or emotionality run the show. That's never the point. All right. So we're gonna shift to a scenario. A leadership team notices that staffing related concerns have been showing up for months. Some weeks it's hiring, some weeks it's retention, some weeks it's workload, some weeks it's communication. On the surface, every issue appears different. At the same time, the leadership team notices something else. The conversations feel increasingly repetitive. Certain leaders seem energized by the topic while others seem frustrated by it. Okay, well, that's, that would be me, frustrated. The concerns keep returning in different forms. Eventually, someone asks whether they're looking at a series of staffing problems or whether the meeting itself is providing feedback about something larger happening in the organization. Now, the team has two layers of information to interpret, the issues entering the meeting and the patterns emerging within the meeting. Suddenly, the question is no longer, how do we solve this issue, but what is the system trying to tell us? What would the visionary and the integrator pay attention to first, the individual issues, the recurring pattern, or the meeting dynamics themselves? How would you determine which level of feedback deserves the most attention? Look, I have thoughts. Tell me. You go ahead. Look, meetings are hard enough to attend consistently, and I love our L10 meetings for the most part. Mm-hmm. I love our same-page meetings. It's not even that when I get there I'm like, "Oh, I fucking hate my life." It's more like meetings are just draining. I'd rather be doing something. I'd rather be, you know, chasing whatever squirrel I wanna chase. So if I'm in a meeting and I'm getting bored, or I'm feeling like, "What? Why are we talking about this?" Like, okay, this ... I'm fucking bored. That to me is data. We're not talking about the thing that we need to talk about. I feel like I would hear myself saying something like, um, "I don't know what's going on, but, like, there's something bigger going on because here's the pattern. Like, we have this is this, this, this. I'm tired of talking about this. What is the issue? Like, what's the actual issue that's going on?" That's what I feel like would happen for me first. I would feel bored. I would feel frustrated. I would realize there's something bigger, and I might not be able to articulate what it was, but I would voice that just to, like, something else is up. Like, bleh, here. Let's talk about the something else because this fucking sucks. Scenarios are always hard for me because I'm just thinking like, "Well, what's the context?" Like, I wanna know- Mm ... are the staffing issues happening in a certain department? Like, is this happening all within, let's say, the clinical department- Mm-hmm ... we're only having issues with clinicians, or is this happening across the business? We're having issues with client care, we're having issues with clinicians, we're having issues with our billing, we're having... You know, like, it's kind of cross-departmental. Because actually what's coming up for me is that if it's not cross-departmental, it might not even belong in leadership. Like, that might actually just be an integrator and a DCO conversation, or an integrator and a, you know- Yeah ... again, like, I actually am starting to feel more like people issues only belong in leadership if they are, like, cross-departmental or bigger level issues. Um, so let's say it is cross-departmental, or it gets escalated to leadership because it's within a department, and that in and of itself is the issue, like we're consistently having issues- Mm-hmm with clinicians. So the issue at the leadership team discussion is less about individual people dynamics or people issues, and more about there is something happening with clinicians. Mm-hmm. And so then I would wanna get into exactly I think what you're saying. I'm thinking about how is the DCO talking? Obviously, let's say it's clinicians. Yeah. So how is the DCO presenting the issue? Is it from a place of facts? Like, this is what has happened, this is what I have done the person seems non-responsive, whatever. Or is the DCO talking about it like, "I'm just so sick of these clinicians- Mm-hmm and I'm tired of this thing"? 'Cause that is like, is it the clinicians, or are you burnt out? Is there a capacity issue with your seat? Is there a breakdown in expectation between you have these expectations of your staff, but the staff aren't clear on the expectations? And so I think I would kind of start, broader and kind of try to whittle it down and figure out- Yeah, that same thing. Like, is it actually a process issue? Mm-hmm. Is it a people issue? And is it, and I don't mean, like, a clinician issue. Is it a people issue with the person managing the clinicians, you know? What if it was organization-wide? Across departments. Yeah, what if it was, like, hiring, retention, workload, communication? Like, what if ... Yeah, that's potentially an accountability chart conversation then. Like, I'm thinking do we have the right seats? Are the right people in the right seats? Like, if workload is coming up we may need to hire. I'm thinking, like, maybe client care is feeling overloaded and clinicians are feeling overloaded because everyone's doing a lot of work. Okay, maybe we need to pivot and bring in more clinicians in another client care because our client volume has really increased. Mm-hmm. Um, or maybe there's something happening in terms of, like, process practice-wide. Like, maybe our onboarding process is not clear because- Yeah expectations are not being clearly communicated across the practice. Maybe our hiring is off. You know, that goes back to right people, right seat. Mm-hmm. Maybe the seat is right, but the people part is not. Maybe they're the right person for the organization, but not for the seat. Um- Yeah ... do they get the seat? Do they want it? Mm-hmm. And so it could be that if it's happening cross-departmentally and maybe we determine, yeah, these are the wrong people, then that points to a hiring issue. Mm-hmm. But maybe if we say, yeah, the seat's right, the people are right but there's still something off, then I'm thinking, okay, well, what's going on in terms of hiring? Mm-hmm. Or what's going on in terms of how I am leading and managing my department heads- Yeah ... so that they can do LMA. Because then there's something off potentially between the way my staff is managing their staff. Yeah. So there's just so many different entry points- Yeah ... that you could start with. Yeah, I think my mind goes to culture almost. If this was happening across the whole organization I wouldn't necessarily feel like something was broken, but I would feel like something was happening. And maybe it's a series of little things, like, across processes or workflows or systems, you know. Or also maybe, are we attracting the wrong people? Are we not weeding them out? Yeah, like I guess with the hiring process, are we not weeding them out? Yeah. It's hard to think about culture and not stay grounded in what we're doing. I feel like so many people issues can be remedied by a hiring process that's good. Yeah. You know, if you're bringing on people that don't actually fit, or if you're hiring people, you're basically limiting the amount of issues that you're gonna have in the future- Yeah ... with the people that you bring on right now, you know? So- Yeah ... it's a long game. I always think about it as like, um, not of course what we need right now, sure, but also, like, who's gonna be awesome in six months or 12 months or two years, something like that. But I think for me, I would just wonder about, like, the culture of the group. Like, what is happening for people? I might send out a survey or something just to get like, um- Yeah ... a pulse, like a sense of like how are you all feeling? Like, what's going on? And from there, maybe draw out any themes. If I synthesize this data, what is it telling me? What's the general, like, feedback from people? And if there's nothing, if it's just like a series of like random things that have been happening, yeah ... then cool, maybe we've just hit like a string of bad luck. So if it's a culture, then my thought also is who's at the top? If it is, you know, with any department, if it's on the clinical side then I'm gonna look at the DCO or the clinical director- Yeah or the- clinical operations person and say, "Bro, what's happening?" Well, I might actually look to you- Yeah ... but I mean- Yeah, yeah ... that's where I'm like identifying- Yeah ... what's happening over there? Because something clearly is going on. Yeah. I think also the other thing is that we're talking a lot about like data and what is the feedback telling you, but I also would say what's missing from that feedback can be- really important feedback, you know? Mm-hmm. Often there's a lot of questions to drill down in. Sometimes we've gotta figure out, well, what about this? What about this? What about this? And let's say it is departmental, you're department head or the person who has ownership for whatever, maybe it's your hiring manager. If that person's not able to provide that feedback, that's really important feedback too. That's telling. Yes. Yeah. So then it's like, okay, this is an ownership issue. If anyone knows the answer to these questions, it should be you, so why don't you know the answer- Yes ... to these questions? I'm super glad you said that. I had a recent episode where I was talking about ownership versus reporting. That's part of it, too, is like if I go to a department head and I say, "Tell me what's up with this"- They should be able to tell me what's up with this. Like, uh, assuming that it's related to their department, that is ownership. So from an accountability chart perspective, that's what we want out of people. If I go to Taylor, my integrator, and say, "What the fuck is happening across the board?" My expectation is that Taylor can give me an overview of, like, "Okay, well, here's what went down. Like, here's what's happening," or, "Here's, what I'm doing, and here's what we've done, and here's what I expect to see." Like, it's the same from an integrator to a department head member perspective. Yes. That's a mouthful. Yeah. Yeah, in an ideal world I would love it to not even be me saying, "Hey, what's going on?" I would love it to be the department head saying, "Hey, here's what's going on." Oh, yeah. For sure. " Here's where I think the issue is coming in. Here's the data I have. Here's what I've tried. I've been thinking about this." Yeah. "This is where I think." And then that just, like, think about, too, how that can really just drill in and refine your IDS conversation as well. Yeah. If that person is coming in and wanting the group to do the work for them, the group is gonna take a lot more time. Yeah. And you're also probably not gonna get as clear of an answer. But if that person's saying, "Man, this is an issue. I'm gonna bring it to my leadership team, and this is really how I'm feeling about this issue. This is really where I need help," or, "This is where I'm feeling stuck." Yeah. You know? Like, really having ownership over your lane, understanding the problem and bringing it, how much more fruitful that conversation will be. You can get to the end much more clearly. Yeah. Because if you say well, have you communicated expectations?" And the DCO's like, "Oh, yeah, I went back through and I looked at the onboarding, and it's in this video, and I sent this email, and this is part of our process." And so we can clearly and unequivocally say, "Yeah, then it's not an expectation issue." Yeah. They know. They should know what's going on. Yeah. So then what are the other options? You can really drill in efficiently. Yeah. That's, like, essential- Yes ... for a leadership team. There are a lot of issues that face a practice, and you do your practice and yourself a disservice if you are not being efficient in your problem-solving. I'm just thinking like, yeah, and you're boring the everybody fucking around you. Yeah. Like, everybody is bored People disengage. Yeah. Maybe they're not really bored, but yeah, I feel like stop wasting your time. You're wasting everybody's meeting time. Meetings are, as much as I don't necessarily love them, like, they are the sacred space that- For sure every, again, I think every bit of information ultimately can flow through a meeting at a practice. Yeah. So I think there's something about if this is sacred, then stop muddying the waters with shit that you could just do on your own. Yeah, what you said I really love. Not coming prepared, although I think that's like the simple way of saying it, but basically it's like proactively owning your role. It's proactive ownership. It's not like responsive or reactive. Although some shit is reactive. There's fires that pop up. There's things you have to like respond to. However, if you're a leader at the practice, there's also something about with whatever domain you're in, you should be thinking forward about the information that you have. I always think about grappling, like actively grappling with your metrics to try to like if this, then this. Okay, well, how are things looking? How are the trends? Okay, what if this keeps dropping? What would that mean? How do I circumvent that? You're doing like- Yeah ... very small level visioning, so to speak, for your department. Yeah, just at a basic level, like I expect that if you're owning a department, you're actively thinking about it. Yes. You're not just taking it as it comes. If someone asks me a question, my first question back to them is almost always gonna be, "Well, did you check the policy handbook?" We have these resources. Yeah. We have this information out here. Did you check it? Yeah. And it's not me trying to be an asshole. Yes. We have these resources, and here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna go check it. Yeah ... that's all I'm gonna do 'cause this is- Yeah ... what I have. And so in the same way, I expect that if you're a department head, like if you're at that leadership level you're gonna try to solve this problem first. You're not just gonna at first encounter think, "I'm gonna put this on the L10. This is a problem." Yeah. Put it on L10, but also can you try to solve it? Like- Yeah ... think about it. It's everything. How can I test it? Yeah. Figure it out. Yeah. I would like, in an ideal world, you to come with a solution. Come with a- Yeah ... proposed solution or here's what I'm thinking. Yeah. And maybe that's not possible, but you're thinking about it. Yes. Yeah, that's the piece, and I think I'll add the caveat here is that if you're starting EOS and this is all relatively new to you, it might be that most issues land, initially most issues that you stumble upon go on your issues list. I would say if that is the case, cool. That should not be your end location. . That should be the starting point- Yeah ... for you and your team to try to figure out how to do L10s effectively. Yeah. How do we run meetings effectively? How do we work through issues effectively? And even if there is an issue, does it live here? Like, maybe that's where you start to go, okay, whose seat does this belong to? Does it actually live here? I think that's just a decision you in the seat need to make. This is just a to-do. But that might mean, like, as a group, y'all are working through it, so. And I think there's a lot of value, too, in doing that because the way I conceptualize a problem is different a lot of times than the way you're gonna conceptualize it. Now, sometimes we're in perfect harmony, like yesterday we woke up and we texted each other and it's like we're- The same thing basically ... we're having the same experience. Yeah, literally, yes. Sometimes we're just in sync, but generally speaking, the way you approach problems is different than the way I approach problems. Yeah. In the same way for our marketing strategist, his view of a problem is gonna be a totally different way. Yeah, same with that. Same with our DCO. Yeah. Probably same with our DFA. Yeah. And that's also part of the beauty of bringing an issue to the leadership team. Yeah. I am benefiting from the diversity of thought and approach in all these different eyes looking at a problem, but I've also done the work first, here's how I'm thinking about it. Here's what I know. And so that when people are testing and adding in things, I can hold it up against what I know and say, "Is this true? Oh, actually, the way I was thinking about it doesn't make sense now that you bring that up," right? Like, so then we're able to create, like, a more robust understanding- Mm-hmm of an issue, which is going to more likely lead to a solved issue. Yes. Like, solved forever. Yep. Yeah, I love that. Okay, we're gonna wrap this up. Here's my final question: What's standing out from this conversation? What's sticking with you? What's either a takeaway or a you know, future research to focus on? I'm thinking of the end of a research article. Like, future research, dot dot dot. Oh, yes. Yeah. What's standing out for me is the ownership piece. I find it really interesting that my mind didn't even go there in our first question- Mm-hmm ... about why something might be lingering. And I think I tend to be very focused on solving the issue. That is just a very, like, that is very much a visionary seeing the bigger picture. You're not saying this thing isn't an issue, but it also is maybe a symptom of a bigger issue. Mm-hmm. I think, that kind of thinking doesn't come naturally to me. I tend to get my blinders on. I see an issue, and I just take it very much at its face. You're telling me it's a people issue. Well, let's talk about this people issue. Yeah. Or if something's lingering on the issues list, I'm not thinking about it. Honestly, my inclination is to think, "Well, what else do we have? Not so much pushing past a, "Well, hold on a second. This has just really been s- this has been on here for the last year." Mm-hmm. " Why is this still here?" And that's a, I think that's really a growth area for me as I'm leaning more into the integrator side of things because ultimately, that's my responsibility. That's my ownership to look at these things- Yeah ... and say, "Hey, this isn't, this has been on here. We either need to talk about it, or we need to talk about why it's still here." Yeah. Um, I think a little bit that's the balance between us. If you're saying that- Um, my tendency might be to figure out what's happening underneath whatever the labeled issue is, if there is anything. I would say that that also is ... Sometimes shit just needs to be done at face value. And so, it just, it's both. Sometimes there is bigger stuff, but, like, is that a big fish we need to fry right now? Or is this, no, right now the issue is just this, we need to get it solved. This other thing is not... It's like a potential future problem. It's not a right now- Yeah ... issue. Yeah. I don't know if I would agree that I think you need to start doing both or you need to do more of the other. Maybe it's because of our balance. I don't really have the experience that... maybe sometimes, but it's not like a common occurrence where I'm like, "Nope, Taylor, you're missing it." I don't normally- Yeah ... feel that way. Yeah. I normally feel like you're getting to, the heart of whatever the issue is. And if not, then I'm gonna say, I'm gonna speak up- Yeah ... and like say like- Yeah ... " This isn't it. Like, something's off." Just to, as a response to what you just said. Or the inverse. Especially with marketing that's been coming up lately- Yeah It's really igniting some vision in you. Yes. Yeah. And so you'll wanna start talking about this thing, and I will say, "No." Stop. Stop. Like, yes. Yeah. Yes, that. But what we are here to do right now- Yeah ... is this thing, and so we need to do, we just need to solve this thing. Yeah. So I appreciate that reframe, yeah, I think that is part of our balance. I think my takeaway is maybe just about our dynamic. The way that I approach things is slightly different than how you approach things, but I think that the way you approach things is super valuable. And so thinking about even this notion of like, if something has been on the issues list for a long time, you said something to the effect of it's an accountability chart thing. Like, where does this live? Who does this live with, you know? Or something like that. Yeah. And that's just one of those, like, oh, God, yeah. It feels like a duh moment. Like, fucking duh. Like, yeah, this is an item that doesn't have real ownership, which kind of points to we need to look at the accountability chart to see who actually owns this and what are they bringing here. Like, what are they bringing up- Yeah ... with this, you know? Yeah. I don't know if that's a takeaway necessarily. That's, like, lingering for me. I think that's coming up for me. And also feels like- Yeah. Yeah ... very actionable because if we go to our next L10 and I see an issue where I'm like, "This has been here for a while," I might then think who owns this? And then if that is the case, whoever that is, where does it need to live? I think it's also validating because I'm thinking about our issues list from even thinking about what they used to be like, six months ago, a year ago, compared to now. I mean- Yeah ... It was so long. Yeah, yeah And there was stuff that would sit there- Didn't belong there ... or- Yeah ... we wouldn't get to it, and then- Yep ... we'd be like, "What did we even mean by this?" Yep. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And so it feels like we're in a much better place in terms of, like- Yeah issues and delegation. Where do they live? Yeah. Who owns them? Compartmentalizing them. Compartmentalization, yeah. Yeah. So it feels like things are going much smoother now. Like, there's- Yeah ... very little on the list that I'm thinking, I'm really the embedding anti-racism into the practice is one thing, but then maybe there's one other thing that's been lingering. I don't even know what it is, honestly. I don't even remember off the top of my head. But I feel like- I know what you're talking about, though, but there's a couple ... something, yeah. But it feels very- Yeah ... few compared to what it used to be, which is, Yeah, I agree ... nice. Feels like, yep, let's just keep moving in this direction. So- Yeah. All right. Coolio. Anything else you wanna share with our, our people before we hop off? Not to be like a shill for EOS, but I just did their integrator masterclass- Oh, yeah ... and it was really... And you did the visionary masterclass. I did the visionary. I've been talking about that on here a little bit. Have you? Like, I'll reference it, yes. Yeah, so I just think, like, that has been really fruitful for- Yeah ... me, for us, um, for our dynamic, and really thinking about how can we take it to the next level. Are we- More traction. Yeah, like how can I leverage these tools? And so I think some of these insights that we're talking about, these takeaways for me, come right out of learning, just deepening, my understanding of what it means to be an integrator, and what is the role of- Yeah ... the integrator. So if you're an integrator, and you're thinking about, "Is this useful to me?" I'd take a whack at it. It's been really useful. And also hearing the perspective of integrators in different industries. Mm-hmm. Um- That's powerful ... problems are really different, but the way we solve the problems are the same. And so there's- Mm ... some, like, validation in that too. So- Yeah ... it was a really rich experience that I'm still reaping the benefit of. Yeah. I'll say, um, ditto, but for the visionary masterclass. Yeah, it was incredible. Thanks for hanging out with me today. If this episode got your wheels turning, I would love for you to stick around. You can, of course, subscribe wherever you're listening. If you are interested in more ramblings about leadership culture, EOS, and all the weird fucking ways humans make organizations harder than they need to be, head over to my website and join the email list. Until next time, make sure you take care of yourself and the people around you. This shit is hard, and we are better together. See ya. Bye.