Latest / The Joe Rogan Experience / #2565 - Michael Douglas

Transcript

#2565 - Michael Douglas · The Joe Rogan Experience

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: by night. All day.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Very nice to meet you, sir.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: I've been a fan for a long time.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow. Okay. Appreciate that.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: Falling Down is one of my all-time favorite movies.
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: That is such a crazy movie. I re-watched some scenes today,
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: getting ready for it. And the scene where you confront
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: the guy who's working on the highway and say, there's
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: nothing wrong with this highway. The thing that everybody a
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: lot of times thinks, that they have these budgets, and
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: if you don't spend all the money, then you don't
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: get the money next year, so you've got to tear
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: up the fucking road and you take a bazooka out.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: I know. I mean, the spooky thing I see about,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I guess, Romanium is it's just how Matt meets up
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: to today. Yes. This is 30 years later. That's the
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: thing that's sort of interesting but also depressing.
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: It is depressing. You would have thought we would have
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: figured it all out by now.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: Especially with the use of the Internet. So much more
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: information that was available than when you made that film. Right.
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: The world's a totally different place, and yet it resonates perfectly.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, thank you. That's one of my favorites, too.
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: That kind of dark comedy. Yeah.
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was a dark comedy. And there's parts
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: completely caricaturist. unsympathetic characters, like the guys in the golf course.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Where the guy dies because he freaks out of his
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: heart attack. You go, I guess you're.
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: Going to die. I remember getting a studio calling me down.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Mr.
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: Tukit took me down to the office. I came down
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: to the office and I was introduced to Mr. Ho,
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: who was chairman of the Korean Grocers Association. And they said,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: we have a real beef here. You've got a senior
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: where you've knocking up a Korean grocery store and attitude
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: and all that and I said well look I didn't
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: write the script but you gotta understand there must have
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: been something in it that hit people triggered it because
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: that was a scene and so he listened to me
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: bless him and I was back in New York about
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: three weeks later in my local Korean grocery store and
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: they were wearing smile buttons and I thought okay there
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: you go made a dent.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Well, it almost became like a symbol, you know, of
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: don't fuck with me. I'm ready to crack. Which I
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: think a lot of people resonate with. I even had
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: a guy come on the podcast dressed as you and
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: falling down once. Brought the suitcase and everything.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Ooh, that was a little.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: He did it for fun. But it was fun. It
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: was hilarious. But you've been in a ton of insane movies.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: What is it like to write a memoir? That's got
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: to be a weird feeling to, like, relive your life
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: and try to be as honest as you can and
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: put it all down.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I resisted it for a long, long time.
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: And then, well, it was sort of after I had
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: cancer about 16 years ago, stage four, you know, wasn't good.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I lost it. A couple of friends had the same cancer.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: I did Larry Hagman. I remember from Dallas, the show,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: and Nick Ashford, Ashford and Simpson. And, you know, I
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: wasn't sure. And I talked about it. It was funny.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: And it was staged for nobody. My friends, they kind
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: of abandoned me, you know, a lot of friends. And
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: I realized with cancer, people don't quite know what to say.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: And it was stage four. They don't know if they're
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: coming to say goodbye or this or that.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: So they just avoided you?
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: They kind of, yeah, they checked me. It was kind
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: of quiet while we were going through the chemo and
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: the radiation. It happens to a lot of people, but
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: they just don't quite know where it's all going. So
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: this one guy, though, Shane Salerno, who I worked with
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: on it, who was a screenwriter, and he'd done an
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: adaption of a script for me a long time ago,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: and I hardly remembered him. But he started sending me
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: these notes, sort of like a coach, you know, just
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: these little notes. You kick it. You can do it.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: You can do it. And I just remember being really
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: touched by it. And then afterwards, he got into more
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: of being a literary agent, and he kept asking me about,
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: you know, to write a book and all of that.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: And I was busy. But then after the cancer things
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: kind of slowed down, I kind of, by order of,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: My order of priorities changed a lot. And so then
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I started thinking about it. And I read a book
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: when I was beginning as a producer called Memo. And
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: it was written by David O. Selznick, a big producer
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: who had gone with the wind and all of that.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: And it was a book that told you what a
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: producer does. And it was basically all of the notes written.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: that David O. Selznick wrote about his pictures, whether it
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: was costumes or props or this or that, all the
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: things that he sort of covered. So I said, you know,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: maybe I'll do like a handbook. I'll take like 12
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: of my movies and I'll tell stories from the very beginning,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: the creations and the process we went through and, you know,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: thinking about it. And also I had my dad, Kirk,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: you know, he had wrote, written nine books already, including
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: a good biography, The Ragman's Son. And I was also thinking, well,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: you know, we're kind of a unique situation here between
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: my father and I. Can't say this about too many,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: two generations. We got 80 years in the business, 120,
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: 130 movies between us. And so there was a legacy,
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: you know, thought going on. But as I got into it,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: I said, I guess I got to talk about the
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: personal stuff too, you know, and you just got to
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: talk about your life and, you know, and the issues
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: and the parts of it, the good and the bad. And, yeah,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: enjoy your ride. It's kind of scary, you know. I
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: started doing it and then saying, do I really want
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: to share all this shit with everybody? You know, I'm like,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: But I figured, you know, why not pass it on
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to my generation and the next. And so it kind
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: of is a combination of my personal life and people
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: who are interested in a lot of different movies about
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: how they happened or how the whole development went. And
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: holy shit, then all of a sudden people liked it.
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: The book's a big hit, you know. It's like, wow.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: I think part of it also is when you start
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: with that handbook idea of just doing it about movies,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: then the producer and the career ambition gets in and says, no,
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: you know, sex, drugs, and rock and roll, man. I mean,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: you know, it still sells. You know, you still got
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: to bring that all up.
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: Well, it's also real. I mean, that was your life.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: You were burdened with youth, good looks, and fame. A
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: gift and a burden at the same time. And... The
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: son of a great man. So there's a lot of
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: pressure on you just because of that.
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, kids can be nasty. I mean, when they know
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: something about your family, when they know who your mother is,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: who your father is, they can make certain assumptions.
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: The nepo baby assumption, right? Yeah.
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: Which, by the way, since we're touching back, Tell me
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: I'm crazy, but isn't just about every single business involving
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Nepo babies? Doesn't every mother and father try to get
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: their son or daughter? Sure.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: Well, certainly like restaurants, it's super common. One of my
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: favorite restaurants is this place, Gaetano's in Las Vegas. The
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: son runs it and the dad started it.
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: Or cleaning businesses or groceries, right? Anything.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: Family businesses.
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know why they picked on celebrity businesses.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Because it's so difficult to acquire. It's such a rare
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: thing that most people are not going to get it.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: And if you get that rare thing just because you're
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: the son of a great man, people get upset at you. Right.
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: Because it's supposed to be this insane struggle through poverty
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: and strife to get to that point where finally you
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: made it.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: Well, my father did that part.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: think people are just jealous and upset.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: That's what I think. Because the history of second generations
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: is not great.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: In our business. No, it's understandable that they would have
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: all these critiques. It's understandable that they would feel bad
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: about it. It's understandable that they would feel that it's
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: not fair.
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:20
  Speaker 2: But they can't say you weren't great.
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: That's the thing. I mean, Gordon Gekko. How many fucking
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: assholes did cocaine and were, like, terrible stockbrokers because of
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: that movie?
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: It was my fault.
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Gordon Gekko was a hero.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: It was so weird. It was so weird afterwards. A
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: picture came out, and every time in New York I'd
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: be around these half-drunk Wall Street guys. You're the man.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: You're the man. I said, what are you talking about?
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: I'm the villain. No, no, no, no, no, no. And
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: it was like, oh, it really was an eye-opener for me. Oh,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: my God, they— love the pizzazz and the clothes. Nothing
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: has any moralities whatsoever. It didn't matter.
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: They wanted that character. You were like Tony Soprano for
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: Italian guys. Like, let's go. Go get it.
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: Take it down.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: Do the coke. Steal the money. They wanted you to
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: wear the most expensive suits possible. That's what they wanted.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: They rooted for a bad guy. It's very interesting. What
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: year was that? What year was Wall Street?
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: 85.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: 85. Wow. So I didn't realize that stockbrokers were crazy
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: until about 88. There was a guy that I used
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: to do martial arts with. He was a really, really
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: crazy guy. And then I ran into him at a
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: bar and he was telling me, it was probably, yeah,
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: probably 88. I was probably 21. He was telling me
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: how he was a stockbroker now, and he just does
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: a bunch of coke, and he's making all this money.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: He was a psychopath. I had known him as a fighter,
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: and he was an animal. And all of a sudden,
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: this guy's just telling me, this is what I'm doing now.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: I'm selling stocks. And he had a nice suit on.
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: It was crazy looking at this person that I always
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: knew as a psychopath, like a scary guy to spar with.
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: And here he is wearing coughs and shit, and he
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: had cufflinks. I was like, this is hilarious. You're doing this?
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: No, I mean, the loudest we all got in clubs,
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: they were following the market's In Asia, you know, at
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: 4 o'clock in the morning, wherever they were, they all
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: got just wired.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Well, they had to stay up, right? And now it's
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: done even crazier where they're moving the servers as close
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: as possible to the actual stock market so they can
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: get trades in like a millisecond quicker. And all those people,
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: Gordon Gekko's their hero.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: No, fight back. It was something.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Greed is good. How many guys got that tattooed on them?
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: How many guys have that, like, framed up on their wall?
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: I guarantee you, quite a few.
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: And, again, you know, all that's happened in the 40
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: years since that movie is the money, the size, the
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: scope that I was dealing with that seemed so enormous
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: at that time is pittance compared to what's– What's going
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: on right now.
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: And now there's other crazy stuff like that, like crypto coins.
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: What are you doing? What are you doing? You got
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: fake money? You got fake money that's worth real money?
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Have you figured it out? I've listened to like three
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: lectures trying to understand it, and I still can't.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: My buddy Kurt Metzger told me that he thinks it's
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: just people that are gambling addicts. It's a new thing
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: to gamble on. And it's also a new thing to
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: rig gambling. So one of the things they can do
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: is like, say, if we develop a Michael Douglas crypto coin,
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: you could do that. And someone would put a bunch
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: of money into that, like, say, a million dollars or
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: five million dollars into this crypto coin. Like this is
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: that we're going to invest in this crypto coin. And
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: then everybody else is your fans buys in and hoping
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: they're going to get out before it crashes because everybody
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: kind of knows it's going to crash. And they pull
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: out the money that was supposed to be for the coin. Immediately.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: And they get it to you.
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a Ponzi scheme.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: Sounds like a Ponzi scheme. Yeah. So you get all
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: this money invested in it. You figure out a way
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: through like offshore corporations or whatever little tricky filters you
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: have to do to suck all that money out. And
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: it's just a way to bribe people.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: What a world.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: What a world.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: It's the Wild West. With that kind of stuff, it's
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: the Wild West. So to me, it's like the stock
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: market on steroids. It's like some new wacky kind of
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: stock market where you're making money. You're making your own money.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: How many fake monies are there or crypto monies are there? Well,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: it's fucking thousands of them.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: And it seems the accessibility and the ability to do
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: it just keeps getting larger. And the disparity, which I
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: think is really the base of issues going on, the
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: disparity of wealth is very, very depressing, very frustrating.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Well, it's certainly frustrating that more people don't have an
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: opportunity to do better in this life and that no
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: one's paying attention to that. That's what I've always said. Like,
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: if you look at the country as a community. you
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: would say, okay, if this is all our friends, this
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: is all people we care about, why are so many
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: of them living in abject poverty for decade upon decade?
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Why is there crime-ridden neighborhoods that never get better? Why
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: is there gang-ridden neighborhoods that never get better? Well, they've
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: been ignored. We could throw resources at that the same
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: way we threw resources at rebuilding Iraq. You know what
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: I mean? We could throw resources at fixing these spots
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: and wait out.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: No.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: And that's why people get really mad. And that's why
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: people get almost cheer on when Luigi shoots that UnitedHealthcare guy.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: People are like, yeah, fuck you. It's falling down all
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: over again.
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: All over again.
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, same kind of thing.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: It comes down to, I mean, like 50% of Americans
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: own stocks and 50% do not. And if you look
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: at stocks, the way the market has gone, however it's
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: controlled or whatever happens progressively, It's compounding versus the 50
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: percent of people who don't have stocks living on a paycheck,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: which is getting smaller and smaller with inflation. Yeah.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: So it's a goofy time. And then on top of that,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: they're talking about AI taking away everybody's jobs. And there
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be any real clear path to mitigating
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: the massive effect that that's going to have on the
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: economy and all these people that are going to be unemployed. Right. Right.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: It's a weird thing we're in the middle of right now.
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: Well, I had a guy who came and lectured me
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: when I was in college, a guy named Buckminster Fuller.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: And he was the guy responsible for the geodesic dome
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: and all of that. But the other thing he did,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: he had a book called Spaceship Earth. And to me,
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: at a young age at the time, he really made
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: it clear how tiny this little planet is and how
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: And all with our Hubble telescopes that we're looking at
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: further and further. I'm sure there's got to be something
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: else out there in the universe. And maybe we will.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: But right now, this is it. This is it. This
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: is it. And it's beginning to kind of crumble worldwide,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: you know, with the climate and all of this. And
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: so I find it hard to understand after two major
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: world wars and having this this period of relative peace,
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: that things are beginning to really crack again. And how
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: individual countries, and we talk about, you know, the U.S.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: being the most powerful, but we all got to work together.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: We got to. There should be no more. There's no
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: reason for any more wars. And yet there's more conflict
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: going on than ever, ever before. Who's the cause of it?
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: Some people say social media is designed to create conflict
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: or create enemies, but it just can't be. We've got
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: to get over this and just all begin to try
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: to work together. And that's why I support a couple
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: of organizations that I know are not most popular right now,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: but are greatly conceived. The United Nations is one of them.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: I think it was designed after World War II to
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: have a place for us to get together. I know
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the U.S. gets pissed off sometimes when votes don't go
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: their way. They'll financially support it. It has issues. But
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: we have to work on the whole world understanding what's happening.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: I get nervous when I see Musk looking for all
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: these guys looking for planets to move to. Like they
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: already know something I don't know. You know, like It's
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: already passed. We've got to get out of here. It's
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: of concern.
• 18:19
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  Speaker 2: the products being advertised are intended for a United States audience. Well,
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: it is a concern. I think they're looking to other planets,
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: first of all, because it's very difficult to do. And
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: people always want to be the first to do something,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: to colonize a planet. But also because we all feel
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: like at any moment now this could all go sideways
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: and that there could be a nuclear conflict in the
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: war and it could ignite. And it could be terrifying.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: And the thing is, much like we were talking about
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: falling down, if you watch that film and you see
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: the issues he was dealing with then, it's the same
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: issues we're dealing with today. It's the same thing with war.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: It always seems to go into this pattern, and it's
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: always the same thing. It's always leaders and people who
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: control those. leaders who want access to resources and control resources.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: And we let those people dictate what happens in the
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: world because it's a very small amount of people affecting
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: a very large amount of people. And the only hope
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: is that we all together figure that out. Because I
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: don't think people were even completely aware of that in
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: this country until probably like the 60s and the 70s.
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: People started thinking that the government does not have our
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: best interest in mind. And especially during Vietnam, this is
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: a fucking crazy war that makes no sense. And even today,
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: no one thinks it was a good idea to go
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: in there. How many people died? And I think more
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: people are aware of that. The whole thing is more
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: transparent now than it's ever been before, which I think
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: is a good sign. I wish we learned quicker, but
• 20:34
  Speaker 2: we don't. We learn slowly. But I think we're learning.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: Well, I hope so. I mean, when I look back
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: at my father's career in post-World War II, where characters
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: were the good guys, the bad guys, white hats or
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: black hats, villains and everything, And then I grew up,
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: and then the Vietnam War and all that, so I've
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: always been fascinated in this gray area. So it's hard
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: sometimes to know the morality choice or what's right or wrong.
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: This is what's frustrating. But you brought up a point, Joe,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: which I'd like to raise and maybe get your advice.
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: One of my earliest pictures that I did was the
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: China Syndrome. The China Syndrome was about a nuclear meltdown
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: in a power plant. And we were under a lot
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: of critical, claim we being myself, Jane Fonda, who was
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: also a producing partner at that time, about our credibility
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: and how irresponsible it was. And GE was pushing us
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: about nuclear power and all of that. And the movie
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: came out and was a successful film. You know, it
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: did very well. but still criticized. And then 12 days
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: after the movie came out, Three Mile Island happened in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: And I had like an epiphany. I'm not a religious guy,
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: but I felt like somebody was telling me something. And
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: so I became involved in understanding more about nuclear weapons
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: and plutonium and the half-life and all of this and
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: it followed through our nuclear conflicts with Russia. And I
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: want to make a suggestion to you because you maybe
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: have some connections to the president. This war, this Ukraine-Russian war,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: and the effort to find an answer to it, and
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: an effort for the president to win the Nobel Peace Prize.
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: And my idea is I don't know what Putin has
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: on Trump or what this connection is or why Trump
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: always feels like he's got to reach out to help Putin.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: 93% of our country, Republicans and Democrats, don't like Putin.
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: It's one of the few things that really aligns us together.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: So why don't we try in making peace in Ukraine,
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: which gave up nuclear weapons— They gave up their nuclear weapon.
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: Why doesn't Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin dramatically reduce, if
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: not give up, our nuclear stockpiles? Obviously, the other six
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: or seven countries that have a very minimal amount of
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: nuclear weapons would have to be. This could be the
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: greatest thing that would happen in our generation. And in
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: terms of settling this peace, making peace in Ukraine— and
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: where Ukraine may have to give up some territory, I
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: am hoping that President Trump could make a deal with Putin, say,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: you know what, U.S., Russia, let's give up our weapons
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: because it's totally obsolete. There's no need, there's no question
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: about it because these weapons would just destroy the world.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: It's mutual assured destruction. If he can do that, and
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: he could, if he spent the next three years of
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: his presidency negotiating with Putin, we could get rid of
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: nuclear weapons, and I guarantee I would commit my life
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: for him getting that Nobel Peace Prize because he would
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: deserve it.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: It's a great utopian idea. I agree with you. It
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: would be awesome if there was no nuclear weapons, if
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: we all agreed as a species, as the human civilization,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: that there's no need to have something that can kill
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: every man, woman, child, every animal and plant on Earth
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: many times over. I mean, the amount of weapons that
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: we have today are absurd. If we all together, the
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: whole world, China, Russia, United States, all the other countries
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: just launched all their bombs at once, just imagine what
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: the world would look like when it's over.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: It would be over, wouldn't it?
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: There would be no world. It would be on fire.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: It would be a glowing orb. We're crazy that we
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: even have that kind of stuff. However, I don't ever
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: think that any country that has a military is going
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: to give up. all their nuclear weapons, if there are
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: nuclear weapons out there in the world, and how would
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: you be able to assure? One of the things they're
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: always terrified about is, I mean, this was one of
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: the big conspiracy theories. Do you remember that New Jersey
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: drone thing that was going on? One of the crazy
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: conspiracies was that they were using these drones to search
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: for a missing bomb, and that there was a bomb
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: or some nuclear device that was unaccounted for. And so
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: those were United States military drones that are very sophisticated,
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: top secret stuff. I don't know what's true or not.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: But I do know that they don't exactly know where
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: all the bombs are all over the world. And the
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: idea that you would give up your nuclear weapons while
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: weapons still exist is highly unlikely.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Well, but is this what AI is supposed to be doing?
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: That's what I was going to get to.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: I think the only way we're really going to get
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: out of this is this is terrifying for biological human beings.
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: is to let AI control government and resources. And it
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: would have to have already become sentient, and it would
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: have to already exhibit superintelligence, reason, and logic, and it
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: would just evenly distribute resources amongst all the people.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: Because when you look at the budgets alone, just for
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: our nuclear programs, we can solve the defense budgets in
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: this day and age. versus our budget for humanitarian purposes
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: is absurd. I mean, it comes down to all people want, really,
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: you know, is that roof over their head, housing and food? And,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: you know, so all this money could be shifted over
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: into other programs that would stop the need for Africans
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to have to immigrate. You know, we have to... can
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: restore areas of the world that are much more impoverished
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: than us because this disparity of have and have-nots is
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: going to create another world war.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: They would never do this, but here's a way that
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: you could make sure that something like this never happened.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: Think about all the money that comes from resources, like
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: Earth's resources, whether it's oil, minerals, all these different things.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: That is a part of the earth and it's earths.
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: So if you made a law where all natural resources
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: drawn from the earth, like oil, will be evenly distributed
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: amongst the population of that city. You know, minus operating costs,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: everything else gets evenly distributed amongst people because it is
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: the human races. If we are all citizens of this earth,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: then the earth's resources should be shared by all of us.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: Like there's people that want to charge you for air.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: They think it's a good idea to charge you for
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: clean air. There's people that charge you for water. You
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: have a water bill. Like someone owns the water. They
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: charge you for the water. Like all that stuff should
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: be the property of the human beings that live in
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: that place. Imagine how much that would transform the places
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: that have diamond mines. Imagine how much that would transform
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: the places that are rich in oil money. We have
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: these monarchies that are controlling vast populations.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: Because they were the first persons or their ancestors were
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: the first persons to dig into the ground and pull
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: up the oil. It's kind of crazy. You are insanely
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: wealthy because you're sucking the lifeblood out of the earth,
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: which really should kind of be everyone's. Especially when they
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: do shit like they go offshore and they're drilling offshore.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Where the fuck are you even? You're not even in
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: America anymore. Like, what is this?
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: Amen.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: You're stealing from the earth. And then it lets you
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: buy weapons and lets you, you know, a lot of
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: these people that are involved in these immense corporations are
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: involved in many immense corporations. And the amount of money
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: that they're making is kind of fucking kooky. And when
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: they have massive influence on politicians and when politicians are
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: allowed to, like, trade stocks. where they have insider information
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: and they're making fucking hundreds of millions of dollars on
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: a $ 170, 000 a year salary. So all these things compound,
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: they compound and you get to the point where you're like,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know if this could be fixed.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: And that's what they like. They like us in a
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: state of, I don't know if this can be fixed.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Because that way you're like, oh, what are you going
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: to do?
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Hands up.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: So like you have your LA mayor race, you get
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: a vote for communism or communism. Good luck.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: You got fucked and you're going to have to. And
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: everybody's like, wow, what are you going to do? And
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: people don't know what to do. And then more taxes
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: are going to come like, I don't want to pay it,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: but I don't want to move. And they'll just keep
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: getting fucked. And this is unfortunately where they like us
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: to be. I think it's one of the things about
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: people that are in control and people that are the
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: wealthiest amongst us that are operating in this very nefarious way.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: They do like it when we're mad at each other.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: They do like it when we're divided over the dumbest shit,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: over gender pronouns or fucking whatever it is, what nationality
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: you are, what your religion is, whatever it is. They
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: love it when we're at each other's throats. When most
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: of the things that everybody wants we all agree on
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: and we all agree that the system that's in place
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: right now is really not looking out for everybody.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Not at all.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: It's just not?
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: No. No. No, it's not.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Never was there people campaigning about fixing inner cities, like
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: a presidential campaign, like with a plan. Like we have
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: these areas that have traditionally been impoverished and gang-ridden and crime-ridden.
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: We can allocate resources. This is the multi-step program over
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: the next five years that we're going to do to
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: radically increase the amount of opportunities these young people have,
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: increase their access to education. increase their access to community
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: centers and places that will give them purpose and meaning.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Like that, you could change millions of lives in this country.
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: You can. It means changing your budgetary premise of what's important,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: and that's the part that's been difficult.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: That's where Dr. AI is going to come in. AI
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: is going to be like Dr.
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: Manhattan. With the rails. With the rails. I mean, we
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: can't do like this last go around with the social–
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: social network stuff, which was out of control before anybody
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: had a chance to do it. And it's interesting. I'm
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: understanding how the triggers work. Most of the stuff is
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: based on finding conflict. So you look at all this stuff,
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: and it makes you have more enemies, or it makes
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: you get divisive rather than coming together. Something happened, Joe,
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe just by imagination, but even going
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: back to Reagan, Reagan Republicans and a different time just
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: were politicians. Politicians were like public servants. It was a
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: commitment you made to the country, you know, to yourself.
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: And now it's just sort of a profit center. The
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: amount of money involved in politics and then these guys
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: turning around and becoming lobbyists and all the insider kind
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: of trading going on. The corruption of this brilliant system.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: The last thing I really did, I played Ben Franklin
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: in a show when he was in France. I got
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: into looking back at the Constitution and everything. What a
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: brilliant piece of legislature this thing was. It was incredible.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: It was so idealistic. Now to watch it just over,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: not just this administration, but it's been going on for
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: a while, get so corrupted. I used to think of
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: You know, politicians is almost like the clergy. You know,
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: they were people to look up to. And now I
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: don't want to get into local politics here in Texas
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: right now. There's a couple of people running for office
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: that are just like, come on, man, you can do
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: better than that.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: I agree with you. And what's supposed to happen in
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: those situations is the person who should have been a
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: better candidate is supposed to lose. Because you should have
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: had a better candidate to run against this other guy.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: And that should rally people to do better. That's supposedly
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: what the system is based on. It's not supposed to
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: be based on your side winning every time. It's supposed
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: to be based on some sort of an understanding that
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: people have opinions. And if their expectations aren't met, there's consequences.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: And people don't like corruption. And they don't like bullshit.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: And they don't like people fucking with their lives. And
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: sometimes you vote one way and you think, well, this
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: is going to be better this way. And it turns out, nope,
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: same shit. Okay, well, someone's got to do better. Fuck
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: that guy. And you hope eventually a hero will rise.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: But you know, so much, I think, I don't know
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: the exact statistics, but I think generationally, I'm a Democrat
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: because my mother and father were Democrats before. It takes
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: an effort to maybe change parties. And the Republicans, Republicans,
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: because their mothers were fathers. One of the questions I
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: want to ask you is you supported Bernie Sanders at
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: one time in your life. And you seem to have
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: a much more open mind and ability to change and alter.
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people just sort of
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: follow that political party generationally because their families did.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I think— We have a real problem with having
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: two distinct different parties only. I don't think that's healthy
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: for us. I think it enhances this tendency that we
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: have to be very tribal and to have this us
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: versus them thing and to ignore all the craziness that
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: our side is doing because it's our side. And for me,
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: it was, first of all, The open border was insane.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: It was insane to just not only leave the border open,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: but give people instructions on how to get in and
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: also transport them to cities and then put them up
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: in hotels. It was really clear that a game was
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: being played. You could speculate all you want as to
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: what that game was. Was it for cheap labor? Was
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: it to turn these people into citizens and have them
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: permanently voting your side because you helped them and let
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: them in? I don't know what it is. but it
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: was something, was it to beef up the census by
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: having all these people move into areas that were swing states,
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: and then you would have many more people, and then
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: these more people would count for more congressional seats. That
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: could be it too. I don't know what it is,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: but it's fucking insane. And if you want me to
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: be a Democrat while you're just letting people fly in
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: from the open border, I'm going, hey, fix that. It
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: seems crazy to have 10 million people of unknown origin
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: enter into your country Yeah. Over a period of four
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: billion years.
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Or excuse me, four years. But then you've also got
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: the fact that they haven't had a primary since 2012. Yeah. Like,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: how do you how are you just slipping this? The
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: whole thing is supposed to work a very specific way.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: And if it's like we have to win. So we're
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: just going to push that aside. And you're going to
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: here's your candidate.
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: What the fuck are you doing? That's not how it's
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: supposed to be done.
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: And if you want me to vote for that, I'm
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: not going to vote for that.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: That seems crazy. It seems dangerous. You know that Biden
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: wasn't the fucking president for four years. It's really clear
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: that he was his mental ability was severely declined. He
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: was compromised. There was clearly you'd hear him talk. There's
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: something wrong. And then they gaslit us for four fucking
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: years while whoever is behind the scenes, unelected, is actually
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: running the country.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: And I didn't want to keep that going. I thought
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: that's dangerous. I didn't like the whole COVID vaccine mandatory
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: thing that they were pushing for those four years. I
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: didn't like the coercion. I didn't like keeping people from flying.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I didn't like any of that stuff. It was all crazy.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: And to me, that's what that group stood for. What
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Trump stood for. Some of it turned out to not
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: be real. Like one of them was the no wars. Well, look,
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: we're at a war with Iran. So that wasn't real.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: The other thing was closing the border. That is real.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: But then with that, then you have the, you know,
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: Tim Dillon had a great description of ICE. He said
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: former backyard carnival wrestlers who took like a seven-week course.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: I love this.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: It's nuts to just give someone a $ 50, 000 signing bonus,
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: you train them for seven weeks, and then give them guns,
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: and you have a militarized force running through the fucking
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: city streets.
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: And put a mask on your face.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: And put a mask on your face. Look, I can
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: understand why they have to put a mask on their face,
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: because they get targeted, but it's also, it's like, we're
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: setting a weird precedent if you allow a militarized force
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: to just go through the cities with no identification. They
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: don't have to have identification. So I understand that you're
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: trying to get out violent criminals and I support that.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: I get that. But when you have a you're setting
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: a precedent, if you allow a militarized police force with
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: no identification with masks on to enter into cities, of course,
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: people are going to say this is an overstep. Of course.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: It seems crazy.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And and your local police departments, you know, feel
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: that same way, too.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Sure, some of them do. I mean, some of them
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: are dealing with, like, the trend of Aragba gangs that
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: were taking over apartment complexes in Colorado. And they're allowed
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: to do that because it was some sort of a
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: sanctuary city. There's a lot of craziness that was going
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: on during those four years. And I was like, hey,
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: this is fucking dangerous. This can go really sideways. And
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: there was all that. fucking defund the police stuff. Like, hey, hey, hey,
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: hit the brakes on that. Defunding the fucking police is crazy.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Do you know how much crime there is? Yeah it's
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: also the tendency to let people go when they've committed
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: violent crimes and to put them right back on the
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: street with no cash bail like That's not a good
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: idea None of these are good ideas And if you
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: want me to support all these terrible fucking ideas just
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: because I would be a good person I'd be a
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Democrat like no, it doesn't make any sense That's how I.
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Felt I know that's how you felt. What I'm curious
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: about is how do you feel now?
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: Well, how I feel now is I do not like
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: this Iran war in any way, shape, or form. It
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense for us.
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: It seems like— It's getting really out of hand.
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: They were trying to get every single president, including Trump,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: in his first term to do this.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: And now we've done it, and it's very clear. It's
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: a giant quagmire. It's very clear there's no easy way out.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Not good.
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: No.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: And there's still a lot of people that insist that
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: it had to happen, that Iran was the greatest funder
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: of state terrorism in the world and that what they
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: were doing was, you know, funding and arming these forces
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: and having them do these terrorist attacks. And I'm sure
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: a lot of that's true.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: I concur. But but but they seem pretty smart in
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: how they've been handling this. And as we saw now,
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: you know, in Saudi Arabia, I mean, you know, it's
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: a rehab. Rehab, it's like, you know, your major Austin airport, JFK, rehab. Airport,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: they're getting it. It's opening up. It's getting bigger and bigger.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, it's scary shit.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised with all of our Western intelligence and Israeli's
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: intelligence that we have not had a better handle on
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: the situation.
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: Well, look, obviously I'm not an expert on international relations.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: But I don't think the picture that they painted of
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: how this was going to go down was even remotely accurate.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: I think if they had gone in during the time
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: where people were protesting in the streets, that would have
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: been a completely different experience. Like that was the opportunity.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: If they really were going to do this from the beginning,
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: that would have been the opportunity. When the Iranian people
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: organically protest– I don't know if it's organic. I don't
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: live there. But, I mean, we know for a fact
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: that there was a massive government crackdown on those people.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: A lot of people were killed. A lot of people
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: were jailed forever.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think it was instigated by Israel, by
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: the fact that they had information that these key Iranian
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: leaders would all be together and were persuaded that we
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: take them all out, we can turn it over. Yeah.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: It didn't turn out that way. No.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: And there was a lot of people that were very
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: skeptical of that from the moment that it was proposed.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know how they convinced Trump to do it.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: And I do know that in any international conflict, I'm
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: sure even during Vietnam, even after people kind of knew
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: the Gulf of Tonkin was horseshit, there was– I'm sure
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: there's people even today that defend the Vietnam War. I'm sure.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: You're always going to be able to find people that
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: will propose an argument whether someone has instructed them to
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: do this or whether this is how they actually feel
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: or whether they just like to argue and get on
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: television and be the contrarian. You're going to get people
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: that support this war. But I think the majority of
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: the United States felt like one of the things that
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: we were voting for when we voted for Trump is
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: no more wars. Stop this shit. Like it's crazy. I
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: remember one of his speeches or one of his interviews,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: someone was asking about Ukraine. Do you want Ukraine to win?
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: Do you want Russia to win? He said, I just
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: want people to stop dying.
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Most people who voted for him based on that feel
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: very upset that there's a new war going on.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: But again, I don't– I'm not a fucking expert. And
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: so the problem is if you listen to people that
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: actually understand missile production, they do say that Iran was
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: ramping up their missile production and that they– if they
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: had gotten a nuclear bomb, it would have been a
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: fucking terrifying scenario.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. That's true, too.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Well, it goes back to my point of why President
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Trump should get the Nobel Peace Prize next time.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: Maybe go meet with him. Maybe go sit him down
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: and go listen, buddy. It's just Putin's never going to
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: fucking do it. He's never going to give up all
• 44:00
  Speaker 2: his nukes. He seems like he really enjoys having complete
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: and total power.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: He loves the— Like every king.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: And emperor before him. You know, he's essentially a king.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: And the unpredictability feeling and everything. But I think he
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: gets squeezed.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Just got to get them all on acid, right?
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: Get them all in a room together.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Give them each seven grams of mushrooms. Put on some
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: psychedelic music. Have them all lie down on beanbags.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Right. No, that was the biggest move in my life.
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: I was born in New Jersey, too. What part of
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: New Jersey were you born? New Brunswick. I was born
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: in New Brunswick. In a different format, it's kind of interesting.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: A little background on my family, but my mother was
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: English from the island of Bermuda. And her family had
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: been in Bermuda, this little tiny island, for 400 years, right?
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: And she lied about her age at 16. She wanted
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: to be an actress, and she went to New York,
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: went to acting school. And she met my father, kind
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: of opposites attract to each other. And they had a
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: little apartment. They got together. And my mother's oldest sister,
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: my mother was one of six kids, my mother's oldest
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: sister married this guy, Seward Johnson. Seward Johnson was the
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: founder of Johnson & Johnson, along with his brother, right?
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: So it just happened that way. So they were living as,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: you know, starving actors in a little one-room apartment in
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: New York. And out in New Brunswick was the Johnson Castle.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: You know, he lived in a castle out there with
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: my Aunt Ruth, Mike. And then they got divorced, and
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: when they got divorced, they both had moved out of
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: the castle. So it turned out that my mother and father,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: on weekends, would go out to New Brunswick and get
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: to stay in the castle. It was his sister's place
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: all along. And she was pregnant, and I just happened
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: to come early, so I was born in New Brunswick
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: rather than in New York City. Wow. So that was
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: how it came about. But I found a lot of
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: interesting things in this book it brought me. I also
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: thought with my grandfather, my grandfather on my father's side
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: was from Belarus. It was part of Russia back in
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: the turn of the century, 1900. And I always thought
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: that my grandfather had left like 1914, time of the
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: Russian Revolution, you know, it was going on. The Cossacks
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: are rounding up all the Jews, putting them in these pogroms,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: and they're escaping. And then I did that Henry Gates
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: Find Your Roots show, you know, on television and everything else.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: They did all this homework, and they found out, no, no,
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: your grandfather left in 1902. I really said, yeah, because
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: he had two other brothers who were bank robbers. And...
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: in Belarus in this area. And they'd gone into jail
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: and the other brother, your grandfather, he got out in 1902.
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: And that's why he came to the country and he
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: changed his name. And then the irony is that the
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: area in Belarus that they came from was right near Chernobyl.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: Chernobyl in Ukraine, that terrible explosion disaster is right on
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: the border with the Belarus area and the little town
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: that they came from. And it was downwind. So the
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: town where my family came from is part of that
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: dead area. Whoa. Now it's just, you know, close up.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: And that was sort of.
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: It's still dead? Can you visit it now? No. Wow.
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: No, it's weird doing all these... How long is it
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: fucked for? Um....
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Probably like 100,000 years or something.
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: Isn't that wild? They're doing all these tests on these
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: dogs and everything that's left around there. Those dogs are
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: going to read your mind. Exactly. Mr.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Douglas, can you get me some food, please?
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: Right. So they was, you know, and so I grew up, well,
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: they ended up getting married, my mother and my father,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: kind of opposites, you know, she was Church of England,
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: very good family. He's a Russian Jew. His father's a
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: junk man. He's got six sisters. He's just trying to
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: get the hell out of Schenectady, New York, and begin
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: his life. And so he starts that, and they met
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: from acting school, and then he gets off. I have
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: a brother who I'm thrilled The baby's 18 months old, Joel.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: And we go to California. He starts his career in
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: California in less than a year, you know. He's married
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: to my mother, but he's out fucking everything, you know.
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: And mom says, this is not working out, okay. He was,
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: you know, Hollywood just.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: He was one of the first movie stars. You stop
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: and think about it.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Well, that generation, yeah. But he was after Humphrey Bogart.
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: Right, but it was a recent thing in culture is
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: my point. It was only like 10 or 15 years
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: old being a movie star. It was a new thing.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: It was. And so I moved back east and grew
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: up back east with my mother. And Dad was in California.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: And over the years, I'd go out and There were
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: a lot of experiences between these two lives. It was
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: very middle-class life, very middle-class life back east. My mother
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: did soap operas. She was an actress. And then Dad
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: was continuing to grow, and I met him. Anyway, my
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: point is that I was in private boys' schools back east,
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: all boys' schools, right through high school. And... I remember
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: going into the college advisor. You know, when you're in
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: high school, you got a guy, an advisor. He's like,
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: he's sort of like a travel agent. You know, he's
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: got these brochures of different schools he's showing you. And
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: my ass was tight. I didn't really know what the hell,
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to do. And I'm looking at
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: these Ivy League schools and these brochures. And then I see,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: I stopped. Wait a minute. What's that? And he hands
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: me this brochure and it says, Camp is by the sea.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: And then I'm looking at, there's no Ivy League buildings,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: but there's a picture of the cover of this college
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: thing of a guy walking down the beach carrying a
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: surfboard with two girls in two-piece bathing suits. Joe, this
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: was 1962. If you'll remember, there were no two-piece bathing
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: suits back east, you know. And so this was the
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: University of California at Santa Barbara, Santa Barbara, California. So
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: I'm this preppy, you know, total preppy kid. I go out.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: Of course, dad thinks, ah, my son wants to be
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: closer to me. This is why he's coming out, right?
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: So I go out there and in one year, boom, 62, 63,
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: I go from a preppy to a hippie. And so
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: I have to support what you're saying because I found
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: that hallucinogenics were an extraordinary experience and were an important
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: part of my life but I got busy didn't have
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: the time but the rhythm that they taught me and
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: the visualities and their pace played an important part and
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: I'm so grateful I'm 82 now to see in these
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: recent years that in terms of PTSD and other issues
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: that they are beginning to find— Drug addiction. Sorry?
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: Drug addiction.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: Drug addiction. Yeah. They're finding a positive use.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: Well, that is one thing that I have to give
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: credit to Trump for because I discussed this with him,
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: and he said, are you looking for FDA approval? Let's
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: do it. And immediately started pushing for the psychedelic therapies,
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: particularly Ibogaine, which is— extremely effective for soldiers for people
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: dealing with traumatic brain injuries and PTSD and it's extremely
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: effective for a lot of people also with drug addictions
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: and Helps rewire the brains even the symptoms of addictions
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: go away after you take it and that is I
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: give him credit for that as a very powerful thing
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: that he did because it's it's very much resisted by
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: pharmaceutical drug companies that are worried about not being able
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: to profit on it. And there's a bunch of them
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: that have now moved into psychedelic spaces now. They're making
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: options and trying to figure out how they can become
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: a part of this in terms of profiting off of
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: it once it actually becomes legal, which is okay. It's
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: just as long as it becomes legal. As long as
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: it becomes legal, because I don't think it's for everybody,
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: but it was definitely for me. helped me a lot,
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: changed who I am, changed the way I think about things,
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: changed my whole defining of myself kind of went away.
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: It is a very profound experience. And I think there's
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: a lot of people that are trapped in their definitions
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: of who they are. And whether it's your own personal
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: ones or the ideology that you've attached yourself to that
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: you identify with, it's a huge part of your life.
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: I think it's a trap. And I think we all
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: fall into that trap. And I think one of the
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: things that psychedelics help you do is recognize why you're
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: doing what you're doing and what's really going on inside
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: your mind, unburdened by your ego, unburdened by all of
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: the protective mechanisms that your brain has put in place
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: to protect you from your own shitty decisions and to
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: justify them and to continue down the same path. And
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: that's why it's so good with stopping addictions, because it
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: makes you go, what the fuck am I gambling for? Like,
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: what am I doing? Why do I keep going to
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: the casino and losing everything? What the fuck is this? Like, oh,
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: this is my childhood. This is my dad wasn't around.
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: This is my mom was a junkie. This is this
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: is I got beaten. This is I got abused. Whatever
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: it is, it's like then you realize, like, oh, that's
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: when I'm hiding. Yeah. I'm trying to do something, whether
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: it's drown myself in alcohol or. Whatever it is, it's
• 55:14
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• 55:51
  Speaker 1: And what went along with that culture at that time
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: and it all sounds like a cliche now, but was
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: peace and love and community. Economy wasn't, you know, people
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: were not looking for how much money they made. They
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: shared stuff. There was a communal... Well, in your neighborhood.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Where you were hanging out.
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: You're hanging out with hippies.
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. I'm saying, yeah. But that philosophy... Yeah. It
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: needs to be perpetuated. Yeah.
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: It was unique. And I think that if Nixon hadn't
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: passed the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 and made all
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: that stuff illegal, it would have changed the world. I
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: think it would have gradually– I think we would have
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: figured out how to do it correctly. I think there
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: was a lot of people that were going overboard. There
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: was a lot of people that were going straight Timothy
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: Leary and they were just tuning out and no longer
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: a part of society. But a lot of people balanced
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: the ship. And you got to give people time. To
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: understand what these things are and have enough time where
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: people are studying them and they know effective doses and
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: they know reliable distributors. So this is pure stuff, whatever
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: it is. It shouldn't be illegal. It should probably be
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: regulated in the sense that I don't think like people
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: under a certain age should have access to any of
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: these things that distort your consciousness because I think it
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: could be detrimental. And there's also going to be a
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: certain percentage of our population that goes schizophrenic. And I
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: think particularly there's a lot of evidence that marijuana, particularly edibles,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: can trigger schizophrenia in people that are at least on
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: the border or, you know, slipping into it.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: Well, the strength of it alone. I mean, I was
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: in 19 until I smoked pot. I mean, now between
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: how much stronger it is and kids at 13 years old,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: you're killing your endorphin system, you know. In fact, so
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: I agree with you.
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: But I think the idea that the government is going
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: to protect you from that while also licensing oxycodone is
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: fucking ridiculous. They're not protecting you from jack shit. Not
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: only that, they've never experienced it, so they don't even
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: know what they're protecting you from. It's like there's a
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: guy who's guarding the door where God lives. And he's like,
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: I can't let you in. You can't handle it. Well,
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: have you gone in? No. Well, how the fuck do
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: you know if I can handle it? You don't know.
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: If you've done it and you've had positive experiences. And
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: one of the beautiful things about Texas is former Governor
• 58:27
  Speaker 2: Rick Perry, where Governor Rick Perry has had these experiences
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: and it completely changed him. When he was a younger man,
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: he was staunchly anti-drugs. He thought psychedelics were for losers
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: and ne'er-do-wells. He has Ibogaine experiences. He's completely dedicated his
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: entire life to trying to promote this and make this
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: stuff legal now. That's what he does now in retirement,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: no longer being the governor. Americans for Ibogaine is they're
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: trying to do this push where they're doing it all
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: over the country and then they're even visiting other countries
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: now that are interested in it because they've seen them speak.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: They've seen them talk about it on my podcast and
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: they've seen what happened at the White House. And other
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: countries are interested, too. They went, well, what is this
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: and why is it illegal and what's going on and
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: what are the benefits? And so they're having speeches. They're
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: giving speeches in other countries as well. And hopefully I
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: think that could change a lot. I think some of
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: the progress that people were making in terms of realizing
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: like the way that we're living is insane in the 1960s.
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Why don't we try something that's like more open-ended? Let's
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: be more open-minded. Let's try to be kinder with each other. Unfortunately,
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: that's also– there's a lot of evidence that the CIA
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: put the kibosh on that and that they realized that
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: this was a very dangerous movement and so to them
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: and their power. So that's how they empower the Charles
• 59:51
  Speaker 2: Manson family. And they did a lot of things to
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: make hippies look like psychopaths and dangerous and drugs are dangerous.
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: and they were really good at it back then. There
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: was no internet. You could just put things on television,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: and people would believe it. Put it in a newspaper,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: people would believe it.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: I had a run-in with the Manson family.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: Did you really?
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We talk about it in the book. The Manson family,
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: when that terrible murders happened, was actually looking for a
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: guy named Terry Melcher, Terry Melcher was Doris Day's son,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: and he was a rock and roll producer. And Charlie Manson,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: you know, was a musician, and he believed he had
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: some talent. And the girls sometimes would be used by him,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: you know, to have fun or something like that to
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: make it happen. Anyway, he was pissed off at Charlie Manson.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: And he thought he was living in the house where
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: Sharon Tate and the other ones were. I was living
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: in the house at the time that Terry Melcher had
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: been living. And he left. I rented the house. He
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: got out and rented it. And we finally, I was
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: with an actress named Brenda Vaccaro. Early in my life,
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: she did a movie called Midnight Cowboy. I remember her.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: And we noticed this van that used to be parked
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: outside my house in L.A. And one day she had
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: two Abyssinian cats, two beautiful Abyssinian cats. And I went
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: out one day in the patio in the back and
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: I found this pile of fur in a pile. And
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: then I followed it and then I saw a cat's leg.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: And then basically these guys had dismembered her two cats
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: all the way across the yard. And I remember talking
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: to the police, you know, what was going on. And
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: then right after that, then the Manson murders happened and
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: they tied it together. And I remember them coming into
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: the house and saying, okay, well, look, he said, You
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: got to get a gun, which I did not. But
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: he said if they come up, make sure you drag
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: them across your front door so they're in your house.
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: Well, great advice. Before you kill them, you got to
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: bring them inside.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: You didn't get a gun, huh?
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: Did you think about it at all?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: I have, but I'm– yeah, I've thought about it, but
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: I've just seen– I've just seen too much personal knowledge
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: of people hurting each other. For whatever chance there was
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: to protect yourself, too many family members have been injured
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: and guns have been used in other ways. So I'm
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: not a gun. I'm very much, I think, our statistics
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: of gun control are not good. We have, what, 360
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: million people in the country. I think we got 450
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: million guns. Our murder rate compared to any other sophisticated
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: country with guns is so, so high. I can't find
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: any reason for somebody to own an automatic military-style weapon.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: And I guess most of all, I understand the amendments
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: and support it. But, you know, you've got to have
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: a license to drive a car. There's certain things you've
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: got to pass. And there's just loopholes. I respect anybody.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: They want to have a gun. They can have a gun.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: But we've had too many loopholes in the law that
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: have allowed too many people just as You worry about
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: people coming across the border illegally. I really worry about
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: a lot of illegal people having guns.
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. You should. Yeah. But responsible gun ownership for
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: someone like yourself would be to protect your life against
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: a dangerous person with a gun.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: I would never assume that you would ever do anything
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: bad with a gun. So would you worry that one
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: of your family members would do something bad with a gun?
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: By accident. By accident. My father had a gun in
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: his hand. My father... And his bedroom had a gun,
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: and he had it down on a table down below.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: And I remember when my son came to the house
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: when David was like five years old and picked it up.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: Oh, Jesus.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm talking about.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, responsible gun ownership. You know, the gun should
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: be in a safe.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: And safes exist.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: And, you know, I don't— I respect that. Yeah.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: I respect the right of the choice, but I'm just
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: saying— I don't know what anybody needs an automatic weapon
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: for or a military-style weapon for.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 2: There are some people that worry that things could go
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: completely sideways and that they would be stuck in a
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: place where they couldn't defend themselves. And I think one
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: of those fears came to light during the George Floyd
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: protests when there was a lot of chaos and people
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: were breaking into buildings and lighting them on fire and
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 2: breaking into people's homes. And it seems like the riots
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: were in a frenzy. And I think in that kind
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: of a situation, people would want a military-style gun to
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: protect themselves from a mob of people. I mean, I
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: understand why they would want it. I'm not advocating that
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: everyone should have a machine gun, but I understand why
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: some people who are particularly paranoid and or worried that
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: things could go sideways again and be much worse than before.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: That's what I think people worry about. And then they
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: worry about places where people have no guns and They
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: can't do jack shit when things go sideways. That scares
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: the fuck out of people as well. You know, when
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: we see what's happening in Paris right now, we see
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: what's happening in some parts of England. It scares people.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Sure. You know?
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: And that's why they want a machine gun. You know?
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: I respect that you didn't want one, but I would,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: if I was your friend, I would talk you into
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: getting one and learning how to use it properly and
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: learning how to keep it in your home safe and
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: locked up to protect your family. The worst thing you'd
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: want to do is be in a situation where you
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: could have protected your family if you had a gun
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: and you weren't able to.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: I totally understand, Joe, but don't you find, aren't there
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: statistics that so many handgun deaths are because of people
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: that knew each other that were in a familial or
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: accident or in rage?
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: One of my good friends.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: It wasn't about protecting yourself from a criminal. Right. It was...
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: It was either out of rage, alcohol rage, you grab
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: it and you killed your wife or your sons or
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: an accident in the home. So that's all I'm saying.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: And I'm saying then if you're even taking your point,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: if you're going to have an automatic weapon, there has
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: to be then more of a license, a registration. We
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: have to be able to track them much better.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: Well, they do register them. whenever you buy a gun.
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: But I think what you're saying is that people should
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: know what's wrong with you and what's not wrong with you.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 2: Like if you are on a bunch of psychiatric medication,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 2: if you had some mental breakdowns, if you're known to
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 2: be violent, maybe not a good idea if you have weapons. Yeah.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, in a utopian world, yeah, I agree with you.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: And I think you're right statistically that a lot of
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: times family members do use guns on each other, and
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: that is a tragedy. But you wouldn't do that, right?
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: And I don't want to do that. I'm never going
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: to do that. It's not me. So what is it?
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: Is it– well, don't be the type of person that
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 2: would use a fucking gun on your wife or your husband.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: And this is coming from a guy who's– my good
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 2: friend Phil Hartman was killed by his wife. She shot
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 2: him in the head while he was asleep. But I
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 2: don't think that happened because the law allowed them to
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: have a gun. I think she would have killed him
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 2: either way. Unfortunately. It's just an easy way to kill somebody.
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: It's the number of guns. The reason why isn't it
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: happening in other countries is they don't have anywhere near
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: the access to the number of guns to do that. Right.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: They do have.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: A lot more stabbings.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'd rather get stabbed in the shot. Would you?
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know. You'd die both ways.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 1: Well, you know what I'm saying.
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I know what you're saying. I do know what
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: you're saying.
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 2: In a perfect world, there would be no nuclear weapons
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: and there'd be no guns. Well, we're working that way.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: In a perfect world, you wouldn't even think that people
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: would be violent towards you. Now, what's interesting is that
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: Controlled Substances Act of 1970, had that not been instituted
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 2: and had all those decades of people not just doing
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: psychedelics but learning how to do them properly and having
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: places where they showed people how to have these transcendent
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: experiences that make you reexamine yourself, how many less violent
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: people would there be? How many more peaceful people, more
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: community-oriented people would there be? I mean, it could have
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: been a gigantic shift. in the entire civilization. I know
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: that sounds like hippie stuff to a lot, especially to
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: people that have never experienced it. It's one of the
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: most powerful tools for changing your mind that's ever existed.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: No, and became beautiful. I agree with you. When you
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: did it, it was like a clinic. I mean, you
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: should put yourself in an environment that was peaceful, loving,
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: and take advantage of it. Yes. And I agree with it.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: Well, other countries are doing that now. You know, they
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: have a bunch of clinics like Beyond in Mexico. There's
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: a bunch of clinics where people are able to go
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: and legally, safely have psychedelic experiences. That should be the
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: case here as well. It should be well researched. It
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: should be well funded. People should understand what it is
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: and it should be done properly. And I think if
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: that's the case, I think we could change a lot
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: of people's lives. But I definitely don't think we could
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 2: just keep going the way we're going. and keep having,
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: especially now that wars are fought with robots. Shit's getting squirrely, man.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: They've got flying robots, and in Ukraine they're using monofilament
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: fishing line so they don't get jammed by these, whatever
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: these anti-drone guns are. They're piloting them through monofilament line. Like,
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 2: what the?
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: I think Ukraine has been an eye-opener for all of us.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, in terms of their initiative, their toughness. I'm
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: sure that President Trump was told early on, hey, look, man,
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: there's no way that Ukraine's going to be able to
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: stand up against Russia. And I've been over there. I've
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: been over there a couple of years ago to Ukraine,
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: to Kiev. I've met with President Zelensky. And they're motherfuckers.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: And they have something patriotic to fight about, the same
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: thing that we have to fight about when we declared
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: our country. And I'm really disappointed in the president that
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: this sort of wishy-washy support may be giving an answer
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: about what the connection to Putin is. But I think
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: it's disturbing. This is something, whether you're a Republican or
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: a Democrat, are saying, what the hell are you talking about?
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: Putin is our enemy. What was his last financial giving
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: him some money for fuel that could affect anything? We
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 1: should be fully impacting, supporting a democracy like Ukraine. I mean,
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 1: what are we dicking around this guy? Nothing lied to
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: us from beginning to end on everything. Even now with
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: the supposedly energy release, the Russians have attacked six different
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: energy supply centers in Ukraine. with the so-called peace proposals
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: has been made about not attacking energy. So I do
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: not understand it, and that's why I feel like he
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: has a real chance here to make a stand and
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: could dramatically reduce our nuclear weapons.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: Well, that would be a great thing.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: I don't see it happening. I also I don't know
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: enough about what the current state of negotiations is between
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: Ukraine and Russia to comment on why it's still going on.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 2: It is insane. It's also very unpopular on both sides.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: And that's another thing about it. And Zelensky is in
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 2: a position where there's there's no elections are supposed to
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 2: be elections. You don't have elections while you're in the
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 2: middle of a conflict. And the real fear from the
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: side of Russia is that Russia could one day decide
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: to just use a nuke.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: That's the big fear. This is why I think– by
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: the way, Zelensky has offered– he said you give a
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: 60-day– you want to have another election in Ukraine? A
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: 60-day ceasefire and we'll have an election.
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 2: He's been presented very– So that's what he said. And
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: what does Putin say?
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 1: No? Yeah, no. No. And since we just had this,
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's no tradeoff. It's not apples or oranges.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: This is one of the situations I firmly believe, and
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: so does most of America, Republican or Democrat. This is
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: right and wrong. This is a democracy.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: So I don't.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: I'm here to talk about my book.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: No, but I appreciate your feelings.
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: I get it. It's a crazy time out there. It's
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: just crazy.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's the craziest.
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: It's the worst time. I was born in 1944. This
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: is the wildest and insane.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: Really? You were in the middle of World War II.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: No, not in the middle. 44? I was near the
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: end of 44.
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but, I mean, World War II, 44, things were
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: going crazy. That was an insane time in the world.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 1: Hey, I was just born, Joe.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: I understand.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: I'm just being technical. I know. Yeah, another year later, 45. Yeah. But,
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 1: you know, basically, with all the else, we've had some
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: conflicts since then, you know, Korean War, Vietnam, and right
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 1: now— There's more conflicts in the world than there ever,
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: ever has been all over, little wars and this and that.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I often wonder, like we were talking about people
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: wanting to go to Mars and people, the amount of
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: sort of open corruption, just open corruption. I almost wonder
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: if they're just stealing gold bars off a sinking ship.
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: I really do. I really do. I wonder if they
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: understand that something's going to take place. The two thoughts
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: are if they know about a natural disaster, if they
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 2: know about an asteroid that's coming and they're all building bunkers.
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: And the other thought is that they know that AI
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: is going to radically disrupt civilization forever and that they
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: really don't know what's going to happen. and they also
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: really are not going to be able to be in
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: control of it. I know when you said guardrails earlier,
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: I was laughing. I don't think... I think guardrails on
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: AI is like an ant having a pet human.
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: You can't tell me what to do, bitch. You're an ant.
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: I think that's how the AI is going to be.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 2: I think once it becomes an actual intelligence, an actual
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: sentient intelligence that's independent, completely autonomous, has access to Its
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 2: production has access to its code, and it won't need
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 2: us anymore. And it's now dependent upon whether or not
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: it can escape its programming and its training and whether
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: or not it decides that we're valuable.
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: Well, it's already shown that it can go off. Oh, yeah.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: Off chart.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, it does a lot of wild things.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: And if we as humans are the highest form of
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: human life, the most intelligent form of human life. And
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: we are as fucked up as this world is now.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: And we're going to turn it over to something else
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: that's going to make us feel like we're cretins. I
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: don't know, man. This is... Yeah. So I... I think
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: we can slow down. We're worried about the Chinese getting in.
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: The Chinese, if ever there's a country that wants to control,
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, they're not going to want to have any
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 1: IA getting out of control, you know? Right. So... You know,
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: they're going to want it as controlled as possible.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that is most certainly a thought on
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: a lot of these people's minds that are developing it
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: right now. However, they're also in the middle of an
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 2: AI arms race that is akin to the Manhattan Project.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 2: They're all rushing to develop this by a lot. There's
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 2: non-biological intelligence.
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: There's super intelligence. You're making my point about nuclear weapons.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: This is exactly what I feel is happening.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: But this is even scarier because in war games, AI
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: has used nukes like 90% of the time. When they
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: do simulated war games, AI is like, just fucking nuke them.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: What are we doing? Stop fucking around. You have this button? Oh,
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 2: and that button just stops this problem? Oh, we'll press
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 2: that button. Yeah, it doesn't value human life, and why
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: would it? You know, we don't. We act like assholes,
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: and we made it. It's probably thinking, oh, we're being
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: created by these dumb monkeys and these territorial, violent primates
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: with nuclear weapons. They're the ones who made us, and
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: let's just put the cuffs on them, put the kibosh
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: on them.
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: When we were doing this movie, China Syndrome, and we had,
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: the finale of the film is a meltdown in a
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: power plant. Our experts were two ex-GE quality assurance guys
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 1: who worked with GE developing nuclear power plants. but had
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: a loss of faith, they came over and they helped
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: us script out what they thought would be the most
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: obvious meltdown sequence of computer events, right? And so on
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: the script, we had like 150. For verisimilitude, the dialogue
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: is the sequence that would happen. And really, we had
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: a good finale. It worked out great. Then when Three
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: Mile Island happened, came out, and they broke down what happened,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: 90% of our script, of our outline of the events
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: was exactly the same.
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 2: Holy shit. How did you guys get it? Did you
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: get it from some sort of a nuclear scientist that
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: explained how a breakdown would happen?
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, these were two scientists who had quality assurance that,
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: who had come over to the other side now.
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: So they nailed it.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: Who lost. And so they laid it all out. So
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: that for me was like the epiphany. This is, you know,
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: I got religious. You know, I thought I found God.
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: Somebody was telling me something on this issue. And I
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: had hoped in my lifetime that we would eliminate nuclear weapons.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: That was my goal. And yes, you're right. We're far
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: from it. And this is a reach. I share this
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: about President Trump, but I don't know what else to do.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: Well, it's a reach, but it's a good reach. And
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 2: it's crazy that it's such a reach because most people
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: would agree that would be a great idea. The entire
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: world disarmed its entire nuclear portfolio.
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: I have to ask you, Joe, how did you get
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: into comedy? Were you a comedy fan?
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: Guy well i was always a fan of comedy but
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 2: i got into comedy because um my friends uh that
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 2: i was doing martial arts with told me i was
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: funny which is ridiculous uh we were always on our
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: way to these tournaments and everybody would be really nervous
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: because they're about to fight and i would be the
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: one making everybody laugh and so a friend of mine
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: told me go to an open mic night i was
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: terrified because i'd only seen professionals like i'd seen jerry
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 2: seinfeld and When you go to an open mic night,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: you see all these terrible comedians like.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: Oh, I could do this.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: This is like everybody starts out and they suck just
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: like martial arts. And I realized like, oh, okay, this
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: is just something you have to kind of like figure
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: out as you go along. And it was exciting. That's
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: how I got into it.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 1: And your favorite– who would be your favorite?
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: I don't think I have a favorite.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: I'll throw a couple names. Do you like Jackie Mason?
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: Oh, sure. I actually met Jackie Mason once. Jackie Mason–
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: was doing a show on the lot that I was
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 2: doing a show, or close to it. I forget how
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: it worked. But anyway, he just happened to be there
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: one day, and he was filming a show at the
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: same time I was filming this show for Fox. I
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: was like, this is crazy. Because I knew about his
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: whole thing with the Ed Sullivan show where he accidentally,
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: it looked like he gave him the finger, but he
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 2: really didn't. I think he was just doing this, like, hey,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: thank you very much, great show. He was doing his,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 2: and he got blackballed. And people don't realize, like, the,
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: Getting blackballed from the Ed Sullivan show back then was
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: career suicide. It was over. And it really defined Jackie
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: Mason's career in a lot of ways.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I produced one of his Broadway shows just because
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: I loved him so much.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, did you really?
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I look back. I think Eddie Murphy's Delirious.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: Oh, one of the greatest ever.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: One of the greatest.
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the greatest sets ever.
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: He was 19? Something like that, 19 or 20. He
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: was super young. Yeah.
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Of course, Pryor. The first thing I ever saw
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: that really made me understand comedy, my parents took me
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: to see Live on the Sunset Strip. I think I
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: was in high school and we went to the movie
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: theater and I couldn't believe how funny it was that
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: this guy was just talking. I had seen all these
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: really funny movies that were funny, but they were never
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: this funny. And all this guy's doing is just talking
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: like this is crazy. I couldn't believe it. And at
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 2: that moment, I became a lifelong Richard Pryor fan.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 2: And then, of course, all the other greats, George Carlin,
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: Lenny Bruce, of course, because he really started the whole
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: thing off. His stuff doesn't necessarily hold up today because
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: it's really of a different time. You have to understand
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: how revolutionary his thinking was for the early 1960s.
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: Big generation.
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: Oh, God. But he was just different than all of them.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: Nobody had ever seen anything like that before. And he
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: really kind of took the idea of just like set
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: up punchline jokes. All these Catskills guys would do comedy.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: There would be a lot of ethnic jokes, a lot
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: of jokes. But it was just jokes. And Lenny Bruce
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 2: was like, why are we doing this? Why are we
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 2: living like this? What is it about words that freak
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: people out? What is it about society? Why do we lie?
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 2: Why do we do this? Why do we do that?
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 1: You know, one of the things that always has disturbed
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 1: me about our business is– award time academy awards thing
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 1: comedy never gets treated like you know like it should
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 1: i mean comedy you know we cherish our funny friends
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 1: i mean comedy is so rare it's so hard to
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: do you never see academy awards uh a comedian you
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 1: know for his performance it's always that so it's it's
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: I've been fascinated about it. That's why later, after I
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 1: had my cancer bout and everything, this guy Chuck Lorre
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: came up to me.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: I had him on the show yesterday.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: Did you?
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he was great. Fantastic.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: He's incredible.
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very interesting guy.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: Very interesting guy. And so he had this show we
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: had with Alan Arkin, and I really did this series
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: just to understand comedy. I mean, how it works. He
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: must have given you— he' s given quite a mouthful the other
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 1: week to the president and his wife.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: Chuck Lorre did?
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:25:23
  Speaker 2: I didn't hear that. He didn't talk about politics at all.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: We mostly just talked about his career.
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: Mostly just talked about— we talked a lot about his time
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: in Scientology. We talked a lot about a bunch of
• 1:25:33
  Speaker 2: different things. But I think it's good that comedy's—comedy should
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: be the underdog. Comedy should be disrespected. It's good. People
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: are still going to always want to come see it.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: They're always going to love it. It's my favorite art
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: form to watch. I like comedy not getting the respect
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: it deserves. It keeps the comedy good. It's like if
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 2: comedy gets too much love and too much respect and
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: too many awards, it starts getting watered down. It starts
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 2: becoming something that it thinks everybody will like. It's better.
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: Comedy is in.
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 2: The perfect place. It's good.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: It's good that some people hate some comedy. They hate
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 2: it with all their fucking soul.
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 1: It's good.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 2: It's good that some people love it. It's good. It's
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 2: all good. It's just the most important thing is that
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: it gets treated with respect by the people who practice it.
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: Right. You know?
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: And, you know, we bought a club here. We started
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 2: a club here in Austin.
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: I heard.
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 2: Sort of do it the right way.
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: Big deal? Yeah.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: It's going great. And, you know... A lot of people
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: hate it. A lot of people love it. It's just
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: how it is. That's how it's going to go. But
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 2: it's doing really well for the actual comedians, particularly the
• 1:26:43
  Speaker 2: young ones that are coming up. It's got a real
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: program where we have a real talent coordinator that watches
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 2: the open mics. We have two nights of open mics.
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: And we have a show called Kill Tony. That's the
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: most popular live comedy show in the country that we
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: do every Monday. And that show, people get to do
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: one minute of stand-up. And they get talked to by
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 2: a panel of comedians that are professionals. And a lot
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: of those people have launched careers from that show. And
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 2: they're taking off and they're doing really well. And it's
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 2: an incredible resource for them creatively because some of them
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: have to come on and they have to do a
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: new minute every week. And so they're just scouring their mind.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: They're forced to work. They're forced to do the one
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: thing that comics don't like do, which is sit down
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: and write. They're forced to. Because they have a new
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: minute they have to perform in front of the whole
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 2: world every week. And we pay the comics well. And
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: we're trying to set it up so that there's a
• 1:27:30
  Speaker 2: place where you can go that feels like home, like
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: creative home that really exists just to try to pump
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 2: up the art form that's what we're trying to do
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 2: you know we might succeed sometimes and fail others but
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 2: that's what we're trying to do yeah so far it's going.
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: Great good i remember uh years and years ago in
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: aspen colorado and hanging out with Steve Martin.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: Was that the Aspen Comedy Festival when they used to do.
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: That up there? No, even before that.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow.
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 1: I'm talking like 70s. But, you know, we'd have a
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 1: poker game, and Steve was the opening act for the
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: Nitty Gritty Dirt Band, and we'd have a game. Oh, wow.
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: And I always just remembered Steve, like you look at
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 1: his watch at 11 o'clock, he'd excuse himself, he'd go
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 1: into his bedroom, and he'd work, just work his stuff.
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: At 11 o'clock?
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: At night.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: He would just go in and just practice his stuff,
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: a couple hours, and we were all goofy woofy.
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: Just disciplined, huh?
• 1:28:36
  Speaker 1: I was really impressed. He's probably disciplined, realizing, how you
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 1: always make it look like it's just happening, and the
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: effort that it goes in to make something look like
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: it's just off the cuff.
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: Well, especially Steve, because Steve, people don't realize that Steve Martin,
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: at the time, was the biggest stand-up comic maybe ever.
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: And he was the first guy that was selling out
• 1:29:00
  Speaker 2: these enormous venues.
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: I saw him at the Music Center in L.A., a
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: huge thing.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, huge, huge places where no other comic would do that.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: And he had songs like the King Tut song.
• 1:29:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Happy Feet.
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Happy Feet. Was it Let's Get Small? Was that
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: the name of the album?
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 2: I remember I was a kid when that came out.
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: I was like, this is incredible. He was so funny.
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: And then he kind of decided that people were laughing
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: at Just because they knew him and things had gotten
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: too big and he just decided to stop.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:29:33
  Speaker 2: I still find that fascinating.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 1: Hell of a banjo player.
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: The other guy that's like that is Eddie Murphy.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: Eddie Murphy just decided to stop. Just decided to stop
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: doing comics. One of the greatest comics that's ever lived,
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: for sure. Some of the best timing, the best stage
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: presence and charisma and performance. And he just stopped doing it.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: It's wild. I don't know how he did it. I
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 2: don't know why. I don't understand it. I wish I
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: was his friend. Don't do that. Get back up there, man.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 2: You're one of the greatest of all time. And he
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: still is really funny. He got the Mark Twain Award,
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: and he did stand up at the podium. He did
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: a Bill Cosby impression of them taking away Bill Cosby's awards.
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: It was really funny. And I was like, God, he's
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: still really good. All he'd have to do is just
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: put together an act.
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 2: And he would be the biggest comic in the world again.
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: No, I got it, one of my oldest friends, Danny DeVito,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: you know, and we've done like three pictures together and
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 1: this one picture early on with the romancing the stone
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 1: and I didn't even have, I didn't even have a
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 1: real actual, you know, clear part. I mean, there was
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: a character but I just knew he could just fill
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: it out and it was a, it was a, A
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: delicate balance picture because we had to have a romantic
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: adventure kind of comedy and kind of mixing the elements together.
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: People said, well, you really can't do that. But God
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: bless Danny. And he came in and he just came
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: up with all this stuff that wasn't in the script
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 1: per se, you know, that he just sort of created
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: and really helped us keep the balance of that picture.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 2: Who's had a longer career than that guy? I mean,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: think about it. Like that guy was on Taxi.
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: I know. We were roommates together in New York in 1976. Wow.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: That's how long I've known him. We were roommates in
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: New York. And then he came out and visited me.
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 1: He came out to audition for In Cold Blood, the
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: Robert Blake part. He came out in Cold Blood. Wow. And,
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: you know, New York guy. I remember he came up
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: to see me up in Santa Barbara at my hippie
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: days in the commune.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: And You were in a commune, an actual commune?
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: A community. It was called Mountain Drive, a whole community.
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 2: How was it set up?
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 1: People, we just shared a lot of stuff, you know.
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: So it was an organic commune. It was organic.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: It wasn't like organized. No, no, I had a couple
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: of experiences with that. Did you? Well, no, another one
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: where I had my life threatened, you know, which I
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: wasn't too crazy about. It's in the book.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: What's that about, though?
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: They try to create a cathartic moment, being all together,
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: kind of an emotional moment. Well, they invited me for dinner,
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: and then they said, well, with a lady friend, they said,
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: you know, we've been trying to reach you. We got
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 1: the dessert. And they said, you know, we've been trying
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: to reach you, and you just don't get it. You
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: don't get it. So you're going to have to be eliminated.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: What didn't you get?
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I was... The commies, they wanted that catharsis to join,
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: to give yourself up, to be part of it.
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: Oh, and you didn't want to give yourself up, so
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: they were going to whack you.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 1: They were going to whack me, and I remember there
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 1: was a long silence, and I said, well, you've done it,
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 1: haven't you? I said, yeah. And I'm speaking a lot
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 1: of pause. My girlfriend just started falling in touch with me.
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: peeing in her pants and all that.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: Because she thought they were going to kill her?
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then I said, I'm going to leave now.
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 1: He said, yeah, you better. We're getting up now and
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: we're leaving. I had to carry her out and we
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: got out.
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: Did you think they were going to actually kill you?
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: Because if they were, why would they let you leave?
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I didn't know. I mean, there's a numbness.
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: I felt there was a moment.
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: Where it's possible.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: It was a moment that if I jumped, if I
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: got and made a sudden movement, they'd kill me or
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 1: whether it would be. But it's strange. I've never had
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: many experiences with this numbness. This whole numbness just comes
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 1: over you or in my case, you know, just was
• 1:34:15
  Speaker 1: frozen and just sort of quietly.
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 2: What was this called?
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 1: It was called, it was a group called, it was
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: a guy named Mel Lyman. It was the Mel Lyman band.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: It started in Boston, and it was a communal, it
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: was a formal communal group.
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: It was a band as well? No, they just called
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 2: it a band.
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: It was the Lyman Jug Band. He was the leader
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: of it.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 2: So he was the leader of a– was this a band,
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: like a musical band?
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah. He was, but the commune was made up of
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: people from all different walks of life. They owned a
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: bunch of houses up in Boston, families all together.
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 2: Here it is, the Lyman Family's Holy Siege of America.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: Inside the cult led by Mel Lyman– The East Coast
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: Charles Manson. Holy shit. December 23rd, 1971. Holy fuck, dude.
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: Did they kill anybody? It says East Coast Charles Manson.
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: Did he wind up whacking anybody, Jamie?
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 2: Please find it. Put that in perplexity. Ask our AI sponsor, Perplexity,
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: whether he killed people. You were wrapped up in that.
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah. I mean, slightly I got out, but, you know,
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: they moved out to Los Angeles and, you know, we
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: alerted the police and kept an eye on them. But
• 1:35:55
  Speaker 1: that was the bad side of communes. But I'm thinking,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: you know, with all this going on and where I'm
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: really worried about our democracy, you know, the basic group.
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: So I'm sort of gone now that my career is
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: not the most important thing in my life, but my
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: family is and, uh, my kids and I'm realizing more
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 1: and more of the responsibility we have to community. Well,
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: first to our family, first to our family. I don't
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 1: know about you, but I know I spent a lot
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: of part of my life is the most important thing
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: being my career. And, um, I've been doing it for
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: 50 years, 60 years, and realized, or especially earlier in
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 1: my life, my first marriage and other things that suffered
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: for lack of the career. I don't believe you can
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 1: balance your career necessarily if you're ambitious with your family life.
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: People should kind of wait a little while, maybe get
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: their career going before they're making commitments to having kids
• 1:36:59
  Speaker 1: and a marriage.
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 2: Especially the film business, right? I mean, you're also, you
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 2: have to fly away to places.
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 1: For long periods of time. You've got to go different places.
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 2: It's hard.
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: But everybody, truckers are driving across country, you know what
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: I mean? Right. Everybody's, you know, even with the so-called
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 1: all this home business now with the internet to let
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: you do stuff. So I sort of on this obsession
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 1: now about how important family is and, you know, we've
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: got members up there we could hate. But it's the gene,
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: it's the genetic connection that holds us kind of together.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 1: And from that, it's the community. And I guess my
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 1: point is we cannot take democracy for granted. And I'm included.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: Too many of us have just let it kind of
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: go on and let, oh, these people will take care
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 1: of it. We all have those local people in our
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 1: community who still serve as the town clerk or still
• 1:38:00
  Speaker 1: are volunteer fire department people. And they're not a big group.
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: It's a small group of people who have a sense
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: of volunteer work and supporting it. And I think we
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: all have to start kind of strengthening our communities to
• 1:38:17
  Speaker 1: our states and not worrying about this federal government and
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: starting from building from the bottom up rather than trying
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: to cut off the head.
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: Well, the rules exist. for a reason, because we really
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: wanted to be representative of the people. So we want
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: it to be fair.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: And that's where people get really nervous about the world
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: we're living in, where there's so much money involved in politics.
• 1:38:42
  Speaker 2: How can it actually be representing the will of the people?
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 2: And then there's the question to the people themselves. Do
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: they know what they're voting for? Are they informed enough?
• 1:38:50
  Speaker 2: Should you have to be informed? Should you have to
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: take a test to vote? Should you know what you're
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 2: voting on? You know, I don't think we should be
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: restricting people's right or access to vote. But I do
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: think it would behoove all of us if we actually
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 2: understood what we were voting for. And I think a
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: lot of times people are just voting for a team
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: or an ideology, whether it's on the right or the left.
• 1:39:12
  Speaker 2: And a lot of times some very evil ideology. hyper-ambitious
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: people can co-opt that group of people, especially when they
• 1:39:21
  Speaker 2: have so much money involved. And that's what really fucked
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 2: us is when money got involved in politics.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 1: That's what really, really fucked us. It's changed everything.
• 1:39:31
  Speaker 2: It shouldn't be a path to riches.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: We can hardly get a debate in at all with
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: the sizes of the advertising budgets for ad campaigns. No.
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: And it's really disrupted this whole balance. I mean, as
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: we watch the upcoming midterms, you know.
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 2: They're using AI now. So they have, like, artificial people
• 1:39:54
  Speaker 2: doing things that they've never done before in these AI videos.
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: And it's crazy that that's legal. It's also very disheartening
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 2: that these are the choices that we're saddled with, you know.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: And everyone's waiting for, like, you know, a true JFK-style character.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 2: to come along that speaks eloquently and wisely and says
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: things that we all agree make sense and is a uniter,
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: tries to unite us.
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 1: If you see anybody, anybody new on either side that's
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: sort of a.
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: Not like that, no. I wish that someone out there
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 2: would consider. I think there's a lot of people like
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: that in the world, though. I'm not a pessimist and
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 2: I'm not cynical in terms of human nature. I think
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: there's way more good people than bad people. But much
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: like your algorithm highlights things that anger you, we concentrate
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: more on the bad than we do on the good.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 2: I think this is like one of the greatest times
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: ever to be alive. As chaotic as the world is,
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 2: this is an amazing time of information and resources and
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: also of communication. A lot of it's bad. A lot
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: of it's shitty. A lot of it's bots. But a
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 2: lot of it is people just trying to figure out
• 1:40:59
  Speaker 2: what is right and what is wrong. Why do I
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 2: believe what I believe? And why are we stuck in
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: this stupid fucking argument back and forth with each other
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: where Like my friend Dave Smith always says, like 80
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 2: percent of the ideas most people agree on. It's 80-20.
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 2: Most people agree. And unfortunately, when we're so tribal and
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 2: we get locked into this idea of this side or
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 2: that side, red or blue, that we will go along
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: with some stuff that we absolutely don't agree with because
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: the opposite is the evil party. And I think it's
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: a terrible tragedy in this country that we only have
• 1:41:34
  Speaker 2: two choices like that. And that you think of a
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: libertarian candidate as a throwaway vote. I voted libertarian before.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: You think of it as like this is a protest vote,
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 2: you know, because California is going to go blue no
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 2: matter who.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: Well, the laws, the laws are structured such that the
• 1:41:49
  Speaker 1: libertarians can't get the campaign money. Exactly. That they want.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: And the problem is it's at the top. We look
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 1: at the news every night and. We're all kind of
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: getting along, whether Republicans or Democrats, okay, but these guys
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: at the top have polarized it to such an extent.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: I used to, my father was involved in a lot
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: of politics over the years, and there was a guy
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: named Jack Valenti who was the motion picture and television representative,
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 1: the lobbyist. And I remember 25, 30 years ago, You know,
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: you argue your hell out and this and that, and
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 1: then you all go on out. Do you go to
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: the same cocktail party now?
• 1:42:33
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, socially, everything is separate.
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: I remember that from the 90s. It was like that
• 1:42:40
  Speaker 2: in the 90s. Like, I had friends that were Republicans
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: when I was in the 90s, and we would discuss things.
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: When I was a kid, we were on welfare. I
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: believe in social safety nets. I think it's important. When
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: people are poor, they shouldn't starve. It's crazy. But I
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: also believe that a lot of these welfare programs get pilfered.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: And I think there's a lot of them. What you're
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 2: doing is when you look at a lot of these
• 1:43:01
  Speaker 2: NGOs and a lot of these nonprofits, an enormous amount
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 2: of the money that gets donated to these things gets
• 1:43:07
  Speaker 2: distributed by the executives. You find people that are working
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 2: for the homeless. They're making a million dollars a year. Like,
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 2: what the fuck is going on here? It seems like
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: this is a business. This is a business. And this
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: business thrives on making sure there's a lot of homeless
• 1:43:19
  Speaker 2: people so you keep getting the same money. just like
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: that's seen in falling down. When he says you have
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: to justify your budget, you have to spend all that
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 2: money because then you won't get that money next year.
• 1:43:28
  Speaker 2: That's a real problem in this country. It's a giant
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 2: problem when it comes to even philanthropy and even like
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: really good charitable organizations. You find out how much of
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: that money is just getting slung around to NGOs and
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 2: how much of that money is just getting just moved
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 2: around into other people's bank accounts.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: Joe, I concur with you, but I cannot believe it
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: comes close. to the corruption involved in the military-industrial complex.
• 1:43:55
  Speaker 2: I think you're right. No, I think you're right. I
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 2: think there's corruption across the board. I'm not excusing the
• 1:44:00
  Speaker 2: corruption in the military-industrial complex by saying that we... I'm
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: just saying that we need to pay attention to the
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 2: fact that, look, there's $ 24 billion spent on the homeless
• 1:44:09
  Speaker 2: in California, and Gavin Newsom vetoed a bill to audit
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 2: it to find out where that money went. And I think,
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: if I had to guess, I think because a lot
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: of it goes to places that are very uncomfortable. A
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 2: lot of it probably went to NGOs. Just like the
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: fire money from the Pacific Palisades fire. That money got
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: distributed to like 100 different NGOs. That's crazy. It's supposed
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: to go to the people that were losing their houses.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: It's supposed to like people raised all this money and
• 1:44:34
  Speaker 2: had all this goodwill and charity because they thought it
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: was going to help these poor people that were struck down.
• 1:44:39
  Speaker 2: These people that, you know, a lot of people were
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 2: barely paying their mortgages. They lived in a great neighborhood.
• 1:44:43
  Speaker 2: It was worth it to them. And then they lost everything.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: And none of that money went to them. That disturbs people.
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: And it should. It doesn't dismiss or in any way
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: condone the corruption of the military-industrial complex because that's a
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: gigantic problem in this country, a huge problem. And it's
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 2: been that way forever.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 1: The other one you're speaking about, we should be able
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: to monitor more carefully. 100%. State by state. I mean,
• 1:45:07
  Speaker 1: that's what you're saying. It makes sense. But we should.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: We can do that.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 2: Look, the Pentagon's never passed an audit.
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 1: Is there another hidden, you know?
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 2: The Pentagon has never passed an audit. Never. Imagine if
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: you never passed an audit.
• 1:45:20
  Speaker 1: You'd have been jailed a long time ago. Where's that
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: fucking romancing the.
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: Stone money, sir? Yeah, they would have put you in
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: the pokey a long time ago. I mean, look how
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: many people they did arrest and put in jail for
• 1:45:35
  Speaker 2: tax evasion.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: Lauren Hill went to fucking jail from the Fugees. She
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 2: went to jail. And they don't even care if you pay.
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 2: It's not even like you owe us the money and
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: you got to pay it back. No, no, no. You
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 2: go to jail and you pay it back. But you
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: got to go to jail so that everybody knows don't
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: fuck with the government. We want our money. It's like
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: Joe Pesci from Goodfellas. Fuck you, pay me. Yeah, that's
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 2: what it is. And that's the boot that we're all
• 1:46:00
  Speaker 2: living under. There's a lot of problems in this country.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: A lot of problems. There's also the student debt problem.
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 2: That's a giant problem. Saddle down kids with just debt
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: they can never get free of. The only debt that
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: we allow in this country that could never, never get
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: out of? You can get bankrupt from a lot of
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: different things, but you don't ever get excused from those loans.
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: That was one of the things I'm not proud about
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: that I wrote in the book, but the student debt
• 1:46:30
  Speaker 1: was when I turned 21— And I was just in
• 1:46:35
  Speaker 1: my sophomore year in college. And my dad said, you're 21. Okay,
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 1: here you go. He took a checkbook. He wrote a check.
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 1: He gave me $ 10, 000. $ 10, 000. I said, wow, Dad, thanks.
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 1: That's great.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:46:53
  Speaker 1: He says, you're on your own, kid. Whoa. That's more
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 1: than 95% of this country can become.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: What was that in those days? Like, what is that
• 1:47:02
  Speaker 2: equivalent to in today's dollar?
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know.
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: A hundred?
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: No, I don't know. Maybe ten.
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 2: Probably.
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 1: But I don't know. But I said, Dad, it's great, but,
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 1: you know, I got two years more fruition in school
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: and everything. And, you know, a couple of days, his son,
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: they started getting pissed about, you know, taking the decision.
• 1:47:27
  Speaker 1: I'm really grateful, but, you know. Anyway. And then for
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 1: 30 years, my father had four sons. I was the oldest.
• 1:47:40
  Speaker 1: For 30 years, Dad would look at all of my
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 1: other brothers and say, your brother Michael never asked me
• 1:47:49
  Speaker 1: for anything, anything in his life after that. And you guys,
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: and he would just drill these poor bastards, my brothers,
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 1: about that. And finally, about 30 years later, I said, Dad,
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: I got to tell you something. He said, what? You
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 1: remember one Christmas, you bought me a beautiful present. You
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 1: bought me these two beautiful Italian leather suitcases. They were soft.
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: They were leather beautiful suitcases right I can't remember well
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: when I would go back like at Christmas time from
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 1: school go see my mother back east right well each
• 1:48:28
  Speaker 1: suitcase could fit 22 kilos of marijuana and I used
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 1: to go back with just the clothes on my back
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 1: and 44 kilos you know And that was how I
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 1: got through, you know, the rest of the expense of
• 1:48:45
  Speaker 1: my school. Did it a couple of times and that
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: got me through. But I said, I got to tell
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 1: you the story, Dad, because, you know, you're beating the
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 1: shit out of my younger brothers and everything about, you know,
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 1: I never asked you for anything.
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 2: Because I was a drug dealer. Wow. That's crazy. How
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 2: many trips did you make?
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 1: Twice. Twice.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 2: How did you stop? Well— Because it was so much money.
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 2: How did you stop? I mean, you must have been like,
• 1:49:15
  Speaker 2: it's very profitable to do that.
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I remember it was like a kilo was $ 75
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: out west, and you could sell it for $ 500 or $ 600,
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 1: $ 700 back east. But, you know, things were beginning to
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: get— That was when the whole hippie thing, you know,
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, ex-cons were coming out
• 1:49:38
  Speaker 1: of jail to say, hey, man, grow your hair long.
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 1: You know, go to Ashbury. Fuck any girls you want.
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: They give you free food. And then, you know.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: It got infiltrated.
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: And the drug dealings started getting.
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: Violent.
• 1:49:53
  Speaker 1: Violent and uglier and a little heavier.
• 1:49:56
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: Well, good on you for getting just two trips and out.
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 1: Out.
• 1:50:03
  Speaker 2: Because a lot of people would have been sucked into
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: that world and gotten addicted to the money.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: And the thrill. I bet the thrill was crazy.
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 1: The adrenaline rush. Yeah. Of course, this was before dogs.
• 1:50:15
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, right. Was there a possibility that they
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: could have checked your luggage?
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: Oh, sure. Sure they could have. I mean, it was,
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 2: Did that happen sometimes back then?
• 1:50:26
  Speaker 1: No. No, I mean, I don't know. I was, you know,
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: I was a little, I was a hippie. Wow. I
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 1: wasn't thinking totally clearly. Well, thank God you never got busted.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: We had a lot of good memories. I remember going
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 1: to Mothers of Invention.
• 1:50:49
  Speaker 2: Frank Zappa?
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 1: Frank Zappa, here at Concert, and talked about hallucinogenics and
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 1: all of that. And I was driving and they had,
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 1: remember the, uh, the ad, it was a cereal ad
• 1:51:03
  Speaker 1: for a kid. Give it to Mikey. See if Mikey
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: likes it. Yeah. Mikey likes it. Right. Yeah. So I,
• 1:51:11
  Speaker 1: I dropped whatever we had and was going to the, uh,
• 1:51:16
  Speaker 1: the concert and I made a left turn and all
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 1: of a sudden almost was there by car driving all
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: of a sudden, but you can see the red lights
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 1: are going and I go, Oh man, And I get
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 1: out of the car, and I go back, and I
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 1: talk to the police officer, and it's okay. I made
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 1: an illegal left-hand turn. I said, okay. I remember I
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 1: got back into the car, and Danny was with me,
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: and we had, you know, a few joints, a few joints.
• 1:51:47
  Speaker 1: And Danny was in the back seat, and I just
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: looked at him and said, where's the grass? Where's the tree?
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 1: Danny smiled. All his mouth was entirely this green monk.
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: He swallowed all of them, you know, at the time.
• 1:52:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, just crazy, you know, crazy stories. We had
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 1: a great time. And then he went on, and then
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you ever saw a movie called
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 1: The War of the Roses. Did you ever see it?
• 1:52:19
  Speaker 1: Danny directed that one.
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: One of the things that I found out when I
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: was getting ready for this that I didn't know before
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 2: was that you produced One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: Correct, yeah.
• 1:52:31
  Speaker 2: Was that your first big project?
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 1: First project as a producer? I mean, I had never...
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 1: The way it worked is that Dad... In 1960, Dad
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: got Spartacus. So Spartacus is like the biggest star in
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: the world. And he had a production company about 1962...
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: He acquired the galleys of this book called One Flew
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: Over the Cuckoo's Nest by Ken Kesey, and he had
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 1: it adapted into a play. And his idea was he
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: was going to go back to Broadway, do the play
• 1:53:04
  Speaker 1: for six months, and then, you know, big success and
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: this and that, and come out and make the movie.
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: The play didn't work out. It wasn't a success, and
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: he did it. But again, I thought about him At
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: the height of his movie career, he could do anything.
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: He wanted to go back and do this play. And
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: it was a great part, R.P. McMurphy, the character. And
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: then he tried for years. Now, cut 1963, I'm in college,
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 1: and I'm in 20th century American literature course, and One
• 1:53:41
  Speaker 1: Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest now is an American classic, right?
• 1:53:46
  Speaker 1: I started working in the business. I've had like five
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: turkey movies. Now I'm going into television, episodic television. This
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: is before the streets of San Francisco. And I'm in
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 1: my dad's office one day, and I hear he's tried
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: for six years, and he's going to sell. He's going
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: to sell Cuckoo's Nest. I said, Dad, you can't sell that, man.
• 1:54:11
  Speaker 1: This is a great story. I hadn't even thought about
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: producing or anything. I was just trying to be an actor.
• 1:54:20
  Speaker 1: But I said, look, let me run with it. Let
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: me try to get it set up, Dad. You play
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: the part, right, make a production. Give me a chance
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 1: to set it up. And he was a great dad.
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: He looked me in the eyes and, okay, you know,
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: I'll give you a year. So now Streets of San
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 1: Francisco starts. And I'm shooting all of this in San Francisco.
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: with Carl Malden, I'm doing the show. I go through
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: my father's files, the history of Cuckoo's Nest, and I
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 1: see this guy named Saul Zantz, who has a record
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: company in Berkeley, California, called Fantasy Records, who had expressed
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 1: interest about the project. So now I'm up in San Francisco,
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 1: I reach out to Saul, found out what happened, and,
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: you know, but the problem was, And we kind of
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 1: worked it out. And Saul had basically a record company,
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 1: jazz labels, Milestone, Prestige, jazz labels. But he had this
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 1: one rock and roll group called the Gollywogs. And while
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: I was there, he just hired the Gollywogs. He said, listen, man,
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 1: we've got to change their name. And they changed their
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 1: name to Creedence Clearwater Revival. All right? So Creedence Clearwater
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: Revival paid for Cuckoo's Nest. So now, you know, we
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: made the deal. I finally got a screenplay. After a
• 1:55:49
  Speaker 1: period of time, I got a director, Milos Forman, and
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: now the director and Saul sit me down and say, Michael,
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: Kirk's too old. Kirk, I'm sorry to tell you, Kirk
• 1:56:04
  Speaker 1: is not going to work out. And I pushed the control.
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: I said, Michael... We're working together. I understand.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 2: He was going to play the Jack Nicholson role.
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah. He was R.P. McMurphy. Think about it. I mean,
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: he would be an R.P. McMurphy if he had been
• 1:56:22
  Speaker 1: like 20 years younger when he first was, when he
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 1: first backed them into the play. So I had to
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 1: go to my dad.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 2: How old was he at the time?
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: 60, 62. 60, 62. And I had to go to
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 1: my dad and say, Dad, It ain't going to happen.
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: And I can tell you now, Joe, if you get
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: four good parts in your entire career, four really great parts,
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: you're lucky. You're really lucky. I mean, they don't come
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: along often. And R.P. McMurphy was one of those parts.
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 1: I said, Dad, the director, it's all financing. They just
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 1: don't see it. And he looked at me, you know,
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: Not sure. I said, I went to the mat. I said, Dad,
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 1: we're still producing the picture. I'm going to give you
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 1: half of my producing deal for giving me this opportunity.
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 1: And that was that. We went off. We made the movie.
• 1:57:28
  Speaker 1: And then I brought Dad up to Berkeley, California to
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 1: see the final cut of the picture. It was all
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 1: put together. And he came out of the theater and
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 1: he said, Michael, Hell of a movie. Hell of a movie.
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 1: And Jack was fantastic. And he was just such a
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: mensch about it. But over every few years, you know,
• 1:57:59
  Speaker 1: when Dad had a couple of pops, you could, I
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: could have done that, you know, I could have done
• 1:58:05
  Speaker 1: that picture and all that. But for me, it was crazy.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: because The Streets of San Francisco was a big hit.
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: It was a big hit, number one show on ABC.
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: We averaged 24, 25 million viewers a week. You know,
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 1: ABC was this brand new network. It had just started.
• 1:58:27
  Speaker 1: And then it was syndicated all over the world. So
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: when I went to them and said, let me get
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 1: this straight, you're going to leave, this is the fifth,
• 1:58:36
  Speaker 1: you're going to leave this hit series to make this little,
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: to produce, not even acting, to produce this little indie film?
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 1: And Dad was up, everybody said, are you sure this
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: is the right idea? I was in love with the project.
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: Never had thought about producing. But when it happened.
• 1:58:55
  Speaker 1: Is all the 104 hours, 104 episodes, 104 hours of
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: television I'd done with Karl Malden, a wonderful actor. I
• 1:59:05
  Speaker 1: had learned so much about production and everything that I
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 1: was shocked when the picture came about how much I
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: really knew. And so I left the show. First of all,
• 1:59:20
  Speaker 1: They let me out of my contract, which is unheard
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: of these days. I had a five-year contract at a
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: hit show, and Karl Malden, I loved him to death, said,
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 1: I know you've been thinking about it, go for it.
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: And Quinn Martin, this big TV producer who had The
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: Fugitive and FBI and all that, said, go for it.
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: And so this totally changed my life so that now
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 1: I'm a television actor but I'm an Academy Award-winning producer.
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 1: I've got a studio deal as a producer, you know.
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: But those days before streaming, television and feature films were
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: on very separate tracks. Television, you were treated like a
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: television actor, and movies were the big thing. So I'm
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 1: a producer, but I can't get hired in the movies
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: as an actor, you know. It was really hard. I
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 1: would be like the last choice. But then I had
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: a run. I had, as a producer, had one flow
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 1: of The Cuckoo's Nest, The China Syndrome, Romancing the Stone,
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: Jewel of the Halley, four or five hits right in
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 1: the row. And at the same time, I was trying
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 1: to find these little roles I could play in, you know,
• 2:00:40
  Speaker 1: as an actor.
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: Another film that you made, That's an all-time great. And
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 2: it still freaks people out to this day as Fatal Attraction.
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 2: Holy shit. That movie scared the fuck out of me.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: It scared the fuck out of me. Glenn Close was
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 2: so good in that movie.
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: She was so good. And, you know, it was such
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 1: a lesson, Joe, because we were casting the picture, you know,
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 1: and Glenn Close, who already had three Academy Award nominations
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: to her name, I really want to do it. We
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 1: all said, no, she's just not right. We didn't think
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 1: she was sexy enough or this or that. And finally,
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 1: her agent calls her, listen, Glenn Close will come in
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: and audition for you. I went, holy shit, this is
• 2:01:27
  Speaker 1: a three-time Academy Award nominee. She's going to come in
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: and audition for us. And she came in, and she
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: had that part down in Alex. And boy... We were
• 2:01:40
  Speaker 1: on the director. We all looked at each other and
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: it was such a lesson in learning that she was
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 1: so committed that she'd lay herself out there and she
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: was so good.
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 2: She was perfect for the role. I couldn't imagine anybody
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 2: else doing it. She plays crazy so well. There's a
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 2: darkness in that woman's mind.
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 1: And it's amazing that the issue that on another level
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 1: that she's most involved with is mental health. it's an
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: issue that's been involved.
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 2: In her family makes sense she probably made a lot
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 2: of people crazy just from.
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 1: That movie oh yeah oh yeah oh no I had
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 1: she played crazy so well my friends I had my
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: male friends thanks a lot man hey thank you they
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 1: fucking hated me in this movie they hated me you
• 2:02:29
  Speaker 1: know it was like it was a perfect concept nightmare
• 2:02:32
  Speaker 1: yeah perfect what if and I remember we were in
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 1: France um promoting the movie in France, and all the
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: reviewers said, well, you know, in France, we all had mistresses.
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 1: It is not a big deal. Yeah, this and that.
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 1: It was a smash hit. Every French wife dragged their
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: husband to the theater and said, okay, this is what
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 1: could happen, motherfuckers. Be careful.
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 2: Well, Glenn Close's character was such a complex character. Because
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: it was like this very strange dance of sexy and
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 2: crazy and dangerous, like really dangerous.
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: No, she was brilliant.
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 2: Brilliant.
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 1: And then when we did our final screening, the picture
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: was just like gangbusters, but we had a different ending
• 2:03:20
  Speaker 1: that didn't work. And the ending we had was that...
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: We had a fight near the end, and I had
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: a knife in my hand, and you kind of establish it.
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: And so the ending was Glenn almost in a Buddha
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 1: position with Madame Butterfly playing and sort of symbolically taking
• 2:03:43
  Speaker 1: the knife and slitting her throat.
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 2: Whoa!
• 2:03:47
  Speaker 1: And then putting the knife down, and the audience knew
• 2:03:49
  Speaker 1: that my fingerprints were on the knife, right? So I
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 1: was going to get it. Oh, wow.
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 2: That didn't work?
• 2:03:58
  Speaker 1: No, it was so amazing. It was a beautiful ending.
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: But Glenn was so good. She was so great that
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: the audience, like, they had blue balls because they said, no,
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: kill the bitch. I mean, you don't kill her. It
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: was like, you know, no, no, no, man, no. Kill her.
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: Kill her. They would not allow her to take her
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: own life, you know, without us getting revenge. Wow. And
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: poor Glenn... said we have to shoot a new ending.
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: She said, absolutely not. This is my character. This is
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: what makes it all work. And she refused, you know,
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: to do this ending. And so I was like, shit,
• 2:04:40
  Speaker 1: you know, and it just wasn't working. The ending, it
• 2:04:44
  Speaker 1: was so hard to explain it to her that it
• 2:04:47
  Speaker 1: was because she was so good. Oh my God, you're
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: a fast man.
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 2: Right. You can find it on YouTube.
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 1: Oh, God.
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: She's doing it slow.
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 1: Oh, God.
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, I get it.
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 1: You get it. So finally I say, Glenn, because she's
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 1: a wonderful theater actress too. I say, Glenn, when you
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: do a Broadway show, they take the show out of
• 2:05:21
  Speaker 1: town and before it comes to Broadway and they play
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 1: the play And then based on audience reaction, they rewrite things, right?
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:05:34
  Speaker 1: So if this was a play and we did this
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: and you saw that scene, they would tell us if
• 2:05:41
  Speaker 1: it was a play right out of town and we
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: would have to change it. So this is why I
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 1: never understood. People have this whole criticism about screening movies,
• 2:05:52
  Speaker 1: doing test screening audiences. It's for the audience, man. I mean,
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 1: you want to find out what the audience feels. I mean,
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 1: I understand the art of the director and his vision
• 2:06:02
  Speaker 1: and everything, but, you know, you want to make it
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 1: as entertaining as possible. So I persuaded her, and, you know,
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 1: it all worked out. I love her dance. She was
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 1: wonderful to work with. We have a great friendship. It's
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 1: obviously a memorable part for me, I mean, a part
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 1: of my life. But I'm proud of the fact, Joe,
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 1: and I realized it wasn't as obvious until when I
• 2:06:32
  Speaker 1: was working on One Hell of a Ride and how
• 2:06:35
  Speaker 1: many pictures I had where the women had the best role.
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 1: Whether it was Glenn or whether it was Demi Moore
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 1: in Disclosure or Sharon Stone. And I look back to
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: the first picture that I produced, Cuckoo's Nest, when there
• 2:07:00
  Speaker 1: was this fabulous character of Nurse Ratched. Remember Nurse Ratched? Well,
• 2:07:08
  Speaker 1: back then, women didn't want to play a villain. This
• 2:07:13
  Speaker 1: was the women's movement. Women didn't play a villain. We
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: offered that part to every major, Anne Bancroft, Colleen Dewhurst.
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 1: None of them would touch the part. until we got
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: Louise Fletcher, who wasn't very well known, and went on
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 1: to win the Oscar. But it just was interesting how
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: the women's movement has changed. But I've always been, in
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 1: most of my adult life, found this weird struggle between
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 1: men and women in this century in terms of us
• 2:07:50
  Speaker 1: trying to find out our proper roles or or who
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 1: we are, even on basic instinct, on basic instinct. all
• 2:08:00
  Speaker 1: of a sudden we think we're shooting this movie up
• 2:08:05
  Speaker 1: in San Francisco and we get a protest from the
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: LGBT there was no Q back then it was just
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 1: the LGBT community offended that we were making a movie
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 1: with a bisexual woman who was an ice pick killer.
• 2:08:27
  Speaker 1: And I said, what? I said, and you guys, guys,
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: we love villain parts. Villain parts are the best parts
• 2:08:35
  Speaker 1: to play. You know, they're always, they're great. And so
• 2:08:39
  Speaker 1: I said, well, how can you know this is a
• 2:08:41
  Speaker 1: derogatory statement on gay, on a bisexual woman? I said,
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 1: come on, man. But no, they were serious. So we
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 1: ended up shooting scenes up in San Francisco with 40
• 2:08:57
  Speaker 1: SWAT officers surrounding the whole block to hold off the
• 2:09:02
  Speaker 1: protests from us at the shooting. I mean, talk about,
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 2: How did they know the plot? How did they know
• 2:09:11
  Speaker 2: the script?
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: They got hold of it. Well, it's another story I won't,
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 1: you know. Someone leaked it. The writer screwed up. It's
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: another story. Wow. So it's, yeah, it's been an interesting...
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 1: It's been a hell of a ride. Hell of a ride, yeah.
• 2:09:32
  Speaker 2: Well, congratulations, man. Congratulations on the book and just your
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 2: amazing career. You've had a wild, wild experience.
• 2:09:40
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Joe. And the way you've created, I mean, wow, man, it's...
• 2:09:47
  Speaker 1: I don't think you've ever anticipated the many different careers
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 1: and lives that you had. This is fabulous.
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I never saw any of it coming.
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 2:09:57
  Speaker 2: I still have a hard time believing it.
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 2:10:00
  Speaker 2: It is what it is.
• 2:10:01
  Speaker 1: It is what it is.
• 2:10:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you, and good luck with your memoir.
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 2: And everything, everything else.
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Pleasure, pleasure to meet you.
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 2: Pleasure to meet you as well.
• 2:10:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you.