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10: Rae DeVita's Surrogacy Journey · The Infertile Diaries

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: When you hear the word surrogacy, what immediately comes to mind for you?
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_04: Is it celebrity stories?
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_04: Is it controversial headlines?
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_04: Is it a political debate?
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_04: So often these are the stories that are subconsciously shaping our understanding of this topic.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_04: But how often do we actually get to hear from the woman who carries the baby?
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_04: Sometimes the scariest things are just the unknown.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_04: Today we're quieting the cultural noise and sitting down with Rey, my co-host Lindsay Surrogate, and the woman who carried her son Beckham.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_04: As Lindsay so poignantly shares in this conversation, at the heart of their journey was two families intertwining as one and coming together as a village for one precious life.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_04: For Ray, the desire to help women facing struggles with pregnancy and childbirth began long before this journey.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: And today she shares where that calling came from, what led her to surrogacy, and what it means to carry a child for another family.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_04: But this story isn't without its challenges.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: Ray's decision meant giving of herself mentally, physically, and emotionally.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_04: A gift that deserves to be heard and understood.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_04: What moved someone to sacrificially say, I want to help you become a mother?
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_04: This is Ray's story and the journey that finally brought Beckham into Lindsay's arms.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_04: We discussed all this and more.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: Welcome to the Infertile Diaries.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: This isn't just a podcast.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: This is your place, and these are your stories.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: A place of heartbreak to hope.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_04: This is the Infertile Diaries Podcast.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_04: I know that Ray was so kind to drive over an hour away, right?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_04: How far was the drive?
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's about an hour and 20 minutes.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_04: And you came all the way here to have a conversation in person with us and get off work early using our PTO.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_04: Just servant-hearted.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_04: I think that is probably what describes you.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_03: Let me introduce you to my baby tummy mommy.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Ray.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yay, baby tummy mommy.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_03: Who is such a special person to me and to our family.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, thank you.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: But honestly, to this world, because she's just so kind-hearted and she truly has a servant heart.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: And she not only has been our surrogate, um, I'll let her talk to you about her journey, but she tried for a couple other families.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but she has three beautiful, amazing kids of her own and a very loving husband.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_03: The two of them are like high school sweethearts and still madly in love, and they're so cute.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_03: They have the best family ever.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_04: I think I read that you guys met each other when you were 10.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, babe, that's correct.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_04: Whoa.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_04: That's amazing.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_02: We were at the bus stop.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Bus stop.
• 3:26
  unknown: Yeah.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: I love it.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_04: He's so cute.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_04: So, what was it that like drew you to him?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Honestly, I don't know because I never like I fell in love with him before I talked to him.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_02: So he was sitting in his mom's van, you know, like with his glasses on, holding his old backpack straps, and I looked at my mom, I'm like, I'm gonna marry him.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_02: Did you really say that?
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: I did, yeah.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Never even knew his name, never talked to him, didn't know what he sounded like.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_02: You just got a vibe.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_02: I just got a vibe, and we dated throughout middle school and high school, and he went off to college and then came back, and 16 years later, here we are.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, 42 this year, so we've known each other for 32 years.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_03: And no, I'm not kidding, they really are like still in love.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_03: Like anytime they're around each other, they're holding hands.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's not like they anyway, so yeah, she's like she's the imperial of love, and um, she's just a really awesome person.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_03: So why don't you tell us, Ray?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_03: Like, what put this upon your heart to be a surrogate, like in the first place?
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't even know if I've ever even asked you selfishly about this question.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_03: I want to hear your whole story.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: So when I was in high school, I met a couple friends and um they got married before I did.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think it's like three years before us.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um, they were trying, they tried and tried.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: And here I am, like, we got married in 2010, and then we had Addison a year and two weeks later.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: She's my pill baby, love her to death.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: And then 18 months later, we found out we were pregnant with our daughter Emma and um IUD baby, and here I am sitting there nine months pregnant, and she's you know, making a post on Facebook again, and I'm just sitting here thinking, like, how am I so lucky to be able to have children when there's women that can't?
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, I was talking to her and you know, she was telling me about IVF, and I was like, Oh, I don't know what that is.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, just deep diving, you know, to the internet, and you know, you hear all the things on the internet.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: So, um, so I sent her a message and I was like, Hey, you know, after I have Emma, you know, if you're still not able to get pregnant, like you know, I've heard about surrogacy, you know, I would love to, you know, carry for you so you guys could have a baby.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_04: So this was a friend?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: A friend, yes.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like a Facebook friend or like a we went to middle school and high school together.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_04: That's incredible.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so I feel like for someone to want to carry a baby for someone else, it is like the ultimate like self-sacrifice.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_04: Like I can't think of anything, like any greater love than like giving another woman a baby.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_04: So my question is you saw this lady on Facebook, a friend from middle school, and you said, Hey, DM'd her.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_04: You like slid into her DMs and was like, I'll have your baby if you can't.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_04: That's pretty incredible.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then she sent me a message back, she goes, actually, I'm pregnant.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_02: She goes, I just can't wait to scream it from the rooftop.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: She goes, We have to wait for, you know, the they wanted to wait the four months or whatever it was that she chose.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like so excited, like I started crying, and I'm like, Yeah, you know, like the happy dance on the couch.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: But then yeah, we had Emma, and I was doing more dive into surrogacy and being able to do it because some of my family also has problems having a baby.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_02: So my niece was cousins or sisters.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was my niece, yeah.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, she she had a a problem, and we actually got pregnant, she got pregnant a few months before I got pregnant with Beckham.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_02: So looking into surrogacy, they are saying make sure your family's done, you know, just in case something happens, like you have to be content.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, my husband and I started talking, and I'm like, we just don't feel complete, you know.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: This was after two.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: After two, this is after M1.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, ma'am, yes, ma'am.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it was like the end of 2015 when like we really started talking about having another one.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then Valentine's Day the next year, we're like, okay, we want one more.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: And we're gonna try for the boy, you know.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: We had two girls, and and then a week later we conceived Dexter.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_02: It is, yeah.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_04: So not only was it a week later, but it was also the gender that you were wanting.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, that's pretty incredible.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_03: She thinks about it.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: So it it is a blessing, and you know, you really don't realize how much of a blessing it is to be able to carry a child.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you know somebody that walks through that part of their life, like you don't know like the feeling, or you know, I still don't know, but like I know some of it.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so once we had Dexter, we were like, you know, really diving in, like he was two, so we're like, this is great.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_02: There's kind of self-sufficient at that age, she's sleeping through the night.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, we got this.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_04: So and how old were you at this point?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was 36.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_04: So early on, it was always this desire to want to give that to someone.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yes, ma'am.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, cool.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_04: So then it's just like as you're trying to complete your family, now you're kind of like at the point where like, okay, like we feel like we're done, but you're still in childbearing years.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_04: So there is that window, right?
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_04: Because what did you say, Lindsay, one time that was it 40 for a surrogate that you're capped at 41?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think now it's 44, but when we started it was 42.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: They ASRM guidelines change all the time.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's always been something that I wanted to do is help.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: Because it comes so easy and naturally.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I had three amazing pregnancies, no problems.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Births were awesome.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: Four.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: But at this point we had three.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was so Dexter's two, and then take us through like what happens after that.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: So we started looking up agencies.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: So I was looking at this one agency that was close by, but they were very big on termination.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not to where if the parents want to terminate because it's the wrong anything, they're like, We have abortions.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: Got it.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I was not comfortable with that.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not, that's just me.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um question for you is that like a state-directed thing?
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_04: Because I know that there's that lawsuit right now where the surrogate was carrying a child for it was like an Indian couple, and there was something genetically wrong for the baby.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_04: So the intended parents wanted to abort and she didn't.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: So is that like a state thing?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_04: Is it like a surrogacy agency thing?
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like who makes those rules?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's more of an agency thing, but I'm not sure.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_03: I would say that's legal.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_03: I would say it's legal because in the paper where we had a sign, we had to address all of those.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_03: So I would think it's more legal, but this agency didn't give you a voice.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, there was no voice even legal for that.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_03: But if from the agency perspective, what it sounds like is they were pro-intended parents over Sarrogate's voice, right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_04: Got it.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: So I see what you're saying.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_04: So for so you went to this agency, and so for any reason at all, if the intended parents wanted you to abort, then you had to.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_04: We had to, yeah, yeah, no matter what.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that's tough.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: We were allowed to get a second opinion, but it was more of like medical reasons.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_02: But if the intended parents wanted to, then it was we had to comply, and that's not where my heart was.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Right, totally.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, I can't do that one.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, absolutely.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so you find your agency, uh, Katie, and then do you mind like taking us through what your compensation was and how all of that worked?
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so um my compensation was$35,000.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as a first-time surrogate that didn't have insurance.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_02: So the compensation will did it has a bunch of factors into it.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you're a repeat surrogate or if you have insurance that covers and what your insurance policy is like.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you're in network, out of network.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: So all those things factor into the your compensation.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_04: And then how do you determine if you're in network or out of network?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_04: Because are you coming to Orlando to go to like one of Lindsay's hospitals, or are you going to a hospital where you are?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we would go, we pick our own OBs and we pick our hospitals.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so we just had to going into contracts, let them know that I didn't deliver at a level two NICU.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_04: Got it.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I delivered in St.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_02: Augustine because I wanted to use my midwives.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_02: And because I had healthy deliveries, that I was allowed to.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: We were allowed to choose midwives.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_02: But we had to know that if anything went wrong in the pregnancy, we would have to go to that level two NICU, which would have been Halifax, which is in Daytona.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_03: And that's something it also in the contract that you kind of negotiate.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_03: So, like if you wanted, I think we put level two, we were fine with, but some people can say no, absolutely, level one you're going to, which could have been like Arnold Palmer or Sourlando.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, so it that's all in the again, it's all in the contracts what the intended parents and the surrogate agree upon.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_04: And so I remember you saying before that there's like a tier.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_04: So, like now, after having like a healthy pregnancy, like what would you get paid now?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: So now it'd probably be around 60 to 65,000 is what a um an experienced surrogate would get paid.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_04: So that would be your fee.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_04: So what would like an intended parent pay these days?
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh well then, so our total cost was like honestly, like 80 between the agency fees, uh, attorney.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_04: And Ray walked away with 35,000 of that.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_04: And so now, like if someone wanted to use a surrogate today, obviously prices have increased quite dramatically.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_04: So you're looking at around$100,000 and then um like the fee for a surrogate, is it still could it still be in that$35,000 range, or has the have the tiers like bumped up since then?
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: I think they've bumped up.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: So probably like$45,000 for a first time.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_02: For a first time no insurance, you're probably looking like$45,000,$50,000.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, up to like$70,000 for the fee for the surrogate.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: It's crazy because you've you think about what you guys get out of the whole package with what you do.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_03: It's I mean, it's a lot of money, but still it's I don't know, it's priceless, really.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_03: If you put it it's priceless what you guys have the ability to do with surrogates.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: But so okay, so then you're matched with a surrogacy.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: So was I.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_03: I think before you even actually uh submitted your application, because we were thinking about signing on, and they told me on that initial call we think we have someone for you, before we even like did all the formal, but they didn't they like kept you behind a curtain and they wouldn't tell me anything about you.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_03: I think that they said she's close to you, and I think you guys would be a good fit because they that's what they do, they kind of match me here based on personalities and your questionnaire and everything.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think I was already given the teaser on you.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: So was I too.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: So when we submitted the application, they were going through the questions and you know, they go through the intake and they ask you like a lot of your medical questions and your history.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: And when I went to um when I was going through it, they're like, we have the perfect set of intended parents for you.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like they're close, you know, they're in Florida, they're about an hour and a half from you.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we have to send you more profiles, but we know you're gonna choose this one, so we're gonna send you this one first.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: And when we read the profile, the picture got me of you guys with your cars outfit.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, oh my gosh, family goals, right?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_03: We were all dressed up for Halloween, and we were all.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and yeah, we were what Gavin was in his little car uniform.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_03: I was a race car driver.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_03: Matt was like a little mechanic.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_03: That's what I'm saying.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was just so cute.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we I mean, we've read the story, you know, you cry when you read stories, you know, especially with a background like mine.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: You're like, how did I get so lucky?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and you just like I said, you never realize until you go through it.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_02: So we cried a lot over their profile, and you know, we prayed on it.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_02: And I I mean, I think maybe at 45 minutes to an hour later, I'm like messaging Angela, and I'm like, Yes, this is the profile I want.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's amazing.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_03: So it was and I think I had to wait.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_03: You had to wait.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_03: I had to wait.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_03: See, it's all like a matching game.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I had to wait till she wanted me, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_03: And then I got her profile.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_03: And sh I remember your picture, and I was like, Yep, that's it.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_03: She had it was like they were all doing a group hug.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_03: It wasn't like this picture perfect, like uh professional photographer.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_03: It was literally them all in like bed, snuggled up.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: We were on the couch, and they and she just did a selfie, and it was just like a fam, like a loving family.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_03: And I said, Oh my gosh, yep, okay, I know Beckham.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I didn't know that I actually thought you would have a girl at first.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I want that for my baby to have.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: If I can't carry, I want that environment that I know that baby's gonna hear what's going on.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_03: I know they're gonna get hugs, and and I just knew it, and that's what chose me to go to you with your profile.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_03: So I accepted.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: That's so funny.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_03: It makes me think of like the dating app.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, I have been out of the dating game for a long time.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_04: But it's like, what is it, bumble, where the girl has to like initiate or she has to like first, and then the guy can like, I don't know.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not on any of dating apps, but it's kind of like how the game goes, the surrogacy game.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that was the big thing that uh surrogate solutions says is they've had enough heartbreak that they want they don't want to get set on a surrogate that they like, and then the surrogates are like there's you know, that's not the one for me, or um, you know, all the things.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_02: So they want the surrogates family to choose the IPs first.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then once we choose, it's like we have to go into like the website and sign things, and then they send our profile off to them.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then now it's like the nervous waiting game is do they like me?
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: Do they like my profile?
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, did I say anything for you?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, it just keeps getting weird.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_03: It's just kind of a weird thing, but it you just work through the weird because there's so many more like really cool things, right?
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, so so then we so then we said yes.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_03: So then how did you tell your family?
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_02: So the kids was, it took me a little bit to figure out how to tell the kids because they were still young, but not young enough.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but we you know, we told the girl, you know, the girls they had questions.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, what do you mean you're gonna have a baby for somebody else?
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we can't keep this baby, and I'm like, no, honey, it's not mommy's.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like, like we go to Nana's house, and they're like, Yeah, so our oven's broke, so we're gonna go bake cookies.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we take the cookies to Nana's house and we cook them in the oven.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we bake them in the oven.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_02: But are they Nana's or are they ours?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: We just borrowed Nana's oven, and they're like, Oh, I get it, mom.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like that's just that's a good analogy.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_03: This is a good analogy, especially for their ages, because they were how old?
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Beckham's five, so six, so Addy was nine.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like nine, seven, and three.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_03: Dex was three.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I remember.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he was still little.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: They were tiny.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_02: Not no more.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, that's a good analogy.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: Good job.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: So that's just what you know.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: My husband and I chose to, you know, explain it to them.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then, you know, once they were able to meet, you know, Matt and Lindsay, it like started like setting in and they were like asking questions.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't know how to answer that question, honey.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like what?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like, why can't she carry a baby?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, why doesn't her belly work?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, well, honey, sometimes you just don't know, and you know, medical reasons are medical reasons, you know.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_02: So we we never really wanted to invade too much of the privacy because it is it's I don't want to say traumatizing, but it is like it brings up memories and you know, hurts, and you know, we just never wanted that in our relationship with the intended parents.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: So it was just more of it's okay, honey, it's like her, you know, her tummy doesn't work, so they're gonna borrow mommy's tummy.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay, so I feel like at this point in the conversation, I really want to bring in a question that one of our uh friends had asked us, and so I'll just kind of read her question and then we can talk about it.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_04: But she said, as intended parents, of course, we want to feel involved, informed, and protective because it's our baby, but at the same time, the surrogate deserves privacy, autonomy, and space.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: So she was asking, I'd love to hear how surrogates feel about that balance too.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_04: What makes them feel supported versus how can you start to feel controlling or invasive?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_04: So, kind of like from that question, like how did you guys set the boundaries early on?
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_04: Like, was it more Lindsay directed?
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_04: Was it more you directed?
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was more, I think it was both, but like we we had a conversation amazing.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like we had a conversation, and Lindsay's like, you know, you've done this three times.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, I don't know.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: She goes, You've done this, you're pro.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: She goes, just don't eat the wrong things.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: Don't eat startings.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: She goes, you know what you're supposed to do and not supposed to do.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: But um, and then ever since then, it was just I sent like daily texts, videos, like we FaceTimed all the time, like they were at every appointment.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_02: So it was more of I'm an open person anyway.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can ask me a question.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like I am too.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_03: Like I feel like it was just her.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: personalities she made you feel safe right and also when you're going she yes like uh you know since you've met her she's just very warm there's a way about her you know she's sincere um we had to go through psycholog psychological group sessions like we we met before like before any of this happens you're doing doctor's appointment before she's actually pregnant you're getting to know each other a lot better because you're going to doctor's appointments you're go you're you're communicating you're seeing each other um and honestly there's some responsibility I feel in that question to indignant parents where you have to learn how to trust I mean this person is carrying your child they've already carried a child before just like I said she's obviously knows what she's doing she had three healthy ones um and I wanted to make her feel like she's this is her body you know just please like whatever you have done can you do it again I need a healthy baby okay and and then she you were just so wonderful herself I never had asked she would be like sorry I'm sending so many pictures and whatever and so I never even had to ask but I can't imagine like there's different situations for someone that maybe doesn't like to be on their phone or um maybe it's more private.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah I mean that's a hard one that's a case by case but I don't know do you have any other you I wasn't the only intended parent that in your journey.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: In my journey yes um so how did it differ?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_02: So the other thing is in the contracts you have to say that you will contact the intended parents at least once a week.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: Oh there is that in the contract where you have to abide by that but even with the other intended parents that I had it was um not as much conversation.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: We did text a lot but it wasn't I don't know like the relationships are different with each parent.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: Some want more some want less you know some are like very needy and they're like no like you I need this like you need to do a close up you need this type of light or yeah it's this type of light for like a belly bomb picture something that and like pregnancy tests and you know all the things.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_02: So they just it's it is it's hard because you're learning new parents so especially when you get so comfortable with your first set like I mean even our therapist was like I've never seen a match so perfect between you two.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: So it was very with the other ones it was a good match but it wasn't we didn't have the chemistry.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: The warm and fuzzies the warm and fuzzies yeah which I love my other IPs or intended parents like don't get me wrong but it's you could definitely tell it was just natural I felt like it was um it was it was just very natural like it was all it's all a little awkward because you're it's new and you know you're you're basically in a sense merging two families for the same goal right like that you're bringing a child to life and there's two it takes two families that's where like a village comes from but one thing I will say to that as a surrogate and that was something I I remember reading somewhere in different cultures right like Middle Eastern are not allowed to eat certain things I like meat or something like that.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: And they would they would have the surrogate do the same thing that's in their culture that they wouldn't be able to do during their pregnancy correct correct yes so that's all in the contracts so if they want you to eat a certain way or if you have to have a certain diet or you know we want you to go to acupuncture we want you to go to these different therapy things then they have to put that all in the contract um but it was very organic with what we had like it was just she's like I trust you I did remember texting her like hey I'm so sorry I'm eating a bison burger is that okay I remember that I was like I seriously don't eat red meat this was what this was early on did we want to eat red meat no she knew I didn't eat when now I do though oh um but at that time I didn't and she texted me she's like hey I hope you're not mad but I'm having a bison burger and I think I actually laughed out loud and I'm like good I hope it's good get some iron and that oh my gosh but okay so then so then we're matched so then kind of walk us back through again from your perspective our journey everything we went through and then beyond yeah so we we made it through we did the pictures you know we continued through we gave birth you know very healthy baby boy um just pause delivery room so here's Joe's biggest fear right yes uh the day came party the cake the party in the delivery room it is here so it was it was great like we got there at 4 a.m for induce baby okay so this is scheduled so it's an induction so that everyone can be there spot it so we wanted to make sure the parents were there right so um how far along were you 39 weeks and two days okay so we go into St.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: Augustine and um so this is during COVID.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right so this is May of 21 like right in the middle of it.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: So when we were trying to find a hospital we were trying the other thing is are they allowing the attended parents to come in the room yeah during COVID like some spouses weren't even allowed to go in to the exams ultrasounds.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: So when I spoke with um my OBGYN they're like they're the parents bring them in so that was very nice.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_02: So they were at every appointment and then I went up to the CEO of the hospital and I'm like hey this is what it is I know your policy for the hospital but these are the parents like I'm not the parent like I'm you know I'm the surrogate like we need to make sure that they're able to be in the room and she's like that's fine so they put a note in my chart so um we got there at 4 a.m I was late of course Lindsay crashed in a way of late but that's fine because Oh wait seriously you mentioned the birth of my own child that's bad so when did you show up Lindsay?
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_02: Probably 10 foot maybe 30 minutes later I knew it was gonna happen like we're gonna get up she needed time to get set so I mean which was good because we got in there and we're like okay the parents are coming up and they're you know they're like oh nobody else is allowed in the room and I'm like you might want to check my file before you say that like and then she looks down and she's like oh right this way so like we had to make sure because you know the whole COVID thing but so we get in there and um they hook me up to all the things you know the monitors the IVs and um don't want the epidural yet because it's still too early they started the Potosin and you know Matt and Lindsay come in and they're freezing.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like having a heat though because it's so hot.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_03: She is like sweating bullets.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's Matt, her husband Joe and myself and we're asking not for she doesn't need anything we're asking for every blanket on the labor and delivery floor they have because we are just I we have a picture I'll have to I'll have to send it to it we just froze this out but we were so sorry don't be sorry it was just funny it was a core memory from that that morning I get very hot in in labor yeah um because you know your body is going through the transitions and and um so before like I have the epidural like we're able to get up and move and so I'm like okay I have to use the restroom and here I am you know in the gown and I'm like okay Matt close your eyes oh no because you have to get out of the bed yeah and the way they hooked everything up it was my left side and that's where Matt and Lindsay was sitting with on the left side and I'm just like you know you're thinking oh this is not what they need to see like they just want their baby like they don't want to see the the fun parts of it um and this way you get back into bed and I felt so bad because like why did you feel bad well because they broke my water and when you have a contraction the water comes out and it's on the floor right in front of Matt and then I'm like oh this is so gross.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't even think we've noticed that thank God I can't imagine that though like giving birth and having that like I mean because like it's all out there when you're giving birth you know well you know right and I remember after you wrote a whole Facebook post that was so good.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_03: And we'll have to share it too um with how she felt that day giving birth because you know there's that extra layer in her you're not like you're like I've got like other people in here right and that's how you felt like that's how she was telling that's how she felt to herself during that card.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I felt like I couldn't show my pain because of everything that they've been through like all of the pain that they walked through and carried you know that they carry on their shoulders and they still probably carry all that pain on their shoulders you know so it's like I'm hiding my face as a tear you know and then you know my husband knows like exactly when to come up and comfort and so he's like wiping the tear away and I'm like they can't see it stop like don't draw attention to it you know and you know why?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: Because the epidural never kicked in never worked.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no yeah so that's a whole story in itself but um so they had a planned C-section and then they were gonna come do my epidural and then they had another planned C-section.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well when they were supposed to come do my epidural there was an emergency C-section.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to wait an extra like three hours to get the epidural so yeah it was so how many centimeters were you dilated when you got the epidural it was like seven eight somewhere around there it was it was we were pretty far we were pretty in the in the whole transitional process.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh yeah okay so you get to 10 centimeters you're ready to push yeah talk us through what happens like at that point so this is amazing yeah like this is like so my anxiety is really high like through the whole thing and so I start pushing and my husband's on my right side and Lindsay's on my left side Matt's up by my head and um I'm sitting here thinking oh my gosh like she wants to deliver this child and all the glory is just down there and it's like embarrassing yeah and like nerve-wracking at the same time so I think I pushed for eight minutes.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it was not even and she went hard she she knew what she was doing no I didn't get that baby out all right yeah she just like when it was time she's like all right got this number four and you did it yeah so so then my midwife was amazing and she's like okay Lindsay it's time for us to swap spots so the nurse took my other leg and Lindsay went down with the midwife and she you know pulled him out and it was so amazing yeah that was so special yeah that made me feel like I was part of it though it's your journey too it made me feel so it made me just feel like I had one little thing because he wasn't fully out yet like you know what I mean made me feel like I was just part of like seeing and you know with Gavin we never were got to see we weren't in the hospital we came the next day I don't know anything about his first story it was just so so so special that was amazing and she was just like she got the baby out and then we took I remember we had her and I immediately remember being like we gotta put the baby on her now like she did this like I was so great I was so excited to meet him but like once I finally got that hug and a kiss I was like this yeah as I'm like they're delivering the placenta she's like look and I'm like okay there need like three more you're like hold on this thing you've got to give me a minute I got I need a minute like they're not done yet you know but like all the fears and the anxiety like as soon as she like saw him and held him it was just I'm gonna cry I can't just know that I'm able to give another woman that something that I've taken for granted you know it's it's it's pretty special.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_04: It is I can't think of anything more selfless giving some like doing that for another woman that's pretty special and spectacular it was amazing.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_03: I still don't even know how to say thank you.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_03: Like how do you even tell somebody there are no words there are no words yeah there there's just like literally no words and I I'm just so grateful.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_03: Again not even not even for like you and and having back on butt for like you and our relationship and and our families and to meet another family that's willing to be and listen like honestly her husband came right over and I think he grabbed her and was like look what you did right he grabbed her and he was like look because when then after I grabbed then after I put him on her I grabbed the baby back and I and Matt and I huddled up together and then that we had our moment and and Joe walked over to her and was like look what you did and it was it was just like a whole group effort and I think anyone that doesn't know surrogacy or you know that there's not it could be very intimidating all these steps you do.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_03: But at the end of the day what it truly is is two families coming together as a village right to for this life for Beckham.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean look at him now he's this wild little child and he would not have had life if it wasn't for her like and her family that stood beside her.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_03: Our connection that you know will be unbreakable forever and ever probably even beyond when we're here like it's yeah it's forever.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_02: So then she had she had Beckham talk to everybody a little bit about how you struggled with the postpartum because this was your first when you came back and then you didn't have a baby right after all the things you've ever known up until this point you kind of know but now you're at home we have the baby we're kind of taking some quiet time the pictures and everything are s are slowing down because she's not pregnant and like describe that because that was challenging I remember that it was challenging like they you go through the psych and they tell you like you're gonna go home without a baby and you're still gonna have the recovery and you still have to get up and do things and you know you don't have the sleepless nights and you know you're gonna get engorged and you know if they don't want breast milk or if they do.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it was just it was hard going home not having a baby after doing it three times and taking one home.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Especially the kids the kids are like Mom where's Becca because they didn't come see him in the hospital.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like Becca's live with his mommy and so when you go through postpartum after having a kid like your hormones come down.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah they're plummeting plummet so fast you're getting night sweats obviously your breasts are gorged you know yeah the pain and so when you go from talking to somebody every day multiple times a day to like crickets I know she had beckum you know we know that they were getting into the routine because we know what the routine is but it's just like what did I do wrong?
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_02: Did I do something wrong in delivery?
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: Did they see something they didn't like?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Like was I too loud did I scream too loud like you felt that I felt that because they weren't like texting you like they had pre-baby yes but got it and we knew that it was gonna happen um but it was more like it's here it's reality.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can say all the things and you know you can know what you're walking into until it's there.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like it changes.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not everything that you know it's gonna be even though you think you know what it's gonna be you really you don't know.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_04: Well I remember my wedding and it just being this like big buildup.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_04: And there's all these people and there's all these events and my mom has spent all this money and then I remember Late and I when we were like driving away in the car I just started crying because it's like this like emotional letdown not that it was not the most spectacular night of my life but I think sometimes when you're like over the hump of like something big that you've built up in your mind there is that like emotional release or emotional letdown where you're like where is this all coming from and then you're a little bit like sad that it's over you know yeah there's a lot of sadness that it's over but you know when you know a couple days later they messaged videos and pictures and it was like okay he's at home you know he's settling in and um I cried when they sent the picture so I did the the belly cast.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah so it was the one and only time I ever did it.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: And then I overnight it's UPS and they got it the day they did his photos and so they sent me the picture of Hibid she's like he was crying until we laid him down and then he stopped and I'm just like because it was crazy because it was her belly right so like we had like a little it was like his face and her belly like when we did the newborn photos we put them in there and he stopped crying.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_02: It was wild yeah and it just reminded you of the why yeah the why you did it this is why they have their why like so it just you know set the fears at ease and then you get into a new part of the relationship as okay they'll text me like when he does something or you know first birthdays you know maybe you know we'll be able to be invited and you know those are all the things that you talk about.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_03: He ended up having you come over like when he was a month.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_04: A month old yeah so the kids could see him yeah because the kids were like what where especially Dexter three yeah like where's the baby yeah okay so Lindsay so you obviously weren't able to carry a child right you have Gavin through adoption you weren't there for his birth and so now you're at Beckham's birth like what were you feeling when as like you were pulling him out I was just so overwhelmed with emotion.
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah like I so I had been in the delivery room with my sisters so I have three um a niece and two nephews and I was with my sisters and all of them so I've been through birth so I kind of was comfortable with what was what to expect um and I didn't feel any awkward I thought she was like the strongest woman I know because she was like smiling in bed because little did I know she was like hiding it.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_03: No I think I knew she was hiding it but she was just like such an Amazon like amazing strong woman there.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_03: And she didn't tell me the epidural didn't kick in till after she had birth so I had no idea she was like feeling everything.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: But we were just like when he came out and I like got to pull him out I was just completely overwhelmed with emotion.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_03: I mean just from head to toe just like you would like you guys all did when you had your babies but I I never got to see you know Gavin and I like all of a sudden it was like reality because I would see her belly and you know I would say little things she would play with she could play to him or whatever and you know Matt and I would touch it but it's still her body it was still her body right you know I didn't want to be all over her and um that was like the first time I was just like wow and I from IBF I just thought about this boy found me right beckum found his way to me found his way to us.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_03: I literally was in like my little meditation room when I was going through IBF when his I remember when he was an egg before retrieval talking to him and every step along the way I would just talk to him.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_03: I remember talking to like the three embryos I had then the two embryos I had then the last embryo I always talk to them and I was like listen like you found your way to me like that's it was just like thank you God and I remember being in that room and um the way maker remember that's the it's a a song and I'm not gonna try to sing again because it was the last time I tried but it was so it was exactly I try to sing you a song and it's just awful like I have no toe.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: But it's the Waymaker and it was like um Waymaker God is in miracle worker God is in this place he is in every phase like whatever it was that that's what that room was during that time because um it was just truly a miracle and it was a heart of she listened to God's calling I listened to God's calling and Beckham somehow pulled it through, and it was we had our two husbands right there that were supporting us with our decisions that they even had a beer, remember?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: They didn't left us alone.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: They left us alone when we were awaiting.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_03: When we were awaiting for the room, our rooms, and Joe, Matt and Joe went across the street and had uh lunch and a beer.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_03: That's so cool.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: Then they brought us lunch, like I couldn't eat.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: So, like when they induced me at four, he was born at 111.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like that whole time you can't eat.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_02: And then they came back like an hour and a half later, and I'm like, my food was cold.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't care, I'm so hungry.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh, yeah.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_03: So um, but you know, it was it was just we had an incredible experience, and you know, everybody differs, but I finish with now you're recovered.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_03: How long did you have to recover from giving birth to Beckham till you were able to jump on another journey with someone?
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: So it's usually between six months to 12 months with the OY OBGYN.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_02: Like you have to go get clearance.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: So when I went into um my midwife's, um, we were we were talking, and I was like, okay, you know, this is I want to jump back into another journey.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, you're gonna be perfect, like you've had like amazing pregnancies, deliveries, and they're like, okay, six months, I'll sign off.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: So then the agency was like, usually it's a year, but okay, we'll we'll start getting you matched again.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: So it was we our first transfer with the second um intended parents was April of 22.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: So it's not even a year after I gave birth to Beckham.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: I was in line for another transfer.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and so how did that transfer go?
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the transfer took, I got pregnant, but it didn't continue.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_02: So um, we're not sure why.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they did a whole bunch of testing and um a bunch of blood work, and they're like they did the receptiva test.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: Right, yeah.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if you've ever had one of those.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're not very comfortable.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they take uh about two inches of your uterine lining and send it off for biopsy.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: We were just talking about no drugs.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, on the last episode.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_02: It's awful, yeah.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's the uterine scratch, isn't that what they call it?
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the hysteroscopy.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh okay.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_02: The receptiva test is they do like a big hole punch through your whole uterine lining.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like about two inches of just tissue.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_02: And um they send it off for to test for endometriosis and like why you're not carrying and or why you can't continue on with the pregnancy, and all of mine came back fine.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like there was nothing, all my blood work was fine, everything was fine, you know, besides the hiccup of the STI tests.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: But um other than that, it was they couldn't figure out why.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_04: So you lose that pregnancy, and then did you continue with another transfer with that family?
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: We did.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: The contract was three.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to do what the contract says.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: So we went to three transfers.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: And nothing took.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Nothing took.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I would get pregnant and then it would drop off.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, every time.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: Every time, yeah.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh wow, interesting.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: It was just weird because it's never like they call them chemical pregnancies.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: So it's nothing that I've ever experienced.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: So like I didn't know what it was, and you know.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_04: Well, you kind of wonder with you having so many healthy pregnancies, if it's more an embryo issue at that point, you know what I mean?
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you start to think, and then you know, we're as surrogates, we're not allowed to um have that information of the embryos.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we're not allowed to know what the grade is, we're not allowed.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so it's um it's their private medical that we're not allowed to know.
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it's we can't ask him what's your embryo grade.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like, is it a 5AA?
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a 5AB?
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a three-day embryo?
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: Is it a five-day embryo?
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's things that we're not privileged to when it comes to transfers.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's just up to the clinics on when they transfer and what they transfer.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: Got it.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's interesting.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_03: Which kind of is like, I mean, we're gonna emerge it all the time.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: Let's go.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_03: If we're if we're going, we want to get pregnant.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_03: You know what I mean?
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_03: Like, don't.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_03: I want just I want some good quality embryos.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_03: Like, but no, you don't get that say.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you just you just have to, you just have to go with whatever they have.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_03: And do you find out at the transfer?
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_03: Will you know?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: They don't let us know at all.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: The only way we would know is if the IPs gave us access, sorry, intended parents gave us access to what the embryo quality is of with their PG, PGA or PGS testing.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: PGT PGT testing.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_04: So after the three failed, did you feel like you needed a break or were you ready to continue on with another family?
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: I took a little bit of a break because that journey was very mentally tasking.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so a lot of it goes with the clinics.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: So if you don't have a good clinic or you don't have a good rapport with a clinic, it's it's really um it's taxing.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Because it's they require things that you're like, that's not gonna work.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_02: Like I'm a natural protocol, like I can't do birth control.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is the things that we have proven, you know, with my first journey, like this is what I need, and they're like, no, this is what we do.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_03: Oh wow, if you can't like defy the frustrating Even though we had H and for our first transfer with Ray, I've shared this before, but they did a medicated cycle on her, and and we think that could have been the reason is because her body almost like it was too much, it was over medicated.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_03: She's used to natural.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_03: So they took they dumbed it down and they put her on more of a natural, and that's when she conceived Beckham.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_03: So she had the data she just was using a different clinic because they were geographically different.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_03: So that's tough.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, and they weren't listening to you.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_02: So they don't listen to the surrogates, it's more they listen to more of the IPs, but if the IPs don't stand firm and stand behind or next to their surrogates, it's more of a okay, then we're doing what our protocol is.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: Type type scenario when it comes to other clinics.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_02: So um, so I I was on a lot of meds that's tough for all of those cycles.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_02: And my body doesn't do meds very well.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_04: I did the natural cycles as well, cycle as well.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I can't do birth control.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_04: I bleed right through it.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_04: I can't.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_04: My body does not like it.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_04: I had a TIA, so my body definitely is not good with all of the extra hormones.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_04: So kind of wrapping up, is there anything that Wait, she had one more journey?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, one more.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: You had one more journey, right?
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_03: We did, yes.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_03: So then that one didn't work.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_03: So then what how long till you had you you tried for the last family?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: So we waited about a year between our second journey and our third one.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then we got matched um with a great couple, and then so their clinic was in Texas.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: So when we went to Texas, um we had to I fly over there, so we we we flew over there and they write on a medicated protocol.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, this doesn't work for me.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: And they're like, Well, you can't get pregnant.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, well, my husband's had a vasectomy, like, and we made sure we went and had another sperm count test done just to turn into the clinics to say, hey, there's still zero, so there's no chance I'm getting pregnant, so we can do the natural protocol.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we tried with this one to let them know up front that there's no way I'm getting pregnant unless the good lord really wants us to.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: And they didn't listen to you?
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_02: They know.
• 51:53
  SPEAKER_02: So they did another medicated protocol, um, got pregnant, the numbers weren't high, and it dropped.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: So then they waited, that was they waited was like three months later, they did another transfer because they were doing like all the blood work and everything, and we had to line up to go to Texas again.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then that time they did the natural protocol.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: So, but in order for this clinic for me to do a natural protocol, which was different than Lindsay's clinic, is I had to stay in Texas for a week and a half.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to go to the clinic every day because they had to test my follicles and they had to check and see how big they were ready for the trigger shot.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: So they upped my trance for like a whole week because they're like, I've never seen somebody's body respond so well to a natural protocol.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, the things that the clinics don't understand is we're not their normal patients.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, we're not the normal clients that they deal with.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like our bodies know how to do this.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: And they should listen to the surrogates a little more when it comes to us saying this doesn't work for me.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: Because now you're wasting IP's uh intended parents' money, that you're wasting their time, their heartache, you know, their everything, you know.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like if they would just listen, I believe, to the surrogates a little more, the clinics, it would be a little easier, I think, for everybody.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that when we got pregnant, the natural protocol, we made it eight weeks, and then we had uh I had a miscarriage.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm so sorry.
• 53:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was my first one, and that was very hard.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Really?
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: It I took it really hard.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_04: What was the hardest part?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_04: The emotional or the physical?
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_02: It was more of the emotional part of it because we had I had what was called a missed miscarriage.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that's where my body doesn't know it's miscarrying, but there was no um embryo inside.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like everything was there, the pole was there, but there was just no, you know, baby attached to it.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: So we had to administer medic administer medicine at home.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that was the hardest.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_02: The hardest part was actually having to do it.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like I'm never having an abortion, like I'm never doing this, I'm never, and then here we are, like laying in our bed.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is what we have to do.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it wasn't an abortion, right?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't an abortion pill.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: But they're the abortion pills, they're the abortion pills, then that they make sure they tell you that.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is the abortion pills, this is what you're gonna take to abort the products of conception, is what they call it.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just like that's not what it is, it's a baby.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I don't know why terminology has to be so degrading, sure, when it comes to the touchiness of everything that they deal with.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I know they have to be desensitized and disassociate with it, but it's like these women are going through this like a little bit more compassion for them, just a little bit, you know.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_02: It just feels very sterile, very sterile, yeah.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: Very cold, very like this is just what we do, and this is you know the steps that we take for it.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_03: So um and that was really hard physically because you didn't stop bleeding, right?
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_02: For a long time.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: So that was Christmas Eve of 23.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I kept going back to the doctor, and they're like, it takes you know a while for your body to clear everything out, you know, and get back on the normal cycle of your normal period cycle.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: So finally it was almost four months later.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: You bled for four months until April, yeah.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was like nonstop.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_04: I wonder if your body is so reactive to medication.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_04: So when you took, I think it's like the Metro, I forget what the abortion pill is called, what whatever that abortion pill is, I wonder if your body just reacted so strongly to it.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_02: I they don't know.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I went to a different doctor and I was like, I need you to tell me what's going on.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, this is not normal, like I'm becoming anemic, like I'm tired, like I can't do anything.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: So she did another um histoscope and she found polyps.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_02: And as anybody can tell you through all of my journeys, I've had a very beautiful uterus, like there's no scarring, there's nothing.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_02: That word was used so a lot.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful uterus.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_03: Actually, it's true, it's a real thing.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_03: She has one.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the doctor in Texas, she's like, So what did they say?
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna let you figure that out.
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_02: She goes, You have a very beautiful uterus.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_02: I said, and there's the keywords, you know.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like every doctor that's ever did the transfer if it wasn't my normal doctor.
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_02: So she was seeing like all of these polyps on my uterus, and she's like, Ray, this isn't normal.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, No, it's not normal.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I have other ones I can compare it to.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_02: So she did a biopsy and it came back as retained placenta tissue.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: So it was all over.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_02: So I had to go in for it was like a week later for an emergency DNC.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_02: So then did you stop bleeding after the DNC?
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it took a little bit for my body to like relax from everything, but then I did stop.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but my cycles have been really weird since then.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it's like a normal thing they say after miscarriage for up to so many years, but yeah, it's been a little wonky, but nothing.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: I would not trade anything for my story.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_03: I I have one huge question for you.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_03: And this is for everyone going through IVF.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_03: You think about the women that go through these cycles, these harsh, medicated cycles on their body, and their end goal is for their miracle baby, but you're doing it for another family.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how did you have that drive?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, how many cycles did you do?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: Do you know?
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_03: Like, how many, like I mean, every cycle you're doing like progesterone shots and like because that is a natural, it's estrogen and progesterone is a natural.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_03: So you were they were upping that.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_03: You were doing the shots.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_03: How do you know how many shots you did?
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know the number on shots.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: I think the last time I counted it up, I was at almost a thousand shots between the seven different cycles that I did.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, that's crazy.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I did two for you, and then the other parents, we did the three transfers, but there was we did the cycle beforehand with the blood work that was wonky.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then it was two for the the third set.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_02: So that is crazy.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it was like seven or eight different cycles that that my body went through.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's wild.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_04: So any takeaways like 30,000 foot, like kind of like looking back on your journey from all these seven like transfers and cycles, like what would you tell like yourself at the beginning of your journey?
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_04: Knowing everything you know now.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_04: Be more stern.
• 58:51
  SPEAKER_02: Be more of an advocate, be more of an advocate for myself, yeah.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_02: Because you go into it thinking like you don't have a say because of a the contract, you know, it's a big contract that you're like a 50-page contract.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you go into it knowing thinking you don't really have a say for your body because ultimately, like our body belongs to them until the contract's done.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it would be be especially with clinics, be more of an advocate for for my body, like before you sign the contract or like during the pregnancy or during the situation.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_02: During the situation.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh-huh.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I fought a lot for my contracts.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_02: As Lindsay would know, I made sure like I was like, I could choose med protocol.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I made sure that we had the second opinion.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I made sure like I really don't want to do an amniocentesis.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: There's no need for an amniocentesis, I believe.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: So there's like certain things that I made sure was in our contracts.
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_02: But um the biggest one was they say if in this one I fought back on every contract, they say if there's a 5% chance you can die from carrying this child, they're gonna terminate the pregnancy.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, I remember this.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: Anytime a woman gets pregnant, it's a 50% chance you're gonna die anyway.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, why are you giving me a 5% chance when any other time a woman gets pregnant, it's a 50% chance that they can pass away, giving birth to the child.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I sat down, I had a conversation with Lindsay, and I'm like, if they don't come at me with a 95% chance this baby's coming to term.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, she was like, I'm you're choosing your this is how like selfless she is.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_03: I can't even make this up.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_03: Like, she's like in this, they're we're choosing the baby over me.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_04: And she has three.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_04: As long as the baby's viable, right?
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, past 24 weeks, yeah, 24 weeks, like all you do is just deliver the baby, right?
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_03: But she and and anytime they had to choose between the baby and her, they said choose the baby, not her and her contract.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_03: No, you were amazing.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, listen, we're I hope for listeners this was really enlightening to see an intended parent and a surrogate sit together because um there's I just feel like you know, knowledge is power, and maybe it just feels a little less scary for someone that wants to take the next step if IBF isn't working or if they have a medical condition, whatever it is.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, listen, it's a little weird, you know, it's a little weird at first, but it's the the um benefits outweigh the the risk in all of it.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_03: Listen, don't let it scare you.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's a beautiful thing.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_03: I'm gonna give you a hug because I love you.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for having my baby.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_03: You're very welcome.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_04: I love him.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_03: He's great.
• 1:01:51
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having my baby.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you so much for joining us on today's podcast.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_04: If you have been impacted by this episode, there are two things you can do for us.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_04: First is leave a review on Spotify or Apple Music.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_04: And second, is to share this with a friend who is struggling.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_04: This helps us to spread our message of hope for others.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_04: If you would like to get in touch with Lindsay or myself, please message us on Instagram at Infertile Diaries Podcast.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_04: Or you can go to our website at Whitneyhedeman.com, and everyone deserves a familygrants.com.