Latest / The Scene Projects / Paige Arnof-Fenn on Marketing, Startups, and Building a Strong Online Presence

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Paige Arnof-Fenn on Marketing, Startups, and Building a Strong Online Presence · The Scene Projects

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  This program is part of the Scene Projects podcast network.
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  Scene Project features interviews with independent musicians, comedians, and artists
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  from across the Midwest.
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  Become part of our community and support local art wherever you are.
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  Welcome in to another exciting episode of Real Biz.
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  I am your host, Bubba Starts, and with me today is my friend and founder of Mavens and Moguls,
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  Paige Arnauf Ben.
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  Paige, welcome to the show.
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  Thank you, Bubba.
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  I'm excited to talk to you today.
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  I am so thrilled to have you.
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  I feel almost a little sad that we didn't record our first conversation on the discovery
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  call, but, we're gonna we're gonna cover some of that today.
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  And, I'm just very grateful that you get to spend a little time with me.
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  So thanks for being here.
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  And, off the top of the show, I really just wanna give you an opportunity to, give us a
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  little introduction, a little bit of your backstory, and then we'll pick the conversation
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  up from there.
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  Sounds great.
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  Well, I started a marketing company about twenty four years ago, but my first job out of
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  college was in finance on Wall Street in the eighties.
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  And then I kinda pivoted into marketing after business school, and I've been in marketing
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  ever since.
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  I've had three chapters to my marketing career.
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  First, in kind of big brand corporate marketing at places like Procter and Gamble and Coca
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  Cola.
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  Then I ran marketing at three start up companies.
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  The first one was actually in the music business, Launch Media, launch.com.
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  It was it was acquired by Yahoo and became Yahoo Music.
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  And then I did two more startups as the head of marketing, and then I hung out a shingle right
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  after 09:11, and here I am.
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  Incredible stuff.
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  I I love your ties to the music industry, your ties to the Wolf of Wall Street.
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  Guilty guilty as charged.
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  Yeah.
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  Well, what a time to to be, alive, but but working on Wall Street, you know, some of the
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  worst times, some of the the craziest times, in the financial, you know, district down there.
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  And, yeah, then moving obviously into your own marketing, you know, companies.
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  But working with some huge brands in that time as well, what, I guess, what is it like to work
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  on a marketing team at a massive brand like a Coca Cola?
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  So Coke is probably the most recognized brand in the world.
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  Somewhere in the world, there is a Coke ad running every minute of every day.
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  What's great is it's a beloved brand.
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  Everybody kind of has a personal experience, and they have the budget to sponsor amazing
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  events, sporting events, the Oscars, you know, stadiums.
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  So it's it's one of those brands that's just part of your life.
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  The people are great.
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  The brands are great.
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  And, you know, there it's not just one product.
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  There are lots of different products.
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  And in different countries, they have things that they don't even sell here in The US.
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  But I loved working at Coca Cola and P and G.
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  They're the leader in every category they compete in.
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  Like I said, extremely well funded.
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  They work with the smartest brand brand leaders around the world, the employees, the agencies,
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  the partners they work with.
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  So it's a great place to kind of learn how to do it really well.
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  On the flip side, you know, these are huge organizations, lots of hierarchy, lots of
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  layers of management.
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  And because they invented, you know, P and G invented the concept of brand management,
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  running a brand like a business, and Coke's been doing it for more than a century.
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  You know, they have their way of doing things, and they just want you to stick to their plan.
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  So it's a little bit trickier if you are somebody who likes to shake things up and try
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  new things.
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  You know, you're you're really signing up for doing it their way.
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  The great thing is they've mastered the art of doing it their way, and it's kind of a
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  bulletproof process.
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  But, you know, I was one that always was trying to bend, break, or change the rules.
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  You know, if you talk to any of my bosses from that chapter of my career, they would tell you
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  I worked hard.
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  I was really smart.
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  I, you know, I was really good at the business, but I drove them crazy because they give me an
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  assignment, and they just want me to do it the Coke way or do it the P and G way.
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  And I'd say, hey.
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  Have we ever thought about this, or should we try this?
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  They're like, no, Paige.
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  We already know how to do it.
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  Just follow the rules.
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  So when I worked for startups and when I when I started my own firm, I definitely think I've
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  got more of an entrepreneurial DNA because I love trying new things.
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  I love trying to see if there's a better way, a more scrappy way.
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  You know, my budgets, have never been as big as they were in that first chapter of my career.
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  So I got really good at guerrilla marketing and helping my clients who don't have as much money
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  find ways to break through the clutter and stand out.
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  I wonder we get along so well, Paige.
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  But, you're a creative.
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  Right?
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  You're you and that's why you you probably were attracted to marketing in the first place.
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  It's because you wanted to do creative things.
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  And sometimes being put into a box and being told to stay there just doesn't work for
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  someone who's creative.
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  I know that's why I struggle in those types of situations.
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  And the thing about being creative is that not everything is going to work.
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  Right?
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  A lot of these ideas aren't going to work.
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  And I think a lot of people get they think of creative and they just think of it in the arts.
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  Right?
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  That you're you can draw or you can, you know, graphic design or you can play music.
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  But, really, creativity is a thought process.
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  It it is a way of looking at things differently and presenting new ideas, having new ideas
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  instead of, like, go that's like, no.
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  We're going to we've been doing this for a century.
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  I think we got it.
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  We're not, you know, we're not trying to reinvent the wheel here.
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  And how do you fault a brand?
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  Like, know, when they spend the kind of money they do, mistakes in their marketing cost them
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  a lot more than someone with, you know, a a couple thousand dollars of of budget that, you
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  know, it it maybe doesn't sink the company in that.
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  And maybe they haven't seen big wins ever, so you're willing to kinda throw some darts at the
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  wall and to see what sticks.
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  And I think the great thing that I really love about marketing is you use both sides of your
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  brain, the analytical side and the creative side.
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  I feel like on Wall Street, I was much more focused on the analytics.
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  And although I was always good with numbers and math, I just didn't enjoy it as much.
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  And we all see what happens when Wall Street people get a little too creative with the
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  numbers that can be a little dangerous.
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  So I love the fact that in marketing, you know, there's art and there's science.
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  So you can use the data and use the analytics as support points and, you know, helping you,
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  you know, connect the dots in a way that is very, compelling.
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  But you can also test lots of different story angles and creative executions and see which
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  ones connect on an emotional level and really move the needle.
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  So I think I'm just much better suited for the marketing world because I get to do a little of
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  everything, and that makes it really fun.
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  Yeah.
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  Well and I'm more, de facto marketing director of our company because we are a small company
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  that, it's sometimes hard for me.
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  It's hard to see the forest for the trees.
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  Right?
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  It's it can be very difficult for founders to be able to effectively market themselves and
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  their brand.
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  And I you know, for someone who's done guerrilla marketing a lot and who, you know,
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  isn't, like, terrible at it, but I know that I'm not as good as I could be.
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  So what is your advice to, you know, people like me who tend to just do everything
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  themselves because we don't really have any budget to invest into that?
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  But what's some advice that you can give to people, you know, in when they're looking for
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  someone to work with as a, you know, marketing agency?
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  So, you know, again, I started with, big brands, established brands that had budgets to
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  begin with.
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  And I think it's really important to start with market research.
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  When you work for a P and G or a Coke, market research tends to be very expensive and take a
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  long time.
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  These are mass marketed brands.
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  They have millions of of customers.
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  And when they do research, they want it to be statistically significant.
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  The companies I work with now and the startups I worked with before, you know, they don't have
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  millions of people buying their products or services.
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  So, you know, you can you can find information in a much more scrappy way.
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  You know, you can use Zoomerang and SurveyMonkey.
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  You can talk to dozens or hundreds of people.
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  You don't need to talk to millions of people.
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  But it is really important that you get objective data on what's working and why it's
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  working.
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  I think where where people get into the danger zone, you know, I'll have people come to me and
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  say, you know, everyone loves my product or service.
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  I don't understand why we're not selling more.
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  Everyone I talk to gives
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  you because you're lying to yourself, first of all.
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  Not everybody loves your product.
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  Most people probably don't even know who you are.
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  Bingo.
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  And I think, you know, if if you're talking to your sister, your mother, your neighbor, your
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  friend, that's not actually market research.
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  Those are those are people that don't wanna hurt your feelings and don't wanna tell you the
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  baby's ugly.
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  So you're not actually getting objective research.
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  You're getting you know, you're you're asking them what do you love about my product, or can
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  you tell me three things about my service that, you know, you think are fantastic?
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  You're leading the witness.
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  So it's in in marketing, we say garbage in, garbage out.
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  So that's not market research.
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  If you're talking to real customers or real gatekeepers, real, you know, secondary,
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  tertiary audiences, people who influence the ultimate decision maker.
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  If you're asking them the question in a very objective way and you're getting real feedback,
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  and it might not be positive, it probably isn't all positive, and you're listening and you're
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  looking at the results and the data, that's gotta be kinda your first foundational step
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  because you really wanna make sure you're talking to the right people, asking the right
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  questions, and getting real feedback.
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  If you do that well, then you wanna test and learn.
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  You know, you know, you you can have different versions of the email with different subject
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  lines or different versions of the logo or the website and ask for feedback.
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  Do you like a or b?
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  You can watch people.
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  Which one do they click on more?
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  If you try two different versions of an ad or two different price points, which one is
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  getting the most traction?
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  Again, that's database, but you do wanna connect with your audience on an emotional
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  level.
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  How how are you tugging at their heartstrings?
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  Because ultimately, pay people make decisions based on kind of their gut and their kinda
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  likes, but they wanna justify it with the data.
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  And, you know, that's just human nature.
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  So you have to figure out what's real and, you know, follow those breadcrumbs.
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  And I also think the the thing that's real today is if you don't exist online, you're
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  invisible.
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  And if you're invisible, that's a terrible marketing strategy.
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  So you really need to make sure that if people are looking for you, if they look for you in
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  Google, if they're looking for you on social media, you need to stand out.
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  You need to break through the clutter and the noise.
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  Being invisible is a really bad marketing strategy.
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  So you wanna make sure all the things that pop up about you are consistent, tell a tell a
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  story that builds trust and builds a relationship with your audience.
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  If you're one kind of brand on Facebook and you're very different on LinkedIn or Instagram,
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  it's confusing.
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  And and your customer, your audience is gonna not trust you because they don't know which
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  version of you is gonna show up.
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  So make sure you're telling a consistent story on all different platforms, and you're building
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  that ongoing conversation and relationship with the audience and the gatekeepers that actually
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  buy what you're selling.
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  Yeah.
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  A consistent brand narrative, being where people are looking.
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  Now you don't necessarily need to be on every single social media platform.
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  You definitely need to be on the, you know, big three, you know, either Facebook, Instagram.
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  And I think for anyone that's in business, LinkedIn is just massive.
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  It it has changed my life.
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  I wasn't there until maybe six months ago or maybe I was, but I wasn't engaging there.
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  And it's been such a game changer for me to connect b to b now, which I wasn't necessarily
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  doing before.
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  I was connecting with our artists, and that was very easy because I could network with them on
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  Facebook or or in Instagram and find them very easily there.
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  But to punch up, right, and to get into that next, you know, realm of the music industry,
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  those people were not on the the places where I was looking and hanging out.
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  So but LinkedIn has been an absolute game changer.
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  We've had so many industry professionals now that we're able to bring into our world that
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  are actually helping us to provide more value to our our listeners, which is our community
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  mostly of artists.
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  Right?
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  So kind of that's been our market research because we were brand new and in a relatively
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  new media space being the podcasting world, and we came in with such a different approach to
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  it.
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  We knew it was edutainment, pretty early on and that it was about promoting the artist and to
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  getting that out there.
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  But we're also working with artists that nobody else was really researching about or looking
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  for.
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  You know, we were sinking our hooks into as many coattails as possible waiting hoping one
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  of these people are the next jelly roll or or any of the, you know, massive artists, and then
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  you get to be kind of the first ones in the door for that.
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  But now it's because we've interviewed over 500 artists, a lot of them have ended up following
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  the show and being part of our community that it kind of turned on its head this you know, in
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  in the last few months where it was like, okay.
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  We have our community.
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  We didn't maybe bring in, like, the fans of music like we thought we would or or, you know,
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  I I I had assumed early on, Paige, that these artists were gonna share the show and then
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  their fans were gonna follow from that interview and stuff.
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  And that didn't really materialize like that.
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  But what it did was that other bands and artists became part of the community.
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  So I was able to do my market research, look at who is, you know, in our community and go,
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  okay.
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  How do we serve them?
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  And now that's become okay.
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  Let's start getting more industry professionals in here.
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  Let's start serving this artist community.
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  And if fans of that tend to come in and are taking a piece of this and are, you know,
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  seeing our content and following from there, so be it.
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  But let's serve the people that are here now.
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  There's, you know, several thousand people between our different Facebook groups, our
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  email list, and, you know, our subscribers on YouTube that we can be serving now and we can
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  be providing value to.
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  So it's been a massive change in what even here at the scene projects have been doing.
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  Absolutely.
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  And, you know, you mentioned LinkedIn.
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  Some people think of LinkedIn as, like, for resumes or to build your Rolodex.
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  And the truth is in a digital world that we live in today, LinkedIn is a foundational
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  platform to build trusted relationships.
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  And so if you and I are connected on LinkedIn, we can look and see how many people we know in
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  common, and that just makes me feel more comfortable.
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  Like, oh, trust.
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  It builds trust.
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  Exactly.
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  And that's, you know, in this day and age with artificial intelligence and all the robots
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  taking over, your humanity and the human element, those those trusted connections mean
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  more today than they ever have before.
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  So, you know, that's where you can stand out versus the the artificial intelligence.
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  And LinkedIn is also an amazing platform for thought leadership.
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  You know, you can really stand out.
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  Again, a lot of the AI tools, it's like the lowest common denominator.
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  And what you want is you wanna own real estate in your your end user, your customer's brain so
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  that when they have a problem that your product or service can help them solve, you want them
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  to think of you first.
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  And so LinkedIn is absolutely critical, and especially if you're looking for sponsors or,
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  again, in that b to b community.
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  You know, you don't have mill you don't need millions of people, but you want the the people
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  that you are reaching to have deep roots with you.
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  And so LinkedIn is great for that.
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  That that's my preferred platform as well.
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  Yeah.
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  Absolute game changer for me in our business careers now moving forward.
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  And, I feel like the I didn't feel comfortable there as an artist, but as the podcast has
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  advanced, you know, winning content creator of the year award, treating myself and calling
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  myself executive producer, right, where I put myself in more of that, you know, authoritative
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  and, you know, thought leader role.
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  And I think that we have some interesting ideas because I am a creative still around it.
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  I'm not trying to come in and copycat what's already been done before.
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  I I'm taking advice from other people, but I'm applying it with my own personal experience
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  every single day.
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  And I think that's what's helping us to stand out in this world and and especially in the
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  business world because a lot of people that have been around in the music industry, were in
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  an industry that's completely turned upside down right now.
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  So they're struggling just as much as the next guy or gal to find their footing in this.
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  And we're kinda coming in and going, well, we're building our own thing.
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  This is what we're doing.
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  It seems to be successful.
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  And I think people are now starting to gravitate to that.
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  And having a give of a very successful podcast is such a great avenue.
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  So kind of our first, you know, my recommendations to anyone that I'm mentoring in
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  this space now is you gotta be on LinkedIn.
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  You should be doing podcast interviews and use that as a give to punch up a little bit into
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  this realm.
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  All of these, you know, industry execs, matter what world you're in, would love to come and
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  talk about themselves and their book and their things.
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  So give them the platform to do that on.
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  A 100%.
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  You are absolutely right.
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  Paige, where can people find you to work with you?
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  I don't wanna keep you too long today, and, you know, we talk fairly regularly now so we could
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  always get back on whenever we have more to chat about.
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  But, go ahead and plug everything for you, you know, of yours before I let you go.
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  So the website is mavens and moguls dot com.
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  It's mavensandmoguls.com.
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  And LinkedIn, my platform of choice.
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  You can see my last name is hyphenated, but on LinkedIn, it's all smushed together.
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  And as one of my clients always says, between my hyphenated last name name and the ampersand
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  in mavens and moguls, there are just too many words for her to remember.
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  So when she's looking for me, she goes into Google and types in page and mavens because
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  that's all she can remember.
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  And I pop right up because search engine optimization actually works.
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  Well, that's exactly how it's done.
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  Paige, thank you so much for being on the show.
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  Thank you for the introductions to, the companies that have absolutely changed, you
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  know, our life and, you know, getting introduced to source of sources has been a game
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  changer for us and allowed us to have some really interesting conversations here on the
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  show as well.
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  So I appreciate you being part of our network, and I appreciate you being part of the scene.
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  Well, thank you for having me.
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  It's been a great great chat.
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  Thanks a ton.
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  Bye bye now.
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  Bye.