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What's Going On With OnlyFans? · Stuff Mom Never Told You

0:05
Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
0:07
Speaker 1: I've never told you, Protection of High Radio. Today, we
0:19
Speaker 1: are thrilled to be joined by our friend and colleague
0:23
Speaker 1: Bridget Todd. Bridget, it's so it's so exciting to be
0:26
Speaker 1: with you. I feel like it's been a minute. It's
0:29
Speaker 1: been a minute. Yeah, I'm so excited to be back.
0:31
Speaker 1: Are my favorite lady? Yes? Same? And when on record,
0:39
Speaker 1: someone just isolate that clip. We were just talking about
0:43
Speaker 1: some trials and some tribulations because you've recently had an
0:47
Speaker 1: injury and are recording from a new new part of
0:51
Speaker 1: your house. Yes, I am like, Well, I usually record
0:54
Speaker 1: from my kitchen, but I'm laid up awkwardly on my
0:57
Speaker 1: couch because I have a broken ankle and I'm in
1:00
Speaker 1: a cast, and I can only be comfortable if my
1:02
Speaker 1: ankle is like elevated in a very awkward way. Well,
1:08
Speaker 1: it doesn't look super awkward. I'll see that. It looks
1:11
Speaker 1: kind of pretty comfortable, honestly. Okay, good, Yeah, I don't
1:14
Speaker 1: usually get to record podcasts while I'm lounging on account.
1:17
Speaker 1: I feel like it kind of looks like do you
1:19
Speaker 1: know those like celebrity podcasts where it's usually they're they've
1:22
Speaker 1: got their their video there on videos, so it's like
1:25
Speaker 1: they've got the headphones and the microphone, but they're like
1:27
Speaker 1: on a beautiful couch with a cool background. I feel
1:29
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, that's a great way to feel. Yeah,
1:34
Speaker 1: that's a good place to be. One. You don't look
1:36
Speaker 1: like you're lounging. You look at your very much in
1:38
Speaker 1: attention and professional and from what I can see, so
1:41
Speaker 1: that's the person who probably has one of the worst
1:44
Speaker 1: postures ever. So you know, kudos to that with a
1:47
Speaker 1: book an ankle, because I always feel like like I
1:49
Speaker 1: look like my body is broken and I just gave up.
1:51
Speaker 1: So good job. You know, I'll take it. I'll take it. Also,
1:58
Speaker 1: you were on TV recently. Oh I know, I get
2:04
Speaker 1: to say I know a celebrity. Oh please. What's funny
2:07
Speaker 1: is that I was at MSNBC uh two weeks ago,
2:10
Speaker 1: a week ago, and you know that account room raiders
2:13
Speaker 1: where they rate people's like their their backgrounds when they
2:17
Speaker 1: do like virtual news hits or whatever. I got my
2:20
Speaker 1: room rated, and so that's that very couch. I feel
2:23
Speaker 1: like my drab, very old ikea couch is now a
2:27
Speaker 1: celebrity and now the couch thinks it's, you know, a
2:31
Speaker 1: big deal it is. That's awesome, the good for the couch,
2:39
Speaker 1: you know what, you know what better day? Yes, I
2:44
Speaker 1: mean this one is so old. It's like, oh no,
2:46
Speaker 1: butts please, I'm famous now excuse me. Certain level of
2:53
Speaker 1: person to know the couch is outshining me, like I
3:00
Speaker 1: think it personally, it feels right though, so does ur. Well,
3:09
Speaker 1: now that we've learned the couches surpasses, we're both really
3:13
Speaker 1: excited for the topic he brought today, Bridget because we're
3:17
Speaker 1: talking about what's been going on with only fans and
3:20
Speaker 1: I was just completely incorrect about what only fans is
3:25
Speaker 1: and I was only seeing like bits of like on
3:27
Speaker 1: Twitter it was trending, and then I saw like a
3:30
Speaker 1: bunch of like late night talk show host kind of
3:33
Speaker 1: made jokes about it. I think I had been mixing
3:36
Speaker 1: up Cameo with only fans this entire time, or at
3:39
Speaker 1: least I thought they were very similar. I thought it
3:42
Speaker 1: was like a place where you went and like celebrities
3:45
Speaker 1: were like, Hey, that's that's what I thought. I mean,
3:49
Speaker 1: that's not You're not totally far off, right. So cameo
3:53
Speaker 1: is a site where you could pay to have celebrities
3:55
Speaker 1: make a you know, a birthday message, a birthday shout out.
3:58
Speaker 1: I've used it twice in my life. Um, I got
4:01
Speaker 1: a cameo of Ramona Singer from Real Housewives of New
4:04
Speaker 1: York saying happy birthday to my friends. So it's similar
4:07
Speaker 1: only fans. It's kind of similar in that it's a
4:10
Speaker 1: it's a content subscription service where creators can earn money
4:14
Speaker 1: from their audience who subscribe to their content like a
4:16
Speaker 1: k a. The fans and the only fans, And so
4:18
Speaker 1: even though it is certainly widely known as a platform
4:23
Speaker 1: for like adult content creators and sex workers, regular celebrities
4:26
Speaker 1: are there too now and so, for instance, like back
4:29
Speaker 1: to Housewives, I also subscribe to Real Housewives of New
4:33
Speaker 1: York stars Sonia Morgan on only fans, and so her
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Speaker 1: content on only fans, it's not sexually explicit. It's more
4:39
Speaker 1: just like behind the scenes and like you know, exclusive
4:42
Speaker 1: content for fans. Um, I'm like, I'm I feel like
4:46
Speaker 1: a little bit of a sucker that I pay money
4:48
Speaker 1: for this. So like see videos of her, you know,
4:51
Speaker 1: picking out outfits or whatever. But cameo and only fans
4:54
Speaker 1: are not totally dissimilar, like you're not, you know, far off,
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Speaker 1: They're pretty similar in some In some regards, I think
5:00
Speaker 1: I missed a cameo boat, so I didn't know much
5:02
Speaker 1: about cameo until you guys are explaining it. So I
5:05
Speaker 1: knew more about Only Fans because I do remember there
5:07
Speaker 1: used to be an account on Only Fans that was
5:09
Speaker 1: like a wholesome plant account. There was this woman who
5:13
Speaker 1: had amazing plants and are like so she was doing
5:16
Speaker 1: like the whole thing where she would just show off
5:18
Speaker 1: for playoffs and talk about them on Only Fans and
5:21
Speaker 1: that's what people paying for it. I was like, that
5:23
Speaker 1: is so wholesome and kind. I'd never Okay, I like this.
5:28
Speaker 1: I like that to you. And I think that really
5:30
Speaker 1: does underscore why what people come to Only Fans for,
5:35
Speaker 1: whether or not it's like adult content or explicit content,
5:38
Speaker 1: or just sort of content that that audiences can really
5:42
Speaker 1: see a value in and we'll pay for that value.
5:44
Speaker 1: It really is like giving the giving your audience what
5:47
Speaker 1: they want. So whether it's sexual content or wholesome plant content,
5:51
Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons I think people have really
5:53
Speaker 1: resonated with it because it is about giving people exactly
5:57
Speaker 1: what they want right, and just the backtrack what exactly
6:01
Speaker 1: is only Fans so that those like Annie who are
6:04
Speaker 1: confused and mixing up what this is, can you kind
6:07
Speaker 1: of tell everyone what it is and how it originated. Absolutely,
6:11
Speaker 1: So it's a content subscription service where content creators earned
6:14
Speaker 1: money from their audience who subscribe. So again like the
6:16
Speaker 1: a k A. The like fans and only fans and
6:19
Speaker 1: only Fans as a platform takes I think cut of
6:22
Speaker 1: that money and it can really be lucrative for some creators.
6:26
Speaker 1: Only Fans says that it has a hundred and thirty
6:28
Speaker 1: million users and two million creators who have collectively earned
6:31
Speaker 1: about five billion dollars. So this is big money, like
6:34
Speaker 1: it's it's it's not a niche small thing. We're talking,
6:37
Speaker 1: you know, billions with a B. And as I said,
6:40
Speaker 1: I mean, there was a time where it was mostly
6:43
Speaker 1: known for adult content and sex worker content, and it
6:47
Speaker 1: kind of expanded to be kind of non adult or
6:50
Speaker 1: non sexual explicit celebrities kind of connecting with their fans.
6:54
Speaker 1: You might remember a while a while back Bella Thorne
6:57
Speaker 1: was on Only Fans that it caused a big controversy
7:00
Speaker 1: because people thought that Bella Thorne as a celebrity was
7:03
Speaker 1: going to shift the marketplace and that they were no
7:06
Speaker 1: longer going to be centering sex workers and folks who
7:09
Speaker 1: make adult content, which I think was like a very
7:11
Speaker 1: look looking into what's happening now with o Lengthans. I
7:13
Speaker 1: think that was like a very fair concern, and it
7:17
Speaker 1: really does underscore that sex workers and folks who deal
7:20
Speaker 1: in adult content, they are often the most savvy when
7:24
Speaker 1: it comes to tech, tech platforms and what kind of
7:28
Speaker 1: choices those platforms might make down the line, like nobody
7:32
Speaker 1: understands technology and staying you know, ahead of technology, like
7:36
Speaker 1: sex workers or folks involved in adult content, because they
7:40
Speaker 1: really have to be things shift so quickly in terms
7:42
Speaker 1: of policy and what's allowed and what's not allowed. You know.
7:45
Speaker 1: Sometimes they refer to sex workers as sort of the
7:48
Speaker 1: tech canary in the coal mine who says like, hey,
7:51
Speaker 1: this thing is going to happen, and they nine times
7:53
Speaker 1: out of ten are correct. And yeah, I remember with
7:56
Speaker 1: the Bella Thorne thing, it caused another controversy because the
8:00
Speaker 1: way she advertised, or that it insinuated that there was
8:02
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of more like nudity and
8:06
Speaker 1: or whatever she was promising seemed really bigger and more
8:09
Speaker 1: grand than what was actually given, which cost the site
8:13
Speaker 1: to crash essentially because so much request was coming for
8:16
Speaker 1: the refunds that they were having to give back money
8:19
Speaker 1: that they didn't have, to the point that it really
8:22
Speaker 1: really affected the rest of the people who had only
8:25
Speaker 1: fans account that was making a lot of making some
8:29
Speaker 1: money and it was kind of disrupting their cash flow,
8:32
Speaker 1: right or their income. That's exactly right. And so you know,
8:36
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of folks who are involved
8:37
Speaker 1: in sex work rightly have concerns that you know, when
8:41
Speaker 1: someone like a Bella Thorne comes on and completely disrupts
8:44
Speaker 1: the model that that they've been working with, that they
8:48
Speaker 1: will be the ones who are harmed or impacted. And
8:50
Speaker 1: we know sex workers are already marginalized, they're not necessarily
8:54
Speaker 1: folks who hold a lot of power or when it
8:56
Speaker 1: comes to even this conversations about the technology that they
8:59
Speaker 1: use and of built kind of like made popular or
9:01
Speaker 1: made relevant. And so you know, again we see that
9:05
Speaker 1: Bella Thorne example that you just explained, like that's a
9:08
Speaker 1: great example of what we're talking about. What happens when
9:11
Speaker 1: something that sex workers built up and popularized is a
9:17
Speaker 1: decision is made that completely further marginalizes them and de
9:21
Speaker 1: centers them from something that they have already been sort
9:24
Speaker 1: of like building up. Yeah, so why don't we talk
9:29
Speaker 1: about this, this decision that only Fans made, this news
9:33
Speaker 1: that they made that, Yeah, it is very impactful, um,
9:37
Speaker 1: towards sex workers who have used the platform. So here's
9:40
Speaker 1: what's going on. So last Thursday, Only Fans that it
9:43
Speaker 1: would ban explicit content starting October one. They said, affective
9:47
Speaker 1: October one, Only Fans will prohibit the posting of any
9:50
Speaker 1: content containing sexually explicit conduct. In order to ensure the
9:53
Speaker 1: long term sustainability of the platform and to continue to
9:56
Speaker 1: host inclusive communities of creators and fans, we must evolve
9:59
Speaker 1: our content guidelines. They also said that creators could still
10:02
Speaker 1: continue to post content containing nudity as long as it
10:05
Speaker 1: was consistent with their acceptable Use policy, and people were
10:09
Speaker 1: like collectively, wtf right, because again, this has been a
10:14
Speaker 1: platform that sex workers and adult content have pretty much
10:18
Speaker 1: been the thing that only Fans was used for. So
10:21
Speaker 1: then Only Fans clarified. They said basically that this was
10:24
Speaker 1: not really their decision. It was payment processors like MasterCard
10:29
Speaker 1: that process the payments of these creators on the platform
10:31
Speaker 1: that we're making this decisions. So they said these changes
10:34
Speaker 1: are to comply with the request of our banking partners
10:36
Speaker 1: and pay out providers, and again there was this massive,
10:40
Speaker 1: massive outcry from folks who were rightly really upset because,
10:44
Speaker 1: you know, although content and sex worker content like that
10:48
Speaker 1: is that was like the bread and butter of this platform.
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Speaker 1: So they have since changed course, tweeting we have secured
10:54
Speaker 1: assurances necessary to support our diverse creator community and have
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Speaker 1: suspended our planned October first policy change. Only Fans stands
11:01
Speaker 1: for inclusion and will continue to be a home for
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Speaker 1: all creators. And so it was kind of like a
11:06
Speaker 1: grand opening, grand closing kind of situation where they made
11:09
Speaker 1: this announcement and then they were like, oh, just kidding,
11:12
Speaker 1: but don't get too excited, because this is definitely not
11:15
Speaker 1: the end of the story, and I definitely want to
11:16
Speaker 1: talk more about why sex workers are still very wary
11:20
Speaker 1: about the platform, and like, what's going on with that
11:22
Speaker 1: policy coming at this from someone who is you know, like,
11:38
Speaker 1: I think I vaguely know what this is. I didn't
11:42
Speaker 1: know it was used mostly for sexual content, but now
11:44
Speaker 1: I'm wondering. I think I have seen some horror movies
11:46
Speaker 1: that have only fans in it, because of course I have,
11:49
Speaker 1: but I remember that clarification of like, nudity is allowed,
11:54
Speaker 1: but only if it's like not sexual, and I was
11:57
Speaker 1: already like that was raising my flag of like, I
12:00
Speaker 1: can tell who this is going to feel, like we've
12:02
Speaker 1: seen that time and time again of who is the
12:04
Speaker 1: judge of what that means. But that being said, that
12:09
Speaker 1: was one of the problems that people had with this
12:12
Speaker 1: right is that it was pretty confusing and not really
12:16
Speaker 1: clear what they were what these rules would have meant exactly,
12:20
Speaker 1: So their policy wasn't very clear. They said that they
12:23
Speaker 1: were going to be banning sexual explicit conduct, but you know,
12:26
Speaker 1: that's pretty vague. They said that nudity is allowed, but
12:29
Speaker 1: sexually explicit content isn't to like, what exactly does that mean?
12:33
Speaker 1: And it basically really puts the burden on contact creators
12:36
Speaker 1: to sort out what would or would not get them
12:39
Speaker 1: potentially kicked off of this platform, for whom a lot
12:42
Speaker 1: of sex workers this is a big part of their
12:44
Speaker 1: financial livelihood and so leaving it to be that vague
12:48
Speaker 1: where it's just like, well, you know, we're not going
12:50
Speaker 1: to give you more feedback about what is and is
12:52
Speaker 1: not allowed. But if you break the rule that we decide,
12:56
Speaker 1: you could lose lose out on like money, you know,
12:59
Speaker 1: and so that pretty messed up. Yeah, yeah, that would
13:03
Speaker 1: just be so confusing. And also you'd be like, who
13:05
Speaker 1: do I really ask about this? How far do I
13:10
Speaker 1: want to push it? And then something else, as you
13:12
Speaker 1: were talking about, when it comes to technology and policy, um,
13:17
Speaker 1: sex workers have had to really adapt and one thing
13:21
Speaker 1: also at play right now is the pandemic. When it
13:23
Speaker 1: comes to adapting to new environments. Oh absolutely, you know,
13:29
Speaker 1: sex work is work, and so just like any other worker,
13:32
Speaker 1: during the pandemic, folks have had to make changes with
13:34
Speaker 1: how they can work safely. And so only bands banning
13:37
Speaker 1: adult content during a pandemic, which is removed another avenue
13:41
Speaker 1: for sex workers to safely make money at a time,
13:43
Speaker 1: and we know those avenues have already been disrupted due
13:46
Speaker 1: to the pandemic. So it's just at a time when
13:49
Speaker 1: they're already a lack of safe ways to do this work.
13:53
Speaker 1: It's just taking away one more at a time when
13:56
Speaker 1: folks are already really you know, suffering, right, So okay,
14:02
Speaker 1: if only fans is known as being a space for
14:06
Speaker 1: sex work in this sexual content, and as you said,
14:10
Speaker 1: like they kind of back touched from like, well it
14:12
Speaker 1: was the credit cards they were pushing us. I mean,
14:15
Speaker 1: I mean, I get curious why they made this decision.
14:20
Speaker 1: Oh yes, okay, So this is where things get a
14:22
Speaker 1: little bit complicated. This, I mean, this whole topic is complex,
14:25
Speaker 1: and I want to name that right up the bat.
14:28
Speaker 1: I kind of went into researching this topic thinking it
14:31
Speaker 1: was one thing, and then realizing I was incorrect and
14:34
Speaker 1: it was quite another. So when I first heard about this,
14:36
Speaker 1: I thought, oh, this has got to be the same
14:38
Speaker 1: old story where a marginalized community help take a platform popular,
14:42
Speaker 1: and then that platform just abandons that group when they
14:45
Speaker 1: want to kind of go mainstream. We've seen that before
14:48
Speaker 1: with Clubhouse, with Patreon, like that is a common thing.
14:51
Speaker 1: And I really held that opinion until I did this research,
14:55
Speaker 1: and the research really showed me that. You know, I'm
14:58
Speaker 1: not gonna say there isn't some aspects of that happening here,
15:01
Speaker 1: but the reality is these payment processors truly did cave
15:05
Speaker 1: to coordinated pressure from religious groups, and so there might
15:09
Speaker 1: be some aspect of you know, only fans wanting to
15:14
Speaker 1: go more mainstream at play. The real reality is that
15:18
Speaker 1: payment processors cave to pressure from religious groups. And so
15:21
Speaker 1: that was something that was new for me that I
15:24
Speaker 1: learned in researching this topic. I was like, Oh, I
15:26
Speaker 1: didn't realize that there was this behind the scenes, coordinated
15:29
Speaker 1: effort to pressure these payment processors into cutting ties with
15:32
Speaker 1: the pornography industry. Yeah. That's interesting because I feel like
15:36
Speaker 1: this isn't the first time when you bought a topic
15:39
Speaker 1: that I wouldn't have guessed would have this sort of
15:42
Speaker 1: angle or intersection, And then when when I learned it,
15:45
Speaker 1: I'm not surprised, but it's kind of like, Wow, how
15:48
Speaker 1: much power these groups have that and I'm not even
15:52
Speaker 1: hearing about it. You know that they're pressuring only fans.
15:57
Speaker 1: This kind of goes into the Q and on slash
16:00
Speaker 1: h Yoga mom type of conversation about trafficking and trying
16:04
Speaker 1: to decide what that is and who is the arbitrator
16:06
Speaker 1: of it and who is to defend it, And it's
16:08
Speaker 1: definitely along those lines that I've seen it time and
16:10
Speaker 1: time again. When we you know, we did that whole
16:12
Speaker 1: episode about sex trafficking and social media and TikTok and
16:16
Speaker 1: all of that, and when we talked about this, this
16:18
Speaker 1: is one more that gets into that bigger scope of
16:21
Speaker 1: protect our children, protect our girls types of mentality. And
16:25
Speaker 1: I've definitely heard of these groups going after what are
16:28
Speaker 1: the bigger things, including platforms, although we do see it
16:31
Speaker 1: on other platforms, but for some reason we know why
16:34
Speaker 1: only fans is the current target and that's the one
16:37
Speaker 1: that's making the big splash obviously. Oh absolutely, And and
16:41
Speaker 1: really you bring up such a good point, which is
16:43
Speaker 1: that we all know that trafficking is a horrible, horrendous crime, period,
16:48
Speaker 1: end of sentence. However, when these groups conflate things that
16:54
Speaker 1: are not trafficking, which is like a very specific thing
16:56
Speaker 1: with trafficking, So when they conflate consensual sex were or
17:00
Speaker 1: consensual pornography featuring adults, you know, when they conflate those
17:05
Speaker 1: things with sex work, it's not just you know, a
17:08
Speaker 1: problematic thing, like, yes, it is problematic, but it's more
17:11
Speaker 1: than that. It can be used to really fuel public
17:14
Speaker 1: policy and political heft. And so this is not just
17:17
Speaker 1: a movement happening online. It is being used to fuel
17:22
Speaker 1: specific legislation and specific policy. And so you know when
17:26
Speaker 1: someone gets on TikTok and says I think I was
17:28
Speaker 1: almost traffic because I found a piece of cheese on
17:31
Speaker 1: my car or whatever. You know, that may seem like
17:35
Speaker 1: not that big of a deal, but when you follow
17:38
Speaker 1: that threat and say, and that kind of scaremongering about
17:42
Speaker 1: trafficking and misinformation about trafficking is going to be used
17:45
Speaker 1: to fuel actual legislation that criminalizes already marginalized communities, that's
17:49
Speaker 1: when things get really concerning to me. And so like,
17:53
Speaker 1: this is not just an internet problem. This is the
17:55
Speaker 1: thing that's really resulting in policy being made in real life.
17:59
Speaker 1: And and are to really focus on two groups who
18:01
Speaker 1: are doing this for this episode, Exodus Cry and the
18:04
Speaker 1: National Center on Sexual Exploitation formally called Morality in Media UM,
18:09
Speaker 1: which is sort of an interesting a little rebrand there,
18:12
Speaker 1: I'm sure, I'm sure you can pick up why they've
18:14
Speaker 1: changed their name. Basically, these groups have been waging years
18:18
Speaker 1: long campaigns against sites like only Fans and their ultimate
18:21
Speaker 1: goal is to abolish the sex work industry entirely. And
18:26
Speaker 1: you know, as you said, I mean, they do a
18:27
Speaker 1: really great job of making themselves seem like their only
18:30
Speaker 1: goal is to eradicate sex trafficking, which if that was
18:33
Speaker 1: the case, that would be very admirable. You know, even
18:35
Speaker 1: the name the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. You can
18:38
Speaker 1: understand why they change their name from Morality and Media
18:42
Speaker 1: to the National Center on Sexual Exploitation because that's a
18:45
Speaker 1: that seems like a much more admirable goal than like,
18:49
Speaker 1: we don't like pornography being you know, like so I
18:52
Speaker 1: can see why they rebranded. But to be clear, these
18:55
Speaker 1: are morality groups who have a history of trying to
18:58
Speaker 1: ban pornography and things that they do anti moral. Right,
19:01
Speaker 1: You're so right on how they whoever did this change,
19:06
Speaker 1: kudos like they did a genius job in rebranding themselves.
19:10
Speaker 1: Because morality is subjective. No one's gonna sit here and
19:14
Speaker 1: say sexual exploitation is a subjective. It's fine, it's fine
19:17
Speaker 1: only if it's fine this way. No one's gonna argue
19:20
Speaker 1: with that, and then being so official like their actual
19:23
Speaker 1: government entity. Come on, exactly. So a little bit of
19:28
Speaker 1: history about these groups. So in the nineties, the National
19:31
Speaker 1: Center on Sexual Exploitation attached the National Endowment of the
19:35
Speaker 1: Arts for funding what it deemed obscene and profane are
19:38
Speaker 1: in The group called for a whitecott of all Time
19:41
Speaker 1: Warner products because of the publication of Madonna's Sex Book.
19:45
Speaker 1: If you're old like me, maybe you know, maybe you
19:48
Speaker 1: remember this book. I actually own it because I am
19:50
Speaker 1: a Madonna's superfan, and I mean it's basically like it
19:53
Speaker 1: would be so tame today. It's like softcore pornography featuring Madonna.
19:58
Speaker 1: You know, it's it's really you know, not not that wild. Um.
20:03
Speaker 1: This group also advocated that safe sex curriculums were indecent
20:08
Speaker 1: and then Exodus Cry is an offshoot of the International
20:10
Speaker 1: House of Prayer, which, fun fact, the International House of
20:13
Speaker 1: Pancakes once a boiled a suit against them for having
20:16
Speaker 1: the same acronym I have. They eventually removed that suit,
20:21
Speaker 1: but this group at one point supported the Uganda law
20:25
Speaker 1: that made gay sex a crime punishable by death. And
20:28
Speaker 1: so you can really see these groups are not just
20:31
Speaker 1: interested in cracking down on sex trafficking. You know, this
20:34
Speaker 1: is clearly that that's not these groups only motivation. Can
20:37
Speaker 1: I put a caveat here, say I actually know people
20:39
Speaker 1: who were people a part of the eye of Crew,
20:42
Speaker 1: the Pancakes or the Prayer. Not I would be the Pancakes,
20:45
Speaker 1: they who were part of the Prayer because you know
20:53
Speaker 1: people and the International House of pancakes. Let me tell
20:58
Speaker 1: you do you do want to give a know? Uh
21:01
Speaker 1: and it was very coldish. We'll just leave it at that.
21:05
Speaker 1: I want to know so much more, have so many questions.
21:08
Speaker 1: We'll get together. Okay this maybe this is more like
21:11
Speaker 1: like after the pot. Yeah. So just based on that,
21:32
Speaker 1: like quick history, you can tell that the saying sex
21:36
Speaker 1: trafficking is not they're not being completely upfront and honest
21:41
Speaker 1: with what they are actually all about. Oh. Absolutely, And
21:44
Speaker 1: that's something that really, you know, bothers me because obviously
21:49
Speaker 1: sex trafficking is horrible and so bad. And the fact
21:54
Speaker 1: that they would use something that is so serious, such
21:58
Speaker 1: a serious serious like ill and crime something in fact,
22:02
Speaker 1: they would use that to bolster their like anti consensual
22:06
Speaker 1: adult porn agenda. I think it is so disrespectful to
22:10
Speaker 1: survivors of sex trafficking, right, Like, I really have a
22:14
Speaker 1: problem with that. And so here's actually a really good
22:16
Speaker 1: quote that I found from Wired magazine. For those like
22:19
Speaker 1: Exodus Cry who believe that sexual content shouldn't be available
22:22
Speaker 1: to broad audiences, there's an opportunity to leverage a real
22:26
Speaker 1: concern of underage and non consensual content being posted to
22:29
Speaker 1: porn sites to achieve broader, more drasticals such as just
22:33
Speaker 1: banning pornography and sex work outright. And you know, I
22:37
Speaker 1: think that survivors of sex work deserves so much better
22:42
Speaker 1: than having groups pretend to be advocating for them and
22:47
Speaker 1: then an actuality advocating for a completely different thing, right,
22:51
Speaker 1: like consensual porn involving adults is a completely different thing
22:56
Speaker 1: than sex trafficking. And the fact that these people would
22:59
Speaker 1: conflate them and cause confusion and you know, you know,
23:03
Speaker 1: create smoke screens in order to promote their anti pornographic agenda,
23:08
Speaker 1: I think it's so disrespectful, right, and it is dangerous,
23:12
Speaker 1: just outright dangerous, which is kind of their whole moo
23:15
Speaker 1: is they don't see a solution. They just want to
23:17
Speaker 1: get rid of something that they're uncomfortable with. And the
23:20
Speaker 1: same thing for abortion, when we talk about what they do,
23:23
Speaker 1: is they they again pro life and saying, you know,
23:26
Speaker 1: you're killing babies, and they're just doing a general arc
23:29
Speaker 1: to sound as most horrific as possible in order to
23:32
Speaker 1: deem a person the bad guy. And so they want
23:35
Speaker 1: to make this as evil as possible to push their agenda,
23:39
Speaker 1: which is a whole different conversation in itself, and if
23:42
Speaker 1: that means outright endangering people for the sake of their
23:45
Speaker 1: own morality or what they think is moral, they're okay
23:48
Speaker 1: with it, which is again that bigger conversation of no,
23:51
Speaker 1: these only fans. Yes, there's always going to be someone
23:54
Speaker 1: who takes advantage of the system, and there's always gonna
23:58
Speaker 1: be bad people who are doing bad things everywhere. We
24:01
Speaker 1: know this, this happens. But for those who are able
24:03
Speaker 1: to make their own decisions, have autonomy in doing what
24:07
Speaker 1: they feel is safe and still being able to make
24:09
Speaker 1: money the best way they can. Why not why are
24:12
Speaker 1: we like, why are we regulating? Why are we going
24:15
Speaker 1: to chat and take that off because you're uncomfortable with it? Why? Oh?
24:19
Speaker 1: I mean I think I I mean I completely agree,
24:21
Speaker 1: and I think I have uh an answer, which is
24:24
Speaker 1: that when folks are legislating things like this and trying
24:28
Speaker 1: to crack down on things like this, there is always
24:30
Speaker 1: some kind of a convenient scapegoat, right, And so when
24:33
Speaker 1: folks are concerned about the safety of their kids, you
24:36
Speaker 1: can say, like, oh, well, trans people in bathrooms, that
24:40
Speaker 1: is the real threat to my kids. So I'm going
24:42
Speaker 1: to crack down on that. Or trans youth being on
24:46
Speaker 1: sports teams. I'm gonna crack down on that, or sex workers,
24:48
Speaker 1: I'm gonna crack down on that, or immigrants. Right like,
24:51
Speaker 1: when people are feeling afraid or like they don't have
24:56
Speaker 1: control or they want to control the situation, that feels
24:59
Speaker 1: like they don't really know where to start. And again,
25:01
Speaker 1: sex trafficking is a something that we should be spending
25:06
Speaker 1: resources to curb and crack down on, right like, absolutely,
25:10
Speaker 1: But I think that in light of that feeling like
25:14
Speaker 1: a you know, a tough a tough mountain to climb,
25:18
Speaker 1: I think it's easier to be like, okay, well sex workers, Okay,
25:21
Speaker 1: well pornography, you know, even if those things are not
25:24
Speaker 1: actually the same. Even though even if sex like consensual
25:27
Speaker 1: legal sex work and adult pornography are completely distinct things.
25:32
Speaker 1: It just I think that for some people it feels
25:35
Speaker 1: good to have a scapegoat, to be like, oh, we'll
25:37
Speaker 1: crack down on this easy to pick on group of
25:39
Speaker 1: already marginalized people, and we'll feel like we're accomplishing this
25:43
Speaker 1: thing even if we're not right and you're right on
25:46
Speaker 1: without the picking on, because when we actually have victims,
25:49
Speaker 1: if they're not victimy enough, they dismiss it because that's
25:52
Speaker 1: for so long we've had that term child prostitute or
25:56
Speaker 1: underage prostitute, and still people use that term non acknowledging. No,
26:01
Speaker 1: this is a This is that trafficking victim that you've
26:03
Speaker 1: been looking for to protect. Why aren't you protecting them?
26:07
Speaker 1: Is that you're making them the perpetrator. What is happening? Yes,
26:11
Speaker 1: and in many states, you know, trafficking victims can be
26:16
Speaker 1: jailed for being victims of trafficking. Like, the way that
26:19
Speaker 1: we deal with survivors and victims in this country is appalling.
26:24
Speaker 1: And if we say that we are truly invested in
26:27
Speaker 1: cracking down on things like sex trafficking, we need to
26:29
Speaker 1: completely overhaul not only how we legally deal with these people,
26:34
Speaker 1: but also how we talk about them and think about them.
26:37
Speaker 1: Because there's no such thing as an underage prostitute. That
26:39
Speaker 1: you are involved in an exchange of sex for money
26:42
Speaker 1: and you are not of age, you are a trafficking victim.
26:45
Speaker 1: But that's just that's just the reality. And so you know,
26:48
Speaker 1: we we even our language does not allow for a
26:50
Speaker 1: more you know, nuanced empathetic understanding of the reality of
26:54
Speaker 1: what's happening. And you know what, as an investigator, as
26:58
Speaker 1: a for the longest and I've worked with the Department
27:01
Speaker 1: Juvenal Justice and I've worked with trafficking victims. A majority
27:05
Speaker 1: of the things that we found, again, this is before
27:07
Speaker 1: only Fans existed, So I won't I won't say this,
27:10
Speaker 1: but I know I got a chunk of information and
27:13
Speaker 1: a chunk of things that would go back and forth,
27:14
Speaker 1: and we would have stacks of papers and print dolls
27:16
Speaker 1: from things like Facebook and not necessarily not even like
27:20
Speaker 1: on Craislist or all these other sites that existed, but
27:23
Speaker 1: typically it would come off of things like Instagram and facebooks.
27:26
Speaker 1: And that's one of the biggest ways I know perpetrators
27:28
Speaker 1: still go after people, but as it's kind of unassumed
27:31
Speaker 1: that they wouldn't use this platform, right, So the research
27:34
Speaker 1: completely backs this up. So these groups like Exodus CRY
27:37
Speaker 1: in the National Center for Sexual Expectation, they maintain that
27:40
Speaker 1: they want to shut down these platforms because they're hotbeds
27:43
Speaker 1: of you know, sex trafficked miners being used in child pornography.
27:47
Speaker 1: But we know that the majority of abused miners are
27:50
Speaker 1: not appearing on sites like only Fans. They're appearing on
27:53
Speaker 1: mainstream social media sites like you said Facebook. So according
27:56
Speaker 1: to the data, Facebook, not Only Fans, is by far
28:00
Speaker 1: the biggest offender when it comes to child sexual abuse content.
28:04
Speaker 1: According to an independent study released earlier this year by
28:06
Speaker 1: the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, mind Geek,
28:10
Speaker 1: the parent company of corn Hub, which runs red Tube
28:12
Speaker 1: and several other adult tube sites, accounted for thirteen thousand,
28:16
Speaker 1: two hundred and twenty nine instances of what they deemed
28:19
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse material, while Snapchat had a hundred and
28:23
Speaker 1: forty four thousand, ninety five instances. Google had five hundred
28:26
Speaker 1: forty six seven hundred and four instances. In Facebook topped
28:30
Speaker 1: everybody with a whopping twenty point three million instances. Meanwhile,
28:35
Speaker 1: Only Fans recently released its first transparency report and claimed
28:39
Speaker 1: to have deactivated a total of fifteen accounts responsible for
28:42
Speaker 1: child sexual abuse material. So we can see the main
28:45
Speaker 1: offenders are not sites like only Fans, It's Facebook, It's
28:49
Speaker 1: it's mainstream social media platforms by far, holy crab millions
28:55
Speaker 1: compared to like hundreds of thousands. That's that is an absurd. Um.
29:02
Speaker 1: That was mind blowing. Yes, um, And I think going
29:08
Speaker 1: back to to what you've been talking about bridget One
29:11
Speaker 1: of the most upsetting things about this to me is that, Yeah,
29:14
Speaker 1: I feel like we're using victims of sex trafficking without
29:18
Speaker 1: talking to them. We're just using them to And by we,
29:22
Speaker 1: I mean society and specifically not us with these groups.
29:26
Speaker 1: But yeah, we're we're like propping them up to you know,
29:29
Speaker 1: do things and when to make ourselves feel better like politicians,
29:35
Speaker 1: politicians and legislators aren't asking them, and we aren't asking
29:39
Speaker 1: sex workers because I know this is something we talked
29:41
Speaker 1: about when SESTA and FOSTA was up and it was
29:48
Speaker 1: all about sex trafficking. But sex workers were like, no,
29:51
Speaker 1: you're you're really not understanding what this is going to
29:53
Speaker 1: do the impact of this, right, So you and I
29:56
Speaker 1: did an episode of stuff I've never told you about
29:58
Speaker 1: this back in that can listen to about SESTA and FOSTA.
30:02
Speaker 1: So in this legislation about regulating the Internet um SESTA,
30:07
Speaker 1: which stands for the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act and FOSTA,
30:10
Speaker 1: which stands for the Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act, was
30:14
Speaker 1: ostensibly meant to crack down on sex trafficking, but actually
30:18
Speaker 1: just further criminalized consensual sex work. And one of the
30:21
Speaker 1: reasons why this is so upsetting is that advocates say
30:24
Speaker 1: that cracking down on consensual sex work can actually harm
30:28
Speaker 1: sex trafficking victims. Right, So one, it cuts off this
30:32
Speaker 1: safer online avenue for sex workers to make money and
30:34
Speaker 1: leaves them more vulnerable to like dangerous situations like trafficking.
30:39
Speaker 1: So here's a good quote. Not having the online outlet
30:42
Speaker 1: is going to hinder and harm a lot of people.
30:44
Speaker 1: Online is much safer, particularly for trans and gender non
30:47
Speaker 1: conforming folks. This is from La La Zannel, the a
30:49
Speaker 1: c l used trans justice campaign manager who is doing
30:52
Speaker 1: a lot of the work to lead decriminalization of sex
30:55
Speaker 1: work campaigning. And then another aspect of this is that
30:58
Speaker 1: sex workers truly do often act as a line of
31:02
Speaker 1: defense for spotting and reporting sex trafficking because of the
31:05
Speaker 1: nature of their work, they really know the signs. And
31:08
Speaker 1: so if we're going to be criminalizing sex workers, we're
31:11
Speaker 1: actually going to make everyone less safe because sex workers
31:13
Speaker 1: are going to be much less likely to say, you know, hey,
31:17
Speaker 1: I know what consensual sex work between adults looks like,
31:20
Speaker 1: and what I'm seeing it right now is not it.
31:23
Speaker 1: I need to report this. If sex workers are further criminalized,
31:27
Speaker 1: they're gonna be much less likely to do that. Yeah,
31:29
Speaker 1: And it's you know these groups that are saying like
31:32
Speaker 1: we're just trying to stop sex trafficking and ultimately hurting
31:36
Speaker 1: victims of sex trafficking even more, and just even funding
31:39
Speaker 1: or attention, like multiple levels of it. And then recently
31:44
Speaker 1: I saw a headline. I was surprised it didn't make
31:47
Speaker 1: bigger news, but it was about porn Hub and porn
31:50
Speaker 1: hub is being sued by several people who used it,
31:54
Speaker 1: and they were claiming, you know, porn Hubb had been
31:56
Speaker 1: engaged in all of this kind of like really dark,
32:00
Speaker 1: messed up stuff, right. Oh yeah, So to be super clear,
32:05
Speaker 1: earlier it was giving the stats of where content involving
32:08
Speaker 1: abused miner shows up, and I said that Facebook was
32:11
Speaker 1: by far the biggest defender when you compared things like
32:13
Speaker 1: only fans or porn Hub. But I need to be
32:16
Speaker 1: very clear, like, let's not get it twisted. I cannot
32:18
Speaker 1: stress this enough. Porn Hub is a legitimately bad actor.
32:22
Speaker 1: It is a hotbed of awful, abusive, not to mention
32:27
Speaker 1: a legal sexual content. So I don't want to make
32:30
Speaker 1: it seem like I'm downplaying how horrible that place is
32:33
Speaker 1: because it true. They truly are a bad actor in
32:35
Speaker 1: this space, which is why porn Hub was an early
32:38
Speaker 1: target of these morality groups. So the history of this
32:42
Speaker 1: is a little bit complicated, so I'll try to keep
32:43
Speaker 1: it brief. The New York Times Nicholas Kristof published an
32:47
Speaker 1: expose on porn Hub that found that many of the
32:49
Speaker 1: videos there were of miners and non consensual sexual violence.
32:53
Speaker 1: But the problem with this article is that his primary
32:56
Speaker 1: source was a woman called Layla mickel Wade, and she
33:00
Speaker 1: is the former director of Abolition of Exodus Scribe and
33:03
Speaker 1: the founder of an anti porn hub campaign called Trafficking Hub.
33:06
Speaker 1: And you know, we'll remember that Exodus cries their their
33:09
Speaker 1: whole thing Exodus cry is to attack pornography under the
33:13
Speaker 1: guise of fighting sex trafficking. And so this article did
33:18
Speaker 1: a lot to legitimize cracking down on legal consensual pornography
33:22
Speaker 1: made by adults as a means of cracking down on trafficking, which,
33:26
Speaker 1: as we know, are two different things. And as a result,
33:29
Speaker 1: back in December, MasterCard, Visa and Discover blocked their customers
33:33
Speaker 1: from being able to make purchases on porn Hub. I
33:36
Speaker 1: think now, if you want to make purchases on porn help.
33:37
Speaker 1: You basically have to use like cryptocurrency like bitcoin, because
33:40
Speaker 1: you can't use any of these major payment processors. And
33:44
Speaker 1: sex worker Mary Moody told Dazed at its route, the
33:47
Speaker 1: New York Times article is a religious anti porn groups propaganda.
33:51
Speaker 1: It uses salacious anecdotes to tickle the puritanical subconscious of
33:55
Speaker 1: the nation with its ultimate goal of censoring pornography. Um,
33:58
Speaker 1: and you know, this is kind of like, for me,
34:01
Speaker 1: one of those things where it's like even a stop
34:03
Speaker 1: clock is right twice a day, where porn Hub is
34:06
Speaker 1: legitimately a bad actor. And so I'm not exactly crying
34:09
Speaker 1: any tears that they were, you know, pressured into breaking
34:14
Speaker 1: ties with major financial processors. But I've actually seen a
34:17
Speaker 1: lot of advocates say that cracking down on places like
34:20
Speaker 1: porn Hub, while you know, well intentioned because porn Hub
34:24
Speaker 1: is a bad actor, the consequences are actually more likely
34:28
Speaker 1: to be felt by independent adult content creators who are
34:31
Speaker 1: you know, following the law to create their content. And
34:34
Speaker 1: so again it's a little bit of a complicated issue
34:36
Speaker 1: because porn Hub, they truly are like a bad actor.
34:40
Speaker 1: And I do not want to pretend that there anything,
34:42
Speaker 1: but but it's just another one of those situations where
34:45
Speaker 1: in the end the person who is feeling the consequences
34:49
Speaker 1: are the independent creators who are like following the law.
34:53
Speaker 1: And I think that's the whole complication of any of
34:56
Speaker 1: this in general, that are always bad and good and
35:00
Speaker 1: and it was set up to fail to begin with
35:02
Speaker 1: with the fact that again, people who are looking to
35:05
Speaker 1: make change aren't the people who have been in this
35:08
Speaker 1: industry in any way whatsoever, and who those who have
35:10
Speaker 1: actually done it safely and have done it in a
35:13
Speaker 1: way that is consensual and you know everything that they
35:16
Speaker 1: are the ones. They're not being talked to. Again, they're
35:18
Speaker 1: being dismissed as if they are part of the problem.
35:22
Speaker 1: As well as the fact that yeah, you're right, sometimes
35:24
Speaker 1: they're right. Sometimes absolutely, there are all situations that yeah,
35:27
Speaker 1: that you are correct here, revenge porn, porn hubs, use
35:31
Speaker 1: of any video being just uploaded and being allowed because
35:36
Speaker 1: people are mean, um in general. Sure, but yeah, that's
35:40
Speaker 1: the thing is that they want to harp on that
35:42
Speaker 1: and saying thing, this is the prime example of what
35:44
Speaker 1: is wrong, instead of actually looking at the root cause
35:46
Speaker 1: of what is happening. In the fact that we've felt
35:48
Speaker 1: many of people in general, the fact that they like
35:52
Speaker 1: they went down this road to the first place. We
35:54
Speaker 1: don't know why, but I'm guaranteed because capitalism, you know,
35:59
Speaker 1: it's all is capitalism, right, Like I don't care what
36:02
Speaker 1: the problem is. Nine times in ten the reason for
36:05
Speaker 1: it is capitalism. I have come. I have come to
36:07
Speaker 1: see that very clearly. I don't know, I mean, this
36:24
Speaker 1: is this is my opinion, but I think that in general,
36:27
Speaker 1: we just have this attitude that certain people are quote
36:31
Speaker 1: undesirable and it doesn't matter if they are, you know,
36:36
Speaker 1: just making a living for themselves, following the law, like
36:39
Speaker 1: a lot of sex workers, and I know they pay taxes,
36:43
Speaker 1: they have accountants, they have like it is work. It
36:47
Speaker 1: is not it is not some horrible immoral thing. And
36:51
Speaker 1: this idea that like we don't even need to we
36:55
Speaker 1: don't even need to talk to these people about the
36:57
Speaker 1: work they engage in and how we can make it
36:59
Speaker 1: safe burn and and you know, their concerns in the industry,
37:03
Speaker 1: they're not even worth hearing. I think that that really
37:06
Speaker 1: goes to this fundamental way that we really, we were
37:10
Speaker 1: really comfortable to humanizing entire populations of marginalized communities, And
37:14
Speaker 1: I think sex workers really is a great example of that.
37:18
Speaker 1: You know, the fact that only fans didn't even feel
37:21
Speaker 1: like they needed to consult sex workers before making this
37:23
Speaker 1: change on their platform, that is a platform that is
37:26
Speaker 1: almost entirely used by sex workers. What does that tell
37:30
Speaker 1: you they didn't even feel the need to consult sex workers?
37:32
Speaker 1: People have policy conversations that will dictate how they are
37:37
Speaker 1: able to work and make money without even talking to them,
37:40
Speaker 1: without and without even seeing them necessary to be talked
37:43
Speaker 1: to you. But I think it really speaks to this
37:45
Speaker 1: idea of like, who do we see as worthy and
37:48
Speaker 1: who do we see as just not even human, not
37:51
Speaker 1: even worth speaking to? Right? And I just love the
37:54
Speaker 1: hypocrisy of the fact that, yeah, it's a growing, booming
37:58
Speaker 1: industry and it has existed and continu us exist, and
38:01
Speaker 1: it is being funded by these most likely by the
38:03
Speaker 1: same individuals who are harping the loudest uh, And we're like,
38:07
Speaker 1: are we ignoring that fact that there is a reason
38:09
Speaker 1: why this industry is as successful as it is, So
38:13
Speaker 1: let's talk about that and why you're seemingly ignoring that
38:15
Speaker 1: part of this whole conversation. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean listen,
38:20
Speaker 1: even if you're not somebody who watches porn or like
38:22
Speaker 1: is involved in sex work. It's part of our society.
38:25
Speaker 1: It's not going away, you know, like it's been They
38:28
Speaker 1: call it the oldest profession for a reason. It's not
38:30
Speaker 1: going away. So we need to stop acting like legislating
38:35
Speaker 1: pornography and sex work out of existence. It's like a
38:39
Speaker 1: idea born out of reality, because it's just not. And
38:42
Speaker 1: so instead we should be talking about how we make
38:45
Speaker 1: things safer, how we can support sex workers, how we
38:48
Speaker 1: can empower sex workers to act as a line of
38:51
Speaker 1: defense against things like trafficking, rather than saying no, we're
38:54
Speaker 1: just gonna try to act like it's reasonable to completely
38:58
Speaker 1: get rid of this entire boo being billion dollar industry, right,
39:03
Speaker 1: And I think in our like media saturated world, we're
39:06
Speaker 1: really bad at nuance, and like headlines are very bad
39:10
Speaker 1: often at communicating what all all the complexities nuances in
39:15
Speaker 1: a conversation like this. So when you have these like
39:18
Speaker 1: anti boreography groups being quoted and you know, reputable newspaper
39:22
Speaker 1: and they are right in this instance, but they're right
39:24
Speaker 1: for the wrong reasons, Like the reasons they're giving are incorrect,
39:28
Speaker 1: but the ultimate place they arrive at is correct, but
39:31
Speaker 1: we lost all of that complexity and nuance, and it
39:36
Speaker 1: just muddies the whole situation and we're we're like, well,
39:39
Speaker 1: of okay, I mean, I'm I'm I like to think
39:43
Speaker 1: I'm a better I'm pretty savvy when it comes to
39:45
Speaker 1: things like that, But I didn't know what only Fans was,
39:47
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people like it ends
39:48
Speaker 1: there like, Okay, porn Hub is like only Fans. In
39:52
Speaker 1: my mind, porn Hub was bad, therefore this one's probably
39:55
Speaker 1: bad and that's the end. And you can feel good
39:57
Speaker 1: about yourself because you feel like you're helping sex trafficking
40:00
Speaker 1: or you've made a smart, informed decision. And so I
40:05
Speaker 1: do think like things like that do make me really
40:08
Speaker 1: angry because I feel like people, a lot of people
40:13
Speaker 1: do have like they're coming from the right place. Like
40:15
Speaker 1: obviously there's some bad actors coming from the wrong place,
40:17
Speaker 1: but there are people who are and you know, they
40:21
Speaker 1: read this thing and they're like, Okay, then that's how
40:24
Speaker 1: it is, and you know, not taking the further steps
40:27
Speaker 1: because they're busy or whatever it is. So it just
40:29
Speaker 1: makes me mad that that's happening. And then you get
40:35
Speaker 1: this only fans thing, which has been very confusing because
40:39
Speaker 1: they sort of there was this huge outcry over it.
40:44
Speaker 1: And honestly, if I hadn't, if we hadn't had this conversation,
40:47
Speaker 1: I hadn't looked into it, I would have just thought,
40:48
Speaker 1: like I would have thought it was another pornography website,
40:54
Speaker 1: the way like Late Night Show post, we're talking about it,
40:58
Speaker 1: and then only fans changes their minds. But that's I mean,
41:03
Speaker 1: it's ongoing, right, oh, absolutely, And so even though only
41:07
Speaker 1: bands backed off of the decision, this is definitely not
41:10
Speaker 1: the end of the story. Right. So, first of all,
41:12
Speaker 1: as somebody who does a lot of tech accountability work
41:15
Speaker 1: and like a lot of like platform pressure work, tech
41:18
Speaker 1: platforms are always very tricky with their announcements. So I
41:22
Speaker 1: clocked right away that their official line was that they
41:24
Speaker 1: were suspending their band on explicit content, right. And so
41:29
Speaker 1: that was the same exact language that Facebook used when
41:31
Speaker 1: they initially banned Trump, which sounded, you know, very finite,
41:35
Speaker 1: but actually just left the door open for them to
41:37
Speaker 1: revisit that decision just you know a few months down
41:40
Speaker 1: the line. And so I would really like to know, like,
41:43
Speaker 1: are they actually permanently backing off of this band forever
41:47
Speaker 1: or you know, because the words suspend really couldn't mean
41:50
Speaker 1: a lot of things. And I think it's why tech
41:52
Speaker 1: companies in their official releases like to use that kind
41:55
Speaker 1: of language, because you know, it really couldn't mean a
41:59
Speaker 1: lot of things. And so I really want to know,
42:01
Speaker 1: like more about their decision. Is it just for this
42:05
Speaker 1: one payment processor that they were you know, capitulating to,
42:10
Speaker 1: or and so look, if another payment processor wants to
42:12
Speaker 1: pull our cut ties, they're gonna you know, go through
42:15
Speaker 1: this again. Like I need more definitive information from Only
42:19
Speaker 1: Fans before I start getting excited. And also the fact
42:22
Speaker 1: that these religious groups have made it clear they have
42:25
Speaker 1: no intention of giving up an exodus. Christ spokesperson she
42:28
Speaker 1: tweeted that Twitter is going to be their next target.
42:31
Speaker 1: And you know, even if you're not a sex worker
42:34
Speaker 1: or not or not on Only Fans, you should be
42:36
Speaker 1: concerned about the way that trafficking is being used to
42:38
Speaker 1: drive crusades against how adults can use these platforms, because
42:42
Speaker 1: all of us should be concerned about that. And again,
42:45
Speaker 1: you know, sex workers have been raising the alarm about
42:49
Speaker 1: this that when their communities are cracked down on are marginalized,
42:53
Speaker 1: are you know, censored? Everybody should be concerned, and so
42:57
Speaker 1: you know, these groups have made it clue that they're
42:59
Speaker 1: even though I think they see this as we lost
43:02
Speaker 1: this battle, but we had and lost the war. And
43:04
Speaker 1: then lastly, you know, the damage is done. Sex workers
43:08
Speaker 1: have rightly lost so much trust in this platform, and
43:11
Speaker 1: many are looking for alternatives because that trust is just
43:14
Speaker 1: so damaged. And you know, as I said, sex workers
43:17
Speaker 1: are already marginalized, and we're already in a pandemic, like
43:20
Speaker 1: everybody is having a hard time, especially folks who were
43:22
Speaker 1: already marginalized. And so we know that sex work is work,
43:25
Speaker 1: and sex workers do not deserve to have their livelihoods
43:28
Speaker 1: be threatened like this, especially when they are the ones
43:31
Speaker 1: who made only fans the platform that it is today.
43:34
Speaker 1: There's this great quote in this great piece in Days
43:38
Speaker 1: from a sex worker named Savannah. They say the proposed
43:41
Speaker 1: ban is bull Only fans knows its site would be
43:44
Speaker 1: nothing without sex workers, period, it would be nothing. I
43:48
Speaker 1: wasn't surprised, but damn I was disappointed. This happens every
43:52
Speaker 1: time sex workers build a new platform up. It happened
43:54
Speaker 1: to Patreon and now only fans and it will happen
43:57
Speaker 1: to whatever site we migrate to after this. They will
44:00
Speaker 1: let us break our backs to build a platform, only
44:02
Speaker 1: to spit in our faces and toss us out as
44:04
Speaker 1: soon as they've made their money. And I think that
44:08
Speaker 1: that quote really says it all, you know, And I
44:11
Speaker 1: have to say one other thing, Annie, to your point
44:13
Speaker 1: about you know why only fans backed off of this decision.
44:17
Speaker 1: I think one it was because of the organizing power
44:21
Speaker 1: and collective pressure of sex workers, because sex workers are
44:24
Speaker 1: very powerful, and when they use their voices and speak up,
44:27
Speaker 1: those voices are heard. Because sex workers, I mean, it's
44:30
Speaker 1: it's a it's a powerful industry. So that's one. But too,
44:34
Speaker 1: I also think it is folks learning from the porn
44:38
Speaker 1: Hub situation and not letting groups like Exodus Cry really
44:42
Speaker 1: set the tone right, and so not just taking in
44:45
Speaker 1: these groups at face value that like, oh, well they
44:47
Speaker 1: say they're an anti trafficking group, nothing to look into
44:50
Speaker 1: their they are completely you know, there are a great
44:53
Speaker 1: source to base this entire expose on that will go
44:56
Speaker 1: on to shape the policies of how porn hub operates.
45:00
Speaker 1: I think this time around, people were unwilling to just
45:03
Speaker 1: allow for religious anti pornography groups to set the agenda
45:07
Speaker 1: without any kind of push back. And so I think
45:10
Speaker 1: making sure that all of us really have our kind
45:12
Speaker 1: of like critical thinking ears on when folks are talking
45:15
Speaker 1: about sex work, when sex work is being legislated and
45:18
Speaker 1: sex workers are not part of the conversation, all of
45:21
Speaker 1: our little smighty senses should tingle to be like, oh,
45:23
Speaker 1: this might be something that is not as it seems. Yes,
45:27
Speaker 1: I'm glad to hear you say that. That makes me
45:29
Speaker 1: very happy because that when you when you were like, yeah,
45:31
Speaker 1: they quoted this one person kind of anti foreign lady,
45:36
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, no, it's not good. So I'm
45:41
Speaker 1: glad that that it seems to be that seems to
45:44
Speaker 1: be changing. Yeah. We should always all of us be
45:46
Speaker 1: very ask where like news is coming from, and um,
45:51
Speaker 1: just who who's behind it and the motives behind it
45:54
Speaker 1: and the motives behind decisions like this and that being said,
45:58
Speaker 1: are there things that we can do to help? I'm
46:03
Speaker 1: so glad you asked. Absolutely. Um. The first is supporting
46:07
Speaker 1: sex worker owned and operated collectives and spaces, and one
46:10
Speaker 1: that I love is the Sex Worker Outreach Project Behind Bars.
46:13
Speaker 1: We can find it at s w o P Behind
46:16
Speaker 1: Bars dot org. It is a great or working on
46:20
Speaker 1: the decriminalization of sex work, not further criminalizing it, and
46:24
Speaker 1: it is fantastic. Um. And then also you might have
46:27
Speaker 1: local options of organizations in your community that are really
46:31
Speaker 1: supporting sex workers. Um. I live in d C. One
46:33
Speaker 1: of my favorite organizations is HIPS. I love Hips. They're
46:36
Speaker 1: a great organization that really focuses on harm reduction and
46:40
Speaker 1: really just you know, their sex worker outreach is like,
46:43
Speaker 1: what do you need? What can we get you? How
46:44
Speaker 1: can we work make this work safer for you, better
46:47
Speaker 1: for you? You know? And yeah, so do some digging
46:51
Speaker 1: into organizations in your community that might be good places
46:53
Speaker 1: to help support sex workers. Also, when policies about sex
46:58
Speaker 1: work are being discussed, look to sex workers for insight.
47:01
Speaker 1: You know. Even in putting together my research for this episode,
47:04
Speaker 1: you know, I talked to sex workers. I've had articles
47:07
Speaker 1: about sex work written by sex workers. I followed sex
47:10
Speaker 1: workers on social media. And I really want to shout
47:11
Speaker 1: out a few people who's writing and thinking kind of
47:14
Speaker 1: helped me get a better understanding of this entire only
47:16
Speaker 1: fan situation. First is Kathy resin Wits. Kathy is an
47:20
Speaker 1: Only Fans creator and a writer who covers the intersection
47:23
Speaker 1: of tech and sex work. You can find are writing
47:25
Speaker 1: all over the web. It's super good and another is
47:27
Speaker 1: Ashley Like the sex Worker Outreach Project Ashley's Twitter was
47:30
Speaker 1: super helpful and mean just getting a better understanding of
47:33
Speaker 1: the kind of attacks that sex workers face on a
47:35
Speaker 1: regular basis and a general understanding of the only fan situation.
47:39
Speaker 1: Ashley is actually promoting an online action for September one
47:42
Speaker 1: to protest banking discrimination and the platform and stability that
47:45
Speaker 1: sex workers often face. So check out Ashley's Twitter feed
47:48
Speaker 1: and the hashtag acceptance matters for more information. And again
47:51
Speaker 1: just recognize that sex workers often just by the nature
47:55
Speaker 1: of the work that they do, have really interesting, smart, nuanced,
47:58
Speaker 1: thoughtful takes on things tech and culture, so they're always
48:01
Speaker 1: going to be a smart follow if you're looking to
48:03
Speaker 1: learn more. Again, both amazing resources and yeah, just do
48:08
Speaker 1: some work finding interesting voices of sex workers that you
48:11
Speaker 1: can look to when things involving sex work is in
48:15
Speaker 1: the news, so that you're not just taking somebody else's
48:17
Speaker 1: word for it, you know, without actually listening to their voices.
48:22
Speaker 1: Because again, sex workers have very interesting stuff to say
48:26
Speaker 1: about technology and culture and also, of course sex work.
48:29
Speaker 1: And then the last things I'll say are kind of
48:32
Speaker 1: I guess sort of um self work, as as as
48:35
Speaker 1: my therapist might say. So, the first part of this
48:39
Speaker 1: kind of like internalizing self work is really recognizing that
48:43
Speaker 1: sex workers don't need to be saved quote unquote. They
48:47
Speaker 1: need support, they need resources, they need you know, they
48:51
Speaker 1: don't they don't need someone to like you know, I
48:54
Speaker 1: guess a lot of the way that people talk about
48:57
Speaker 1: sex work is like, we're gonna save you from this lifestyle,
49:00
Speaker 1: and that's not really what sex workers are looking for.
49:03
Speaker 1: Sex workers are looking they need support, right, And so
49:06
Speaker 1: disavowing yourself of that internalized notion that somebody who was
49:10
Speaker 1: involved in sex work automatically is someone who you know
49:14
Speaker 1: is looking to be saved, I think shutting the door
49:18
Speaker 1: on that fiction was really helpful for me understanding sex
49:22
Speaker 1: work in general. And then lastly, if you consider yourself
49:26
Speaker 1: a feminist, really deeply include sex workers in your feminism
49:30
Speaker 1: and in your analysis of feminism, you know, recognize it,
49:34
Speaker 1: you know, if you've ever watched pornography, taken a pull
49:37
Speaker 1: workout class, if you enjoyed the film Hustlers with Jennifer Lopez,
49:40
Speaker 1: which I know I did. All of these things are
49:43
Speaker 1: things that we have because of sex workers. And so
49:45
Speaker 1: you know, even if you're not somebody who enjoys sex work,
49:49
Speaker 1: all you only need to look around to see all
49:51
Speaker 1: of the ways that sex workers and sex work have
49:54
Speaker 1: defined and shaped our culture and that at the very least,
49:57
Speaker 1: sex workers deserve support. And if you consider yourself a feminist,
50:01
Speaker 1: I believe that it's essential to include sex workers in
50:05
Speaker 1: your analysis of feminism. Totally agreed, So well said, and yeah,
50:10
Speaker 1: I think it's it's another point that you make and
50:13
Speaker 1: we make in in these segments and these episodes. A
50:16
Speaker 1: lot is that kind of that critical thinking and just
50:19
Speaker 1: ask yourself when you're enjoying it, like do a little
50:22
Speaker 1: bit of research and where did this come from? And
50:24
Speaker 1: who are the people that made it? And who are
50:26
Speaker 1: the people that maybe got kicked off of it, and
50:28
Speaker 1: like just really asking those questions because this is, I mean,
50:32
Speaker 1: this is pretty that a platform, and it's happened before
50:36
Speaker 1: several times. As you mentioned, it would be like okay,
50:38
Speaker 1: we've attracted in heavy quotes like more classy audience, Now goodbye,
50:44
Speaker 1: we don't need you anymore. Like that's terrible, yes, really, yeah, yeah,
50:51
Speaker 1: So thank you for bringing this to our attention. It
50:56
Speaker 1: is always such a delight to have these discussions with you,
50:58
Speaker 1: and I feel much more because I was confused by
51:01
Speaker 1: the whole thing, So thank you, thank you for having me.
51:06
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a media subject, it's it's, it's and
51:09
Speaker 1: again this was all all this information was accurate as
51:11
Speaker 1: of today Friday, but it's an ongoing situation so this
51:14
Speaker 1: could change, so keep an eye on it, you know. Yes, yeah,
51:17
Speaker 1: we'll go in time stamp does. This is August one,
51:21
Speaker 1: so if there's things can change. We have to do
51:24
Speaker 1: this a lot because we're out of date typically within
51:26
Speaker 1: a week. So thanks so quickly. So Bridget, where could
51:31
Speaker 1: the good listeners find you? Well, you can listen to
51:34
Speaker 1: my podcast on this very network called There Are No
51:37
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet, where we talk all about all
51:39
Speaker 1: of these fun, media complex issues of the ways that
51:43
Speaker 1: tech and culture and marginalized communities and feminism intersect. You
51:46
Speaker 1: can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever
51:50
Speaker 1: you get your podcast on. You can follow me on
51:52
Speaker 1: social media. I'm at Bridget Marie on Twitter and Bridget
51:55
Speaker 1: Murray in DC on Instagram. Yes, and definitely check out
52:00
Speaker 1: all of those things can't wait to have you back, Bridget.
52:04
Speaker 1: If you would like to emails, you can. Our email
52:07
Speaker 1: is Stuff Media Mom, Stuff at I Hurt mea dot com.
52:09
Speaker 1: You can find us on Twitter at most Stuff podcast
52:11
Speaker 1: or on Instagram at Stuff I Never Told to You.
52:12
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you,
52:16
Speaker 1: and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
52:17
Speaker 1: the direction of iHeart Radio. For more podcast on iHeart Radio,
52:20
Speaker 1: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
52:22
Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.