Latest / Story Magic / 90 - Who is the internal narrator?

Transcript

90 - Who is the internal narrator? · Story Magic

2:28
Emily: Hey, writers.
2:28
Emily: Welcome back to Story Magic, the podcast that will help you write a book you're damn proud of.
2:32
Rachel: I'm Rachel.
2:33
Emily: And I'm Emily.
2:34
Rachel: And today we are talking about internal dialogue, internal narration, your character's thoughts going on inside of their heads.
2:44
Emily: We. We call it internal processing because everybody has to have a different word for it.
2:48
Rachel: Every interiority is a common word.
2:51
Rachel: The things that go on inside, that's.
2:53
Emily: Inside that are not within quotes.
2:56
Rachel: Yes. So I'm bringing this to you today because I had a really good conversation with one of my one on one clients about this, and I thought it was a good question that he had asked.
3:08
Rachel: So what we were talking about, basically we've been drafting pages in his book and working on including internal processing, which is that internal dialogue on the page so that you can see the character's thoughts, reactions, feelings, like in action at the time that things are going on.
3:31
Rachel: So that's one of the skills that we practice in our one on one coaching program, and we work on that together as we review pages.
3:40
Rachel: Anyway, so we were doing that and I had asked him, like, let's put more in there.
3:46
Rachel: We need a little bit more.
3:47
Rachel: We need to see what's going on inside this character's head so that we understand, you know, why they're doing things, why they're pursuing their goals, why it matters to them, what they're thinking, what they're feeling.
3:57
Rachel: And we have a whole episode on the show, don't tell version of this, which is episode 51.
4:06
Rachel: So if you're like, I have no idea what you're talking about, listen to that episode first.
4:12
Rachel: It's called our Character Thoughts Show Don't Tell.
4:15
Rachel: And it, that episode really dives into, like, the purpose of character thoughts and how you can use them.
4:23
Rachel: This question my client asked builds off that because that's the skill we were practicing is using thoughts to show notel.
4:30
Rachel: So he had asked, to sum it up pretty quickly, who are, who is this character talking to inside their head?
4:39
Rachel: Who are they talking to?
4:41
Rachel: How do you write this?
4:41
Rachel: As you know, are they.
4:44
Rachel: Do they have a narrator inside their head that they're thinking to, talking to?
4:51
Rachel: And we had a good conversation come out of that because they're talking to themselves.
4:56
Rachel: They're not really talking to like a narrator unless your character, I think, is like affecting something like making a joke or they're, you know, they're doing that for a reason.
5:06
Rachel: But character thoughts are just the characters talking to themselves.
5:11
Rachel: Talking to themselves.
5:13
Emily: I feel like this gets tricky in first person Especially because it feels like first person feels like you should be writing somebody telling their story.
5:22
Emily: Right?
5:22
Emily: Especially if it's like first person past.
5:26
Emily: And sometimes that's what you want to do, right?
5:29
Emily: Sometimes that is like the approach that people take, usually at the beginnings and ends of scenes.
5:36
Emily: If you're taking that, it'll be like taking that approach.
5:38
Emily: It'll be in somebody's telling their history or something.
5:41
Emily: I'm reading the Adventures of Amina Al Sarafi right now, and it takes that approach.
5:47
Emily: Like, the idea, the framework of the book is that Aminah is telling her life story.
5:51
Emily: And at the beginnings and ends of some of the chapters, she will be talking to the reader.
5:56
Emily: Right?
5:56
Emily: But then when we slip into the scene, the author slips the reader into Amina's character and into Amina's body, her eyes, her mind.
6:10
Emily: And so it's no longer Amina telling the reader the story.
6:12
Emily: It's just Amina narrating to herself kind of what she's seeing, if that makes sense.
6:18
Rachel: Yeah, no, I think that's a great point, because I also see that, and it feels like a very conscious author choice to do it that way versus the character is constant.
6:30
Rachel: I mean, I just feel like that would get old if that was the constant take of a character to talk to somebody.
6:36
Rachel: But I could see that in the right genre, maybe like a comedy and this is fiction.
6:41
Rachel: I mean, if this is memoir, you might be dealing with something different.
6:44
Rachel: But we're not talking about that.
6:46
Rachel: Um, but I just read a romance where I can't remember exactly what happened, but the.
6:52
Rachel: The female lead was, like, getting in deeper with the male lead, falling in love.
6:58
Rachel: And then at the very last sentence of a scene was like.
7:01
Rachel: And I didn't know how bad of a decision that would be, and like implying later we're gonna find out that was a bad decision.
7:09
Rachel: But, like, it.
7:10
Rachel: It was not.
7:11
Rachel: That was not in.
7:12
Rachel: That was.
7:14
Rachel: That was outside a regular character thought.
7:17
Rachel: You know, because if you were in action, if you were inside a character's head as things were unfolding, a character would not think that.
7:25
Rachel: A person would not think that.
7:27
Rachel: That's like, I am set outside.
7:29
Rachel: I am.
7:29
Rachel: I am a character looking outside, looking in and criticizing my own choices.
7:33
Rachel: Because I know now at a later version, that was not a good choice.
7:38
Rachel: And they're different.
7:40
Rachel: But when I was talking.
7:42
Rachel: Oh, go ahead, go ahead.
7:44
Rachel: When I was talking to my client about this, we started talking about people who are natural external processors versus people who are natural, like internal processors.
7:57
Rachel: And outside of characters.
7:59
Rachel: I'm talking now about authors where I do.
8:02
Rachel: There are some people like myself, who.
8:05
Rachel: My regular internal narrative as a human being is always dialed up to 10, right?
8:13
Emily: Yeah.
8:14
Rachel: I am talking to myself.
8:16
Rachel: I'm thinking my things all day long.
8:19
Emily: With some sass, I'm sure.
8:21
Rachel: With some sass.
8:22
Rachel: But, like, that stream of consciousness is ever present, and I process things through that stream of consciousness.
8:30
Rachel: I'm not saying that some people don't have conscious thoughts.
8:34
Rachel: Like, I process things very easily through that.
8:38
Rachel: That stream of consciousness inside my own head.
8:41
Rachel: But I think there are.
8:43
Rachel: There are some people out there, and this is not me who.
8:46
Rachel: Who like, process very well through external conversation.
8:51
Rachel: So maybe it is a little different to be trying to write such a.
8:57
Rachel: Like a fluid character narrative on the inside when all you want to do as a person is talk, you know, like process out loud, you know.
9:07
Emily: Yeah.
9:08
Rachel: And I think.
9:09
Rachel: I think for him there was maybe some struggle between that of like.
9:12
Rachel: Well, I'm used to processing things out loud, not inside my head.
9:16
Rachel: So it's.
9:17
Rachel: It doesn't feel right to have this character be thinking all these things.
9:20
Rachel: They should be saying them out loud to somebody instead.
9:25
Rachel: Instead.
9:26
Emily: Yeah. Yeah. That's a really interesting perspective.
9:29
Emily: I hadn't thought about it that way.
9:31
Emily: I feel like it can take some getting used to, especially if you're a newer writer and especially, I think, in third person, to start to slip into.
9:40
Emily: Like, what does.
9:41
Emily: This is where a character voice lives is in, like, how they voice their thoughts.
9:45
Emily: That's really what a character voice comes down to, is the way in which they express what they're thinking to themselves on the page.
9:54
Emily: And you do that in first and third person.
9:57
Emily: Um, and it can be really easy to slip into.
10:02
Emily: And I'm talking like, line level here, like, small ways of breaking that.
10:07
Emily: I just.
10:08
Emily: We're reading.
10:09
Emily: So for In Tenacious Writing, our Community for writers, our writing program.
10:14
Emily: We're doing a book club tomorrow actually on.
10:17
Emily: I think it's how to Show Don't Tell.
10:19
Emily: It's by Janice Hardy.
10:20
Rachel: Understanding I'm just show Don't Tell and really getting it.
10:23
Rachel: I just have the fight right in front of my face.
10:25
Emily: It's incredible.
10:26
Emily: It's so, so good.
10:27
Emily: And she talks a lot about this, the line level, like, how you do this and like, what words to look for.
10:34
Emily: Because sometimes, like, even something as simple as saying, like, I thought she seemed ridiculous.
10:40
Emily: Let's just say.
10:41
Rachel: Right.
10:42
Emily: Like that is the character telling the reader that they think someone is.
10:45
Emily: Let's maybe not seemed, but is being ridiculous.
10:47
Emily: Right.
10:48
Emily: I Thought she was being ridiculous versus she's being ridiculous.
10:52
Emily: Right.
10:53
Emily: I thought she's being ridiculous.
10:54
Emily: Is the character saying that to somebody else versus just showing us the thought of she's being ridiculous right now.
11:00
Emily: Right.
11:00
Emily: That gives us voice.
11:01
Emily: It gives us like, we're in that character's head as they're thinking that, you know, this other character in the scene is being absurd.
11:07
Emily: And so like little things like that at the line level can really clean this up.
11:11
Emily: And I emphasize at the line level.
11:13
Emily: Cause like, this isn't something that we're going to be trying to do in our first drafts and stuff.
11:16
Emily: I'm actually, right now I'm writing backstory scenes for my new project.
11:20
Emily: And this morning I was, I was working on a scene and I was like, I don't really feel like getting into the head of a 12 year old right now.
11:29
Rachel: Yeah.
11:30
Emily: And so I just like told like I started telling the scene to myself.
11:33
Emily: I was like, okay, what if I'm the character and the character's just telling me?
11:36
Emily: And this is backstory, so it doesn't matter.
11:38
Emily: I'm the only one reading it.
11:39
Emily: Right.
11:39
Emily: Like, that can be a really useful tool if you like.
11:42
Emily: I just needed to tell myself a bunch of stuff about the world and like how this person's life and like community is like set up and works.
11:48
Emily: And I was like, I don't have the energy to like put myself in their 12 year old shoes to explain that.
11:53
Emily: So I'm just gonna have them explain it to me as an adult and just tell it to me.
11:57
Emily: And so like, sometimes that can be fine to just like step outside and have your character talk to you in those different ways for first draft or something.
12:03
Emily: But eventually what readers I think are often looking for is slipping into somebody else's experience.
12:09
Emily: And in order to do that, we have to be in their thoughts.
12:13
Emily: There's a disconnect if they're telling us the story versus if we're actually inside their head living the story in their brain.
12:20
Emily: That makes sense.
12:21
Rachel: Yeah. And I'm reminded like just now about like a book like Jane Eyre where there are, there are portions of that book that take place when she is an adult talking about her childhood.
12:37
Rachel: And that is like, I am telling you this and then correct me if I'm wrong, there are portions of that book where you're living in it with her.
12:47
Emily: Because now it's been so long since I read it.
12:50
Emily: Yeah, that sounds right.
12:52
Rachel: It sounds right because there's the famous line reader.
12:55
Rachel: I married him.
12:56
Rachel: Right.
12:57
Rachel: Like reader.
12:58
Rachel: That's who you're talking to.
12:59
Emily: Reader.
13:00
Rachel: I married him.
13:01
Rachel: But that's not usual, I would say.
13:04
Rachel: Or that's.
13:04
Rachel: I'll take that back.
13:06
Rachel: That would be a choice because of how that story is being told.
13:10
Rachel: Where you have a character standing in a point of time relaying different parts of their story that happened at different points of time and so they're narrating it differently.
13:24
Rachel: Versus if you have a character who we're trying to evoke the feeling of living this experience with that character in the moment, then I would not have a narrator or I would not be talking to a third party.
13:38
Rachel: Because that separates you, that takes you out of it.
13:42
Rachel: If you're trying to evoke a feeling to your reader, you're in it with this character.
13:47
Rachel: I want you to feel the way the character's feeling.
13:50
Rachel: I want you to experience this alongside them as if you're in it.
13:55
Rachel: Like next to them.
13:57
Emily: Yeah.
13:57
Rachel: Then I would say there's not a narrator.
14:00
Rachel: It's the stream of conscious thought.
14:01
Rachel: It's the.
14:02
Rachel: It's the voice that's going on inside the head.
14:05
Emily: Yeah.
14:06
Rachel: So there's not.
14:07
Rachel: I. I wanna clarify.
14:09
Rachel: I think that's just a choice.
14:11
Rachel: But be conscious of what choice you're making and why.
14:14
Emily: Yeah. Cause the last thing that you wanna do is like slipping it out of it all willy nilly.
14:19
Emily: Right.
14:19
Emily: With no purpose.
14:20
Emily: Because I think.
14:21
Emily: Right.
14:21
Emily: There's also a case to be made that there are certain cultures within which stories are told in a narrative way where somebody, you know, where a character stands in a point of time and tells a story.
14:30
Emily: And I think that's what's happening with Amina Al Sarafi in this book is like, this is a.
14:34
Emily: She lives in a culture in which this kind of oral storytelling is very integral.
14:39
Emily: And so that's great for me personally.
14:44
Emily: Right.
14:44
Emily: The first couple chapters where she was just kind of telling us a lot of stuff were not as engaging for me as when we finally like slipped into her skit.
14:50
Emily: She's a lady pirate.
14:52
Emily: Which is.
14:53
Emily: She's like a mom.
14:54
Emily: She's a mom of a 10 year old and she's a lady pirate and she goes back into lady pirating.
14:58
Emily: And it's amazing.
14:59
Emily: And so like, as soon as she's like with some knucklehead boys who don't realize who she is and think she's just some old lady and they like put her in this like precarious situation, you have to like save their lives.
15:08
Emily: Right.
15:08
Emily: Then I'm like slipped into her skin.
15:10
Emily: Like she's all Sassy.
15:11
Emily: I get to, like, see what it's like to live her life in her body, in her brain.
15:14
Emily: That was when I got really hooked.
15:16
Emily: But that doesn't mean, you know, it's like, the wrong way to write that book.
15:19
Emily: It just was a very intentional choice that that author made of how they wanted to tell that story.
15:24
Emily: And so you just want to make sure that when you're going in, right, for your client, your client wants to be sure that he understands who that internal voice is talking to.
15:33
Emily: Because otherwise, like, how are you supposed to make decisions on the front page?
15:34
Emily: And so that's.
15:36
Emily: That's what I would call a framework question, like, where is your narrator?
15:40
Emily: Where's your.
15:41
Emily: Who's telling your story?
15:42
Emily: And are they telling it in real time?
15:42
Emily: Right.
15:45
Emily: Are we living in their brain in real time?
15:47
Emily: Or are they telling it from a certain point in time?
15:49
Emily: Because wherever they are in time, telling that story is going to give them, Right.
15:53
Emily: Some bias and perspective on how they tell it.
15:57
Emily: Didn't know this would be a framework for podcast, but.
16:01
Rachel: But, yeah, well, some of it.
16:03
Rachel: But also, I don't know if you've seen this going around social media, but it was another.
16:08
Rachel: Another thing that came up during this conversation.
16:12
Rachel: I have no idea if this is accurate because to me, it feels like random social media misinformation, but it's brought.
16:19
Rachel: I've seen it multiple times, and every time there's like an intense discussion in the comment section.
16:26
Rachel: The thing that I saw, again, no idea if this is true, is, is that only 33% of people have an actual stream of consciousness thought.
16:37
Rachel: Like, you are thinking sentences and thinking words to yourself all the time.
16:43
Rachel: And that, like the other portion of society or the collective human experience is not thinking like that.
16:52
Rachel: They are thinking in images or some other nebulous way of experiencing consciousness.
16:59
Rachel: And like, that's.
17:00
Rachel: To me, the reason that feels so, like, that cannot be true is because I think in sentences.
17:06
Rachel: And to me I'm like, that's just consciousness.
17:10
Rachel: But we started discussing this because if you don't think in conscious thought and you.
17:16
Rachel: And I don't, I'm, again, I really am not trying to judge anybody.
17:19
Rachel: Yeah, this is not you, but like, to see a number like that.
17:22
Rachel: I was like, whoa, that's not how my brain does it.
17:26
Rachel: If someone else's brain doesn't have a think in words standard, or like, that's not how you think in words.
17:35
Rachel: You don't think in words.
17:37
Rachel: This would be something you'd have to consciously bring out.
17:40
Rachel: You know, it would be different than what's going on inside your own head.
17:44
Rachel: And that would be its own level of challenge.
17:47
Emily: You know, that's an interesting, that's an interesting like point though, because then you can make the argument that characters are going to be different too.
17:55
Emily: Right.
17:55
Emily: Some characters are going to think obsessively.
17:58
Emily: Right.
17:58
Emily: Like, if you've ever read, you know, one of those, like super pro, like not prosaic, that's not the right word, but like one of those romance novels, right.
18:08
Emily: Where the characters are just like obsessively thinking all of the time.
18:11
Emily: Great.
18:12
Emily: Love those books.
18:13
Emily: That's going to be so different than like some other book with a character who doesn't like it, doesn't think obsessively like that.
18:20
Emily: Right.
18:20
Emily: If you have like a. I just read the Dry by Jane Harper.
18:26
Emily: It was fantastic.
18:28
Emily: And the.
18:29
Emily: It's got a male point of view detective who thinks in these like, very like, dry sort of ways.
18:35
Emily: And a lot of it is like visual, right.
18:38
Emily: It's not a lot of internal processing.
18:40
Emily: And so, you know, there.
18:41
Emily: You can think about that with your character too, right.
18:43
Emily: Are they somebody who, who processes things that way or are they somebody who processes things in a physical manner?
18:49
Emily: Right.
18:49
Emily: Are they feeling a lot of stuff?
18:51
Emily: Are they paying attention?
18:51
Emily: Like, is it visual how they process the world?
18:55
Emily: And you can kind of weave that into your writing as well.
18:58
Emily: It doesn't.
18:59
Emily: Just because you're.
19:00
Emily: You want an immersive story, you want to create an immersive story, doesn't necessarily mean that your character has to like wax poetic about everything in their head if that's not in their character.
19:12
Rachel: Right, right.
19:13
Rachel: Right, exactly.
19:14
Rachel: Yeah.
19:16
Rachel: That's kind of where we ended up settling with this character for my one on one client was like, this character has probably not as much internal processing as maybe my characters do who never shut up.
19:27
Rachel: But like, this character does, however, search out a lot of dialogue, like a lot of conversation partners, because that's how they're going to think through what they need to think through.
19:38
Rachel: So, yeah, a characterization question, a narrator question, you know, the framework question.
19:45
Rachel: It's a. It's a lot of different angles to answer this and consider.
19:49
Rachel: But what I think a good.
19:52
Rachel: There were like two.
19:55
Rachel: Let's learn more about this.
19:56
Rachel: Things that I. I had talked about with my client or I had been thinking about.
19:59
Rachel: And like, the first one is pay attention to the books you're reading.
20:02
Rachel: How do the books you're reading do it?
20:02
Rachel: Like, and you can ask yourself, are they talking to someone or are they talking to themselves in their internal narration.
20:11
Rachel: And you'll be able to tell the difference if you pay attention to it, whether they're, you know, standing outside of time and telling a story or if they are in the scene, you know, experiencing as it goes.
20:22
Rachel: So paying attention to how the books, how other books do it, but also comparing to like comp titles, I think is always a good idea to like be well read in.
20:33
Rachel: In your genre to understand what works in the market.
20:37
Emily: Yeah. Because what I will say is if your readers like the people who are going to pick up your book, if they are not, if they are not used to being told a story, it's going to turn them off.
20:50
Emily: And so, you know, in certain genres that it's totally acceptable and even expected, but in some it's not.
20:57
Emily: And I think that throws people a lot if that's not what they're expecting from your type of a story.
21:03
Rachel: Yes. Cool. Any other thoughts on this one?
21:08
Emily: I think so.
21:08
Emily: It's a great question.
21:10
Rachel: Yeah, we had a really good discussion about it.
21:12
Rachel: And again, if you're thinking like, well, I don't know how to use character thoughts at all.
21:19
Rachel: We have kind of three show don't tell episodes that are episode 49, 50 and 51.
21:25
Rachel: And episodes 49 and episode 51 are both going to go into like, how to use the technique of internal processing as like a prose skill to show what your characters are thinking, feeling and doing.
21:43
Rachel: So go check those out.
21:45
Rachel: Yeah. Awesome.
21:46
Rachel: Cool.
21:48
Emily: Cool. If you want to build a successful, fulfilling and sustainable writing life that works for you, you've got to get on our email list.
21:54
Rachel: Sign up now to get our free email course, the Magic of Character Arcs.
21:57
Rachel: After seven days of email magic, you'll have the power to keep your read flipping pages all through the night.
22:02
Emily: Link in the show notes.
22:03
Emily: We'll see you there.