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"Habitual Gratitude" with Neal Plantinga · The Weight

• 0:00
  Eddie Rester: I'm Eddie Rester.
• 0:01
  Chris McAlilly: I'm Chris McAlilly. Welcome to The Weight.
• 0:04
  Chris McAlilly: Today we are with Cornelius Plantinga. He is senior research fellow at the Calvin Institute of Christian Worship. He's the president emeritus at Calvin Theological Seminary. And he's written a new book, and we're gonna talk about it today.
• 0:19
  Eddie Rester: The book is simply entitled "Gratitude." And it really is part of his life's understanding and his life's work. What does it mean to live faithfully? And part of living faithfully is to cultivate the virtue of gratitude.
• 0:33
  Chris McAlilly: And I'm so grateful that Eddie has such a hard time pronouncing his name.
• 0:37
  Eddie Rester: I can't. I just, it...
• 0:39
  Chris McAlilly: You'll hear it again. If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you will notice that there... Eddie is basically flawless. Except for one area.
• 0:50
  Eddie Rester: I was raised in a world that had basic names. And sometimes I just, it's hard.
• 0:55
  Chris McAlilly: Yes.
• 0:55
  Eddie Rester: But I'm grateful that Neal, our guest today, was nice, was kind after I dropped the ball trying to welcome him.
• 1:01
  Chris McAlilly: We coached Eddie up on Neal's last name.
• 1:09
  Eddie Rester: Within 10 seconds of when we pressed the record button.
• 1:11
  Chris McAlilly: He screwed it up. And so I'm grateful that Cody did not stop the recording so that you guys get to laugh at Eddie.
• 1:21
  Eddie Rester: What were you most grateful for, besides that, with the conversation today?
• 1:25
  Chris McAlilly: I want to be a person of gratitude. I struggle at times to stop long enough to actually pay attention and to express gratitude. I do think, you know, there are days where I get it right. But I I don't know, I look back and it's like, how did I pass through 10 years of raising kids without expressing more gratitude. And so then I kind of come away thinking this book is gonna give... It gives a framework. It gives a theological framework, a scientific framework, and just, you know, just hard spun wisdom that has come through the ages and through a long life that really help hopefully, I think motivate my intention. That's what I take away. What about
• 2:18
  Eddie Rester: Well, a lot of the books that we talk about on the you?
• 2:22
  Eddie Rester: podcast, sometimes they're dense and thick and deeply theological, and this one is deeply theological, but this one is easily engaged. And so I think that's one of the things I really liked about it was that I didn't have to fight my way through it. I could really...
• 2:37
  Eddie Rester: And almost he anticipates the next question that you're going to ask, as he writes.
• 2:45
  Eddie Rester: And so I hope you enjoy the conversation today. This is one of the books that I hope that if you're like, I've never purchased a book after y'all have talked about a book," this is one that I think would be great for you, Cornelius Plantinga.
• 3:01
  Chris McAlilly: You did it.
• 3:02
  Eddie Rester: "Gratitude."
• 3:03
  Chris McAlilly: I'm proud of you.
• 3:04
  Eddie Rester: So share this with someone that you're thankful for. Maybe write them a note, send them a text, but share the podcast. Let others know that you're enjoying it and invite others into the journey with us.
• 3:16
  Chris McAlilly: [INTRO] The truth is, the world is growing more angry, more bitter, and more cynical. People don't trust one another. And we feel disconnected.
• 3:27
  Eddie Rester: The way forward is not more tribalism. It's more curiosity that challenges what we believe, how we live, and how we treat one another. It's more conversation that inspires wisdom, healing, and hope.
• 3:40
  Chris McAlilly: So we launched The Weight podcast as a space to cultivate sacred conversations with a wide range of voices at the intersection of culture and theology, art and technology, science and mental health. And we want you to be a part of it.
• 3:55
  Eddie Rester: Join us each week for the next conversation on The Weight. [END INTRO] We're here today with Dr. Neal Plantinga. I know I didn't say that correctly.
• 4:07
  Chris McAlilly: [LAUGHTER] Do it right!
• 4:08
  Eddie Rester: We'll start over.
• 4:09
  Chris McAlilly: [LAUGHTER] No, we aren't.
• 4:09
  Eddie Rester: You're gonna start it.
• 4:10
  Chris McAlilly: No! We have to keep going. Everybody who ever has listened to this podcast knows that Eddie cannot pronounce anyone's name. I just want to apologize.
• 4:20
  Eddie Rester: Again. To more than one guest. You've had to
• 4:20
  Chris McAlilly: I just want to apologize, everybody, for Eddie apologize to more than one guest.
• 4:24
  Chris McAlilly: just in general, but particularly for his inability to get anybody's name right.
• 4:28
  Chris McAlilly: Would you offer your name for Eddie so that he gets it right?
• 4:37
  Neal Plantinga: Neal Plantinga.
• 4:39
  Chris McAlilly: Thank you.
• 4:40
  Eddie Rester: Thank you.
• 4:40
  Chris McAlilly: I am so grateful that, once again, we have an opportunity to bring this to light for Eddie. And the book that we're going to talk about today is on gratitude. And so I wish, perhaps Dr. Plantinga, if you would be willing to maybe just talk about what gave rise to the desired to write a book on such a topic.
• 5:03
  Neal Plantinga: Well, as a lifetime Bible reader, I couldn't miss the fact that there are lots of instances of thanksgiving in the Bible, and lots of injunctions to do it.
• 5:16
  Neal Plantinga: And, you know, we have them in the Psalms: "Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good." You have St. Paul, a number of times, saying things like, "and be thankful." "Sing with gratitude in your hearts to God.""Whatever you do or say, do it with thanksgiving to God through Jesus Christ." So I couldn't miss all that, that thanksgiving is our calling.
• 5:44
  Neal Plantinga: But then, some years ago, I became acquainted with the positive psychology movement and discovered that psychologists no longer wanted talk simply about mental diseases or disorders, you know, obsessive compulsive disorder, for example. And now they were going to study positive emotions: compassion, humility, gratitude. And what they said about gratitude is that it is the single best predictor of well being. A person who is grateful is going to do well. Their blood pressure will go down. They'll sleep better. Their heart rhythms will stabilize. So I got intrigued by the fact that something which is our solemn duty, to give thanks to God and to each other, is also indicative of well being, and promotes it.
• 6:45
  Chris McAlilly: One of the definitions that you offer, a formal definition of gratitude,"Gratitude is a glad sense of being gifted with something by someone and thus being indebted to the giver." How did you land on that definition?
• 7:03
  Neal Plantinga: Well, I knew that the heart of it is a benefit. My friend, Bob Roberts says that the logic of gratitude is that a benefactor provides a benefit to a beneficiary. And you need all three terms. So "a glad sense of having been gifted," there's the benefit,"by someone," there's the benefactor, "with something and therefore being obligated to the giver." Now, the obligation part is important. We all feel that if somebody gives us something, we owe them something back. At minimum, a thank you. But for much of the history of the English language, and certainly as recently as the 19th century, one way of saying thank you would be to say simply, "Much obliged." That shows the sense of obligation back to the benefactor.
• 8:10
  Chris McAlilly: I love the...
• 8:10
  Chris McAlilly: Sorry, I know that Eddie wants to jump in after he's already, you know, offered...
• 8:17
  Eddie Rester: I'm great grateful he's forgiven me. So.
• 8:19
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, thank you.
• 8:20
  Eddie Rester: I'm indebted.
• 8:21
  Chris McAlilly: I'm so grateful for your forgiveness for Eddie,
• 8:23
  Neal Plantinga: Yeah, well, it's fitting to thank somebody who and mercy. But one of the things that you say on this idea of obligation is that the traditional Book of Common Prayer in the Church of England states in the Great Thanksgiving for Eucharist, that "we thank God because it is meet to do so, fitting and right in our duty to do so. It is meet and right and our bounden duty that we should at all times and places give thanks unto thee." That's just a powerful idea. Maybe flesh that out just a bit more, if you don't mind.
• 9:00
  Neal Plantinga: has given you a gift. We see it in everyday life, that saying please, saying thank you, our social lubricants. Y ou know, at the bank had a store, somebody holds a door for you, and you naturally say thank you. In fact, the person wouldn't even notice unless you omitted it, then they would notice that you had omitted something that was fitting.
• 9:29
  Eddie Rester: And as you talk about being indebted, I think So it's appropriate to give thanks to someone who has gifted this is where, you know, I had to do a little thinking about you. It is right to do it. It would be mildly hostile not to do it. It would be for sure churlish. But it's appropriate, that, as I've read through that portion, of being a beneficiary it's fitting and it's right to do it. And therefore, because it's right to do it, it is our duty to do it. And that for me raises delightful irony that what is our bounden duty is also what promotes our well being.
• 10:17
  Eddie Rester: of a gift, because we're not good receivers a lot of times.
• 10:23
  Eddie Rester: When someone does something for us, when someone does more--they bring a meal after we've lost someone, or they give us an unexpected gift on our birthday or Christmas--part of our humanity doesn't want to just say thank you. It wants to, then, respond in kind or try to explain away why we needed the gift in the first place. I remember when one of my daughters was in the hospital for an extended time, becoming a receiver really was the hardest part of the whole process for
• 11:01
  Neal Plantinga: We can feel dependent, and my friend Scott, me.
• 11:10
  Neal Plantinga: who wrote a book on grace, and he says in the book that in the United States, most forms of dependence have a stigma attached. Who wants to be welfare dependent? Who wants to be dependent on the church deacons? What patriot would have his blood stirred by a declaration of dependence? Now we are independence people, and so it can be hard to be a receiver.
• 11:46
  Neal Plantinga: Robert Carroll has written, so far, four volumes and his magisterial biography of Lyndon Johnson. And he talks about Johnson early on as a teenager, having lived on a very prosperous ranch, but then his dad made some bad financial decisions, and they lost everything. And they had to move into a little house in town, and other people had to bring them meals, and he was humiliated by the meals.
• 12:17
  Chris McAlilly: What are some of the other inhibitors of gratitude that are common that you see in individuals?
• 12:28
  Neal Plantinga: Yeah, well, there are a number of things that can block our gratitude.
• 12:31
  Neal Plantinga: Some of them are perfectly innocent. If a person has clinical depression, they're not going to be readily grateful, or if they have an anxiety disorder, or a shame disorder.
• 12:45
  Neal Plantinga: Sometimes the attitude of the giver can block our gratitude.
• 12:51
  Neal Plantinga: The giver give something that's got obvious strings attached, or the giver tries to impress you with their generosity when they give you something. That can block us.
• 13:05
  Neal Plantinga: But some of our own attitudes can block us, too. We can, for example, think we are self sufficient. And if I have no needs, then nobody will ever gift me for something I need, and I won't be grateful. Or I can be entitled. I can feel as if I deserve every good thing I get. And if I deserved it, why give thanks for it? Some people are cynical about gifts. They mistrust the motives of the giver and are trying to figure out always what's really going on here. So cynicism. Apathy can also black gratitude, self sufficiency, entitlement, envy.
• 14:01
  Neal Plantinga: I may resent the fact that somebody has enough to give me something that I need. And I may feel, as Lyndon Johnson did,humiliated by it. So yeah, there are lots of ways, unfortunately, to block gratitude.
• 14:21
  Eddie Rester: Early in the book, you talk about the difference between occasionally feeling grateful, and a true grateful disposition. Could you flesh that out a little bit? What... I mean, you know, we can say can...
• 14:34
  Neal Plantinga: Gratitude can arise spontaneously, and often does. But a truly grateful person will have a habitual tendency to give thanks. They will have a light trigger for gratitude. Gratitude has become so much a part of them that it is a habit, a disposition. And because it's a constant disposition, it's part of their character. It's a character trait. So these are people who are readily grateful. And because they are, because they're in the habit of being thankful, they spot occasions for gratitude everywhere.
• 15:23
  Eddie Rester: I've got a couple of friends who live in that disposition. And I love it.
• 15:25
  Eddie Rester: Because sometimes when I've got that cynical bent, or I'm questioning something, they bring a reminder of gratitude to me. And I think that's one of the benefits, when someone has that disposition is that it's not just impacting them, it begins to impact others around them, as well.
• 15:50
  Neal Plantinga: And it can become contagious, wonderfully.
• 15:56
  Neal Plantinga: People who are with grateful people will tend to be grateful themselves.
• 16:01
  Eddie Rester: Yeah. So as you think about the cultivation of gratitude, obviously, that's something we don't come... Maybe we do come hardwired for gratitude. I'm not sure if we do or not. But...
• 16:13
  Chris McAlilly: No, I think this is the piece that I wanted to pick up on. Because I do think there's this sense of, in the biblical narrative, some of the biblical themes are such that...
• 16:22
  Chris McAlilly: I mean, I think it's interesting that you said, it's almost natural to do so, this sense that there's something about the order and structure of our social life, if rightly ordered, you know, in accordance with the purposes for which it was given by God, that would... A rightly ordered life would include gracious, kind of gratitude, in between of human relations. I do think that that that is a really fascinating concept to me. It's not just a good thing to do. But it would be kind of a rightly ordered set of relationships within a life that would be rightly ordered between God and other people. Is that kind of the theological position of gratitude in your moral imagination?
• 17:11
  Neal Plantinga: Yeah, in a rightly ordered life, gratitude is fitting and right and our bounden duty. So it's perfectly natural.
• 17:24
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, so it's perfectly natural. And also, it
• 17:25
  Neal Plantinga: You know, there are certain steps you can take has all of these psychological, emotional, and spiritual benefits associated with it as if maybe this is a good thing for us. And maybe there's a God and maybe the God cares for us.
• 17:41
  Neal Plantinga: And all of these things are actually true. You know, it's just a powerful idea to think about, the fittingness of this.
• 17:50
  Neal Plantinga: It's just, it's a really interesting concept to me.
• 17:57
  Neal Plantinga: to keep your car running well.
• 17:57
  Neal Plantinga: One of them is to change the oil regularly. And you have a manual for your car, that tells you how to keep it running well. The Bible is, in part, a manual for flourishing. Do this, and you will do well.
• 18:24
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, a manual for flourishing, that would include be generous. Kind of live your life in such a way that you're not hoarding everything to yourself, but get in this kind of inhale, exhale of receiving gift and offering gift. And that within the context of this gift economy, gratitude becomes one of those pieces that helps us stay in this kind of loving and almost joyful connection, both with God and others. And there is a section of the book where you kind of tease out the connections between gratitude and contentment, gratitude and joy, gratitude and generosity. I wonder if you could connect those dots for us?
• 19:12
  Neal Plantinga: Yeah. One of the things that graditude can do for me, if I have lost a loved one, is eventually to become a consolation. If, over time, my grief at the loss of a loved one is replaced by gratitude for having had that loved one in my life, my Gratitude will become my consolation. So that's one of the things gratitude can give me. Another is a sense of gladness. I'm glad to be in a world in which I receive wonderful gifts from God and from my loved ones and from my friends. And strong gladness is what we call joy. So, yes, consolation, joy, and generosity.
• 20:10
  Neal Plantinga: I think, over 10 years when I was president of Calvin Seminary and had to raise money, one of the things I heard most often from prospective donors was something like, "God has blessed us so richly. It would be really appropriate for us to try to bless others. So sure, of course, I'll give." So that was a wonderful thing to see. And I suppose that besides having lower blood pressure and better sleep, it's wonderful also to have consolation and joy, and a sense of contentment.
• 21:00
  Neal Plantinga: If I'm grateful, as... There's a famous saying, "In gratitude, literature." Gratitude makes what I have enough. And it's attributed to various people.
• 21:14
  Neal Plantinga: Nobody knows for sure who first said it. And sometimes it's attributed to anonymous. But gratitude makes what I have enough. Gratitude tends toward contentment.
• 21:31
  Eddie Rester: As you say that, I'm just thinking about the discontent that exists among us, right, right now in our country, just the discontent around politics, the discontent around the economy, the discontent around different things in motion. A lot of discontent is, if we're honest, stoked by people who call themselves Christians, people who call themselves followers. And it seems like church itself is in the business of implanting gratitude. You talked about that in the book as well. You talked about the place of worship as a central place for where we express gratitude. How does the church become a place that cultivates gratitude?
• 22:22
  Neal Plantinga: Well, in church, we are in an atmosphere in which we believe that God is present by God's Spirit, and that we are therefore in the presence of God, and in a prime position to thank God for all of God's gifts. And, of course, our prayers and worship are, at least partly to give thanks. And our sermons can call us to thanksgiving. If we preach on one of the hanksgiving texts, for example, or on God's generosity, it's natural for the sermon to call us to thanksgiving. If we participate in the Lord's Supper, we will offer thanks for the gifts of our savior's body and blood.
• 23:19
  Neal Plantinga: There are a number of places in worship in which we are called to give thanks, and actually do give thanks. And of course, in a good round of Christian preaching, some of that will center the mighty acts of God in our lives. Creation, return from exile, incarnation, atonement, resurrection, Pentecost. So rehearsing the mighty acts of God is a trigger for giving thanks.
• 23:51
  Eddie Rester: And you talk about the Passover and the Jewish use of Passover as a moment to claim that in a real way, around table in worship, the remembering of what God has done, the benefit for them. I wonder...
• 24:08
  Neal Plantinga: In the Passover... I'm sorry.
• 24:10
  Neal Plantinga: In the Passover liturgy, there is this wonderful
• 24:10
  Eddie Rester: No, go ahead. Go ahead.
• 24:14
  Eddie Rester: device called the Dayenu. So the Passover liturgy will say, "If you had brought us, simply brought us out of Egypt, Dayenu, it would have been enough. If you had split the Red Sea, only split the Red Sea, Dayenu, it would have been enough. If you had brought us through the Red Sea on dry ground, Dayenu, it wouldn't have been enough." On and on and on. The repetition of Dayenu stitching together all the sub parts of God's mighty act of Exodus. And that's a peculiar, in the positive sense, characteristic feature of the Passover liturgy.
• 25:00
  Chris McAlilly: Where can somebody find that liturgy? That is fascinating and beautiful.
• 25:02
  Chris McAlilly: Like, where would be a source for that?
• 25:07
  Neal Plantinga: I think I just Googled Passover liturgy because I had read someplace about the Dayenu. And I think I got a bunch of sites, I can't tell you which ones.
• 25:17
  Eddie Rester: It's on page 18 in the book.
• 25:19
  Chris McAlilly: It's on page 18 in the book. There you go.
• 25:21
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, one of the parts. You know, it's easy, I think, when there are big displays of blessing, power, goodness, help, and assistance in our lives, not just from God from but from others, to name gratitude, to be grateful. But what if you're in a place in life, where it's hard to define the benefit, to use the terminology from your definition of gratitude? How do we, how can someone maintain that grateful disposition, when it doesn't feel like there's much around them to be grateful for?
• 26:02
  Neal Plantinga: Well, I don't want to minimize the drag on our gratitude of bad circumstances in life, they can make us situationally depressed. And when we are depressed, it's really hard to give thanks. But Christians and Jews and generally wise people over the years have figured out that it could always be worse. There is always something in a situation that we can be grateful for, even if three quarters of the situation is something we reject or find... What do I want to say? You'll find dark, shadowy.
• 26:51
  Neal Plantinga: So, you know, I don't... It doesn't make me grateful, I don't like having to clean up after Thanksgiving dinner, but I am grateful that this means I was just surrounded by family and friends. I'm not grateful that I have to pay taxes next Monday. But that I owe taxes means I've got an income. And I'm grateful for that. I'm not grateful for having to clean gutters and shovel snow and the rest, but I am grateful to have a roof over my head. So there is something in situations that we can find to be grateful for. And that is a redeeming way to go through life.
• 27:39
  Chris McAlilly: There was a dimension of one of the chapters where you talk about savoring.
• 27:43
  Chris McAlilly: So this idea that gratitude, when offered and shared and practiced as a habit, it can create a virtuous cycle rather than a vicious cycle. And if you kind of keep that moving, then savoring becomes... It's a richness to life. And there's this really nice paragraph with Barbara Kingsolver that you offer: "Our Holiday Food splurge was a small crate tangerines, which we found ridiculously thrilling, after an eight month abstinence from citrus. Lily hugged each one to her chest before undressing it gently as a doll. Watching her do that as she sat cross legged on the floor one morning and pink pajamas with bliss lighting her cheeks, I thought, 'Lucky is the world to receive this grateful child.'" Oh, that's so good.
• 28:40
  Chris McAlilly: That is so good.
• 28:44
  Neal Plantinga: A beautiful paragraph.
• 28:45
  Chris McAlilly: Beautiful.
• 28:46
  Neal Plantinga: Yeah. Yeah, that chapter opens with an edition of, a version of a book called"Thanks A Thousand" by AJ Jacobs. And he tells in this book of being intrigued by his morning cup of coffee and decided that he wanted to find out how many people were involved in getting him a cup of coffee, handed over by a barista in his local coffee shop. And he estimated that it was many hundreds, perhaps a thousand people--people who had to grow the coffee beans, to harvest the coffee beans, to ship the beans, to grind the beans if they were being ground. People who had to supply fresh, good tasting water from the Catskills to New York City where he lived. All kinds of people with all kinds of pallets and forklifts and trucks and what have you involved in getting him his morning cup of coffee.
• 30:02
  Neal Plantinga: And he says that if you buy it in a specially designed cup, as his coffee shop provides, it's designed to let you savor the aroma of the coffee. You have to have your face close to the cup to sip. And he gives thanks for the people who designed that cup. He said, "It helps me every morning when I drink my cup of coffee, to savor it, to enjoy it, to spend time with it, to focus on it, and bring to mind all the people who had a hand in putting it into my hand."
• 30:44
  Chris McAlilly: So I want to move in a slightly more theological direction. So if gratitude towards people and general gratitude is a helpful practice and maybe something that everybody has access to.
• 30:58
  Chris McAlilly: Certainly everybody also has access to giving thanks to God, one of the things I've heard some wise spiritual directors or teachers of the faith say to me is that there's a distinction that can be made between thanksgiving and praise. This sense that you're thanking God for something that God has done, but praising God for who God is.
• 31:27
  Chris McAlilly: Is that the way you think of it?
• 31:27
  Chris McAlilly: Or do you think of it in a different way?
• 31:30
  Neal Plantinga: Well, that distinction is worth considering. I would point out, however, that in the Psalms, the words for gratitude and praise of God in connection with God's gifts, make praise and gratitude, at least where praise is about God's gifts, look pretty much the same. But yes, praise is strictly speaking, acclamation. It's making a fuss.
• 32:05
  Neal Plantinga: It's calling attention to and expressing the value of God and God's gifts and God's faithfulness. So it's a distinction worth thinking about. It's maybe not completely consistent across scripture.
• 32:25
  Chris McAlilly: Yeah, I think that sounds right. The way that I've heard it described is, you know, coming back into a human context, the first time my wife changed the diaper of one of our children, I came to say, thanks, thanks for changing the diaper.
• 32:42
  Chris McAlilly: But over the course of time, after diaper after diaper gets changed, after meal after meal gets served, day after day after day of consistent, faithful love that's offered to our kids, I can come to a point where I would say, "You are such a wonderful wife," and that, that's a different thing. It's a way of praising someone for who God is, or praising my wife for who she is, rather than for the actions done.
• 33:12
  Chris McAlilly: And I do think that if you can come to a place where you're praising, in addition to giving thanks, there is a sense that you can rely upon a person's character, and also maybe look forward. There is this kind of forward-looking dimension to I think, both gratitude and praise. You know, I think about Samuel, who says, "Thus far the Lord has helped," "Here I raise my Ebenezer. Thus far the Lord has helped us," and that becomes not just a backwards-looking,"I'm grateful for what has happened," but a forward-looking, you know, almost like it's something that deepens trust, and maybe even gives hope.
• 33:47
  Eddie Rester: I was gonna say, yeah, at that point it's become... Gratitude has led to a trust. And maybe that's also one
• 33:54
  Neal Plantinga: One of the most common expressions of hope in of the pieces of a life of gratitude, that it allows us to extend deeper and deeper trust to those around us who continue to gift us. They feel that...
• 34:11
  Neal Plantinga: the Bible is along this line.
• 34:11
  Neal Plantinga: "God has delivered us before. No doubt he will deliver us again."
• 34:20
  Chris McAlilly: Yes.
• 34:20
  Neal Plantinga: We can always hope. Yeah.
• 34:23
  Eddie Rester: One of the things that I loved about the book that was unexpected was you mentioned, you talk a lot about what gratitude does for us personally: blood pressure, contentment, those things. But then there's a section on the impact of gratitude on the life of the church. You talk about how gratitude promotes unity in the church. Nothing in the church defeats rivalry and cliques better than gratitude, mutual gratitude, Christ and mutual gratitude for each other.
• 34:57
  Eddie Rester: We know, Chris and I are part of a tribe that is splintering right now. We've seen United Methodist churches individually splinter. And as I read that, part of me was sad, because I sense that much of the pain has been a loss of gratitude for the other. How would you encourage churches in the practice of gratitude in a way that leads to unity?
• 35:27
  Neal Plantinga: I think a healthy church will call attention to the kindnesses and generosities of its members.
• 35:39
  Neal Plantinga: Some of you know that we had a funeral this past Thursday. I would like you to consider who made the food and served it for that reception after the funeral. And then name some of the people, maybe the name of the person who headed up the hospitality committee. We are all so grateful and if those people are in church to you for your generosity and kindness.
• 36:08
  Neal Plantinga: A healthy church lifts up members who do good things, and praises them gives, thanks for them. And that tends to foster a climate of appreciation, gratitude among members of the church. And I think that gratitude is, therefore, a ligament of church unity. It's one of the things that ties us together, that we are saying thank you to each other for goodness is rendered. It's a powerful virtue, and it has some wonderful beneficial effects in groups as well as individually.
• 36:50
  Eddie Rester: You know, as I think about that, think about the role of pastors modeling that, as you just said, thanking particular people. I think about there's a person in the church here in Oxford, Mississippi, who writes thank you notes consistently. No, not just texts, not just emails, but hand writes thank you notes to people. There was a member of the church in Jackson, older fella named Marcus, almost every week while I was there, I got a thank you note for, you know, they were different every week something else he noticed in the life of the church that he was grateful for.
• 37:32
  Neal Plantinga: When somebody does that kind of thing, it gets noticed. I have talked with very prosperous people who knew the first President Bush, and when he had been with them, and left, as his plane was ascending, he was writing thank you notes to all the people he'd just met. He was so inclined to do it, that somebody claimed to have gotten a thank you note from him for their thank you note.
• 38:08
  Eddie Rester: There's a man that I know that, whenever I write him a thank you note, I get a thank you note back.
• 38:16
  Neal Plantinga: There you go.
• 38:17
  Eddie Rester: It's amazing.
• 38:18
  Neal Plantinga: As many rounds as you'd like.
• 38:20
  Eddie Rester: If I wrote him a thank you note for the thank you note, I'd get another one. He not going to be out done. And what a gift to be thankful for being thanked. It's usually not just to thank you for... It's usually a note about something... Anyway, I...
• 38:39
  Neal Plantinga: But you can tell. You can tell from this, why gratitude is a ligament of unity. Because people not only love gifts, they love to be thanked for gifts. And others love it that they love to be thanked for gifts, so that it tends to go round and round.
• 39:01
  Eddie Rester: Well, and if you can name to someone how they have gifted you--and this goes for families to ,you know, not just churches, but families, friendships, friendship groups.
• 39:12
  Eddie Rester: I just think that when you're able to name something that someone's done for you to them, there's something there now ensconced in memory, in reality, that when the thing comes up, that would try to divide you, there's a counterweight that is pre-existent to that.
• 39:34
  Neal Plantinga: Right. And if you are specific in your thanks, what it was exactly that you found so delightful about somebody's gift to you, then they know as well that your thanks is not routine.
• 39:47
  Eddie Rester: Right.
• 39:48
  Neal Plantinga: It's customized.
• 39:51
  Chris McAlilly: What are your practices of gratitude?
• 39:54
  Neal Plantinga: Well, I have a gratitude journal where I list at the end of the day, or close to the end of the day, at least six things that I found especially wonderful that day. I also try really hard to be specific in my thanks to God. I like table prayers, for example, that specify which foods on the table we are going to enjoy. I think it happens oftener that I wish that I have to argue myself into being grateful. But I do.
• 40:39
  Neal Plantinga: And I have had to practice from time to time pretending to be grateful till I am. And those things, while they have not been, you know, 100% successful, have certainly been more successful than not.
• 40:57
  Eddie Rester: Say a little bit more about the arguing yourself into gratitude. I think that's an important habit for us at times.
• 41:06
  Neal Plantinga: I mean, what if--I think I give an example of something like this in the book--but what if you have a person in your firm, who is super talented and outranks you and is better paid than you, and you have a tendency to resent this person. You have a tendency to envy this person. You might argue with yourself and say,"You dimwit. This woman is earning you money. She's earning our firm money. And if you keep on with your sour attitude toward her, she's going to leave, and she should." You argue with yourself to point out that your ingratitude is not only unbefitting, but it could have very deleterious effects on your professional life.
• 41:56
  Eddie Rester: Yeah, I liked that section of the book, because I get, you know, there's so many times where, whether it's resentment or my own greed, or whatever it is, that, yeah, I need that moment of just fighting with myself to bring myself back to gratitude. I thought that was extremely helpful.
• 42:15
  Chris McAlilly: And I find myself just wanting to distribute this, you know. I think about... I just think about how important the habit is. And I think about, my oldest child is now 12 and my youngest child is sick, so more and more often, I'm finding myself in conversation with young parents and people that are at the very beginning. And you could just tell these people that I'm interacting with are in the survival mode. And what I don't think that I took enough time, I know that I didn't, you know, over the first five years of my children's life, to simply pause and be grateful. I don't know, wisdom is wasted, you know. It would be really nice to have, I don't know... It's so difficult, I feel like, when you're just in survival mode, to maintain that posture. And it's so easy to find yourself in a vicious cycle of work and no rest and now somebody's screaming, and now somebody needs something from you again, and then you find yourself, I mean, far off the path of gratitude.
• 43:37
  Chris McAlilly: And I do think this conversation for me has been a bit of a reset. And it's so helpful to have, you know, a book and some ideas that have been collected together to express both some of the theological truth, but also the deep wisdom and science behind it, to just kind of deepen the intention, and hopefully, the practice for me personally. So I'm very grateful for this book.
• 44:09
  Neal Plantinga: Thank you. I'm so glad to have your good words.
• 44:13
  Eddie Rester: One of the things that in the book I noticed was almost a call to confession, naming our own brokenness and naming our own failings, naming our own sin, so that we can be clear about what we receive, the grace and the goodness of God that we receive.
• 44:33
  Neal Plantinga: Yeah, you know, whatever else sin is, it is primarily a spoiler. So my entitlement spoils my gratitude.
• 44:50
  Neal Plantinga: My cynicism spoils my gratitude.
• 44:50
  Neal Plantinga: Sin spoils good things. And it's important to call it out for that. And to assure people that your call to lay down sin isn't arbitrary. You're hurting your own life. You're grieving God, you're alarming your neighbors, but you're also hurting your own life. "Sin," said Augustine, "is a form of self abuse."
• 45:23
  Chris McAlilly: I wonder, you know, one of the things over the course of our two conversations that I am so grateful for in conversation with you is just that you have a depth of spiritual wisdom. I can tell that you're a person of prayer.
• 45:39
  Chris McAlilly: I wonder, I might take a risk in asking, if you wouldn't, iendn the conversation today, we're nearing the end of the day. And I wonder if you wouldn't mind praying a prayer of gratitude for this particular day, you know, for those who may be listening to kind of lead us into a time of prayer. Is that something that you would be willing to do?
• 46:03
  Neal Plantinga: Yes.
• 46:04
  Chris McAlilly: Thank you. And maybe we can just end here, with a prayer of gratitude. That would be amazing.
• 46:10
  Neal Plantinga: All right. Let us pray to God. Gracious God, you are the one who has spread out all the expanse of the heavens, dug the depths of lakes and seas. You are the one who has imagined worlds and then, by your powerful hand, brought them into being. You are august and supreme beyond all of our thinking. And yet, you're as close as our own beating heart.
• 46:41
  Neal Plantinga: We give you thanks for your goodness, for your greatness, for the ways in which your gifts find us every day, and lodge themselves in our lives and help us thrive. You make our lives not only possible, but also interesting and flourishing.
• 47:03
  Neal Plantinga: Thank you for the great work of Your Son Jesus Christ, for his atoning death and resurrection.
• 47:09
  Neal Plantinga: Thank you for the Holy Spirit and the Church, mighty across the ages. We give you thanks, O God, for all your goodness, and ask you in turn to inspire our gratitude today and always. In Jesus's Holy Name. Amen.
• 47:34
  Eddie Rester: [OUTRO] Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed the podcast, the best way to help us is to like, subscribe, or leave a review.
• 47:40
  Chris McAlilly: If you would like to support this word financially or if you have an idea for a future guest, you can go to theweightpodcast.com. [END OUTRO]