Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Bucks Co. murders update & Will OJ Simpson go free?

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Bucks Co. murders update & Will OJ Simpson go free? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
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Speaker 1: Channel one thirty two. A shocking confession in the case
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Speaker 1: of the four missing men in Bucks County. Cosmo DeNardo
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Speaker 1: says he kills them all. What do you have to
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Speaker 1: say anything? That the four men have been missing since
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Speaker 1: last week? Cosmo Denardo's defense attorney says that his client
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Speaker 1: admitted his guilt and told investigators where they can find
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Speaker 1: the bodies. Mr DeNardo confessed to the district Attorney. The
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Speaker 1: d A promised him the death penalty would be off
0:40
Speaker 1: the table despite confessing the killing and burning the bodies
0:43
Speaker 1: of four young men. Did he act alone? We're hearing
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Speaker 1: this morning there is a second person of interest. The
0:52
Speaker 1: facts become even murkier as we continue to learn about
0:58
Speaker 1: the disappearance and likely deaths of four young Bucks County boys.
1:05
Speaker 1: As I said, scrubbed in Sunshine, one on the Dean's
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Speaker 1: list at Loyola, He and three other friends go missing,
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Speaker 1: and now we learn likely dead at the hands of
1:20
Speaker 1: a pot dealing schizophrenic. Now we understand that the four
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Speaker 1: boys were killed, the killer using a pig roaster to
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Speaker 1: burn the bodies. That's the latest out of Bucks County.
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Speaker 1: I mean it. See Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank
1:40
Speaker 1: you for being with us. We are also learning that
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Speaker 1: the local district attorney has agreed to take the death
1:47
Speaker 1: penalty off the table. This as one of the boys
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Speaker 1: sweet hearts, rides a heart breaking goodbye to him, saying
2:00
Speaker 1: You'll never know how much I love you. And could
2:04
Speaker 1: it be true? You can kill four people, put their
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Speaker 1: bodies in a pig roaster right over them while they're
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Speaker 1: still alive with a backho and you don't get the
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Speaker 1: death penalty. You don't even try for the death penalty.
2:19
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like I'm Alice in Wonderland.
2:21
Speaker 1: Something's upside down. Straight out to Jamie Stover with w
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Speaker 1: f m z t V. Jamie, first of all, what
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Speaker 1: do we know? How did a pig roaster a pig
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Speaker 1: p i g roaster? What is that and what does
2:38
Speaker 1: that have to do with the death of these young boys.
2:40
Speaker 1: So the pig roaster is apparently what the man you're
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Speaker 1: talking about, Cosmo di Narno, told investigators is what he
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Speaker 1: used to try to get rid of the body bodies
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Speaker 1: after he confessed to killing these men. It was apparently
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Speaker 1: an oil well type of device on their property that
3:02
Speaker 1: they turned into a cooker and and then burned the
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Speaker 1: bodies in this what he called a pig roaster. Okay.
3:09
Speaker 1: Also to Jamie stble W fm z TV, who is
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Speaker 1: the second killer? Is it a cousin of Cosmo Denordo?
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Speaker 1: So that is that is the term that he is
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Speaker 1: using to describe the co conspirator in this. He called
3:24
Speaker 1: him a cousin. What's interesting though, is we're still not
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Speaker 1: really entirely sure if they're actually family. Speaking to one
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Speaker 1: of the prosecutors on the case on Friday, said that
3:32
Speaker 1: they didn't know if that was an art term they
3:35
Speaker 1: were using to describe their relationship. Um, but they did
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Speaker 1: put it in the court documents. So that is what
3:41
Speaker 1: they're referring. Um to Shawn Kratz as as his partner
3:46
Speaker 1: in crime and his uh, his consin We are told
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Speaker 1: to Joe's Goot Morgan, death investigator and instructor at Jacksonville
3:52
Speaker 1: State University. We understand that evening he meets up with
3:56
Speaker 1: Mayo and Sturgis, DiNardo shoots Ao. Sturge just then, seeing
4:02
Speaker 1: what's going down, tries to run for it. DeNardo shoots
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Speaker 1: him until he runs out of ammunition. This is like
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Speaker 1: he thinks he's in a movie. Then he drives over Mayo,
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Speaker 1: who's likely still alive, with a back hou. We understand
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Speaker 1: he basically crushes Mayo with the backhoe, then uses that
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Speaker 1: same backh to pick up the bodies and carry them
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Speaker 1: and drop them into the so called pig roaster, add
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Speaker 1: gasoline and set it on fire there, then dumped twelve
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Speaker 1: feet down into a common grave. The remains of Patrick
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Speaker 1: were recovered from a separate location. That's what we know
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Speaker 1: right now. Joseph Scott Morgan, what what do you make
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Speaker 1: of that account? I'm kind of taking a back Let's
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Speaker 1: go back to what you said in the beginning. Nancy,
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Speaker 1: you know the death penalty is off the table at
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Speaker 1: this point, are you kidding me? I mean, based upon
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Speaker 1: your background and what you know about prosecuting cases like this,
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Speaker 1: you're talking about serious aggravating circumstances here that you know
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Speaker 1: just it's smacks of death penalty. Because if this kid
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Speaker 1: was still alive and he runs over him with a
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Speaker 1: bacco um, that's a torturous, torturous death that's gonna come
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Speaker 1: out in the pathology findings. Um, we'll find out it's
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Speaker 1: these crushing injuries that he has if in fact, he
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Speaker 1: does have them, if there is some type of anti
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Speaker 1: mortem event, that is, was he crushed while he was
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Speaker 1: still alive, did he suffer And again that's an aggravating circumstance.
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Speaker 1: Now he takes these bodies, piles them into this pig
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Speaker 1: roaster together, sets the bodies on fire. Now, the upside
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Speaker 1: with this is that the bodies are contained in this area.
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Speaker 1: So from an evidentially standpoint, you have them all together. Uh,
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Speaker 1: we'll be able to trace the celerant if he did
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Speaker 1: use some which I can only imagine that he did,
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Speaker 1: back to a location where he purchased that. The ideas
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Speaker 1: to try to put everything into his hand, into the
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Speaker 1: hands of his accomplice as well, the bullets, if they're
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Speaker 1: still in the bodies, which I would imagine they probably
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Speaker 1: will be, will be contained in this area as well.
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Speaker 1: I can't imagine. These bodies are too far gone at
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Speaker 1: this point. But everything is contained and so that's kind
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Speaker 1: of a saving grace. But this is just a horrific
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Speaker 1: set of circumstances. Yeah, Jamie Stover w f m Z TV.
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Speaker 1: What about the other bodies, So three of the bodies
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Speaker 1: were in that pig roaster, that we talked about earlier,
6:40
Speaker 1: and then kind of going back to the the death
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Speaker 1: penaltying off the off the table. Uh. The district attorney
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Speaker 1: said that because of that confession, because of that agreement
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Speaker 1: and deal that he need with Cosmo DeNardo, they were
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Speaker 1: able to find the fourth body, which was if you
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Speaker 1: look at the timeline and how they're laying this out
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Speaker 1: in records, would be the first victim who would have
7:03
Speaker 1: showed up to Donardo's family farm on a Wednesday, two
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Speaker 1: days before the other men went missing. And they said
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Speaker 1: they would have never been able to find that body
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Speaker 1: had it not been for the confession that they got
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Speaker 1: straight from Cosbo Tonardo. In fact, in one of his
7:20
Speaker 1: news conferences, the district attorney said that when they were
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Speaker 1: going to this other location on the property where they
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Speaker 1: eventually found his body, that he felt sick because of
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Speaker 1: how far away it was from these other three men
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Speaker 1: um that they had discovered in the ground. So it's
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Speaker 1: the d a's belief then, and I'm paraphrasing, he would
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Speaker 1: never have found the fourth victim's body had he not
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Speaker 1: cut the deal. Jamie correct. That's yes, that's that's essentially
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Speaker 1: what he said in his news conference after this all
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Speaker 1: came to light last week. Well, this is my concern,
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Speaker 1: I'll tell you right now, just got Morgan. We are
8:00
Speaker 1: to see them dragging the victims through the mud, trying
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Speaker 1: to claim right or wrong that they were buying the
8:08
Speaker 1: boys were buying pot, all right, That has nothing to
8:12
Speaker 1: do with the fact that they were murdered. That's what
8:16
Speaker 1: I'm concerned about. A mass murder and now trying to
8:21
Speaker 1: sling mud and the victims. I don't like it. Number
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Speaker 1: one and number two, I see this shaping up as
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Speaker 1: a mental defense somewhere along the line. I guarantee you
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Speaker 1: DeNardo is not gonna wanted to go down for life
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Speaker 1: behind bars. And then you got the cousin. What are
8:43
Speaker 1: we gonna do with him? Give him twenty and let
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Speaker 1: him walk out in ten years. Uh. I don't like
8:48
Speaker 1: where this is heading at all. All the media is
8:52
Speaker 1: calling him schizophrenic. What about the fact he's got the
8:55
Speaker 1: wherewithal to sell pot, to meet up with people to
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Speaker 1: sell pot at him. He has a history with the
9:03
Speaker 1: law thirty as they say, euphemistically, brushes with the law,
9:09
Speaker 1: no arrests. I mean, if he can lie, kill and
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Speaker 1: hide a body, I don't think he's legally insane. Let's
9:17
Speaker 1: think about this. This is higher level thinking that's going
9:19
Speaker 1: on here, Nancy. Uh, this is not like this is
9:22
Speaker 1: These are not the actions of somebody that is out
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Speaker 1: of control of their faculties. Here, you've got a person
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Speaker 1: that has thought this out to drag these people out here,
9:33
Speaker 1: attract them out here, and then kill each one of
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Speaker 1: these people. And not only that, he went to great
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Speaker 1: links in order to do this. He dug a twelve
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Speaker 1: ft deep ditch. Uh, he entered into a uh into
9:47
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know whatever what else to call
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Speaker 1: it other than a conspiracy with this other person to
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Speaker 1: facilitate their deaths. Uh, put them into this so called
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Speaker 1: pig roaster, then try to dispose the bodies basically setting
10:00
Speaker 1: them on fire and then burying them on top of it.
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Speaker 1: And in addition to that, they showed up with weapons
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Speaker 1: to this thing. This is not something that was just
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Speaker 1: done kind of hair hair scare them or shot from
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Speaker 1: the hip. This is something that required thought and higher
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Speaker 1: level thinking. I think that this is gonna be a
10:16
Speaker 1: real hard sell if you're if if if the pross
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Speaker 1: Earth that defense is looking to paint this guy as
10:22
Speaker 1: a complete lunatic. Well, what about the co defendant Kratz,
10:27
Speaker 1: What about him, Jamie, what is he looking at? Because
10:30
Speaker 1: it's my understanding, Uh, he DiNardo conspired with Crats to
10:36
Speaker 1: rob pinocchi are O, and then Crats is the one
10:41
Speaker 1: that actually shot pinocchi are O. So Cosmo DeNardo is
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Speaker 1: painting that shooting and only that one of the of
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Speaker 1: the four killings directly on his cousin, while his cousin, uh,
10:55
Speaker 1: you know, according to the court documents, while his cousin
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Speaker 1: does say that he was there when three of these
11:02
Speaker 1: killings took place and was aware of the of the burial,
11:06
Speaker 1: he does not step up and take ownership for actually
11:10
Speaker 1: doing the killing. Um. So I think moving forward, that's
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Speaker 1: going to be obviously a huge descripancy and it will
11:16
Speaker 1: be interesting to see how that plays in court on
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Speaker 1: on on whether or not they actually can can tie
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Speaker 1: it the killings to uh, any one of the specific
11:26
Speaker 1: of the of the specific what Jamie, You're right, because
11:29
Speaker 1: they're pointing the fingers at each other. But the reality
11:32
Speaker 1: is it doesn't matter. It's one for all and all
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Speaker 1: for one under the law. Even if DeNardo had shot
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Speaker 1: them all, if Kritz had conspired for this to go down,
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Speaker 1: and even didn't intend to shooting to occur. It was
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Speaker 1: the commission of a felony and a death occurred. So
11:49
Speaker 1: there you have it, and Chrits is gonna be hard
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Speaker 1: pressed to say he didn't know what was going on.
11:54
Speaker 1: I mean, Joe's got Morgan, you're the death investigator. After
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Speaker 1: the back code attack, then we hear that the two
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Speaker 1: DiNardo and his cousin doused the bodies of these innocent boys,
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Speaker 1: doused the boys inside a pig roaster with gasoline and
12:18
Speaker 1: try to burn the bodies of That's highly likely the
12:21
Speaker 1: bodies were burned. That's really hard to do, to burn
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Speaker 1: a human body beyond identification. Joe Scott, it's very very difficult. Nancy,
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Speaker 1: and a lot of people that have never been around
12:34
Speaker 1: uh cremines as we refer to them, and having burned bodies. Uh,
12:39
Speaker 1: it takes an extended period of time. It takes a
12:42
Speaker 1: steady heat source in order to facilitate this. That is
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Speaker 1: UH in some of these cases that I've worked in
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Speaker 1: both New Orleans and Atlanta over the course of my career. UH.
12:51
Speaker 1: If people try to get rid of bodies with fire,
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Speaker 1: it has to be a sustained fire. That is an
12:56
Speaker 1: area where you can burn the body for sometimes up
12:59
Speaker 1: to forty eight hours extended where everything is gone uh
13:04
Speaker 1: and in intense heat. Uh. These bodies will not be
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Speaker 1: completely destroyed. However, however, they will be destroyed to the
13:12
Speaker 1: point where they're unrecognizable except visa v probably dental records.
13:17
Speaker 1: I would imagine and quite possible not believe this. You've
13:22
Speaker 1: got an honor student at Loyola. You've got one of
13:26
Speaker 1: these kids that likes to sit around the house and
13:28
Speaker 1: play the guitar and his family's home. They're dead, They're shot,
13:33
Speaker 1: they're run down with a back code. They're daubs with
13:36
Speaker 1: gasoline and try to burn them. Their remains in a
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Speaker 1: pig roaster and buried on a corn farm. And they're
13:44
Speaker 1: not getting the death penalty. I mean, I can't even
13:48
Speaker 1: imagine it. I mean, Joe scot, you know how much
13:52
Speaker 1: you love your son. You think these parents didn't love
13:55
Speaker 1: their boys just as much as you and I do? Oh,
13:59
Speaker 1: dear Lord, and have and these boys your boy just
14:02
Speaker 1: turned sixteen, right, these are just two years older than him.
14:06
Speaker 1: I know, it's heartbreaking thing about it. Yeah, I mean,
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Speaker 1: I've been I've been working on this case the entire
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Speaker 1: week listening to all of these stories and every little
14:13
Speaker 1: piece that comes out, it just absolutely drives me to
14:16
Speaker 1: tears even further. And where we're Denardo's parents, Why is
14:21
Speaker 1: he out with a gun for Pete's sake? And why
14:25
Speaker 1: why does he have thirty thirty so called brushes with
14:28
Speaker 1: the law over this period of time? Has anyone tried
14:31
Speaker 1: to interdict this guy over the period of time? What
14:34
Speaker 1: I had heard that money, Yeah, it is money, and
14:39
Speaker 1: and he has been pushed down the line and shuffled
14:41
Speaker 1: off to other people over the period of time. And
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Speaker 1: I have to say this is a failure on the
14:46
Speaker 1: part of the mental health system in my estimation. If
14:49
Speaker 1: the sty hey, hey hey, before you start taking a
14:52
Speaker 1: swing in the mental health system, the mental health system
14:55
Speaker 1: did not kill these four boys, all right, DeNardo did
14:59
Speaker 1: and his inky cousin craps. So they're going down. But
15:04
Speaker 1: no matter what they do, they're not going to get
15:06
Speaker 1: the death penalty. Jamie Stover or w f m Z TV,
15:11
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator and instructor at Jacksonville State University,
15:16
Speaker 1: thank you for bringing us the latest out of Bucks
15:19
Speaker 1: County to oxygen the new network for crying. My name
15:23
Speaker 1: is Kelly Sigler. I was a prosecutor for over twenty years.
15:26
Speaker 1: The creator of Law and Order comes to hit true
15:28
Speaker 1: crime series called Justice. There are so many cold cases
15:32
Speaker 1: out there that still need to be solved. Every Saturday
15:34
Speaker 1: followed Kelly, and she takes real cases from cold to close.
15:37
Speaker 1: But you will always see on called Justice is real
15:40
Speaker 1: to get the guilty person put away. There's not a
15:43
Speaker 1: better feeding in the whole world if you're a law
15:44
Speaker 1: enforcement Called Justice returns to July eight seven, Central and Oxygen,
15:48
Speaker 1: the new network for crime. We now had across the
15:58
Speaker 1: country where in just a few days, actually seventy two
16:02
Speaker 1: hours from now, a double killer could walk free. Repeat,
16:10
Speaker 1: a double killer could walk free. The two victims were
16:16
Speaker 1: found on a bloody crime scene. The female victim head
16:23
Speaker 1: remained on her body only by the thin skin on
16:30
Speaker 1: the back of her spine. She was, by all intents
16:35
Speaker 1: and purposes, decapitated in her driveway, lying there and a
16:41
Speaker 1: little black dress in a pool of blood. Her friend,
16:46
Speaker 1: a young man with his life before him, also brutally
16:51
Speaker 1: stabbed dead. But the killer walked free. Of course, you
16:56
Speaker 1: know by now I'm referring to or inenthal James Simpson,
17:02
Speaker 1: who walked free on a double murder of Nicole Brown
17:08
Speaker 1: and Ron Goldman. For most of the country, there's never
17:12
Speaker 1: been any doubt that Simpson committed double murder, and it
17:16
Speaker 1: was only many years later when, again, thinking he was
17:20
Speaker 1: above the law, goes in busts into a location where
17:25
Speaker 1: sports memorabilia is being sold, with a gang of thugs
17:30
Speaker 1: with him his flunkeys, guns the works and takes away memorabilia.
17:36
Speaker 1: He insists as he is well, he went down for that,
17:40
Speaker 1: and he's been sitting and love like see I ever since.
17:44
Speaker 1: But that may all change in seventy two hours this Wednesday.
17:49
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, this Wednesday, Arenthal James Simpson up for parole
17:56
Speaker 1: and joining me. In addition to, for instance, instructor at
18:00
Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan is a
18:05
Speaker 1: special guest joining us. Cheryl Kane, the author of a
18:09
Speaker 1: hot new book on the subject O j. Simpson The Killer,
18:13
Speaker 1: a minute by minute account of the homicides of Nicole Brown,
18:17
Speaker 1: Simpson and Ron Goldman, available on Amazon. You know, I'm
18:25
Speaker 1: I'm completely fascinated, Cheryl Kane. A thank you for being
18:29
Speaker 1: with us, but be for the way you detail the
18:33
Speaker 1: hours immediately following that bloody double homicide till Simpson makes
18:39
Speaker 1: it to his alibi where he claims he's flying out
18:42
Speaker 1: of town that night. Why did you feel compelled to
18:47
Speaker 1: write this book? Well, we were. This is all about
18:50
Speaker 1: the upcoming parole hearing. We're hoping this book will keep O. J.
18:54
Speaker 1: Simpson and Jail. I was so impressed with Detective Pembrooks
18:58
Speaker 1: four hundred plus age manuscript that he did independently um
19:06
Speaker 1: over the course of years. I put everything on hold
19:09
Speaker 1: to complete this book. It's about the night of the murders.
19:12
Speaker 1: What happened in those three hours Cheryl Ron Goldman and
19:16
Speaker 1: Nicole Brand Simpson were brutally murdered by one person. O. J. Simpson.
19:21
Speaker 1: If I could read a page, page eighty five, this
19:25
Speaker 1: is chilling. Lying on the sidewalk, he could feel his
19:29
Speaker 1: own loss of blood. He moved his left hand back
19:33
Speaker 1: and forth in acute pain and a feudal attempt to
19:37
Speaker 1: keep going long enough to find help. His fingers pushed
19:41
Speaker 1: the pool of blood from his neck to the top
19:44
Speaker 1: of his head and back alongside his neck again. His
19:48
Speaker 1: blood formed the silhouette of his face on the sidewalk
19:53
Speaker 1: ten thirty five pm, ron Goldman again desperately tried to
19:58
Speaker 1: struggle to his feet. He lost his balance and fell
20:02
Speaker 1: over to the right side of the sidewalk. He was
20:05
Speaker 1: now lying on the right side of his face, with
20:08
Speaker 1: the blood still flowing from the knife wound on the
20:12
Speaker 1: left side of his neck, leaving a twelve inch stream
20:15
Speaker 1: of blood now running down the sidewalk. He fought to
20:20
Speaker 1: push his trembling body up to his hands and knees.
20:24
Speaker 1: Once in the kneeling position. On his knees, he grabbed
20:28
Speaker 1: the left side of his neck with his right hand,
20:31
Speaker 1: trying to slow the brute bleeding. He then became aware
20:35
Speaker 1: of Nicoll's dog barking loudly at the intersection of Dorothy
20:39
Speaker 1: and Bundy. Instead of crawling over to the large palm
20:43
Speaker 1: tree to support his efforts to get to his feet,
20:47
Speaker 1: Ron Goldman leaned toward the Lily of the Valley the
20:50
Speaker 1: nile plants, now ready to stagger down the sidewalk to
20:54
Speaker 1: Nicoll's dog. Still holding the left side of his neck
20:58
Speaker 1: with his right hand, he lifted his right foot off
21:02
Speaker 1: the ground and planted it on the sidewalk by the
21:04
Speaker 1: Lily of the nile plants. Hoping to stagger down the
21:08
Speaker 1: sidewalk towards the dog. He tried to steady himself in
21:12
Speaker 1: a kneeling position. Before he got to his feet, a
21:16
Speaker 1: large drop of this blood dripped between his fingers and
21:20
Speaker 1: landed on the sidewalk. The bleeding continued, leaving several large
21:25
Speaker 1: drops of run Goldman's blood on the sidewalk by the
21:28
Speaker 1: lily of the nile plant. I don't know if I
21:30
Speaker 1: can even take it, Cheryl to the thinking imagining Ron
21:36
Speaker 1: Goldman trying to stop the bleeding in his neck. I mean,
21:41
Speaker 1: how severe We know, Joe Scott Morgan that Simpson nearly
21:47
Speaker 1: other than the skin at the back of her neck,
21:49
Speaker 1: cut the head off of his wife, the mother of
21:53
Speaker 1: his children, Nicole Brown. But what was the major injury
21:59
Speaker 1: to Ron Goldman. His wounds were not as immediate as
22:04
Speaker 1: as Nicole's were. You know, Nicole was stabbed multiple times
22:08
Speaker 1: in the chest, obviously in her neck and uh and
22:12
Speaker 1: uh not just stabbed in the neck, but her throat
22:16
Speaker 1: was slashed uh down to the point where it went
22:18
Speaker 1: through all of the soft tissue. As you've you know,
22:21
Speaker 1: already pointed out with Ron's he had he had fatal wounds,
22:26
Speaker 1: but they weren't immediately fatal, and so he lingered for
22:30
Speaker 1: a time. So the picture that she is that has
22:33
Speaker 1: like Cheryl is saying, he actually tried to walk. So Cheryl,
22:39
Speaker 1: then Ron Goldman sustained to his neck was the one
22:44
Speaker 1: he was trying to staunch the flow of blood from right. Yeah,
22:48
Speaker 1: he was trying to apply pressure to it more than
22:50
Speaker 1: likely to try to stem this flow. That's that's you
22:53
Speaker 1: know that, that's just you know, eking the life out
22:56
Speaker 1: of his body, very very slow. To Cheryl Kane, who
22:58
Speaker 1: has written this book J. Simpson The Killer, minute by
23:01
Speaker 1: minute account of the homicides of Nicole Brown Simpson and
23:05
Speaker 1: Ron Goldman. Cheryl, who to whom did you send the manuscript?
23:12
Speaker 1: We sent copies of it to O. J. Simpson and jail.
23:16
Speaker 1: We we sent we have inside information. He went to
23:20
Speaker 1: zerk when he received it. We sent copies to the
23:23
Speaker 1: head ward and tell me this, How are we going
23:27
Speaker 1: to get around the fact, Cheryl, that he's not in
23:31
Speaker 1: jail for the double murders. He's in jail for armed robbery.
23:36
Speaker 1: How much longer can they keep him? I now, but
23:40
Speaker 1: this monster should never be released, and I will stuck
23:43
Speaker 1: him with this book. Should he get out, I will
23:46
Speaker 1: go to every public appearance puts on in this area,
23:51
Speaker 1: and I will bring the book with me. He's said
23:54
Speaker 1: an explosion waiting to happen. This guy walked free from
23:59
Speaker 1: a destined but the civil case proved he did it.
24:02
Speaker 1: Let me tell you something that happened. Alan Duke also
24:04
Speaker 1: with us Alan. After the verdict, I was still prosecuting
24:11
Speaker 1: in City of Atlanta homicide felony prosecutor, and my old
24:16
Speaker 1: buddy Haraldo at that time had a day show, kind
24:20
Speaker 1: of a talk show with studio audience, and he asked
24:23
Speaker 1: me what I fly to New York, and having grown
24:27
Speaker 1: up grown up in the middle of soy bean fields
24:30
Speaker 1: and tall pine trees, I wanted to see what New
24:33
Speaker 1: York was, and so I said sure, and I flew
24:36
Speaker 1: up there. Well. I appeared on a show with three
24:42
Speaker 1: of the lady Gerards that were on the O. J.
24:45
Speaker 1: Simpson murder trial. I think it was three, it was
24:48
Speaker 1: at least three or more, and they had written a
24:50
Speaker 1: book about it, and I tried to be respectful as
24:54
Speaker 1: as best as I could during it, and I would
24:58
Speaker 1: try to confront them with the evidence that in my
25:00
Speaker 1: of mine was just damning. It's like nothing I said
25:04
Speaker 1: made any sense to them. You know, they didn't want
25:06
Speaker 1: to hear it, and so I remained friendly. I mean,
25:09
Speaker 1: they didn't commit the murder, but I you know, I
25:12
Speaker 1: was stunned that they could let the guy go. Everybody
25:16
Speaker 1: show was over, and we walked out to the car
25:21
Speaker 1: and they were going and I walked out behind them,
25:24
Speaker 1: right behind them, and they started talking to me, very friendly,
25:29
Speaker 1: very civil and nice to me, even though I vehemently
25:32
Speaker 1: disagreed with them. And a big old white stretch limo
25:37
Speaker 1: came up and it picked for them. Okay, I was standing,
25:41
Speaker 1: They're hoping I could get a taxi. So it came
25:44
Speaker 1: this big stretch limbo came up Alan, and one of
25:48
Speaker 1: them turned around and she had her hand on the
25:50
Speaker 1: car door. She turned around and she said, Nancy, I'll
25:53
Speaker 1: tell you what, this murder has been the best thing
25:56
Speaker 1: that ever happened to me. I mean, we have gone
25:59
Speaker 1: on shop pink spreees, we have gone to the best restaurants,
26:03
Speaker 1: we have stayed in the best hotels. I mean, it
26:06
Speaker 1: has really been something. That's what I'm not through my story, Alan,
26:12
Speaker 1: Can I just finish my story please? So then I
26:14
Speaker 1: just stood there looking at her, and she slammed. They
26:18
Speaker 1: shut the door, and they drove off, and I was
26:21
Speaker 1: standing there, and of course I had on a coat
26:26
Speaker 1: of what you could call a coat from Georgia, was
26:29
Speaker 1: nothing to hold up in New York. And I remember
26:32
Speaker 1: shivering and it started to snow. At that moment, snowflakes
26:36
Speaker 1: started coming down, and I watched the tail lights disappear
26:40
Speaker 1: and they turned off to the right, and I just
26:43
Speaker 1: thought about what she said. This murder trial has been
26:48
Speaker 1: the best thing that ever happened to me. That's what
26:51
Speaker 1: she said. You know, it launched, It launched, It launched
26:55
Speaker 1: a lot of careers, It launched shows. It changed the
26:58
Speaker 1: way that I love vision is done, the way that
27:02
Speaker 1: we cover trials. It was not talking about that, Scott.
27:07
Speaker 1: Can anybody hear me here? Tell Scott. What I'm saying
27:10
Speaker 1: is a person on the jury said that murder trial
27:16
Speaker 1: was the best I'm not I'm not saying something seems
27:22
Speaker 1: is it just for nine months? It should have been
27:26
Speaker 1: six weeks? It was ridiculous. Do I still have with me? Okay, Joe,
27:33
Speaker 1: can you speak? Can you do you not see the
27:37
Speaker 1: problem with this, The irony of eating at the best hotel, eating,
27:43
Speaker 1: eating at the best rushtural staying at the best hotels,
27:46
Speaker 1: going on shopping spreees, being on TV and saying the
27:50
Speaker 1: murder trial is the best thing that ever happened to you.
27:52
Speaker 1: That's not what murder trial is about. No, and you knows.
27:56
Speaker 1: I use this case now, this is twelve years twelve
27:59
Speaker 1: years you know, downrange from my career working death investigations
28:04
Speaker 1: in Atlanta and in New Orleans. And I used this
28:07
Speaker 1: case repeatedly in my forensics class. This is the case
28:11
Speaker 1: that actually changed the way we process death scenes. Now
28:17
Speaker 1: I use this case repeatedly my classroom, and I tell
28:20
Speaker 1: them that listen, it's this turned out this was obviously
28:24
Speaker 1: a rich man's game. He the defense wore the jury
28:29
Speaker 1: down with hyperbole and science that was way above their head.
28:33
Speaker 1: And they don't want to hear anything else. And it's
28:36
Speaker 1: it's a real show. I want to get back to
28:37
Speaker 1: Cheryl Kine, who has written this book about the murders. Cheryl,
28:43
Speaker 1: many people believe, including some of simpsons former lawyers, that
28:46
Speaker 1: he will make parole and it's all going to go
28:49
Speaker 1: down on Wednesday. What do you think, Cheryl. He's a monster.
28:54
Speaker 1: He should never be released. He's picking time bum he'll
29:00
Speaker 1: get out and do something else. He's incapable of being
29:06
Speaker 1: a normal human being. And what he did, and which
29:11
Speaker 1: is outlined in our book. If the dog hadn't come
29:16
Speaker 1: back to the crime scene at twelve oh four with
29:20
Speaker 1: the neighbors, he would have well O. J. Simpson's playing
29:25
Speaker 1: was still sitting on the tarmac at L A X.
29:29
Speaker 1: He would have got away with murder with the alibi
29:32
Speaker 1: of distance when he was in Chicago. The dog saved
29:36
Speaker 1: the day, and the dog saved the young children at
29:41
Speaker 1: the time aged five and eight from finding their brutally
29:46
Speaker 1: butchered mother and Ron Goldman when they came down for
29:51
Speaker 1: breakfast the next morning. I just wonder how much the
29:55
Speaker 1: parole board is going to take all of this into
29:58
Speaker 1: account when they make this decision. The decision going down
30:03
Speaker 1: in seventy two hours. So let me ask you this,
30:08
Speaker 1: Alan Duke. Will Simpson himself appear at the pro board hearing.
30:12
Speaker 1: I'm sure he'll be there. Why wouldn't he be there? Yes,
30:15
Speaker 1: he'll be there. We're expecting and by the way, it's
30:17
Speaker 1: gonna be televised. We're gonna we're gonna be able to
30:20
Speaker 1: see me is as it should be, so Cheryl Caine,
30:24
Speaker 1: who has written this fantastic book. Cheryl, he's not up
30:29
Speaker 1: for role on the double murders. He was never convicted
30:32
Speaker 1: on that. But do you believe those murders will weigh
30:36
Speaker 1: in the minds of the parole board, Cheryl. We're hoping
30:40
Speaker 1: they do, because he does not deserve to be paroled.
30:44
Speaker 1: He's a butcher and he's incapable of sitting back into society.
30:51
Speaker 1: Even the even the things he did in Florida were ridiculous.
30:56
Speaker 1: See what things in Florida. Well, I won't go into that.
31:00
Speaker 1: Let's concentrate on the book. Um, when anybody reads this book,
31:06
Speaker 1: they will not want O. J. Simpson on the street.
31:10
Speaker 1: I mean, it's brutal, Allen Duke. If they look at
31:14
Speaker 1: the armed robbery in isolation, it was a brutal. He
31:20
Speaker 1: acted like he was above the law, that he could
31:23
Speaker 1: just do whatever he wanted and there would be no consequences.
31:26
Speaker 1: Then he lied about it in front of the judge
31:30
Speaker 1: at sentencing. Instead of finally coming clean after a jury
31:34
Speaker 1: finds him guilty, Simpson tries to tell the judge that
31:39
Speaker 1: what really happened, he was trying to reclaim family heirlooms,
31:46
Speaker 1: family heirlooms and other items stolen from him, and that
31:51
Speaker 1: he had no idea all of his buddies were carrying guns.
31:55
Speaker 1: I mean, after a jury finds you guilty, you're you
32:00
Speaker 1: caught red handed, right then you get up and lie
32:05
Speaker 1: to the judge's face. I mean, does that mean nothing
32:08
Speaker 1: to nobody but me? Oh oh no, oh no. You
32:11
Speaker 1: don't get up in line of me. After I put
32:14
Speaker 1: you through a jury trial and you put me through
32:16
Speaker 1: a jury trial, do not stand up and lie up
32:19
Speaker 1: in my face. Alan, Yeah, you're right. Lying to the
32:22
Speaker 1: judges the last thing you ever want to do when
32:25
Speaker 1: it comes to sentencing. But yeah, the Nevada jury, obviously
32:29
Speaker 1: they they had this O. J. Nicole Brown Simpson Ron
32:33
Speaker 1: Goldman murders very much in their minds when they found
32:36
Speaker 1: him guilty. Why he's found he's caught redheaded in an
32:41
Speaker 1: armed rob But they there was no way the wrong
32:45
Speaker 1: side of a gun in your face and see how
32:48
Speaker 1: you feel it was wrong? Okay, so it was. You
32:52
Speaker 1: don't right, it was wrong if it hadn't been O. J.
32:54
Speaker 1: Simpson and if he hadn't been notoriously acquitted in the
32:58
Speaker 1: Los Angeles case, I don't he ever would have been
33:01
Speaker 1: given all of this time? Really, what are you trying
33:04
Speaker 1: to say? You don't think I took people to trial
33:07
Speaker 1: on an armed rock. There were ends in the can. Yeah,
33:11
Speaker 1: with a jury and they convicted. You pull out a
33:15
Speaker 1: gun and rob somebody, You are going to jail if
33:19
Speaker 1: I have anything to do with it. And you're gonna
33:21
Speaker 1: sit there as long as he does have the gun
33:23
Speaker 1: because when you get out, you'll probably do it again.
33:25
Speaker 1: And you know what I heard Cheryl say, and she
33:28
Speaker 1: didn't want to talk about it. All of what quote
33:30
Speaker 1: happened in Florida. I mean, how many times could that
33:34
Speaker 1: ex girlfriend of his show up covered in bruises? Yeah?
33:37
Speaker 1: I mean really and she finally finally broke up with him? Well,
33:42
Speaker 1: there's no question I guess she fell down the steps
33:44
Speaker 1: like Nicole Brown did. There's no question that O. J.
33:47
Speaker 1: Simpson is a lifelong problem child and a murderous problem.
33:52
Speaker 1: Stop it, stop it, I mean, and he'll you know,
33:54
Speaker 1: stop it. He is not a place don't problem child.
34:00
Speaker 1: A problem child is somebody that won't eat the broccoli.
34:04
Speaker 1: This is a double killer and an armed robber, all right,
34:09
Speaker 1: He's not a He just made me man a problem child. Well,
34:12
Speaker 1: I mean this is a double killer. Haven't you seen
34:16
Speaker 1: those crime scene photos of Nicole Wang and a pool
34:18
Speaker 1: of blood. I covered it closely when it was going on.
34:22
Speaker 1: He need to go back and look, he is a killer.
34:25
Speaker 1: In the l A case. They did not win the
34:28
Speaker 1: case because the l A. P D Messed up, messed
34:32
Speaker 1: up royally, and the poor prosecutors just didn't realize it
34:36
Speaker 1: until it was too late. Nancy. Let's listen to a
34:39
Speaker 1: little bit of what Simpson told the parole board in
34:41
Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, the last time he was asking to
34:44
Speaker 1: get out early. Okay, listen to this. Not had any
34:47
Speaker 1: incidents has despite all the stories and the taboloids and everything.
34:51
Speaker 1: I haven't had one incident since I've been here, Right,
34:54
Speaker 1: I think on a daily paid basis, i'd speak to
34:57
Speaker 1: more inmates and CEOs and any out of here um.
35:02
Speaker 1: Inmates tell me their stories. Uh, some of them tell
35:05
Speaker 1: me their crimes and uh as far as burglary, which
35:08
Speaker 1: I'm here for a robbery, I should say, Uh, They've
35:12
Speaker 1: told me every kind of story you can hear. Guys
35:14
Speaker 1: who have rob banks, had rode those. Even one guy
35:17
Speaker 1: who robbed a gun shop which I thought took a
35:19
Speaker 1: lot of guns. Uh. The difference between all of their
35:23
Speaker 1: crimes and mine is they were trying to steal other
35:26
Speaker 1: people's property. They were trying to steal other people's money.
35:31
Speaker 1: My crime was trying to retrieve from my family, my
35:34
Speaker 1: own property, property that has been stolen from me, in
35:38
Speaker 1: property that since I've been here at love Lock, the
35:43
Speaker 1: State of California's judiciary has who was my stuff and
35:47
Speaker 1: I had it back. Now, make no mistake, I would
35:51
Speaker 1: give it all back to these guys. They could have
35:54
Speaker 1: it all to get. These last five years uh back. Uh.
35:59
Speaker 1: They've been some illuminating at times and thankful a lot
36:02
Speaker 1: of times. I've missed my two younger kids who we
36:06
Speaker 1: worked hard getting through high school. I missed they are
36:09
Speaker 1: college graduations. I missed my I missed my daughters, uh,
36:15
Speaker 1: my sisters, I should say in funeral. I missed all
36:19
Speaker 1: of birthdays and in various things. When I went to
36:21
Speaker 1: that place that night, I had already discussed it with
36:25
Speaker 1: my kids. I spoke about it with my sister and
36:29
Speaker 1: brother in law older sister and brother in law who
36:31
Speaker 1: were originally going to go with me up until the
36:33
Speaker 1: last hour. I even talked to two lawyers about it.
36:36
Speaker 1: One the night before that I knew and had a
36:39
Speaker 1: conversation with a lawyer that day who I didn't know.
36:43
Speaker 1: I did had no intention. My attempt was not to
36:46
Speaker 1: rob from anybody. I knew both of these guys who
36:49
Speaker 1: had my stuff. I was a little upset with him,
36:52
Speaker 1: and I think I wasn't as civil as I should
36:55
Speaker 1: have been. I brought some guys with me where I
36:58
Speaker 1: didn't really know, and one I didn't trust, and that's
37:01
Speaker 1: on me, uh for that. I've been here for five years,
37:05
Speaker 1: and all I could do about it since I've been
37:08
Speaker 1: here is be as respectful and as straightforward as as
37:13
Speaker 1: I could be with the staff here at Lovelock, and
37:17
Speaker 1: do my time as best as I can do it. Uh.
37:21
Speaker 1: I am sorry for what has happened. I spoke to
37:25
Speaker 1: I have spoken at length to both of the victims. UH.
37:29
Speaker 1: They've apologized. I've apologized. I know their families, they know
37:32
Speaker 1: my families, and I just wish I had never gone
37:36
Speaker 1: to that to that room. I wish I didn't. I
37:38
Speaker 1: wish I had just said keep it and not worry
37:40
Speaker 1: about it. UM. Other than that, you know, I'm just
37:46
Speaker 1: sorry that all of this had to happen. But let's
37:49
Speaker 1: get down to it. The parole board scores an inmate
37:52
Speaker 1: on multiple factors. The higher the score, the greater risk
37:57
Speaker 1: involved in releasing them him. A person with a score
38:01
Speaker 1: of zero to five is deemed low risk. Six to eleven, medium,
38:08
Speaker 1: twelve or more. Your high risk. All right. In two
38:11
Speaker 1: thousand thirteen, Simpsons scored three points. All right, that's low.
38:17
Speaker 1: I don't like it. I don't know where they got.
38:20
Speaker 1: He's an old man. He's not the same. You know what.
38:25
Speaker 1: I prosecuted a man for child station and he was
38:27
Speaker 1: seventy three years old. It's different, alright, No, it's not different.
38:32
Speaker 1: It's a felony. You don't think Simpson's gonna get out
38:35
Speaker 1: and beat somebody up or rob somebody. Horrible thing. I
38:39
Speaker 1: think he's gonna be He's gonna be a target. I
38:41
Speaker 1: think he better watches. Butnny how he hasn't been a
38:43
Speaker 1: target behind bars. Everybody predicted. Oh he's gonna get jail
38:47
Speaker 1: house justice. Oh oh no, he's got a butler behind bars,
38:51
Speaker 1: love letters, the works. He's got somebody working for him
38:54
Speaker 1: behind bars. We'll see how he survives. I'm wondering if
38:57
Speaker 1: he'll ever show up. To l A and and come
39:00
Speaker 1: out here. See how he survives. He's gained weight, He's
39:03
Speaker 1: living like a king. That's how he's surviving. I don't
39:06
Speaker 1: have to wait and see. I already know how he surved.
39:09
Speaker 1: What what has happened to you? Have you lost your
39:11
Speaker 1: I haven't lost my mind, but Simpson is up. That
39:16
Speaker 1: sounded weak mind. It makes me think maybe you have
39:19
Speaker 1: lost your mind. Okay, all right, okay, okay, okay, Allen.
39:25
Speaker 1: I'm gonna eat a dirt sandwich and apologize for fussing
39:29
Speaker 1: at you, although I, in the words of Lego Batman,
39:33
Speaker 1: I disagree with everything you just said. So how is
39:36
Speaker 1: it that O. J. Simpson is still getting an NFL pension?
39:43
Speaker 1: While Ron Goldman took him to a civil trial where
39:47
Speaker 1: it came out that he did own Bruno Molly's shoes.
39:51
Speaker 1: Those foot bloody footprints, they matched his shoes that he
39:55
Speaker 1: denied having. It came out that he made a negative
39:59
Speaker 1: something I want to say, a negative forty on his polygraph.
40:04
Speaker 1: All that came out in the civil trial that was
40:06
Speaker 1: not in at the criminal case. But that aside, Ron
40:09
Speaker 1: Goldman never got Ron Goldman's dad, Fred Goldman, never got
40:13
Speaker 1: a penny one penny from that civil judgment. So how
40:18
Speaker 1: is it that Simpson still has And in that, by
40:23
Speaker 1: the way, in that civil trial, the difference was, of
40:24
Speaker 1: course we heard from O. J. And he did look
40:26
Speaker 1: kind of guilty on that. I mean, he wasn't able
40:28
Speaker 1: to to put on a glove. Look he did in
40:35
Speaker 1: the criminal trial where he just put the gloves on
40:38
Speaker 1: and said, hey, they don't fit. You know, first of all,
40:42
Speaker 1: he didn't testify at the criminal trial. Number one, he
40:45
Speaker 1: did he did a deposition at the civil trial. Testify
40:49
Speaker 1: at the criminal trial. He stood up in a very
40:53
Speaker 1: very ill conceived in court demonstration and pretended that God
40:58
Speaker 1: didn't feel that's what he did, okay, and and that
41:01
Speaker 1: that served as he was able to testify without being
41:04
Speaker 1: cross examined in that sense, cheryld, what were you saying.
41:08
Speaker 1: Anyone who has any doubt that he did it will
41:12
Speaker 1: read this book and know that he did it. It's
41:15
Speaker 1: a brutal account, and Ron Goldman's family is suffering for
41:20
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives. In fact, my publicist asked
41:25
Speaker 1: ed Lovesey asked me to send a copy of the
41:28
Speaker 1: book to the Goldman's and then I said, I don't
41:31
Speaker 1: want to do that, it would just bring more pain
41:35
Speaker 1: to their lives. Would you send a copy of the
41:37
Speaker 1: book to the Goldman's Nancy, No, I would not. I don't.
41:42
Speaker 1: I've already been through so much. I mean, they know
41:46
Speaker 1: what happened. They've been through just so much pain and torture.
41:50
Speaker 1: And no, I would not. I don't think I would
41:53
Speaker 1: do that. Um. You know what's interesting to just got
41:56
Speaker 1: Morgan death investigator and forensics investigated or at Jacksonal State University.
42:02
Speaker 1: There's no doubt that he flat out flunked his life
42:07
Speaker 1: detector tests. After agree Nancy, there is no doubt. Uh.
42:11
Speaker 1: And again uh that stood out in the civil case.
42:15
Speaker 1: I think that in addition to that that um uh
42:19
Speaker 1: in the back to the criminal trial, I think that
42:22
Speaker 1: d NA points to O j uh and going back
42:26
Speaker 1: to to what's going to happen on Wednesday and what
42:30
Speaker 1: Carol had mentioned just a few months ago. UM, I
42:33
Speaker 1: think that this is going to this event, these two deaths,
42:36
Speaker 1: these brutal butcherings, as Carol had had uh sorry Cheryl,
42:43
Speaker 1: Cheryl had pointed out, I apologize this game. Uh. I
42:46
Speaker 1: think that that that, in my estimation, those are going
42:52
Speaker 1: to play into the thoughts of this board. This is
42:55
Speaker 1: not gonna be like a criminal trial. Uh, this is
42:58
Speaker 1: gonna resonate with them. They're gonna have that in mind.
43:00
Speaker 1: It's impossible to escape it. So I think he's in
43:03
Speaker 1: a prison of his own making right now. I'm I'm
43:06
Speaker 1: betting that they're not going to cut him loose. I
43:08
Speaker 1: don't know how much longer that they could, I hope.
43:11
Speaker 1: I don't know how much longer they could actually keep
43:14
Speaker 1: him in UM on the charges that he went down on,
43:18
Speaker 1: because it wouldn't be a parole again for another five years.
43:24
Speaker 1: Are I on that parole board hearing Joe Scott Morgan
43:28
Speaker 1: and Cheryl Kane, author, thank you for being with us.
43:32
Speaker 1: Goodbye friend,