Latest / No Mess, No Magic / Building an AuDHD Friendly Practice with Dr. Bailey Lang
Transcript
- Monica Hay: Hello and welcome to the No Mess No Magic podcast with Monica He, a podcast for writers. I'm very excited. Today we have Dr. Bailey Lang. Hi, Dr. Bailey Lang. I love you to say doctor. Bailey Lang: Hello, hi. It feels very fancy. Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to chat today. Monica Hay: I'm excited too. So let me introduce you. Dr. Bailey Lang is a literary witch, which I love. A book coach who helps authors build sustainable, magical writing practices that take their books from draft to done. With a focus on mindset, practice, and craft, Bailey combines research with intuitive client-led wisdom to guide writers as they step into their creative power. I love it. So today we're gonna talk a bit about the like building and is, how do I say it? ⁓ Audi HD, is that the typical? Yes, perfect. Building an Audi HD friendly writing practice and why one size fits all writing advice just does not work for people who are Audi HD. Probably most people who listen to this podcast know that I am ADHD, but I'm. Bailey Lang: Yeah. Yep. Mm. Monica Hay: I'm not autistic, so I don't know as much about that world. And so was really excited when Bailey presented this topic. I also feel like we're going to talk a little bit about magic in this episode because I can't help it. Bailey Lang: sure. It's always gonna be in there. Monica Hay: Yes. Yes. So for those who are listening who might not understand the difference, what is the difference between ADHD and autism, basically? Bailey Lang: Yeah, it's a really good question. So I'm autistic, my best friend is AudiHD, and we joke all the time that the Venn diagram between autism and ADHD is very close to being a circle. There's so, so much overlap between these two neuro types. ⁓ So I'll offer a couple of definitions with the caveat that these are really, really high level oversimplifications and your mileage may vary, right? So I'm going to pull a little bit from ⁓ Dr. Megan Anna Neff. ⁓ She's a clinical psychologist. She's ADHD herself. She does a lot of work on these topics. And so the way that she describes autism is it's a neurotype that shapes your sensory processing, how you communicate, and the ways that you engage with the world. Where ADHD... Monica Hay: Yes. Bailey Lang: is a neurotype that is more about like focus, energy, and how you regulate your attention. So ADHD is like a lot about focus, energy, and attention. And then autism, you're looking more at like sensory processing issues, know, communication differences, ⁓ and patterns of engaging with the world that look different from neurotypical persons. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yep. Yeah, got it. So I'm curious when they are combined in the same person. What, I mean, obviously every single person and every everybody experiences it differently. But I'm curious, like what, because some people will say like, ⁓ they're like the opposite thing, like an ADHD person wants like chaos and an autistic person wants like structure. Like I often hear that. And so what? Bailey Lang: Right. Monica Hay: What tends to happen when they are combined in a person? what can look, like how does that show up in a writing practice? Bailey Lang: Yes. Right. Yeah. the chaos structure thing, that's often for odd-EHD folks, ⁓ site of tension, right? Because the autistic part of your brain probably craves that structure, and the ADHD of your brain is like, I need something new, I need the novelty, ⁓ I to do something that feels interesting. ⁓ I just do the same old thing over and over again. ⁓ And that can create a lot of back and forth for people. Monica Hay: Yep. Bailey Lang: in folks who are on ADHD, ⁓ there's often, once you figure out that like, ⁓ I have this combined neuro type, right? ⁓ and some people have, have posed it as like a distinct third neuro type, not necessarily a combination. ⁓ but there's like, once you have that recognition that like, ⁓ like both of these pieces are happening, everything starts to kind of make more sense, right? And like, this is something that, that Monica Hay: Mmm. Mmm. Bailey Lang: Dr. Megan Ananf talks about a lot where she's like, once people kind of have this realization, because they never fully feel like they fit in autistic spaces and they never fully feel like they fit in ADHD spaces. And so once you have the understanding that like it's both, ⁓ it opens up a lot of new possibilities for how you can accommodate yourself in ways that actually work. there's like a really common saying in autistic spaces is like, if you've met one autistic person, you've met one autistic person, right? And I think that's true kind of across the board for autism, ADHD and AuDHD is like the expression and the experience are all so unique. It's really hard to generalize. Monica Hay: Yeah. Right? I am curious. This is a question I was very excited to ask because I get a lot of people who come into my work who have been very burned by traditional writing advice. And that's not to say that like there's any bad writing advice necessarily. think writing advice exists because it works for someone and they're sharing what worked for them. And I'm really glad it works for them. But sometimes... Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: we, neurotypical people will experience a very different reality obviously than near spicy people. And so when a neurodiverse person tries different things, they end up just feeling like they're just shit. Like it's like, ⁓ I must be just broken. And so why do you think a lot of writers who are neurodiverse feel broken by traditional writing advice? Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Yeah, think sometimes it's because they've been directly told that ⁓ in various ways. It might be by people in a writing group. It might be by a bad experience with a teacher. And it can just come from not ever really seeing your way of engaging with writing represented as valid and legitimate. Monica Hay: Yeah. Bailey Lang: We get these narratives of like, you have to write every day, you have to be disciplined, you have to do it these specific ways that don't work for our brains. And then it's like, so what is the alternative? It's if the alternative that we're given is you do it this way or you're doing it wrong, then we're kind of in this position where we're always doing it wrong. And that's a really bad feeling to feel like, can't do Stephen King's on writing. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Bailey Lang: recommendations, so I must be doing something bad because it works for him. So I think that the like the really, really like stereotypical, neurotypical types of writing advice that we see, they just don't work for neurodivergent people. But we don't we don't get enough alternatives represented. We don't see other ways of writing as equally legitimate. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah, and I also think that it's very easy to forget that, you know, people who have like, Stephen King, for example, obviously we all know he was on drugs, but also he had a lot of support, right? like his, I think at least I've been told, I haven't actually read on writing because I've been told that it'll piss me off. I should probably read it someday just to like know the material. ⁓ Bailey Lang: Right? They probably will. Monica Hay: And like I said, I think it's wonderful when advice works for some people, but I think often what... Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: I think sometimes when coaches and teachers and stuff teach writing advice, kind of teach it as like, they treat it as persuasive. They treat it as like, this is the advice I'm giving you and let me persuade you why it is the only way. Even if they don't realize they're doing that. ⁓ At least that's from when I think about classes in the past and they'll be like, this is how you could do things and like, Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Monica Hay: this is why this is like the best way to do it. And I'm like, this is great. And I love that this works for many people, but that's not always what's going to work, right? And I think, you mentioned discipline, which I'd like to ask you about. So I have such a weird relationship with discipline. think a lot of other neurodiverse people probably do. Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yes. Monica Hay: As writers, we have to find a way to get words on the page, right? Whether we're writing, we're doing dictation, whatever it might mean. Why is discipline often framed in ways that ignore disability, especially energy fluctuation? That's something I really struggle with as an ADHDer, executive dysfunction. How, why is it, how do I say this? Because I feel like, Bailey Lang: Mm. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: As a coach, I'm always telling people like, yes, you have to actually show up for the work. No, you don't have to do it every day, but at some point you have to actually write, right? Like that's just the reality, right? But how can we actually find ways to get words on the page that doesn't feel punishing? Bailey Lang: Rape. Rape. Yeah. Yeah! Yeah, that's, and that is always my problem with like, ⁓ you have to be disciplined to do this. I'm like, who enjoys being disciplined? Like outside of very specific contexts, not here to kink shame anybody, right? But right, like in general, we regard discipline as unpleasant, right? And it's, I just like, why would you make your writing practice feel bad? ⁓ Monica Hay: Yes. For sure. Bailey Lang: This is like, I'm always trying to flip this for people. I'm like, what if instead of thinking of this in terms of like, I have to discipline myself into writing? I think there's two kind of useful pathways out of that. One is like, can I treat writing as a discipline? It's not I'm punishing myself into writing, it's I'm treating writing as a space of study. This is my discipline. This is my practice, my craft. I think that's... Monica Hay: Yeah. Mmm. Mmm. Bailey Lang: mindset shift can be really helpful to be like, I don't have to discipline myself. This is something that I show up for because I'm passionate about it, because I love it, because I'm interested in it, right? This is a rabbit hole that I get to go down and it gets to be fun. And the other reframe that I have found really helpful for some folks is shifting from this mindset of like discipline to one of devotion, right? If you're devoted to something, you're going to show up with a very different energy than if you are Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Mmm, yeah. Bailey Lang: disciplining yourself into it. ⁓ And so I think that can be really helpful and permission giving to be like, how do I create ritual around this? How do I shift my relationship with my creative practice to one that feels fulfilling and sustaining and joyful ⁓ and magical and not one that feels like this very sterile space of I have to do this or I am a failure, right? That is... Monica Hay: Mmm. Bailey Lang: it's not, it's not gonna work. If your writing practice doesn't feel good, you're not gonna stick with it. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I think a lot of the messaging, because I, every time I do ads for my bootcamp, I feel like I probably brought this up before with you, but I don't exactly remember. But I always like, I'll do ads for this, this bootcamp I run called Overcome Writers Resistance Bootcamp. And I talk about how so many of us feel shame for having resistance. And without fucking fail, there's a dude. Bailey Lang: Mm. Monica Hay: in my comments who tells me if you can't get yourself to show up to write or if you're not disciplined enough to write, then you're not a writer. Or something along the lines of if you have resistance, then maybe you're not supposed to be a writer or like, you know, this like shame, this failure, I'm not like kind of talk online that a lot of us see this discourse of like, well, Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. It's always a dude. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: you actually have to do the work and you have to be disciplined and like, it's very interesting. And it's funny because every time I do the bootcamp, I'll turn off my ads to men over 50 and I don't get those comments anymore. Which makes me really sad because I love working with men. Like I'm very inclusive. I love working with all genders and I've had like amazing male clients over 50. And so I'm just like, why is this the way it is online? But Bailey Lang: Ha Yup, see, yeah. That is not shocking. Monica Hay: I think... I think it's what I'm getting at is that so many of us, like, we just feel like the world is telling us that we're not enough and that what we do isn't enough. Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm, always. And especially if you're neurodivergent, right? That's the message that you've gotten probably since early childhood, right? So it's like deeply, deeply ingrained. And so it's not surprising we experience resistance too, when that is the narrative is like, well, I'm already falling short in all of these ways. Of course, that's going to produce resistance. Monica Hay: Yes. Yep. Yep. And I'm already falling short and then somebody else kicks me further, right? Like somebody else says, well, if you're not disciplined, then like you're not a real writer or whatever. ⁓ It's complete garbage. like resistance exists in every form of life, not just with writing or creativity. It's just universal. Yes. Yes. So I am very curious. So what are some of your favorite practices? Bailey Lang: Yeah, which is garbage. Mm-hmm. Right, it shows up everywhere. It's normal. Yes. Monica Hay: in your writing life. Let's talk about that. Bailey Lang: Yeah, it's so I am autistic. really like structure, but I also have so there's a personality trait within autism. It's called PDA. And that's often ⁓ a persistent drive for autonomy or pathological demand avoidance, depending on sort of there's like two camps about how we use that term. ⁓ I prefer persistent drive for autonomy, but there are definitely elements where it can become pathological. So what I run into is like, I really like structure, really, really like structure. I like predictability. I like routine. And also there is a point in every routine that I create where it flips from feeling supportive to feeling constraining. And then I have to blow the whole thing up, right? And like do something different. And so this is something that it took me a number of years, particularly once I figured out that I am autistic and that this is like what is going on for me to go from Monica Hay: Mm. Yeah. Bailey Lang: having that kind of shame-based narrative of like, can never stick with a routine even though I really like routines, like I'm doing this badly, you know, what is wrong with me? Like that really kind of shame-based loop to going, okay, this is just a feature of how my brain works. Like I have a little gremlin in there that recognizes I need a lot of autonomy in my practices. So what I've been able to build is like, I just have like a whole big toolbox. ⁓ Monica Hay: Mmm. Bailey Lang: excuse me, of practices that I can reach for and say, okay, you know, I'm going to go to the coffee shop every Friday because I don't work on Fridays. And I'm going to sit there for a couple hours. I'm going to take a notebook. I'm going to leave my phone in the car. I'm going to take my headphones and I'm just going to sit there and write. And I'm going to do that until it doesn't work anymore. And then I will figure out something else. Maybe I'll go to the library. Maybe I will, you know, make a little nest at home somewhere that I can write in. Monica Hay: Hmm. Yep. Bailey Lang: So my practices change quite a bit. And part of what's really helpful about being a writing studies scholar and a coach is that I have this huge library of things that I can go, okay, this isn't feeling good anymore. What do I want to do next? So I've been traveling a lot this spring. I've been taking the train quite a bit, which is very fun. Highly recommend because there's no wifi on the train. Monica Hay: ⁓ Yeah. Bailey Lang: ⁓ so it's, and a lot of times there's no phone signal either. So that is a super fun way to just like sit and get some writing done. ⁓ and so I've been thinking about like, how can I recreate those conditions at home? ⁓ you know, escape the wifi, get away from my phone, ⁓ eliminate distractions. ⁓ I really like to ritualize my writing practices too. That's part of the magic piece. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah. Mmm. Bailey Lang: So I will bring in, you know, I'll light a candle, I'll do some intention setting, I might pull some cards before I start writing, and just really let the intentionality of all of that sink into the writing practice. And that's really helpful for me getting into a focused state more quickly. It's been really good for that because it just creates this environment where I'm like... Monica Hay: Hmm. Yeah. Bailey Lang: The rest of the world is outside of this sacred ritual space that I have created. Like this is writing time. And it just signals to my brain, like, we get to focus now. We get to do this thing that's really fun. So those are some things that I do. I like to switch things up. I like to bring in a little magic. ⁓ And I really like, a lot of it has been about learning what works for my brain and my body and like how to incorporate those into my practice. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Bailey Lang: in a proactive and affirming way and not in a shame-based way where I'm like, I'm not doing this badly because I need different things. Like, I need different things. So how do I set myself up to succeed? Monica Hay: Mmm... Yeah. Yes, I really love that we're talking about the shame narrative because I think what a lot of this boils down to is that a lot of us feel shame. I don't know why that's such a common narrative toward, like, I don't know why people shame each other. I just like, I don't get it. And it's interesting because I also like, Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: And we can go even deeper on this subject. I'm a very spiritual person, but I'm not particularly open about that on most of my socials. I'll like hint at it here and there. And it's mostly because I have shame, like I, as an Enneagram free, which I'm not sure if you're, do you know your Enneagram out of curiosity? Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. ⁓ I just did it at a retreat that I was on. think I'm a four, but I can't remember. Monica Hay: Okay, yes, love it. So the Enneagram 3, which is super fun, we just love approval, isn't it fucking great? And so in my brain, I am always like, how can I make sure that people approve of me? Which I don't love that that's how my brain works, but it just is. And so when I have in the past been open about being a spiritual person, usually men. Bailey Lang: You Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: who are older will say weird things or will comment about how it's such bullshit or they'll basically just be very condescending. And so I have gotten exhausted by this and I'm like, this is just private. It's nobody else's business. ⁓ And I think that shame conversation and the need for... Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: Like, legitimacy, I think a lot of neurodiverse people also just need legitimacy to know that like what they're doing is allowed, you know? Bailey Lang: Mm-mm. Yeah. Yep. Monica Hay: Yeah, I'm also curious. So you pull a card. I love that. ⁓ It's funny, when you ritualize things, so you say that you have kind of a ritual, how long does your ritual tend to last before you actually start writing? My curiosity. Bailey Lang: Yeah, depends on how much time I have to write. Honestly, like if I have a whole morning to myself, I might do something a little bit more elaborate. If I'm like, I have, you know, half an hour to write, I might do like, I'm to light a candle and set a quick intention and that's going to be it. Which is, I think that's the beauty of like having some sort of ritual practice, whether that's magical, you know, reflective, religious, whatever works for you. ⁓ You get to kind of make it up. Monica Hay: Fair. Bailey Lang: you get to customize it. And so you can have something that works for like, if I have all day to write, you know, maybe I'll do like a full on ceremony to get myself started and really like, make it very fun and elaborate. ⁓ But if I'm, you know, like in between meetings and I have an idea, it's, you know, I'm going to jot stuff down. So it's very flexible, which is that's that's also helpful. Monica Hay: Yeah. I love that. I love it. I am curious. I feel like a lot of, I hear from a lot of neurodiverse people that they want, they have a fantasy version of their writing practice and like their writing life. And, you know, I think it's common for all of us have a fantasy version, not just neurodiverse people. Like we see like Joe March in like, Bailey Lang: Yeah. Monica Hay: the movie and we're like, ⁓ want to like, we imagined having this type of writing practice. But how can writers stop building routines for this fantasy version and start building routines for like their current version? Because I think and this is I feel like I have this conversation all the time. I feel like so many people who come to me like they're working a full time job. They're they have kids or they have Bailey Lang: If only. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: people are taken care of. They're very stressed and overwhelmed and they have this fantasy version of like, I want to be in the woods for six months and have all day to write and that's the only way that I can make it work. They have this belief that that's the only way that they can write. So how can neurodiverse people find ways to actually show up Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Monica Hay: with their executive functioning issues and everything ⁓ in their day-to-day life. There's probably no easy answer for this, but I am curious. Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Yeah. There's not, there are a lot of answers. And I love this question because, yeah, this is like, it's so common with particularly, I think, neurodivergent writers who don't have a good model of non-neurotypical ways of writing yet to think, OK, I have to be writing every day, I have to be writing in these huge long chunks of time, you know, I have to be doing it this specific way or I'm doing it wrong, and then that doesn't fit their life. And so the thing that breaks is the writing practice, right? And often your hearts a little bit. So there are, there are like a lot of ways that we can kind of get around this. ⁓ So the first one is always to kind of acknowledge that you have been planning your writing for this sort of fantasy. Monica Hay: Mmm. Bailey Lang: life that you don't actually live, right? You don't have, you may not have access to six months in the woods to do nothing but write. ⁓ And so just acknowledging that can be a really big step to being like, okay, I don't, it's never going to be ideal. It's never going to be perfect. What am I actually working with? And so if we can like get, you know, get it back to the perspective of like, what am I actually working with? That's a really big first step. ⁓ Another tactic that I use a lot for people to kind of plan is don't plan a writing practice that you think is going to have to last forever. Can you just plan this week? Can you just plan the next two days? This does not have to be set in stone. This can be something that flexes with your life and your energy and your needs and your goals. You don't have to say, I'm writing this way. Monica Hay: Mmm. Mmm. Bailey Lang: and it's gonna be this way forever and ever, amen. Like it doesn't have to work like that. And then another tool that I found really, really useful for people. This is something that I learned from my business coach, Jenny Gritters is using red light, yellow light, green light planning. So green light day is like you wake up and you're like, I'm on this. Like I got this, my energy's high. I feel really good. Like I had this, you know, the stars have aligned. Like I'm doing the thing. I'm doing it at max capacity and it's going to feel great. A yellow light day is like, I feel pretty good. I'm maybe not at full capacity. Things are kind of busy, but I can do something, right? Like I can pick up the project. I can write a little bit. And a red light day is like, I got nothing. I'm, you know, kids are sick. I have 50 meetings. I'm sick. You know, whatever the case may be. ⁓ It's just not an ideal day. What can I do? Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Bailey Lang: maybe I'll read a little bit of what I wrote in the last couple of days and do the absolute bare minimum. And so just having that framework to be like, not every day is going to be a green light day. We love a green light day, take advantage of them when they happen, but most of the time you're probably going to be in yellow. And so acknowledging that can be like, okay, so what does a realistic yellow light day look like? What is fair to expect of myself? on those days. So that is super helpful. And then so we've talked a little bit about like energy fluctuations too. ⁓ A lot of writing advice just does not account for people with variable energy, right? If you're neurodivergent, if you're chronically ill, if you are a caretaker, if you are disabled in any way, you know, there are all sorts of demands on our energy that can lead to these fluctuations. And so like, Monica Hay: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Bailey Lang: let that be part of your practice, right? That can factor into the red light, yellow light, green light setup. And it can also be really helpful to do some type of cyclical planning. So it can, I often encourage people to like do a little bit of time and energy tracking, ⁓ spend a couple of weeks just noting down where is your time going? What time of day do you tend to feel really energetic? When are you worn out? Right? So you can start to notice patterns. Monica Hay: Yeah. Mmm. Bailey Lang: and say, OK, know early in the week I have a lot of energy. I've come off the weekend. I've gotten some rest. I'm more peppy. Early in the week might be better for you to try to write. So there are things that you can do with cyclical energy planning that can account for those sorts of fluctuations that a really, really rigid writing schedule may not. So that's just a handful of ideas I hope you've Monica Hay: Yeah. Those are amazing. No, I love it. Bailey Lang: Yeah, I hope there's something in there that is useful for folks. Monica Hay: I know that there are some people who, when they heard like tracking stuff, they're like, ⁓ But I always tell people, there's a lot of resistance to it, but I always tell people that you can't shift what you don't know, right? Like it's kind of, if you don't know the situation of where your energy is dipping, like what you're spending your time on, you can't really make changes. And so it's worth it just for a few weeks. I know it's annoying for a minute. Bailey Lang: No, never, yeah, I get a lot of resistance to that. Right. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: I wonder if there's a way that people can see it less as like, have to do this annoying task of tracking my time and more of like a kind version of it, like a one that feels more like a devotion. Because I think it's very helpful. I've done it before. Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's, I... Yeah. it makes a huge difference, right? Just being able to see the patterns can be really, really transformational. So I think, yeah, it can be very frustrating to do time tracking. I've had people say, like, I have to, like, track my time for my job, and I don't want this to feel like I'm at work. Like, it doesn't have to. You could do, you know, make a sticker chart with it. Do, like, get some colored pencils and make a graph. Like, it does not have to be filling out a spreadsheet. You can make it fun. So, yeah, let's... let that be something that feels enjoyable but that also gives you really useful information at the end. Monica Hay: Yes. Yes, I love when I see writers, sorry, I have in my eye, probably a cat hair as usual. I love when I see them ⁓ create like word count trackers where they draw something and they get to fill it in and stuff like that. I think that's really lovely because it just makes it fun, right? Like instead of doing this boring, like, I have to go like punish myself by putting down the lack of words. Like you get to just be like, I get to color and I get to do these fun things to make it kind of gamified. ⁓ I that. Bailey Lang: You Yeah. Right. Yeah, same. Monica Hay: So it's so funny. Am I hearing the ice cream truck? It's funny. It's like 50 degrees here for... I'm trying to think of what that would be in Celsius. I don't know, guys. don't know. Sorry. Europeans, you can look it up. I'm sorry. You'd think I'd know this by now living here for two and a half years. I have a question that maybe is a little bit in the weeds. Bailey Lang: Ha ha ha! Love it. Monica Hay: And if you don't feel like you can answer, we can always take this part out of the podcast if you're like, I can't deal with that question. I asked this kind of out of a selfish reason, because this is kind of how I am as a writer, but why do some writers only access ideas while they're drafting instead of outlining? I hear this a lot from a lot of neurodiverse people, less so from neurotypical writers. Bailey Lang: Hmm. Interesting. Monica Hay: They, it's very interesting. I have noticed like some near-typical writers are the same, but like so many of my clients are like, yeah, I just don't, like I have to be actively in the process of creation of a scene or characters or actually create any like really good ideas or like to have my creativity actually come forth. ⁓ And I'm very curious if you think this has to do with the way our brains work. or not. Bailey Lang: Yeah, I mean, it very well could. ⁓ Particularly if that's like a pattern that you notice ⁓ kind of across the board. Yeah, I don't know why that would be the case, but I certainly think that it could be. And as with a lot of things, like for neurodivergent people, when you notice something like that, I think our impulse is often like, what's wrong with us? You know, Why are we doing this thing this weird, bad, wrong way that the neurotypicals aren't doing it? And I think it's a good opportunity to be like, OK, if this is a fairly common pattern for neurodivergent writers, how do we communicate that? And how do we make space for that and give that to people as a legitimate option and say, hey, OK, if outlining is not working for you, if you find that you are getting stuck on this phase, here's a different thing to try. Monica Hay: Bye! Bailey Lang: go write a scene, go get into the draft, go mess around and see what comes up. And that just may be what works for you, right? And that's a neutral fact then. It's just a different way of writing. ⁓ Yeah, I don't, I cannot speak to like why that would happen. ⁓ But I like, it doesn't mean that it's bad or wrong that it does. It just is a thing, right? And so Monica Hay: Yeah. Bailey Lang: It's a lot of the work that I do, particularly with neurodivergent writers, is that kind of permission giving of like, if this is what works for you, then you're allowed to do it. Which is often shocking for people to hear that like, ⁓ Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah, I think that permission. I think, yeah, when you say it's shocking for people to hear, think it's funny, was just imagining before this conversation, I had this flashback to one of my teachers from when I was a kid and... how she was so mean. Like she was my English teacher from, I think I was in sixth grade. it's funny because she was like the opposite of permission giving, right? Like she, was, I was really into creative writing at the time and she really didn't like that I was trying to write creatively. She wanted me to be doing like just the assignments and like stop being, stop doing that. And like, we're focused on grammar or we're focused on whatever. I don't even remember exactly like what we were learning in that grade. was a long time ago. But it's, think for me and for a lot of neurodiverse creatives, this permission giving is surprisingly revolutionary for us because most of our lives we have been told, no, this isn't how to do it. And it's weird, like, Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Monica Hay: Was there a time ⁓ for you that you felt like, I don't know, ⁓ when you started getting yourself permission and realized how ⁓ mean you were being to yourself, was there a? a time that that ever happened for you when you realized it and you made that shift. Bailey Lang: ⁓ for sure. Yes. Yeah, that's been ⁓ kind of a recurring part of my experience as a writer. So Mm. Monica Hay: Okay, we're back from a technical difficulty, LOL. Yes, I said LOL out loud. I'm a millennial. ⁓ Okay, so we're ⁓ back. ⁓ I was asking Bailey when she gave herself permission or what that looked like and how that's shaped your practice. So I'll let you go from there. Bailey Lang: Yes. Yeah. So I for years was in this cycle of like over-functioning, over-performing, and then extreme burnout. And I could not figure out why I kept getting into that cycle, what was going on. It was not until I figured out that I'm autistic that I could look back at those patterns and recognize, oh, you know, I was, I was Monica Hay: Mm. Bailey Lang: doing like the most all the time with no support and not recognizing that there were supports that I needed. And I probably shouldn't have been doing as much as I was doing. So I, in very quick succession, finished my PhD, graduated from that program, got married, and figured out that I was autistic, like in the period of a few months. And I was like very, very... Monica Hay: Cheers! Bailey Lang: Yes, it was a lot. I after I finished my my dissertation, I was so deeply burned out that the idea of writing anything, it took me years to to really want to be able to write for myself again. Like I was still writing for work. I was doing that all the time. But my own writing practice kind of fell apart for a couple of years. And it was it was learning about my neurotype that helped me. Monica Hay: Yeah. Bailey Lang: understand why I kept getting into these cycles of burnout and recognize like, okay, yes, I am capable of doing work like at this extreme intensity, but the cost of that will come due, right? And that is gonna, I will, you I'll have skill regression, I will be deeply depressed, I won't be able to do the things that I enjoy. And so, Monica Hay: Mmm. Mm. Bailey Lang: of that permission giving for myself was permission to do less, like to have different expectations of myself. To know that like, no, I am not going to do the writing the way that I was doing it because it wasn't healthy, right? It was not good for me to write in that way. So I really had to kind of rebuild my approach to writing from the ground up with this recognition that like, Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Mm. Bailey Lang: Yeah, a lot of the conventional writing advice simply is not gonna work for me because my brain and my body do not function that way. ⁓ And so once I gave myself permission to do things differently, to do less, literally, like physically do less stuff, I was able to write more. You know, like... Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Bailey Lang: ⁓ I don't get into those cycles of burnout anymore. I'm able to do stuff much more sustainably, which means that over the long term, I actually produce more writing. And so that's been a really big realization that constantly going until I hit a wall, and then I need all of this time to recover, and I never really get back to the level that I was working at. I don't have to do things. Monica Hay: Yeah. Bailey Lang: that way, right? Like, I don't have to be going and going and going until I hit the wall. I can just go ⁓ at a different pace, and it's going to feel a lot better and be a lot more fun. So that has been, I would say, like the bulk of my 30s has been working on that and like learning those lessons. I still don't get it perfect, right? Like, I still, ⁓ it's hard sometimes to look back Monica Hay: Yeah. Mmm. Bailey Lang: particularly like at my PhD program years and be like, man, like I was really doing the most then. Like I was doing a lot. And to feel like, you know, there is a grief in letting go of the idea that I could do that. ⁓ But looking at the cost of that rate is always a stark reminder of like why that was not a great way. to do things ⁓ and just being really gentle with myself in that process. ⁓ And that's taken a lot of work, that's taken a lot of therapy, that's taken a lot of time just getting to that place of first neutrality about, I can't do this. It will eventually kill me to work like this. ⁓ And then to a place of acceptance and even joy in... Monica Hay: Yeah. Haha. Bailey Lang: I get to do things in a way that feel really good now. Monica Hay: Mmm. Yeah, I'm curious since I know some people who are listening are probably thinking this. When you were in your PhD program, would you have been able to shift your kind of output and expectations from the program to help you in any burnout stage that you were in? Or would you have kind of forced into a certain type of output? Bailey Lang: Yeah, that's a, it's a really good question. I think there are probably... things I would have done differently, right? If I'd known during my PhD that I'm autistic, there are definitely things that I would have done differently. I would not have been trying to speak as much. I spoke at a of conferences. I wrote a number of peer-reviewed papers. I probably would have pulled back on some of the extra stuff that I was doing to preserve energy for the main projects. As far as the actual workload of the PhD program, Monica Hay: Yeah. Bailey Lang: academia likes to portray itself as very accommodating to neurodivergent people, and that's largely bullshit. So no, don't think, I don't think that, you know, requesting accommodations would have gone particularly well. I don't, I don't know, you know, I can't go back and say that for sure. I watching people who are neurodivergent going through Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah. Bailey Lang: programs and looking at kind of the barriers that get thrown up to them, I think it would have been very challenging. Monica Hay: Yeah. Yeah, it's funny because I talk so much shit about the education system and I, know, people are like, but you went to Berkeley and like given masters and I'm like, yeah, that's why I talk shit about the education system and people. Bailey Lang: Right. Once you've gone through it and you see what goes on, you're like, man, this is crap. Monica Hay: It's crap and I think people have, it's very easy for people to kind of look at this like ivory tower and to want to take part in it because there's a prestige to it, right? Like I didn't choose Berkeley for no reason, right? But at the same time, we give these institutions so much respect when they really don't fucking deserve it because they treat people like shit, right? And I think like, yes. Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, it's a meat grinder. Monica Hay: And I think when I say that to people and they're like, you know, still kind of, I'm not saying the education system is all bad. I'm very grateful for my education. But man, when I hear stories like this and it like makes my blood boil thinking about how little protections there are and like what's expected. And then I see these like stupid fucking think pieces. Sorry, I'm getting on my Monica tangent. Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. You Monica Hay: What was it? There was like a think piece like a month ago that came up that was like, ⁓ universities in America have an accommodations problem. Like too many people are asking for accommodations. And I'm like, maybe they should fucking change the system. So fewer people need accommodations. Maybe that's a fucking sign that needs something needs to change in the system. If so many people need accommodations, that's not an individual problem. That's the institutional problem. Bailey Lang: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yep, that is a systemic issue. And is it like, particularly for neurodivergent people, right? Like it is, there is so much stigma, there's so much stigma, so much shame, and so little support. There is so, so little support. And that's, you know, and this is, it's particularly galling, I think, because of how much higher ed tries to portray itself as like, ⁓ we're the, we're the supportive ones. Monica Hay: Yep. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Bailey Lang: ⁓ And it's like once you're in that, universities are deeply conservative places in multiple senses of that word. It's exhausting. Monica Hay: ⁓ yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yep. I'll stop on my tangent because I could like complain about this for hours. feel like I, yeah, people are like, ⁓ but you like went to this university and like your education got you where it is. And yes, that's those, like those two things can be true. I'm grateful for it, but I also have a lot of qualms. So anyway, ⁓ I try to think of my last question. Bailey Lang: Ha ha ha. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yep. Monica Hay: before we wrap up. So if somebody is listening and feels hopeless about their writing practice right now, who might be a neurodiversion person, what would you want them to know? Bailey Lang: Yeah, I think I want to go back to that idea of permission, right? This idea that you are allowed to build a writing practice that works for you, and it does not have to look like what works for somebody else. There is no such thing as a one-size-fits-all writing practice, particularly when you are neurodivergent, right? We need different things, and that is... a neutral fact. It does not mean there's anything wrong with us. It does not mean we're broken. It does not mean we cannot be phenomenal writers. But we need to figure out what is going to be supportive for us to be able to do our best work and then access that to whatever degree that we can. ⁓ It's, you know, your writing practice gets to be something that you enjoy. It gets to be something that feels fun. It gets to be something that you want to show up for, and it does not have to be miserable and painful, and you don't have to beat yourself up about it. So yeah, it's if you need a permission slip to do whatever weird thing works for you, that here is your permission slip. I give you permission. Do the thing that works for you. And if you are struggling to figure out what does work for you, talk to as many writers as you can, right? It's try to... Monica Hay: Yeah. Bailey Lang: to get the broadest possible spectrum of options so that you have things to try and experiment with. Because sometimes you might, like, yeah, you might hear somebody say, ⁓ this worked really well for me, and then you try it and it doesn't work for you. That doesn't mean that you are wrong or that you did something wrong. It just means that thing did not work and you get to try something else. So that's, yeah, just like so much permission. Monica Hay: Yep. Yeah. I love that. I also think sometimes it doesn't work the first time, but if you try it a few times, it starts to work. I've noticed that in my own practice. Like I have to get comfortable with things that might not feel comfortable and then it works after I've done it a few times. So maybe don't knock it until you've tried it a few times. A lot of the times I feel like my brain will just be like, well. Bailey Lang: Thank Mm-hmm. Monica Hay: this isn't gonna work for me. And then it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy, I'll do it and then I'll be like, it didn't work. But then if I, yeah, I didn't like it or something. But then if I try it to, know, give it a fair chance, then sometimes it might work. And so I would say like, if it doesn't work the first time, you could always try again and see what happens. Okay, so I'm curious, how do people find you? Where can people find you and stalk you on the interwebs? Bailey Lang: I didn't like it. It didn't feel good. Mm-hmm. Yes. Yes, I would love to have people come visit me. So my website is literary-witch.com. So that is where you can find a little bit more about me, how I got to this work and learn about kind of the ways that I work with writers. So I have a group program that's starting in the fall and I work one-on-one with folks. lots of fun stuff there. And then if you would like to stay in touch with me, you can find my newsletter there as well. It's called Ink and Alchemy. It comes out typically once a month around the new moon. It's very witchy. ⁓ Lots of, yeah, lots of good stuff in the newsletter. So there's always sort of like a main topic. And then I try to provide a lot of resources, practical, magical. writing advice, book recommendations, and occasionally some really, really cool author interviews. So lot of fun to be had over at Ink and Alchemy. Monica Hay: it. Thank you so much for joining us. Bailey, this has been amazing. Bailey Lang: Yeah. Thank you for having me. This was awesome.