Latest / Galaxies and Goddesses: A Sci-Fi & Fantasy Bookcast / Return of the King: Epic Battles, Healing Hands, and Returning to the Shire
Transcript
- Return of the King Andrea: I’m Andrea. Elizabeth: And I'm Elizabeth. Andrea: Join us as we chat about sci-fi and fantasy books and beyond. Elizabeth: Looking for a little escape from reality. So are we. Andrea: Welcome to Galaxies and Goddesses. Elizabeth: On this week's episode, we're talking about The Lord of the Rings and the epic conclusion to The Lord of the Rings trilogy in the final book, The Return of the King. Andrea: Specifically, we'll be chatting about standout moments from the final battle for Middle-earth, some of our favorite character arcs, and what makes this ending so memorable. Elizabeth: Along with the cost of the quest for Frodo and what it means for the hobbits to return home after everything they've been through. Andrea: Let's get started. Andrea: So if you're just joining us, we've been making our way through The Lord of the Rings trilogy. Elizabeth: Which all starts with The Fellowship of the Ring when Frodo Baggins leaves the Shire with a very dangerous piece of jewelry and a group of friends determined to help him destroy it. Andrea: Then in The Two Towers, the fellowship splits up, the stakes get much bigger, and Frodo and Sam continue their journey towards Mordor. Elizabeth: Which then brings us to the grand finale. Andrea: The Return of the King! So Frodo was captured at the end of The Two Towers, and that's where I remember it being a big cliffhanger, because the shocking point is that Sam actually puts on the Ring. Andrea: I didn't remember, or I, not that I didn't remember. That's not in the movie. In the movie Sam never puts the ring on, but in the book he does. And so I remember that being the ending to The Two Towers. The beginning of Return of the King, it goes back to the other story arc. Elizabeth: Yeah, I feel like it's not quite as rigidly structured as The Two Towers. Elizabeth: Maybe because they're closer, as they're getting into Mordor. I don't know. It, it just doesn't feel quite as rigidly separated. Andrea: It doesn't feel as separate because even though Frodo and Sam don't come back until the second half of the book, after that, they do rejoin. You know, after the ring is destroyed, they rejoin together. So it doesn't feel like two totally different pieces, but it does start that way. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: So the end of The Two Towers, it leaves off with Sam and Frodo being separated and Frodo is captured, and Sam's like, what am I gonna do? And you don't get to find out what happens there until you finish all the battles in Gondor, at Minas Tirith the White City, right? But the action started in The Two Towers and then it just doesn't stop, and it still keeps going throughout the beginning of The Return of the King. Elizabeth: It is a lot of action. But one thing that I felt, once again, not to make this always about the difference between the book and the movie, like with other action sequences in The Fellowship of the Ring and the Two Towers, the action sequence takes up more of the film time than it does the book time. And that's definitely the case here. Elizabeth: The big battle on the, what is it, the fields of Pelennor, where Éowyn kills the leader of the Ringwraiths that battle. Elizabeth: That takes up a lot of film time. And they get really into a lot of the details. You know, there's a lot that was embellished in the movie that wasn't necessarily in the book, like the oliphaunts. And each oliphaunt carrying what looks to be dozens of warriors. And then at one point, like Legolas is swinging around one of the oliphaunts and then like takes down the whole thing and he like slides down the trunk all, you know, graceful finish at the end as the oliphaunt is crumbling to the ground and he lands gracefully on the ground just fine. Elizabeth: That doesn't happen in the book, you know, but the battle still feels epic, but the amount of screen time that the battle takes up in the film is a lot more than the book time. It takes up in the book. Andrea: And kind of the reverse happens too, right? Like there's more action that's embellished in the movies, versus in the book it's really the quiet moments that stand out and the additional background, and history, and details that fill in a more complete understanding of what's going on. Andrea: So, you know, this goes back to why I was so impressed with Merry and Pippin in The Two Towers, because you find out more about them, but they both pledged themselves to the steward of Gondor and King Theoden, and they both become soldiers or… Elizabeth: Esteemed members of the guard. Andrea: Yes. And Merry and Pippin in The Return of the King finally find their purpose and their role, and they grow into themselves. Andrea: They've made a, a big character shift from not really knowing their role in the world to dedicating themselves to something and standing up for that, and then eventually leading others by the end of the book. We'll, we'll get to that. Andrea: So yeah, the lighting of the beacons of Gondor in the movie is this huge thing. And then in the book it's already been lit because he's been looking in the Palantir and he knows that there's enemies coming. And Merry and Pippin didn't have to do that at all. Elizabeth: It's really hard to not about the movies because the movies. Are so good and were so big when they came out and are still big to this day. Elizabeth: A lot more people are gonna see the film than unfortunately read the book. But then even, I find this in myself, this is the case oftentimes with books versus movies, that I don't have a particularly vivid imagination. When there is an image, then the image from the film is sort of what use in my mind to play out the story. So I may think of, or I may envision the actor that played that character. I'm envisioning that actor doing the action that's described in the story. And so, yeah, it's kind of hard to not make the comparisons of course. Elizabeth: And at the time that I read The Lord of the Rings first time and watching the movies, I always thought that they were equally good. I think they both excel in certain areas over the other, but still, like in most cases, the books are better. Andrea: Yes. Andrea: I am glad I saw the movies first because it made me want to read the books. And now as I'm reading the books, I realize there's so much more and I just enjoy it even more. Whereas I wonder if I had read the books first, if I would've been disappointed by the movie. And this way, by watching the movie first I get to enjoy them both, like I can say, “oh, they're both like a hundred percent great”, without realizing like there's just so much more. You just don't even know how good it is until you read the books. Yeah. And you told me that that's what you told me. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: You were right Elizabeth. Elizabeth: Also in general, I like to actually watch the movie first, and people will say, well, doesn't that spoil it? And I mean, no. If it's a good movie, then know most of the time it's gonna be a really good book and it's usually gonna be better. So it's like the better way to the story because you like the movie and then the book is even better. Elizabeth: Whereas, if you like the book and then the movies more often can be kind of disappointing. So then it's kind of a letdown when you go watch the movie. Whereas this way it's, it's all positive. That it just gets better and better as you watch the movie first and then read the book. Andrea: So going back to the book, and instead of this debate between books and movies or what's the right order to read and, and watch them. They do start to just all run together in your head, but what moments stand out the most to you, Elizabeth, when you think back about The Return of the King? Elizabeth: A scene that I sort of forgot about since the last time I read the books. I suppose because each of the books do seem to get better and better. I think The Two Towers is better than The Fellowship of the Ring, and Return of the King is better than the two towers. There is this like sense of urgency to The Return of the King. The story itself and the battles and what all is happening and the, the sense of what needs to happen to get to the end, there is this sense of urgency. And so maybe part of it, why I didn't remember this part is that maybe I read it really fast. Elizabeth: It's not the exact moment that Aragorn enters Gondor, or enters Minas Tirith, but it's the first moment when the people around him, like the towns folk and the people who don't actually know who he actually is when they realize that he is the king. And it's like prophesied that the return of the king of Gondor will be known he heals people. Like his powers of healing is what gives him away as the king. And so, when Faramir doesn't die, but was real close to dying, and Éowyn kills the leader of the ringwraiths, and Merry is also severely injured from that battle. Elizabeth: And so all three of them are in the House of Healing. Aragorn walks in and knows what to do, how to help them, and he needs a specific plant. They tell somebody to go out and get. It's like a common plant that no one realizes has such healing powers. And then he says some words over them, and he uses this plant somehow, and he heals them. And so then, when one of the sort of, once again, towns, folk staff or whatever in the House of Healing recognizes that he's doing what he's doing, then they know that he's the king. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: That really stood out 'cause that I think was a very poignant moment. Andrea: Well, and this book being called The Return of the King, Aragorn really does have his moment where he shines. He heals the people. He brings the realms together. The sword is reforged. It is really all him taking his place as king. And I've heard that's one of the reasons he could be considered one of the true heroes. Andrea: Yeah. He really has more depth in the book than he does in the movie. Andrea: I liked all the scenes that they described in the House of Healing. There's a lot happening there in that House of Healing. I just felt continually amazed. Andrea: I was just like, oh, just tell me more. Like, I could read a whole book of just what's going on in the House of Healing. Who else is here that needs to be healed? What are their stories? Elizabeth: Falling in love in the house of healing. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: Healing their hearts as well as their bodies. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: As far as a scene that I'd forgotten since the last time I read it was also that Éowyn and Faramir fall in love with each other. Andrea: I loved that. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: I really liked that. Elizabeth: Pretty sure that’s not in the movie. Andrea: That’s not in the movie at all. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: I think in the movie they might just like show up together at the coronation or the wedding that Aragorn and Arwen have like, oh, maybe they're holding hands or something. That's not in the movie at all. Andrea: And it's such a beautiful love story. Andrea: So Aragorn has his moment, but also Éowyn. I'm speechless because she was such a great character in this book. She goes off to war as a undercover knight she was told not to go, but she's been training her whole life to be a knight and to defend the realm, and she doesn't wanna be left behind. Andrea: In the movie, I thought of it as like, oh, she's just like a pouty “woman”. She's just interested in Aragorn and she's doing what she's told. But in the book, she comes across much more confident. She knows what she's doing and because she is not a man, because she's a woman, she has more space on her horse and that's where she can bring Merry. Andrea: She is fulfilling her role, by bringing him. Through doing that, the two of them take down the leader of the ringwraiths. And this goes back to the moment when you find out that the sword, or knife, that Merry uses to kill the ringwraith is a special sword, or knife, that he brought from the barrows. Andrea: Remember? Elizabeth: Oh yeah. The, the barrow downs? Andrea: The barrow downs. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: When they were attacked and Tom Bombadil comes to save the day. When they were attacked by barrow wight. Andrea: Right. So finally in Return of the King, you understand why that part of the book was even there. Because if they hadn't gotten attacked by the barrow-wights, Merry never would've gotten the sword and he wouldn't have been able to kill the leader of the ringwraith, because only that type of magical sword had the power to kill the ringwraith. Andrea: And I was just like, amazing. Elizabeth: The pieces falling into place! Andrea: All the pieces coming together! It's just this puzzle making such a beautiful image. I loved it. I loved it! Elizabeth: Oh, there was one part that I’m definitely gonna bring up. And it's with Éowyn and Faramir they might still be in the house of healing, and they like maybe go for a stroll, they go for a walk, or something. Elizabeth: “And so they stood on the walls of the city of Gondor and a great wind rose and blue and their hair, raven and golden streamed out, mingling in the air.” Elizabeth: So the two of them are standing there on, on the walls, looking out over Gondor and both of their heads of hair of are getting mingled together. I thought it was quite a, a sweeping image. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: Quite a fine little touch by Tolkien with their hair… Andrea: Hmm. Elizabeth: Mingling in the wind. Anyway. Elizabeth: I didn't remember that they fell in love. I didn't remember, you know what really happened with Faramir. 'Cause then also Faramir could also be argued as one of the heroes of the, you know, maybe not say the main hero of the story, but an incredible hero in the story. Elizabeth: And then he's granted his own castle… Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: And they get married and live happily ever after in their own little domain. Andrea: Yeah. I love that Éowyn was the shield maiden with a happy ending. She had a strong desire to fight and didn't like being trapped. If you were to replace the actress in the movies with Brianne of Tarth, right? Andrea: If you pictured more of a, a serious knight, I think that would totally change your impression of that character. And instead she's presented as this incapable soft woman. And that's not what she is in the book. In the book she is opinionated and strong and defiant and I just loved that strong female character. Andrea: That wasn't just interested in finding a man. She was interested in Aragorn. She can be interested in Aragorn and still be a strong woman. Elizabeth: Yeah, that's right. You can have feelings for somebody and still be a strong independent woman. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: You can have some unrequited love and still be strong, independent. Andrea: That didn't define her in the book, so I really liked that. Elizabeth: Yeah. Elizabeth: Another thing that I had forgotten about since the last time I read it and I found myself asking this question of myself as I was reading it, was what happens to Saruman? In the movies, nothing. I don't think it's just addressed at all. Elizabeth: It just kind of ends and you, you're supposed to just kind of forget about him. But I love that there is a definite ending, not to spoil anything. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: But there is a definitely, it does not leave that as a, you know, a loose thread. That definitely is tied up at the end. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: He really gets his comeuppance in a great way. Elizabeth: I have to say. Andrea: So there's the idea, that this just also reinforces Tolkien's ideas of redemption and almost karma in a sense of they meet Saruman on the road. The Ring has been destroyed. Andrea: The battle is over. The king has been appointed in Gondor and Gandalf and the hobbits run into Saruman as they're heading back to the Shire. And he just is this ragged beggar with Wormtongue at his heel. They give him a second chance again. And I don't know what he says back to them, but they let him go. Andrea: They find Saruman on again, on the road, and they let him go, again. But that's not the last time you see Saruman. Andrea: Frodo and Sam, they never are violent towards him, even when they have the opportunity to be. When Saruman and Wormtongue are outnumbered, they never are violent. Right? Towards, towards Saruman. Elizabeth: Arguably, they have the opportunity and every reason… Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: To be violent towards him, but they don’t. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: Also, I think the, pipe weed, the tobacco, like comes up again. Andrea: Yes Elizabeth: Like we talked about in The Two Towers, there's that bit the prologue, concerning pipe weed. Elizabeth: And I asked myself the question like, why is this in here? It feels like it almost belongs in appendix. Why is this the prologue? Why are you like, sort of forcing us to read this? And is it all an elaborate setup to enjoy how much they would enjoy the fact that they found all this high quality pipe weed hidden away in Isengard? Saruman like, brings it up to them that he knows that they've raided his pipe weed store and, and, or maybe they try to give him back the pouch? Andrea: They give him back some of his own pipe weed. Elizabeth: Yeah. Elizabeth: Yeah, once again, as I was reading that, I was like, “the pipe weed again!” Tolkien really wanted to just sort of set up backstory, I guess, or add some depth to these scenes about pipe weed. Andrea: It was so much fun doing our Lord of the Rings meetup at Emerald City Comic Con. And one of the things that I said just offhand was, well, I think I know how the story ends and I thought I knew how the book ended, but there is so much more that happens in the book after the Ring gets destroyed. Andrea: And so I didn't really know how the story ended. I was wrong. Elizabeth: Somewhere I remember looking up and and thinking, wow, there's still 80 pages left in this book. And I was thinking to myself, well, it seems like it's kind of over that point, but there's still 80 pages left. And so I don't remember exactly what was happening then. Maybe, they're all leaving Gondor. And Aragorn has been coronated, and all the things have happened and it's like, well, it's kind of over. It's like, well, but there's still 80 pages. Elizabeth: It's kind of a lot. Andrea: You get to say goodbye to the characters slowly, and that's kind of nice. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: You do see that Legolas and Gimli go off and, and go back to visit the places that they said they would, and… You know, you say goodbye to them one by one. Elizabeth: Oh yeah, yeah. Andrea: And Bilbo comes back, you get to say goodbye to Bilbo. Elizabeth: Like there are truly no loose ends. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Elizabeth: Like he ties up every single little thing at the end. And they return to the Shire. There's a lot that happens after they return to the Shire too. Like first of all, the Shire has sort of been taken over by guys that I think most of them were sort of followers of Saruman. It seems like he kind of had all of his henchmen… Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: And had been doing it for a really long time too, actually to, to like creep in, you know, sort of like an insidious fashion to kind of take over everything in the Shire and then slowly kind of demolish it all. So they have to get rid of the bad guys. And I feel like this is also a part too where you get to see Merry and Pippin really shine when they go back to the Shire. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: There's kind of a little mini battle almost to get rid of all of the bad guys. Elizabeth: Pippin goes down to like, is it Tookville? To gather all of the Tooks. And so then he kind of comes back with his own, like platoon, his own regiment of Tooks just in time as, as the battle's getting going. Elizabeth: Also, I love that Merry and Pippin… once again, these little details that, that you miss in a movie. 'cause you just can't, there's just not enough time. There's not enough film space to tip in all these things. But Merry and Pippin, since they drank the Ent water, they're bigger! Andrea: Yes. They're taller. Elizabeth: The grow a little bit! Yeah. So I mean, not only like their body size is larger, but they're also in, sort of spirit and in life they're, they're larger than they were before they left, you know, with their, their sort of newfound confidence and, and skills and, leadership and these things that they come back. Elizabeth: They're, they're just all around bigger. Also physically bigger. That was great. Andrea: Well, and, Frodo's story is a little bit sad, but I think it's an important one in that it probably draws from Tolkien's experience and knowing people that actually had been in the war. It's like you come back from war and part of you doesn't ever quite leave it. Frodo seems like he has basically PTSD like trauma from his experience and it continues to haunt him. He never fully healed from when he was stabbed. And then the Ring is its own, kind of psychological trauma. So that's sort of sad. He did all the right things, but in a way he was still defeated in time by, by the war. Andrea: It was just kind of sad. Elizabeth: Yeah, it’s, it’s bittersweet too, like the, the very, very end, like the last couple of pages are actually quite bittersweet… Andrea: Mm-hmm. Elizabeth: As Frodo goes with the elves to the gray havens. Elizabeth: And what's so interesting about that scene is that it's a surprise to everyone else. Frodo knows that he's going, but the other hobbits don't know. Sam doesn't know Merry and Pippin, don't know. He just says Sam, you know, get your stuff. We're going on an adventure, and I think Sam thinks they're going to Rivendell or something. Elizabeth: And, and then they very quickly meet up with the, the group of elves that are heading west to sail off to the Gray Havens. And so they purposefully meet up with them on the road. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: And that’s when Sam first finds out is when they meet up with the elves, that that's that Frodo's gonna go. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: Yeah, it's, it's, it's a surprise and really bittersweet . Andrea: Yeah, Elizabeth: And really sad. Andrea: Maybe it was never said explicitly, but I think Sam has the idea that something is going on. He might not know exactly what, where Frodo's going, but he has a a sense of it. I don't know if he was completely surprised. Elizabeth: Yeah. Or knows that like Frodo probably isn't happy in the Shire. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Elizabeth: And there's just something that's just incomplete his being back home and maybe kind of knowing that that something's gonna change. Andrea: Right. Elizabeth: But my impression was that he didn't know that it was gonna be forever, that Frodo was Middle-earth forever to never to see him again. Andrea: Yeah. Sam's story is sort of the bit of light and hope that he gets to replant and rebuild the Shire. Elizabeth: And he marries Rosie and they have like 13 children and it's delightful. Yeah. Andrea: Yeah. And that they wanted to name their first child after Frodo, but their first child was a girl. So he’s like, “What should we name her?” And then they choose to name her after a flower, but specifically the flower that grows in Lothlorian. Right? Eleanor, which is a really nice name, I think. Elizabeth: And also a really sweet girl's name. Andrea: Yeah. It makes me wonder if like there was a spike in the name Eleanor after in 1950 something. Elizabeth: Totally. Andrea: Seems like that could be possible. Elizabeth: On a side note, about this book and my reading of this book this time around. The copy that I read most of the story in, was my sister's copy, which is actually the copy that I read 20 years ago, which is kind of cool to read the exact same copy of this book. But I did not finish it in time before I left on sort of worldwide travels. And since it's my sister's book and I didn't wanna be carrying around this book, very heavy, thick book. So I left that copy and I thought to myself, you know what? I bet I can easily find other copies of this book to just finish it somewhere. So the next copy of this book that I read was a used copy that I did not purchase. I just took it off the shelf and sat down in the bookstore and read it for a little while, was a used copy from Powell's Books in Portland. So I read, I think another chapter Powell's, and then I went to the Portland Public Library read another two chapters of a different copy that was just sitting on the shelf at the library. Elizabeth: Randomly, a woman sat down across from me. She happened to be reading The Return of the King and I looked up at her and I said to her, “Oh, look at that.” Elizabeth: We're reading the same book. Clearly she had read the book before because she just said, “Oh, I just love this book so much.” And she wasn't like reading it in the middle. She was like starting on page one. Elizabeth: She was the one that, I think she said something along the lines of, I don't know how it even came up now about mithril, like the coat of mithril that Frodo is wearing. I think she was the one that said, “Oh yeah, isn't that so cool that that actually was made for Legolas?” It's like, wait, what? So then I had to just deep dive, and I think I found it on like a Reddit page about this, and I don't know that it's ever stated by Tolkien. I think this Reddit page, this person was like, by process of elimination, only person that this could have been made for is Legolas, like deep, Lord of the Rings lore, like probably Silmarillion type stuff. Elizabeth: Maybe some of the other type books like that. Anyway, so she was the one that said that and the reason that it fits the Hobbits is because it was meant to be for Legolas as like an elf prince and then it fits the halflings. Elizabeth: Anyway, random. But I still didn't finish it and I think I had maybe one chapter left and I put it back on the shelf and I said to myself, you know what? I can still find another copy somewhere. I know I can. Elizabeth: So it was in the San Francisco airport. I was in the bookstore in the airport, standing at the bookshelf reading the last chapter. And it made me cry a little bit. Like I shed one tear from each eye. Andrea: Aww. Elizabeth: One tear from each eye. Yeah. One tear from each eye, in the bookstore in the San Francisco airport, I was that person in the airport, crying to herself this book. But yeah, I don't think anybody saw me. Andrea: I don't think I cried reading the end, but I did get very heartfelt. Yes. Didn't cry, but it was, it was close. Andrea: I did like towards the end where they had the meta storytelling elements. So the fact that Frodo wrote a book or finished the story. What is it called? Elizabeth: I was about to say there and back again, but that's Bilbo’s. I think about his adventure. Andrea: Well, in a lot of ways, I, I mean, this goes back to The Hobbit being there and back again, but Lord of the Rings, they go there and back again. It's a full cycle, right? Or full circle. They go out and they come back. It doesn't just end at Mount Doom. It doesn't end when Aragorn becomes king. It ends once they're all the way back to the Shire. Andrea: And their story has been recorded. It's a very complete ending. But yeah, I liked when Frodo hands over his manuscripts to Sam and there's a few blank pages at the end, and it's like the story's never really over. Everybody gets to add their part to the story. I thought that was really neat. Andrea: So they have in Bilbo's hand: My Diary, My Unexpected Journey There And Back Again And What Happened After. And then in Frodo's hand: The Downfall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King. Andrea: I think the end of the book is really touching and I really like that they give it a seriousness to it. But I enjoy the humor that they had to when when Sam and Frodo are talking about their story and they're like, oh, they're gonna call this the story of Nine Fingered Frodo and the Ring of Doom, that title would've just given everything away. Andrea: Nine Fingered Frodo in the Ring of Doom. Elizabeth: I mean not necessarily. You don't, I mean, okay, sure. That means that obviously he probably loses a finger, but he doesn't say how he loses the finger. Andrea: Yeah. Anyway, so I enjoy those meta storytelling moments. Andrea: Do you feel like you have a book hangover or was it just the right amount? It was like what you're looking forward to and you got that satisfying end. Elizabeth: Is that what we should call it, is the book hangover? 'Cause I've also had it referred to as post book withdrawals. Andrea: Okay. Elizabeth: That when the book is so good that then done and you just sort of like get this sense of defeat, like, well, what could I possibly read after that? Elizabeth: Yeah. Elizabeth: I probably did the first time around, because I definitely finished it and I specifically remember thinking to myself, “I'm going to read this again.” This time, maybe part of it has to do with the fact that I didn't race through the ending because I just didn't have a copy with me to be able to race through the ending. And so I think by doing it that way, kind of stretched it out a little bit. So I think maybe that might have helped. Also, since it wasn't all new, it maybe wasn't quite as impactful by the end, maybe because I kind of… Andrea: Mm-hmm. Elizabeth: Remembered the whole story and knew the whole thing. And I did not finish it the second time around, thinking to myself, “I'm going to read this again.” I might read it again under the right circumstances, but I didn't feel as much of this impulse, like, “Oh, I'm definitely gonna read this again.” So, I don't know that I did necessarily, but I probably did first time around. What about you? Elizabeth: Do you, do you have a, are you having post book withdrawals? Did you finish it today or last night? Andrea: I finished it last night. I finished it last night, and when I finished the book, I wanted to stand up and give an applause. Andrea: It wasn't withdrawals or, or depression. It was like, just good job. Like, congratulations J.R.R. Tolkien. It was an amazing story, and I feel like I understand why people call him the professor. I mean, they call him the professor because he was literally a professor at Oxford. But also, I feel like through reading Lord of the Rings he is teaching you how to write an epic fantasy story. Andrea: It's like finishing reading a textbook because it is so well done and so well realized. The ending is so sweet and there's no loose ends. So, I ended, not necessarily with a book hangover, but just a feeling of appreciation. I am glad I finally read this book. Andrea: It was an amazing book, and I'm calling it a book singular, because even though it's published in three volumes, it's one complete story. There are events that happen in The Fellowship of the Ring that don't make sense or really play into the story until Return of the King, which is the third book. Andrea: So unless you read all three books, it's not a complete story. So it's really one book. It's not a trilogy. That's what I realized at the end. I'm like, no, it's not a trilogy. My copy the story ended on page 1000 and lemme see… Elizabeth: Eight. 1008. Andrea: Yes! 1008 and that's probably pretty typical. I wanna check with other editions, but 1008. And it is 1008 pages of excellence. It's five stars. Sorry, I jumped the gun. You didn't ask me what I rated it. Elizabeth: Oh, I think we all can just sort of guess what you rate this. If you wanted to give it a standing ovation at the end. Andrea: Yes. Elizabeth: I wanted to stand up and clap. Yeah. It's a good reaction. There I am standing alone in the airport bookstore shedding one single tear from each eye and there's, Andrea sets the book down, stands up and starts clapping. Andrea: To an empty bedroom. Yeah. Elizabeth: He-he, yeah. Elizabeth: Oh, page 1008. I can speak to that. Having read multiple different copies of this book. Elizabeth: So they're not all like that, even though it was still printed in the same font. That's something that is definitely consistent, it seems like from every, edition that I have seen. Elizabeth: Also, just to be clear to everybody, I am not a writer. Elizabeth: I do not think of myself as a writer. I don't write, I don't regularly do that. I've never had thoughts to myself that I am a good writer or this is something I wanna do. I like to read books. Elizabeth: I don't necessarily like to write. But sometimes there are books that you read and I think to myself, huh, maybe I could do this. You read The Lord of the Rings. That's not, that's not a thing that I could do. This is not a book that I could ever write. The level of skill that went into crafting this whole universe I could never do. Andrea: Right. Well, and it wasn't written quickly. It took him a very long time to write it. It wasn't like he just sat down and wrote it in a few weeks. This took years, years of putting this story together. Elizabeth: And clearly was his life's work. Andrea: Mm-hmm. Elizabeth: That's what he studied. He studied languages and taught them and, and mythology and how much he, studied and taught and translated Beowulf. Obviously where these sort of ancient mythologies, how it plays into what he created. Andrea: So there were quite a few other books that were published during J.R.R. Tolkien's time but they weren't as well known and they weren't as long as Lord of the Rings. Elizabeth: But then a lot of stuff was published after he died. so I think that also kind of speaks to it, that he clearly put so much time and effort and craftsmanship into creating this universe. Andrea: Yeah. Greatness should not be rushed, right? And you don't know what's going on in an author's personal life, what other things they may be doing. He wasn't just writing, he was also teaching at the time. And writing takes a lot of time and effort and focus. And if you have a lot of other things going on in your personal life, you might not be able to sit down and focus on writing. Andrea: So, I am extremely grateful that we have the gift of The Lord of the Rings with us, and I am so glad that we got to read it for our podcast. It was time and I don't know if I will read it again in the future. I feel like maybe with my children someday. Andrea: And so, I'm grateful for Lord of the Rings. I'm glad I read it and I don't need more from J.R.R. Tolkien. I'm happy with, where he ended the story. Andrea: He did a great job. No notes. Elizabeth: I'm not hearing a thank you to me. Andrea: Oh, thank you, Elizabeth! Elizabeth: For forcing you to read them now. You're welcome, Andrea. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: It was a good idea. You're right. I'm right. I was right. Elizabeth: Yeah, I don't know. Once again, they were better the second time around, so I would not say that, you know, when you say that, like, well, maybe when, when your kids are older. I think you should just kind of like put a bookmark in that and be like, yeah. Elizabeth: Yeah. Again, I think 20 years is a good amount of time. Give, like, give it 20 years and then 20 years from now I'd be like, “Those are good books. I should read 'em again. Andrea: Yeah. Elizabeth: Well, maybe start with The Hobbit, read The Hobbit with them and see how that goes. Andrea: Yeah, we'll read The Hobbit in 10 years. That sounds like a good plan. Elizabeth: Yeah. Elizabeth: Yeah. Andrea: The Hobbit has been a book that I consistently recommend to any type of reader, because it is accessible and if you enjoy The Hobbit, then you're more likely to enjoy Lord of the Rings. Lord of the Rings, I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to every reader. If you just get through The Fellowship of the Ring and you're not committed to reading the other two books, you might not enjoy it. Andrea: You have to be able to commit. You have to say, okay, I want to read this and I will finish the story. Because if you don't finish the story, you're not gonna like it. You need to read the whole thing. Andrea: When we talked about The Fellowship of the Ring, you wondered if I would change my rating from a four and a half for Fellowship of the Ring, once we finish the series, and… Elizabeth: And you’re going to go back. You’re gonna change it to a five, aren't you? Andrea: Well, with the caveat. Okay. Okay. Because when you finish Return of the King, you realize it's not a trilogy. It's really one book. And if you look at this as one book, it's five stars. Elizabeth: You’re trying to bend the rules here a little bit. Andrea: But it's, it's because I didn't understand. I didn't know. Yeah. Elizabeth: Through your own semantics of defining the book. Andrea: Well, because if, if you look at The Fellowship of the Ring alone, it's not five stars, but it should not be evaluated own it needs to be seen in the entire context of the story. So yes, five stars for Return to the King, five stars for Two Towers and five stars for The Fellowship of the Ring. That's my final rating. Elizabeth: Sure, fine. However you wanna define a trilogy versus not a trilogy. Andrea: Thank you. Andrea: For you is it five stars or is it something beyond five stars? Elizabeth: Okay. Like, like I'm giving it 110% as opposed to a hundred percent? Andrea: Yes. Like infinity stars? Elizabeth: It doesn't work like that. Andrea: Okay. Elizabeth: If we're sticking to our rating scale, it’s five stars. Yeah. Elizabeth: Five stars period. Elizabeth: Unfortunately, that concludes this week's episode. We've reached the end of another cosmic journey on Galaxies and Goddesses. Andrea: Don't worry, the adventure never really ends. There are always more stories to explore and let's be honest, more bookish tangents for us to go on. Elizabeth: But hey, this is part of the fun. If you love today's episode, make sure to subscribe, leave a review, and share the magic. Andrea: Stay tuned for our next episode where we'll be chatting about authors that have been inspired by J.R.R. Tolkien's work and announcing our next trilogy series pick. Elizabeth: And in the meantime, keep your mind fueled by the magic of stories. Andrea: And never stop chasing the worlds waiting for you between the pages. Thanks everyone.