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Ken interviews Judge Barry Kamins. · The Mark Simone Show

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  Speaker 1: This is the Mark Simone Show on seven to ten.
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  Speaker 2: Wi Kin from Mark Today, Here's Ken Rosato.
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  Speaker 3: And it's very good to be with you on this Friday,
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  Speaker 3: a Friday where the big buzz is about Luigi MANGIONI
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  Speaker 3: expected to plead guilty this morning or work a plea deal.
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  Speaker 3: I should say, not plead guilty, but work a plea
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  Speaker 3: deal in federal court to federal stalking charges. Some kind
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  Speaker 3: of a plea deal in the works is the word
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  Speaker 3: tied to the December twenty twenty four killing of United
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  Speaker 3: Healthcare CEO Brian Thompson outside the New York Hilton with
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  Speaker 3: us right now is retired Supreme Court Judge Barry Cammons,
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  Speaker 3: named partner at Idala, Bertuna and Camon's law firm here
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  Speaker 3: in the city, regarding the possible federal Luigi MANGIONI plead deal.
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  Speaker 3: Good morning to you, Judge Camons.
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  Speaker 1: Good morning, how are you?
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  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me on.
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  Speaker 3: Great to have you on, sir, And just full disclosure
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  Speaker 3: for people to know that one of your partners there, Imron,
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  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, is my lawyer. So I just want to
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  Speaker 3: make sure we put it all out on the table
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  Speaker 3: so no one says, hey, you never disclose that full disclosure.
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  Speaker 1: So judging.
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  Speaker 3: Let's and my uncle used to be a state Supreme
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  Speaker 3: Court judge too. I'm sure you came across Pete Rozzotto
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  Speaker 3: in your days.
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  Speaker 1: Sure I did.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's Dad's baby brother still around. So tell us
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  Speaker 3: what it is that Luigi Mangioni's attorney may be doing
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  Speaker 3: with the federal judge at eleven this morning. He's bypassing
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  Speaker 3: the prosecutor, speaking directly with the judge. What's the purpose
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  Speaker 3: of that.
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  Speaker 4: Well, of course, no one knows exactly what's going to
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  Speaker 4: be happening. I mean, they may have worked out something
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  Speaker 4: in advance ready to go this morning. The plea may
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  Speaker 4: be taken this morning. But the what what is very
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  Speaker 4: very important is this will set off a chain of
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  Speaker 4: events that will follow into the state court. There's something
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  Speaker 4: called double jeopardy, which I'm sure everyone is aware of.
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  Speaker 4: It's an incredibly difficult subject. Basically, it says that no
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  Speaker 4: one should be you know, tried tries for the same crime.
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  Speaker 4: Just to give an example, there was a fellow by
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  Speaker 4: name of Paul Manafort years ago who was Trump's campaign manager,
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  Speaker 4: who was convicted in federal court of fraud. Say Vance,
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  Speaker 4: who is the DA in Manhattan, then try to go
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  Speaker 4: to trial and indict him and go to trial for
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  Speaker 4: fraud in the state court. But the court in state
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  Speaker 4: court dismissed the fraud chargers, saying that the fraud in
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  Speaker 4: state court was exactly the same as the fraud in
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  Speaker 4: the federal court. Therefore, he dismissed the charges and that
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  Speaker 4: was upheld. This is a much more complicated situation. If
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  Speaker 4: Managingon pleads to stalking in the federal court, which is
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  Speaker 4: basically stalking and traveling an interstate commerce commerce for the
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  Speaker 4: purpose of committing a murder, which carries a life sentence,
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  Speaker 4: the defense will then move in the state court to
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  Speaker 4: dismiss the charges against Mangeon, arguing that this is also
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  Speaker 4: double jeopardy. However, in my opinion, it is not. Of course,
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  Speaker 4: there'll be litigation and they'll have to be you know,
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  Speaker 4: extensive brief and arguments on this. It's the prosecution is
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  Speaker 4: going to argue in state court that they're not the
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  Speaker 4: same crime, that there are different elements, even though it's
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  Speaker 4: the same criminal transaction, the same that happened in front
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  Speaker 4: of the Hotel Hilton, that there are different elements. The
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  Speaker 4: state crime is murder. The federal crime is stalking, and
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  Speaker 4: the DA is going to argue they serve different purposes,
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  Speaker 4: different intent So it's going to be interesting. Of course,
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  Speaker 4: if the judge in the.
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  Speaker 2: State denies the motion and says no, it's not double jeopardy,
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  Speaker 2: he can be tried in state court, well, then the
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  Speaker 2: ballgame is over for Mangeon because he cannot go to
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  Speaker 2: trial in state court.
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  Speaker 1: And the reason why. The reason why.
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  Speaker 4: Is because if he takes a plea this morning and
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  Speaker 4: admits that he committed murder as part of stalking and
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  Speaker 4: the so fort that can be used against him, It
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  Speaker 4: can be introduced against him in the state court.
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  Speaker 1: And no lawyer in his right mind.
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  Speaker 4: Is going to go to trial where he knows that
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  Speaker 4: that admission is going to come in against his client
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  Speaker 4: on trials, So he's going to have to take a
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  Speaker 4: plea in state court. Now, what the lawyer may be
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  Speaker 4: doing here is setting up a situation where he pleads
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  Speaker 4: in both courts, but does the serve his sentence in
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  Speaker 4: the federal system. He may feel that the jail in
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  Speaker 4: the jails in the federal system, or when I say better,
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  Speaker 4: I mean no jail is great, but it's better serving
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  Speaker 4: time in the federal prison than it is in state. Now,
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  Speaker 4: I'm not, as you know, I don't have any expertise
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  Speaker 4: in the federal jails as far as you know, as
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  Speaker 4: far as what level of comfort you have. But I
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  Speaker 4: can't imagine that any federal maximum security prison in federal
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  Speaker 4: court is a picnic. But it may be better. It
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  Speaker 4: may be better than what he would serve if he
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  Speaker 4: had to serve in the New York state maximum securities,
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  Speaker 4: which I know that I know are horrible places to serve.
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  Speaker 3: So and you're on a your honor, I will still
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  Speaker 3: call you that, even though you're retired now from that position,
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  Speaker 3: you're always your honor. Part of it, I would think,
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  Speaker 3: would be the clientele that you are serving with in
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  Speaker 3: federal court versus state court. Do you think that has
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  Speaker 3: a lot to do with it?
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  Speaker 4: Well, you're talking about the types of prisoners, you mean, right.
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  Speaker 3: I'm trying to be as gentle as possible with my
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  Speaker 3: tongue deep in my cheek.
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  Speaker 4: No, No, it's true that.
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  Speaker 1: Look, the clientele is different.
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  Speaker 4: In the prison, but we're talking about a violent crime here.
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  Speaker 4: So if he's put in a prison and a maximum
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  Speaker 4: PRINCI prison with other individuals have committed violent crimes. They
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  Speaker 4: are particularly dangerous people. I mean, there are some very
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  Speaker 4: difficult prisons in the fideral system, like the ones is
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  Speaker 4: one in Colorado that a maximum scity that is totally underground.
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  Speaker 4: I mean, you just don't see daylight for the rest
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  Speaker 4: of your life. I mean, it's it's just incredible. So
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  Speaker 4: it's you know, the clientele may be different.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the white.
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  Speaker 4: Collar criminals obviously in federal court are different than the
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  Speaker 4: you know, the the street crime people in the in
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  Speaker 4: the state system.
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  Speaker 1: In New York.
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  Speaker 4: But he's not going to be in with white collar criminals.
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  Speaker 4: He's going to be in with violent predators. And so look,
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  Speaker 4: I'm sure that his team has thought this through and
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  Speaker 4: I'm sure this is all mapped out as part as
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  Speaker 4: I said a chess match. They will they're trying to
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  Speaker 4: figure out. Look, look, I never personally figure could figure
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  Speaker 4: out what the defense was going to be in the
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  Speaker 4: state court anyway, right, you know, he it's it's they've
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  Speaker 4: got the bullet from the gun that he had, which
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  Speaker 4: matches the you know, what was removed from the deceased.
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  Speaker 4: So where is he going. There's no defense in this case,
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  Speaker 4: so you know, he may have to wind up leading
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  Speaker 4: in state as well.
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  Speaker 3: So this is basically a giant hail Mary pass. They're
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  Speaker 3: trying to see what will stick, what won't stick, what
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  Speaker 3: could be decided, what you know, and depending also on
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  Speaker 3: the mood of the judge. According to the DJ, they're
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  Speaker 3: saying that no, there is no deal reach, there was
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  Speaker 3: no remit reached in advance, that if mister Manjoni's attorneys
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  Speaker 3: would like to plea on his behalf guilty, then we'll
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  Speaker 3: accept whatever plea, etc. The DJ is saying that they
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  Speaker 3: did not have a any kind of a deal, So
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  Speaker 3: it could very well be then that the attorney will
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  Speaker 3: present the judge something for the very first time this
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  Speaker 3: morning at eleven o'clock.
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  Speaker 4: Then right right, he may not actually enter a plea.
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  Speaker 4: They may work out the beginnings or the sort of
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  Speaker 4: the groundwork for a plea, and they may come back
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  Speaker 4: next week two weeks, you know, and actually enter the plea.
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  Speaker 4: But at least this sets the case on a different path,
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  Speaker 4: because there's a September right date looming in, you know,
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  Speaker 4: for trial, and they want to the lawyers from Angeou and.
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  Speaker 1: Want to work out whatever they want to work out.
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  Speaker 4: Before that September eighth State, because if there's an actually
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  Speaker 4: an entering of a plea that will set off then,
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  Speaker 4: as I said, a motion in the Stake Coourt to
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  Speaker 4: postpone the trial so they can litigate whether that trial
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  Speaker 4: can go forward because of double jeopardy.
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  Speaker 1: And that's going to take while. I mean, there's going
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  Speaker 1: to be extensive briefing on that.
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  Speaker 4: So I think though that the problem in the State Court,
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  Speaker 4: I know is a former judge. This is going to
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  Speaker 4: set up a problem because a lot of jurors were
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  Speaker 4: summoned for that September Race date. I mean extra hundreds
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  Speaker 4: of people have been summoned by subpoenia not subpoena, by notice,
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  Speaker 4: and a lot of people are going to show up
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  Speaker 4: in September Race.
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  Speaker 1: Now those notices have gone out.
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  Speaker 4: And if all those people show up at one hundred
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  Speaker 4: Center Streets and that trial is off, the court administrators
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  Speaker 4: are not going to be that amused.
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  Speaker 3: You know, well, they'll have plenty of extra jury pull
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  Speaker 3: to juror draw from for other cases. At least you
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  Speaker 3: don't have to worry about that that civil case.
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  Speaker 1: Many Yeah, really, you.
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  Speaker 3: Have them right there. Let's just tell everybody who this is.
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  Speaker 3: This is retired Supreme Court Judge Barry Cammon's name's partner
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  Speaker 3: at Igdalla Bertuna and Cammon's law firm here in the city.
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  Speaker 3: We're talking about the possible federal Luigi Manngeon plea, potential
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  Speaker 3: plea deal. We don't really know what's happening yet. It's
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  Speaker 3: going to ostensibly happen in just about ten minutes from now,
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  Speaker 3: but I think a lot of members of the media
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  Speaker 3: are excitedly there thinking at eleven o'clock and ten seconds
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  Speaker 3: we're going to have an answer about something, and that
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  Speaker 3: really isn't going to be the case, is it?
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  Speaker 1: No?
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  Speaker 4: No, No, things don't happen that quickly in court. I mean,
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  Speaker 4: I think because there's going to be some discussion, the
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  Speaker 4: defense may make certain applications.
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  Speaker 1: They may look. I agree with you.
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  Speaker 4: If there's been no discussion, well, although it's hard to believe,
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  Speaker 4: I have to think there's been some discussion with the
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  Speaker 4: prosecutor in the federal court about a certain you know,
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  Speaker 4: trying to work out possibly a plea to this charge
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  Speaker 4: with less than life as a sentence. But so maybe
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  Speaker 4: they'll talk about setting a limit on what the on
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  Speaker 4: what the amount of time would be. But as you know,
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  Speaker 4: if federal court is completely different than in statehourt and
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  Speaker 4: state court. You work out a plea, there's a promise
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  Speaker 4: by the judge at the time you take the plea.
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  Speaker 4: You know when you come back the sentence.
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  Speaker 1: That what you will be getting.
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  Speaker 4: Federal court there is no such thing. With some rare exceptions.
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  Speaker 4: You you take a plea and you know basically the guidelines,
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  Speaker 4: the range of you know where you may wind up
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  Speaker 4: as far as a sentence, but you do not know
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  Speaker 4: what the sentence will be until you come back and
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  Speaker 4: the judge utters that sentence. In the data sense, that's
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  Speaker 4: when you actually.
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  Speaker 1: Learn what you You know you're going to jail.
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  Speaker 4: Where you're not going to jail, of course in this
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  Speaker 4: case he is. But there are some cases where the
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  Speaker 4: difference is between jail and probation, and you don't know
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  Speaker 4: that until the judge says I'm sentencing you to the
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  Speaker 4: following And there's a lot of drama in the federal
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  Speaker 4: court because of that, because there is no promise by
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  Speaker 4: the judge and you and you know. That's why good
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  Speaker 4: advocacy by people like author Right Doll and my partner
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  Speaker 4: can sometimes change the judge's mind at the last minute
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  Speaker 4: and changes from a jail sentence to probation. So so yeah,
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  Speaker 4: there's but as you say, there's no one knows what's
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  Speaker 4: going to happen and now in five minutes.
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  Speaker 1: But there's a lot I'll tell you what thing. There's
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  Speaker 1: a lot of drama.
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  Speaker 4: And I guess that's what makes the media happy because they're,
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  Speaker 4: you know, they're reporting on something that's got a lot
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  Speaker 4: of excitement.
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  Speaker 3: Judge, just with about thirty seconds left, just siute of curiosity,
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  Speaker 3: as you've been on both sides of this. Now, because
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  Speaker 3: you were a sitting Supreme Court judge and you're an attorney,
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  Speaker 3: how much influence does the attorney have on a judge's decision?
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  Speaker 4: I think it's not the well the judge, a judge
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  Speaker 4: who respects the attorney will listen obviously more carefully. And
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  Speaker 4: when when I was a judge and I saw certain
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  Speaker 4: lawyers walk in the courtroom, I would sort of kind
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  Speaker 4: of sort of tune them out a little bit because
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  Speaker 4: I said, oh, here comes mister x. I. You know,
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  Speaker 4: if they don't have credibility, you know, it hurts the
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  Speaker 4: client if they've got credibility, And of course you've got
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  Speaker 4: to have the advocacy and the most important. You've got
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  Speaker 4: to have the law. You know, they say a good
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  Speaker 4: lawyer knows the law, a great lawyer knows the judge.
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  Speaker 1: I love that.
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  Speaker 3: I think I heard my uncle say that once or twice.
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  Speaker 3: We appreciate you so much, Retired Supreme Court Judge Barry
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  Speaker 3: Cammon's named partner at Idala Burtuna and Cammon's law firm
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  Speaker 3: here in the city. Again, we're talking about the possible
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  Speaker 3: federal Luigi mangoan potential plea. We don't know what it is.
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  Speaker 3: We'll find out in a little bit. We thank you
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  Speaker 3: so much for coming on this morning and clarifying. Have
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  Speaker 3: a great day.
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  Speaker 4: Thank you pas.
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  Speaker 3: Likewise, party cloudy today, Hi's upper eighties. We'll take your
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  Speaker 3: calls next eight hundred and three two one zero seven
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  Speaker 3: ten Ken Rosotto win from Mark on your Friday seven
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  Speaker 3: to ten WR