Latest / The Magic Guys / Mentalism or Magic? The Line That Divides #272

Transcript

Mentalism or Magic? The Line That Divides #272 · The Magic Guys

0:02
They're guys they do magic they are the magic guys,
0:13
ladies and gentlemen welcome to episode 272 of the magic guys i'm josh nobito
0:20
and to my left We've got Nick Kay.
0:23
I'm Nick Kay.
0:26
Or as I like to call him, Nicolas Cage. And Doug Kahn is currently running the Trick Supply store.
0:32
He couldn't make it today, but he is around and he's going to have a lot to
0:36
say after this episode because it's a topic that everyone has an opinion on.
0:42
It sure is. And we're glad that you're here in the chat. So,
0:45
Nick, thank you for running this episode.
0:48
Buddy, this episode, not so bad, this topic. this topic can divide nations. It really can.
0:54
And it's the type of thing that I felt, it's been brought to my attention quite
0:59
a bit over the past few weeks. And so I felt compelled to journal on this a little bit.
1:04
And yeah, I think everyone's input is going to be deeply valued.
1:08
So with that being said, we do have a comments section. So please take it upon
1:12
yourself to share your thoughts on the topics. We'll be debating quite a few
1:16
things along the way, little by little.
1:19
It's a very open debate no one's controlling the terms but,
1:23
it's going to make for a good time so again pop your comments and thoughts in
1:27
the chat there's some folks already in there we got scotty link in there we
1:30
got nick good to see you bud tim asking them questions and having opinions and adonis
1:35
he's going to have some thoughts on this as well so i'm looking forward to that
1:38
and the emergency magician that sounds like fun,
1:40
what is an emergency magician you ever have a heart attack,
1:44
and then And just a guy comes in to a card.
1:47
Yeah, like that's just like that. Just like that. Right. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's good.
1:53
Yeah, well, that just flattened the topic, didn't it? The conversation.
1:58
Speaking of which, long card. All right, next question.
2:02
We also have a speak pipe we're going to run with before we begin.
2:05
We love having you guys starting off the podcast.
2:09
We make it for you, so we love to hear from you. You know what I mean?
2:13
Today's one comes in from Patrick. I think you just got it in today. Let's check it out.
2:20
All right, lads. It's Patrick here. Greetings from the UK. here,
2:23
I am having some real trouble actually performing for people in the wild. Real trouble.
2:32
I've tried sitting in coffee shops, just getting used to the ebb and flow of people.
2:38
I've tried being in a busy bar and my social anxiety just collapsed my arse shut.
2:45
So I don't know what to do because i really want to do this as a job and turn
2:50
tricks for money like you guys are doing so successfully,
2:54
but i don't know whether to jump straight on stage into a small 30 minute or
2:59
40 minute show where i'm in control of the whole environment,
3:04
or whether to go to an old people's home and try and impress some nannas first,
3:10
would me going straight on stage in that environment,
3:14
give me confidence in walk around and more intimate small party sort of settings
3:21
where the day-to-day money is made or would it,
3:25
potentially completely kill any momentum altogether and be totally terrifying,
3:31
we'd love to hear your input on this lads cheers.
3:35
All right, could I speak to that for a sec, Josh? Because I think that what's...
3:42
The thing about doing a roving act to a stage show, right, is that the interaction
3:49
can end the moment you walk away at a roving act. You go to a table,
3:54
you spend three minutes, you walk away.
3:56
If you are committed to a 30-minute set, in my opinion, that is 30 minutes that
4:01
they are locked in, engaged, no one escapes.
4:05
And I think that if you're having an anxiety about performing,
4:07
that is a scarier thing, in my opinion, because it means that if anything does
4:12
go wrong, you've got to wear that burden for 30 whole minutes with the same people in the group.
4:18
The beauty of being able to do a roving act is that if you, let's say that you're
4:23
doing a routine and there's the smallest flash or something,
4:27
one person out of 10 notices at the table, for example.
4:31
The cool thing about that is
4:33
that when you're roving you get to go to the next table and you can just.
4:38
Give it a second chance and rectify the exact same thing you've done,
4:43
so i think that in order to get over your anxieties pat i think that repetition
4:48
is going to be one of the most valuable things for you and i would lean into
4:51
doing that because you could literally do
4:53
four tricks three tricks even, in a roving setting, going from table to table, group to group,
5:00
in these opportunities, right,
5:02
where you can just do the same thing again and again.
5:06
And because you're doing it so frequently, you'll get better at it and gain
5:10
your confidence from it, and thus your anxieties will disperse.
5:14
But if you were to do this in a show, it means that you have to do a 30-minute
5:19
show, and then another 30-minute show and another 30-minute show and another
5:23
30-minute show to achieve the same results.
5:26
And so that your progression and getting over these anxieties will take a lot
5:31
longer for that reason. So I think that if there's an opportunity to do any
5:36
roving at a voluntary rate or,
5:40
you know, like you'll just go to a bar and maintain a friendship or whatever
5:43
else, do it for peanuts if you have to, or do it for a meal.
5:46
That's probably the best way to do it, but you're going to get your most value
5:49
out of that. Josh, what do you think?
5:52
Yeah, look, we could make this whole episode about this question, right?
5:56
Like it's a thing we all deal with because we love doing magic,
5:59
but the approach is sometimes the killer because of anxiety.
6:03
So I think, yeah, I second everything nick said and i think for patrick like,
6:09
getting on stage won't actually fix your anxiety because everyone who came to see you perform on stage,
6:18
is already coming to watch you so now you literally have no approach to get
6:23
overdoing so you're going to go on stage and let's say you kill it which is,
6:28
rare if it's your first time just performing to people.
6:32
You're still not going to be able to work on getting over that anxiety of approaching
6:37
people. And that's only going to get better by doing it more and realizing there's
6:41
nothing to be worried about because literally the worst thing someone can say
6:45
when you approach them to show the magic is no.
6:48
And then you move on and like nothing bad happens.
6:52
But a few little pointers I will say is, yeah, it is going to be anxious if you're by yourself,
6:58
on the street or in a bar and you're trying to go up to a stranger and show the magic,
7:03
when you're not it's not in a gig environment it's just in the wild yeah that
7:07
is really nerve-wracking so like the easiest way because you do need to do this
7:12
a bunch before you consider doing it for a living so,
7:16
you like the easiest way is to go with a friend right,
7:20
and if you don't have a friend that's a magician you could go to the magic club
7:24
find someone online that lives in the area like that's going to be the easiest
7:27
way if you have another budding magician because then it's so much easier to
7:31
approach people because it's more of a game now than a personal,
7:35
thing and it failing that just get literally anyone that you can get to come
7:40
with you and they're usually even less nervous because they don't have to do any magic and they'll,
7:45
typically go up to people for you and be like hey this guy's really good at
7:48
magic can you show you something and it's like and then you're in because once
7:52
you start performing there's no anxiety anymore it's just that starting bit.
7:58
But failing all of that let's say you listen to none of that and you still go
8:03
out by yourself and you're still anxious,
8:06
just try little other things approaching people that isn't magic like i remember
8:10
reading in a book on this topic they suggest doing other things like just go
8:16
up to someone and ask them do they have the time or,
8:20
where's the train station like just ask a question that someone can answer and
8:23
you can move on with your day and get used to people actually interacting with you back.
8:31
And eventually you will get over it. But yeah, I would say don't go off on stage
8:35
because you're anxious to approach one person.
8:37
Yeah, maybe deal with that first and then it'll be fine.
8:41
It is way different. Would you agree, Nick? Like in a gig environment,
8:45
when you're booked to be there, it's a way different resistance to approach
8:50
people because like it's literally your job there.
8:53
Whereas on the street, if we were to go and film street magic,
8:57
it's a bit of a different environment because you're trying to stop random people
9:01
living their own life and you're trying to interject as opposed to we're meant
9:06
to go and see everyone at this gig.
9:10
You know i think you make a good point that like with regards to the approach and,
9:15
seldom do i think that's the scariest thing because i've got such a well-scripted,
9:20
approach and everything else and it's mentioned in my my bible lecture which
9:24
stands for basic instructions for being a leading entertainer and that's a lecture
9:27
that i've done all over i think the last time i did it was in nz.
9:31
I think it's probably worth sharing that information in an episode i've just
9:37
had a look through our catalog.
9:38
And we've talked about this seldom in between conversations when people have
9:42
asked it, like whatever else, but I think it's probably worth doing a,
9:45
here is how to approach roving, magic, whatever else.
9:51
We might do a dedicated episode for that. I think that you guys will get a lot
9:54
of value out of that. And if that's what you want, drop it in the comments now and say, yes, yes, yes.
9:58
And we'll, I'll show you all my golden bits from the Bible lecture,
10:01
which we'll put, not teach the routines, but we'll teach all the stuff on how
10:05
to approach tables and stuff from that as well I think that'll be that'll be good.
10:10
That'll be great and a lot of people in the comments are mentioning busking
10:14
is a great way to get over this so that's great and having signage saying you
10:18
know world's best card trick or we've got one here saying I reward the curious from Scotty Link,
10:24
a sign when you're busking obviously,
10:27
excellent because then people will eventually come over to you.
10:31
But yeah, man, like, okay, just out of whim, what's a thing you might say if
10:36
you're doing street magic as an opening line?
10:40
If I'm doing street, see, I don't do street magic, but if I was going to approach
10:44
a group, I would just, I would firstly just state my intention.
10:47
I think one of the first, most important things you need to establish when you're
10:51
performing something is who are you, what are you doing, why are you worth my time?
10:54
And that's what Max Maven teaches in the prison book.
10:58
And I try to embody that when I approach people. So if I say,
11:01
hey guys, how you doing? So sorry to interrupt. My name is Nick.
11:04
I'm a professional magician currently filming some stuff for YouTube.
11:07
And I just want some really cool people on my video. And you guys seem lovely.
11:10
Would it be okay if we do a little something for the thing? Or am I interrupting conversation?
11:14
And if they're like, we'd love to be a part of this. Thank you so much.
11:17
And then I would start filming. You know, you just stating your intention.
11:21
You're giving them an out. You're not forcing anything on them.
11:24
And if they say no, you go, no worries. So sorry to be above you.
11:27
And I appreciate you listening, you know, hearing me out and you can walk away.
11:30
Because a lot of people struggle to deal with the rejection of being told no for things.
11:37
If your mindset is that I've got a gift, would you like to experience this gift?
11:40
And they go, no, thank you. Oh, great. I get to keep the gift and give it to
11:43
someone else. Thanks. And you walk away.
11:46
You know, you got to just change your mindset about some of these things.
11:49
You haven't failed because someone said no, thank you to magic.
11:52
But that's the way I would do it because if I was going to do it for YouTube,
11:55
for example, that's great. Or you can just go, hey guys, I'm a local magician.
11:58
I just wanted to try something fun. It's not going to cost you a penny.
12:01
I just want you guys to sit for a couple of minutes.
12:03
Whatever the intention is, is important.
12:06
So we will i think we should cover we should cover that in a full ep i think that's a great idea to,
12:12
help everyone and then and then we want you guys out there posting and roasting,
12:18
all your performances and all your stories about giving it a crack i think that'll be valuable,
12:23
a great guy to follow right now is our friend adam axford yeah he's doing great,
12:28
adam a x f o r d on instagram he's doing daily approaching random people doing
12:34
street magic making that human connection and what i love is that he also posts
12:39
on his stories the rejections he gets from people
12:43
because he's not asking people in advance and then starting to film he's filming
12:47
straight from the approach so you're literally seeing,
12:51
all the performances he's doing are from you see from him asking first and then
12:56
you also see when people say no and you realize they look the same like people
13:00
just say no and he moves on or people say yes and he continues.
13:03
There's no, he doesn't feel bad about anything.
13:06
So check that out too, Patrick, and we hope that helps.
13:10
Anyway, today has a more, for some people, anxious topic.
13:17
Some people feel bad when they have someone believe that they can really read
13:21
minds, you know? Oh, wait, is there another speak?
13:26
There is. Oh, yeah, we do have another speak pipe. If you want to go two for
13:29
two straight out the gate, let's do it.
13:32
Our second speak pipe is from Seth.
13:35
And Seth sent this in recently. Remember, speakpipe.com forward slash the magic guys.
13:40
Is where you can send that in and we need one to start off next week's episode
13:44
so you still got time people here we go Seth,
13:48
hope y'all are doing well oh this past weekend I was hired for a unique gig
13:53
that I've never done before and I was curious if y'all have ever done anything
13:56
similar and what you would have done in the situation so I got hired by a,
14:02
bar owner to come teach their bartenders magic tricks for an hour.
14:08
And so, I mean, I did. And I did on like jumping rubber bands,
14:12
rubber band through thumb, angle Z with the coaster, and French drop for making
14:18
bottle caps or coins disappear.
14:21
And then I taught them the crosscut force, and that was sort of it.
14:24
And it seemed like it went over very well, but yeah, I'm just curious to hear
14:28
what y'all's selections would be in that situation. Cheers.
14:32
Okay. Cool. Cool. Cool. What a, what a cool consulting gig going in and teaching bar magic. I think.
14:41
That's great that's that's really great value for the bar because i've seen
14:45
people in a bar when i was younger doing some magic with the props around them
14:50
and they get great tips from doing that so it's,
14:55
literally making the money.
14:58
Yeah i've um i i've done a few things like that in the past bust bust up especially and,
15:05
the most important thing that i try to do is just i just try to create magic
15:09
that's indigenous to their location meaning things that surrounding them yeah i one time
15:15
during covid a company hired me to teach magic i do a show and then teach teach
15:20
magic and so i was like okay cool and then i just went looking for things around my house,
15:24
that they could perform and entertain like themselves and so i can't,
15:29
remember what the company was but it was a big conglomerate with there was hundreds
15:32
of people on there and then everyone was just glued to the tvs with their kids
15:35
no all learning magic as a family it was kind of a cute moment
15:38
and as far as answering the question as routines go it was like okay so one
15:42
of the things like doing is that like he would like like he would make two drinks,
15:47
and then he would take one i don't have a straw but this would be like a straw
15:50
and then he would split into two and then put them both in like this
15:53
so just by doing the flip stick in conjunction with like grabbing and going
15:58
in like it looks like you got the one straw you split into two and then make it one so just,
16:03
these little touches you know a one ahead style cup and ball thing using the
16:08
Boston Shakers was another thing that I was doing for folks because you can
16:11
get a full routine and you can teach them how to do some loads and then leave
16:14
it to their creativity as well.
16:17
And then, you know, when I was doing just normal household stuff,
16:19
like I was teaching stuff with chapsticks and, and, you know,
16:24
basically anything, a small object and a long object where you do the whole thing behind the ear.
16:28
Like that's a really fun thing to play with. We can like do a cherry,
16:32
same thing with a cherry and a straw.
16:33
You can go watch the cherry vanish and then you vanish the straw instead.
16:37
When you turn your head and it's behind your ear, like there is all these moments
16:40
like that. And I think that that is, that's the sort of stuff I would do.
16:44
I would just go, let me come to the bar. Let me see what you've got.
16:47
Let me see what we can make with that. Because the last thing you want is for
16:50
people to rock up to work and go, well, I can't do any magic. I forgot my stuff.
16:54
So, yeah. What would you do, Josh? What stuff would you throw into the mix?
16:58
I mean, like you said, anything that they're actively using already is the key.
17:04
And it should be quick and not like a big process because people want to get their drinks, right?
17:09
So the straw is fucking genius. And that was what I was going to bring up.
17:12
The thing that I remember being shown was a straw routine. Like it was,
17:17
it was just something basic. Like he, he took a straw out. He like went to give
17:21
it to me. Then it was like back over here. And I was like, Oh my God, that's the best.
17:26
And I remembered seeing Garrett Thomas's ring thing, like the,
17:29
cause the bar, the barman had a ring on, so he would just do this.
17:33
And that was like enough. That was like, Holy crap. You're the coolest guy I've ever known.
17:38
And it was two little things but i think yeah the like production of a straw
17:42
and then the duplication of straws is like perfect,
17:46
and of course you know a lot of people still pay for their drinks in cash so
17:51
like when you go to give the cash back you give the last 50 cents and you like
17:55
you know retain it that's great and then you like reproduce it.
17:59
You know like not you know we We could go on forever about magic with money,
18:05
but keeping it simple is like, and then, you know,
18:08
it doesn't hurt to do, to have a bit of flash paper here and there.
18:12
Obviously, you wouldn't give that to a newbie, but like.
18:15
If I was going to be a bar magician, like not a bar magician,
18:18
just a server, a cocktail maker, I would definitely have flash paper ready to
18:22
just, you know, for no reason.
18:25
If I could speak to that, I mean, Scotty Link is saying like,
18:28
if you teach weight staff several magic tricks, are you shooting yourself in
18:31
the foot from a strolling table hop gig?
18:34
And I think that there is a certain quality of magic that, you know.
18:41
I'm never going to be outdone by someone sitting behind a bar with a straw and
18:45
a pen or a cherry okay like it's okay to teach someone a little bit of something
18:50
at the very least i'll get some appreciation for the magic,
18:54
and i think in that teaching process it's the type of thing where you know even
18:57
if you meet someone like i do magic too and it's like i know you think you do,
19:01
but let me do my trick first and then if you feel like you can step up after
19:04
me you have a go and And then I ask people, do you want to follow that? And they're like, no.
19:08
And I'm like, good. What did you learn? You know?
19:12
I think, yeah, I think that is looking at it the wrong way.
19:16
Like that's looking at it with, like you need to look at it with an abundant mindset approach.
19:20
So the fact that you've taught all the staff magic, right? And now the owner
19:25
is realizing how much people love magic because they're seeing the little bits,
19:29
that the bar are doing, the staff are doing, and customers are reacting.
19:34
Now you can be like well you see how much people love this really quick interaction
19:38
they're they're doing because they're busy serving drinks imagine if you bring
19:41
me in and my job is just to do the magic part,
19:45
they're gonna imagine how much your customers are gonna love that so it's almost
19:48
like a win you know yeah i just realized,
19:52
i just realized how much it could propagate forward like if people are coming
19:54
in to see the crappy bar magic done by a couple of you know people shaking cocktails
19:58
eventually it builds momentum and it's so busy that they don't even have time to perform that magic,
20:04
that makes space for you to be a dedicated guy who only distracts folks entertaining
20:08
folks while their cocktails are getting made because you know it could take
20:12
like six or seven minutes for a cocktail to be made if not more.
20:16
Yeah, exactly. And you're now seen as.
20:22
An authority in this situation because now they might bring you back once a
20:26
month to train the new staff how to do some magic or to show the guys some more stuff or,
20:32
if they want to rig something behind the bar, they're going to call you and
20:35
now you're an authority in this situation.
20:38
And only good things can come from it. Like I'm very much a Gary Vee kind of
20:44
way of thinking where if you try to put yourself out of business,
20:48
you will actually become more busy from that.
20:51
You know, like technically, if you think about this podcast, we literally share,
20:56
every piece of advice we can think of that should make anyone listening become
21:03
busier than us because you're doing all the things we're telling you,
21:07
but you haven't had to learn about it first and go through the mistakes and
21:10
yet nick and i actually are super busy and i fortunately,
21:17
i get a lot of gigs sent to me from magicians that know me from the podcast
21:22
you know right and like you know one of the gigs that you're doing nick soon that that regular one,
21:28
is gonna be from someone we met through the podcast and so,
21:34
actually trying to share as much knowledge as we can has inadvertently made
21:38
us busier and i think that's what would happen to in the bar situation so,
21:44
yeah that's right and when you share information and be awesome you win fism
21:48
that's how the game works it's all about community.
21:52
That's right yeah there's no there's no negatives about it but that that's it
21:59
sounds like a great thing that seth you got to do man i think a lot of that
22:03
magic you taught them they might not use like the criss-crott force,
22:07
would imply they have cards at the bar and like angle z,
22:11
like when someone's getting their change it's a great idea to do it with the,
22:16
with the um coaster but like that's probably only going to be if someone wants
22:20
to watch another trick because you're not going to really have time to be like
22:24
pick a coaster okay watch this you know,
22:27
check under your watch or check on the other side of the room but i love the
22:30
thinking of it like it's great but yeah anything that's already on them is is perfect,
22:36
And of course, you know, we have a discord that you can jam cool ideas with.
22:40
We are a community and there's nothing stopping you guys from going,
22:42
does anybody want to jam cool bar ideas at this time?
22:47
The jam sessions we have in our discord are ridiculous. I pop in to say hello.
22:50
I got 10 minutes and then I'm there three hours later. It's ridiculous.
22:53
So yeah, I mean, yeah. So come and scope it out.
22:57
All right. I say we get into our topic today. It's not, it's an interesting
23:01
one. It's time for debate.
23:03
And the topic today is the fine line between magic versus mentalism.
23:13
So today that we're tackling this topic, which has caused more debates than
23:17
any other subject in magic, and it's the big, and the question ultimately is
23:20
the differences between magic and mentalism.
23:23
So at first glance, they seem very similar, both creating possible experiences,
23:29
both rely and deception and both leave audiences wondering how did they do that.
23:34
But ask a room full of magicians whether mentalism is magic and you'll discover
23:41
that their opinions are divided massively.
23:45
Some performers believe mentalism is a branch of magic and others will argue
23:49
completely different art forms, totally different and not even in the same realm.
23:54
And some mentalists believe they become visibly uncomfortable when they call themselves a magician.
24:00
And I think we know a few people like that. I'm not a magician,
24:03
I'm a mentalist. And you're like, no, you're not. You're Gavin.
24:07
Shut up. So today we're exploring the fine line between magic and mentalism,
24:13
where they overlap, where they differ, and whether or not, and this is going
24:17
to be the hot topic, they should be mixed together.
24:20
So let's begin with what is magic?
24:26
Let's start with a very easy definition, okay? Because magic is the art of creating
24:30
the illusion of the impossible. I'll say it again.
24:33
Magic is the art of creating the illusion of the impossible.
24:38
Example, a card appears somewhere it shouldn't. A coin vanishes.
24:42
A person levitates. A rabbit appears from an empty hat.
24:45
The audience understands at some level what they're seeing isn't real.
24:50
They don't know how it's done. They know it must be a trick.
24:54
The magician isn't claiming superpowers and the audience enters into an agreement,
25:01
because the magician ultimately says through a subtext, I'm going to fool you.
25:05
And the audience says, please do. We would love that. And then everyone understands the game.
25:11
And then all the fun comes from enjoying the entertainment that ensues from that.
25:17
And sometimes it even comes from trying to understand how it works.
25:22
And when it doesn't or when you can't figure it out you go wow because that's
25:28
the place where magic exists let's discuss,
25:34
are we in agreeance virtually with that i yeah i'm in agreeance and by the way
25:39
i think nick and i have pretty similar,
25:41
outlooks on magic and mentalism but for the sake of this you know we'll try
25:46
and ham it up a bit and play devil's advocate where we're needed but the first
25:51
thing it makes me think is,
25:53
yeah people understand this unwritten contract that what you're seeing is,
26:00
a trick however,
26:03
is that still the case in terms of street magic,
26:08
because how many times have we heard people say oh man i saw.
26:15
Dynamo walk on the river thames is that like some demon magic or like he's something
26:22
else right and i'm like are you serious you know because it looks so real,
26:28
and he is a magician but people are having these life altering ways of thinking
26:33
now thinking that that's some dark magic so,
26:36
is there a line even within magic of like what's ethical and what's not ethical,
26:42
well i think that the ethics is is that we don't claim to have superpowers and
26:47
i think that is where if i can speak on behalf of the institute of magic that's
26:51
where we draw a line and if you are someone coming into our realm and you genuinely believe.
26:57
And you're going to tell an audience that, no, what I do, like the disc double
27:02
lift is genuinely dark magic.
27:05
We go, that's against our ethics, man. We can't support you being part of our institute.
27:10
So I think that's the important thing. Now, it's also important to let people
27:14
believe in magic. I think it's important.
27:17
I sometimes think that I'm the only magician on the planet left who still believes
27:21
in magic because it's the moments in between. We spoke about this last week.
27:26
You know, in the episode of like the things I wish I knew earlier.
27:29
It's the things in between.
27:32
Now, Gerhan has a comment about this. What about when magicians do pseudo gambling
27:37
demonstrations where people might think they can actually deal from the middle
27:41
of the deck and whatever else?
27:42
That's fine. Let's be very clear about that.
27:45
A magician can be dishonest, but they're very honest in doing so.
27:52
And I think that's where it makes sense.
27:55
Yeah, I think the, because what is the extreme thing we're trying to say is bad here?
28:00
Like we're trying to say what we don't want is someone thinking that there's
28:06
a person walking around on the streets that can really read our thoughts.
28:10
And if there is a real person who can do that, is the government doing that?
28:14
You know, do I really have free will?
28:17
I'm, I'm scared. And these are real things that some,
28:22
I'm not saying they're fully sane, but there's, you know, people of the public
28:25
that will lead to thinking this way because of what they just experienced or,
28:30
you know, totally different realm, but psychics saying they can speak to their,
28:34
you know, dead relatives and,
28:36
family, you know, will make money off this.
28:39
And so now you're making money off the fact that people are coming to see a
28:42
show because they really believe you can read their mind. But now like,
28:45
where do you draw that line?
28:47
So that's like the extreme, I guess we're talking about.
28:49
Is it not our job to help people question the reality and to create that wonderment,
28:54
the wonderment is what we want the people to experience and just even if from
28:58
that wonderment they can think in such a way where they go,
29:02
anything is possible yeah i mean i love it i love freaking people out and i
29:07
love people not knowing what's happening and you know,
29:11
honestly in a perfect world like who cares you know like freak them out as much
29:15
as you want who cares like who cares it's great but you know don't pretend that mentalism isn't magic.
29:24
The comments the comments are getting a little bit ahead of our discussion,
29:28
i'm going to march on through this and then we'll circle back with everyone's
29:31
opinions because i think that
29:32
all i wanted to do was in order to move forward and have a decent discussion
29:35
about this is to sort of set the terms as to we all in agreeance of what magic
29:40
is and what mentalism is so with that being said let's explore what i think,
29:46
mentalism is so what is mentalism,
29:49
Sound effect? Good stuff. Mentalism is a little more complicated.
29:54
Mentalism creates the illusion of extraordinary mental abilities.
29:59
I'm going to say it again.
30:01
Mentalism creates the illusion of extraordinary mental abilities.
30:06
Example, mind reading, predictions, influence, memory demonstrations,
30:12
psychological manipulation, lie detection.
30:15
Mentalists don't usually claim,
30:19
sleight of hand as being part of their working mechanics, if you will.
30:24
Instead, they often suggest that they possess unusual skills,
30:29
maybe heightened observation, maybe advanced psychology, intuition,
30:35
and some things even more mysterious than that.
30:39
This is what makes mentalism, in my opinion, very unique.
30:44
When a magician makes a coin appear, people wonder how.
30:49
And when a magician reveals a thought people wonder like if they had thought
30:56
something like there's a different level of wonderment there in a very base level.
31:02
That's the key difference in my opinion so i think that with magic it's like
31:08
how did he do that and with mentalism the question goes, could this be real?
31:14
And I think that's the main spectator experience from that.
31:21
Agree or disagree? Yes, I agree. Yeah.
31:25
Do you want more expansion on that? Okay. No, well, actually,
31:29
so I made some comments upon this. So if we're in agreeance,
31:32
I think let's talk about why it feels different. Okay. So for example,
31:35
why mentalism feels different is because imagine a magician says, pick a card.
31:40
The card ends up inside of a lemon.
31:43
Okay. For example, amazing. Amazing. Now, imagine a mentalist says,
31:47
think of a name of your first school teacher.
31:51
And they reveal the exact name many people find that second example a little more disturbing.
32:00
And we have to take a second and ask ourselves why now i think it's because,
32:05
it's i don't know if this is the right word for it but i think i was i was gonna,
32:09
it either attacks or connects to something personal,
32:14
your thoughts your memories your identity right and i think that's why,
32:20
mentalism hits so different.
32:24
And mentalism feels less like a puzzle and more like a violation.
32:30
There's this level of intrusiveness that happens because your thoughts are your own.
32:36
Like if I'm sitting here thinking of a word right now and Josh goes,
32:41
stop thinking about bacon, I'd be like, shut up. Like, how did you know I was thinking about bacon?
32:46
You know, it's that level of intrusiveness is is is i think the strength that it has,
32:53
and it's why it's reactions in my opinion and often stronger because people
32:58
don't get fooled with mentalism in magic you get fooled but in mentalism you
33:03
don't get well you not only get fooled what you get is exposed,
33:08
and i think that's why mentalism hits so so differently.
33:12
Agree or disagree chat what are your thoughts yeah i agree it feels like it's
33:18
you know mentalism feels like the closest thing to real magic right,
33:23
because especially as adults it feels like oh i'm not watching a kiddie show
33:28
i'm watching mentalist and there's like especially in the corporate world there's
33:33
like a bit of a different feeling to that,
33:36
and maybe a price difference as well when you're pitching a mentalist as opposed to a magician,
33:41
and it feels super real i mean it's like it's probably and and that's also what
33:46
we want to invoke like we're trying to invoke as strong of a reaction as we can,
33:51
and you know that's a big part of why i learned stack work so that i can do magic that looks like,
33:58
i had no part in and they've somehow this moment has still occurred somehow with no explanation,
34:06
and that gets a bigger reaction and so i'm always also trying to evoke it but i'm not pretending,
34:12
that i'm not a magician at the
34:13
same time you know like when they say how did you do it i don't say well,
34:19
your eye twinkled beforehand so i thought yeah i should really put this in the
34:22
20th position in the deck and you know blah blah blah i'm just like i have no
34:27
idea either, but I love it.
34:30
You know? Yeah. And I agree with what you're saying, because a lot of times
34:34
when I've seen mentalism performed, and especially by young folks,
34:37
where they're telling me like, I'm a professional at reading body language,
34:40
and I know how to do this and this and that. And it's like, you are so autistic, kid.
34:44
There is zero chance that you know, like, you've read social cues.
34:49
Let's be honest. Let's be honest. Stop it. Stop it.
34:53
You know? So it's an interesting way that It could be presented in such a way
34:58
that for me makes it less believable, right? But you're trying to convince them of that. And so...
35:04
I mean they're both we're not i mean the question isn't like which one's more,
35:09
real honest or deceiving than the other but,
35:12
there's just this there's a there's a dilemma that's involved with the mentalism
35:18
because there is a level of violation and it's a personal violation on information about them.
35:24
I i most recently was performing and i i was like you know when you ever perform
35:29
for a group and then there's like like you say like what's your name is like
35:32
oh he makes up a mom bob and it's like that's the best name you can make up douche,
35:36
or he might say he's that person's name or he's like oh my name's my name's
35:39
steve and it's like that's steve over there because he's name tag idiot like
35:42
don't be you know like you get that group,
35:45
i was going around a group and i got to got to a girl i'm like let me guess
35:49
your name is matthew and she was like how did you know about matthew and all
35:52
of a sudden that became something,
35:54
you know and then that exploded into a whole experience in itself right and,
36:00
what ensued from that moment was really heavy Like, and I wasn't,
36:03
I, I just, I just had a cold reading and it went somewhere so gnarly that it
36:08
damn near turned into a religious experience.
36:10
Right. So it's, it is what it is right now.
36:16
And while we take a pause and talk about this dilemma, a lot of folks are asking
36:19
things like, well, is this trick mentalism? Is this trick mentalism? We will get to that.
36:24
We will get to that. So don't get ahead of me because I want us to understand,
36:28
what that is before we move forward. So let's just talk about the mentalist dilemma.
36:33
So with regards to the mentalist dilemma, is how honest a performer should be about it.
36:40
So the question is, should a mentalist openly admit everything is a trick or,
36:46
should they allow the audience to believe that they may possess genuine abilities?
36:52
Now, before you answer that, I'm going to give you a few examples.
36:55
Now, the three main ones for me that came to mind, of course,
36:57
Darren Brown, Banachek, and Uri Galla. So let's explore Darren Brown.
37:03
He presents himself as a master of psychology, suggestion, influence,
37:08
observation, and misdirection. Okay.
37:11
He rarely claims supernatural powers. And I think we can all agree with that.
37:17
And that's one thing I respect as well. Like the title I afford myself is Nick
37:22
K, Professional Mind Blower. And what that means is that I will use all different
37:25
skill sets to blow your mind. I will not limit myself to reading minds.
37:29
I will not limit myself to sleight of hand. I'll use a Rubik's cube.
37:33
I'll use a pen. I'll use a shoelace. It doesn't bother me. As long as I blow
37:38
your mind, I've done my job.
37:40
So I think that that ethically is a good place to be.
37:45
Now we look at someone like Banachek, Banachek has spent most of his career
37:49
exposing fraudulent psychics while performing mentalism himself.
37:54
So I think that there's something honorable in that, where he demonstrates how
38:00
seemingly impossible psychic phenomena can be.
38:03
And then he shows how he can achieve it through trickery.
38:07
And there's a level of respect you need to have for that.
38:10
So in my opinion, those two guys are kind of cool. Before I mention the last
38:15
guy, what are your thoughts on that?
38:19
I like that. Even, yeah, if you could claim yourself as being a master at mind
38:24
trickery, like that's way better than saying you have supernatural powers or
38:29
you've spent the last 10 years studying body language.
38:32
Like mind trickery is like, you can accept that a bit quicker.
38:36
Like, okay, he's going to trick us, but with our minds.
38:39
And then that's fine. Cause then like everything you're doing,
38:42
you can say is a trick, but it's like a trick of the mind. And so you're not,
38:46
you're still not saying like, oh, I did a, you know, a peak, a billet peak.
38:51
You're still saying it's a trick, but you know, that's kind of fun.
38:55
And I think it used to be fine to say that you don't have, you don't have supernatural
39:02
powers, but what you're doing is sort of NLP linguistic programming related or,
39:08
or hypnosis related or studying body language related.
39:12
But the problem is once somebody gets so big and known for that.
39:16
That can still be used to take advantage of people like a mentalist becoming
39:22
very successful at a mentalism show.
39:24
And now businesses are hiring him to speak on body language so they can sell
39:29
more products in their business.
39:30
Like now that's a false use of this skill he's made up so that you believe the
39:37
character, you know, or controversially.
39:42
Some people are commenting, not myself, but some people are commenting that
39:45
selling a book on how to improve your life with being able to read people from
39:50
someone who is playing a character of a mind reader.
39:53
So you buy the book because you watch him, but you don't learn what he does
39:57
in the book, but you've made, he's now made money from you.
40:00
These are like the ethical things that can come up that now,
40:03
like now, now you're actually, some would say scamming people.
40:11
I agree with you on that, bud. And I also think that there is certain correlations
40:14
between different belief systems and different teachings as well.
40:20
It's the type of thing that if someone were to say like, oh,
40:25
I'm not religious, but I'm spiritual. It's like, oh, that makes sense?
40:28
Because the Wanaki people believed in the spirit and these people believe in
40:31
spirits. It's like, oh, there's always correlation.
40:33
And it's a very deep belief system. So for me, it makes sense that someone like
40:37
a psychologist would look at,
40:40
correlations between behaviors, beliefs, and thought processes and go,
40:44
I could apply this to this presentation of a magic trick or a mentalism trick.
40:50
So I kind of see that like, it's very easy to, to do that.
40:54
And I guess what, well, Nick, Nick's making a comment down here.
40:59
Dragoteer is making a comment about like, is it the suspension of disbelief?
41:04
And it's, it's interesting to say, you know, like if I was trying to equate
41:10
this to music, you know, like is magic just good old fashioned punk rock, good fun.
41:17
And the mentalism is like the opera where it hits you in your feels where you
41:23
just sit back and listen.
41:24
And it connects to you in such a way that you just start crying,
41:26
listening to this soprano sing, you know, in a language you don't even understand
41:31
but it hits you emotionally like it's,
41:34
it's an interesting place to be and it's worth having an opinion on,
41:38
yeah there was a great i'll put it in the discord but there was a great debate
41:43
on this exact topic but particularly with oz and we'd love to have oz on here
41:47
to like talk about this stuff too,
41:49
although his public profile might be too high to be able to come on here and
41:53
not have the public listen,
41:55
but like but oz if you're listening then we'd love to have you on but there
41:58
was a debate about him specifically in the claims on what he did,
42:04
and coming from a non-magician at all someone who's completely not a magician,
42:10
goes on and debunks like everything he's doing,
42:14
just purely for the fact that there's no one online doing that which means everyone's
42:18
agreeing what he's doing really is reading body language and that kind of stuff.
42:24
So he talks about like, and he's a lawyer, this guy, he brings up really good
42:28
points. And he's basically saying at the end of the day.
42:32
You can do the craziest, freakiest mind reading you want. But like,
42:36
if you at least claim you're a magician, then everything you do under that umbrella,
42:42
no matter how freaky, is okay. Because it is under the umbrella of, I'm a magician.
42:47
This is like conjuring. This is an illusion. This is a trick.
42:51
But if you do all this crazy stuff, and it's under the umbrella of, I'm a mentalist,
42:56
and I can do this because I have these skills that give me the appearance of
42:59
a fifth sense or whatever, sixth sense then,
43:04
now people are believing it's real and that's where it can alter people's,
43:08
realities outside of the out of the performance,
43:12
anyway i'll link it in the discord as well really interesting insights as to
43:16
what we're talking about but yeah on derren brown i mean i love derren brown
43:20
and he started as a magician which is funny like killer sleight of hand magic so So,
43:26
for him to go from that to psychological illusionist,
43:31
it obviously worked for him.
43:32
So, because it's more powerful, right?
43:36
Agreed. So I think that everything you're saying and the umbrella and being
43:43
honest, that all is great.
43:46
One of the most interesting examples I want to make mention now is one of Uri Geller.
43:53
Now, Uri Geller has been around since the 70s. He's been around for a while.
43:57
And Uri Geller is perhaps one of the most controversial examples of mentalism.
44:02
And that's because for years, he maintained his spoon bending abilities were genuine.
44:10
So for those of you who are unaware of his act, you regal up,
44:13
get a spoon on the show, use his mind tricks, bend it in front of people.
44:18
Go watch the Morgan Strebler DVD and that'll put a lot of things at ease as
44:23
to whether or not that is actually real or a trick.
44:26
Now, that being said, many magicians disagree, many scientists agree,
44:32
yet millions of people loved him and this created the important question at what point,
44:40
does entertainment come deception.
44:44
Now, I would like to give you an example of this where I couldn't find the exact amount,
44:51
but he stated that in 2018, there was an interview where he said that he was paid $1 million,
45:01
in the late 70s by a Mexican oil company to locate petroleum reserves.
45:08
So they paid him this flat fee for him to go about trying to find,
45:16
oil and stuff and he charged even then and i remember this because in in the
45:22
mid eight um mid 1980s it was here in australia as well where a mining company
45:26
paid him a bunch of cash to,
45:29
to help him share his mine probing techniques to find out where gold and diamonds
45:33
was buried in in like the solomon islands like that was a real thing that people
45:39
were approaching him with all this money thinking that he could,
45:43
do this and help them find stuff now.
45:49
You know, here's what he could do. He could say, all right, I'm going to point
45:52
out all the places where there aren't oil.
45:55
Yeah, there's no oil here. He's at a McDonald's.
45:59
He goes, I found oil. Dude, that's the deep fryer. Oh, but I found oil. Yeah.
46:06
And then you've got the off chance that if he does hit it, then,
46:10
you know, was his fee valid? Because he might have fluked it,
46:13
but like, you still found the thing you wanted.
46:16
So but no that is wrong it is wrong but it's.
46:21
That's crazy that that was a viable way of they thought trying to find oil oil reserves,
46:28
so it's an interesting thought and and you know it wasn't about getting us a
46:32
definitive answer on this show but it's the type of thing that i just give you
46:35
guys an opportunity to have a little think about and share your thoughts on it because,
46:39
the chat hasn't been this lit in forever and boy boy do you do you kids have
46:45
some opinions about this i get it so,
46:49
there is an ethical ground for us to stand on and how to do things and not do things,
46:55
but you know there's there's many ways to split this this atom and this there's
46:59
something as simple as like well look you know let's say that let's say you
47:03
read someone's mind and and you did a cold read and like,
47:09
after having that interaction, it inspired you to lose 300 pounds and get down
47:16
to your healthy weight and eliminate heart disease.
47:19
And because of this interaction you have with a magic trick,
47:22
my heart is now working because I had this trick done by Josh Nibido and it
47:27
changed my life. And now I'm the healthiest, happiest I've ever been.
47:31
And I was going to die I have heart disease and now I'm healthy.
47:34
Blah. Like, I mean, that could be it. I'm just saying that's a very loose example. But that...
47:40
You know, like erroneous of whether you, whatever you presented it as,
47:44
it's how they interpreted it.
47:47
So, yeah. Yeah. So look, where do you draw the line then?
47:53
You know? Well, Herbert has an opinion of that.
47:56
Funny you mentioned, says where to draw the line. Didn't Yuri try to sue Randy,
48:01
over this reputation and draw the line there?
48:04
I do believe that there was, there's an episode of when they brought him on
48:08
the show and then they brought him out just random.
48:11
You should see this. They gave him just straight up cutlery that he hadn't pre-prepared,
48:16
in order to do his effect. And you see him visibly trying to bend it on the
48:20
side of the chair. Like, you know?
48:23
So they called him out. They called him out. And...
48:28
Yeah, there's a level of controversy that surrounds that, you know?
48:33
I do love his Urigela. I will say he has one of the best tattoos I've ever seen. What is it?
48:40
It's the one, he literally has a spoon tattooed on his arm here.
48:45
So when he bends, it bends the spoon.
48:47
Right. So that's, he has a spoon for those listening going from his forearm
48:52
up to his like bicep so that when he bends his arm at the elbow,
48:56
it literally does bend the spoon.
48:58
That is pretty bloody funny that's kind of funny that is very funny actually yeah so,
49:04
look let this lament for a little bit and let's take a moment to sort of soak
49:08
that in and just if anything this is just to get you guys thinking and of course
49:12
if you have opinions we have a chat which is all about the podcast on the discord you can
49:18
you know continue the discussion in there and your thoughts in there after the episode but,
49:22
one of the topics i want to make oh sorry the things i want to talk about before
49:26
we wrap up is the argument about mixing magic and mentalism because many mentalists
49:32
believe that the two should remain separate,
49:36
and oh there it is there's the for the guys watching on the youtube yeah you
49:40
can see that uri geller has a tattoo that encompasses over his elbow which allows
49:44
him to bend a spoon by scratching his shoulders that is pretty funny actually yeah.
49:50
So he can claim that he can really bend spoons that's funny at least a spoon Yeah.
49:56
So the argument against it is the mentalists believe that magic and mentalism
50:01
should remain separate. And their reasoning is this.
50:05
Imagine a mentalist spends 30 minutes convincing an audience they can read minds.
50:08
And then suddenly they pull out a deck of cards and make the four aces appear.
50:13
The audience now has an explanation for everything that preceded it,
50:18
which is it's just tricks and the mastery disappears.
50:23
The credibility they'd spent convincing their audience over that time, that half hour,
50:31
basically collapses. And many mentalists argue that the visual magic damages
50:36
the belief in mentalism.
50:39
And once the audience knows you're a magician, every mind reading demonstration
50:43
becomes suspect and in their eyes weakens the mentalism.
50:51
Yeah. I mean, I can see how they would think that, right?
50:54
Because that is true. They're not going to believe you're a supernatural being,
50:59
but they shouldn't think that anyway yeah,
51:02
you know i mean and guys in the chat you know like tim's saying he doesn't see
51:06
any issue with with with the mixing and,
51:10
you know some people have different opinions of that but i think that when you
51:14
look at we're just trying to understand these perspectives now so this is the
51:18
mentalist perspective whereas others, like Tim Askin, they disagree.
51:22
So, here's an argument for it.
51:25
Others disagree because they argue that audiences already know that everything
51:30
is entertainment, and that modern audiences are smarter.
51:35
They're not sitting there wondering if someone has genuine psychic powers.
51:40
They're there to be amazed, and many successful performers do blend both worlds.
51:46
A prediction effect might use a playing card.
51:50
A drawing duplication might involve a very visual type of magic.
51:55
A thought of card revelation combines both disciplines perfectly when you think
52:01
about it. So the audience doesn't care about the categories.
52:06
They care about being entertained.
52:08
And from this perspective, mixing magic and mentalism creates a richer experience.
52:14
You get visual astonishment with the psychological mastery and from the magician's
52:21
point of view and from my point of view,
52:24
and i could be wrong and i'm happy to be proven in the other but my notion is
52:28
it's lovely to offer the best of both worlds.
52:32
What are your thoughts well you know let me actually let me ask you specifically
52:37
because i want you to talk upon something think of a card,
52:42
and then you and then you reveal it and this is something you're like anyone
52:45
who has the pleasure of watching your your socials you do this exceptionally right,
52:50
and people love it and just for reference like when we go to magic live the
52:53
amount of people that i've got to like,
52:55
take photographs of with josh and be like give me your phone i'll take a photo
52:58
you could you please i'm like yeah it's like josh is like a local celebrity
53:01
when we go to magic live so
53:03
you know off of off the back of these this style of magic so i wanted you to
53:07
speak to it when when you say think of a card reveal it,
53:11
what say you Yeah.
53:13
I mean, yeah, it was great to get tens of photos with people.
53:16
I mean, it wasn't like everyone, but it was very cool.
53:22
Yeah. I mean, like I said, I do that because I know it will invoke a strong
53:28
reaction from the person when you get those miracle moments,
53:31
because I do want it to feel, I do want it to feel, if I'm honest,
53:37
a feeling of beyond magic, right?
53:39
I do want it to feel like they're just freaked out there's no explanation,
53:44
But I'm doing it with a deck of cards and I'm saying I'm a magician.
53:47
So it's still under the umbrella of I am a magician. I'm not saying I know your every move and you will.
53:56
I will make you think of this card. You know, it's not that.
54:00
So I don't think there's any ethics playing up in here. But I think combining
54:03
the two personally work really well.
54:06
I wouldn't do a whole show of just that because, you know, it's quite hard.
54:12
The problem with mentalism too is it's quite hard to make it entertaining for
54:16
a whole show because it's essentially there's information you know that i don't
54:22
know and now i know it you know there's only so many ways you can keep,
54:26
doing a routine with that and trying to make it different and visual each time
54:31
like for the i would you know for the most part an entire mentalism show can
54:36
be boring unless you are those select few that that find ways to.
54:41
Do the opposite like Darren Brown great example right he mixes a lot of comedy
54:46
in it his timing so so smart the way he blends it but even he's blending something
54:51
he's blending comedy with mentalism I would say,
54:55
and yeah oh furthermore he's he's adding his psychological education you know
55:01
to to it as well so like it's okay to add those types of things you know,
55:05
yeah yeah and he's he's mixing in hypnosis as well which is so smart because that,
55:12
is a thing people know of outside of magic and yeah it's great here's an example
55:17
here's an example if you were presenting yourself as a master blackjack dealer you know or and you would
55:25
like just play a game of blackjack and just by looking at the cat you know that like,
55:30
you're not beating my hand you know like that like that that poker game has
55:35
the same type of thing you know you can look at each other and be like you're
55:37
bluffing you're not going to beat me you know and you and that's a premise in itself now,
55:43
these are examples that kind of blow the line which is something i wanted to touch upon as well.
55:47
Where blurring the line is kind of mixing them both, but is it or is it not?
55:52
So let me give you an example. So some people in the chat are making some certain
55:56
comments and really blurring the lines, and I get that, right?
55:59
Like it's totally fine. So let's just explore blurring the line real quick,
56:02
which is basically when a card appears inside an envelope, right?
56:08
Is that magic or mentalism?
56:10
Yeah, it depends on the lens, right? Correct. So let's add one aspect.
56:16
If a signed card appears inside an envelope, that is magic.
56:22
Yeah. But if a spectator thinks of, of a word, thinks of a word and that card's
56:30
in an envelope and then they open it, that is mentalism.
56:35
It can be, it can be mentalism. Yeah. Yeah.
56:37
You know, there's another thing I'm just realizing too, is,
56:41
if you're really a mentalist and people believe you are you might get hired to,
56:47
talk on stage to teach their staff about body language i talked about it before
56:52
or write a book on it or find oil in the ground but if you're a magician,
56:58
like the the amount of card work i do is is a lot and people always say oh.
57:06
You must go to the casino all the time. You must be banned. We should go there and I'll joke about it.
57:11
You'll see me there later. I'll be wearing a wig. Don't make a big deal.
57:14
I'll help you win millions.
57:16
But not a single person in my 15 years of doing magic has ever honestly called
57:23
me for real and said, I've got 10 grand.
57:27
Help me double it at the casino. They know I'm a magician and not really going
57:32
to do that even though i'm saying a lot of that stuff at my gig it's all it's
57:37
still under the umbrella of magician like.
57:41
Have you ever had someone for real call you up like actually like,
57:45
completely yeah let's go do this yeah i was in i was in,
57:50
i was in guitar and this guy was like no we're going to the thing you're going
57:55
to gamble for me and we're going to have a good night and i said no i can't
57:59
i got a flight in the morning and everyone looked at me like no one says no to this guy,
58:02
and i was like no no no don't worry about your flights we're gonna go do this
58:05
and i was like no i'm flying tomorrow thank you but no thank you and everyone
58:09
came up and was just like yo no one ever says no to this guy and i'm like well
58:13
i do and then they pointed to go see those three buildings across the water
58:17
these three motels i go yeah he goes well they're his,
58:20
no one tells him no and i'm like i do so yeah and now like you should leave,
58:26
but with his points he he it sounds like he wanted to take you to the casino,
58:32
and you're going to have a fun time,
58:34
because he but that's not necessarily saying like i'm going to give you a million
58:38
dollars and you're going to double it because he was like you're going to make
58:42
me money is what he was saying but like.
58:44
That whole stupid premise of you know when people say things like that so okay
58:48
well it turns out people do do that if you're good enough at that level you
58:53
can achieve anything is my point we're talking about a guy who owns half of
58:56
Dubai or whatever it was.
58:57
I mean, I was in guitar actually, but yeah. But so look, erroneous of that.
59:04
It's it's a falsehood what we're presenting like we're good at cards but if
59:08
you put us at a table with cameras and security and everything else like we're
59:12
not going to be able to achieve what we want to achieve so like there is a falsehood
59:15
as to what we're doing okay
59:17
and to profess anything other is interesting because,
59:21
you know under test test conditions we are going to fail to some degree you
59:26
know and we can talk about like remote viewing in another episode where that's
59:29
been a whole thing And I've read books on it, like scientific studies.
59:33
That's just been so crazy. And people, when that thing was coming across the
59:38
sky, you know, and we had that, that stupid asteroid and everyone's like, that's a spaceship.
59:41
And then everyone's going, I remote viewed into it and it's got all this stuff
59:44
in there and it's like, okay, cool.
59:47
I'm sure you believe that, but we, that's the thing it's hyperbole,
59:50
you know, and it's very easy to predict the future for someone that might not
59:54
ever happen. You know, like you're going to step in, you're going to step in
59:57
horse crap on the way to the car after this episode, just so you know.
1:00:00
And then, and then you do, and it's like, you could exactly.
1:00:05
Then again, you could not, but I told you that you could, which is why it didn't
1:00:07
happen. And that's hyperbole. It can change. But I think there's two points
1:00:11
we want to hold up as we've just crossed over the hour. So let's wrap this up
1:00:14
by saying that the difference isn't really the methods.
1:00:19
I think that the difference that we got to talk about majorly is the goal.
1:00:23
Magic is more so, can I make you see the impossible? Yeah.
1:00:30
And mentalism is, can I make you question the impossible?
1:00:36
So you see something in magic that you typically don't believe.
1:00:39
But when you experience it in mentalism, you start questioning,
1:00:43
like, could this be real? You know?
1:00:49
So magician will create wonder. A mentalist will create an uncertainty.
1:00:55
A magician makes impossible things happen. and so impossible things happen.
1:01:02
Mentalist is more like impossible thoughts happened.
1:01:07
They're both powerful. They're both valuable.
1:01:11
They're just aiming at different targets, I think is the main thing.
1:01:15
So if we wrap up with this final thought, it's that,
1:01:21
when I asked myself the question, where is the line between magic and mentalism?
1:01:27
The truth is there probably isn't one.
1:01:30
This is a spectrum. At one end sits pure magic, and at the other sits this psychological mentalism.
1:01:39
And most performers live somewhere in between. The real question isn't whether
1:01:44
mentalism is magic. The real question, I think, is what experience do you want your audience to have?
1:01:52
And do you want them to leave seeing how did he do that?
1:01:56
Or do you want them to leave saying, what if he really knew that?
1:02:01
And that's the kind of difference I think between the magic game and the mentalism
1:02:05
game, because that tiny difference may be the single thing that separates a
1:02:11
magician from the mentalist.
1:02:13
And perhaps that's what makes a debate like this so fascinating and that's my final thought on it josh,
1:02:20
i agree man and i think do what you want do what you want i love it mentalism
1:02:26
magic mind reading great do it all just you know don't scam people out of them
1:02:32
believing in that thing just,
1:02:35
make it clear that it's entertainment and i think we're good and and you know
1:02:38
what because look for example i know we're talking about mixing card and magic and whatever,
1:02:43
there is a thing that derren brown talked about where magicians think differently
1:02:47
to layman and if you ask a magician to name a card but not an obvious card go
1:02:53
for one you know like a darker like not a queen of hearts try and go the opposite way,
1:02:58
you can kind of predict what they will think and depending on how close i get
1:03:02
to this for those watching.
1:03:05
You might think I literally read your mind or you might think I literally have
1:03:08
control of your mind, but at the end of the day, it is a trick.
1:03:11
So like really do this, okay?
1:03:13
If you're listening to this, just say a card out loud so you're committed to it.
1:03:17
Okay, you've kind of heard the way I was directing you, but just go with it.
1:03:21
And if you're in the comments, you can type the card if you want to commit beforehand.
1:03:25
So I won't move this card out of frame. Like really do this.
1:03:30
Because normally with magicians, this is like a 90% hit rate.
1:03:34
Okay so you could have named really do say it out loud you could have said any
1:03:39
card out loud named any card out loud but if you're a magician and i said don't
1:03:45
pick an obvious card you very well may have named,
1:03:51
thanks for listening it's time for us to disappear now disappear now but we'll
1:03:57
see you again on the next episode of the magic guys.