Latest / The Masonic Journey / The Lantern on the Mountain with RJ Johnson
Transcript
- Josh Kelley: Hello, welcome to the Masonic Journey Podcast. today I have a special guest. we have Robert Johnson. He is the host of the Whence Came You Podcast He is also on the Masonic Roundtable Podcast as well. and found in a few other places throughout the world. So Robert, how are you doing today, man? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I'm doing great. thank you so much for having me on. This is a real pleasure and an honor to just be able to come on and and talk with you, my my good friend. We're new friends, but I Josh Kelley: I don't know. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I I really enjoyed our time talking when we got to and and having you on the WCY Podcast as well. So it's it's just great, man. Thanks for having me on. Josh Kelley: Yeah. It was nice to have you on each other's Podcast for sure. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: We start off talking about people's Masonic journey, what brought them to Masonry, how you were introduced to Freemasonry, the experience you've shared throughout. So tell me a little bit about yourself. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Well, I first learned of Freemasonry when I was you know, in my early twenties. I worked at a photo lab and I worked with a diverse group of people and we were all photographers who worked at the photo lab for the discount, you know. it was it was a good time. And I had met this friend of mine. He came from a very traditional Japanese household. and his his father was an architect, in Orange County, California. And my friend, his name is Yukatero Hamata, he was not into architecture at all. So his dad wasn't always excited about that, I think. but Yuki, as we call him, he lent me a book that was called Masonic Tapestries. And I was flipping through the pages and I became very interested in just the artwork itself, which led me to, you know, go down the rabbit hole way back in 2003, 2004, looking at Freemasonry. And I read all this stuff about it, and I went to visit a lodge in Orange, California. And I I was gonna knock on the door there, but at this time in my life, like I it was a very strange thing. They Had like this plaque on the wall with these obscure directions that were like, hey, knock on the door three times on the third Wednesday of the third, you know, whatever it was. And it just sounded like hocus pocus crazy stuff to me. And I was like, uh-uh. And so I'd left it there. and then several years later, my wife and I moved to Illinois, and we had our our son had been born and I had reached out to the Grand Lodge of Illinois via a web inquiry and I say, Hey, I'm kind of interested. What can you tell me? Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Next thing you know, the local lodge secretary calls me on the phone like two days later, invites me to lunch, and kind of the rest is history. it was a really great experience joining. My mother lodged as a very like traditional sense, not like traditional observant Masonry or anything, but like traditional in the sense of very community focused. the Brotherhood is that kind of brotherhood you're looking for, I think, you know. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: guys really are connected to each other. And yeah, I mean I Masonry first pulled me in because you know, I was really looking for something different. I was I was on a search for, I think we talked about this, you know, real answers to some of the the big questions in life that and you know, those those big questions aren't always single answers, right? They're experiences and and feelings and and those kinds of things. and my dad being in the military, I spent some time in Italy. I was really surrounded by Renaissance art and literature and culture. And so the fraternity just seemed to be kind of a a natural place for me to gravitate toward eventually. you know, I didn't join for the social clubs or community recognition per se. I wanted the, you know, quote unquote work to be real intellectual and philosophical work. So I kind of pictured Josh Kelley: Right. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: late I I pictured late nights with guys sitting around a lodge, you know, intensely discussing Plato, Aristotle, you know, Thomas Aquinas or whatever. And Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: what I initially found was, you know, just kind of a you know, I loved our lodge, but there was room for things to happen in our organization that just hadn't in a long time probably, and so it was like out of the ordinary. And so what I found was, you know, an organization wholly kind of I don't wanna say very mechanical, surface level execution ritual, bogged down by mundane administrative business and so on. So yeah. Josh Kelley: Yeah. And a lot of things have changed in Masonry. And I listened to your Podcast today and you were reading an article where a brother was almost giving an omen to what Freemasonry has become in a way, saying if we don't focus on the education and the learning but you know I think I got I got that same experience going to lodge. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: We did talk, but it wasn't really anything deep and I had to find the people to talk to. to Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Right. Josh Kelley: and once I found them, I gathered everybody else and started pulling them in the rabbit hole too. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: You know, but I think this is what's really interesting, right? Joe Martinez, it started as a joke, I think, but he really believes it. And I really feel like it's true, even though it's like maybe one of the the I just love to make fun of it. It's so stupid, right? Be the change. Is he loves saying, Be the change. And I think much to what you were just describing, bringing people together and sort of having a like l like an affirmation of purpose and then everybody's like, yeah, I was kinda looking for that too, but I didn't really want to make a big deal of it and and now we don't do that. And then you're all together and you kinda go, Well, what if we did, Josh? I and then it you know what I mean? So it's it's it's really interesting to see the evolution of lodges, you know. I mean I I didn't actually join and I became a master mason in two thousand and eight. So there was a long time between my sort of initial inquiry and interest until you know, I actually joined and when I did, things were pretty stagnant. But now And you know this just as well as anybody. I mean Masonic education is a thousand times bigger than it was. Unfortunately, you know, we I think we were in you know, if it was our bank account, we'd be several thousand in the negative at that time. And you know, maybe now we got ten, fifteen bucks in there, so we pull ourselves out of the hole. Josh Kelley: Hey, that's a start there. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Absolutely. Josh Kelley: So let me ask you this. What kind of experience did you have that shaped you? And and how has that changed over the years? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: so it was really weird. I my whole life I was just everything was just fine, right? And then I one night I was sleeping in my bed and my bed was the head of the bed was like against the wall and on the other side of that wall, I'll give away my my age a little bit here, my dad was on the other side of the wall Josh Kelley: Dad was on the other side of Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, so I think what I basically I overheard my dad one night talking on the phone to my brother who was in New York. And at the time we were living in Naples, Italy. he was stationed out there, we were living there, and I'll give away my age a little bit here. He had a telephone table. So if you don't know what that is, Josh Kelley: Yep. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: back in the day people were you know, you had to sit in a chair by a telephone table that held your wired telephone and make phone calls. And so my dad was talking to my brother and it was l pretty late for us, and that's because You know, my brother's in New York and we were in Italy and so time differential there. But anyway, I overheard my dad basically telling my brother that he had lung cancer and it was like terrible. And so that we were gonna be moving to San Diego, California, go back to Miramar Ranch out there, you know, where the blue angels fly and all that good stuff, Top Gun, and he was gonna get treatment. And that like I had a weird midlife crisis. at like eleven. Right? And so this changed the way I thought about everything. Right, philosophically speaking, theologically, like you I wouldn't have known what theology meant at the time, but thinking back like, you know, at this point I'm raised Roman Catholic, I'm going to church every Sunday, first service in Latin, second service in English, and then halfway through the English, right, my parents send me up to Sunday school. And so like I have all this going on and then these big questions start happening, like they do with anybody. and so after a while, right, I lose my dad and we you know, all this stuff happens and I'm just kind of coasting through life, you know what I mean? And but Because of that, like I don't have a dad anymore. there's no real positive role models in my life. Like I've got my uncle, a couple of my uncles were really cool, but you know, they're not like in your life, like every day. And I just kind of put it in the back of my mind, like I just didn't care about it. And then I joined the Lodge, right? So that experience, when I joined the Lodge, after my first degree, all of a sudden I had 30 dads, Josh. It was crazy. And I didn't Josh Kelley: Yeah. I know. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: know, I didn't know there was a hole in my heart right there. You know what I mean? Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: and these guys filled it. They like filled my cup, dude. And that's when the experience really sort of changed for me. in terms of the fellowship. But as we talked about before, sort of that's half the equation, right? So I had this kind of stark contrast that that, you know, forced my understanding of the craft to sort of evolve, right? In the beginning, I sort of again naively assumed that Masonic education was something that we already all covered. And when I realized it was just kind of basic ritual instructions, I threw my passion into education, the esoteric, spiritual, occult concepts that sort of, you know, Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: that underpin all of our symbols. And that experience is what drove that deep dive into the stuff we normally don't see in lodges, right? It's like it's like when your parents say, Don't do that, you just go do that. If they ban a book, I go read it, right? It's just kinda the kind of person Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: you might be. And so the lack of something caused, you know, it was a a true vacuum of the thing, you know, caused me to get sucked in as you would. You know, so over the years I went from hoping the fraternity was a a perfect mystical monolith, right? and now I think retrospectively thinking about it, you know, now Masonry to me I accept that masonry is just one path among many. but it's my favorite one, right? It's the one that I choose to to put my All my eggs in that basket. And people say, Don't do that, but I do because I love this fraternity. And it be just it's it's given so much back to us, right? So those experiences have essentially put me on a place that I genuinely love the fraternity and I love the people that I've met through the fraternity. There's a line of ritual that talks about Masonry who brings together people who have otherwise remained at a perpetual distance. I go to my whole life not knowing that Josh Kelley existed. Never Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: finding your book, never reading it, never going, dang, this guy's on to something, right? And I think that's Like to me it's not just the shame. I think things like that are scary. Like there are things that I experience with people because I try to be very intentional and be present with people, I think about how all of those interactions really do shape everything that we do and everything that we're involved in. And so I just think it's it's it's sort of scary to think about who you could have been had you not had Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: positive influences or, you know, you know, negative in in stuff has definitely impacted us all as well. But yeah. Josh Kelley: You gotta take the light and the dark. You got it's a balance Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Exactly. Josh Kelley: between it and and it makes you who you are. And that's a lot of people wanna fight against those negative things in their life. But man, it just it makes you who you are. People ask me a lot of times, do you regret the stuff you went through? And I gotta say I wish I hadn't had to go through that. I don't regret because it made me who I am today. And you know, that's the bad thing, you know, the things that that that hurt to your core, you know, like Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: your dad losing your dad, that's that's huge, you know, that's that's that's Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: that's a major for a for a kid your age, the age you were, that's, you know, we don't we don't wanna you know we don't wanna think about things like that. When we're forced to it it it does change it. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, and and at the same time, you know, I'm not like I know it was tragic, right? But I also recognize that, you know, some people have had it way worse, right? And so it but but then I think, you know, it it's sort of you you kind of count your blessings, right? And you you hope for everybody to be able to kind of overcome all of those things, but Josh Kelley: But we can't measure our pain by other people's. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I've never heard that, but yeah. There you go. Josh Kelley: Yeah, I mean what I'm experiencing is what I'm experiencing. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: it's and what you're experiencing is what you're experiencing. And that's why, you know, I may think, well, that's pretty dumb, but that's not my pain So again, I don't think that about you, but you know, in general, you know, Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm. No, yeah, yeah. Josh Kelley: we may think that's dumb, you know, what someone's going through, you know, they're real to them. That's what's shaping them So what's how is your understanding of masonry kind of evolve? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Well I think it's evolved to a point where having gone through the degrees, gone through the chairs, I was a district deputy grandmaster, I was a district education officer. I had about seven lodges under my wings for a few minutes. and listen, a very amazing experience. I've been the secretary of my of all of my lodges that I've ever been a part of. I've been the secretary for a a number of years. And all very rewarding. however I think that just as in any organization the honeymoon is over at a point. and and people will say, yes, you get out of it what you put into it. And as stupid as that is, I hate that saying, but it's true, you gotta have some investment. And you sort of sow your own seeds, if you will. And I kind of realized after a while, not being jaded or anything, but the Freemasonry is actually two separate things. There's a bureaucratic organization that's beholden to the Grand Lodge's financial survival. And there's also this profound philosophy, or you know, as we might say, a school of wisdom. a and I don't believe masonry is dying. I think, you know, I've I've been, you know, preaching the whole like not dying refining thing and people and and we got John Ruark who's, you know, God bless him for his data work in this, but you know, he has this predictive model that that nobody's left in in 2040. And that's not very far away. But it's like well the reality is is if I'm alive in 2040 then there's one. You know, I'm pretty sure, you know, Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: we we're not going anywhere. But what I my understanding of masonry has sort of changed as masonry has been changing over the last ten or fifteen years. In the beginning I had my my beliefs about it, what I thought it needed. I learned to sort of curtail those beliefs because listen, just like you said earlier, you're you alluded to, you know, feelings and and measuring your feelings against somebody else's. In that same way, I can't measure what I want out of the fraternity for what somebody else wants out of the fraternity. a and so it took some time to sort of realize that and and to sit in this sort of uncomfortable silence of that masonry is in fact many things to many people. And it's not that what I said for years, which is masonry is one thing, it's education. And while I believe that, it's also Brotherhood and fraternity and you know, all of those other things. but I do feel that the you know, the true work is an education of a sort. So it's a big umbrella. It doesn't necessarily all you know, short talk bulletins nine to five, you know, at every lodge meeting. It's sitting around listening to your brothers tell stories about how he got knocked out of his boots when a lightning struck his work site. Like it doesn't matter what it is. You're learning, you know, you are. And so yeah, that's kinda how it's evolved over the years for me. I'm at a point now where Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: it's just it's a lot of things and my my brain has accepted the sort of plurality of of what it is to many people. Josh Kelley: So what are you passionate about? you know, I we all involved in a lot of different things. now I had to come to the realization when I was joining everything, and I'm fairly newer in Freemasonry than a lot of most people, in fact, only three years mason. So, but to me, I I jumped into everything right away, you Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: know, super excited about everything. And when I What I had to learn what's most important. And to me, that's really the lesson of the the twenty four inch gauge is what's important and what's what you know, we only have so much time. Yeah, yeah, we have this time of the day, but use it wisely, but you only have so much time. You can't make that stick longer. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: So I had to figure out what was important to me and what what I was passionate about and that's what I focused on. So for you, what are you what are you passionate about? What makes you tick? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: For me it's exploratory. I feel Josh Kelley: It's Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: like, you know, you're digging through tomes of information and maybe you're gonna find I'm not gonna find this profound, you know, secret, right? But I am gonna find profound philosophical meaning. I love it. I feel like a a verbal archaeologist in a sense. And I think a lot of us do, you know, when we this idea that you can pick up a book. Like the fact that you can pick up Marcus Aurellius' diary, right? I saw a comic one time and it was You know, somebody was talking to Marcus Aurellius and they were like, Yeah, in the future they're just gonna read your diary. And he's like, What? this idea that you can you you can experience somebody else's literal thoughts that that came out of their brain, out of their consciousness. You can experience those by reading them. And this is such a like profound idea of like a time machine to me. And so I love that. I love the history of the craft. Obviously, but what makes me tick is what I consider a path of enlightenment that exists in Freemasonry through a curated intense and intentional experience for a candidate. a fellow craft or a new master mason. And that doesn't mean like I'm all about the ritual, I'm all about, you know, letter perfect ritual. You mentioned you listened to the show. One of the things that was in the most recent episode was this dude was talking about people are so clutched onto the ritual that that's the only thing they seem to have time for. Josh Kelley: Yeah, I'm do Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: is to practice it and to memorize it. And there's no time spent learning what it means. And Josh Kelley: Right Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I think if you can learn what it means, it expands the experience, not just for the candidate, the fellow, or the master, right? But for the the person performing it. the person and I am saying performance, because ritual is a performance. It's not supposed to just be it's not a recital, right? We're not sitting there, you know, when when my pastor was like, Hey, memorize the books of the Bible and next Friday you have to recite them in front of me, right? That's not what this was. This is a performance that is an experience that you're you're putting for somebody to change their whole life. And so I find that my passion is is in providing that experience and by exploring what comes next, which to me is you know this sort of true work Masonic education finding meaningful Masonic education not not just a five minute you know short talk bulletin but in a very interesting way right like you wrote The Path of Light which was your path and that to me like if I can and if you can if we can write something that puts somebody on a path or they find affirmation in or just it connects with them, then for me, that's what I like. That's what drives me It sounds so stupid, like when we're young, we're all like, success driven, you gotta get that bread, man. You gotta work, work, work, hustle, hustle. And I got to a point in my life where I was like, man, you know, Bob Marley said you you you win the race when you stop running. And I was like, that's what's up. And I and what I take from that is not necessarily like, kick back and not do anything. It's hey Stop running around and experience what's in front of you. And and and make those experiences, those connections, and and be present in whatever you're doing, right? so yeah, that's pretty much it, man. Josh Kelley: And you know, it's that whole you're talking about that information versus transformation. Really, it's Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yes. Josh Kelley: That's really what it comes down to. Are you get are you are we just getting information with those words? Are we actually being transformed by it and are we teaching other people how to be transformed? how do we put it into practice? And that's what that's a you know, that's the difference between eisegesis and exegesis. You know, we're it's it's getting that information out there where people can actually transform and change our lives. And that's That's important thing. So I love what you said there. One of the ways you've decided to do that in your life is actually your Podcast. So Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: Whence Came You Podcast? I think pretty sure it's one of the longest, if not the longest running Masonic podcasts that there is that out there. You have Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: more episodes than anybody I've ever seen. So if there's someone else out there with more episodes, I haven't met them. Yay, good for you. So Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Woo Yeah, right. Josh Kelley: so why the Podcast? Tell me why why we did this. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: So it's so funny because, you know, it it began as just a simple weekly Podcast to share some deeper thoughts. at the time I did a lot of teaching I worked in aviation. and so as a teacher in that field, I was looking at things like how people learn, right? Whether that's physical, audio, kinesthetic, visual, whatever it is. And personally, I'm a kinesthetic or a hands-on person. And yeah, and I I can learn from a video, but I watch it several times to grasp something. Audibly I do okay with, but you know, and reading it, reading kind of lays a foundation, seeing it puts it together, listening to it reinforces it, but doing it with my own hands is like, now I know it inside and out, and I can like sort of explode it, right, if I need to. And so I started looking for Masonic Education anywhere I could find it. And at the time, podcasts were really sort of kinda new, kinda niche. Not everybody had a Podcast. And I love the medium, even though several times, you know, various magazines over the years, Fast Company, you know, Fortune magazines and all these the Podcast is dead because everybody's got one. They're meaningless. Well they're not, right? They're not. And and what proves it is Netflix now has podcasts that you can watch. just like this. So so to that end, I I was thinking, you know, what would help me learn? I will record me reading an article and I will then put it on I was just gonna like record it and listen to it so that I could hear more, you know, like a understand it right. It started maybe with the lectures or something. I wanted to hear it and learn it. So as I was looking for Masonic Education Online, I came across this dude, Scott Blaskin, and he's still out there. As far as I know, he's still making Podcast episodes he might be. He might still be make. But he was like the first Masonic podcaster. He was called the Digital Freemason. And he just went for it. And I loved his episodes because on every episode he starts it off with this clip from Hunter S. Thompson's Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. So good. Anyway, so I loved what Scott was doing. Josh Kelley: Yeah, there you go. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: And I said, you know. I I'm not trying to take any of his thunder or anything, but I'd like to do something similar, maybe more long format. He was reading short Masonic papers and giving some insights and it was really cool. It was so great. And I I think he's just the bee's knees. So I said, Let me record an episode and I'll put it out. And I was looking around where to host things. I was like, you can't really do this in any real successful way that anybody's gonna find it or be reliably able to download it unless you pay a little bit of money. Like you gotta pay a server or a host or whatever. And I was like, All right. So I bit the bullet and I think I started with like a five dollar a month plan, right? That let me like upload a an episode and I would it'd be like the worst quality audio maybe. And Josh Kelley: Right, yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: 'Cause you just don't know what to do. Like I I bought a one hundred dollar Podcast kit off of Amazon.com from Behringer Audio. It was a mic, two track mixer, a four track mixer, and just some cables or whatever. And I was like, All right, let's do it. And and I put an episode out, and then I did another one. And then I did another one. And this was just like three episodes, one every other week or something silly like that. And I would I would throw up on Sundays so people could listen to on Mondays. And I had no intention of doing this at all forever or for any number of episodes. It was just kinda like, okay, I'm on a read today. It's like my reading time, so I'll just record it. And that's what I did. and then I we had this huge storm roll through, knocked power out for like a week. Like the kind where my kids are walking door to door to our neighbors offering candles. Like it was a bad storm. And when everything finally got back up, I checked my email and I had like emails from truckers who were masons. And I was like, What the heck? What And they like, Hey man, what happened? You haven't you didn't release a Podcast last week And I was like, Well I don't have to release a Podcast last week. Leave me alone, right? Like this is just a hobby, right? And my wife was like, That's crazy And what what it was was the guy was like, I feel like I can be a little bit in lodge, even though I haven't been able to go to lodge in ten years 'cause I'm on the road. And I was like, dang You know? And and so at this point there were a handful of Masonic podcasts, but they were kind of either all on for a little while and then off and on and off and so I was like, Well, I got nothing better to do at midnight. than to just read and record, right? 'Cause I'm a night owl. And so I did. And, you know, now that that was in July of two thousand and eleven. so yeah. It was Josh Kelley: You were pretty new in Freemasonry when you started podcasting. Well. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, yeah. It raised in eight, nine, ten, eleven. Hey look, three years, bro. The magic number. Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: Hey. That's it. There we go. There we go. You know, it's interesting but with the with podcasting because it is it is very different. And you should see my you should go back and look at my go to the Masonic Journeys YouTube channel and watch my first one. I have me and a few guys from my lodge and we're sitting there, it was the worst quality ever. We're just all sitting at Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Ha ha ha. Josh Kelley: a table. Yeah, can't even hear us. And then we're our big thing was the whiskey of the week and the we had then we had a whiskey and cheese tasting and stupid Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: That's You know what though? Josh Kelley: stuff. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: It you know, that's not stupid though. I find that those are the kind Josh Kelley: It's not, yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: those are the kind of things I mean you're you're you you just recorded legit things that people are holding up here for the rest of their lives these memories of something. And and just like a dude was in the truck and he's like, I felt like I was back at lodge again. Seeing that probably makes somebody else go, man, I feel like I'm I'm sitting at lodge again. I can sit down and I can Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: you know and I feel like I can get back to lodge. Or or maybe they see that and they go, dang Josh, I think I'm gonna go back to back to lodge next week. I haven't been back in a while and man, I'd really Really like to sit around till 4 a.m. with these guys, you know, whatever the case is. But my yeah, yeah, that's the best, right? Yeah, totally. Josh Kelley: We did that before. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. I just remember I remember my first episodes too. I think I had like a hundred and fifty episodes out at one point, and I got an email from some dude, and he was like, Hey man. You gotta do something about your audio. And my heart sank. And I was like, What? I thought I was doing pretty good with my audio, dude. And and he goes Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I have to turn it up so loud in order to hear and it's really bad because you know the guy's like, I smoke and so I have to roll my window down and I can't hear anything. You know, 'cause the with the w the you know, the the wind or whatever, and I'm like, dude. And then I just I'm like, you know the scene in Spaceballs? you seen space balls, right? So so President Scr Josh Kelley: Yeah yeah yeah course of course. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: s President Screw, like he gets beamed over and he's backwards and he goes, Why didn't somebody tell me my butt was so big? Right? It this is me. I Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: was like, why didn't somebody tell me my audio was so low? So yeah, I it's all a learning curve, man. Like I didn't know anything about audio engineering or doing any of this stuff. It's just learning Josh Kelley: Yeah, for sure. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: on the fly. Josh Kelley: Yeah, I I get ya. What lessons have you learned through this? you know what what what were your some of your favorite guests and favorite conversations or lessons you taught? What wh which ones are your favorites? You got seven hundred and Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, there's there's so many. I think some of my favorite episodes well I think Josh Kelley: You can say it was me, it's okay. Just kidding. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: You were a wonderful interview. I will tell you that. No, no, seriously. It it was a great interview. we got to talking about what I feel like, you know, we can never be satisfied that Frederick Nietzsche i in Thus Spoke Zarathustra says he there's this there's this tale, right, where he says, You all think you were the ebb of human evolution. He's like, How foolish, right? He's talking about you have to keep pushing and pushing and pushing to be better and better and better. You can't be you can't think that you are like, you know, the top rung of whatever it is, the best designed thing. And so in that, when I think about the progressive science of masonry and the progressive mind that it cultivates in the individual, the viewpoints I hold now are so much more I feel like caring, empathetic, more understanding of people and where they come from. And and that didn't that doesn't make me or my brain weak, right? This just sort of expands my ability to connect with people and this sort of eventual revelation of the idea of experience a connection with people and the things around us, like That is, in fact, you know, one of my favorite episodes because I got to talk about that thing, you know, where I'm at and I you know, we're we're w what you've been writing about for a while. I think my favorites are are probably I did a series a long time ago and it was called Ten for or Ten with Ten or something like that. It was Ten Questions with Ten Worshipful Masters who were all sitting. That was the caveat. They had to be ten they had to be ten questions for a sitting worshipful master. And so I got I got guys from all over The United States. I first sat down with my my good friend and brother Scott DuBall, as my best friend. He was the sitting master at DC Krigier Lodge in the Arlington Heights area in Illinois. And He opened the door to these conversations and I remember we recorded this over pancakes. It just seemed appropriate. we had the recorder sitting on a table. Josh Kelley: Cool. Yeah. Cool little pancake breakfast. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, in a diner. You can hear the stuff going on behind us and the conversation. You feel like you're at the table when you listen to it. Some of favorites. We had several of those conversations, but that one with Scott was particularly one of my favorites. I had another one with a guy named what most people know as Frater O or Brother O. we had initially, he was the guy that we dove deep onto the esoterics, right? I said, Well, if I do it by myself, I'm gonna maybe get flamed online or something. Like, he's weird, witchy dude. but if I have somebody to sort of help shoulder Josh Kelley: Right. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: The burden of being weird. let's do it. Yeah, yeah. Josh Kelley: Embrace it. Yep. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: So those conversations with with my friend Frater O were were excellent. And I I spoke to a dude who wrote a book called Steinbeck Citizen Spy, who was a brother and that was an excellent interview. Just recently I was watching Expedition Unknown with Josh Gates. And one of the experts on the TV that he was with was Michael Karpovage, who I interviewed on the Podcast. several years ago, 'cause he's a Mason and he's a he's a map maker. And now he's on T V. Like, what this is so crazy cool. So yeah, there's just some some really cool episodes when I think back about those things, but what crew I had I got Chris Hodap let me record a lecture he gave when he was in like kind of mid Illinois area. He'd let me record it and put it on the Podcast for my hundredth episode. It just like I don't know, goofy stuff like that. but it's always it's like the the the Dr. Seuss book, Mulberry Street, where the kid is always trying to sort of exaggerate something that happened, but the thing that happened was already sort of extraordinary. Right? And so he feels like he's gotta like bolster it up. And I f and I find that like Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: The most there is so much of the extraordinary in the ordinary that we you know, i in a in all of these these episodes. So yeah, there's been some really good ones. and and fond friendships and and brotherhood has, you know, blossomed from those. So yeah. Josh Kelley: Great. That's really great. you know, I've I've liked that that's one thing I've enjoyed about me doing a Podcast, writing books, and I get to meet people I never would have met before. I Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: consider it a huge privilege, you know, to be able to but then I then I want to talk about those people. Well, you know, hey yeah, I'm getting I begin to know RJ, you know, and to me you're RJ, you yeah, you talk Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: I'm talking my wife, yeah. I talked to RJ to about we were messaging about this, and you know, he Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: he likes he likes this idea about that we're that I'm thinking about he thinks it's a good idea, but he gave me some great advice. So I mean just but I always feel like now when I'm at lodge I I I've been trying to hold pull back because I know some great things coming down the pipe that I feel like I'm name dropping with this with some people I talk to and people I'm friends with. And it it's just weird because Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: yeah. I've I I feel the same way, right? Like like I have texted with Chris Hodapp. I have texted you Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: know it's like these guys like Art De Hoyos. I sat next to him at a festive board and we talked about stuff that I thought Art De Hoyos would never talk about. Just, you know, it's Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: it's really cool and in and as you said, what a privilege, right? to to to be able to stand in the room with some of these titans. It's awesome. Josh Kelley: coolest people walk around the hallway when you're sitting there selling books. So yeah. Just Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: R yeah. Yeah. Josh Kelley: wander up to your table like, hey, yeah. So wait a second. I know I know your voice. So Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm. Josh Kelley: I know your face. I read your books. That's a big thing. You know, I'm man. Guys I've met written a lot of books so and did it well. I wrote a little Facebook post. Page and it was really to remind myself of listening to a band called Switchfoot and they have a song called Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: yeah. Josh Kelley: Adding to the Adding to the Noise. And that really hit me differently now. You know, the lyrics of the song are if we're adding to the noise, turn off this song. The world's so loud already, if we're adding to the noise, if we're not saying something meaningful and important, then what's the point? You know, and That's that at least that's what I took out of it, you know. So Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: it's it's it's it seems like there's so much noise in Freemasonry right now. I mean, everybody's got I mean I see things all the time, AI generated stuff, it's all which I'm not against AI at all. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I'm not either. Josh Kelley: There and when me, when an author uses AI for as a tool to write something. different from an AI impersonating an author. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: distinction makes sense or not, but say, yeah, I wanna see but I see some of the things that are out there that just, you know, it's just you can tell they just said, Hey, make something Masonic. They just put it out there, you know. Seems sometimes. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, i and it's really it's really interesting too because you can immediately tell the art style. and yeah, yeah, for sure. But Josh Kelley: Yeah. My book covers. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: but I think I think used appropriately is a do whatever you want with it. But Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: but also understand that you're gonna get some criticisms from people. I think it was my Gosh. a musician recently was just quoted as saying something along the lines of everybody's freaking out about AI. They did the same thing with synthesizers and drum tracks back in the day. Like, Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: it's a tool. Use it how you want to use it. And and I don't think, yeah, I people who think like, you know, you're gonna let AI is not gonna make you a million bucks as a writer. Like it's just not, sorry. Josh Kelley: Well yeah. Being a writer's not gonna make you a million bucks. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, I think we invented unemployment. So Josh Kelley: Right, exactly. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: artists in general. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: but but yeah, it's it's just a tool. So yeah, whatever. But but I know what you're saying. Like a lot of it because if there's nothing that makes it special or differentiated, it does come across. It is just noise. You know, it's a lot of it. Josh Kelley: I don't want anything I write or anything I say or anything I do to just be adding to the noise it's out. I want Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Right. Josh Kelley: what I say to be meaningful. So I I write my response Facebook and then I go back and re- I I take a long time before I hit that send button. I Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: rewrite it, I rewrite it, I rewrite it, and pretty soon it's it my response tend to be a little longer because I'm thinking through my what I want to say with being mindful that, you know, I don't want to throw someone else off their journey and their path and at the same time, you know, maybe sometimes guide them to the proper resources or direct a good direction. I can't say proper resources because they may be getting something completely different out of it. One one of the books I've reading right now is this. It's called Symbols. Yeah, it's yeah, by by Roberts. Yes Roberts, Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: yeah, yeah. Is that Roberts? Yeah, yeah. Josh Kelley: yeah. So I really like it, you know, because I'm a huge fan of symbols. He goes through lots of you know It's the the that's what I love about symbols. That's kind of a apron. that's what I love about symbols is symbols symbols change, you know, symbols change every time you look at every time you look at a different point in life, it means something different to you. It means something deeper. So and so I don't want to ever tell somebody, Hey, you're wrong. How dare I? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Right. Because as you said earlier, there's somebody's somebody's path, somebody's journey, Josh Kelley: Yes. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: somebody's feelings, right? Like you can't you're literally you just you you can't assign and you know, tell somebody they shouldn't be feeling something. Like it's just yeah. Josh Kelley: Even you, I think. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Ha ha ha. Josh Kelley: Let's let's switch gears here. Let's talk about the present condition of Freemasonry because you and I talked about this before. And Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm. Josh Kelley: I think this is kind of an important discussion. So I think what do you what do you think is the present condition? I'm just gonna let you kinda talk about what do you think is the present condition of Freemasonry? Where where are we now? You're a statistician. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, yeah. I I data scientist all day. well at least eight to four. Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: so I really do feel like the best of the best tend to find our organization. And as somebody who does data work and I I look at I use something called not socioeconomics, although that does come into play sometimes. I I use something else called socionomics, right? So this is macro behaviors of groups of people and the decisions they make and trending analysis and you know essentially if let's just say if you were a big fan of say Isaac Asimov's foundation series, Harry right Harry Seldon Josh Kelley: Who's not? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: has something What what's the math he uses? It's like a predictive mathematical model that tells the future. Psych yeah, psycho psychohistory. So he has Josh Kelley: Pike is a psycho psychohistory, there you go. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: this mathematics called psychohistory. So socionomics is like similar in concept. And so when I look at masonry and I look at the the large this idea, right, we have the shrinking membership. there have been a number of brothers who have argued that no, it's more like we're right sizing or returning to where we were post anomaly. And the anomaly isn't per se like there's nothing wrong with it. you know, the huge membership boom in the fifties and forties or whatever you want to say. but if you i if you look at that trend of joining our organization Our organization was the capstone of social time. Like we are a social organization. And at this time in America's history, we were on this upswing of social time and social clubs and dinner clubs. When I looked through my grandparents' albums, they're picture albums. I find these like pictures of them at a dinner club and they have their table and you see the band in the background and it says, you know, Geneva and George, you know, nineteen fifty six or whatever, and there's one from every stupid week. Right? And and this was Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: it. They were social and there was not another organization that was as social as we were. And so you have that compiled with the number and there's The tons of dudes coming home looking for the same connection. And and a connection in a way that they probably weren't a hundred percent honest with their own with their s with themselves about why they were there. feelings and things like that were not something that were openly discussed, and you know, the men of yesteryear. And so instead, it's kind of like we all gathered together there and is as unsaid. It's like, yeah, we're all dudes and we're here, yeah. And then underneath it's like, yeah, but we're I really love you guys too though. But like, yeah, we're just dudes, we're together, you know. So Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: we had this you know, this nexus where those two trends just they happened. And because of that, Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: we we built an empire. on this. And we we we built a hill that is you know, we built the castle on the hill and now we can't pay for it anymore because we don't have those same numbers and people are like, we need more members. It's like, no. Let's just make steps to sort of fiscally right size. a and so you look at if you want to know what right size is, look at the numbers before all that happened. And the sustained numbers. You know, it was never like a million guys, never a million members, and that's okay. And so I think, yeah, the challenge that's facing lodges today, is sort of a leftover of that, and it's systemic. But I think that the they stem from a single root cause, which is sacrificing standards to save numbers. I think we have shallow engagement. declining participation. we suffer from you know, death of expectations because lodges are terrified that, you know, demanding real memorization or effort is gonna scare candidates away. we settle for you know, the participation trophy of Masonry, taking mediocre men and asking them to do bare minimum stuff and rewarding them with titles that essentially mean nothing. You know What is this about? Why do we do that? It seems like it's the the it's it's the most surface level baloney. You know? Like Josh Kelley: Yeah, Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I don't want to talk about the weather. I don't Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: want to talk about the logistics of somebody's fish fry. Like I don't care. I mean, it's great that we're doing those Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: things to raise some money, but I also don't want to raise money for the lodge. I want to raise money for the lodge to give away. Right? I don't want to I don't want to tax our communities Josh Kelley: Yeah, exactly. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: for our own existence. Right? Like it's just they wanna there's this this push for membership and dollars to maintain something. And it's like I'd rather sell the stupid building and meet in a union hall once a month and where all of our regalia fits in a closet that we rent than have to worry about any of that stuff. Right? It's just like it's just like, you know, we say in church, right? where wherever two or more are gathered, like the lodge is the men and the people are you know, the people, if you're co masons or whatever, but like the lodge is the people that come together and it's what we do that. And I think Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: There's just this erroneous sort of like nobody wants to be the grandmaster or the master or whatever who loses members. But what about the what about the gold? Like what if you were the what if you were the grandmaster who said we have eighty lodges in our state, and every single one of them has seventy-five percent of the members that show up. Josh Kelley: Yeah. That would be better. Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: That would be crazy, dude. Like Yeah, it's it's the question, right? Engaged Masons, a few engaged Masons, or a ton of guys and one or two, right? Those one or two guys end up supporting the rest of everybody anyway, sometimes. You know? Yeah, guys like I'm sure guys like Oscar Allen, for instance. Dudes in New York, right? That guy he gives so much of himself to Masonry. And I'm not gonna you know, like you got guys that just bleed masonry and they're happy to do the work, but it would be nice if we had, you know, some some people who can stand up and and take on some of that work too. Josh Kelley: You know, we have I I go to one of the largest, I'm pretty sure it's the largest, lodges as far as membership goes in this state of Missouri. It's Gate of the Temple Lodge four hundred and twenty-two. We were thrilled that on our officer election we had last week. we were thrilled. We had a we had well over forty people in attendance for the officer election. That's like Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Dang that's so cool. Josh Kelley: No, yeah, it was like it was like, man, there's ever people everywhere. And you know, it was it was just kind of and and I like the fact that there were that many people there. It was the for long longest attendance, largest attempts we've had in a while, but at the same time, we're a lodge of over 500, you know, Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Sure. Josh Kelley: members. So and and the participation sometimes isn't there, but a lot of these guys are off doing things that are important to them. You know, some guys are up a lot of the guys are at the shrine in Springfield, Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: the Shrine Mosque the that's the big draw because we have this huge Abu ben Adham shrine for the one it was it when it was built it was largest stage second or second largest stage in the country Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Wow. Josh Kelley: Metropolitan Opera was the Met only one bigger than their than than that stage they have the Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Dang, that's crazy. Josh Kelley: Course now it's we just dwarfed of course stadiums and stuff like that. But but at the time that was that huge and still Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: it's a beautiful historic building. It's you know, in that old Arabic style. But Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: it you know, when you have when Think people will just look at that membership number. then they look at the people showing up and being engaged. And I think it kind of makes them it it it disheartens them. Instead of being instead of understanding that, you know, pretty sure masonry's always been like and we are Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: And it yeah Yeah, you're this is exactly the point. is I think when you get to a point in Masonry when you realize this stuff, it's it's like as you said earlier, one guys are out there writing their own chapters in their lives. Right? Masonry cannot be every dude's be all end all. And that's okay, right? And they're likely out there doing amazing things. I had a a 50-year member who came in to get a certificate. I have been sending this guy his dues card for seven or eight years. Never seen him before in my life, Josh. He came to Lodge. I was like, wow. A dude showed up because I sent him the fifty year member card. That's cool. I know it it invites them to come down and talk about the lodge a little bit when they joined. And and I was kinda mad. I had a little bit of angst in my in my heart because I was like, you just come down when you gonna get something? Cool story, bro. Like these these guys are down here washing dishes every Monday night. Raising money for this, that, and it Okay. So set aside the angst for a minute. This guy stands up when we recognize him. And so this is how often he's been to lodge. Number one, the guys around him had to be like, Hey, take your hat off. He was wearing his cowboy hat. And he's like, sorry. And when it came time to talk, he stood up and he goes, I don't think I've been to Lodge since maybe like two meetings after my Master Mason degree. But he's always paid his dues. And what he said was, I took what you guys told me in those degrees, and I tried to live my life that way ever since. And like he kind of gave this little speech, and it sounded like, you know, he's like this 75-year-old guy. And I you know, kind of reminded me a little bit of the the the end of Saving Private Ryan. The guy like breaks down, he's at his grave and he's like, I have tried to live my life, you know, as the most meaningful as I can because, you know, of your sacrifice or whatever, whatever. And and that's kinda way the way this guy came off. And I and I thought to myself Man, it was really crappy of me to think and have this angst in my in my chest over this because I'm like, where have you been, dude? Right? He's been out Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: there doing it and this is great. And so it's just we it's that understanding, you know. Josh Kelley: A Mason I was out there, I was fixing a garage door, and his wife, I was talking to his wife, he was he was like he's in hospice. He was inside a lodge and he was in hospice. And we started talking and his wife finally said, you know, is a Masonic logo on your arm? I said, Yeah, I'm a Freemason. She said my husband is too. He's always talked about loves being a Freemason. Like, really? And then she started telling me some of the stories of him in the past. You know, he does he got a lot busy with life, but he used to fly kids for the Shriners from Springfield to St. Louis and to the different Shriner Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Wow. Josh Kelley: hospitals back and forth using using his boss's jet to fly and forth, fly kids back and forth. This guy he he's done so much in masonry, but he hadn't been in lodge for years or so. But I s I asked the lady, I said, Well, can I can I go talk to him? He's he's he's dying briefly, but he's he not really quite there. You know, he was he was he was he's d he was Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Sure. Josh Kelley: not feel he was he was dying. I went in there and I and went up to him, I said, hi brother, and I gave him the Mason's grip. As soon as he felt that grip, tears started flowing Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Dang. Josh Kelley: he's he I sat down, he talked to Guy who and he's a member of my lodge that I'd never heard of, but he's done these extraordinary things in his in his career. And he's just been sitting for, you know, busy, just busy with life. And kind of he said one thing, he said, I always all my family wanted to know I'm a mason and I always paid my dues, you know, always, you know, until I got my 50 year pin So this guy He was a last recipient of the solid gold golden crutch. After that, they started making them gold plated. So Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: wow. Josh Kelley: he's just a pretty super cool guy. But one thing he did, he he he he got up. He's super he guys he got up to the back of his to back to his room and came back out and he brought me actually I keep it in my office here. Bill Johnmeyer he brought me this. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Look at that. Josh Kelley: And he has it, it has the the shrine stuff on it, Abu bin Adam, his name, Bill John Meyer, and it's got two balls in it, because if you know, Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: you know, right? And he handed it to me. He said, I've been waiting to see a brother. He said, Here's what I want you to do: I want you to take this and I want you to keep this. And when you die, I want you to donate it to Gate of the Temple Lodge. if and as a temple logo, he handled made this and he hand carved everything on this all the decorations stuff. It's just he put the two balls in there. So it's Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: just and it it was just it's such a great like you said his journey he's a member of the lodge does that mean he's not a good Mason because he hasn't been there and no Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Exactly. Josh Kelley: guy remembers the guy knows that he just hasn't been able to be there and that really was kind of the catalyst to The extraordinary lodge is is remembering these guys and knowing those things. Yeah, anyways, that's not there, but common. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: No, that's that's it that's exactly that's exactly the kind of That to me is a story that hits and is as close maybe as you can get to understanding what it truly is to be a Mason. we Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: we rely on symbols oftentimes because the symbol, you know, every say, you know, they'll say a picture's a thousand words, right? It's Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: it's more than a thousand words. A symbol conveys entire ideas and philosophies. you know, we think about we can communicate with words. Words are inherently limiting. They're a cage. Y Josh Kelley: Right. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: a and so the best thing that we have to share whatever this is that we feel, this ineffable sort of feeling, is a symbol or an experience. And the symbol is only kind of like helps us remember the experience. So it's it's Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: the symbol of itself is not even the thing, right? It's it's there's a thing that's elusive you know, people will say all the time, I I read all the degrees in masonry, or I watched a YouTube, or I saw it on Sky TV. And it's like, yeah, whatever. Doesn't mean anything. Josh Kelley: Yep, exactly. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Like, when you go through that, give me a call. We'll talk, you know? Josh Kelley: Something mystical about it. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, absolutely. Josh Kelley: That initiation process through the degrees and your brothers around you and really. we can go crazy esoteric down the rabbit hole which I plan on doing with David Guarente in my next interview. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: sweet. Josh Kelley: You know there is something mystical. There is a mystical bond between us there's between brothers. When I meet a brother it doesn't matter where I'm at immediate recognition understanding and I know who he I know in a way I know who he is. he stands for what he believes. He knows Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: what I believe for. And we will and it's it is a mystical tie. It really is. So blessed be tie that binds. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, absolutely. Josh Kelley: I don't think Freemasonry is in bad place. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Me neither. Josh Kelley: Because I see these young guys in our lodge now. and I've been mentoring guys and and seeing them come to we we have this thing called round table. And I don't know it was it was around before I was, it's become bigger than our lodge, so it's more of a district event, guys from the district are coming to it. And I see these young guys come in and they're hungry for knowledge. What I've also found is the guys that are hungry for knowledge are the guys who stick around and jump in and start doing things. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I I'm totally with you. I I said earlier that I think education is what masonry is, you know, the large umbrella. your book, The Extraordinary Lodge. I think part of this in terms of education ties back to the idea of this sort of extraordinary. I believe in empathy and understanding and all of these things. And I believe that we should have an uncompromising culture in that extraordinary lodges must prioritize the education philosophy and the self-betterment over administrative trivia. And what I will say is that, you know, stated business meetings, You know, maybe do quarterly if you don't ha i I just feel like the business of a lodge is not necessarily the thing that needs to be talked or or worked on every month. What needs you can certainly discuss ritual. I came a long way in masonry and I would go, you know, the rituals, whatever, you know, everything really everything is in Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: the ritual. But you Josh Kelley: Yes. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: you really gotta pull at it, you gotta look, you gotta use some mental power to to take it apart. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: And I think that's where sometimes we we stray away. There's this idea that we can't You know, guys are scared of getting deep or guys are scared of ten dollar words or whatever. No, they're not. Okay? Like people men, people are coming into masonry, like you said, thirsty. They want they want an experience and if we give it to them, it's not like you have to hold this forever. If you build this experience, they're gonna continue it. Josh Kelley: They they will. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Because because because to them, this is the new this is their norm. Maybe Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: for us it was difficult and a step up. Right? maybe we had to sort of rework the way things have always been. Maybe, hey, we don't maybe we move to a consent agenda, you know. everything that just can be put on the back burner and like on autopilot. Yeah, do that stuff. Who cares? Unless there's a hole in the roof, I don't need to hear about anything. You know what I mean? instead, hey, I don't know, reach across the lodge and and maybe the the worshipful master is now the interlocutor and he says, hey, Robert, for the next stated meeting, I'd like you to give a mini biography on Brother Josh Kelley. So in between the next two meetings, get together, have some coffee, interview the guy, and then come in to lodge and brag about him. You know? That would be so fun. We have a we have a similar program in Illinois. It's just called Brother to Brother or something like that. but it's kind of an interesting way to to look at things, you know, by Like what can you add to the meeting that is both interesting and fun and brotherly and takes away the boring stuff, you know, and arguably you could be like, Well, you know, you interviewing Josh and then telling us how cool he is at the next meeting isn't necessarily the education we're looking for. Actually, you're gonna get a lot out of that because now you're gonna know about Josh. You're gonna know about what he does, how he thinks about stuff, what masonry means to him, and you're gonna get all these perspectives and those are gonna be little seeds on your brain, and they're gonna grow. They're gonna grow over weeks and years, and then more and more that's gonna happen. somebody's gonna interview you and you're gonna remember like, why do I think that? maybe that's a seed that Josh Kelley planted ten years ago when I heard somebody you know, it's just knowing people's perspectives and growing with with these people and Like it's all there. I just think that we we gotta focus on those things because if we teach the ritual, cool, let's get it. They can learn it, they can learn their steps, they can learn the words, okay. But let's focus on understanding that stuff. And do you know what happens when you learn the philosophy and you begin, you know, like, I I know what this is, I've been exposed to it and now I l I learned it. You start living it. So if if organizations want to build the charities, to do a fish fry, to do a golf outing, you know, you don't get guys to be excited about doing those things because it's just like, cool, it's masonry and it's golf. No. What's happened is you taught them a philosophy and now they're thinking that way and they're going, Hey, this is an excuse to raise some money. And a byproduct is I get to hang out with my brothers and play golf. You know, like if you the the charitable is the byproduct of the philosophy. You you know, the the administrative is the best administrators. come from a byproduct of the philosophy. Right? It it's just we've got a great system and we we should really effectively try to teach it. Josh Kelley: Yeah. I got it. I agree with you a hundred percent. One thing one thing's very interesting, we did that survey. I sent it to you that what Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: we were what I was gonna send out. The survey and we're midway into it. We've gotten 24 responses so far, which is which is good. You know, it's great actually. Almost some Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: of them don't go to Lodge at all. A couple things that have been big to me. Number one is guys really value education and learning and mentorship. The second thing I found is charity is huge. They don't think we Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Mm-hmm. Josh Kelley: one guy even said, if our lodge was gone tomorrow, would anybody in our neighborhood even notice? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. That's powerful. That's a Josh Kelley: pretty Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: that's a powerful question. Josh Kelley: question I ask in extraordinary lodge and he hasn't read the book so as far as I know I don't even know who it is it was anonymous Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: so but it's and that's a it is a good question. Would anybody even notice if if our lodge was gone tomorrow? Are we are we even what are we doing our community and yeah but it's been it's been a very learning experience, especially the guys who don't go to lodge anymore and haven't been there. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Yeah I feel like the those guys who don't go to lodge offer Really the some of the most valuable information. It's kind of like when, you know, you took debate in high school or maybe you took it in college or something, you get you know, y your your professor or your teacher is like, Hey, I'd lo I'd love it if you could debate this topic and and you feel strongly about it and you're and you go, this'll be great and they say, No, I want you to argue against it though. And you go, that's different. Now I have to try to understand this in a completely different way and argue against a thing I love. And so this is just all the bias, right? These guys don't have I go to lodge every week bias. So their opinions are very, you know, worthwhile to to understand. And it's awesome that they would ever you know like it's a gift that they would even respond, to be honest. Like it's it's profound. Josh Kelley: I want to kind of close up here a little bit, but what Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, sure. Josh Kelley: in cloning, I kinda want you to ask you a couple questions here. What gives you the most hope right now? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: yeah. I think we have a real ability, a real chance, especially right now, in masonry. right now in our country, in the world, I should say, not just our country, but I think our country is kind of the catalyst of things. what's happening in the world is really scary, it's really unfortunate. Th this is me being very like I'm trying to be as vanilla as I can. But I feel like the thing that I'm concerned about most is sort of systemic cowardice. I don't I want us I want masonry to stand up for something again. And what I where I have hope though is that I think the men and people who join our organization are the people who are very they're the right kind of people that are coming in, number one. I I find that the people who are coming in are intellectual, they're informed, they have opinions that align to me. And like I don't I don't won't mince words like I don't think things like I th I'll quote my own son. The fact that we have debates about h human rights is ridiculous. It shouldn't even be a thing. Like this is this is stupid. But Josh Kelley: Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: the fact is, you know, it's like we we need We need the thinkers and things to be to get involved in Masonry. I would love to and and I think one of my greatest hopes in in masonry today is that our future Is Active masonry being so young. And I say young because overall, like say in Illinois, for instance, Illinois's a pretty good sample size. we are a very politically kind of even state, you know, very typical. conservative toward the south and the farmlands and very cosmopolitan and democratic up there, right? And so we have a pretty good mixing of of beliefs and a you know, ideas of progressive, you know, moralities and things. But The average age in Illinois for a sitting worshipful master, and this is just my this is just my thought. Like the sitting worshipful master I consider as active masonry. Like that's just my okay, that's like a baseline, I'm gonna say that. The active masons in Illinois, the sitting worshipful masters, the vast majority of them are like forty-five, forty-four. And so the fact that active masonry is so young Worshipful masters average forty-four point six years old. And I feel like these younger leaders are so highly adaptable. They're open to change. They're hungry for genuine substantive education. and we see these lodges that are popping up, university lodges, educational lodges, lodges that Not my thing, not my thing at all, but lodges that pop up that are like Star Wars Lodge or whatever. Like that's I listen. Josh Kelley: Back lodge just opened up, yeah. Affinity lodges. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Affinity lodges, yeah. If if those guys are getting and they're doing this thing and they want to do it this way, to me, this is this is active masonry. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I don't think you're diminishing the craft. I don't think you're giving anybody a bad reputation. I think this is awesome. I think that these young, hungry Masons are gonna make real changes. Make real changes, not only in Lodge, but you know, they they have these these new ideas and things, you know, in and we're just sitting back here, you know. I'm 45 this year, I think. and so like I'm right in that active middle age, you know, Masonry in Illinois, but also yeah, that's right. Josh Kelley: Gen X, baby. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: And so it's I can also just sit back and I can appreciate what these younger Masons are doing. they're coming in and they have expectations that That they're gonna work toward that they wanna see. And you know what? They don't care that Joe Bob, who's been here for forty years, doesn't like it that way. Doesn't like that they do dinner before the meeting, or doesn't like that they're gonna hold a festive board after every degree. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: They don't care. They're gonna do it. And you know what happens? Everybody seems to really enjoy it. Wow, it's been so long since we did this stuff. Where'd you come up with this idea? You know, it's like, y yeah You guys, yeah. Mhm. Josh Kelley: When you were young. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, so my hope is really that these young guys are coming in the lodge and and and they're gonna make the changes. And and I like the changes regardless of what it is, you know, th they're respectful of the tradition but not afraid to be progressive in the way their lodges work and operate and to focus on the things that that they tend to feel matter, which is exactly what, you know, we've been talking about a lot of the time is this experience and cultivating an experience. Josh Kelley: Yeah. Yep. It's about an experience. And so what do you what what would you like to leave behind? Look at you twenty, thirty years down the line. What do you want them to remember about? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Hm. aside from a thousand episodes of the show that no. No, I think Josh Kelley: Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: what I would love to leave behind is just this idea that Masonry is this lantern on the mountain, you know, being held by the hermit. It's it's this it's this like shining light that says, Hey, climb for something higher and when you get here, you take the lantern and you climb up a little more. And let's just keep that going. humanity is we can't ever be stagnant in in the progress of humanity and what that means for not just humanity but like the flora, the fauna, the earth, all of the things. We are just one thing on on on this planet. And and we it's not that we have to do all this good stuff, right? We get to do all this good stuff. And I feel like just having this idea like if I can leave anything behind it's just I I hope people see what what what guys like you and myself and you know count you know I just I can't say countless but you know dozens of other Masons who are putting together and putting philosophies that advocate for you know real experiences and advocate for the normality of of people not having to put up shields and barriers and masonry like to truly put our money where our mouth is, right? Or or put our mouth where the money is, wh whatever that's saying is. you know, you know, Josh Kelley: Yeah, yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: we n we should you know, just just the the acclamation that we should do what we say we're gonna do. Make take Josh Kelley: Mm-hmm. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: good men and make better. And it's not we just don't do that with, you know, paying bills, like we always say, you know. Josh Kelley: Gotta pay the bills. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I guess. Josh Kelley: Consent agenda. Check it out. Patrick Carr's book, The Working Tools. All right. So Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: yeah. Yeah. Josh Kelley: yeah, it's a great, great, great idea. And he and it's it's it does wonders. all right. So RJ, I want you to share what what are some current and upcoming projects you got going on? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Current and upcoming projects. Well, we just finished we did something for a fundraiser for the WCY Podcast, which was called the s the Secretary's Equipage. it was a curated box of secretarial goods that I kind of handpicked or made. we did a limited run of like twenty boxes and and that was a great project. I wanna thank everybody for who got on those. We did that, and and that is one of the cool things with that is we're putting together a a five special episode sort of audio archive of best practices for secretaries. and this is a very structured kind of look at you know how to handle different situations and things so that's a project we're working on. I'm really excited to go to Camp Masonry up in Earhart Minnesota. that's a a really cool project that I think they've been working on. I'm just stoked to be able to go. I'll be doing a talk up there. Yeah, yeah. Josh Kelley: They have a website we can people can check it out. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: it's just I think it's Masonic Camp. dot com. that's a really cool venue they're doing I love camping and so these guys are are you know doing that plus masonry so what's not to love? and then I think That might be in September, end of September, I get to have the honor of going up to Maine, their Masonic College in Maine. and I'll be doing sort of a an entire day. I gotta do three lectures up there that that celebrate Masonry and Masonry's teachings for America, you know, a as we approach our 250th anniversary. So be doing a a few different lectures up there. I'm pretty excited about those. So yeah, thanks. Josh Kelley: Where can where can where can l where can listeners find Wince Came You Podcast if they don't know already? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: yeah, WCY Podcast dot com. probably the easiest thing to do if you just like to get the episodes when they come out. we got a substack newsletter you can sign up for. It's totally free. gives you a little synopsis of the episodes, little quote, a little audiogram will come to your email. and yeah, it's we try to publish most of the time we're weekly. sometimes I have a weekend trip or something and then I gotta lay it over a week, but try to make up for it. So Josh Kelley: All right. Well let's Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah, thanks. Josh Kelley: otherwise you'll have truckers emailing you all day. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: Yeah. Josh Kelley: Any final any final message you want to leave with your brothers? Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I I just wanna say, Josh Kelley, that you are yet another per you're another hermit on the side of the mountain holding a lamp and I'm just excited. Josh Kelley: love that hermit card. Yeah. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I it's my card, man. I love it. It just it it embodies the idea of like it's kinda like that Isaac Newton quote where he said, if I have seen further, it's from standing on the backs of giants or something along those lines. Josh Kelley: Yep. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: it allows us to to to see what other people are doing, to get there, get taught and keep going. I think the work you're doing is awesome. and I just I would encourage people to yeah, sure. Listen to Whence Came you and stuff, that's great. But there are so many great perspectives from great Masons out there. And yeah, I I would just say go out there, grab a cool new book or something. Heck, maybe you should get the Extraordinary Lodge. It's a pretty good pretty great book. I heard somebody cool did the Foreword Josh Kelley: That's what I heard too. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: yeah, yeah, yeah. there honestly, a really great manuscript. Josh Kelley: Carrying forward. Thank you. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: I thought that that that book is is a blueprint. whether you're looking to change the culture in your lodge, which is so hard, or maybe you're gonna start a new lodge. What whatever you gonna do. I think there's great ideas in there. It it takes what you know, Dwight L. Smith wrote this this paper a long time ago, Whither Are We Traveling? and then the Knights of the North did their book called A Laudable Pursuit, which it was a response to Dwight L. Smith's work, kind of saying, Dwight L. Smith said, Hey, this is the problems that we're having and this is what's gonna happen if we don't solve them. Laudable Pursuit said, Hey, Dwight L. Smith was right. Here's how we can start to turn this craft around. I think The Extraordinary Lodge takes is the next in that series. it Laudable Pursuits like I don't know two centimeters thick. it's not a it's not a thick book. but it's a response to A paper. Chris Hodap was a part of it. Great stuff. Talks about how to get your lodge back on track. Some new cool things to do. And I think the extraordinary lodge takes it to the next level. So go read that. That's what I say. Josh Kelley: Thanks for the plug. Appreciate that. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: come on, man. It's a great book. Don't sell yourself short. It's awesome. Josh Kelley: Yeah, well I appreciate it. Yeah. Thank you so much. And listen, thank you so much for sharing your experience, your perspective, your love for the craft. And coming next for the for the Masonic Journey Podcast, coming up hopefully next the week after you watch this video, we'll have Down the Rabbit Hole with David and Josh, with David Guarente and I talking esoteric stuff. First lesson is what Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: That's gonna be sweet. Josh Kelley: is esotericism and what is what is esoteric Freemasonry. So it's going be a lot of fun. David has forgotten more about Masonry than all I've already. He's an absolute genius. And since you're going to Maine, they know I'm up there in the north. So I think the heart of our conversation here is that Freemasonry just can't simply be something we attend. It really does have to be something that we practice. Lodges can become extraordinary and they become extraordinary when they're intentionally built, when they when they intentionally build extraordinary men. And those men carry the lessons of the craft into their homes or communities and every part of their lives. So to everyone listening, I hope this conversation has given you something to consider, but more importantly, something to apply to your life. Until next time, keep traveling the path of light. live the craft and give the craft. Thanks so much. Thanks so much, man. I've enjoyed talking to you. Robert H. Johnson, FILOR: yeah. Thank you, man. That's a great opportunity. I really do appreciate it, Josh. You're the man.