Latest / Council of Kings / Martijn Schirp on Buddhism, Death, & Service to Earth

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Martijn Schirp on Buddhism, Death, & Service to Earth · Council of Kings

• 0:02
  all right hello everyone and welcome to the show i'm happy to
• 0:06
  be here today with my
• 0:08
  longtime friend martine sherp martine is a longtime buddhist
• 0:13
  practitioner and the
• 0:14
  founder of upiosis where he curates a path between worlds a
• 0:19
  year-long contemplative
• 0:20
  training integrating buddhist practice buddhist practice
• 0:24
  contemplative science
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: ecological ethics and optional sacramental psychedelic work
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: And Martijn was also...
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: one of the co-founders of High Existence,
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_01: where he and I co-created for a while back in the day,
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  SPEAKER_01: and we co-founded Apotheosis Retreat through High Existence.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Martijn was the original visionary of Apotheosis.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: So Martijn, welcome to the show.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Jordan.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: I really,
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  really appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today and
• 1:07
  about topics that I
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: really care about.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for creating the space and holding the container.
• 1:14
  And I'm looking forward to dive deep in,
• 1:17
  I think,
• 1:18
  things that we both really care about.
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  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: Me too.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Me too, my friend.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: So perhaps a good place to start is just a bit about your story,
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: your background and where that's led you in recent times.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: You've had a lot of interesting chapters of your life.
• 1:34
  And I know recently we were just talking before the show about
• 1:38
  some health
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  SPEAKER_01: challenges that you navigated that were very initiatory for you.
• 1:42
  So curious if you could give us a lay of the land of your story
• 1:46
  and that recent chapter.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
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  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I can do both.
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  SPEAKER_02: Zooming out,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think before or around my high existence,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_02: early days,
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  SPEAKER_02: I found psychedelics and Buddhism at the same time.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so those paths have been interwoven for me for 15 years now.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been pretty dedicated on the meditative path.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: And I've also feel like I've been
• 2:17
  going deep,
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  not just personally,
• 2:19
  but also professionally into the psychedelic field.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like this is the path for me.
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  This is the domain that I will stay in for the rest of my life
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  because these
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  SPEAKER_02: practices have given me so much.
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  SPEAKER_02: The Dharma, but also the wisdom of the plants and fungi.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, we were just chatting about
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: recent health struggles I went through and it was a very difficult time.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: I got really sick.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: I'm currently,
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you can tell,
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  SPEAKER_02: but I'm currently in the jungle in Guatemala and pretty rural,
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: pretty far away from
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  what we considered,
• 3:05
  what we consider,
• 3:07
  most of us consider proper Western healthcare.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I got really, really ill and I wasn't quite sure what was causing it.
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  SPEAKER_02: I was having chronic fevers.
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  SPEAKER_02: I was very, very tired, very weak.
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  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, we're just chatting that...
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  that I was getting really concerned that if it would follow the
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  same trend and it
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  wouldn't be like a floor that I don't know how much longer I
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  would have in this
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  SPEAKER_02: world.
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  And the difficult and beautiful journey that initiation led to
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  the confrontation
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  SPEAKER_02: with the fact that
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  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to die.
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  SPEAKER_02: And we're all going to die.
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  SPEAKER_02: That's a given, right?
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  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's quite common,
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  SPEAKER_02: at least it was for me,
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  SPEAKER_02: that I was living under the delusion that,
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  SPEAKER_02: well,
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  SPEAKER_02: that's something that happens to other people.
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  SPEAKER_02: And my death is going to be far, far in the future.
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  And as one of my teachers,
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  my main teacher at the moment has pointed out,
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  he's been...
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  a hospice chaplain for for a big part of his career and so he
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  spent time with over
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  a thousand people who were in the process of like of near
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  imminent passing and
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  And he said it's almost universal for people to believe they
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  had more time.
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  SPEAKER_02: That always comes unexpected.
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  SPEAKER_02: And in my tradition,
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  SPEAKER_02: the Tibetan Buddhist tradition,
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  there are the set of teachings called the four thoughts that
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  turn the mind to
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  SPEAKER_02: Dharma.
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  SPEAKER_02: These are four contemplations that if you contemplate them deeply enough,
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  SPEAKER_02: they kind of sink into the bones and they open up a way of looking that
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  basically diminishes the value of things that don't really
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  matter and increases the
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  SPEAKER_02: value that actually things that really matter.
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  SPEAKER_02: And one of the core ones is impermanence and everything is impermanent.
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  SPEAKER_02: Everything will fall under the law,
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  SPEAKER_02: the second law of thermodynamics,
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  SPEAKER_02: like entropy will,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: break down your barriers at one point and your body,
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  SPEAKER_02: your body will fall apart.
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  SPEAKER_02: And, um,
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  we we haven't found any exceptions to that rule anywhere so
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  knowing that life is
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  impermanent that we don't know how much how long we have and
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  and in that moment
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  SPEAKER_02: that became super real for me um and
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  SPEAKER_02: It was a process of first having to deal with how can this happen to me?
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  SPEAKER_02: Why me?
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  SPEAKER_02: I've still so many plans.
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  SPEAKER_02: I still want to do so many things.
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  SPEAKER_02: I want to travel.
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  SPEAKER_02: I want to love my wife.
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  SPEAKER_02: I want to spend time with my family.
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  SPEAKER_02: I want to hang out with my friends.
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  SPEAKER_02: I want to...
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  build all these so many things I want to build like this is
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  this is not happening
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  to me and like being in the process of okay like I can barely
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  get out of bed today
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  like I need to spend all my time all my focus all my energy on
• 7:01
  trying to get better
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  SPEAKER_02: there was no room for any of the things that I normally
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  SPEAKER_02: do in daily life.
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  SPEAKER_02: Even things as basic as doing grocery run, I couldn't do it.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so the pressure that put on my wife to work,
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  SPEAKER_02: but also take care of us,
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  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
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  SPEAKER_02: shit,
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  SPEAKER_02: how are we going to do this if this is going to be permanent,
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: if I'm not getting better?
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  SPEAKER_02: So that was a big part of it.
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  SPEAKER_02: the anger, like, around being like feeling a victim, like, why me?
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  SPEAKER_02: That was the process that was very difficult.
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  SPEAKER_02: And yeah,
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  SPEAKER_02: like,
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  SPEAKER_02: the idea of not seeing your family again,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: not seeing your loved ones again,
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  SPEAKER_02: and that was painful.
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  SPEAKER_02: That was very, very tough to sit with.
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  SPEAKER_02: Because for me,
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  SPEAKER_02: having meditation practice for the last 15 years,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's so...
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  SPEAKER_02: You're so vulnerable,
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  SPEAKER_02: you're so open,
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  and you're so sensitive to all the little tendencies to want to
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  pretend it's not
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  SPEAKER_02: happening or distract oneself from...
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  SPEAKER_02: that, you know, it's not happening.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that's not inherently bad.
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  SPEAKER_02: Like,
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  SPEAKER_02: I think the drive to regulate your suffering is very,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's very human,
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  SPEAKER_02: it's very compassionate.
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  SPEAKER_02: But a lot of these drives, they don't really work.
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  SPEAKER_02: They might give temporary relief,
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  SPEAKER_02: but it doesn't really,
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  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't really change the fact that,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: life is impermanent.
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  SPEAKER_02: And
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  um we only have one life and when it ends it ends as in in this
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  form in this body
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  in this this this moment and so it really this is why it's such
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  an important
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  reflection and why often people who have gone through in their
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  death experience or
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  SPEAKER_02: like a big um big death scare like there's a
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  SPEAKER_02: In therapeutic literature, they call it a conversion moment.
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  It's almost the same as like a spiritual conversion or a
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  religious conversion,
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  SPEAKER_02: where it's like the sudden realization,
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  SPEAKER_02: like,
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  SPEAKER_02: oh,
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  SPEAKER_02: shit,
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  SPEAKER_02: the way I've been living has not been the way I want to live.
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  SPEAKER_02: The way I feel like is the way to honor this precious, limited moment.
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  SPEAKER_02: time that I have.
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  SPEAKER_02: And so very painful and very beautiful, very meaningful.
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  And we were just chatting about how I sometimes wonder if I
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  didn't have my practice
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  SPEAKER_02: and I didn't have the experiences that I had with on the psychedelics,
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  SPEAKER_02: for example,
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  SPEAKER_02: of
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  SPEAKER_02: of feeling like, okay, this is my death.
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  I would assume that I wouldn't have been able to see this
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  process as a teacher,
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  SPEAKER_02: as an opportunity to honor life more,
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  SPEAKER_02: to love deeper,
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  SPEAKER_02: to
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  become gentler and more caring and instead probably have
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  tightened around like more
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  SPEAKER_02: distraction,
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  SPEAKER_02: more anger,
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  SPEAKER_02: more victimhood,
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  SPEAKER_02: more because it's such a ready at hand way of relating to it.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's much more difficult, I find, but much more valuable and skillful
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  SPEAKER_02: to be able to see a deaf as a teacher,
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  to be able to see all those emotions as energies that reveal
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  something that's
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  SPEAKER_02: really important.
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  And the only way to really understand and begin to receive that
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  level of insight is
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  SPEAKER_02: to treat it with care and respect.
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  And you do that by sitting with it and really feeling it and
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  not hiding,
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  not running away.
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  SPEAKER_02: And it's easy to say,
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  but I found it pretty hard to do in the moments when I was
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  physically very unwell,
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  SPEAKER_02: in a lot of pain,
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  and just tired of feeling those emotions and tired of just
• 12:06
  wanting it to end in a
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  SPEAKER_02: way.
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  SPEAKER_02: It's like, man, this is no life.
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  SPEAKER_02: I can see why some people
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  feel at one point like I can't tolerate this anymore like I
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  wasn't there yet at all
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  but I when I was projecting like if I would feel like this for
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  another year another
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  two years I don't know then you know it really it would really
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  depend on my
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: capacity to
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  see it as a teacher,
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  see,
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  see it as a process that is still incredibly valuable and
• 12:45
  precious.
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  SPEAKER_02: Because in the moments when I couldn't do that,
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  SPEAKER_02: and I collapsed,
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: and I,
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  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: I was like,
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  SPEAKER_02: I just want to give up.
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  You know,
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  those are the moments like,
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  wow,
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  I can see,
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  I can see the decision.
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  Also,
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  I think born out of kindness and compassion,
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  but the decision that,
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  like,
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  okay,
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  SPEAKER_02: There's no purpose of continuing this.
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  So anyways,
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  I'm very glad to share that I was able to pause my life and
• 13:23
  focus on my health.
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  And I'm very grateful for all the researchers and the research
• 13:28
  that's been done
• 13:28
  over the last five years around this condition that I have to
• 13:32
  figure out some of
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: the
• 13:37
  some of the treatment models that could work and they seem to
• 13:41
  have worked and I'm
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: doing much better now.
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  SPEAKER_02: So.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's great to hear my friend.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for sharing vulnerably that whole story.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a really powerful story.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm curious.
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  If you were gonna look at what was the purpose of that
• 14:04
  initiation for you,
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  SPEAKER_01: you spoke to this somewhat,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: but just contemplating what burned away through that process,
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: what burned away or fell away through that process.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, great question.
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  I think the obvious one is this kind of naivete that that
• 14:27
  happens to other people.
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  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't happen to me.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I think there's a level of...
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  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I have the right words for it,
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: but it's the sense of life being incredibly fragile and vulnerable,
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  SPEAKER_02: and at the same time being incredibly beautiful and worth protecting.
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  SPEAKER_02: And I feel like I've always had that inclination
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  SPEAKER_02: But now I feel like, OK, my days are numbered.
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  SPEAKER_02: And that's very obvious.
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  And it doesn't mean that I have to squeeze everything out of it
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  in every second,
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  SPEAKER_02: because I don't think I can will that.
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  SPEAKER_02: But I think going through that,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_02: it dropped away all of the things that,
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: like we talked a little bit before,
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  SPEAKER_02: for recording.
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  SPEAKER_02: And in Buddhism,
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: there's a lot to be said about,
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
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  SPEAKER_02: the path is easy for those who are able to drop all preferences.
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  And I think there's a range of preferences that I just can't be
• 15:42
  bothered about anymore.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: And that's so much...
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say it's like a black and white thing,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: but it's a question of degree,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: but the level of letting go around,
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  SPEAKER_02: like having to feel good in my body,
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  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: like having to,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know,
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: get all the things that I wanted,
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_02: the times that I wanted,
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  SPEAKER_02: like that doesn't play that big of a role in comparison.
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  SPEAKER_02: And of course,
• 16:12
  that's a function of the practice that I've been doing and not
• 16:14
  just the process of
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, the mortality initiation.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: But it definitely sped things up.
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  SPEAKER_02: I think fundamentally, the fragility of life, that it's impermanent.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it made me think a lot about, like, what do I want to leave behind?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what am I contributing to the world?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: What am I putting in?
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  and is that something that is worth continuing and if it's not
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  you know i i kind of
• 17:00
  lost interest not because it's bad or anything i just you know
• 17:05
  it's not it's not a
• 17:05
  rule-based like inside ah now now i have to change my life and
• 17:11
  i'm not going to do
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  SPEAKER_02: that anymore it's just it just dropped away and
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  SPEAKER_02: And it mirrors kind of the path of Buddhism,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: in general,
• 17:22
  but I think a lot of wisdom paths and contemplative paths where
• 17:29
  the fundamental
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: ignorance around who we are kind of drops away.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: And what remains after all kind of
• 17:40
  um distortions it's it's this deeper understanding of who we
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  fundamentally are and
• 17:46
  it's not it's not the small self it's not the the stories we
• 17:52
  make about ourselves
• 17:53
  it's not even the particulars of our body it's we've come out
• 17:58
  of this mystery and
• 17:59
  we all we are this mystery and we always be this mystery and
• 18:04
  trusting that i think
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: um
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of the only way,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: like the thing that finally,
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_02: like that helped me get through the most dark times.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: And it's this confidence that I think will stick with me through my life,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_02: but also in the process of my eventual passing.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful, beautiful reflections, my friend.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for sharing with us.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, I feel like
• 18:38
  this is a good moment to launch a little deeper into Buddhism
• 18:43
  and contemplative
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: practice,
• 18:45
  something we're both really fascinated by and interested in and
• 18:49
  deeply engaged in.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And, um, yeah, just again, really honoring the share.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Those are really deep, deep share.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And on the, on the topic of impermanence, um,
• 19:04
  It reminded me of this quote that I believe is from the
• 19:09
  Dzogchen tradition where they say,
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: all phenomena self-liberate upon arising.
• 19:16
  And a teacher of mine would speak about that as a simultaneous
• 19:24
  appearing and
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: vanishing of all phenomena,
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: that this moment is completely fresh.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: You've never seen this moment before.
• 19:32
  If you look closely at the infinity of detail that's here and
• 19:36
  this pixelated
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: vibratory field of...
• 19:41
  embodied aliveness and just fulfilled aliveness it's it's new
• 19:45
  in every moment it's
• 19:46
  never you've never experienced it in that way every time i see
• 19:49
  my daughter i've
• 19:50
  never seen her that way before every time i see my wife i've
• 19:54
  never seen her that
• 19:55
  way before and so there's this freshness and we're usually numb
• 20:01
  to that because we
• 20:02
  kind of put everything in these conceptual boxes and we don't
• 20:05
  realize that we're
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: We're seeing the world through the lens of these concepts.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: But if we can kind of cut through that to the naked experience,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: it is total impermanence in a sense where this moment is born and dies
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: instantaneously in a sense.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like we continuously...
• 20:23
  are born and die or the phoenix resurrects from the ashes every
• 20:27
  moment or the the
• 20:28
  universal christ resurrects from the ashes in every moment kind
• 20:32
  of thing i'm
• 20:33
  curious yeah i'm curious what uh what that brings up for you
• 20:38
  yeah um to me it it it
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: it speaks to
• 20:48
  our fundamental awakened nature that's always already present
• 20:52
  and has been from the
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_02: very beginning.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_02: And in the great perfection or the great connection tradition,
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: it's seen that our fundamental nature is already always completely pure.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been from the very beginning.
• 21:14
  It's just our conceptual overlay that fabricates things between
• 21:21
  liking and disliking.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then we're always kind of caught, I don't want that.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: I want to get that.
• 21:26
  And we're always like running around trying to get that little
• 21:29
  bit of comfort.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_02: But it's impossible to get there.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you have comfort, you have the fear of losing the comfort.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: And so in an impermanent universe that's always already falling apart,
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: There is no kind of resting place.
• 21:48
  And so if you're able to drop that,
• 21:51
  if you're able to drop this constant need for evaluation,
• 21:57
  there's a recognition that can happen that all phenomena are
• 22:03
  already self-liberated.
• 22:06
  And this is why the doctrine is seen as the pinnacle of the
• 22:09
  Buddhist path,
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: because it basically takes the fruit of the path as the path.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: And you need,
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: it took me like 12 years to kind of to understand,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: I was always interested in it,
• 22:26
  but I never got it until I did all the preliminary practices
• 22:30
  and realized,
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 22:34
  my tendencies to fabricate and evaluate is something that's
• 22:40
  conditioned and it's
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: not inherently to reality.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: And if I drop that skillfully,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: I recognize the nature of mind, if you will.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can see phenomena as they really are, so to speak.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: And that means they're already liberated in their own nature.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to do anything.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: You don't even have to recognize your fundamental nature.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's already
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: that's the nature of phenomena, that they are liberated.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that kind of absolves you from,
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: it's actually incredibly,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: like the deeper I go in my practice,
• 23:25
  the more I'm amazed at the profundity of that teaching because
• 23:31
  there's a part of
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: like self-liberate even the antidote.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_02: So in practice,
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_02: there's sometimes a tendency,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_02: ah,
• 23:37
  now I need to see everything as self-liberated and then I get
• 23:40
  an insight or I need
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_02: to get somewhere
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_02: To understand it.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: And all of those things are kind of self liberated in their own place.
• 23:49
  Because all of those things still are dependent on some goal
• 23:53
  oriented model or some
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: self as agency,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_02: I pass it myself here and this outcome there.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: If I do that, then I will recognize that things are liberated.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_02: And that implies my current moment with my suffering,
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: with my smallness,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: my pettiness,
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: my difficult emotions,
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_02: my resistances.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_02: That's not it.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: But that means you're actually not recognizing it clearly.
• 24:23
  And then you start looking at all the things that normally you
• 24:27
  don't want to look
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: at,
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_02: and you let that...
• 24:29
  come up and go and self-liberate and realize,
• 24:32
  oh,
• 24:32
  wow,
• 24:34
  none of that left the stain.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: None of that is inherently there.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then you start looking, what is fundamentally there?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: And the more you look,
• 24:44
  the deeper you look with this level of stability that often is
• 24:49
  the preliminary,
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: this clarity and stability of mind,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: you won't find anything that's inherently existing.
• 24:57
  which is the fundamental truth in Buddhism,
• 24:59
  emptiness,
• 25:00
  everything is codependently arising.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_02: And without those dependencies, things don't arise.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then the question is, okay, what is left?
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the empty space of awareness,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_02: epistemic space,
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: which is not a nothingness,
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: but it's a luminosity.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: And it's luminosity that's at the same time responsive.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: It has no qualities, but it's knowing, it's responsive, and it's caring.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's all you've ever been, always, forever.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_02: And it's not a thing.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's not an object.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: But it's basically the ontological fundamental space of being.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think you can label it with many, many words.
• 25:46
  And many traditions have had those experiences or paths to
• 25:50
  recognize that experience.
• 25:54
  without necessarily falling into this perennialism that they're
• 25:57
  all the same.
• 25:59
  But I think there's the beauty to be able to recognize that in
• 26:09
  every moment,
• 26:09
  in every context.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: And the effect of that is something that is,
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: I find incredibly beautiful,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: which is all of these same things that we just talked about,
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_02: all of these
• 26:22
  particularities,
• 26:24
  these preferences,
• 26:25
  these little things that seem so real.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_02: But then sometimes weeks after,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: if you got in a fight with someone,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_02: or you got upset about something,
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: and then a week later,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: you're like,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: what was I thinking?
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like that didn't matter at all.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like that didn't, you know, it was completely concocted with my own mind.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like all of those things kind of drop away.
• 26:49
  And what remains is this sense of deep infinite peace and
• 26:58
  presence and tapping into
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: that and recognizing that's available to us in every moment,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: no matter
• 27:09
  It's like the layer of awareness before evaluation,
• 27:13
  before preference,
• 27:15
  that is incredibly wise.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's ancient.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's available to us in any moment,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: in sickness,
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_02: in the process of dying,
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: in grief,
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: in dreaming,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: in dreamless sleep.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: on the psychedelic doesn't matter.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_02: In darkness retreats, you know, in tantric rituals.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: And that's such a gift to be able to recognize that.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's such a gift.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: Because a lot of things that we,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: at least for me,
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_02: that I used to get really upset about or caused a lot of suffering that,
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: It's the realization that,
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: those are just my own projections,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: and I can stop participating in this contraction of awareness.
• 28:19
  And if I can remain open and spacious,
• 28:22
  then everything kind of unfolds by itself.
• 28:27
  It reminds me of this quote,
• 28:28
  like,
• 28:28
  nature does not hurry,
• 28:29
  but everything gets accomplished.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, that's true for us as well.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been true forever.
• 28:36
  And you can see that's true by paying close attention and
• 28:41
  embarking on the inquiry
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: and the contemplative path.
• 28:45
  Whether it's psychedelics or Buddhism or Christianity or Sufism
• 28:50
  or Vedanta or the
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Ayahuasca path or the Kurandera path,
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_02: they all have that potential to recognize
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think the inner divinity that's present in every single being.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: And... For me, that's the most beautiful way of looking that I found.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_02: And it's the most precious.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the most... I know, it has a lot of eros.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: It has a lot of vitality.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: It has like this,
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_02: I know you know,
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: like this natural source of poetics,
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: of recognition,
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: of celebration,
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: of joy,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: of generosity,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: and all the things that makes the world beautiful and humanity beautiful.
• 29:49
  And yeah,
• 29:53
  for me,
• 29:54
  the first time I tasted that,
• 29:55
  it's like,
• 29:55
  oh my God,
• 29:56
  what's that?
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I want more of that.
• 30:00
  And then you realize,
• 30:01
  like,
• 30:01
  the more you want it,
• 30:02
  the farther you get away.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: And then you realize, oh, wow, it's actually not just a peak experience.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_02: It's presence everywhere.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's not dependent on anything.
• 30:13
  But if you think it's dependent on anything,
• 30:15
  you're fabricating something that's not that.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: And so then you get into the realm of paradox and contradictions.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I found it to be
• 30:32
  very nurturing and very healing and also I think the ground for
• 30:36
  what true ethical
• 30:37
  action is and you can go deeper into that but I you know going
• 30:45
  through different
• 30:48
  cultures and seeing where the world is heading and the
• 30:52
  suffering that a lot of
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: people are going through and
• 30:57
  the what's called cognitive fusion with identity like people
• 31:00
  really think the
• 31:02
  narratives they have and the preferences they have and the
• 31:04
  judgments they make
• 31:05
  about other people is inherently that way people are inherently
• 31:10
  evil or inherently
• 31:13
  um you know and i i don't think there's any proof for that but
• 31:18
  if you believe
• 31:18
  that's the case it justifies a lot of violence and aggression
• 31:22
  and extractivism and
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_02: that type of thing and
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it's so painful,
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_02: if you realize you don't need anything,
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: you don't need anything external to validate you,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_02: you don't,
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_02: as long as you have the basics,
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: some food,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: some shelter,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: some belonging,
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: you're,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: you're,
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: you're pretty good.
• 31:51
  know you can pretty it's a pretty good life that way um and
• 31:56
  then you see people
• 31:57
  fabricating these really crazy lifestyles to be able to just
• 32:00
  feel a little bit of
• 32:01
  comfort and it's uh then then it becomes quite obvious to me at
• 32:07
  least that the
• 32:09
  diagnosis of fundamental delusion and projection and cognitive
• 32:13
  fusion and um
• 32:16
  reification that that's that's the root of a lot of suffering
• 32:21
  and confusion and and
• 32:24
  so for me the path of buddhism and the path of psychedelics
• 32:28
  have been the main
• 32:33
  sources of wisdom that allowed what i feel like is a level of
• 32:37
  sanity and a level of
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_02: contentment that i i don't know i would have
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: gotten otherwise.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I've been very like,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: I know,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: my background,
• 32:50
  but there was a period where I was very confused and very
• 32:53
  driven by first material
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: things.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then later,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: immaterial,
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_02: like things like status and power and insight,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be smart.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: And like,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: and all those things are,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: in a way,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_02: looking back,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_02: they were important stepping stones for me to realize,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_02: that's not that,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: exhausting kind of
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: the projection.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: But now looking back,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_02: it was like,
• 33:19
  it's kind of hilarious how much I've been turning around my
• 33:21
  wheels and not going
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_02: anywhere.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, long story, but...
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, no.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_01: Great reflections.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Loving the, loving it.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned the ontology piece, which I'm curious about.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: You mentioned the word ontology.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: I know that some practitioners,
• 33:40
  some of contemplative traditions or contemplative practices
• 33:48
  make the leap into kind
• 33:50
  of creating an ontology or creating a metaphysics out of the
• 33:54
  insights that come
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: through these types of practices.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes seeming to,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:01
  go as far as kind of taking the view and trying to concretize
• 34:06
  it into a philosophy
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: or say this is how things,
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: are in a fundamental sense,
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: whereas other practitioners...
• 34:17
  kind of advocate for or at least mention that you don't
• 34:21
  necessarily have to do that.
• 34:24
  You don't have to make the leap of this is how things are based
• 34:27
  on the practice.
• 34:28
  You can just engage in the practice and the observation of now
• 34:33
  and notice that
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Now is all there is.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: You can't find the past.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: You can't find the future.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: You're on this razor's edge of vanishingness, appearingness.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's vivid.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's bright.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: Everything's flavorful.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Your definitions cannot pin anything down and even just...
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: going into that type of inquiry reveals this,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: as you say,
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: lightness and freshness and vividness and,
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_01: and heart opening compassion.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you can savor those fruits in a way without,
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_01: without needing to kind of make the leap of,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_01: and therefore this is the ultimate nature of everything.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious where you land on, on that spectrum.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: What a beautiful question, thank you.
• 35:25
  There's so much nuance that I feel,
• 35:30
  but also it's found in different traditions.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's, like anything, there's value and there's danger.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the value is that it can function as a skillful means.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: It can function as,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: classically seen as a raft where for you to go from misunderstanding to
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: understanding,
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: you might need an in-between
• 36:05
  way of looking that if you practice something is revealed and
• 36:10
  then once you get on
• 36:10
  the other side you don't you know you're not carrying the wrath
• 36:13
  with you on your
• 36:15
  back and in the practice of Jogchen the view is incredibly
• 36:19
  important and at the
• 36:21
  same time it's it's it's meant to be left behind it's not
• 36:26
  something you wanna oh
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm gonna this happens quite often and it's very understandable like okay
• 36:33
  I'm going to really study Jogchen and I'm going to read all the
• 36:35
  books and then I'm
• 36:37
  going to conform into this identity of being a Jogchenpa and
• 36:43
  trying to fit in and
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: be really good.
• 36:45
  That's not going to help you whatsoever to realize the nature
• 36:49
  of your mind.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: At the same time, studying is important.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: to undo misunderstanding.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_02: But it's like this Ouroboros at a fundamental level,
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: it kind of eats its own tail,
• 37:02
  like all language constructs are an incredibly crude tool to
• 37:11
  actually capture
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: something like you can't capture anything.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_02: And so the delusion that's inherent and often in language of
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like, ah, now I got it.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Now I know because I labeled it correctly.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: That's ridiculous.
• 37:29
  Like,
• 37:30
  life is not lived in this competition of who can label
• 37:35
  phenomena the most accurately.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time, like,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: language is the fundamental co-fabrication condition of reality.
• 37:46
  Like it reveals things,
• 37:47
  it highlights things,
• 37:48
  and it diminishes other things.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so we live within language.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: We can't do without.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it's another illusion to think,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: ah,
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to be a perfect,
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_02: pure Jogchen practitioner and never going to speak a word again.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that would be delusional too.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's,
• 38:10
  It's recognizing the skillfulness and the value of language
• 38:18
  without being captured by it.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_02: And a big part of the practice of structure,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: which is,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_02: let's say the fundamental practice of Mahamudra and Jogchen,
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_02: which the literal translation is cutting to hardness,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: which over time allows the
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: the tendency for us to solidify things.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like we think reality is very solid.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_02: And unless we're dreaming, then it's very obvious things are not solid.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_02: But once we're awake, we're like, okay, this is real.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_02: This is really there, independent of my...
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: my own projections, it has itself nature.
• 38:59
  That is actually a way we've been conditioned to be functional
• 39:04
  in reality.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's not inherently,
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_02: and you can see that not just in Buddhism,
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_02: you can see that in developmental psychology,
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: for example,
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: where,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_02: Over time,
• 39:19
  children clearly learn how to have these fundamental categories
• 39:23
  around time,
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_02: causality,
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_02: object permanence that they didn't have as a baby.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_02: And then over time, they develop that.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that becomes like these hyper priors, these Kantian ways of looking.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: But we can dissolve that and melt that.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: and something else arises.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you can't really capture that with language.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: You can't really pin that and it's like, ah, I got it.
• 39:47
  But you can release into that and realize that that's already
• 39:55
  always been present.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the original purity.
• 39:58
  And that's the ontological basis of Buddha nature or what's
• 40:03
  called emptiness luminosity.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: from that view, which is kind of the view of no view,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: things always already self-liberate and there's nothing you have to do.
• 40:19
  And that's actually like a specific understanding why it's
• 40:24
  called self-liberation.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because like the way I approached it when I first heard that teaching,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: it was,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_02: ah,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_02: I got to self,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: my mind got to self-liberate.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: Awareness needs to self-liberate.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_02: But that's not the case.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_02: Like phenomena in itself are self-liberated.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_02: As in, you don't have to do anything.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the moment you can try how hard it is not to do anything,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure you've tried to practice that.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then you realize everything is already happening by itself.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a big, that threw me for a loop for a while.
• 41:07
  Because we are so invested in seeing thoughts arise
• 41:13
  spontaneously and they liberate
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: spontaneously.
• 41:15
  And with that often an identification arises also of like,
• 41:21
  that's me,
• 41:21
  I'm thinking.
• 41:23
  But if that arises automatically,
• 41:25
  spontaneously,
• 41:26
  then what is aware of that?
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 41:33
  And trying to capture that with language is just another
• 41:35
  fabrication,
• 41:36
  another arising.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: And it's like I'm writing on water.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't mean it's not skillful,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: but it's not fundamentally independently true,
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: absolutely true.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's a relative truth that speaks to the absolute.
• 42:01
  but it can never quite box it in and own it and capture it and
• 42:08
  all these things
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_02: that we feel like,
• 42:10
  all these tendencies that we feel like to prop ourselves up as
• 42:13
  someone who doesn't
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: have to suffer and who is not subject to permanence and death and decay.
• 42:21
  And I think that's a tendency that you can become very,
• 42:26
  very comfortable with over time
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Cause that's the tendency where we forget our own spaciousness,
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: our own ease,
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: and we get contracted and fixated.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: And, uh, and that's the practice.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_02: Can we, can we release all the fixations?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: And one of,
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_02: one of the fundamental one is like trying to get it,
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: trying to understand it fundamentally,
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: absolutely independent of any context.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_02: And that's, I think, relatively possible, but absolutely not.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: I would say for me,
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: at this point,
• 43:17
  the need to try to pin it down in a belief system or a
• 43:21
  philosophy or a metaphysics
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: or an ontology,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: drops away more and more.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I can just look at what I experience now,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: as well as just some of my most profound experiences.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I can say,
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: if I look at this now,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_01: this seems miraculous that this is here at all.
• 43:44
  And it seems like a miraculous shining forth of pure light,
• 43:49
  pure texture,
• 43:50
  pure energy from
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: from infinity from nowhere,
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_01: which is everywhere present,
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: everywhere and nowhere from infinity.
• 43:58
  And I've had experiences of just where I completely evaporated
• 44:03
  and dissolved into that.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it was just,
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: the only words completely disappear,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: but you come out and you feel like,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh,
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: that was God.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: That was infinity.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_01: That was pure light.
• 44:14
  That was the diamond heart of Buddha nature,
• 44:16
  whatever you want to call it.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's just like a dissolution into pure grace.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so that kind of left me with this deep sense of like,
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_01: that feels to me like the heart of reality.
• 44:27
  And this is,
• 44:28
  and it's ever present and it's always shining forth as this
• 44:31
  moment now,
• 44:33
  as it is.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 44:35
  we're just usually kind of veiled in a way from really feeling
• 44:39
  and experiencing
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: that because of all of our concretizations is kind of a word I like,
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: similar to what you're using,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: fabrication,
• 44:46
  like the way we've concretized and solidified all these ideas
• 44:50
  and definitions locks
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: us into a certain narrow view,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_01: a reducing valve in a way,
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: and we don't feel the infinity and...
• 45:01
  more you let yourself feel the infinity i mean yeah you know
• 45:05
  the mind is still kind
• 45:06
  of tempted to pin it down and be like yes i know for sure you
• 45:10
  know what that is and
• 45:11
  i can create a philosophical system about it and that's the
• 45:14
  ground of being and i'm
• 45:15
  gonna call it god and but at the end of the day i don't know
• 45:19
  what that is i don't
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: know what any of this is and i know
• 45:24
  just the only thing that's undeniable and unavoidable is that
• 45:28
  this is here.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: This is, you know, whatever you want to call it.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_01: Isn't this is being, being is, and that's the only thing I can find.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's like undeniable about my experience is just that it is.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_01: And, but the nice thing is, yeah, like I say, I just,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: have less and less of a need to put it in the box of belief systems.
• 45:53
  And then that allows for just embracing the full spectrum of
• 45:57
  all the different kind
• 45:58
  of emanation modes and dimensions and emanations that it seems
• 46:02
  to drift through as
• 46:04
  it just is continually drifting through these different flavors
• 46:07
  and textures.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beautifully said.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: And yet it has left me,
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: one final note on that,
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: it has left me with this irrevocable,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: profound sense of sacredness that this is incredibly sacred.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is miraculous beyond all comprehension.
• 46:26
  What this fundamentally is,
• 46:27
  is completely,
• 46:28
  completely beyond what I ever imagined it could be.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_01: It just feels...
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: you know, utterly astonishing.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: So that's a good feeling to be left with, I guess.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm happy for you.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: That's such a such a gift.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_02: To be able to concrete concrete size.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, pronunciation.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_02: I practice that one yet.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Be able to do that, but also to be able to let that go.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: To be free of the need of it.
• 47:05
  But to have the skill to...
• 47:09
  If you live life,
• 47:10
  you need to fabricate things.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: You need to make things concrete.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: You need to figure out shelter and food.
• 47:20
  You want the best for your daughter and make sure she has the
• 47:23
  love and care and the
• 47:24
  support and the education that makes her resilient and lives a
• 47:31
  meaningful life and
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: a loving life.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that's beautiful.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: So sometimes in these circles,
• 47:39
  there's sometimes this tendency to be like the absolute
• 47:44
  archetypal hermit.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like I want to move away from everything, any fabrication.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: I want to live a completely unfabricated life.
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's another form of, I think, of delusion.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's about seeing through everything.
• 47:57
  And then you can see through the process and then you can
• 48:00
  become skillful around it.
• 48:02
  And then you can write poetry without having to believe that's
• 48:08
  the fundamental say
• 48:09
  about reality and I have to conform to that view otherwise
• 48:13
  something happens.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's the real freedom.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_02: Can you be free to skillfully fabricate and can you also be free from
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_02: the necessity to always fabricate in certain ways.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: and the more I feel like the deeper I go on this path,
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: and the better I understand it,
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_02: and the deeper my practice goes,
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_02: the more those two spectrums come come together.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_02: And, and then then becomes a question for me, at least,
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: once we realized the emptiness luminosity,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_02: the Tata Gata Barba,
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_02: the womb of existence,
• 49:05
  that's always pregnant with what Meister Eckhart called the
• 49:09
  overflow of the
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_02: Godhead.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the beautiful...
• 49:16
  constant birthing of this miraculous existence this high
• 49:22
  existence what to do with
• 49:27
  that how to live our life knowing that and if I listen to my
• 49:33
  teachers and also if I
• 49:36
  really take the lessons that I you know in the process of my
• 49:41
  illness if I take
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_02: those lessons to heart it's
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: if the fundamental reality is caring,
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: and even though the suffering is in a way fabricated,
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: it's not less real.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: And what do we do about that?
• 50:03
  If our fundamental reality is one of caring,
• 50:07
  then how do we,
• 50:08
  what's the skillfulness in that?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how do we really care for one another?
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how would I care for my body, for people around me?
• 50:17
  And then it becomes like a beautiful practice of this
• 50:19
  refinement and discernment
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: around,
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_02: okay,
• 50:24
  where's the work that I need to do to own up to my own
• 50:30
  projections and not leave a
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: legacy behind of misinformation or distrust or extraction?
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: And how do I tend to
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: those in need with a level of gentleness and care?
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: How do I promote that which is beautiful?
• 50:57
  And realizing there's infinite amount of conditions that come
• 51:05
  together to allow my
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: existence and therefore
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also a factor in this network of,
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: of agency that,
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: that co-fabricates the world universe.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: And so there's a tremendous amount of responsibility in that role.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: so that,
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: that's,
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think the question I have,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: what does that mean in our particularities of our time and in this,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: this age and day,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_02: day and age,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: with ecological destruction,
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: with this political polarization,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: because it's so easy to get dragged along with that.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: And at the same time,
• 51:47
  I think there's a beauty and a potency to live life as a
• 51:53
  recognition of that inner
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_02: light.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_02: of the Buddha Diamond Heart, as you beautifully said.
• 52:02
  And that's not this grandiose kind of identity to take on and
• 52:07
  like,
• 52:07
  ah,
• 52:08
  this is superior.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_02: I have this inside and you don't kind of thing.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_02: But more like, can I go into the mud with the suffering?
• 52:16
  And can I actually be of service and be helpful out of
• 52:19
  solidarity with the
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_02: suffering that's always present for those who don't recognize that?
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's been a big awakening for me personally,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: to kind of not just recognize that,
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_02: but also to be more comfortable stepping into that,
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: acknowledging that that's how I wanna live my life.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: And still very early in that process.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm sure we can have a conversation in four or five years from now,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: where we look back and have some fun at this conversation.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: But that's a question that's really top of mind.
• 53:03
  So I'm curious how you're holding that because I know you're
• 53:06
  supporting a lot of
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: people in their process and their lives.
• 53:12
  And you've grown quite a bit in the sense of taking on that
• 53:21
  responsibility.
• 53:23
  And I assume there's a level of recognition that that type of
• 53:31
  relationship is sacred.
• 53:33
  So I'm curious how that unfolds for you and how do you,
• 53:36
  how does that,
• 53:38
  all that like,
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: that grandness,
• 53:40
  how did that titrates into actually concrete level of having to
• 53:47
  live your life,
• 53:47
  having to wake up in the morning and having to support people
• 53:51
  with some real,
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_02: real things of loss and grief and struggle and that type of thing.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great question.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Jesus Christ put it really succinctly when he said,
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_01: what you do to the least among you,
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: this you also do to me,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: or do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like these...
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like these fundamental,
• 54:24
  these insights or these explorations lead to an increasing
• 54:29
  dissolution of being a
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: separate entity.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_01: And there's more of a sense that we are all the ocean and all the waves
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: fundamentally are the ocean.
• 54:39
  And there's such a deep sense of interconnection and a real
• 54:42
  feeling that what I do
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: to another person,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing to myself.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: And like you say, I won't claim to be
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know, a master on this path of, you know, of skillfulness.
• 54:59
  It's like literally there's room for endless subtlety,
• 55:02
  endless refinement.
• 55:03
  And every stone you turn over and find another layer of shadows
• 55:08
  or blind spots or
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: subtle layers of non-integrity.
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then you try to repair those and uproot that or alchemize that.
• 55:15
  And then you find the next layer of subtle,
• 55:18
  you know,
• 55:18
  subtle ways that you might be
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it becomes stuff that other people might not even see.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very deep inquiry into what does integrity and skillfulness mean?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_01: But that,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: I would say,
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: is my North Star that I orient toward,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: is Christ's statements,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: essentially,
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: encapsulate that North Star,
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: like what I do to anyone,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: this I'm doing to my very own self.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, I really see it as...
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: Insanity that mankind is murdering each other en masse still,
• 55:55
  that we murdered 100 million of our own brothers and sisters in
• 55:59
  the 20th century
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: alone,
• 56:00
  that we continue to murder billions of non-human life forms
• 56:05
  every year just for our
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: own gastric,
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: gastronomic pleasure,
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: basically.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to shame anyone with that.
• 56:16
  I was raised a meat eater and I've eaten meat my whole life and
• 56:22
  at different times
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: tried to drop it and been,
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_01: it's declined over the years.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: And then recently I seem to be...
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: possibly at least for now, making a transition to vegetarianism.
• 56:37
  And that feels good,
• 56:38
  feels aligned because I don't,
• 56:40
  I don't want to kill those animals.
• 56:42
  And if the animal is sitting right in front of me,
• 56:44
  I wouldn't want to kill it.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_01: So why am I participating in that?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: If I don't need to eat it,
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: if I could eat,
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: rice and curry and lentils and potatoes instead,
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_01: generally get the sense that the plants are more neutral about,
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: about their own,
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: about their own demise.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're, they're,
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: much more ancient and, and plants in many ways seem wiser than, than us.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the trees don't kill each other.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_01: They just abide as pure presence, but yeah.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe, maybe some trees do kill things, but any who, yeah.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: What it comes back to for me is,
• 57:26
  I hold a radical vision,
• 57:29
  I would say,
• 57:29
  of ending war,
• 57:32
  not only on Earth,
• 57:33
  but in all worlds.
• 57:35
  I pray for all beings to realize non-separation and wake up
• 57:41
  from this insanity of
• 57:43
  creating a world of war that our children have to then be born
• 57:47
  into and live with a
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: world of violence and abuse and kidnapping and,
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: enslavement and human trafficking.
• 57:55
  SPEAKER_01: I would prefer for all these things to fall away.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: And similar to you, I do feel like the awakening journey is a,
• 58:03
  The only thing that really goes to the root of that is it feels
• 58:06
  like the root is
• 58:07
  this feeling of separation that I'm over here and you're over
• 58:12
  there and you're
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_01: fundamentally different from me.
• 58:15
  Whereas as that dissolves more and more and you see all beings
• 58:18
  as God's children
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: or,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: children of the one light,
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: however you want to put it.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_01: That.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: sense falls away more and more.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_01: And it just feels really obvious,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_01: it's not even hard,
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: everybody,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: come on,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: we could just stop killing each other and live in peace.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: And we could explore the joyful,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: creative,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: beautiful possibilities of life without all this nonsense.
• 58:41
  So that's kind of how I look at it on more of like a few
• 58:46
  different angles.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: And in my day to day life, you know, it shows up as just
• 58:52
  endlessly practicing to be more present with my daughter to
• 58:56
  just put the devices
• 58:59
  away and truly be present with her and just give her pure
• 59:04
  loving presence,
• 59:05
  which I feel is the best gift we can give to anybody is just
• 59:08
  our true loving
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: presence.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I just look in her eyes and
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: start crying and tell her, you know, I love you so much.
• 59:18
  And,
• 59:19
  and just let her know how precious she is and let her know
• 59:22
  she's beautiful.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I love her and, and letting her mother know that she's beautiful.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I love her.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 59:32
  Hugging her every day and,
• 59:35
  and the people I hold space for just as much as possible,
• 59:41
  I try to
• 59:44
  I mean,
• 59:44
  I try to do this all the time,
• 59:46
  but especially when holding space,
• 59:47
  I really try to
• 59:50
  all kind of personal aspects and not in the sense that there's
• 59:56
  still a personal
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_01: human heart quality for sure,
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: a deep like human relatability,
• 1:00:00
  but I try to completely get myself out of the way in a sense
• 1:00:04
  and be unconditional
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: love as deeply as I'm able to for the person in front of me and just pure
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_01: witnessing with no agenda.
• 1:00:12
  I try to remove any agenda that I might have and just be a
• 1:00:15
  space of pure witnessing
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_01: for the people,
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: the person in front of me.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_01: As I've discovered that to be a really deep medicine,
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:23
  just people having a space where they can really feel safe to
• 1:00:27
  share anything,
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: full spectrum of life,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: and it can be witnessed and held in love and grace.
• 1:00:33
  And there's a lot of other aspects to it,
• 1:00:36
  too,
• 1:00:36
  but that's probably the most fundamental thing.
• 1:00:42
  aspect of my space holding is to be a space of unconditional
• 1:00:46
  love,
• 1:00:47
  unconditional witnessing.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: Be the space.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's beautiful.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the agenda of no agenda.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah,
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_02: yeah,
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: that's so much resonance with the Bodhisattva path,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_02: and according to Buddhists,
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_02: like Jesus was one of the greatest Bodhisattvas ever.
• 1:01:09
  I don't necessarily buy into the metaphysical,
• 1:01:10
  like the,
• 1:01:12
  the,
• 1:01:13
  the son of God,
• 1:01:14
  the
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: Or,
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:01:16
  they don't make a fundamental distinction between everybody's
• 1:01:19
  divine reincarnation
• 1:01:21
  SPEAKER_02: in some ways.
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_02: And that leads to the preciousness of treating every being as a Buddha.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's like before the Dzogchen,
• 1:01:34
  there's like the tantric path and big part of the tantric path
• 1:01:37
  is developing almost
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_02: everything you just said is this capacity for pure vision,
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_02: where instead of our tendencies to think things are ordinary,
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_02: if things are not inherently this way or that way,
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_02: we can develop the skillfulness of seeing things in a sacred way.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 1:02:00
  know whatever lens is appropriate and that could be you know
• 1:02:05
  treat um at least
• 1:02:08
  amongst us as if they're the body of christ and and that's
• 1:02:13
  incredibly skillful and
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: um like the reality i think will look very very different
• 1:02:22
  If you choose to look at it that way and you actually
• 1:02:26
  understand the profundity of
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: that,
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: it's not just a decision,
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_02: right?
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's not just a label you put on.
• 1:02:31
  It's like everything suddenly comes into focus in that way as
• 1:02:36
  like a fundamental
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_02: factor or anchor.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the best facilitators...
• 1:02:46
  they go through the process of embodying and integrating that
• 1:02:50
  because the more you
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_02: feel like that's the North Star,
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_02: it will put in juxtaposition like all the moments when,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: ah,
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_02: I...
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't fully in integrity here.
• 1:03:04
  Like I there's like a need that I wasn't fully aware of that I
• 1:03:07
  tried to to to fill
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_02: or to fulfill.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, and potentially that caused harm.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:03:18
  doesn't make you less of a less of a human being or doesn't
• 1:03:23
  make you a bad person.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_02: But it does invite you to wait a minute.
• 1:03:31
  I can learn something here and I don't want to fulfill my needs
• 1:03:38
  in this way because
• 1:03:43
  this other person is actually more important than my own needs
• 1:03:45
  in this moment.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_02: Not that your needs are unimportant,
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: not that you need to negate yourself as a martyr or anything,
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_02: because I think sometimes that happens as well in these spaces.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_02: But how can you be empowered and self-empowered
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: and support the other person being empowered and self-empowered too,
• 1:04:01
  without necessarily having to take something from them or make
• 1:04:05
  them less or,
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_02: make yourself less,
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_02: and I think that that's really gorgeous.
• 1:04:11
  So I'm,
• 1:04:12
  I'm very inspired to hear you,
• 1:04:15
  you're holding it,
• 1:04:16
  holding it that way.
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you, brother.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_01: And, um, yeah, interestingly, um,
• 1:04:28
  SPEAKER_01: This comes up, I feel you might find it interesting.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: A friend who has gone deep into
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_01: Buddhism,
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: I believe,
• 1:04:35
  and contemplative traditions told me that one of his teachers
• 1:04:38
  told him at some
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: point,
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: if you're doing healing work,
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: it's very valuable to have a sense of a lineage holder,
• 1:04:46
  that essentially if you try to take all this karma onto
• 1:04:50
  yourself in some way,
• 1:04:51
  or it's easy for facilitators or healers or space holders to
• 1:04:56
  take on the baggage of
• 1:04:58
  SPEAKER_01: the people they're working with,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: and that...
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you try to take that on yourself,
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: it can easily be a recipe for burnout or physical illness or,
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_01: it just weighing you down.
• 1:05:09
  And so having some sense of a lineage holder who you can offer
• 1:05:13
  everything up to in
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: a sense,
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_01: like affirm,
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_01: this is not mine to hang on to.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_01: I give it all to Christ.
• 1:05:20
  SPEAKER_01: In my case, it's like Christ feels like my lineage holder.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_01: I've had a very unexpected kind of full circle experience.
• 1:05:30
  just return to my ancestral roots in some sense although i hold
• 1:05:36
  it very differently
• 1:05:37
  from most people i mean i've had i've had just some of the most
• 1:05:42
  profound mystical
• 1:05:44
  SPEAKER_01: experiences of my life both with psychedelics but also sober just having
• 1:05:49
  visions of christ listening to christ-focused music visions of
• 1:05:54
  him and his light
• 1:05:55
  coming to my heart and just like weeping and weeping and just
• 1:05:59
  feeling this sense of
• 1:06:00
  pure love and pure truth and pure grace flowing through when
• 1:06:06
  that's happening and
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's been very valuable to me to also have that sense of a,
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_01: like a transcendent lineage holder or face of divinity,
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: you could say,
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_01: that everything can be offered up to.
• 1:06:18
  I often visualize like a skylight up above or also use the
• 1:06:22
  earth and we'll
• 1:06:23
  visualize like a portal to the earth below and just like offer
• 1:06:27
  everything to these
• 1:06:28
  kind of divine beings that can help to digest and metabolize
• 1:06:34
  all of this stuff.
• 1:06:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I find that helpful and
• 1:06:37
  But yeah,
• 1:06:38
  I recently wrote an essay that I'll publish soon about the
• 1:06:43
  current title is
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_01: the trans pin downable Christ.
• 1:06:47
  And it's essentially all about how Christ himself is beyond
• 1:06:51
  what can be pinned down.
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that,
• 1:06:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_01: a lot of people,
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_01: if they had visions of Christ,
• 1:06:56
  SPEAKER_01: they would probably jump to,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_01: this must mean,
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:06:59
  the Bible is completely true and Jesus is the one savior and
• 1:07:03
  this is the only way.
• 1:07:04
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, and yeah, I don't hold it that way myself.
• 1:07:08
  I just see,
• 1:07:09
  I see the mystery of that presence,
• 1:07:12
  you know,
• 1:07:12
  I've experienced
• 1:07:15
  i've experienced other saints and and yogis and sages and stuff
• 1:07:20
  from different
• 1:07:20
  traditions in similar ways too so that's kind of helped me to
• 1:07:23
  realize okay this
• 1:07:25
  isn't specific to one tradition whatever whatever this
• 1:07:28
  beingness is this vastness
• 1:07:30
  it has a peculiar quality of being able to emanate forth to us
• 1:07:35
  in a living language
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: that we can relate to or that we can understand and
• 1:07:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_01: I just hold that as a mystery and can see the infinity,
• 1:07:46
  SPEAKER_01: the non-pinned down ability,
• 1:07:48
  SPEAKER_01: the unfindability of it.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, that doesn't make it less profound.
• 1:07:54
  It makes it more profound because it's like it has all the
• 1:07:58
  divine love and grace.
• 1:08:00
  SPEAKER_01: And you see like, wow, it just opens into pure infinity.
• 1:08:04
  SPEAKER_01: Kind of similarly with my daughter, it's like when I started to...
• 1:08:11
  deeply experience and discover like what she's like when I
• 1:08:18
  don't pin her down at
• 1:08:19
  all when I when I kind of in a way almost like for forget her
• 1:08:23
  name or forget what
• 1:08:24
  she supposedly is and I just let her be just the sparkling
• 1:08:28
  radiance or you know as
• 1:08:29
  SPEAKER_01: you say the sparkling luminosity and
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_01: She's still there.
• 1:08:34
  I wanted to touch on the word fabricated at some point because
• 1:08:39
  I feel like this
• 1:08:40
  word sticks a little bit for me because it makes it sound like
• 1:08:43
  things are fake or
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: artificial the way that I hear it.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah,
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: to me,
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 1:08:48
  SPEAKER_01: if I drop all concretization,
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: she's still fully there,
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: but she's revealed as the ocean itself,
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:08:57
  SPEAKER_01: emanating forth as the pure luminous mystery of,
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: what I call my daughter Lila.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know what she is.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I, and, and, you know, I don't own her in any sense.
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_01: And, and she, but she's then this, like this free emanation and,
• 1:09:12
  She is there as the ocean,
• 1:09:14
  you know,
• 1:09:14
  presenting as that face of divinity.
• 1:09:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that's kind of the way I see it.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, beautiful.
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_02: Beautifully put.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_02: So in my language,
• 1:09:27
  SPEAKER_02: what would fall away then is the fabrication of her just as this,
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_02: like from a material view,
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 1:09:34
  SPEAKER_02: just a body,
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_02: just this form.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a fabrication.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_02: And you could say the ocean is a much more refined fabrication.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_02: But even that can fall away.
• 1:09:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then it's maybe just this Christ reality.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's maybe even more refined form of fabrication.
• 1:09:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like if all fabrication falls away, perception falls away.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of the technical...
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_02: the technical view in Buddhism,
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_02: where perception is fabricated dependent on craving or clinging.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_02: And if that falls away, levels of
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_02: levels of fabrication fall away,
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_02: including like sense of having a body,
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_02: sense of time,
• 1:10:26
  SPEAKER_02: sense of space itself,
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_02: and all the way down to the unfabricated.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: And that's kind of the ocean.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_02: That's kind of one taste of everything.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so for me,
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_02: the fabrication,
• 1:10:41
  like I'm so kind of indoctrinated in the tradition that it
• 1:10:44
  doesn't feel fake.
• 1:10:47
  um like the there's a there's a it comes actually from the
• 1:10:51
  western tradition
• 1:10:52
  there's a distinction between things that are fabricated poorly
• 1:10:56
  and things that are
• 1:10:57
  built well and and i think wisdom traditions they are they're
• 1:11:04
  very coherent
• 1:11:07
  SPEAKER_02: with reality.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_02: They explain reality.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_02: They try to be incredibly truthful.
• 1:11:12
  SPEAKER_02: If they're authentic and they lead to actual beautiful fruit,
• 1:11:19
  SPEAKER_02: you shall recognize them by how they are.
• 1:11:22
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 1:11:25
  SPEAKER_02: And so that's kind of the litmus test for me,
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_02: that if something is really embodied and the way they see it,
• 1:11:32
  SPEAKER_02: it has a level of integrity,
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_02: of truthfulness.
• 1:11:35
  SPEAKER_02: And those are beautiful fabrications.
• 1:11:38
  SPEAKER_02: Those are the pinnacle of human resonance with the mystery.
• 1:11:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then there are things that are fabricated very, very poorly.
• 1:11:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then I share that...
• 1:11:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_02: that connotation of,
• 1:11:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_02: this is not worth our time,
• 1:12:00
  SPEAKER_02: kind of,
• 1:12:02
  SPEAKER_02: it's like meant to deceive or meant to extract or meant to,
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_02: that's the difference for me.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_02: Anyways, I wanted to circle back that the,
• 1:12:17
  what your friend told about the tradition and being able to
• 1:12:19
  have a lineage holder,
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_02: like traditionally,
• 1:12:25
  SPEAKER_02: like in Buddhism,
• 1:12:26
  SPEAKER_02: you take refuge in the Buddha Dharma Sangha and,
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_02: and taking refuge is such a profound concept,
• 1:12:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:12:33
  that it took me also more than a decade to even scratch the
• 1:12:37
  surface of that.
• 1:12:39
  SPEAKER_02: And, and,
• 1:12:44
  SPEAKER_02: Lineage does many things.
• 1:12:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's the living transmission,
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: because without any lineage,
• 1:12:51
  SPEAKER_02: you would not have been able to recognize that.
• 1:12:54
  SPEAKER_02: You had to do all the work on your own, which...
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:12:58
  SPEAKER_02: I probably wouldn't have been able to do if I never saw an example,
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_02: like I would probably be very confused and do something else.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a function.
• 1:13:08
  But it's also this living energy that on one end allows you to
• 1:13:18
  recognize that it
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_02: exists,
• 1:13:20
  SPEAKER_02: like to have a vision of Christ.
• 1:13:22
  It's like then you suddenly experience,
• 1:13:24
  oh,
• 1:13:24
  there's a possibility that this is true.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_02: And in Buddhism,
• 1:13:29
  SPEAKER_02: it basically goes through steps where you do something called guru yoga,
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_02: which is a yoga,
• 1:13:37
  which is a practice where you visualize your lineage holder or
• 1:13:43
  your actual guru
• 1:13:44
  SPEAKER_02: that's in this form.
• 1:13:45
  SPEAKER_02: And the more you're able to see that person as an enlightened being,
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_02: the better you're able to recognize your own capacity.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so from a Buddhist point of view,
• 1:13:57
  SPEAKER_02: from an ultimate view,
• 1:14:01
  SPEAKER_02: you're able to pin your burdens to this transcendental Christ figure.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_02: is a beautiful way expression that you have that your mind,
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_02: your,
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_02: you are an expression of Christ itself.
• 1:14:21
  SPEAKER_02: And you have that capacity to, to liberate and self liberate.
• 1:14:27
  No matter what comes,
• 1:14:28
  you have the capacity to hold it all and to,
• 1:14:31
  to,
• 1:14:31
  to digest it all.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_02: you can,
• 1:14:34
  SPEAKER_02: you can choose to stay,
• 1:14:35
  SPEAKER_02: stay,
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_02: to stay attached to it and hold onto it.
• 1:14:38
  SPEAKER_02: And, and, and, you know, um,
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_02: run yourself amok with that,
• 1:14:45
  but you can also hand it over if that's skillful or realize it
• 1:14:50
  was empty from the
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_02: very beginning and there was nothing,
• 1:14:53
  SPEAKER_02: nothing sticky to it at all.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_02: That's like,
• 1:14:57
  SPEAKER_02: those are different layers and not one is not,
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_02: those are just the same thing from different perspectives.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that one is higher or better.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's just kind of different preferences and depending on your karma,
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_02: depending on your predispositions,
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_02: you might have a,
• 1:15:13
  a propensity to to like this or this works better for you than
• 1:15:18
  than that.
• 1:15:18
  SPEAKER_02: And that's totally fine.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_02: And.
• 1:15:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's an incredible, incredible practice that, you know,
• 1:15:29
  Buddhism is seen like if you just do that practice like for you
• 1:15:33
  if you just listen
• 1:15:33
  to Christ music and you see that vision and you do that long
• 1:15:37
  enough you might
• 1:15:38
  recognize yourself as everything was already Christ to very
• 1:15:42
  beginning and you've
• 1:15:43
  always been an embodiment of heaven on earth and there's no
• 1:15:49
  duality between you
• 1:15:51
  know you the teachings you're a guru and at one point like you
• 1:15:56
  might be a lineage
• 1:15:57
  SPEAKER_02: head
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:15:58
  you might be someone who can receive all those projections
• 1:16:04
  without necessarily
• 1:16:05
  SPEAKER_02: taking them on and be that refuge for others.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_02: And then you got that light that,
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_02: and my teacher said,
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_02: my teacher lit my bottle lamp.
• 1:16:24
  And my role,
• 1:16:26
  my intent is to light your body lamp so you can light a lot of
• 1:16:30
  people.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the only way,
• 1:16:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 1:16:34
  SPEAKER_02: where we can build community and build this recognition where it wouldn't
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_02: necessarily be perfect,
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_02: where no conflict or no disagreements will ever happen.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_02: But when they do,
• 1:16:50
  there's a level of understanding and compassion and care that
• 1:16:54
  it wouldn't escalate
• 1:16:55
  SPEAKER_02: to levels of violence that,
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:16:58
  SPEAKER_02: we see,
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_02: we see Sally still see in the world today.
• 1:17:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that intent,
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:17:05
  SPEAKER_02: according to some,
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_02: some of the tradition,
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_02: just having that intent,
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_02: that recognition,
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_02: that's enough.
• 1:17:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, if you just,
• 1:17:16
  remember that,
• 1:17:17
  and recognize that in every moment,
• 1:17:19
  you,
• 1:17:20
  you'll get there.
• 1:17:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's inevitable.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a lot of wisdom and beauty in that.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_02: So
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's great.
• 1:17:32
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know you were so deep on this path.
• 1:17:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a long time.
• 1:17:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think we've chatted this deeply about things.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm amazed and touched by the convergence I'm hearing.
• 1:17:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's an amazing overlap.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's really beautiful to talk to you, my friend.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would say that
• 1:18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Christ is omnipresent and Christ is in whom we live,
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: move and have our being,
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:18:05
  SPEAKER_01: and I feel though that,
• 1:18:08
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Christ is one,
• 1:18:10
  one word that can be used for that all present Buddha field or
• 1:18:14
  field of luminous
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: light,
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_01: in most heart of grace,
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_01: whatever that is.
• 1:18:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's at least the experiential feeling that I have when I'm,
• 1:18:25
  feel most kind of open to this or most in touch with,
• 1:18:28
  with this,
• 1:18:29
  with this wholeness.
• 1:18:30
  SPEAKER_01: And, and in that sense, I am in it.
• 1:18:37
  SPEAKER_01: I want to ask you in a sense,
• 1:18:38
  SPEAKER_01: would you say that this now and all that there is,
• 1:18:41
  SPEAKER_01: is ultimately only the unfabricated,
• 1:18:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you create a dichotomy or duality of fabricated,
• 1:18:50
  SPEAKER_01: unfabricated,
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_01: that is just another duality that needs to fall away,
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Revealing pure, the pure real, the real as all there is.
• 1:19:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this has been a debate for over a thousand years.
• 1:19:04
  SPEAKER_02: And...
• 1:19:07
  SPEAKER_02: The way I hold it,
• 1:19:09
  I'm holding a non-duality that doesn't make an opposition
• 1:19:15
  between duality and
• 1:19:16
  SPEAKER_02: non-duality.
• 1:19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Meaning non-duality contains a duality,
• 1:19:25
  which helps us move through the world and make decisions and
• 1:19:29
  not basically be lost
• 1:19:32
  SPEAKER_02: in the ocean of one taste.
• 1:19:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_02: But it's very nuanced.
• 1:19:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it depends a lot on how you're holding it.
• 1:19:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think it's,
• 1:19:48
  it could be not a duality that you feel like everything needs
• 1:19:50
  to be non dual.
• 1:19:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I cannot make any difference whatsoever.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't, I don't intuitively feel that's correct.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if my understanding is correct, which
• 1:20:07
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I wouldn't refuse to say it is.
• 1:20:14
  It's in the end,
• 1:20:17
  everything remains the same,
• 1:20:18
  but looked at from a very different view.
• 1:20:22
  And in the sense that it becomes another one of those important
• 1:20:34
  questions on the
• 1:20:34
  SPEAKER_02: path,
• 1:20:35
  SPEAKER_02: but the more
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_02: it becomes an embodied living.
• 1:20:40
  SPEAKER_02: The question doesn't really become that important anymore.
• 1:20:44
  Like once you've recognized the deep ever omnipresent presence
• 1:20:51
  of this pure
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_02: goodness and care,
• 1:20:55
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_02: Whether it is or it doesn't matter much.
• 1:21:02
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't make a difference.
• 1:21:06
  And at least what I'm noticing is I'm gravitating towards
• 1:21:10
  teachers that seem to embody that.
• 1:21:12
  They don't really care about discussions or they don't really
• 1:21:16
  talk about that.
• 1:21:16
  SPEAKER_02: All they do is try and help you recognize your own nature
• 1:21:22
  in all moments and then you know you don't need a teacher
• 1:21:25
  anymore per se you don't
• 1:21:27
  need lineage anymore like it's like you don't you're not it's
• 1:21:31
  not dependent on any
• 1:21:32
  form and any particularity any condition it's it's ever you
• 1:21:37
  know everywhere all the
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_02: time no matter what and
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then the question becomes, can I live from that place?
• 1:21:46
  And that becomes the nitty gritty work of actually looking at
• 1:21:54
  every moment of your life.
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_02: Like,
• 1:21:57
  SPEAKER_02: can you,
• 1:21:57
  can you remain in that indestructible wakefulness throughout
• 1:22:03
  all the tendencies to
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_02: avoid or distract or extract or close down or,
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_02: and that becomes like the beautiful playfulness of,
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_02: of the practice.
• 1:22:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, much easier said than done.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_01: Beautifully said.
• 1:22:27
  SPEAKER_01: Indestructible wakefulness.
• 1:22:28
  SPEAKER_01: I like that phrase.
• 1:22:29
  And yeah,
• 1:22:32
  for me,
• 1:22:32
  the way that piece shows up around like everything being real.
• 1:22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 1:22:39
  SPEAKER_01: really,
• 1:22:40
  SPEAKER_01: like we've discussed in this conversation,
• 1:22:42
  SPEAKER_01: words,
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: concepts,
• 1:22:43
  SPEAKER_01: definitions fall away and you're just left with
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_01: this as it is right in front of you.
• 1:22:51
  SPEAKER_01: And like you say,
• 1:22:52
  that can include experiences of feeling a sense of being human
• 1:22:58
  and a sense of,
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:23:00
  SPEAKER_01: I like this body is here and I'm here in a sense and I'm hugging you.
• 1:23:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I would say that's that's also
• 1:23:09
  fully this that's also fully this light shining forth as that
• 1:23:14
  you know appearance
• 1:23:15
  in that moment and if there is some kind of conceptual overlay
• 1:23:19
  or that's partially
• 1:23:21
  infused in there that's also made of the light that's also made
• 1:23:25
  of the Buddha it's
• 1:23:27
  made of this pure energy and so it's yeah it's kind of like you
• 1:23:35
  just more and more
• 1:23:35
  SPEAKER_01: feel the
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_01: what everything's made of in a sense.
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you start to learn how to rest as what it's made of.
• 1:23:45
  SPEAKER_01: And like you say,
• 1:23:49
  SPEAKER_01: the pinning it down becomes less and less relevant,
• 1:23:54
  but it is still interesting to have these conversations and
• 1:23:58
  explore different ways
• 1:24:00
  SPEAKER_01: of speaking about it.
• 1:24:03
  Yeah,
• 1:24:04
  I think that like finding the right language for other people
• 1:24:07
  to recognize it
• 1:24:09
  SPEAKER_02: and kind of,
• 1:24:10
  SPEAKER_02: or be interested in and be on the path or whatever,
• 1:24:13
  SPEAKER_02: if they're interested in it,
• 1:24:14
  SPEAKER_02: not everybody has to obviously,
• 1:24:16
  SPEAKER_02: but it becomes like a question of skillfulness,
• 1:24:20
  SPEAKER_02: but from a fundamental level,
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_02: even,
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_02: even duality is liberated in its own place.
• 1:24:26
  SPEAKER_02: And, and that's, that's beautiful.
• 1:24:29
  SPEAKER_02: And it, it points to the absolute, but it's, it doesn't capture it.
• 1:24:34
  SPEAKER_02: And, um,
• 1:24:38
  SPEAKER_02: And the question is,
• 1:24:41
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 1:24:41
  SPEAKER_02: the litmus test is,
• 1:24:44
  SPEAKER_02: does it lead to this sense of this release of suffering,
• 1:24:49
  SPEAKER_02: the release of contraction?
• 1:24:51
  Does it point or allow me to rest into this spaciousness that
• 1:24:59
  doesn't,
• 1:25:04
  you know,
• 1:25:08
  SPEAKER_02: almost pathologically,
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_02: compulsively trying to arrange things constantly,
• 1:25:16
  either symbolically inflating or deflating symbolically or
• 1:25:21
  materially in a way that
• 1:25:24
  SPEAKER_02: I got mine and I'm comfortable and not seeing how it impacts others.
• 1:25:32
  SPEAKER_02: And I found over time that becomes less and less and less.
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I can be much more generous.
• 1:25:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that generosity allows people like, wait a minute.
• 1:25:45
  SPEAKER_02: I don't need to be so contracted either.
• 1:25:48
  SPEAKER_02: And they can recognize the spaciousness.
• 1:25:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the lamp you're able to transmit.
• 1:25:55
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the work that I am committed to and devoted to.
• 1:25:59
  SPEAKER_02: Because I found the more I can do that for myself, the...
• 1:26:06
  SPEAKER_02: you know, step by step, the more, the more space I can give to others.
• 1:26:11
  SPEAKER_02: And the more I don't have to put it,
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:26:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can refuse to participate in reifying the suffering,
• 1:26:25
  SPEAKER_02: which helps sometimes to
• 1:26:31
  um well these moments of liberation um and i can let people be
• 1:26:36
  who they are without
• 1:26:38
  necessarily um you know having to have the right story or
• 1:26:45
  getting what's my what i
• 1:26:46
  feel like is righteously mine or whatever and and that's kind
• 1:26:51
  of the non-extractive
• 1:26:53
  of this practice or the demand for integrity that I think is
• 1:27:02
  it's really amazing
• 1:27:06
  and for me it's been that's where lineage really comes into
• 1:27:09
  play like having
• 1:27:10
  teachers who you know they don't have to be perfect this is
• 1:27:14
  what I thought when I
• 1:27:15
  was younger like I needed them to be perfect but that was just
• 1:27:18
  a way for me to not
• 1:27:19
  SPEAKER_02: having to
• 1:27:21
  actually engage and now it's become like if they're if they can
• 1:27:25
  help me and they're
• 1:27:27
  embodying it in a way that i can see the potential of this path
• 1:27:32
  that's that's
• 1:27:33
  enough that's so incredibly precious and i think that's the
• 1:27:36
  function of of teachers
• 1:27:39
  SPEAKER_02: and then then retroactively for um
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_02: not retroactively,
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_02: but if you proactively think about,
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_02: wait a minute,
• 1:27:49
  SPEAKER_02: if they transmit that to me,
• 1:27:51
  SPEAKER_02: then I can transmit that to others.
• 1:27:54
  And that's fundamentally the Bodhisattva path where awakening
• 1:27:59
  doesn't happen as an
• 1:28:00
  SPEAKER_02: individual,
• 1:28:01
  SPEAKER_02: but it happens as a collective path.
• 1:28:03
  SPEAKER_02: But the human and non-human,
• 1:28:05
  all factors come together as this awakened play and
• 1:28:10
  participating full-heartedly
• 1:28:11
  SPEAKER_02: that in the full spectrum living,
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_02: as you mentioned,
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_02: that becomes like the life's tremendous invitation and adventure.
• 1:28:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that is...
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's kind of,
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_02: for me,
• 1:28:30
  it's like the antithesis to the hypnotizing consumerism and
• 1:28:35
  extractivism that's
• 1:28:36
  SPEAKER_02: happening.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_02: And it's kind of like this,
• 1:28:39
  SPEAKER_02: if you look at the last 150 years,
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_02: there's been this crazy explosion that's like,
• 1:28:44
  SPEAKER_02: it's like run on hydrocarbon fuel that's,
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: not sustainable.
• 1:28:48
  SPEAKER_02: And it's forgotten something, you know, it's forgotten.
• 1:28:53
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very clear to all the peoples who have been,
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:28:57
  SPEAKER_02: exploited and conquered and colonized
• 1:29:00
  you know,
• 1:29:00
  that have those wisdom traditions or have those wisdom
• 1:29:03
  traditions.
• 1:29:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, we don't know what white man is looking for.
• 1:29:06
  They're always looking,
• 1:29:07
  they're incessantly feverishly trying to get something.
• 1:29:13
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:29:14
  SPEAKER_02: you look at Wall Street or Silicon Valley and,
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:29:17
  SPEAKER_02: I've run a startup with crazy months and I know that drive.
• 1:29:21
  SPEAKER_02: I know that trying to fill that inner lack
• 1:29:29
  SPEAKER_02: to prop oneself up,
• 1:29:30
  SPEAKER_02: that conceit,
• 1:29:32
  SPEAKER_02: what Buddhism calls like this,
• 1:29:34
  trying to fulfill oneself by becoming a slave to dependencies
• 1:29:39
  of external form.
• 1:29:41
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't seem, it's not sustainable.
• 1:29:44
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't seem to lead to everlasting happiness.
• 1:29:48
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't lead to integrity.
• 1:29:50
  It leads to,
• 1:29:52
  you know,
• 1:29:53
  basically the overlap of what Christiane talks about,
• 1:29:57
  all the vices,
• 1:29:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the fundamental delusion in Buddhism or the three poisons.
• 1:30:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's like if you put it in your mind stream,
• 1:30:06
  SPEAKER_02: you get poisoned and it's clear and everything around you get poisoned.
• 1:30:11
  SPEAKER_02: And,
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_02: it's like we've poisoned the earth enough,
• 1:30:16
  SPEAKER_02: I think,
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_02: and it's not going to end well.
• 1:30:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's already not ending well.
• 1:30:20
  And so many species have died out and so many peoples and
• 1:30:23
  languages have disappeared.
• 1:30:26
  SPEAKER_02: And there's like little pockets left, and it's only speeding up.
• 1:30:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so the only solution is to kind of drop out of that wall.
• 1:30:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that wall, I think, fabricated unreal world.
• 1:30:47
  SPEAKER_02: And for me,
• 1:30:48
  SPEAKER_02: taking refuge in wisdom tradition,
• 1:30:50
  SPEAKER_02: in lineage,
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_02: in stichisk,
• 1:30:52
  SPEAKER_02: in sanghas,
• 1:30:53
  SPEAKER_02: in communities,
• 1:30:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 1:30:55
  that's the only way to remain resilient and I think the
• 1:30:58
  unfolding of conflict
• 1:31:01
  SPEAKER_02: that's going to happen and this is already happening.
• 1:31:03
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 1:31:03
  SPEAKER_02: so it's not just,
• 1:31:05
  SPEAKER_02: it's not just an individual,
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_02: like,
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_02: ah,
• 1:31:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'm going to have awakened experiences.
• 1:31:10
  SPEAKER_02: No,
• 1:31:10
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_02: how can you be useful in community,
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:31:15
  SPEAKER_02: be dependable,
• 1:31:16
  SPEAKER_02: being a good person that,
• 1:31:20
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:31:23
  is able to honor and recognize the conditions that allow life
• 1:31:29
  to exist to begin with and
• 1:31:32
  SPEAKER_02: give back to reciprocity through modeling a level of maturity.
• 1:31:45
  SPEAKER_02: That is something that,
• 1:31:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:31:48
  SPEAKER_02: was deeply missed when I grew up and created,
• 1:31:51
  I think creates a lot of confusion because we don't really have
• 1:31:54
  clear models or the
• 1:31:55
  SPEAKER_02: models are not very valued.
• 1:31:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so you get these weird
• 1:32:00
  SPEAKER_02: really strange, obscene accesses of culture that
• 1:32:06
  SPEAKER_02: that have no good ending.
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_02: They lead to self-destruction consistently.
• 1:32:12
  SPEAKER_02: And theoretically, it seems unavoidable.
• 1:32:16
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, it feels avoidable.
• 1:32:20
  But from a samsara kind of fundamental original sin or
• 1:32:25
  fundamental samsara
• 1:32:26
  SPEAKER_02: perspective,
• 1:32:27
  SPEAKER_02: maybe it's not avoidable.
• 1:32:30
  SPEAKER_02: And it's just for the very few who recognize that there's a way out.
• 1:32:34
  And fundamentally there,
• 1:32:35
  you know,
• 1:32:36
  there was never,
• 1:32:37
  never a problem to begin with.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that's the fundamental liberation.
• 1:32:40
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 1:32:41
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_02: that's what I,
• 1:32:44
  SPEAKER_02: uh,
• 1:32:46
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:32:46
  that's what I believe is now the most important way to orient
• 1:32:51
  myself as a North
• 1:32:52
  SPEAKER_02: star.
• 1:32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 1:32:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beautifully said.
• 1:32:56
  I love how you continue to bring the conversation back down to
• 1:33:00
  the ground of that
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_01: earthly level of orienting in our civilization ethically and skillfully.
• 1:33:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to have to let you go in a moment, my friend.
• 1:33:10
  I wonder,
• 1:33:11
  is there any any final word if you were to share any final
• 1:33:17
  message with listeners?
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Is there any final wisdom or or life lesson that you'd like to share?
• 1:33:37
  SPEAKER_02: What comes up for me right now is
• 1:33:44
  SPEAKER_02: think what we both alluded to in this conversation,
• 1:33:47
  that everyone was listening to this and everyone was not
• 1:33:50
  listening to this,
• 1:33:51
  SPEAKER_02: like you matter.
• 1:33:54
  And it's impossible to actually perceive and recognize the
• 1:34:03
  importance of you
• 1:34:07
  SPEAKER_02: playing this this playing out in this this world system.
• 1:34:11
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 1:34:16
  And so my wish is for anyone to recognize the beauty of their
• 1:34:22
  soul,
• 1:34:22
  their their being.
• 1:34:24
  SPEAKER_02: And
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_02: through that,
• 1:34:31
  find this level of ease and spaciousness and care and beauty
• 1:34:34
  and love that's
• 1:34:38
  SPEAKER_02: available to all of us at any moment.
• 1:34:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's our, it's our birthright, if you will.
• 1:34:49
  And even if you don't experience that,
• 1:34:53
  or you don't believe that's possible,
• 1:34:56
  that's okay too.
• 1:34:59
  And I would kindly invite to question that and see what will be
• 1:35:06
  your next step for you?
• 1:35:07
  SPEAKER_02: What will be a path for you?
• 1:35:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think as the world unfolds in the way it's going,
• 1:35:14
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:35:16
  we need resilience and we need kindness and beauty and every
• 1:35:21
  little act matters
• 1:35:23
  SPEAKER_02: tremendously.
• 1:35:24
  SPEAKER_02: It matters to the person receiving that or the being receiving that.
• 1:35:28
  And that capacity is almost infinite,
• 1:35:33
  the more we realize our fundamental nature.
• 1:35:42
  SPEAKER_02: We've already always been this infinite being.
• 1:35:46
  SPEAKER_02: And there's nothing that we cannot give.
• 1:35:50
  SPEAKER_02: And our capacity to support one another
• 1:35:56
  is infinite and can grow word by word,
• 1:36:01
  insight by insight,
• 1:36:02
  practice by practice.
• 1:36:03
  SPEAKER_02: So,
• 1:36:05
  SPEAKER_02: so life is tremendously precious and,
• 1:36:11
  SPEAKER_02: and find a path,
• 1:36:12
  SPEAKER_02: find a teacher,
• 1:36:13
  SPEAKER_02: find a group,
• 1:36:14
  SPEAKER_02: find a friend who
• 1:36:20
  sees that in you and supports you in that and empowers you to
• 1:36:23
  be that way.
• 1:36:23
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it's such a gift to receive and to give to others.
• 1:36:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so thank you.
• 1:36:32
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jordan, for doing that work, doing that work yourself.
• 1:36:35
  I'm tremendously impressed by how you've grown over the years
• 1:36:40
  that I've known you.
• 1:36:42
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very deeply inspirational.
• 1:36:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very glad people like you exist that care so much and
• 1:36:49
  have the intelligence and the courage to to explore these these
• 1:36:54
  realms that you
• 1:36:55
  know are deeply uncomfortable and confrontational and yet at
• 1:36:58
  the same time you know
• 1:37:01
  finding that that confidence of wow this is the path like i can
• 1:37:07
  i can see it in my
• 1:37:08
  relationship with my daughter with my wife with my with you
• 1:37:12
  know with my uh
• 1:37:16
  SPEAKER_02: all the people that depend on you and look, look to you for support.
• 1:37:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's why we do the work.
• 1:37:25
  And,
• 1:37:26
  and you showing that it's possible,
• 1:37:30
  you know,
• 1:37:33
  shows other people as possible.
• 1:37:35
  SPEAKER_02: And that I think, perhaps tips the balance just enough.
• 1:37:41
  SPEAKER_02: You know,
• 1:37:42
  SPEAKER_02: I'm very much of a Tolkien guy in that sense,
• 1:37:46
  SPEAKER_02: where it's the tiny moments of kindness that can hold evil at bay.
• 1:37:55
  SPEAKER_02: And I found that true in my life.
• 1:37:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I hope that's true.
• 1:38:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I hope more people can live that way.
• 1:38:06
  SPEAKER_02: Because
• 1:38:08
  SPEAKER_02: Sure as hell, the world seems to need it more and more.
• 1:38:11
  SPEAKER_02: Hmm.
• 1:38:17
  SPEAKER_01: Beautifully said, my friend.
• 1:38:18
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing.
• 1:38:20
  And I'm just about finished reading the trilogy in recent
• 1:38:24
  weeks,
• 1:38:24
  actually.
• 1:38:24
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been an amazing experience.
• 1:38:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's really amazing.
• 1:38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, first time reading the whole trilogy.
• 1:38:35
  SPEAKER_01: I had read The Hobbit years ago.
• 1:38:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's incredible.
• 1:38:40
  Is there any,
• 1:38:41
  if people wanted to find out more about your work,
• 1:38:44
  where should they look?
• 1:38:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I spent the last almost two years now.
• 1:38:55
  SPEAKER_02: For those who don't know,
• 1:38:56
  I've been in the psychedelic field for almost a decade and I
• 1:39:02
  feel like I've gone
• 1:39:02
  through different cycles and I've come to pretty firm
• 1:39:07
  resolution that for the
• 1:39:12
  SPEAKER_02: space's maturity,
• 1:39:15
  SPEAKER_02: it needs to be rooted in wisdom traditions.
• 1:39:17
  SPEAKER_02: And the one I'm most familiar and comfortable with is Buddhism.
• 1:39:20
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've been developing like what will be the right,
• 1:39:25
  like if you wanted to work with psychedelics and you think that
• 1:39:28
  would be a skillful
• 1:39:29
  SPEAKER_02: way of,
• 1:39:29
  SPEAKER_02: of opening oneself up to these,
• 1:39:33
  these insights um what would be the proper preparation for that
• 1:39:38
  like what would be
• 1:39:38
  the contemplative skill set that you need to develop what would
• 1:39:41
  be the ethical kind
• 1:39:42
  of way of of relating to oneself and others um and what would
• 1:39:47
  be the helpful ways
• 1:39:48
  SPEAKER_02: of not getting philosophically kind of stuck in forms of
• 1:39:53
  SPEAKER_02: you know, ideology that can be destructive or ego inflation.
• 1:39:58
  SPEAKER_02: And yes,
• 1:40:00
  I developed a 12 month program called a path between worlds
• 1:40:04
  that that kind of tries
• 1:40:06
  SPEAKER_02: to synthesize
• 1:40:12
  some of the key insights and contemplative skills of Buddhism
• 1:40:17
  with the skillful
• 1:40:17
  SPEAKER_02: means of psychedelic sacraments.
• 1:40:21
  And people can find that might be hard to spell,
• 1:40:25
  but maybe you can link people to it.
• 1:40:28
  SPEAKER_02: It's called Upayosis.
• 1:40:29
  SPEAKER_02: And Upaya stands for skill in means, meaning...
• 1:40:36
  the provisional contingent practices that help you realize your
• 1:40:45
  fundamental nature.
• 1:40:46
  And I think psychedelics do skillfully can be one of many ways
• 1:40:54
  of recognizing that.
• 1:40:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I think there are so many conceptual overlays that,
• 1:41:01
  SPEAKER_02: at least for me,
• 1:41:01
  SPEAKER_02: when I grew up in the West,
• 1:41:03
  SPEAKER_02: there were layers upon layers
• 1:41:07
  And what psychedelics can do,
• 1:41:08
  I think,
• 1:41:09
  can give you a glimpse,
• 1:41:10
  like how deep that can go.
• 1:41:12
  SPEAKER_02: And that can allow you then to unpack that.
• 1:41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Big experience is not the goal,
• 1:41:18
  but they can deliver this level of insight that I think can
• 1:41:25
  speed things up and
• 1:41:26
  SPEAKER_02: accelerate.
• 1:41:27
  SPEAKER_02: Not that speeding up is the point.
• 1:41:30
  SPEAKER_02: But at the same time,
• 1:41:32
  there's a lot of unnecessary suffering that can be helped by
• 1:41:36
  the right medicine.
• 1:41:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I think the medicine is conditional and it's conditional upon
• 1:41:44
  the work you do and the courage and honesty developed through
• 1:41:49
  these practices,
• 1:41:49
  but also dependent on the community you're involved with and
• 1:41:54
  the teachers you
• 1:41:54
  SPEAKER_02: engage with.
• 1:41:55
  And so all my main teachers said yes to participate in the
• 1:42:00
  program,
• 1:42:01
  which is awesome.
• 1:42:02
  These are all lineage holders who have practiced or have a
• 1:42:08
  personal practice of
• 1:42:09
  SPEAKER_02: Buddhism and psychedelics for more than decades.
• 1:42:14
  SPEAKER_02: And some of the top research in the field,
• 1:42:16
  SPEAKER_02: like one of my backgrounds is in interdisciplinary science.
• 1:42:20
  And there's a really amazing convergence happening in both the
• 1:42:26
  research of
• 1:42:27
  SPEAKER_02: meditation,
• 1:42:28
  the research of psychedelics and interpretation through the
• 1:42:34
  lens of Buddhism.
• 1:42:35
  SPEAKER_02: So upayosis.com.
• 1:42:38
  SPEAKER_02: You spell it U-P-A-Y-O-S-I-S.
• 1:42:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure Jordan will link to it.
• 1:42:46
  SPEAKER_02: So have a look if this feels resonant.
• 1:42:50
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, thank you for listening.
• 1:42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, beautiful.
• 1:42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely will link to it.
• 1:42:56
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, thank you again so much, Martijn.
• 1:42:59
  SPEAKER_01: Really good to see you and connect again today, brother.
• 1:43:02
  SPEAKER_01: And wishing you all the best.
• 1:43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Take good care in everything.
• 1:43:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for the opportunity.
• 1:43:09
  SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate you and this moment together.
• 1:43:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:43:16
  SPEAKER_02: You're welcome.