Latest / Dadical / 10. Breaking the Cycle: Growing Up Without a Father | Jason Miller

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10. Breaking the Cycle: Growing Up Without a Father | Jason Miller · Dadical

• Seth Stoker: Every once in a while you come across a story of someone who's experienced pain and suffering beyond what even seems bearable. while it's comforting to listen to stories like that and consider how blessed you are after all, or how much harder life could be, it's also sobering to realize that there are droves of people who experience even worse pain and challenges in this life. Unfortunately, that's part of the human experience. Sometimes when you hear of these scenarios, you even start to empathize with why some people might find themselves wondering if continuing on is even worth it. Today's conversation is a special one. I heard the story of Jason Miller, and my biggest takeaway is that no matter how hopeless things may seem in the moment, those moments don't last forever. In fact, if you hang in there, you'll find that redemption, healing, and a life so much greater than you ever could have imagined is waiting on the other side. Jason grew up without a father. He's the product of a one night stand, growing up in an abusive home with no father figure and very few, even positive influences in his life. His grandfather was murdered when he was 10, and he was even the victim of the worst kind of abuse you can imagine by the son of a pastor who took him in. It's easy to see how Jason grew up feeling unwanted and completely unworthy of love. He was lost. And yet Jason shared the story of how he met people who offered him kindness, even though he was, as he described, a difficult kid to love. He somehow stumbled onto a path that led him to faith, resilience, and a determination to change the destructive trajectory that his life was so clearly on. As a husband of 25 years now and the father of two, he's been able to exemplify the thing that he lacked the most early in his life: love. Jason taught me that no matter what we've been through, we've got a choice to define our lives by our victimhood, or we can take charge of who we are destined to become. Jason made the decision to find purpose in the face of all the reasons to assume there's no such thing. You can make that decision too. Stop telling yourself that a few chapters make a novel. You can't choose your circumstances. Jason sure didn't, but you can choose to take control of your story. Several episodes ago, Jordan Phillips taught me that rather than asking, why is this happening to me, we can shift it and ask, why is this happening for me? The reason you'll love Jason and his story is that he did exactly that. And he rewrote his story completely. As fathers, we're not perfect. In fact, fatherhood helps us realize that we're far from it. But you can be the reason that your kids feel love in their lives. You can break the cycle like Jason did and find joy on the other side of your dark days. Remember, this world is better with you in it. Period. Here's Jason Miller. Jason, welcome to Dadicle. How we doing today? Jason: Dude, good brother. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me on. Seth Stoker: Awesome. Yeah, great to have you. In fact, I think the audience is in for a treat today. And you've got an amazing story. And so before we get into all that craziness, I would love to just start out and have you introduce us to you and your fam. Jason: Yeah, my name is Jason Miller. I've been married, it'll be 25 years January. I have two kids. I have a 19-year-old daughter and a soon-to-be 18-year-old son who'll be turning 18 in January as well. We got a lot of things in January. We have a birthday, anniversary. We have two birthdays and an anniversary in January. I'm well, so we wrap in Christmas into some of it. Seth Stoker: That's an expensive month. Nice. Nice. Jason: let's see, I've been I'm a full time pastor. I've been in ministry since 2000, so 26 years as a pastor. Well, mostly as a pastor, youth director, worship director, all that, and then have been the pastor at the church I'm at now for the last nine years, been the lead pastor for the last maybe six years coming up. originally from San Diego, been in the Midwest for twenty nine. Nineteen, nineteen of the last twenty six years. yeah, man, I'm good. Love Jesus, love people. I I also I coach on the side. we have a thing called soul gym dot daily, which is pouring in and helping build resiliency, backbone, and boundaries and started off focusing on dads, which is how you and I actually got connected because I saw your stuff on dads and I was like, dude, I like this guy's stuff. And so yeah, so that's that's me in a nutshell. Seth Stoker: Love it. Love Jason: yeah. Seth Stoker: it. Jason and I actually had a a call a couple of days ago and I felt like, dang, we should have been recording. Like it was it was a great conversation. Jason: Dude, it was so it was so good, bro. It was so good. Seth Stoker: So so I think those that hear where you're at now would never imagine the type of childhood that you had. And so take us back to the beginning, walk us through growing up and and and just tell us what that looked like. Jason: Yeah, well, you're you're right. you know, the there's a couple ways that I I'll start this. Well, one grew up in a single-parent home. My mom never got married. I was the product of a one-night stand. she had an affair with a guy in the military. He was married, had kids. so I've never met my dad. I actually I know who he is, though he denies me, but I did a DNA test 23 in me, and not from him. Interestingly, his nephew. we ended up connecting on twenty-three and me. And 'cause I said, Hey, I'm trying to get to know my biological family. And interesting story there. He had not met his dad, so it would have been either my biological father's brother or uncle. His Seth Stoker: Hmm. Jason: that person left him and he had met him just a few years earlier. So there's like a whole family line Seth Stoker: Wow. Jason: of getting women pregnant apparently and bailing. so my mom never got married, never had a dad in my life. Grew up in a very pretty abusive home. my mom had her own brokenness and stuff that she brought into our family dynamics. was sexually abused by a pastor that took us in. I was not raised in a religious home. My mom was not a Christian, so we didn't really go to church. But in San Diego, we had been taken in by a pastor's family, just kind of loved on us. And at five years old, I got introduced to pornography, which then led to Their youngest son, who is about seven years older than I than I I am, if I remember correctly. That led to sexual abuse that lasted, I'm guessing, anywhere from six months to a little over a year. You know, I was between five and seven when it happened. and and obviously that that kind of messes with you. grandfather was murdered when I was 10. so just I had a really broken childhood. my mom in And I I learned a while ago when it comes to things like trauma, you know, one of the things that we always want to say is, you know, our parents did the best they could. And I'd been working with a spiritual director several years ago. And I shared this with her. And she stopped me and she said, No, she didn't. I said, What do you mean? Of course she did the best she could. And she goes, Did she go to counseling? Did she, did she put you up for adoption? Like I I truly believe I probably should have been put up for adoption. My mom was not equipped. To be a be a mom. and then she said something that for me, now again, I don't know who all your audience is again as a Christian. she said, Jason, your mom has one savior, his name's Jesus, not Jason. And it's not your job to shed your blood for your mom's sins. And literally, when she said that, I just wept. Like I had been told my entire life, you know, your parents do the best they can. And what that does is when somebody's actually had a hard childhood or been through. pretty abusive situation, it's like re-victimizing the person all over again is saying, well, it's not really their fault that they did these horrific things to you. at the same point, what it allowed me to do was to actually bring a different side of forgiveness. So instead of excusing Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: it, being able to say, it doesn't matter if she did the best she could because she didn't, there's you can always do better, right? There are there are always different things that you can do so that you are a healthier, wholer person. Seth Stoker: So Jason, real quick, I'm I'm gonna I'll probably jump in at times just to kind of steer the conversation because Jason: Yeah. Seth Stoker: I I I wanna make sure that we we we hit the notes because Jason: Yeah. Seth Stoker: I mean you just listed off a ton of stuff. We could probably spend an hour on each of the things that you listed off, but I would love to dig in on at the time, I imagine I'd love to hear what you think here. I imagine you probably didn't even realize what you were missing, not having a father in the home. But now you're a dad and and you are experiencing, you know, your kids are experiencing a completely different childhood than you did. So Jason: Yeah. Seth Stoker: tell me what it was like not having a dad in the home specifically. Jason: Yeah. so you know, there are a couple things, and thank you for that. Dude, steer wherever you want to, bro. I want to go where you need to go. So you know, the way that I describe it is this. I mean, I had one, I grew up in a home where and this goes actually does tie in a little bit with what I was talking about before. My mom never said the words I love you. and when I say never, I truly mean never. Like she's apologized for that now. I didn't get held as a kid, like there was no hugging when I was in. When things were difficult, there was some of the things that were missing. And part of it was, and this goes back to the dad thing, in a lot of respects, I was playing functionally a husband, my own father, a child, and then just the man in the house. And and thankfully what I mean by husband, not not in any physical way, but emotionally, I had to play roles that no kid is supposed to play. so that was one of the first things that was hard. Seth Stoker: What does that do to you? a as a kid. Just just I I'm I'm trying Jason: Yeah. Seth Stoker: to put myself in your head space and what does that look like? Jason: Well, I didn't know any different. Like, so I I can actually tell you when I I realized that what I was what I was raised in was not good. So I was 10 years old. We moved to Maine for two years. And I I had a friend of mine, a guy named Danny, and I remember going over to his house and I watched as his parents, like his mom would hug him, they'd say they love each other. But here's the thing that struck me. Danny did something one time that wasn't okay, and his dad disciplined him in front of me. And I don't mean like harshly. I don't mean like he yelled at him. I mean like he actually had like a dad talk with him. And I remember seeing that and going, What what the heck is that about? Because the discipline that I got, like my mom's form of discipline, was telling me how much she hated me. telling me she wished I was dead. Like these were common things. I five years old was the earliest I remember. So Seeing that was the first time I real I realized that I was missing something. Like up until that point, I thought everybody had my experience. I think I shared with you one of the stories that was hard, and and this will tie into an illustration that I use for this as well. my mom had asked some friends of ours to take me on a fishing trip. it was a father-son fishing trip, and so she asked this friend of hers, I don't remember his name anymore. If he'd take me with his son on this father-son camping slash fishing trip with a bunch of other dads and their sons. And when a time the time went to go fishing, he looked at me and he said, Well, I don't have room in the boat for you, sorry. And then he left and I sat there by myself at this campground for about I it felt like all day. It was probably four or five hours while he went fishing with his son. Seth Stoker: And what are you thinking in that four to five hours? Jason: I mean, one, I hated every second of being there. I can still remember that feeling of one, I wasn't wanted at home. I wasn't wanted there. And what it did internally is it it taught me this value that I just wasn't wanted or loved, that nobody had space for me. and and that was so one of the ways that I describe it is like I watched, I had some friends who had wonderful fathers. Now, I also want to be clear. In some ways, because I never had a dad, you can't miss what you never had. It's far harder, I think, when somebody has a dad and that dad is abusive. Like that's that I think that just causes a different pain because you actually know it. You or when you lose a dad, like when your father dies, like you there's a there's an ache there that I can't relate to, right? I also Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Jason: don't have any brothers or sisters. And so I carried this burden alone and and a lot of this pain and nobody really knew what was going on. So the way I describe it is like I would watch, particularly in my teen years, I had some friends whose dads were wonderful people, but they weren't my dad. so I never had the father-son conversations, I didn't have the discipline conversations. And so I likened it to, it's like it's the difference between watching football and playing football. And so growing up, I always felt like I was on the stands. And so I got to watch as other kids got to learn what it meant, what it meant to be loved by a dad. Even and now as an adult, I know that as a kid, no kid wants discipline, right? No kid wants to be disciplined or punished by their parents. But now as a dad, I actually see there's a sacredness when I have to have a hard conversation with my kids, particularly with my son. And where I take those Seth Stoker: Hm. What do you mean by that? Jason: Yeah. So part of being a dad is it's our responsibility to do the best we can to make sure that our kids are prepared for life, particularly our sons are prepared for life. Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Jason: And so there are conversations that I have with my kid that I wish somebody had had with me. Seth Stoker: Like what? Jason: work. What does a good work ethic look like? making good choices, understanding the consequences of our choices. I don't get I'm not an angry person. So like if I ever raise my voice, you know, you know crap has hit the fan pretty hard. It takes Seth Stoker: Okay. Jason: a lot for me to get energized in that way. I'm a pretty not I wouldn't call myself stoic, but I I'm a pretty level person because I grew up in a very unlevel home. And so I I think there is, there's a holy responsibility for us as fathers to have those conversations with our kids to help them learn how to become healthy people. there's a a wonderful quote that I love, and it's all all parenting is is damage control. Like all of our kids are gonna have some damage, it's just how much damage do we wanna leave them with? Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: And and I think most dads, and I really do, I think most dads wanna they want to do better than their parents did for them, just like our parents, for the most part, healthy parents want to do better than their parents did for them, right? and so I I think those hard conversations, instead of being afraid of them, you're our kids don't need best friends. Our kids need people to guide them through life. And and those hard conversations are things that quite frankly, Someone's having them with your kid. The question Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: is, do you want it to be you or someone else? And that someone else may not guide them in the direction you want them to go. Seth Stoker: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, Jason, I I gotta make this observation because you go through your entire childhood not seeing, not being exposed to these difficult conversations, not even understanding how they're supposed to go. And now here you are as a father, you've been married 25 years, you've got a 19-year-old kid, an 18-year-old kid, and clearly you've had a lot of these conversations and you're intentional about how you have them. How on earth did you learn how to have them? Jason: Yeah. you know, some of it, and and I think some of this is where my faith component comes in. one, I don't know people who regardless of where you are in faith, I don't know people who don't have faith or a faith community. I don't know how they go through life. Like truthfully, my my faith community has helped me tremendously. I I think one, I'm I'm somebody who I've taken personal growth very seriously. Because I didn't have things when I when I got into my early twenties, I became an avid reader. And and so I started reading leadership books, theology books. I mean, I just I read and and I was never a big like let's read novels. Now I re I I love reading novel novels. Like I'm reading Dungeon Dungeon Crawler Carl right now. I just got introduced to it. It's a fun book. It you know, not it's not age appropriate for kids, I'll say that. Seth Stoker: Mm. Okay, fair enough. Jason: but Like I I read and I I would purposely seek out people. Like I've always had mentors in my life and I sought them out. Even at at well not always. Once I hit my about 1920, I realized I I didn't have some things. And so I was like, I can't expect somebody else to fix this for me. So I'm gonna do it. And so I've always tried to have people in my life as a as an adult to have people in my life that I can talk to, process with that. Can coach me, mentor me. And so some of those conversations I learned because it wasn't instead of saying, well, I don't know how to play football, I went to a coach and said, Teach me how to throw a ball. Does that make sense? So it's like instead of my Seth Stoker: Yeah. Yeah, it does. Jason: dad doing that, I went to, I had pastors, I had friends, even peers, people I'm like, dude, how would you have this conversation? And other times, and let's just be clear, often some of those conversations came after floundering and royally screwing them up. And going, Yeah, I don't want to do it that way again. Seth Stoker: Well, Jason, I guess so you sought out a lot of mentorship and it it sounds I mean, I think there's a lot of people who wouldn't, right? They would just continue to to tailspin and and we can talk about that a little bit too. But I I'm curious because obviously, since you didn't have your father in your life, and you even mentioned your grandfather being murdered at age 10, I can't imagine. But clearly you sought out mentorship. And so who do you consider to be the most impactful? Whether you want to call it father figure or mentor in your life? Jason: Yeah, some of them were I wouldn't say accidental, but I don't even know that they were intentionally trying to be mentors. I Seth Stoker: Okay. Jason: let me also say this. One of the reasons why I value reading so much and podcast is like, dude, my office is filled with books. Literally all of those are mentors. Those are mentors that I get to spend 20 bucks on and I get to learn from them. but intentional or unintentional. My best friend in high school was a guy named Tim Reese. His dad, Ron Reese, showed me more of what it meant to be a dad than I think anybody else. Seth Stoker: What did he show you? Jason: He had a quiet strength about him. the way he loved his sons. He just died a couple years ago from a heart attack and and I lost touch with them years ago. but when I was a teen, I w they were my safe house. So literally I'd come home from school and once I could drive, I would drive the eight miles over to his house and I'd hang at their house. I'd have dinner at night. and Ron Seth Stoker: Did he know how tough you had it? Jason: they People started to get a sense of it. So most people didn't. And here's the thing, like when you deal with when you deal with people who have mental health issues or narcissism or other things, and and I want to be careful with diagnostic terms. my mom knew how to look like a great mom from the outside. And I didn't tell anybody about the sexual abuse until I was 18. I was I was so embarrassed and ashamed of that and and even how that all came out. was in itself something that was healing but also very hard. I think they started getting a sense of it when and I can still remember the moment I'd gotten a flat tire. And I'm like seventeen, eighteen at the time. And I drive I'm over at their house and I go to leave and my tire's flat and I go to call my mom and she just loses it on me and starts cussing me out, saying all these horrific things. And and Ron grabs the phone and I remember him because he could hear my mom screaming at me. And he he says, You know And out of respect for my mom, I'm gonna avoid saying her name. but basically was like, this it's just a flat tire. It's not like Jason did this intentionally. And he was so calm and yet he came to my defense. And he's like, We'll get it figured out. You don't like you need to chill out. Literally kind of what he did. But I remember doing like cause one of the things that I I desperately wanted growing up was somebody to defend me. Cause Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: I just I felt like I had no I had no one that was coming to my rescue. now and l let me also say my mom and I have a good relationship now. she became a Christian about thirteen years ago. I got to baptize her, which was wonderful. and there's been healing there, but I'll also say There's still like there is a sacred ache inside of me that when I look back on my life, there are things that I just I'm never gonna fully understand. I'm not gonna know what it's like to have a dad. Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: not having any brothers or sisters. I don't know what it's like to have somebody in my corner, my ride or die, so to speak. No, let's be clear. I know plenty of people, again, who have dads and their dads are distant and they don't have great relationships. So I I'm in no illusion. I don't have any romanticized idea that even if I had had that. But I didn't have the opportunity to. So Ron was one of those guys. He showed me. I remember he actually disciplined me one time. And the way he did it, I still remember to this day, is 30, 30 years later, almost 35 years later. I still remember it. I had we were in youth group and I had taken advantage of this guy in our youth group who was special needs and I had asked him to do something just because I was lazy and Ron saw me do it and he goes, Jason, come over here. I walked over Seth Stoker: Mm. Jason: and he goes, What was that? I said, what? And goes, why did you ask him to go get I it was my guitar. He goes, why'd you go ask him to get your guitar? And I said, because I didn't want to get up and do it. And he goes, you just took advantage of him. You owe him an apology. Go get the guitar yourself. And then he said, Jason, I want you to know I'm very disappointed in you, because I know you can do better. And those words, like that was the first time that I probably had ever felt like somebody had had a hard conversation with me that wasn't filled with shame or telling me how much they hated me. It was Like, no, I I know you can do better. Seth Stoker: Yeah, I have an expectation of you. Jason: Yeah, and he did. He had and it wasn't as a son because I wasn't his son. He just and and and I went, and so when I think back about dads that I saw, he was one that was really pivotal. Mentors, a guy named Pear Nielsen, I worked with Pear. He was the lead pastor of a church that I was a teaching pastor at. He's still to this day a mentor, someone I deeply trust and respect. so there another guy named Mike Bradley. You know, some of these guys just had seasons in my life where they showed me kind of a different side of what it means to be a man. Seth Stoker: I just think it's interesting, Jason, as I hear your story. It would be so easy for you to look at some of these kids who have parents in their lives and probably plenty of kids who even take that for granted, right? And it would probably be really easy for you to be super jealous, bitter, life's not fair, and learning that in the hardest way possible. How like what was your mindset at that point? I mean, it sounds like you were, you know, in in high school at that point. Where's your head at? Are you are you bitter? Are you upset? Jealous? Jason: I well, so one, I was in survival. So I like legitimately in my high school years, I was in survival mode. So I don't think I had time to be bitter. because the home environment was so unhealthy, literally, like if I wasn't at home, which was very I tried to not be at home as much as possible. I played basketball eight hours a day. My grades in high school were absolutely atrocious, my freshman and sophomore year. Primarily because I was never home. As soon as I got home I went straight to the basketball court. And if I wasn't at basketball court, I was playing volleyball. If I wasn't there I I was at the church building. If I wasn't there I was at my friend's house. Because the the least safe place for me to be was home. Seth Stoker: Just stay busy. Jason: Stay busy, but but also like that's the thing when you're in survival, you have that that Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? I don't know if you're familiar with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, but you don't have time to think about bitterness when you're just trying to f exist. what I what I think I did struggle with and where that bitterness, and I think there was bitterness there, I just didn't know it. Is I when I became a Christian, I was very arrogant and very unloving. Now I don't think anybody would blame me for being unloving because I didn't have a model of what loved looked like. I had no concept of what it meant to be loving or kind. And I went from this very perverted, broken kid who was, and and I'll be, I don't, you can edit out whatever you want to on this, but like because of the sexual abuse and the pornography, I was this, I had a really twisted mind. And I was super perverted in junior high. I mean, I was dropping F bombs when I was seven years old. Like I cussed like a sailor when I was seven. And I grew up inner city primarily. And so most of my friends did too. So I wasn't the only one who did that. But what here's the funny part is like I didn't know anybody else in my community who didn't have both parents. So even though I grew up in in kind of inner city San Diego in a place called El Cajón, and where we lived in El Cajón was not a very nice area. Everybody I knew had parents. I don't yeah, I don't know that bitterness is the right word. I think I didn't understand. I did have a lot of self pity. That that I for sure had. But it was also because I I wanted I remember The first time I started seeing any level of affection from people, I wanted more of that because I just didn't get it. And again, like that makes sense. Looking back as an adult, you're like, of course this kid's starving for attention because I was starving for attention. Seth Stoker: Right. Jason: But this was in the 80s, early 90s. The response was, well, get over it, move on, like toughen up. And I think part of it is that the average person, they just the church that I was at wasn't equipped for what I was going through. They also didn't ask. They didn't want to know. because again, I think back then it was just eighties, nineties were a different time of parenting. Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: Right? I mean, I remember coming just come in when the lights when it when the lights turn on on the outside and you know, don't try not to get kidnapped by somebody in a van. Like that was that was the goal. Seth Stoker: Yep, different times. Jason: Very much. Seth Stoker: Okay, so you told me on our phone call that you had kind of made a decision or made a deal with yourself about what would happen. I think when you were coming into high school, maybe freshman year. Why don't you tell me a little bit more about that just so we can get an understanding of where your head's at? Jason: Yeah. because of the sexual abuse, I I struggled heavily with sexual identity, massive porn addiction. I mean part of it was just trying to get rid of the images that were in my head. and just being fully transparent, like I would close my eyes and I'd go to bed and I'd have nightmares about what took place. And and when I say abuse, I don't mean like, I mean it was there are words that we're not allowed to say online, but it was it was essay. We'll just say it that way. Because of that, I wrestled with sexual identity. There was a period in there where I thought I might be gay, so I overcompensated. And that's when the porn addiction really, really started taking off because I was trying to deal with these thoughts, these feelings, these memories. And because I didn't feel loved and I didn't know what love looked like going into my freshman year, I had made it kind of a pact with myself before I became a Christian, not knowing I was going to become a Christian, that if I didn't lose my virginity by the end of my freshman year I was gonna kill myself because it meant I wasn't worth loving. and because in my head, and I still remember this in eighth grade, like no girls would date me. And again, this is eighth grade. You're not supposed to date in eighth grade. Like that's what a weird like Seth Stoker: Right. Jason: what does that mean? Now granted, I had a We had a girl in seventh grade who got pregnant. So obviously people were doing adult things when I was in junior high, but but I had made I had this twisted view that if if a girl would not have sex with me, that I obviously was unlovable, and if that was the case, then maybe I should just unalive myself. and that Seth Stoker: Wow. So Jason, in that case, I mean, I'm hearing I'm hearing a sad story, right? If if Jason: Yeah. Seth Stoker: this is the end of the story, then then everybody's gonna be bummed. But but at the same time, like the the there is a huge turning point here where your life starts to change and you don't you don't just stay in that headspace of of victimhood and and and dwelling in the the challenges that you've dealt with, which are not insignificant at all. And so what changed? Jason: Yeah, well, so this is honestly where my faith component comes in. eighth grade, there was a girl named Dawn, who I had a crush on, who I was she invited me to church. Now I'll also say this, one of my first times at church, I literally got beat up. When I say beat up, I mean this kid who was I was a short kid. I'm still a short guy, but this kid probably had a good foot on me and he just pummeled the snot out of me. And I think I think we were in seventh grade for a semester when I was at this junior high. We moved around a lot also because every time the rent went up, we had to move, and so I changed schools a lot. But I went to this youth group, the youth pastor was gone, and this kid literally just decided to beat the snot out of me, and all the youth group leaders stood around while he just pummeled me. And my friend's mom actually had to pull the kid off me and she drove me home. And so that was one of my first real encounters at at church. So Dawn, because I had a crush on her and and again my my motivations, let's say, were less than pure. Dawn was a very grace-filled person. She invited me to her youth group at a First Baptist Church in Al Cahone. And I went, but the reason why I went was maybe she'll like me and she'll have sex with me. That's what was going through my head. Like that was my motivation. She didn't like me that way. And I was there about three months when all the girls in the youth group surrounded me and said, We don't like you. You're not welcome here. Please leave. And uninvited me to church. and so I was like, dude, I'm done. Like this church stuff is faith stuff is stupid. Like I'll just go on with my life. And and Dawn continued to show kindness to me. And let me be clear, I was a hard kid to love. Like I was a really obnoxious kid, but I was also a very broken kid. And so yeah yeah hearing the story, of course, you're like, of course you're broken. Like look at look at your dynamics. There's a reason for that. But kids don't know how to process through that kind of stuff. And this was again a different time. No one was asking. I I can almost guarantee you by today's standards, I probably would have been taken out by child protective services given some of the environmental stuff. so Dawn going into freshman year that summer, she said, Why don't you come to high school groups? And I said, no, it's okay. And she goes, Well, you do it for me. And I'm like, okay. Because she was cute. And and I went. And the youth pastor was a really kind. In fact, he was the first person that I can recall ever saying the words, I love you. This guy named Tim. And it threw me for a loop. Like I didn't, I didn't know what to do with that statement. And we were, I I kid, and again, the kids were horrific to me. But I'll I also want to be clear, instead of playing the victim, like I was not an easy kid to like. Like I was a very, when I say obnoxious, I mean I was over the top. I I didn't know how to have relationships. I didn't know what a good social interactions look like. And Don continued to be very kind to me. And then during the summer that July 1989, they had a Bible study that went all week. And we went over to this guy named Rod's house. They had a swimming pool and tennis courts and the whole bit. And he asked if anybody wanted to. To become a Christian and my hand went up and I was like, whoa. And that kind of began my journey. Now, I'd love to say that the minute I became a Christian, everything changed. No, it didn't, because I was still, I still had the trauma, the brokenness, all those things. but that started it. And I think that that rescued me from making what could have been a horrific decision. Now, whether or not I would have gone through with it, I don't know. But the fact that that existed in my mind at all. Like that was that was the precipice is I'm not worth living if someone won't have sex with me. Seth Stoker: And this is to to be clear, this is during that year. So this all happens in that year that you had made that Jason: Yeah. Seth Stoker: decision. Jason: Yeah, that happened freshman, going into freshman year. I'd made the decision in eighth grade, end of eighth grade. I had I had asked several girls to be my girlfriend, whatever that meant. They'd all said no. And literally in my brain, what what I what I heard that as is you're just not worth loving. You know, again, I confused what love was. That's that's that's a poor facsimile of love, but that's what 13, 14-year-old Jason associated love with. So when when I became a Christian, it was like God got a hold of my life, but that didn't heal everything. In fact, I I've you and I talked about this during our first call. I I've had a lot of times people want to give all the credit to God. God did all these things. No, I've had to do a lot of work. I and and for sure, for sure, the I've my faith has carried me through a lot of stuff. But I think sometimes what ends up happening with individuals who come with trauma is they just expect that, you know, when you have faith, everything just works out and you'll be better. Nope, there's work to be done. And and this is why, you know, like so who I am as a pastor, as a father, as a husband, as a man, I I would never wish my childhood on anybody. But I don't, I'm grateful for all of it. Because every single one of those things shaped me to become the man. The father, the pastor, the husband that I am. And so instead of seeing it as a victim, I I've watched it as God has redeemed those things. And every single, and I, and I I kid you not, every single one of those traumas I've now been able to use to walk beside individuals who've gone through similar things. So I went through things that the average person doesn't go through. Now, let me also be clear, there are people who've been through far worse. And this is why I don't like comparison, because I like to Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: say your worst day is still your worst day. So when people are like, Jason, I didn't have it as bad as you, it doesn't matter. Like, dude, we've all got stuff we're going through. And I had students when I was a youth pastor, I had students that would be like, My life looked cake. Like my life, I they would have paid to have my my trauma. Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: but that being said, you have choices to make. And I made choices in my twenties that I just said essentially, I'm not, I'm not gonna choose to let my past dictate, let my where I came from dictate who I want to become. But that doesn't mean I got there quickly or easily or without a lot of struggle and failure. And so in a lot of ways, like when I was 30 years old, I felt like I knew teenagers who were more mature than I was in a lot of life skills. In Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Jason: fact, I didn't really feel like I started understanding what it meant to be a mature adult until my 40s. Which I also be clear, I think I know a lot of forty and fifty year olds who still think that and had great childhoods because growing up is hard. so there's no. Seth Stoker: Yep. Well, Jason, sorry, I'm I'm gonna jump in here real quick because I think I think there's plenty of young dads who grow up broken, go through challenges and things like that, and all of a sudden get thrown into fatherhood, whether whether intentionally or or even you know, Jason: Yeah. Seth Stoker: plenty by accident and things like that, all of a sudden I've got this huge responsibility, right? And I guarantee e even Even when it's intentional, I guarantee every single young father goes through a period where they're thinking, How on earth am I supposed to be good enough to raise this kid and be trusted with this kid and fulfill these responsibilities? I think you've got a unique position to speak to them. So so what would you what do you say to a young dad who's like, I am in no way prepared for this? Jason: Yeah. well, so the first lie is no one's ever prepared for it. Seth Stoker: Right. Jason: That's that's the first lie. it's like the number of people, okay, so again, being in ministry, being a pastor, I've done weddings and when I meet people like, we don't want to have kids until we're ready. Dude, you're never ready to have a kid. Seth Stoker: You'll never have Jason: Yeah, you'll never have them. And in fact, if you're ever think you're prepared, you're gonna once you have a kid, you're gonna realize how ill prepared you were. Because okay, so like for instance, my kids are both on the autism spectrum. So we've had health issues with my kids. And they're very, they're very high-functioning autism, but I wasn't prepared for that. and and someone, you know, sometimes the worst things that people can say when somebody's going through hard things, and this is where people of faith, sometimes we say the stupidest things as people of faith. Well, God gives us hardest challenges to his toughest warriors. And I'm like, then God's an idiot, because there are far tougher people than me, right? And Seth Stoker: Yeah. Yep. Jason: and And so like there are instead of looking through the lens of I'm not prepared or I'm not good enough, become the man that you your kids need you to be, not just the kids you want them to be or that that they want you to be. But that's a choice. And so that's and then that's everybody's. Now there are some people who start up with a a more maybe along a bigger foundation, a greater foundation. So they're being a father is maybe a little bit more natural to them. They don't go through the same struggles. But that doesn't mean they were prepared because any number of things can happen into life. And so when I walk besides, particularly like let's be clear, it's harder to get a driver's license than it is to have a kid. Seth Stoker: Yeah, yeah, y well, it it depends. To to raise a kid or just to have a kid. Yeah, exactly. yeah. Jason: Just to have a kid. Just to have a kid. It it's biology. That get now I don't want to make light of individuals that struggle to have children, right? But but it doesn't like having a kid is easy. Raising a kid is hard. And and I think there are some people who this is also why I I wish people would understand that fatherhood is a a ho a high and holy calling. there there is something holy to fatherhood. but you're the only dad that your kid is supposed to have. And now life happens. I grew up without a dad, but I was supposed to have my dad in my life. That that's how it's supposed to be, as I'm supposed to have that male figure. That's how it's supposed to be. That's not always how it is, right? Some dads get sick, they die. Some dads have their own traumas that they don't deal with. But if you start recognizing, like, no, you've been entrusted. You've been entrusted with these these souls, these these children. Take that seriously, but then also give yourself a lot of grace and recognize, like, dude, you're gonna make mistakes, which is why you surround yourself, which is part of the reason why, like the Soul Gym stuff. the reason why we started Soul Gym, Soul Gym.daily, was because I'm like, man, these are all things that I wish somebody had taught me when I was a new dad or when my kids were younger. My kids are older now, and I look back and go, man, I I probably would have done this differently. And I think most. most parents feel that way looking back 'cause there's always things that you could do better. Seth Stoker: Well, I always say nothing makes you more aware of your faults and your weaknesses than parenthood. It's just it's just a fact. And Jason: Dude. Seth Stoker: so I love I love what you're saying. What really resonates with me is is when you talk about making a choice. Because I I think about growth in general. And and I th like my son, my my son played high school basketball and You know, if he never played basketball or or never played again, let's actually I got a better story for you. Okay. Jason: Ha ha. Seth Stoker: I so when I was in high school, I I ended up wrestling my junior and senior year. Now I I loved playing basketball and things like that. I was never good enough to play on the high school team. But I had some buddies who were on their way to wrestling tryouts and they're like, Hey, Seth, you coming to wrestling tryouts with us? And I'm like, Well, sure, I guess. Next thing I know, I you know, I I wrestled JV my junior year. And then my senior year, my my weight class didn't really have like a great wrestler. So I definitely had an opportunity to win the varsity spot. And I think my coach recognized that like we're gonna we're gonna have to figure it out with Seth because we don't we don't have a lot of other options at this weight. And so anyway, I would go into wrestling practice and I would wrestle the guys I knew I could beat every day. I would just like it, it just wasn't a big deal. I wasn't pushing myself and things like that. And And anyway, my coach came up to me one day out of the blue. He he grabbed me out of the guy that I was I was wrestling with and he walks me over to a good friend of mine that I avoided on purpose because he was a state champion wrestler that year. And he said, This is your wrestling partner from now on. You will wrestle him every single day until this season's over. And I I Jason: That's a good coach. Seth Stoker: did, great coach. And I got my butt kicked every single day. But you know what? I got so much better, Jason. I got so much better. And not I I never became any kind of crazy. I I took third in region, which was good enough for me. I I it was way better than I would have expected of myself, especially just picking it up. But I think I think the point for me is, is there is zero growth in the comfort zone. If you sit and wrestle the guy you know you can beat every day, you're not gonna get any better. And I think about these dads who are like, I'm not up for this challenge. I'm not up for this responsibility. And you know what? The fact of the matter is, too late. You're already in it. Jason: You're in it. You're in it, man. Seth Stoker: But you have an opportunity to grow. You can become the man that you need to become. You can become the man that your kids need you to become Jason: Yes. Seth Stoker: by making that choice and stepping up, regardless of what's happened in the past. You could have screwed up the first 30 years of your life, whatever, doesn't matter. You can be special. by taking on this responsibility. And I just wish, I wish some of these young dads who feel intimidated by this responsibility understood what this can unlock for them. Jason: Yeah. Well, and and let's be clear, I actually like that they're intimidated by it because it means they understand there's a seriousness. Seth Stoker: Yes. Jason: What what we lack in our culture today is courage. And we we lack a backbone, we lack curiosity, and we lack courage. And I think a part of that is because we we've trained an entire generation that resilience doesn't matter. And so when all of a sudden things like becoming apparent happen, dude, first of all, Your kid didn't choose to be born. And I and here's why I want to say that. When when a parent sees being being a parent as a burden, as if it's something that happened to them, they've already put their kid into a position where that kid now has to earn their place to be loved. Your kid never asked to be born. You made a choice, and now here's the thing: ready? Courage says, well. How do I make sure that I love this kid as best as I can so that that kid knows they don't need to earn that love? They deserve that love because they didn't ask to be born. Now, here's a cool, you you probably already know this. Did you know that in the ancient world, in the Roman and the Roman Empire, adopted children had greater rights than natural-born children? Seth Stoker: Really? Jason: You could not disown an adopted child, but you could disown a natural child. And the reason is is an adopted child was chosen. Now, here's the point, and this is their I think this is the challenge here. Your kids didn't choose you. You could say you didn't choose them, but they're yours. And how do you make sure that that kid knows that they don't have to have an orphan spirit? That kid doesn't need to grow up believing that they're a burden to you. They you need to show them that the blessing that they are, because part of that blessing is they're going to help you grow into who you're supposed to be. And that's what that's what fatherhood has the potential to unlock, as you talked about. But what ends up happening is we get these immature men. Who either weren't shown it or who were coddled or who out of their own fear or are told that your feelings are the only thing that matter. And as a result of that, what they're doing is they're raising a generation, they're raising children with an orphan spirit who are teaching their kids. And and I wanna be clear, here's the other side of that. going back to those hard conversations, dude, your children need to know that they're not the center of your life. Cause that's the other problem. I see a w I see a lot of parents who they have kids and they make their kids the center of their life and their family. And it's like, no, no, no. You know what the most loving, and I'm gonna tell you, okay, dads, if you're listening, any dads that are listening is right now, you wanna know how to teach your kid how to be a man? Love your wife well. Love their mother well. Show them that their mothers matter their mother matters more than they do. And that feels so counterintuitive because our culture is suddenly, no, no, no, everything has to be about your kids. No, you wanna raise kids. who understand security, who are secure in who they are, have a good self self-awareness, self-esteem. Dude, you love their mom. You show them that their mom is the most important person in your life, not them. And what that'll do for your kids is your kids are going to feel grounded because what kids want is stability. We think what they want is freedom to do whatever they want and to have all these experiences. So we got to shuttle our kids to all these different sporting events and we got to make sure they have all the experiences. One of the things that I heard, I did a video on this a few months ago. We're so afraid of letting our kids be bored. Because then I had I had somebody say, Well, I want my kids to have what I missed out on. Like, what did you miss out on? Like, what Seth Stoker: Exactly. Jason: what did what did you miss out on that you think your kids are missing? Like, well, I never got to go travel ball. I never travel. I'm like, yeah, did you turn out okay? Like, that's a pretty amazing thing. But you look at you wanna see who the most resilient kids are. It's the ones whose Dads and particularly, there's tons of research that shows the role of dads whose dads model for them that they are not the center of their universe. And that Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: they show their kids that know your mom, who I love deeply, I'm gonna I'm gonna show you what it means to be a man by how I love your mother. And that's been, yeah. Seth Stoker: Jason, I have to imagine you growing up without a father in the home and having the experiences that you have or that you did have. It has to be a huge temptation for you to make them the center of your universe and be like, okay, so how how how have you balanced that? Because I could see totally falling into that trap. Jason: Yeah. No, actually there's not even a remote balance. so one, I I learned a long time ago, my children cannot become my identity. nor can my wife. My identity Seth Stoker: Tell me more. Jason: yeah, my my your identity has to come from something outside of you. Because when your identity is connected or attached to something that you could lose, and I'm gonna say something that's hard. I've walked besides parents who've by parents who've lost their children. And I pray that never happens to any dad. and you know, I I think I told you we've had some health issues with my daughter. That that was the most real I've ever felt. And my my daughter became the center of our world for about two years just 'cause we're trying to get her healthy. But anytime your identity is attached to something that you can lose, you will cling to that and you will make it something it was never intended to be. And I learned that at a very young age, partly because I just didn't have anything to cling to other than my identity in Jesus. and so my identity isn't found in my job. My identity is not found in my wife. Now, one before I was before I became a Christian, my identity was Am I lovable? Will someone have sex with me? But that's that was a that was an immature childish way, but I know adults who still think that way. my identity is not tied to my paycheck, my identity is not tied to my wife, my identity is not tied to my children. And here's why when your identity gets tied to your children. Now you make idols or little gods out of your children, and children are horrible little gods. they're not meant to be little, they're not meant to be little gods. They're they're not. Seth Stoker: That's a good way to put it. Yeah. Jason: In fact, when you do that, have you ever heard this quote that we're not built for fame? Have you ever heard that quote before? There's a reason why how many healthy, famous people do you know? They're not, but Seth Stoker: None. Although I don't know any famous people, but Jason: I know a couple, and they're all jacked up. All of them. Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: They're they're all that you're not built for fame. When you make your child the center of your universe, you are making them famous in your family. And they're not built for that. Seth Stoker: Love that. I I love all that. So you so you you you keep them grounded, you you show them that you love your their mom and that models the relationship for them. It's so funny, Jason. I've laughed about this because this has come up the the theme of loving their mother has come up in every single episode, no matter what the story is. And you know what, you couldn't be more right. I I I think that is just a principle that is undeniable, that you have to show them how to love mother. Jason: And it's not unique to me. Like, so I told you about Ron Reese. Ron, like, I watched the way he loved his wife. And I went there and I'm like, that's what that's supposed to look like. Now I don't love my wife perfectly. Let's be clear. I'm a human being. I I there are times that I'm like, yeah, I probably could have done that better, right? But the best thing I can do is show my children they have a stable home, their home's not going anywhere. the most important relationship in my life, apart from my relationship with God, is my relationship with my wife. And here's the other part is you know, I've walked beside couples, and now again, this is the the rarity of my position. I've walked beside couples who made their children the center of their household, and when their children graduated, they functionally were just roommates. And their kids saw that. And you know what? You then trained your kids to do the same thing to their spouses. Seth Stoker: Exactly. Exactly. Jason: So we're we're always training something and we're always being trained by something and we're always training someone. So your children are watching you, they're being trained by you. And they're you're don't get me wrong, I I train poorly. Like we all do, right? And that's that's part Seth Stoker: Sure, we all do. Yeah. Jason: of the beauty of recognizing that like there's no perfect parents. But that doesn't mean that I just surrender and I give up and I go, well, it can't be a perfect parent, so who cares? No. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do everything I can to be as healthy as I can. Notice I didn't say the best I can because I don't like that term the best. Seth Stoker: Right. Right. Jason: I wanna be as healthy as I can be. I want to be the healthiest father, husband, man that I can be, because I don't think you can ever be the best. I I think that that's that's such an unattainable thing, and it leads us ultimately to a shame-based theology or shame-based belief. I wasn't my best. But I want to be the healthiest I can be, and I can always be healthier. Seth Stoker: Yep. Yep. Exactly. So what else have you been deliberate about teaching your kids? Jason: Well so I f I felt bad about this. I've had to have some hard conversations around like Okay, I'm gonna share that. Yeah. So, like, my my daughter for a while had a very healthy sense of esteem in in her abilities. And sometimes they were overshooting reality. So, like one day, and I felt like such a jerk parent. I really did, I'm not gonna lie. Like, my we would watch America's Got Talent, and they'd have this, you know, here's this. 12 year old prodigy getting up playing guitar who's got this amazing voice. And my daughter would go, I'm better than her. And I'd have to go, sweetheart, I love you. No, you're not. No, I'm I could totally win this. I'm like, okay. Like, so people are like, no, you need to let them think they can do the impossible. I'm like, okay, there's doing the impossible and then there's lying to your children. I I think there's a healthy balance. So one day my daughter and I are walking, and Seth Stoker: Okay. Jason: this is this is gonna play up. My w my daughter walking, she turns to me and she's she's like twelve, thirteen years old. So this is like seven years ago, six years ago. And she's tears in her eyes and she goes, You hate my voice. You don't think I'm an awesome singer? And I said, I didn't say that. She goes, Well, you never tell me how awesome I am. And and she goes, And every time I ask you if you think I'm a great singer, you don't you don't tell me yes. And I said, Okay, let's stop for a second. Said, this is the question you ask me. You don't ask me, Do you think I'm getting better? Am I growing? You ask, Do you I think you're the best singer in the world? Those are the that's what she is. Do you think I'm better than that person? Well, if you're not better than that person, I'm not serving you by telling you yes. And I said, But if you ask me, Dad, do you think I'm improving? Yeah. Dad, do Seth Stoker: Bingo. Jason: you think, do you think that I'm I'm working hard? Yeah. And I said, here's why now she still got tears in eyes. And I said, here's the thing. You ask me a question I can't answer honestly. That's not being a loving parent. I said, but here's what you're going to realize that when I actually do tell you you're good at something, you're going to believe me. Seth Stoker: Right. Jason: And so one day, She had she had sung a solo and it was the best she'd ever sounded. And I said, I want to let you know you sounded so good and I could tell the work you put in and you sounded wonderful. And she looked at me and she goes, I get it now. She goes, because she realized she's like, Seth Stoker: That's so good. Jason: she's like, I I understand now. Like now I know when you when you compliment me. I just had this conversation yesterday. Okay. So my daughter just started driving, which is in itself a little bit of a a huge thing. Bought her own car and within two weeks of driving was in a really difficult position in parking and ended up hitting this woman that was parked. And I'll I'll be honest, I don't think my daughter was at fault. small parking lot, the person parked in the wrong places, but we had to pay the damages because we didn't want to do it through insurance, right? Well it's like thirty six hundred bucks. And I'm like, we don't have thirty six hundred bucks and we couldn't do it through insurance. So we had to put it on a credit card and and so we're like, you know, my I said, babe, you're gonna have to pay this back. You're gonna have to, you're have to pay this because we can't afford this. Well, she's working two jobs, and in less than a month, she's given us $1,000. And I went up to her last night and I said, Hey, I just want to let you know how proud I am of you. And she looks at me and she goes, Why? And I said, Because instead of just doing the bare minimum, you are honoring us by trying to pay off this debt quickly because you don't one want to be in debt, but two, you also realize the hardship it puts on us. And I'm proud of you because it would be really easy for you just to go, well, here's 50 bucks, here's a hundred bucks, and take three years. She's like, No, I want to get out from underneath that. And I said, And that's why I'm proud of you. And she said, Thank you. And I'm like, so those are lessons like the fact that my 19-year-old daughter could make a decision to just take the easy way. No, she's taking money, she's loving tattoos right now. She's gotten like five. And I'm like, Okay, you're an adult. Like you can get like whatever. Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: So that's what you want to do. But Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Jason: like she just Lisa just came up and she said, Yeah, she just gave us a check for six hundred bucks. And I'm like, that's money that she could have spent on any number of other things and she chose to be responsible with it. Seth Stoker: It's so cool to see your kids take on responsibility. Like, like to seek out and take on responsibility. I love that. Jason: Yeah. and it's and you know, like so I you know, my son's not quite there yet. We're Seth Stoker: Ha ha Jason: still working on that one. but like isn't that I I I hope I hope that's the desire of every dad is I want my kids to have success where I didn't. I want them to learn from my mistakes early on and to be a better version of me and still be them. I don't You know, people have asked me, it must be really hard for them to live in in a pastor's shadow. And thankfully I I'm in a great church. They don't expect my kids to be perfect. I don't have like there's no expectations on my kids that they need to function or act a certain way. And and that's not always the case when you're in ministry. Like I'm in a very high profile position. And my kids are allowed to be kids. And so like I don't expect my kids to live underneath my shadow. another one of my favorite quotes. is I want my kids to shan' stand on my shoulders, not my toes. Seth Stoker: Like that. Jason: And and so I I want I want my ceiling to be their floor. Seth Stoker: Mm-hmm. Jason: And and I realize they're they're gonna make mistakes and they're gonna they're gonna have to learn some things and I can protect them from some things, but what I don't have to do is protect them by lying to them about things that are just gonna set them up for failure. Which I'm just gonna say I think is part of our cultural problem is we tell kids what they want to hear, not what they need to hear. Yo, dads Seth Stoker: What do you mean? Jason: dude. The num like I'm sorry, Mike, when a if a kid wants to come and say, I'm a kitten, no you're not. Like if you're five and you're a cat, that's cool. Be a be a cat at five years old. When you're seventeen, you're like I'm a cat. No, you're not. You're not a cat. You're a human being. Act like a human being. Seth Stoker: So you know what, I'm gonna I'm gonna jump in, Jason, because I I've had I've had similar thoughts. I think the biggest lie that the world tells you is you're perfect just the way you are. It's such a lie. Because Jason: it's such a lie. It's such a lie. Hundred percent. Seth Stoker: because you can be so much more, but if everybody just tells you, hey, you don't need to change it all, you're perfect. Like then then then you don't grow. And and I just I I hate that. I think it's such a limiting thing that we impose on people. By telling them they're perfect? You're not perfect. Nobody's perfect. You got work to do. Jason: No. Seth Stoker: Go do it. Jason: And in fact, one okay, so to this, to this point, when people say, I want somebody who loves me just the way I am, are you kidding? I want people who want more for me. I want people Seth Stoker: No you don't? Yes. Jason: who want more for me as a man, as a husband, as a father, as a friend. So if you're just, if you're looking at me going, I just love you the way you are, then you're not a good friend. Seth Stoker: Bingo. Jason: Love me enough to challenge me to help me rise to be something more than I am. Because we're until I die, I'm always capable of growing. So dude, Seth Stoker: That's exactly right. Jason: bro, like. This is why when you and I talked the first time, like you and I, man, I if we were closer we would be bros. Well, we can still be bros over distance, but Seth Stoker: We'll we'll be pen pals. Jason: We'll be pen pals. Seth Stoker: here. So I've got two more questions for you, that that I wanna make sure we get in. Number one is is as someone who grew up without a father in the home, like But button up your message for dads. Like help us understand the impact that dads can have and and Jason: Yeah. Seth Stoker: just your thoughts in general. Jason: Yeah. someone's gonna parent your kid, let it be you. Seth Stoker: What do you mean? Jason: That's good. The world wants to parent your children and tell them who they're supposed to be. And you've been entrusted to be the one to help them become that. But that means you need to be as healthy as you can be. You need to make sure that your identity is secure. It doesn't mean you don't have insecurities. It doesn't mean that you don't have things that you're working through. Your kids don't need a perfect parent, but they do need a present one. And so there are no perfect dads. Zero. every dad has issues. It's just the the reality of what we bring in. Get rid of the language that I'm doing the best I can because what that becomes is a limiting belief of growth. And and recognize that who you surround yourself matters, which is why I love what you're doing here, Seth, man. I love that you are building a community of dads who want to grow. And the more surround yourself with men who have elements that you're like, I want to be like that. I I I one the things that I teach people that I mentor and coach is the three levels of five. So you have the five people above you that if you ever got to spend an hour with them, what questions would you ask them? So five people above. Five people that if you had five minutes that you would, or if you had an hour with them, you like, I got five questions, man. And so who are the five people, right? You have the five people who deserve the most attention in your life, and those are the ones who you should be closest to. Make sure that they're worth having in your five. And then you need five below you. You need five people that you can invest in because you might be somebody's person that they're like, if I could just get an hour with him. Now here's the cool part. I want to be the kind of person that someone in my top five wants me to be in their middle. I want to be the kind of man that somebody and that I look up to, when they look at me, they're like, dude, I want that guy in my corner. And so who we surround ourselves matters, including with dads. And so, dads, you are the sum of the closest five relationships in your life. And so if you want to know who you're going to be like as a father, look at the fathers you hang out with. If they're deadbeat dads, guess what you're going to become? Deadbeat Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: dad. If they're dads who want more, Because here's the other part. Like it like attracts like. And so it's not a coincidence, Seth, that you and I got connected because we both have similar hearts. You are people that are drawn to you are often the greatest reflection of you. And so, men, as a dad, model for your children what it means to be a good man by the people you surround yourself with. And that includes other dads who you want to be like, but also who bring the best out in you and you bring the best out in them. Seth Stoker: Jason, I think your story is such a great example of the importance of that bottom five that you highlighted. Because I think every dad who has children with with friends, like ever every single dad has kids who have friends or know people that may not be in as good of a family situation as you are or whatever. And the impact that you can have by reaching out and and Providing that mentorship or just even an olive branch to these kids who need that so badly. Like I I just think about you watching or being disciplined by Ron. And you know, a lot of kids they get disciplined and they're like, well, Ron's a jerk, you know, or or whatever. And for you, you're like, hallelujah. Like somebody is guiding me. And I think, yes, yes. Jason: And I didn't even know it in the moment. I I knew that I cared because I knew he cared about me. But I like I I didn't no one cherishes discipline in the moment. Seth Stoker: No. Jason: No one's like, I love being disciplined. But looking back, that was the most loving thing he could have done for me. Seth Stoker: Jason, the fact of the matter is is that is that there's probably people in each of our sphere of influence right now that we can have that kind of an impact on. And Jason: Yes. Seth Stoker: as dads, we're so I think tunnel vision on our kids. This is the work I got to do for our kids. And I had a really good friend in high school whose dad w hadn't been around for a long time. And I remember how big of an impact my dad had on him. And I'm telling you. I I think it's so cool that you shared that with us because y not only can you impact your kids and not only is that important, but man, how cool is it to be able to be Ron in in your Jason: And Seth Stoker: story. Jason: and if I can also tell you, you don't have to actually have children to be a great spiritual father. Seth Stoker: Great point. Jason: Like that's the other lie is some people I know men who were built to be dads that could never have kids. And there are for right now, I think the latest statistic is one in four kids don't have a dad in the home. I think that's the most recent statistic I read. One in four kids. and now we also have a culture that says, well, you don't need a dad in the home. Well, not if he's a deadbeat dad, but every kid needs a father. And so If you have somebody in your life and and also look past, like, you know, that I think of Aladdin, the diamond in the rough, right? Seth Stoker: Yeah. Jason: the thing that's very few people were willing to look past my brokenness. And Ron did. Ron, Ron loved me in a way. They had me at family dinners and and I again, I was not an easy kid to be around. And they didn't fully understand. And so sometimes the most loving thing you can do is to make yourself available. You know, there are parts of my story I didn't get to share, you know, the the closest thing I had to what could have been like a father figure when I was a kid ended up unaliving himself when I was seven. and he was the one who took me in my first basketball or my first baseball game, took taught me how to throw a football. I still remember we went to Fox and the Hound. It was the last movie I saw with him. and you don't know somebody's story. And sometimes the most obnoxious kids are the ones who are the most desperate to be loved and to need a male role model. Let me also say this there are plenty of young daughters who need to be shown healthy, loving affection from a male figure that can show them. Because here's the other part. our daughters will find when there's a loving father in the home, daughters are more likely to value themselves and not allow a young man to take advantage of them. or to treat Seth Stoker: Bingo. Jason: them poorly. And so what what do you do when you have fathers or when you have daughters who don't have loving fathers? Did I say that daughters with loving fathers? Yeah. so you don't have to be you don't have to have kids to be a great father figure. Seth Stoker: Jason, I got I got a quick hitter for you. 50 years from now, I have your kids on the Dadical podcast to ask them about you, okay? What do you want, what do you hope your legacy is? Jason: My dad loved Jesus, he loved us, and he loved people. That's it. 'Cause that's the center of everything, man. At at the heart of everything that I want people to I want people to experience the love that I didn't. And it starts with my love for Jesus. I'm I'm unabashedly about that. and regardless, I know there are people who are probably watching this that aren't Christian, and that's okay. Like I don't that doesn't I don't care about that. But for me, I want people to know that they're that God's crazy about them, that they're worth loving. And I I want my kids to look back and say, in that order, actually, here would be the order. My dad loved Jesus, he loved my mom, he loved us, and he loved people. That order. not loved his work. I don't I don't care about that. I don't want to think if they think I love my work more than I love them, I I did something wrong. so that that would be my legacy. Seth Stoker: That's great. Well, Jason, it has been an absolute pleasure to have you. Thanks so much for joining us today. Jason: Thank you, Seth man. What a privilege to be here. Seth Stoker: Jason, thank you for being willing to share your story today. So cool to see somebody coming out on the other side of such a tough upbringing. Here's what I want to leave you with. Jason did not choose the childhood that he had. He didn't choose the pain, the abandonment, or the people who were supposed to protect him and didn't. But he chose what came next. And that choice made him the husband, the father, and the man that I got to chat with today. You have that same choice, regardless of what your story looks like so far. If you or someone you know is struggling, help is available. Call or text 988 if you need it. New episodes are going to air every Wednesday on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Share this one with someone who needs to hear it. And if you know a dad with a story worth telling, reach out at dadiclepodcast.com. Don't sleepwalk through fatherhood. Be daddy.