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From the NFL to Redemption: Jeff Hatch’s Recovery Story · Finding New Waters

• 0:00
  My, my alcoholism during this time was ever present and ever
• 0:04
  morphing. I was always trying to find a
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  way to get the spiritual salve that I needed from alcohol and
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  drugs, but also maintain my capacity to be successful at a
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  highland. What's really sad about it is
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  that I was actually basically, I was passed out on the couch.
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  You know, I was, I was high the whole time and I got roused by
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  the call and you can see me like, you know, you can see me
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  sleep and and you know, great excuse.
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  I'm tired and it's been a long process and all the stuff.
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  But really, I was loaded man. All right.
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  Good morning, everybody. Welcome to another edition of
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  Finding New Waters. My name is Bea Reeves.
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  I'm the Director of Business Development here at New Waters.
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  And our very special guest today is Jeff Hatch.
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  And Jeff, I met about four years ago in Atlanta and then
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  reconnected with him in Seattle like 4 days ago or so.
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  And he's recently joined some friends of ours who one's been
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  on the program at Eagle Creek Ranch Recovery in Idaho.
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  And I just wanted to say special welcome and thank you for being
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  here, Jeff. Thank you for having me, Bea
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  Reeves. I'm grateful to be here with
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  you, man. Yeah, excited to talk to you.
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  Yeah, when I first met you, I mean, somebody told me that, you
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  know, introduced me to you and they're like, you know, he
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  played in the NFL. And so Jeff, I mean, I, I'm sure
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  you're sick of talking about it, but you know what, I don't
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  really care 'cause we want to hear about it.
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  And so Jeff was an NFL player, played college at the at Upenn
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  and, you know, now he's been in our field for about the same,
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  about the same amount of time I have about 5 years.
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  Is that about right? Well, I actually started, I
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  stepped away for a minute, but I actually started.
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  The first time I started working in the field was really shortly
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  after I retired and went to treatment.
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  I mean, the shocking story in our business, right?
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  I got hired by the place I went to treatment at and that was
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  actually way back in 2006. Oh wow.
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  OK. And then like I said, I kind of,
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  I was there for a while, faded, faded away from the field for a
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  minute and then, you know, came back probably about that time
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  about five years ago. OK, cool.
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  Well, from what I've, you know, what we talked about and you're
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  one of those people where like I start talking and then I
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  realized I would love for you to be on the podcast.
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  I'm like, I'm all right, I'm just going to not talk to him
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  again until we do this. So I it's true because I don't
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  respect, you know, I don't want to waste it all.
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  And so, and you know, I did some cursory research, so I just, we
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  want to hear from you, man. This is about you.
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  This isn't about us. But so just, you know, lay it
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  on. It's like, how did you, you
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  know, tell us about your career and how it led to you getting
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  sober and getting into the field and all that?
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  Yeah. Yeah.
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  Well, I think first of all, I appreciate that it keeps it way
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  more organic if we haven't talked about this 14 times
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  before we get on here to do this.
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  So I appreciate that. And you know, I mean, I'm a guy.
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  I would say I'm, I'm, I'm a typical person with alcoholism
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  in the sense that when I trace it back, I think I was probably
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  born wrestles irritable and discontent.
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  You know, I found my medicine at 13 with alcohol, but I was, I
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  was sharp enough at the time to know that there would be a time.
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  This is my thought at the time. I'll achieve enough stuff.
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  Third dimensionally material plane that I will no longer feel
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  this way about myself and I won't have to to drink alcohol
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  or use drugs anymore right. So I was 100% convinced I'd have
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  1/3 dimensional solution to 1/4 dimensional problem.
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  But so I tried to do that man. And it, and it really drove me,
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  You know, my, my father was alcoholic and I think another
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  driver for me was trying to bring joy into a household that
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  was not joyful. And that's not to say I wasn't
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  loved. And my parents didn't try to do
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  their best by me and my sister. It's just, it was a, it was an
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  environment where it was, it was sad a lot of times.
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  And I wanted to bring happiness. And I thought the best way to do
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  that was to, you know, achieve great things.
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  And so I tried to do that, you know, and I'll just Fast
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  forward, you know, I'll tell you, I, I didn't play football
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  since I was a junior in high school.
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  Actually, I was a basketball player really.
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  I mean, I was everything growing up sports wise.
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  And then I kind of focused on basketball and actually
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  transferred to a school to play basketball there before my
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  junior in high school. And the football coach came in
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  the gym and I was in there shooting around.
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  And at that point I was probably like 6-5 and like 250.
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  And he was like, look, we have 20 guys on the team.
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  You're bigger than everybody at the school.
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  Will you please play football? And I was like, if you ask my
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  mom and she says it's OK, I absolutely will.
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  And he did. And she said, OK.
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  And that really changed the course of my life.
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  You know, I mean, I, I was a good enough basketball player
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  that I would have played in college.
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  Patriot League, Ivy League level, service Academy level.
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  But once football started, it was really it was it was a game
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  that I really just took to. I had AI had an ability for it
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  early. And then also it was the first
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  time like I had been big since I was born.
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  You know, I was as tall as my teacher in the third grade,
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  right? Like all the things.
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  So not only did I have alcoholism, but I also had this
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  other separating factor from my peers in the sense that I was a
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  lot bigger than everyone and I was not like an aggressive alpha
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  type kid. So I got picked on a lot.
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  And I remember when I started playing football, it was this
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  opportunity to kind of like expel all this suppressed
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  aggression and be rewarded and cheered for it.
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  And I, I loved it, you know, so I went to college at Penn and,
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  and went to play football there and became more successful as I
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  went with the game. And by the time I was a senior,
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  I was the first team all American.
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  And and that's one AA level, right?
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  We were not like Big 10 ACC level, right?
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  We're talking about University of Pennsylvania.
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  So it's, it's the Ivy League. But I was still a first team all
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  American at that level and was a part of a documentary called
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  Hey, Rookie, Welcome to the NFL. It was the first year ESPN did
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  it and they asked me to do that. And another documentary for
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  CNNSI called Goal to Go that was kind of following my path from
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  the Ivy League to the NFL. And and I say that to say that
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  life got really big really fast, you know, and my my alcoholism
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  during this time was ever present and ever morphing.
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  I was always trying to find a way to get the spiritual salve
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  that I needed from alcohol and drugs, but also maintain my
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  capacity to be successful at a high level.
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  And so I was able to do it. And I ended up getting drafted
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  by the Giants in the third round in 2002.
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  And you know, again, like life changed in in that moment.
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  And I'll tell you this, I, I remember I was mentioning to
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  somebody last week that because of those documentaries, I have
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  the footage of, of me getting the call when I got drafted by
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  the Giants. And what's really sad about it
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  is that I was actually basically, I was passed out on
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  the couch. You know, I was, I was high the
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  whole time and I got roused by the call And you can see me
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  like, you know, you can see me sleep and, and you know, great
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  excuse. I'm tired and it's been a long
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  process and all this stuff, but really I was loaded, man.
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  And so that was kind of the masquerade, right?
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  And and me and you talking now, I'll tell you this is that while
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  I was training for the draft, what happens when you get when
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  you get to that level is like, I remember for me what happened
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  was my senior at college, the fourth game of the season when
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  we're playing Columbia at Columbia.
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  I walk off the field after the game and a guy in a suit comes
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  up to me and hands me a business card and says I'm an agent.
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  And I think you got a chance to GoPro and I would love to
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  represent you. And that had never happened
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  before. And from there it exploded.
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  And so once I hired an agent, they send you basically to train
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  in the skill set required to be successful, your pro day, your
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  40 yard dash, your shuttle, your vertical, your bench.
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  And I and he did that and I went to a a speed and strength
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  training school and I ended up injuring my back while I was
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  there. Can I ask you a question, a
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  backup question? If you're in college before NIL
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  and you and you hire an agent, what does that look like in
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  terms of monetary, you know, transaction?
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  Well, they're just, they're paying for everything with the
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  expectation that you're going to reimburse them with the
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  percentage of your contract that comes.
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  So I think it's a guessing game for them a little bit now.
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  I, I don't, I can't even imagine what it looks like now, you
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  know, but so, yeah, so I, I do that and I, I injured my back
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  and, you know, basically what we came to realize was that I had
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  herniated a disc and my agent was like, look, we have two
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  options. One, we disclose you don't get
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  drafted and we pay for the surgery and then have to try to
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  get you signed as a free agent the next year.
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  Or you push through, take some painkillers, push through as
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  long as you can, get drafted as high as you can.
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  And then once they've been invested in you and like, it
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  gets bad enough that you need surgery, then you can raise the
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  white flag and, and get the surgery.
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  And, but I remember that being the first time in my life
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  walking through that, where I was like carrying like a big
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  fraudulent. I felt very fraudulent, you
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  know, right. And I think that comes to all of
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  us that end up in, in, in this space of like requiring some
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  semblance of treatment for our alcoholism, that there's a
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  period of time where we feel like real fraudulent in our
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  behavior and actions. And, and that was the first time
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  I felt that way. And I remember it was my, my
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  rookie year. So, so that's what happened.
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  I end up, I'm get drafted in the third round.
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  I go to the giants, I, I fight as long as I can.
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  And I finally like take a hit that just knocks me out and I
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  have to get surgery. I got put on engine reserve my
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  rookie year. I remember right around that
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  time coming home to my townhouse and I had this like in my mind,
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  I had this list of material achievements that I was going to
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  get. And then at the end of achieving
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  those things, I would be happy and satisfied and I wouldn't
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  have to drink and drug. And so it was my rookie year in
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  the NFL and you know, I had, I had graduated from Penn with a
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  degree in political science, philosophy and economics.
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  I won the President's Award for community service.
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  I'd been a first team All American and a third round draft
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  pick. I'd signed my $1,000,000
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  contract, bought my first house, my car, all the stuff.
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  And I still hated myself. And I was like, I had no idea at
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  that time that I was dealing with alcoholism.
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  I just, it was just a really scary thought of like, Oh no.
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  And and you know, my, my addiction really went off the
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  rails from there. I spent really the entirety of
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  my NFL career, those four years up to that point in the worst
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  shape I'd ever been with my disease.
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  You know, I had easy access. I had the means to get whatever
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  I wanted. And so that looked like me, you
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  know, just, this is in 2002 through 2006.
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  So really like just just taking copious amounts of painkillers,
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  smoking a bunch of marijuana, drinking a bunch of alcohol,
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  some cocaine here and there, you know, stuff like that.
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  And my 4th year I was with the Buccaneers and I got injured
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  again and had to get a spinal fusion or retire.
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  And so that was like the, that was a big one.
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  Yeah, well, I mean, just backing up, I mean, it sounds like, you
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  know, you knew looking back, you drank, you were born and had the
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  ISM and then found the solution early in alcohol, but weren't
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  necessarily really trying to cover up anything yet other
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  than, you know, you're trying to bring some joy into the family
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  home. And then then then as you can,
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  you're all of us. You're this really tall kind of
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  gentle giant, which even though being tall is, you know, about
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  like evolutionary standards is probably more, you know,
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  desirable than being like a small.
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  But it's still you still put set you apart on some level, but
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  then you start really, like you said, like this 3D game of
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  trying to get external fill of this void with external factors.
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  But then you really had then, then you've got this injury,
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  which is physical pain, which needs to be dealt with.
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  But then also more importantly, now you've got this real hole in
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  your heart from this fraudulent act.
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  And now to cover that up takes even more this, you know, I'm
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  just now kind of extrapolating my own experiences with this.
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  Like, the more stuff I need to cover up and the bigger the
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  stuff it is, the more dirt has to be piled on top of it, you
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  know? And then.
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  Yeah. And then now, you know, years of
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  that and with the injuries and then all the money.
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  I mean, I can just see this being like a, you know, a powder
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  keg. You're absolutely right.
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  And I think, I think that I, I, I didn't know, again, I didn't
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  know what I was really dealing with at that point, but it was a
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  powder Kagan. So when I had that spinal fusion
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  and and couldn't play anymore, that was really a moment of, you
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  know, one of the great things about being an alcoholic is I
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  can justify and rationalize any behavior to make myself feel
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  better about what I'm doing right.
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  And, and I had a really good excuse that like, the things I'm
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  doing to perform at this level are what they are.
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  But I'm in rarefied air here. So you can't, you don't get to
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  tell me what I can or can't do to to make it through the day as
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  an NFL football player. I'm going to do what I have to
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  do. It was after the injury, though,
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  that I was no longer an NFL football player, that I was just
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  a guy with like a really bad addiction problem.
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  Yeah, well, I mean, I certainly didn't play in the NFL, but you
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  know, I totally relate to that because when I my dad was
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  diagnosed with cancer in 2017 in June and I was very sad of, you
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  know, I love my dad very close. I mean, I was, but I was also
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  like, you know what? Nobody can nobody can question
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  me. You know, who are you to
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  question me? Your dad's not the one dying.
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  You know, I can, I can self medicate.
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  And then he did die and then that would have been more of an
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  excuse. But then guess what?
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  Like that excuse was gone and I was left with my own soul
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  sickness, my thoughts and my addiction.
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  And that was, you know, in a way, it kind of exacerbated and
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  accelerated what was already kind of happening.
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  And maybe that happened for you too.
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  But it but I but I know what you mean.
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  It's like, who are you to question me?
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  You had this sort of a different version of that.
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  Like I am a NFL football player. I was a all American third round
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  draft. You know, what do you who were
• 15:39
  you to question me? And do you know how hard it is
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  to get through an NFL season? How much pain I'm in?
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  I mean, I had like my own kind of, you know, like emotional
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  pain version of that. It like, you know, at least
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  according to me and my rationalization, you know.
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  Absolutely, man, I love that you said that soul sickness too.
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  That's a really good, I think that's a good way for people who
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  don't understand what we have to kind of maybe get a little bit
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  of a grasp on it. And I'm sorry you went through
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  that. That's that's incredibly trying.
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  You know, my lost my dad three years ago.
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  It was not cancer. It was it was a slow, steady
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  decline over a period of time. So it was, I think probably
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  easier to process as a result of that.
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  But it doesn't kind of hold. It gets put in you from that
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  experience. And, you know, just to speak on
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  that for a second, you know, we recently we just lost a pet last
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  Thursday. It was a it was a cat that my my
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  wife had had for its entire life.
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  She got it when I was six weeks old and died at 19.
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  And this is that thing of, of what what I at least try to do
• 16:46
  with life is like, OK, so she's experiencing a level of grief
• 16:49
  and pain around losing this animal that she really has an
• 16:52
  experience. She's not lost anyone in her
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  family close to her. And I think this is probably the
• 16:56
  most loved thing she's ever lost.
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  And for me to be able to kind of sit with her and like, talk
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  about what my grief process felt like and be present for her as
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  she goes through hers, right? Like, I think that's just a
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  microcosm of like what my whole existence is about in terms of
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  how do I be useful and helpful. Well, if I can take these
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  experiences that were incredibly painful and trying to then help
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  someone else, it just changes the texture internally of what
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  those things look and feel like. And so, you know, I always say
• 17:29
  to get new guys when I work with them.
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  Like your unique experience is going to be the thing that helps
• 17:33
  some guy who walks in the rooms. You don't know who it's going to
• 17:35
  be. But like if it hasn't happened
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  yet, I'm sure somewhere along the way there's going to be a
• 17:40
  newcomer whose dad is going through a situation like your
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  dad did. And like, God willing, you'll be
• 17:46
  able to be there and like reach a hand out to that dude and help
• 17:49
  him in a way that I never could, which is, you know, this, this
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  incredible. I, I feel like that's the divine
• 17:55
  piece of, of, of what recovery looks like, right?
• 17:58
  Like that's this piece of it. That's you just can't put words
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  on what that is. Absolutely.
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  And you know, and and being able to share our experience,
• 18:06
  strength and hope is not limited to our experience with drugs and
• 18:09
  alcohol. I mean, it's can be with grief
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  and with death and just life experiences.
• 18:12
  And then on that same note, I mean, you're exactly right.
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  And the answer is yes, I have had that happened.
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  I mean, just it just recently I had a situation where I made a
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  really stupid purchase, you know, and when I get, you know,
• 18:24
  when I do stupid stuff sober, I'm like, I'm like, I just can't
• 18:28
  believe it that I'm still capable of doing stuff like
• 18:31
  this. And my sponsor was like, go
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  share about it. And then today when you go to
• 18:37
  this meeting and I guarantee you people will come up to you
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  after. And and he was exactly right.
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  And the thing, and again, I mean, this is like a kind of
• 18:44
  trivial version of it, but it's true.
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  And The thing is, if if, you know, I hear of somebody share
• 18:49
  about, you know, they that this guy played, you know,
• 18:53
  professional tennis and he hurt himself and then he is in, you
• 18:56
  know, he was trying to fill a God's asshole.
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  You know, I don't have that experience.
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  But you know who I do know? I know Jeff Hatch, and I'll put
• 19:02
  you in touch with him. That's it so cool, man, that
• 19:07
  yeah, yeah, we could talk about that for multiple episodes of
• 19:12
  those kind of experiences. And hopefully we'll get to a
• 19:14
  little bit towards the end. But I do want to say that, like
• 19:19
  I was lucky in that time when I had the spinal fusion and was
• 19:22
  forced into retirement, I was lucky in the sense that I was
• 19:25
  already in the NFL substance abuse program shock.
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  And so the stipulations of that where I had to go see a
• 19:31
  psychiatrist once a week in Tampa.
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  And it was this woman named Doctor Martha Brown.
• 19:35
  And she basically saw all the pro athletes in that area.
• 19:39
  And I would have to see her once a week and then get urine test.
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  And now the urine test only tested for marijuana because
• 19:46
  that was all I had been positive for initially.
• 19:50
  So I could do everything else as long as I didn't smoke
• 19:53
  marijuana. And I would leave my apartment
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  one time a week to go see her. That was it.
• 20:02
  And, you know, it got like, it was incredibly dark.
• 20:07
  That was the first time in my life that, like, I experienced
• 20:11
  like, moments of depression and like, sadness along the way,
• 20:14
  melancholy, all those things. But at this time in my life,
• 20:18
  that was the first time I felt what I would call that like soul
• 20:23
  sickness on a level that was, you know, I don't know if I can
• 20:27
  keep going kind of, you know, And I will say too, again, just
• 20:32
  to like shout out recovery. Like it's one of my favorite
• 20:35
  things about meeting other people in in sobriety and
• 20:37
  recovery is that we really don't have to say much to each other.
• 20:40
  If we look each other in the eyes, I can tell that, you know
• 20:44
  where that place is and you've been there and like you're not
• 20:48
  there now. And I love that piece of what we
• 20:51
  have, man. It's so special, dude.
• 20:54
  It's like they're just the best people I ever meet are the other
• 20:58
  people I meet in recovery? And that's no love lost for
• 21:00
  normies. There's some incredible people
• 21:01
  out there, but like, I just won't vibe with you the same as
• 21:04
  I do with somebody else who's been where I've been.
• 21:07
  I completely hear you and then and I, you know, reminded me of
• 21:11
  another thing that I've learned. You know, I feel like everything
• 21:14
  I've learned, everything I know that's worth, you know, the
• 21:17
  valuable to me. I've either learned in the last,
• 21:20
  you know, almost seven years or stuff that it was presented to
• 21:22
  me earlier, but I didn't. I rejected it or I
• 21:25
  misinterpreted it or I've, you know, discarded it or whatever
• 21:28
  it was. But.
• 21:30
  And, you know, and, you know, something I heard early and I
• 21:34
  love is, you know, that they say religion is for people who are
• 21:37
  afraid of going to hell, and spirituality is for people who
• 21:40
  have been to hell. I love it.
• 21:43
  And that's kind of. Yeah, exactly.
• 21:44
  I mean like that and I and yeah, I mean like I have so many
• 21:48
  normie friends and we can talk about other kind of deep stuff
• 21:52
  that maybe when I wasn't capable of talking about authentically
• 21:54
  before I got sober. And we have that.
• 21:56
  But like, but the real vibe, you know, is with the people who
• 21:59
  have been to hell, you know, and have come out of it.
• 22:02
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the use authentically
• 22:07
  too. I'm like, I'm super.
• 22:09
  That's that's a very, very, very important thing to me living
• 22:13
  authentically. And, you know, I just think that
• 22:21
  I don't know it, it, it comes up a lot.
• 22:22
  And I notice for myself, I notice in this iteration of
• 22:27
  sobriety, because there was a relapse in my path.
• 22:32
  Doing the work on a much deeper level has enabled me to be
• 22:36
  comfortable being my authentic self out in the world.
• 22:39
  And what a difference that makes for other people, not just
• 22:43
  myself in the way I view and and go through walk through life.
• 22:47
  But like, you know, it's dude, it's as simple as like when I go
• 22:51
  to the bagel shop, when I'm checking out at the counter at
• 22:54
  the bagel shop and I asked the person working like, how's your
• 22:59
  day going? They can tell that I actually
• 23:02
  want to know how their day is going.
• 23:04
  Like you can see it. You can see their fate change.
• 23:08
  And like what a gift that is, man to be able to be, to be able
• 23:14
  to be useful in that way, just to provide some some real
• 23:18
  connection to people who I think may not get it enough is like,
• 23:23
  man love it. I hear you just reminded me of
• 23:26
  something I hadn't thought about in a while.
• 23:27
  And on that same on that note, you know, just asking success.
• 23:31
  People in general aren't used for people used to people
• 23:34
  genuinely ask them how they're doing and caring.
• 23:36
  And you're right. And, and to take that a step for
• 23:39
  one time, I was pretty, I was probably 2 years sober and I was
• 23:42
  at a, a chopped salad place and this young kid just completely
• 23:48
  screwed up my whole order over. I mean, he was just just total
• 23:52
  the botch, you know, and I was kind of, I will kind of let him
• 23:56
  have it, you know, And then I took my salad and went over and
• 23:59
  I'm like putting my little individual pepper and salt
• 24:02
  packets on it. And I'm, and the guy is standing
• 24:04
  over there kind of. And I was like, what's wrong
• 24:06
  with you? You know, And I just went over
• 24:08
  to the kid, but he's probably 16 or 17 years old.
• 24:11
  And I was like 43. And I, and I went up to him and
• 24:14
  went to, I wanted to talk to him again.
• 24:16
  And he was like, oh, my God, scared to talk to me.
• 24:18
  I was going to like, you know, berate him again.
• 24:20
  I said, hey, man, I just wanted to acknowledge I was really a
• 24:23
  jerk back there. And I'm really sorry.
• 24:26
  And I really hope it never happens again.
• 24:29
  If there's anything else I can do to make it right, please tell
• 24:31
  me. And the look on the guy's face
• 24:34
  was, it actually was probably more shocking than when I
• 24:37
  actually kind of yelled at him for messing up the order.
• 24:40
  But still. I mean, but The thing is, you
• 24:41
  know, that was hopefully good for him and it was certainly
• 24:44
  good for me, and I think it was good for the universe.
• 24:47
  I love that last little piece you added there.
• 24:48
  Good for the universe. I believe in that, man.
• 24:51
  I believe that energy put out is like what comes back and that,
• 24:54
  yeah, I think there's no question to me, man.
• 24:57
  He's got he'll he probably still remembers that.
• 25:00
  And like, especially in those formative years, you know, that
• 25:04
  I, yeah, it's, it's impossible to overstate the impact of
• 25:07
  things like that. And so let's see, I'm going to
• 25:12
  see her once a week. I end up overdosing, end up in
• 25:16
  Tampa General Hospital. Now, I had tried to detox myself
• 25:19
  previous times and I had grand Mal seizures and just tell you
• 25:22
  like the depths of my alcoholism and my capacity to like be
• 25:25
  dishonest about it or like unwilling to share that truth of
• 25:28
  myself. I had had grand Mal seizures.
• 25:31
  I ended up getting diagnosed epileptic being put on this drug
• 25:36
  called Depakote, having my license taken for six months and
• 25:41
  living that BS because I was too afraid to go.
• 25:44
  Actually he those seizures were result of me trying to detox and
• 25:49
  you know, I don't actually have epilepsy.
• 25:52
  No, I'll take this drug for like 5 years, not drive for six
• 25:56
  months, whatever it takes to like maintain the cover.
• 26:02
  So I, I'd overdose. I'm in the hospital, she comes
• 26:05
  and sees me and she's basically like, look, you've had seizures
• 26:07
  before. You need to get help, go to this
• 26:10
  place and detox for a couple weeks and then do whatever you
• 26:14
  want to do. And that's what ended up getting
• 26:17
  me on a plane to north Louisiana to go to treatment.
• 26:22
  And that's what really, I mean, again, that was, that was
• 26:25
  another, another piece of life that was like kind of luck of
• 26:29
  the draw transformative for me, right?
• 26:33
  I didn't know what treatment looked like.
• 26:35
  I thought it was going to be like 1 Flew Over the Cuckoo's
• 26:37
  Nest and everyone can wink gowns drooling on themselves.
• 26:41
  And, and I got to this place and I experienced what we had just
• 26:44
  talked about. I, I, there were people there
• 26:46
  like me. And it was the first time I'd
• 26:48
  ever been surrounded by people like me.
• 26:52
  And what a relief it was, man. It was, it was so powerful, you
• 26:57
  know, and I ended up sticking around, you know, and I got to
• 26:59
  that two week mark and I, the whole time I was there, I was
• 27:02
  telling everyone I was leaving after two weeks.
• 27:04
  And I got to the end of that two week mark.
• 27:05
  And this guy who had been there a couple weeks, he had just
• 27:08
  gotten his 30 day trip and he came to me and we'd become
• 27:11
  close. He had actually committed
• 27:13
  vehicular manslaughter under the influence of benzos and was, you
• 27:17
  know, in treatment before trial. So he knew he was going to
• 27:20
  prison for a long time. And he was like, look, I don't
• 27:23
  know what's happening, but if you just stick around a little
• 27:27
  bit longer because like something's starting to happen
• 27:29
  to me, that's different. And I think you like, you should
• 27:32
  try and see if you can get there.
• 27:34
  And I was like, that's. Amazing.
• 27:36
  OK. Like I didn't really have
• 27:38
  anything to go back to. I had an apartment in Tampa, but
• 27:40
  my career there was done. What the heck, you know, why
• 27:44
  not? And, and sure enough, I, I stuck
• 27:46
  around and got to that 30 days and, and there was no like
• 27:48
  drastic light bulb moment for me then or really ever in early
• 27:52
  sobriety, right? It was just that like at 30
• 27:54
  days, I did notice that I was starting to be capable of making
• 27:58
  eye contact with other human beings again.
• 28:01
  It was that base. Yeah, that's part.
• 28:03
  That's one of the promises, you know.
• 28:06
  You know, and I think about. Fear of people and of economic
• 28:09
  insecurity leaving us at that. That's that's what it's all
• 28:11
  about, being able to look, look the world in the eye.
• 28:13
  That's it. I love that you said that too,
• 28:16
  'cause I get really annoyed when people are in the rooms and they
• 28:18
  talk about the promises coming true and it's all material stuff
• 28:22
  and I'm like, no, dude, that's not what they're talking about,
• 28:24
  dude. You know?
• 28:27
  So, yeah, I stayed at that treatment center 104 days, moved
• 28:30
  into a halfway house there, all the things, got my first sober
• 28:34
  job. So I got my little job as a
• 28:36
  customer service associate at the Movie Gallery in Rayville,
• 28:38
  LA And so I always tell, like, new guys that they're giving me
• 28:44
  stuff about, like, taking a sober job and it's like beneath
• 28:46
  them or whatever that is. I'm like, dude, I was a left
• 28:48
  tackle for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, and then I was a
• 28:51
  service associate at the Movie Gallery in Rayville, LA, OK?
• 28:55
  That's awesome. Yeah, it was great and I loved
• 28:57
  it, man. I found I found like I really
• 29:01
  enjoyed people and I wanted to sell more discount movie cars
• 29:05
  than anybody working there. And if you wanted to ask me when
• 29:08
  in The Little Mermaid such and such happened, I wanted to know
• 29:11
  the answer. So I could tell you, you know,
• 29:13
  I, I, I just was like falling in love with being alive and being
• 29:16
  a part of again, working the steps with my sponsor, right,
• 29:20
  like doing the deal. And then they came and said,
• 29:24
  Hey, have you ever thought about doing business development in
• 29:27
  treatment? And I was like, I don't even
• 29:28
  know what that is. And that's what got me in the
• 29:31
  field, you know? God, so funny.
• 29:34
  It's so similar. I, you know, I went to treatment
• 29:37
  and I, I didn't, wasn't my idea. I didn't want to go, went to get
• 29:40
  people off my back and I for I said I was leaving tomorrow
• 29:45
  every day for like 5 days probably.
• 29:49
  And but I didn't really, you know, I didn't know it, but I
• 29:52
  was practicing one day at a time.
• 29:54
  Even then I didn't know it, but I, but I honestly, like, I got
• 29:57
  there. I got on my knees and I got
• 29:58
  there. Everybody was so nice and
• 30:00
  welcoming and I was like, OK, this isn't so bad.
• 30:02
  When I got to my room and saw my, you know, my roommate's bed
• 30:06
  that was 2 feet for mine with all his clothes stacked on it.
• 30:09
  And I got on my knees and wept and just said, God, what have
• 30:13
  you done to me? And then, then I moped around
• 30:15
  for five days saying, I'm leaving tomorrow, I'm leaving
• 30:17
  tomorrow, I'm leaving tomorrow. And then I was like, you know
• 30:20
  what, I'm not going to leave. What can I do to make this go by
• 30:23
  fast? There you go And like I think I
• 30:26
  had what happened to me? What happened to your benzo
• 30:28
  buddy in your treatment center is like, I just I mean, I
• 30:32
  started participating. I thought about being a kid in
• 30:34
  church. If I didn't pick up the hymnal
• 30:35
  and sing and just stood there blankly staring at the head to
• 30:39
  hope to sit down again. It went by super slowly.
• 30:41
  But if I participated and sang along and went by like that, I
• 30:45
  just applied that and dude, I heard what I needed to hear,
• 30:48
  which was my way of doing things.
• 30:49
  Got me half a room at that treatment center.
• 30:51
  And you know that I, you know, started to feel better.
• 30:55
  And it started going by fast. But most importantly, I just
• 30:57
  like my, I had had a spiritual experience.
• 31:00
  Get out of the shower one day. I felt a voice, felt it didn't
• 31:03
  hear it felt a voice tell me I was going to be successful.
• 31:06
  And I did not take that to be rich and famous that I was going
• 31:08
  to be all right. But it's the first time I felt
• 31:10
  like I was going to be OK in about 20 years, honestly, maybe
• 31:14
  even longer and just came out, I came out on fire for it and I'm
• 31:20
  fired for recovery, but not this job.
• 31:22
  I, and the reason that I'm even bringing this up is because you
• 31:26
  said, you know, what is that about business development?
• 31:29
  And I, I came out and went back to work in sales for a couple
• 31:32
  years. And, but I do, you know, I've
• 31:34
  been in treatment for a month and there were doctors and
• 31:37
  nurses and counselors and techs and cooks and maintenance people
• 31:41
  that I'd never occurred to me that there was this job that had
• 31:45
  to happen where people needed to go make the world aware that
• 31:48
  these places exist. And all, and maybe equally as
• 31:52
  important, going and seeing other ones to make sure that
• 31:55
  they're good enough to, to refer to, you know, and know what
• 31:59
  other people are doing. And so like I just, I, I
• 32:03
  literally never, never occurred to me.
• 32:04
  This was a job. And all of a sudden I was
• 32:05
  presented with an opportunity to work in the field.
• 32:07
  And I just kind of took a little bit of a leap of faith.
• 32:10
  I was like, you know, I'm, I love talking about recovery and
• 32:12
  I do have a sales background. I like talking to people and
• 32:14
  traveling, and here we are. You know, it's awesome, It's
• 32:18
  crazy, it's awesome. It's a it, yeah, it is crazy.
• 32:21
  And it's, it's so neat. And yeah, I mean, I love, I find
• 32:26
  that right? Like I find a lot of times for
• 32:28
  whatever reason, the, the deeper connections I make with people
• 32:33
  end up, we end up having like these incredible similarities in
• 32:36
  our, in our journeys in our past, right?
• 32:38
  Like, you know, I'm listening to you talk and I'm like, yeah,
• 32:42
  this guy, you're a genuine human being, right?
• 32:46
  And like that to me, I notice my capacity to be honest with
• 32:51
  myself and others presents me with an opportunity to be more
• 32:53
  authentic version of myself. And as a result, I'm then
• 32:56
  connected to other people that are the same.
• 32:59
  And, and I love that man, you know, So kudos.
• 33:01
  I'm so glad you found your way into the space, man.
• 33:04
  Well, you too, man, and I remember meeting you that day in
• 33:06
  Atlanta and then I've I've you know what time I heard you, but
• 33:09
  I'm so glad to have been reconnected with you in Seattle.
• 33:11
  So cool. And now you're working with, you
• 33:13
  know, you're I think you're the you'll be the first person on
• 33:16
  our podcast. We've done like, I don't know if
• 33:19
  like we're probably at 160. You know, we've done one a week
• 33:22
  for 2 1/2 years basically who are from the same organization,
• 33:27
  you and Andrew who was on here recently.
• 33:30
  And those guys are great. And you know, it's, it also
• 33:32
  helps to work for great places, you know, that I feel great
• 33:36
  talking about and, you know, bringing people to see and
• 33:40
  bringing people into treatment and all that.
• 33:42
  That certainly, certainly helps. I wanted to ask you one thing,
• 33:45
  though, in my cursory research. And again, I didn't want to talk
• 33:48
  too much before and I didn't want to do too much research,
• 33:50
  but I see that you're also an artist.
• 33:53
  Will you tell us about that? Yeah, Yeah.
• 33:56
  You know, I think I, I took a painting class.
• 33:59
  I'm always interested. I was always interested in like
• 34:02
  in the arts, so to speak. I don't know why.
• 34:05
  I was just drawn to it from from an early age.
• 34:08
  And I remember I was a junior in high school and I took my first
• 34:11
  painting class and we had to pick like an old masters
• 34:15
  painting and copy it. And I picked this painting by
• 34:18
  Francisco de Goya called Saturn Devouring His Son.
• 34:22
  It's this incredible painting, really.
• 34:24
  I would suggest everyone look it up.
• 34:26
  I mean, it's pretty. It's a gigantic Saturn, you
• 34:30
  know, God biting the head off his kid, which is pretty dark,
• 34:38
  fair. But it's a beautiful piece of
• 34:39
  work. And so in doing that, I started
• 34:42
  to like dig a little further into that space and really fell
• 34:48
  in love with modern American art from like 1940 to like 1970.
• 34:54
  So you're talking like abstract expressionism.
• 34:57
  That's like Jackson Pollock, Andy Warhol, Mark Rothko,
• 35:00
  Ellsworth Kelly, like Clifford. Still, these are the artists
• 35:04
  that I, I love. And that that era, right?
• 35:05
  It was the first real American painting that existed was that
• 35:11
  time. And I just got drawn to it.
• 35:13
  And then then I started making work and really just behind the
• 35:19
  scenes, right? Like I would just paint stuff
• 35:20
  because I liked it. And when I was down in Louisiana
• 35:25
  after I'd gotten sober, I didn't know if I'd ever be able to
• 35:28
  like, make art again sober. And I bought this house and I
• 35:32
  had like a, like a, an outbuilding behind it.
• 35:35
  And I turned that into a studio and I started painting again.
• 35:38
  And then I started showing. And it was the first time I'd
• 35:40
  ever really shown. And that was a cool experience
• 35:47
  and just kept on from there really.
• 35:50
  You know, I still do. I, I, I kind of am a little fazy
• 35:52
  with it. I really, I do it because I love
• 35:54
  it. But like, right now I've got
• 35:56
  probably like 15-5 foot by 6 foot canvases that I've painted
• 36:02
  in the outbuilding behind my house here that like, I need to
• 36:05
  move, you know, but it's cool though, man.
• 36:07
  Like I, I have a few hanging in like different treatment
• 36:09
  facility around Poland. I sell them here and there.
• 36:13
  I I again, I make it because I love it and it's a meditation.
• 36:21
  Yeah, I mean that that's so cool.
• 36:23
  I I'm certainly I'm not or I have no talent in the painting
• 36:27
  department. But what I will say is I, I love
• 36:30
  that you, you know, you're like, am I going to be able to do this
• 36:32
  sober? It's like another one of those
• 36:35
  myths were like, how am I possibly going to be able to do
• 36:37
  anything creative sober? It's such a illusion, you know,
• 36:40
  I mean, I was afraid of doing anything sober.
• 36:43
  And of course, you know, I've done all the stuff I was afraid
• 36:45
  I wouldn't be able to do sober. I've done all.
• 36:47
  It's always better. But, you know, I, I discovered
• 36:50
  this thing in early recovery called The Artist's Way, which
• 36:55
  is written by a woman named Julia Cameron.
• 36:57
  You know about that and it's like a she's a 12 step person
• 36:59
  open about it and it's 12 chapters and to re you know,
• 37:02
  reignite our inner artists. And I've I've gone I've gone
• 37:05
  through that twice and you know, I again, no talent, but I was it
• 37:09
  was one of those things. I was just kind of willing to do
• 37:10
  it. You know, I mean I did I was I
• 37:12
  did write a little professionally in my early
• 37:14
  career days and all that. And so I just don't ever want to
• 37:16
  totally lose that. And like, you know, it's but
• 37:19
  just the reason I the myth that we can't do this stuff, that
• 37:23
  we're not creative unless we're drunk or high, is ridiculous.
• 37:27
  It is, it is and and really like take it to even like the the
• 37:31
  acting world, right, Like, you know, I got to have some
• 37:35
  experience there and and I noticed like there's a lot of
• 37:39
  like very well known Tom Hardy, you know, Yep, guy got sober in
• 37:44
  the midst of his acting career. Fear of I'm not going to be able
• 37:47
  to do this without, you know, great.
• 37:50
  Bradley Cooper. I mean, you know, Robert, Johnny
• 37:52
  Junior. Oh, the list goes, goes on and
• 37:54
  on and on and on. But, yeah, I think you're so
• 37:56
  right. Like, yeah, that walking through
• 37:58
  that fear of, you know, I think when you're off, that when
• 38:02
  you're sober, you're more in line with who you really are.
• 38:07
  And if people don't like that, that can be a scary proposition.
• 38:11
  If I'm inebriated and I'm sending something out there.
• 38:14
  Yeah, I was drunk. Whatever.
• 38:15
  Not a big deal. Like it's just different.
• 38:17
  It hits a little deeper when it's really you.
• 38:19
  So I think that's probably a little part of it.
• 38:21
  But you're so right, I have not found any situation where I've
• 38:24
  tried to attempt to do anything in the creative space sober that
• 38:27
  has not been exponentially better than it was when I tried
• 38:29
  to do it under the I. Mean, I used to.
• 38:31
  I can't tell how many times I woke up, you know, it 2 in the
• 38:35
  afternoon or whatever with my laptop open, you know, with
• 38:39
  cigarette butts and drinks sitting around it and whatever
• 38:42
  else, you know, with, you know, like page one with just like
• 38:45
  nothing written after sitting there thinking that I was had
• 38:48
  the the cocktail just right to, you know, to spark my inner
• 38:51
  creative genius. And of course I just next thing
• 38:54
  I know, I'm like going through old photo albums and not doing
• 38:56
  anything but the the task I set out to do.
• 39:00
  What? So yeah, you mentioned that, you
• 39:02
  know, you the acting piece. What?
• 39:03
  Tell tell us more about that. Well, I got, I, I, I went to, I
• 39:09
  was living in Louisiana and I'd been sober about five years and
• 39:13
  I turned 30 and I was like, you know what, like, I think it's
• 39:16
  time to spread my wings a little bit.
• 39:19
  And I wanted to go back to Graduate School.
• 39:21
  I wanted to go get my, my MBA. And so I got into Loyola
• 39:26
  Marymount out in Los Angeles and moved out to Venice Beach.
• 39:30
  And at the same time, I had always been really curious.
• 39:34
  I just for the sake of like my own curiosity, I wanted to take
• 39:39
  an acting class and just see what, what it was like.
• 39:42
  And you know what, man, I wasn't, I was five years sober.
• 39:45
  I felt pretty confident in who I was.
• 39:46
  I was like, I'm not scared to go in here and fall on my face,
• 39:48
  right? Like, so whatever happens,
• 39:50
  happens. So I'm going to grad school and
• 39:54
  I'm taking this Meisner acting class, which is one of the main
• 39:57
  like acting schools. And after about a year and a
• 40:03
  half. My teacher was like, you know,
• 40:05
  you really need to like, put a profile up on one of these free
• 40:08
  websites and start auditioning. Like, it's time, you know, it's
• 40:12
  like, OK, so of course I put a picture of me in my Giants
• 40:17
  jersey up there, and I got called in to an audition for a
• 40:21
  Disney show. It was a show on Disney XD,
• 40:25
  which was like the Disney Team Channel and it was called I'm in
• 40:28
  the Band. And the episode I was
• 40:31
  auditioning for, there was 4 adult members of this band.
• 40:34
  And like the kid, you know, the, the Disney connection was the
• 40:37
  kid who was like the singer. And this episode was going to
• 40:41
  have four giant versions of the band members and four miniature
• 40:46
  versions of the band members. And we're all going to fight
• 40:48
  each other. And so I was auditioning to be
• 40:52
  one of the giant members and I got I, I, I booked it.
• 40:57
  And so that got me into the Screen Actors Guild and got my
• 41:02
  first experience really doing anything on camera in, in a big
• 41:08
  way, you know, and I was really lucky, right?
• 41:11
  You know, there's people that are out there trying to get in
• 41:12
  SAG for years. I just was really, really lucky.
• 41:17
  And I was also lucky in the sense that the guys I worked
• 41:19
  with that were the other three giant members of the band were
• 41:23
  really experienced stuntmen and actors.
• 41:26
  And what you find is guys my size, typically you need to be
• 41:29
  able to do stunts as well because there's just not a ton
• 41:33
  of work. You know, you can always be a
• 41:37
  big guy who goes, duh, in the background, right?
• 41:39
  They just play the tropes, you know, unless you're Vin Diesel,
• 41:44
  the Rock like, which, you know, I am not those people.
• 41:47
  So these guys, though, one of them was the motion capture guy
• 41:51
  for the Hulk. The other one was the 610 guy
• 41:55
  who's in Mensa named Dave Maddie, who's like, he's been a
• 41:59
  bodyguard in like every TV show you've ever seen.
• 42:03
  And they, they were great guys. And they, they started
• 42:05
  introducing me to people and, and you know, it's relationship
• 42:07
  building. It's like anything in life,
• 42:08
  right? Like you meet good people and
• 42:10
  you, you try to show up as a good human being and they send
• 42:13
  you in the right directions. And so that kind of got me into
• 42:16
  that world and I did some commercials, did some TV and
• 42:22
  movie stuff. And, and really what happened
• 42:24
  was I, I, I was doing stunts more than anything else.
• 42:28
  And I injured my knee, and it was getting really bad to the
• 42:33
  point where, you know, when you're in pain and it goes from
• 42:37
  being like, uncomfortable to being almost like a spiritual
• 42:41
  injury where it's like, I was waking up tired because of how
• 42:45
  much physical pain I was in. And I was just like, man, I'm
• 42:49
  going to take an opiate if I don't do something about this.
• 42:52
  And so I went and saw a doctor, and they were like, you need to
• 42:54
  get a total knee replacement in your right knee at 35, you know.
• 42:59
  Oof. And so I went back to Maryland,
• 43:03
  where I was born and raised to get that surgery.
• 43:06
  Luckily, if you're a vested veteran in the NFL, will pay for
• 43:09
  hip and knee replacements because they're so confident for
• 43:12
  guys. Yeah, So I reached into, I
• 43:16
  reached into that resource and got it covered and went back to
• 43:19
  Maryland to have it done. Now, I tell you this like, and I
• 43:22
  always, I always put this caveat in front of it when I tell
• 43:24
  people too. It's like if I was on this
• 43:27
  podcast like 3 years ago, I probably would have told you
• 43:31
  that like I did everything I could to set myself up to not
• 43:35
  have any issues around the surgery.
• 43:39
  But in reality, I today looking at it, I don't think that's
• 43:42
  true. I think that in my depths of my
• 43:46
  spirit, I thought I had a free one and that I could, you know,
• 43:50
  use around that surgery with impunity and come back and not
• 43:57
  have to give you guys a new date and everything would be fine.
• 44:02
  And it just wasn't, you know. You know, I woke up from that
• 44:06
  surgery and I clicked the button and it was like that monster
• 44:11
  reawoke, you know, like, I mean, it was crazy how fast it just
• 44:17
  was like there. And that started my relapse and
• 44:22
  dude, that went for about four years.
• 44:26
  You know, I don't burn it down quick, right?
• 44:28
  Like I'm a guy who will like hold it together pretty well.
• 44:32
  And that's probably to my detriment in the sense that if
• 44:34
  I'm not, it takes a while for people to realize, you know, so,
• 44:39
  so it's like one of these things I put in like 1 of my fail safes
• 44:42
  today is like maintaining absolutely transparent, honest
• 44:45
  communication with my sponsor in this inner circle of dudes in my
• 44:48
  life. So that, you know, they're,
• 44:51
  they're, they're aware enough of any changes that come because I
• 44:56
  just know myself, you know, So that relapse was what, what end
• 45:02
  up happening was I, I got a job offer to work for a treatment
• 45:04
  operation up in New Hampshire, just because I had built a bunch
• 45:08
  of relationships the first time around in the field and knew a
• 45:10
  lot of people and people knew I was back in Maryland.
• 45:14
  And, you know, I was kind of at this thing where I was like,
• 45:16
  look, I can go back and try to keep doing this stunt and acting
• 45:19
  stuff, but I got a spinal fusion now I've got a total knee
• 45:21
  replacement. Like I need to kind of take it
• 45:24
  easy on my body. And like, I enjoyed my time
• 45:26
  working in treatment. So let's just do that.
• 45:29
  And I really, I was, I just justified it.
• 45:32
  I justified the relapse in the sense that I, I got put on those
• 45:35
  fentanyl. Patches and I just told myself,
• 45:38
  look, man, like I played in the NFLI, did stunts like I've got a
• 45:43
  fake knee, I've got a spinal fusion, all these injuries and
• 45:47
  stuff. I've chronic pain.
• 45:48
  I'm doing it as it's prescribed. You know, no one's going to
• 45:52
  really understand what my lived experience is and what what my
• 45:55
  body feels like. And so I'm not going to tell
• 45:57
  them because they don't need to know.
• 46:00
  And then of course, I throw on like the, the utmost
• 46:03
  ridiculousness of like the Margaret and piece where I'm
• 46:06
  like, Oh, I'm doing this so that I'm able to be helpful to people
• 46:12
  in the world, right? Like, just like make make sure
• 46:15
  the sword I fall on is as big as possible, right?
• 46:17
  It's like ridiculous. And so that's how it went.
• 46:20
  And, and you know, after a couple years, I remember I was
• 46:23
  like, I was driving back and forth.
• 46:26
  I was up in New Hampshire and I was driving back to Maryland
• 46:29
  once a month to fill my prescription.
• 46:32
  And it was a 16 hour round trip. And after a couple years, man, I
• 46:35
  was just tired of doing it. And I just remember being like,
• 46:38
  look, I can probably get some heroin really easily and it'll
• 46:41
  do the same exact thing. And so that's what I did.
• 46:45
  I walked out of my apartment, walked to the park across the
• 46:48
  street, Ask somebody, Yep, I know someone.
• 46:51
  Get introduced to a dealer and then, you know, what happens is
• 46:55
  then I'm spending all my money in short order on heroin while
• 47:03
  I'm sitting on prevention, treatment and recovery panels
• 47:06
  with the governor and the DEA. And it's like you said earlier
• 47:13
  in our conversation where you talk about the more dirt you
• 47:15
  have to pour on to like keep the lie going because it's so you
• 47:20
  feel so fraudulent. And I just remember not being
• 47:24
  sober for a moment of my existence in that time, you
• 47:27
  know, I just, I just stayed, stayed high, you know, and you
• 47:34
  know, when I'm spending all my money at the dope dealers, I
• 47:36
  finally went to him and, and I said, look, I can't afford it.
• 47:38
  He said, well, look, if you'll drive four eggs down the highway
• 47:41
  and pick up my load and bring it back to me, I'll give you your
• 47:45
  personal use amount for free. Makes perfect sense.
• 47:50
  And now I'm I'm mewling for an operation.
• 47:54
  And so it went like that for a while until it didn't, and then
• 47:59
  it all blew up. And that was like a big
• 48:03
  reckoning for me. And I can tell you about that if
• 48:09
  you want to hear about it. Absolutely, man.
• 48:11
  OK, cool. I appreciate you sharing it man.
• 48:14
  Oh, yeah, there's. Yeah, that's the thing, man,
• 48:16
  right. Like, I mean, I'll tell you,
• 48:18
  man, that the experience of my relapse was such that.
• 48:21
  So what ends up happening is that guy, the guy I was driving
• 48:24
  for got arrested and I, I had brought a load back for him.
• 48:30
  He picked it up. About 30 minutes later, I got a
• 48:31
  phone call. He's gotten arrested.
• 48:33
  You need to get out of your apartment.
• 48:35
  I leave, I go hide out and for the next month and a half, I'm
• 48:38
  trying to figure out how to live and, and just like, I don't know
• 48:44
  if I even slept in that time, right?
• 48:46
  I'm waiting for the shoe to drop Now.
• 48:47
  I'm like recognizing the fact that like, holy cow, this is
• 48:52
  like for real serious. And it was September 17th of
• 48:58
  2017 where we had come back from the Cape Cod Symposium.
• 49:03
  And I just kind of popped and was like, I have to get, I need
• 49:06
  some dope. So I drove down to Lawrence, MA,
• 49:11
  which I knew was like a heroin hotbed, parked the car, went to
• 49:15
  the first guys I met on a stoop, bought 2 fingers, which is 20
• 49:20
  grams of heroin. They come a little 10 finger
• 49:22
  roll, 1010 oz or 10 gram rolls that look like a finger, right?
• 49:25
  So I bought two of those. I drive back across the border
• 49:30
  and there's an unmarked in the middle of the highway.
• 49:32
  And I was like, that's strange, what's that guy doing there?
• 49:36
  So I got off the highway and started trying to like take the
• 49:39
  back Rd. home and the next thing I know there's two state
• 49:43
  troopers behind me with their lights on.
• 49:44
  They pull me over and so I swallow one of those 10 gram
• 49:51
  fingers and of course like any good drug addict, I leave the
• 49:55
  other one in the center console. They Get Me Out of the car, they
• 49:59
  find it and right about then that unmarked car pulls up and
• 50:03
  they say, Mr. Hatch, we know everything you've been involved
• 50:05
  in and we think you should come talk to us.
• 50:09
  And like, that's never a fun experience, right?
• 50:11
  And so I get driven to some kind of like secret barracks and I
• 50:16
  walk in this room and there's like 8 detectives at this table
• 50:19
  and they start asking me questions.
• 50:20
  And basically what they let me know was that another one of the
• 50:23
  mules, another driver, had been flipped like four months prior.
• 50:27
  They've been following everyone. They knew everything that was
• 50:30
  going on. They had caught the guy that I
• 50:32
  was close to, but they wanted the guy above him.
• 50:36
  And they're like, if you cooperate and try to help us,
• 50:38
  we'll prosecute, right? And I'm like, at that time, dude
• 50:42
  number one, I didn't really know that guy and #2 I'm trying to
• 50:46
  save my skin, you know? So I was like, whatever you
• 50:49
  want. And right about then that 10g
• 50:54
  finger starts melting in my belly and I end up like
• 50:58
  basically falling out at the table pretty much.
• 51:01
  And so they realize that I'm of no use anymore at this moment.
• 51:04
  And they drive me home. You know, they put me in a squad
• 51:08
  car. Somebody got behind this
• 51:09
  driving, drove my car, parked it in my spot at my apartment
• 51:12
  building, walked me up to my apartment.
• 51:14
  And we're like, we'll see you tomorrow.
• 51:17
  And I know it's so weird. I woke up September 18th of
• 51:24
  2017, which is my sobriety date, to a knock at the door.
• 51:30
  And it was the DEA, the FBI and the New Hampshire State Police.
• 51:35
  And things got so real so fast, you know?
• 51:42
  And by the end of that meeting, they were leaving and saying,
• 51:44
  look, you're now with us and you don't change anything in your
• 51:47
  life. You don't tell anybody what's
• 51:50
  happening and you don't drink and you don't drug.
• 51:53
  Any of those three things trigger immediate arrest.
• 51:55
  And, like, we'll be in touch. And they left.
• 52:00
  And there I was, man, by myself in my apartment, no longer under
• 52:08
  the influence and like swallowing the fact that I am
• 52:11
  now under the thumb of the feds. And nobody knows.
• 52:21
  And, you know, the first time I'd ever felt like that real
• 52:25
  depth of pain and loneliness and darkness was before I went to
• 52:28
  treatment. The first time.
• 52:31
  This was the second time. And this was, this was, I was
• 52:39
  really at the edge, man. I mean, you know, it got to the
• 52:42
  point and I don't want to, I hope this doesn't trigger
• 52:46
  anyone, but you know, like I had written the note and I had the,
• 52:49
  the box cutter under the sink in the bathroom and I knew what,
• 52:51
  where I was going to sit and like, I had it lined out because
• 52:55
  it was just like too much dude. I could not see, I couldn't even
• 53:00
  see a tunnel, let alone a light at the end of any tunnel.
• 53:05
  It was just, there's no way through this.
• 53:09
  But I also had had some experience and sobriety and
• 53:12
  like, I knew that I had found some freedom from the bondage
• 53:17
  itself through the 11th step, through prayer and meditation.
• 53:23
  And I knew I couldn't tell anyone what was going on.
• 53:25
  But I also knew that maybe I could find some space within
• 53:29
  myself that would provide me some relief from that bondage,
• 53:34
  you know, And so I think I, I dug into those practices in a
• 53:39
  deeper way than I ever had in my life in the hopes that I would
• 53:43
  find something. And you know, man, I'm so
• 53:47
  grateful to tell you that I did. You know, I, I can't tell you
• 53:52
  exactly when it happened, but in, in, you know, in time, over
• 53:56
  some months there, things shifted for me in the sense that
• 54:05
  I was capable of walking in this really utter chaos, dude, like
• 54:10
  my life was, you know, I'm I'm it's, it was a real double life.
• 54:17
  I was living at that point, but I had found something, some
• 54:21
  connection to source, right, something that put me in a place
• 54:25
  where it was like, no matter what happens, dude, on this in
• 54:29
  this material world, no matter what happens to me third
• 54:31
  dimensionally, it cannot touch what exists between me and the
• 54:34
  God of my understanding. And like, I found that there,
• 54:39
  you know, and it, it changed my life.
• 54:42
  It really did, because it enabled me to keep living in the
• 54:45
  midst of that. And I'll tell you what ends up
• 54:48
  happening, which is even crazier, is for whatever reason,
• 54:52
  this is, it was 2019 now. So we've been in this situation
• 54:55
  for almost 2 years. It's July of 2019.
• 55:01
  And for whatever reason, this is in Trump's first term.
• 55:03
  Mike Pence decides he's going to come speak at the treatment
• 55:06
  center that I work at. So that's a big deal.
• 55:10
  And so the Secret Service comes the week before to vet everyone
• 55:13
  who's going to be there because the vice president's coming.
• 55:17
  And I'm like, it's over. But I end up skirting it for
• 55:22
  some reason. They didn't find anything.
• 55:23
  I think it was because I was still an active member of some
• 55:26
  investigation that I wasn't in the system necessarily.
• 55:30
  And the morning of the event, everyone's there, all the
• 55:36
  dignitaries and blah, blah, blah.
• 55:38
  And about 30 minutes before he's supposed to show up, they come
• 55:41
  out on the stage and they say we're so sorry the vice
• 55:44
  president's had to cancel his trip.
• 55:46
  And we thank you all for coming and we'll see you later.
• 55:51
  And of course, I'm like this egotistical alcoholic who's 100%
• 55:55
  convinced right away that like this is my fault, it's because
• 55:58
  of me and what's going on with me, right?
• 56:00
  And so I call, I had an attorney at that point and an attorney
• 56:03
  that I only got because the detective for the state police
• 56:07
  who had led the investigation into me became my closest
• 56:13
  confidant. This is a guy who came to me
• 56:16
  about a month into us being connected and said, look, man,
• 56:21
  when I met you at when I started to like coming at you, I thought
• 56:26
  you were the biggest piece of crap that I'd ever seen living.
• 56:30
  But in the month that I've now known you, like I've gotten to
• 56:33
  know you, you've explained this kind of disease model piece to
• 56:36
  me because none of them had ever heard it, which I was completely
• 56:39
  shocked. The DEA had never heard of the
• 56:40
  disease model of addiction. That seems a little weird.
• 56:43
  But this guy became my closest confidant.
• 56:46
  And about six months in, he said, you know, you need to get
• 56:48
  an attorney. And so I got an attorney.
• 56:51
  And so I called that attorney and I said, hey, Chuck, he goes,
• 56:53
  there's no way it's because of you.
• 56:54
  And then I called that detective and I said, you know, Steve,
• 56:58
  what's up? He goes, there's no way.
• 56:59
  I said, OK, fine. Like whatever it was, we'll find
• 57:01
  out. And it got some traction because
• 57:04
  I guess it's rare for that to happen, that they cancel an
• 57:07
  appearance like that. So they kind of asked Trump, and
• 57:10
  we'll tell you in a couple weeks and this and that.
• 57:13
  And they were kind of coded in their language.
• 57:14
  And sure enough, 2 weeks later, I got charged officially.
• 57:20
  It was because of me. The DEA guy had called Air Force
• 57:23
  2 and said, you cannot come speak here.
• 57:25
  We're about to charge this guy with trafficking.
• 57:27
  He'll be a really bad look. And so when I got charged, it
• 57:34
  became public information. It was like very public, you
• 57:39
  know, Now the, the weird thing for me was I was almost two
• 57:44
  years sober again when everyone found out.
• 57:48
  And so I didn't really, I had been facing the internal
• 57:51
  consequences for a long time, but the worldly consequences
• 57:55
  came then, you know, my attorney's office called, they
• 58:00
  said they're filing a charge. They're going to charge you with
• 58:01
  using a phone in Commission of a drug crime.
• 58:05
  It's a federal felony. It's up to four years.
• 58:09
  And now like you're, you can talk about it now because it's
• 58:12
  public, you know? So I pulled my boss in at the
• 58:15
  time and told him and we cried. And then I went home and I sat
• 58:21
  down on the couch with the girl I've been dating for a year and
• 58:25
  a half who knew nothing about any of this and said, Hey, need
• 58:32
  to tell you something. And you know, I, I, well, I'll
• 58:40
  shout her out now. She's now my what?
• 58:42
  PS She's now my wife and we have our first baby coming at the end
• 58:45
  of August. Oh my God, you know, but she
• 58:49
  stood with me through that man. And it was a really powerful
• 58:52
  thing that I didn't realize in the midst of her saying that she
• 58:54
  would stay how how much I would need it.
• 58:57
  But you know, she's a woman in long term recovery.
• 59:00
  She had never known me as the guy who would behave that way.
• 59:03
  We, I was sober again when we met and she leaned into those
• 59:07
  pieces of, of the guy that I was then.
• 59:09
  And like, I think her being a sober woman and stayed with me
• 59:14
  and dude, I'll tell you what, man, that created a bond and
• 59:17
  like a tightness between she and I that is just like, dude, I,
• 59:21
  you know, I think a lot of us when we feel genuine love for
• 59:25
  another human being and we get in a long term relationship with
• 59:28
  them, we'd say we'd like do anything for that person.
• 59:32
  Dude, I would I would do anything for her.
• 59:36
  I mean, she is my teammate. And so when I got when I, when
• 59:42
  it became public, I, I got fired from my job.
• 59:44
  So I lost my company car, lost my company phone.
• 59:47
  It did not end up in the New Hampshire paper like I thought
• 59:50
  it ended up on CNN. There was an article in the New
• 59:53
  York Times, There was an article in the Washington Post.
• 59:59
  You know, there ended up being a 12 page story in Sports
• 1:00:01
  Illustrated. Like I got torched nationally
• 1:00:07
  and I got a lot of hate from a lot of people.
• 1:00:10
  And I want to say this to you now without judgement or
• 1:00:15
  resentment, but I will tell you that, man, when I faced that
• 1:00:18
  situation, I had been a guy who had worked in the treatment
• 1:00:22
  field for a long time and I had never done anything unethical.
• 1:00:26
  I never patient and brokered. I never slept with a girl at a
• 1:00:29
  conference, right? Never did any of that stuff.
• 1:00:32
  And when I relapsed, I was, I was blacklisted by a large
• 1:00:41
  percentage of people that I knew in the field.
• 1:00:44
  And I, I only say that out loud to you now in the hopes that
• 1:00:47
  maybe if this happens to someone else in the future and they live
• 1:00:50
  through the experience, that we're capable of practicing what
• 1:00:54
  we preach in the sense of second chances and loving our own and
• 1:00:58
  things like that. Because I didn't experience
• 1:01:00
  that. Now I have to mitigate that by
• 1:01:02
  saying the way the story was presented, it almost looked as
• 1:01:06
  if I was like Pablo Escobar. I mean, it didn't say that I
• 1:01:09
  mulled for an operation to get my personal use amount.
• 1:01:11
  It was like, you know, it presented me as if I was, you
• 1:01:14
  know, dealing heroin to a bunch of people and then trying to
• 1:01:17
  like, sneak them into treatment and like all this stuff, you
• 1:01:20
  know, So I got a little bit of why people would have responded
• 1:01:24
  that way. But I would also say, like, do
• 1:01:26
  your own research because if anybody had called me, I would
• 1:01:29
  have told him exactly what had happened.
• 1:01:32
  And so when that happened, you know, I, I got a new sponsor
• 1:01:37
  because now I could talk about it.
• 1:01:38
  I went through the work again. I was walking to meetings, I was
• 1:01:43
  working at UPS filling 18 Wheelers.
• 1:01:45
  My girlfriend at the time would have to drive me there to my
• 1:01:49
  shift and pick me up. Her parents bought me a cell
• 1:01:52
  phone and I was at the bottom again.
• 1:02:02
  But it was, it was, it was, it was OK for me in the sense that
• 1:02:05
  I was experiencing this profound sense of relief and the fact
• 1:02:08
  that I wasn't carrying this ball and chain around lying about
• 1:02:11
  everything anymore like everyone knew.
• 1:02:13
  And that was that was freeing for me and doing the work.
• 1:02:16
  Again, thinking about that like 2 years of being under the thumb
• 1:02:21
  of the feds but being living a sober life and your only outlet
• 1:02:24
  was. Not that there's anything wrong
• 1:02:27
  with it, but, you know, with there's a reason Step 5 is to
• 1:02:30
  God, to ourselves and to another human being, you know, And then
• 1:02:33
  this case that just literally couldn't have one or else you
• 1:02:37
  could get. Yeah.
• 1:02:38
  And I would imagine that as awful as that whole thing was
• 1:02:41
  and going public, it did have to be.
• 1:02:43
  It had to have been liberating, as as awful as it was, instead
• 1:02:46
  of having to hold on to that secret.
• 1:02:48
  Absolutely, absolutely. You're absolutely right.
• 1:02:51
  And, and look, I will say this too, there were some people that
• 1:02:54
  I had known in the field who got close to, closer to me in that
• 1:02:59
  time. And like, I will name him now
• 1:03:02
  just because I think it's important to shout.
• 1:03:04
  I, I, I really treasure those people.
• 1:03:06
  One in particular is a guy named Tyson Stark.
• 1:03:10
  Tyson works in a program called Cumberland Heights.
• 1:03:12
  He now works for Circle Lodge. He lives in California now.
• 1:03:14
  And Tyson, I have been friends for a long time.
• 1:03:17
  And Tyson at the time was opening up a program in
• 1:03:19
  Savannah, GA. And he called me and he said,
• 1:03:22
  hey, man, I can't offer you much, but I know you and I can
• 1:03:27
  offer you a job as our weekend tech for 15 bucks an hour.
• 1:03:32
  And it'll get you guys out of New Hampshire and get you down
• 1:03:34
  to Savannah. And you guys can have like a
• 1:03:35
  fresh start. Wow.
• 1:03:40
  So we jumped at that. You know, I took it to Lauren
• 1:03:43
  and I said, what do you think? And she said, let's go.
• 1:03:45
  Until we moved from New Hampshire down to Savannah.
• 1:03:50
  And right about then is when the pandemic hit.
• 1:03:53
  Yeah, that's why I met you when you were with the place in
• 1:03:55
  Savannah, right? In Atlanta, right?
• 1:03:57
  And so, so the pandemic hits and my federal case gets put on ice.
• 1:04:03
  And so I'm basically now we're in Savannah, we're recreating a
• 1:04:07
  life there. And I'm kind of just waiting to
• 1:04:11
  find out what's going to happen. And man, I'll tell you, bro, it
• 1:04:15
  was 4 1/2 years before I finally got sentenced.
• 1:04:19
  And so I try to like, it's that piece of like gratitude and
• 1:04:23
  hindsight where I go. Like, you know, what I learned
• 1:04:26
  in that experience was like, there's 4 1/2 years where when I
• 1:04:29
  woke up and when I went to bed, the first and last thought was
• 1:04:32
  like, is tomorrow, the day is today or tomorrow, the day I
• 1:04:35
  find out I go to federal prison. I was like, legit, that was
• 1:04:39
  real. They were going to send me.
• 1:04:44
  And it forced a perspective on me of, like, maintaining
• 1:04:47
  presence. Yeah.
• 1:04:49
  I just had to look down at my feet and go, like, where am I
• 1:04:52
  right now? And how can I be useful and
• 1:04:55
  helpful in this day? One day at a time, right?
• 1:05:00
  Because I don't know what tomorrow's going to bring.
• 1:05:03
  Not not in some ethereal. Yeah, in reality.
• 1:05:08
  Really and truly, yeah. Tomorrow I could get the call
• 1:05:10
  that you are to report to federal prison, and I'm so
• 1:05:15
  grateful for that because it. What happened?
• 1:05:18
  It's how I live now. What happened with the case?
• 1:05:23
  I ended up getting sentenced. So what happens is I go before
• 1:05:27
  the judge. I felt really good going into
• 1:05:32
  it. And then he started talking and
• 1:05:35
  I went, Oh no. But what ended up happening was
• 1:05:39
  like my attorney did his thing. But you know, what happened was
• 1:05:41
  the DAS then actually like went to bat for me with the judge and
• 1:05:45
  they were like, look, this guy's been sober again for 4 1/2
• 1:05:48
  years. He was a mule.
• 1:05:50
  He wasn't, you know, there was never a dollar exchange to this
• 1:05:54
  guy in this process. He made a terrible mistake.
• 1:05:57
  But it was it was, it was around his disease.
• 1:05:59
  And you know they got it, man. Wow.
• 1:06:02
  And, and he, he went for it. So I got three years probation.
• 1:06:07
  And I'll tell you now that three years probation turned into a
• 1:06:10
  year and a half because they ended it early, because they
• 1:06:12
  knew I was not a risk, right? I wasn't you know, and so So
• 1:06:16
  what happens then after I get sentenced and we know I'm not
• 1:06:19
  going to prison is now like life can move forward for I had
• 1:06:23
  proposed by that point. So we were engaged and it's like
• 1:06:26
  life can move forward for us, right.
• 1:06:28
  We're no longer held hostage by this ongoing thing.
• 1:06:33
  And my wife very shortly was like, I want to move to the
• 1:06:36
  Pacific Northwest. And I said, whatever you want,
• 1:06:41
  like right, like I, yes, ma'am, we'll go.
• 1:06:45
  And so I made some calls to some people I knew and, and ended up
• 1:06:47
  getting an offer and we moved out to, to now where we live in
• 1:06:52
  Vancouver, WA. So it's just north of Portland,
• 1:06:55
  OR on the, on the Washington side.
• 1:06:57
  And we've been here for 2 1/2 years.
• 1:07:04
  You know, like I said, my probation a year and a half
• 1:07:06
  early. She and I got married October of
• 1:07:10
  23, got pregnant. Our first baby is due August
• 1:07:15
  24th of this year. Own a home.
• 1:07:18
  Like have this incredible job now with, with Eagle Creek
• 1:07:22
  Ranch. You know, I worked at Summit for
• 1:07:23
  a while, which was great. And I've taken this gig with
• 1:07:25
  with Andrew and Luke over there at Eagle Creek, which is so
• 1:07:28
  awesome. I just think the world of those
• 1:07:30
  guys and I love what they're doing and I'm ecstatic to be a
• 1:07:33
  part of it. So like life has gotten like
• 1:07:36
  really good for me third dimensionally, but like, dude, I
• 1:07:40
  never forget that. Like that doesn't have a thing
• 1:07:44
  to do with my sobriety. You know, it's a result of it.
• 1:07:48
  But my sobriety is based on the 4th dimensional connection to to
• 1:07:52
  my higher power and really to me believes like being useful and
• 1:07:56
  helpful, dude. And that looks like me, like
• 1:07:59
  sponsoring men, having a Home group, like actively engaging in
• 1:08:02
  my recovery process every day, the daily disciplines that are
• 1:08:05
  required of me, of being a sober man and like showing up in the
• 1:08:08
  world is my best self. And, and it's like a such a
• 1:08:11
  pleasure and I'm forever grateful because of what I've
• 1:08:14
  been through, you know? I mean, this is the best example
• 1:08:18
  of it being an inside job because you were by
• 1:08:24
  circumstances between you and God.
• 1:08:28
  And like, you know, I, I just that I, I can't take, I didn't
• 1:08:32
  know any, I didn't know about this.
• 1:08:34
  So this, I didn't know anything about any of this.
• 1:08:36
  So this has been absolutely incredible.
• 1:08:40
  Thanks man. I'm so, I'm so happy for you and
• 1:08:43
  I'm so happy for everybody in your orbit.
• 1:08:46
  And I consider myself in it. And I'm so happy for Luke and
• 1:08:50
  Andrew and, and Eagle Creek and our field and the recovery
• 1:08:54
  community and the world in general.
• 1:08:55
  Man, this is just glad. I'm glad you're here, man, Glad.
• 1:08:59
  And I hate it for you, but I'm glad you went through all that
• 1:09:01
  because it needed to happen, you know?
• 1:09:03
  Dude, that's it. Thank you so much for saying
• 1:09:06
  that. Like, I, I appreciate, I can
• 1:09:08
  tell that's genuine and that that really does mean a lot.
• 1:09:11
  And I really appreciate. And you're so right in the sense
• 1:09:13
  of like, we just never know what the other side of it looks like
• 1:09:19
  until we get there. And if you'd have told me the
• 1:09:24
  day those guys knocked at my door in 2017 that this is where
• 1:09:28
  I would be 7 1/2 years later, I would have said there's
• 1:09:33
  absolutely no, no way. But again, that's this gorgeous
• 1:09:37
  piece about this recovery process, right?
• 1:09:39
  It's like you show up, you do the next right thing.
• 1:09:42
  You practice the principles to the best of your ability and in
• 1:09:46
  miraculous things will happen. Man, I want to tell you a really
• 1:09:49
  quick story, really quick that that happened just to speak to
• 1:09:52
  the power of our tribe. We were in Savannah.
• 1:09:57
  We had a grocery store that we go to a Publix down there, you
• 1:10:00
  know, you have your regular grocery store, you know, where
• 1:10:02
  everything is, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 1:10:03
  We're in there all the time. And one thing that happens my
• 1:10:06
  wife and I go out is my wife is five one.
• 1:10:08
  I'm 6-7. So I get comments about how tall
• 1:10:11
  I am and like am IA wrestler. Do I play sports a lot anyways,
• 1:10:15
  which I'm always happy to like acquiesce and just be like, oh,
• 1:10:18
  I play squash or like, you know, you know, I'm I'm I'm I'm a
• 1:10:22
  wicked racquetball player, whatever it looks like, you
• 1:10:24
  know, but when she's with me, it's even more so because I look
• 1:10:27
  that much taller. And there was this one guy who
• 1:10:30
  worked at this Publix in Savannah that really was riding
• 1:10:33
  me about what sport I played and all this.
• 1:10:36
  And one day finally, I kind of pinned me down and was like, I
• 1:10:40
  know you played football. And I said, yes, I did.
• 1:10:43
  He said, where'd you play? Well, I said I played at Severn
• 1:10:45
  School in Sorrento Park, Maryland.
• 1:10:47
  Did you play in college? Yes, I did.
• 1:10:49
  Where did you play? University of Pennsylvania.
• 1:10:51
  Did you play after college? I look at my wife.
• 1:10:55
  I'm like, she's I'll just tell him.
• 1:10:58
  And so I said, yes, I did. Who'd you play for?
• 1:11:01
  The Giants and the Bucks? What's your name?
• 1:11:05
  And I'm immediately like, I don't care about the football.
• 1:11:09
  I don't, I don't want this guy to Google me.
• 1:11:11
  Because if you Google me, dude, the 1st 10 stories that come up
• 1:11:14
  are about my case and about the behaviors.
• 1:11:18
  I was, you know, the things I was doing in the midst of that.
• 1:11:22
  And I don't want that to be, we have to find a new grocery
• 1:11:25
  store. I don't want everyone at the
• 1:11:26
  grocery store knowing I'm a heroin trafficker.
• 1:11:28
  It's uncomfortable. And I'm like all in this shame
• 1:11:31
  and like self, you know, bondage of self with this.
• 1:11:38
  And so we leave the grocery store and I'm feeling that.
• 1:11:42
  And I wake up the next morning, dude, and there's an e-mail in
• 1:11:45
  my inbox, my work e-mail. This guy had looked me up and he
• 1:11:50
  found my e-mail and he sent me an e-mail and he said, hey,
• 1:11:52
  Jeff, it's Mike from Publix. I want to let you know that I've
• 1:11:56
  been sober for 12 years, and I'm so grateful you made it back.
• 1:12:01
  And I'm so happy for you that you're still here.
• 1:12:05
  You know, it's like powerful. And real man.
• 1:12:10
  You know, it's like what would that's that's the thing.
• 1:12:14
  This thing shows up when I need it most, and it did there and
• 1:12:17
  it's done a countless time since, you know, So just super
• 1:12:20
  grateful, yeah. Well, that's an unbelievably
• 1:12:24
  perfect place to end it. So I can't even begin to thank
• 1:12:30
  you for this. So I just, I'm so again, just
• 1:12:34
  just happy to know you and, and thank you for being here.
• 1:12:37
  And before we do go, just quickly tell the listeners how
• 1:12:41
  to find you in Eagle. Creek, yeah.
• 1:12:43
  So you're going to look for Eagle Creek at Eagle Creek Ranch
• 1:12:46
  recovery.com please check it out amazing program 15 bed men only
• 1:12:53
  just really we. We love them.
• 1:12:56
  Awesome work. And as far as me, you can find
• 1:12:59
  me at hatch-coaching.com. That's my coaching website,
• 1:13:03
  which I'm doing too. And, and it kind of has all the
• 1:13:06
  stuff from from me on there. It's got my brand on there and
• 1:13:09
  all the other stuff. So hatch-coaching.com is where
• 1:13:12
  you can find me. Awesome.
• 1:13:15
  All right. Well, Jeff, thank you so much,
• 1:13:16
  Jeff Hatch, everybody. If you liked what you heard
• 1:13:19
  today or just want to know more, give us a call on 9196708119 or
• 1:13:25
  visit us at newwatersrecovery.com.
• 1:13:28
  Thank you.